← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 555: Raise The Kid In Front Of You | Ian Morgan Cron, The Road Back To You
00:55:43
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- [00:00]
A
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B
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. And back. This is so incredible and I'm so excited about it. Back for the second time, one of my all time favorite writers, Ian Cron. Welcome.
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A
Hey, thank you. Glad to be here.
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B
I read one time that when you read and you learn new things, it helps your brain release dopamine. So I think any book I read, I'm like, I enjoy it because you're learning, right? But with your books, you are such a good read writer. They're funny. Like, not only are you learning the things, but they're funny, they're witty. There's all these, like, great examples. I just, I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy them. I read the Fix first. We talked about that recently, about the 12 step program and how that can help anybody and everybody because we all have addictions. Wonderful book. I talk about it all the time and it is my first foray into Enneagram, the Road back to you. I did it. I took the dive.
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A
An oldie, but a goodie.
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B
I had no idea. I had no idea that it was historical. I had no idea that there was a faith basis to it. I thought it was some weird, weird thing that people were obsessed with. And I became a zealot immediately. And I'm already asking. Other people would ask me. I'd be like, well, why do they care so much about this? And I mean, immediately you drew me in. I am convinced. The book is called the Road Back to youo in Enneagram. Journey to Self Discovery. Over a million copies sold. It was recommended to me by David Thomas and Cissy Goff. And I had it on my shelf for a while and was kind of like, yeah, I think that's weird. And then we did the Fix and I was like, this guy is one of the best authors I've ever read. So I'm going to read the Enneagram book. And I am sold.
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A
Well, I am honored and thrilled. What a hoot. Let's talk.
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B
Let's talk about the history of it. Can you help Clear up some misconceptions. So my misconceptions were this is some. I, I'd always done Myers Briggs. I'm like this. So this is new.
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A
They came out with a new one.
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B
A new Myers Briggs. But I was completely wrong. There's history here.
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A
Yeah. So the Enneagram is. Its roots are quite, quite old and disputed. So yeah, it definitely came through the hands of early Christians. Right. It has been used by Christians for a long, long time. But it's also passed through the hands of people of other faiths and other beliefs. The modern iteration or version of it that we have now has also been really influenced by the modern psychology. So it's a mutt, right? It doesn't come from one place. It actually comes from multiple sources, all of which have created this wonderful model of personality typing that, you know, just helps people move to the world with more emotional wisdom and self awareness.
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B
It sure does. It's so different than a Myers Briggs. I was blown away. So the word is odd, but it just means a nine. It's like a nine pointed figure, right?
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A
It refers to the Enneagram diagram which if people get the book, they'll see a picture of it. It's a nine pointed geometric figure around which are plotted these nine different personality styles. And it, it illustrates how they are dynamic and relate to each other.
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B
Okay, so the difference is, and you had written about this at the very beginning, that this is actually a sort of a heavier task. So if you do a. I did Myers Briggs in high school. I was like, here's your numbers, earlier letters. Here's your letters. Okay? But this was more like, oh, that's why I act that way. And it's good. And I also think it was like, oh, that's why that other person might act that way. Like where I would maybe normally be judgmental or be like, why are they, you know, why. Why are they so combative? Why are they so afraid? Why? You know, it's like, oh, no, that's just the lens through which they see the world. So can you talk about just like the baseline of this Enneagram? What's it for?
- [04:38]
A
Well, it depends on the context in which you use it. Like, I do a lot of work with corporations and in corporations, understanding and using the Enneagram helps teams relate to each other in healthier, more efficient ways. It, you know, helps with communication. It helps with, you know, employer retention, it helps with, you know, getting the job done with relationships intact, etc. Etc. Now, in a marriage, different set of things, right? Gosh I've seen it save countless marriages. People learning to understand each other, learning to understand what their growth paths are. Because the Enneagram just doesn't reveal what's awesome about you. It's going to reveal some stuff about you that's not as awesome as you'd hoped. And so, you know, it's going to reveal to you, well, how do I watch out for these tendencies and how do I overcome them when they. When they emerge? Right. It's just sort of dependent on the one thing it has in common in all these places is the Enneagram helps you develop self awareness, which is the ability to monitor and regulate the predictable and habitual ways that you act, think, and feel from moment to moment on a daily basis. And. And it is a fact that self awareness is a key predictor of success in relationships and at work. So it's a good thing to have.
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B
This podcast sits in the parenting space. And because so many of these things have their roots in childhood, I felt that that was very eye opening for the sake of a parent to be able to look at how they're raising their children through the lens of this, as well as friendships you had talked about, even on your own personal journey. Like, you were like, why am I doing this? You know, and we. I think we all have that. Like, why? Why do I keep doing this? And so this was actually really a transformative, powerful thing for you personally?
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A
Oh, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I first learned the Enneagram way back in the early 90s, before you were born. And I was in graduate school learning how to become a trained therapist. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, this stuff is unbelievably great. Like, where was this? And I didn't learn it in school. I learned it as I don't retreat at a Catholic retreat center in the mountains of Colorado. And I just happened on a book about it, right? I'm like, whoa, whoa. How come I haven't learned this in seminary? You know, like, this is, like, amazing. Then eventually I returned to really just, you know, a deep dive into it, you know, in the, like, maybe the earth, like 2010, roughly, and then wrote a book about it. And, you know, it has been so transformative for me. It has so helped my marriage. It has helped me in parenting pretty dramatically. I do caution parents about. Against typing their kids when they're too young, right? Because when their little personalities are not fully formed yet, it's best not to type them. But, man, in their teenage years, I can save you some time and heartache just by beginning to have a conversation with your kids about their personality style and ways that they can grow and amplify those things about themselves that are really awesome.
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B
And I think for me, it was like, okay, this one comes, you know, the sort of shadow side of this one comes out when a child feels ignored. Or in this type, this child, if there's a squabble, a squirmish is something. I don't think that's a word. If something's happening in the family and to you, it feels like it's kind of mild. To them, it might feel humongous. So I just felt like looking. Gosh, it just made me want to, like, know my kids more and be a better parent. So all of that is woven in here, too. You talk about even, like, Bible teachers and pastors who had just blown up their lives because they knew the Bible inside and out, but they didn't really know themselves very well. So I'm like, I'm such a huge fan. This is. How old is the book?
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A
2016. Okay.
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B
I'm a decade. I'm a decade late. All right. But here I am. And I don't know, isn't it wild that you never know when someone's going to intersect with your book, which I guess is your story, too. You intersected with an enneagram book, like, way after it was written. Okay. So you talk about how we mask ourselves. And you had this wonderful, fantastic story about streaking.
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A
Oh, I forgot about that story.
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B
I'm sure everyone would love to hear that story.
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A
Yeah. So I was, you know, I was a mischievous high schooler, and I hung out with other mischievous kids. And back in those days, there was this national fad called streaking. And for people who don't know what that is, it involves stripping naked and running through a public space, yelling and screaming and drawing attention to yourself in ways that are incredibly inappropriate. But when you're 16 years old, you think it's wildly funny. So I went out one night with a group of guys, and we were hacking around on this golf course. I remember where I was. This was in Connecticut. And we're just running around on the golf course, like at, you know, 8 o' clock at night, right? And we could see in the distance that there was something going on in the country club dining room, right? Like, all the lights were on and stuff. So we snuck over under cover of darkness and we peer through the windows and we realized, oh, look, they're having, like, the annual golf dinner in this, like, in this bit. And there's like, 300 people in there, and they're wearing, like, tuxedos and evening gowns. Like it's a thing, right? This is not like your local, like, you know, schmaltzy golf course. This is a very expensive country club, right? And we get this idea, the six of us, that it would be really funny if we streaked this meal now, because we knew that, you know, it wasn't a huge town, right? So the likelihood of some parent in there recognizing us, some adult in there recognizing us, it was pretty high. So we go back to my friend's house, which was nearby, and we got ski masks, and we put these ski masks on. We strip naked, and we run through this dinner with 300 people. The band stops playing. Guys stand up and are like, hey, stop the. And women. Well, actually. And women are kind of, you know, like, hiding their eyes. And we were hoping they were going to applaud, but they were, like, shocked and horrified. And we go running through this dining room and. And out. Out the door. And I thought to myself, wow, that was really fun. So I go home the next day, and I spent the night at my friend's house. I go home the next day, and my mother. Now, you have to know about my mom. My mom is an enneagram 8. My mom could smoke in a hospital and nobody would stop her, okay? She is an unstoppable force of nature, my mom. My mom could start an argument in an empty house. She. She was a force of nature, right? Just a big personality. And I come home, and she was wicked smart. And so my kooky Irish Catholic mother, who was not afraid to smack you in the back of the head, she says, did you have fun last night? And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. She goes, what did you do? And I said, no, I spent the night at Jimmy's house. And, you know, we're, you know, playing music and hacking around. She goes, did you do anything else? Now, I know my mother well enough that I know that this is going from a question session to an interrogation, right? Like, I can just feel it. And I said, no. I mean, that was. That was it, you know? And she's. I. And then there was this long pause, and I said, what. What did you and dad do? She goes, we went to the country club annual golf dinner. And I went, oh, crap. And then she goes, I would recognize your bare butt in a lineup. She said, a ski mask? Are you kidding me? And then she, like, you know, of course, gave me what for, right? And my. I think my dad If I recall, thought it was kind of funny, but my mom did not.
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B
That's a such a great story. And you just tell it so well and it's a page flip and I just was like not expecting it. Well, what did you do last night? We were at the golf banquet. So, so, so good. But what you say is that a lot of these personnel, all of them really. And there's these different masks that we wear.
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A
Yes.
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B
Like we're really afraid deep down or we're really angry deep down. And so you take the nine and I don't know, I'm like, this is brand new information to me. And I would imagine that there are other people that are like, I'm avoiding that. Like people. Some people are super into it and some people have avoided and I'm now I'm a zealot. So the nine types are broken up into what are called TR heads. Can you explain that?
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A
Yeah. So people don't realize that they really have three brains. We tend to think, oh, we just have the one in our head. Right. But actually there's two others. One is your heart. Your heart is a center of intelligence. So it has, you know, it talks to you all the time. It has knowledge and things it will tell you that your other brain won't. Right. Then you have your gut. People talk about, you know, the information and stuff that their guts telling them all the time. And so we have three centers of intelligence and they're centered around a area of the body. And we often say that these people tend to favor one over the other two. So eight nines and ones are in what's called the gut triad. So they, they really over privilege the gut. Right. They're relying on the gut more than they are to the other two areas, the other two centers of intelligence, those types. Sometimes it's called the anger triad because those three types tend to have more issues around anger than the other two triads. Then you have the five sixes and sevens. Five sixes and sevens are in what's called the fear or the head triad. These are people who overthink and over plan. Their personality is a kind of anxiety or fear management system. Right. Then you have two threes and fours who are in what's called the heart or the shame and sadness triad. They are more people who lead from the heart. They process and take in life more at the heart level than they do at the head or the gut level. Now the goal in the Enneagram would be that you would have all three intelligences operating in balance with each other, right? And eventually you do enough work with it and that starts to happen. And now you have three centers of intelligence to work with instead of just one. And so you know that's true across the Enneagram. So much of it is about bringing parts of ourselves into proper balance so that we're doing life more holistically.
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B
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- [18:52]
A
Yep.
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B
I was like, I'm kind of that. And I'm kind of that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then, you know, that's like the most engagement I'd ever gotten on any post. Because people are like, it can't be that. But what's interesting to me is why are the wings only the numbers that are on the sides?
- [19:07]
A
Because wings are on either side of a person or a bird or something, I guess. You know, it wouldn't be completely just, you know, if you look at the enneagram, a 7 would be an unlikely wing. Right. But it's just the way it's laid out. Okay. So it's just to say that, you know, we all have two wings. So if you're a two, it could be a one or a three because those two numbers are on the other side of it.
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B
Yep.
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A
You have both, but one is dominant. And so that's one we call your dominant wing. What happens with the wing is that you are at your core A2. But you just pick up some of the characteristic, you know, features of a three. If you're a three wing, its challenges, its strengths. You know, it's a helpful piece of data about your personality style. But yeah, you can't have a two with a seven wing or a two but, but remember this, you contain all nine types. There's just one that is more like you than the other eight. Right. So you have traits of an eight at times or two or a six or a three or five. You know, yeah, you are exclusively one type, but that doesn't mean to the exclusion of traits of the other eight.
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B
That makes sense. Okay, so I was thinking I'll grab out one sentence per enneagram.
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A
Oh boy.
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B
Like that appears to be very hard. So I would love to just a little like a brief overview. This is one of the best books I've ever read and I really truly enjoyed the fix as well. You also have an online test that people can take probably better than the one that I found and told me that I was a two wing seven. I think I just made that up. But can you tell people where they can find your online test?
- [20:55]
A
Yeah. So I have a brand new test and here's the deal. Psychological tests we call right are actually quite complicated to construct so that they're valid and they're going to give you the right information. So we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars working with a research psychologist creating a test that was really gold standard, high quality. Right. At the end of the test you get a 20 plus page report that describes your very specific type. It identifies your type, it identifies your wing, it identifies your subtype. Okay. And I'm not going to go into what that is, but super helpful to know and a description with concluding your strengths, your challenges, all the stuff and it you can be find it on my website. Ian Morgan Cron C R-O-N.com Go to assessment tabs, pull it down, take the assessment. It's super great. I'm very proud of costs less than a therapy session and you will get six months worth of therapy from it. And as a therapist I know this to be true. At least six months of therapy will be gotten in one shot and you will not regret it.
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B
All right, which should we start with? Okay, in the book the order is you start with eight. You start with the anger triad and then you go on to the heart triad. So it's anger, feeling, fear, Triad. I felt like in this day and age there's a lot of things to be afraid of and things to worry about. So that's the order you do in the book. We could start with yours.
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A
We can start anywhere you like.
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B
It's hard to know where it is there. Let's follow the order of the book. And then that way people can. They should grab the book. The road back to you. Everybody's reading it. Okay. This is your mom.
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A
Yeah, your mom.
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B
So I'll let's. I'm just going to pick out a couple small things because I'll pick out some of the things that were like, that are misconceptions. So this is a really big one. The eight is a challenger. So they like conflict and they see conflict as a way to connect. And so there is this confusion because they're fired up with this, you know, challenging conversation. And then other people may look at that as like a put off.
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A
Yeah. I don't know if it's like conflict. They're just not afraid of it.
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B
Oh, okay. I have written it down. Conflict is connection.
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A
It is.
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B
Okay, so. But not that they like it.
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A
No, I mean like most ace I know, they're not like looking for an argument, most of them. I know a couple who are more inclined in that direction, but it's more like the way they move through the world just provokes it pretty easily. Right. And they're not afraid when it comes along. It's like, oh, okay, let's go there. You know, we can do this. You know, they're not afraid to go nose to nose with the world. And so they're pretty, you know. Here's how I would describe eights. Eights have a need to assert strength and control over others and the environment in order to mask vulnerability and weakness. Okay. So they can throw some elbows around. They can be larger than life personalities. They run on 240, not 120v. My mom was a great example. She just died this year. My mom is, was 95 when she died. She had been smoking for 80 years. She was. When my mom walked into, walked into a room, you knew, you knew about it. Right. Like she was a larger than life presence. And you didn't really want to get into it with my mom because my mom knew how to handle herself in a conflict. Right. And she wasn't afraid of him. She had big opinions. She had a. She was loud. She was, you know. Now like I said, every type has a million different variations of expression. But that, you know, she was kind of A quintessential eight. So I don't know if my mom liked conflict as much as when it came along. She's like, okay, let's, you know, here, hold my beer. I mean, she was ready to go.
- [24:55]
B
Yeah. You opened the whole book up about your mom. She says the sonogram. They're like, no, the anagram. That's when you wrote. There was another one too. But you wrote that she smelled, she was a smoker, she avoided exercise, she ate bacon with impunity. You think nicotine and inactivity were the keys to a long and happy life thing. It's such great writing. Okay, so I think that this is like one of the things where the book just shows you how other people might view you. And you. If you look out on the world and you sort of think everybody sees it the way you do, what you wrote. Because. Okay, so each. Each type has a deadly sin connected with it. So you know, something that. That's really connected to what you might struggle with. And also 10 paths to transformation. And then the wings are explained at the end as well. So each type goes through that. And you wrote, what feels like passion to you might feel like intimidation to others.
- [25:57]
A
That. No, actually what I said was what might feel like intimidation to you feels like intimacy.
- [26:03]
B
Okay, I said it wrong.
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A
To others. That's talking about enneagram. And that's specific to enneagram. Eights. Okay, so eights will what. What feels like intimidation other people to an eight feels kind of like intimacy in a strange way. Like. Okay, well, we're at it, right? We're having conflict. We're like debating. We're like, in it to them. That feels like r. Connection to a 4 or a. Or a 5 or a 9. That would feel like, whoa, this is intense. Right?
- [26:28]
B
Yeah.
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A
So we just have to be mindful when we know our type and the types of others, we have to realize, oh, wait a minute. Not everybody's experiencing life the way I am. Everybody's having their own experience of life at this right of the same moment. And what might feel to me like connection feels to somebody else like bullying.
- [26:44]
B
Right, Right.
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A
And just having that knowledge about yourself and other people can just help you move through the world as a more loving, wise, self aware person. In that case, we're talking about aids.
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B
Yes. So there was a similar one very similar in for the perfectionist. Because that's funny. It really does make you realize, I mean it this way, but the other person might be taking it another way. So I think a similar thing about that so like you say, you know, there's a. There's a challenge, you know, and there's this little bit of conflict. And it can, for one person it may feel like connection and for another person, it may not feel quite so great. But for the perfectionist, they've got these high standards. They've got high standards for themselves, they've got high standards for others. And so to them, they're criticizing, you know, your pillow, your unmade bed. And they view that as helping you.
- [27:37]
A
Yes, yes.
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B
So yeah, you, I mean, you could really misunderstand this stuff. You could misunderstand it from the standpoint of how it's coming in and also how it's going out.
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A
Well, listen, right, so you're Sounds like you're two on the Enneagram, right?
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B
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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A
Okay.
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B
I wondered, I wondered about that because I was like at the end, I'll see if he can guess. But you've already guessed and it's only been 25 minutes.
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A
Well, someone might peg you as a seven, but I, I wouldn't.
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B
Oh, I said at the beginning I was a 2 Wing 7. But you could have figured it out from the.
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A
Yeah, I would have picked two or seven now.
- [28:19]
B
Well, why for a two? How can you pick that out in 20 minutes?
- [28:24]
A
Well, honestly, I've worked with the Enneagram long enough that there are just sort of tells.
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B
And what are the tells?
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A
Energies that people, you know, everyone gives off energy. That's not a woo woo idea.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And we pick up on people's energy all day long. Right. We're just picking up on it. Usually self aware people are picking up on energy from people.
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B
Okay.
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A
So twos can be very emotionally over the top. Right? Like very we. The word sometimes used in psychology is histrionic. So it's like big emotions like boom. And very. Their affect, their facial. They're very reactive. Right. And. And they're cheerful and they're funny and they're like, you know, it's, you know, all that kind of energy. If you were a five, you'd have been a lot different than what you are. I would pick up on a very different kind of energy.
- [29:24]
B
It was interesting. I had, I had a woman on our podcast within the last month or two and she wrote in her book that she doesn't like that type of personality. She didn't use the numbers, but she was just like. When people are just like too much. So I mean, I, I totally don't it down. Okay. Of what I had read.
- [29:43]
A
All right. So sometimes this is Important right now.
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B
Yeah.
- [29:47]
A
So twos have to be watch themselves. Right? Am I just overwhelming people with this kind of cheerful energy that is always seeking to figure out what the other person needs? Am I trying to meet other people's needs who aren't even asking me to meet their needs? And it might even feel intrusive to them. I think it's an act of service. They think it's intrusive. Yep. Am I overwhelming people with my energy? Is it taking up too much space in the room? We were out the other night with a woman who's. And she's quite on in years and she's a two on the enneagram and it was so clear. She was a two on the Enneagram but she was off the leash. I mean she was just off the leash and she just couldn't stop talking and it was all excited. They're all very this and that. And she was always like, you know, being tactile and all huggies. I'm like, stop, stop it. Just stop it. I just, I didn't say it out loud but I just looked. My wife and I literally held each other's hands on the table. We were like, oh my word, this is way too much. We just have to pay attention. We just need to learn how to pay attention. Yeah, right.
- [30:52]
B
Well, because you're a four and overly happy people might give you a headache.
- [30:56]
A
Actually I'm a self pressed four and I'm often like a three or seven. So that actually isn't the case that you're talking about a social four which is a whole different creature than a self preservation for. Okay, these are called subtypes. They're not in the book. We didn't cover subtypes in the book so you wouldn't know about them. But it would be a good thing for you to know about. I love cheerful, happy people as long as it's authentic and sincere. Sometimes with a two it's a little bit like that gregarious kind of the highly extroverted, excitable energy is a way of. I'm going to say this. When they're not healthy, it's kind of a seduction. Not in the sexual sense of the word, but they're kind of trying to seduce you into liking them. And being liked is of supreme importance to A2. They really want to be liked and then they want to be liked so much that they will even at times light themselves on fire just to warm other people. They will try and serve other people to, to win approval, appreciate actually appreciation and Being liked. They have to pay attention to their lives. They don't do that. That's not. That's not authentic service. That's calculated, strategic giving in order to get something back. Right.
- [32:21]
B
Sure. Yeah. No, it's very humbling to read your thing. Like you said about yours.
- [32:26]
A
You were like every type.
- [32:27]
B
Yeah. You're like. When you find out your number, you know for sure. I mean, I think I'm like, this explains different relationship problems I've had. This explains. Yeah. Like run running yourself ragged when you don't need to. It was definitely very, very eye opening and humbling.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah.
- [32:46]
B
Which. That's the difference between this and a different personality type that's like, oh, you're introverted. Feeler. Whatever.
- [32:55]
A
Yeah. Well, the Enneagram. If you're looking for flattery, don't play with the Enneagram.
- [32:59]
B
Right.
- [32:59]
A
The Enneagram is going to tell you what's best about you is also what's worst about you. And what's worst about you is what's best about you. It's gonna. It's actually gonna reveal to you those shadow aspects of your personality that are self defeating and self limiting. And it gives you a growth path to stop it. To train yourself out of it.
- [33:18]
B
Yeah.
- [33:19]
A
So that you are a healthier expression of yourself.
- [33:22]
B
That's why I like that each one had this 10 Paths to Transformation. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [33:52]
A
This summer.
- [33:53]
B
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- [34:08]
A
A massage chair might seem a bit extravagant, but especially these days. Eight different settings, adjustable intensity. Plus it's heated and it just feels so good. Yes, a massage chair might seem a bit extravagant, but when it can come with a car, suddenly it seems quite practical. The all new 2025 Volkswagen Tiguan. Packed with premium features like available massaging front seats. That only feels extravagant.
- [34:39]
B
With the two, I realized that I am in the wrong career. That's how I felt. It Says they're most sensitive to criticism. Too much criticism or harsh words will crush them. I have thought so many times, Ian, I wish I was in some sort of a line of work where there was no reviews. I thought that so many times. Yeah, a lot of line of work has reviews, but. But some don't.
- [35:05]
A
Yeah.
- [35:06]
B
So interesting. Is interesting to read. Read all of those different things in there. So with the four and you, what did you say? Your social.
- [35:14]
A
I'm a self preservation four.
- [35:16]
B
A self preservation four. That's based off of the. Your feelings.
- [35:21]
A
No, no.
- [35:23]
B
I mean what does self preservation refer to in that statement?
- [35:26]
A
Okay, so there are three subtypes of every type. There are self preservation twos, social twos, and one to one twos. There are self preservation fives, social. Right. So there's three variations based on instincts.
- [35:40]
B
Okay.
- [35:41]
A
Okay. Just like basic survival instincts. And it would be a lot to go into it right now because it starts to get a little technical. But it's very important to know them eventually. If you go down the wormhole of the Enneagram, it's really helpful to know them because it gives an added layer of clarity about the type and your type, if you know which of those three you are. Okay, so you.
- [36:05]
B
So yours is self preservation four.
- [36:09]
A
No, I'm not social. There's. There's social and one to one, those are two other subtypes.
- [36:13]
B
So when you say you're a four, what you're saying is you're a certain type of four.
- [36:18]
A
Yes.
- [36:20]
B
Okay.
- [36:20]
A
Yep. So I'm. At any rate, there's a lot to learn here. I'm a yes. Well, listen, you. There is a lot to learn if you choose to learn it. But you can. The end. You know, the roadback to you is an introduction to the Enneagram. If you want to go deeper into it, you're going to learn about things like subtypes. You're going to learn about other things that are deeper about the Enneagram that can be helpful. That said, if you choose to end it where the road back to you ends, you're going to learn enough that you are going to move the needle in a good direction.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah. Six months of. Well, just taking the test. You said six months of therapy. So what? Something that stuck out to me was that some things may seem virtuous and vice versa. Some things may seem not virtuous. And maybe it's not really about that. Maybe it's just about your personality type. So like if you're the type that's generous or if you're the type that doesn't care about material things. Or if you're the type that's maybe a little nitpicky that it doesn't automatically on either end. But do virtue or not virtue. Is that true?
- [37:23]
A
I'm not quite sure what you're asking.
- [37:25]
B
Um, for example, so this was one example. This is a 5. The 5 doesn't care about material things. So one of the things that you talked about was that they maybe they're a minimalist. And a minimalist there is ver may be a little bit of virtue tied to that. Especially in this day and age, you don't really need much. So some people would maybe really work hard to be that, where for other people that would be more of their personality style.
- [37:49]
A
See what you're saying? Yeah. So for some people, like for a five, being a minimalist isn't a virtue. It just comes naturally to them. They're just, they just are by nature that way. Whereas for a seven, being a minimalist may be a real act of growth because it's not their natural tendency. They have to burn calories to be that way. Does that make sense? So you know, if something comes naturally to you, what that's not a virtue, that's just a trait? You could argue, I suppose that, oh, that's actually just, you know, one sort of positive about that person. I think of virtues as something someone has worked to achieve versus something that just comes to you naturally. Like a virtue. It doesn't seem to be a virtue unless it has come with some energy and intentionality.
- [38:38]
B
So from a two perspective, if you're a generous person, maybe it's not so virtuous.
- [38:44]
A
Yeah.
- [38:45]
B
Or if you're doing it for the sake of tit for tat.
- [38:50]
A
Right. So here's the thing. Sometimes a virtue becomes a vice when you overplay it.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah.
- [38:54]
A
So right. If you, if there's nothing wrong with being a person, obviously who's self sacrificing and serve. Loves to serve other people as long as it isn't in it. But when you overplay it in order to get your own needs met, that's called being manipulative. Yeah, right. That's not a virtue. That's overplaying your, your gift. Actually if you're too much of a minimalist, that's not a virtue. You know, and if you, you know, if you have a gift for seeing how a plan could go sideways, well, I suppose I could say that's actually a gift. But if you overplay it as a six and everything looks Like a disaster or a catastrophe waiting to happen. Now a gift has become a curse. Right? So this is the kinds of stuff that the Enneagram reveals. It's so helpful to know about yourself and about other people.
- [39:51]
B
I'm going to ask you a question that I feel like is embarrassing. And I'm. And I'm feeling embarrassed.
- [39:56]
A
Oh, please.
- [39:56]
B
But I'm gonna ask.
- [39:57]
A
Love that.
- [39:58]
B
Okay. So I'm like 100. The two. And when I went through the different. So at the beginning of each section, each chapter, each Enneagram, you go through these statements. And it was like, certain ones I would relate to, certain ones I didn't relate to at all. Certain statements I could see other people in. It gave me better understanding of that person. But when I went through the twos, it was like, yes, exclamation point. Yes, all the way through. So I relate to what? Needing to be needed. I would. I like, love to be needed. I would. I want. I want the. I want people to need me so. So that I can come. I don't know. I. I don't know if that's weird anyway, but. But also, like. So you talk about that you give with strings attached. And I would say that that's probably true. Like, I would say that. What I expect, if reading it in the context of this, what I expect in return is for that person to be a friend. That would be my expectation. And I have had not a ton, but some experiences in life where I felt like I was a really good friend. And then I got betrayed. And that was my expectation. My expectation is that I don't get betrayed. So then I was kind of like, I guess I don't really know how to approach relationships, which feels embarrassing to say.
- [41:24]
A
Well, first, thank you for saying it and for being vulnerable and transparent and for sharing a part of yourself that's a struggle. So that's number one. Number two is it's a really good thing for a two to say to themselves. Actually, I don't really know how to be in a relationship because that's the beginning of healing and change. You can't change something you won't own. Right. So that's called coming out of denial and owning what's true about yourself. Now you do know how to be in a relationship. It's just maybe unpracticed and uns. You're not skillful with it yet. Right. So what a two has to learn is they can be loved just for who they are, not for what they do for other people. If you're a Two on the Enneagram. You've never really truly believed that. You don't believe you can be loved for who you are. So you do project that. How can I help? Sort of energy. But it's actually unconsciously a strategy for getting others to like you because you don't believe they can like you just for who you are, apart from doing all that stuff.
- [42:30]
B
Right. And truly, I don't think it was one thing in here that I was like, oh, yeah, this is really accurate. When people ask what I need, I have no idea how to answer that was accurate. But sometimes it's like, well, they like you, but it doesn't even really matter that much.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, look, chances are that when you're serving people all the time, there's a part of you that's quite sad, Jenny. And the sadness that's true for twos, threes and fours. The sadness is really pretty deep in them. And the sadness has to do with not being loved for who you are, not believing actually that you can be loved for who you are. Like, it's amazing to me. Like, I've met twos that can convince other people that they like them even when they don't. Like, they're really good at it. So it's interesting, in the course of this conversation, in the last three minutes of this conversation, is, as I've observed you, and we're talking about this tendency of twos that you have been borderline, a little teary or a little affected in the last three minutes. Is that true?
- [43:40]
B
It is true. And it happened in our last conversation, too. It doesn't happen all that much.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah. So, first of all, thank you for, for being tender and present to the conversation. And there, there's the sadness I'm talking about. I just, I touched your sadness. I touched the sadness, which is I just want to be loved for who I am. I don't want to have to keep dropping casseroles off at people's houses to get them to like me. I can just be liked for who I am. But is that really true? It is true.
- [44:14]
B
Is anybody just liked for who they are?
- [44:17]
A
Yeah. Yeah. There's plenty of people I like just for who they are. And I, I, I trust that in, in most instances, and at least in my closest relationships, people love me for who I am, not for what I can do.
- [44:31]
B
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
So, you know, this is the journey of healing, right? It's part of the journey of healing for you. Right? Like, take a breath, Ginny. Take a breath. Let people know who you Are dare to have boundaries. Right. Learn how to say no.
- [44:52]
B
Yep.
- [44:53]
A
Learn how to be in a relationship with other people where you're not being codependent and trying to do things for them that they should do for themselves. Like, don't meddle in other people's business unless they ask you for help.
- [45:11]
B
Yeah. Well, I liked this question of, is this mine to do?
- [45:16]
A
Yeah, that was a. Is this my friend? Yeah, my friend Suzanne used to say that all the time. You know, she was. She's a two on the Enneagram. She'd be like, yeah, is this mine to do? Like, you know, I bet if someone calls you on the phone and they're like, I'm stuck on 65 right now in my car, you know, can you do. And it's like, yeah.
- [45:34]
B
And you're like, yes, I will come rescue.
- [45:37]
A
And so that's. Even though.
- [45:38]
B
Even though.
- [45:39]
A
But even though you, at that moment, are doing something that is of equal or greater importance than the thing they need help with, and then you disavow and abandon yourself to go and fix somebody else's problem. Well, that's not helping somebody. That's just you on sort of enneagram to overdrive. Like, you're. You're actually being led around by your personality, not by your heart.
- [46:06]
B
This is hard stuff.
- [46:10]
A
Well, like I said, like, the Enneagram gets us some really deep stuff in the. In the. In our behavior and in our motivations. Like, all of us should do motive checks, regular motive checks. Right? So, like, for example, let's say you find yourself in a situation where somebody needs something. You should ask yourself, is this mind to do, as you mentioned? Right. Or to ask yourself, am I doing this because I'm desperate for this person to like me or because I feel this is what God wants me to do right now? You know what I mean?
- [46:44]
B
Yeah. It's really good.
- [46:45]
A
Just stop, pay attention, do the work, and then dare to do something different. Yeah, just dare to do something different. Like, here's. Here's an example, Jenny. Someone calls and asks for. Asks for help, and you say to them, I need time to think about it. So I'm not sure I can do that for you, but can you give me a day to think about it so that you have time to. To, you know, think maybe more. More wisely about. Instead of just being like, yes, like, automatically.
- [47:13]
B
Yeah.
- [47:14]
A
What if you said to them, no, I can't do that for you? Or how about this? No, I can't do that for you, but I can do this. Would that help you see what I mean? In other words, you're staying, you know, staying in your hula hoop, as we like to say in therapy, and just saying, I can do this, but I can't do that. You know, I got some boundaries here, you know. No, you can't live in my house for the next three weeks because, you know, you know, a skunk got in your house and ruined the furniture. I mean, whatever the case may be.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah.
- [47:43]
A
Because I have a life, and it's not appropriate for you to live in my house for three weeks. Right. But I could give you five days.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah.
- [47:50]
A
Or, you know, sure, you got it for three weeks. You just have to check your motives. Like, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Because I know that as a two, I have this tendency, this automatic, reflexive way of being in the world that I need to train out of.
- [48:05]
B
Yeah. And you have the transformations in there. 10 Steps to Transformation for each one. Yeah.
- [48:10]
A
And they're not the only 10 steps. They're sort of 10 tips that we gave to every type in each chapter. But it's a good start.
- [48:18]
B
So as we're sort of wrapping up here, and I bared my soul to whoever listened, which happened last time.
- [48:26]
A
But here's the thing, Jenny. Ginny, can I just tell you something right now? Okay. And I want you to hear me say this very, very clearly to you.
- [48:33]
B
Yeah.
- [48:36]
A
My favorite. The. The moment you started becoming visibly affected by the things we were talking about was the moment at which I leaned in and I went, oh, there she is. And I saw your heart, and I liked you for who you were, not for all this other stuff you were doing. Now, that may be because, you know. Oh, there you are, taking a deep breath. What's going on?
- [49:02]
B
Well, I was just thinking about how the. These conversations with you. Like, you have these really good stories in your book and in the fix, same thing. Like you have your own personal story that's really interesting in the fix. So when I got on the interview, like, that's what I was planning on talking about was your story. Because one of the things that I related to in another number, I was like, oh, I really relate to. This was about your friend Bill. I was like this. Actually, I relate to quite a bit where you wrote, I didn't know a lot about Bill. And withholding personal information is a classic trait of fives. And I just thought, well, my plan was to talk about you. And then in that conversation, in the fix and in this one, well, we.
- [50:00]
A
Could always do another episode. We could always do another episode about the Fix. If you want to do another episode about the fix, we can do that. I was more than happy to talk about this, and the Fix is a wonderful passion project. It's a book I deeply love and had a ball writing, actually, and would be very helpful to. To folks listening.
- [50:24]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting to me in both of these conversations that they sort of have gone a similar direction where. Where at the end of it, I was like, I'm gonna be sharing a lot of personal information to whoever's listening, so hopefully you enjoyed it. But that's good. I mean, it's. It's fine, but it's interesting.
- [50:45]
A
So, Jenny, here's one reason why.
- [50:47]
B
Yeah.
- [50:47]
A
I'm an enneagram4, and one of the things fours are known for is empathy. And sometimes people pick that energy up in people like me, and they will share stuff because it feels kind of safe.
- [51:01]
B
Yeah.
- [51:01]
A
People share deep stuff with me a lot. That's kind of part of my job. Right. Is talking to people about their lives.
- [51:07]
B
Yeah.
- [51:08]
A
And did you notice that it's perfectly fine with me to call things out in you that other people may not call out?
- [51:15]
B
Yes.
- [51:16]
A
That's kind of part of my. That's part of the magic sauce of my life, too. Right. So. And it's a little bit rooted in my personality style. And it is. It is a. It's not hard for me to be empathic. It's sort of natural. So it's not a. I guess it's a virtue. I mean, it's a talent, it's a trait, it's a positive trait. You know, we could argue about the definition of virtue all day long, but. But what constitutes a virtue versus a positive trait? But I would say a virtue is something that a person has decided I want that it is something I need in my life, and I am going to burn energy in order to achieve it. I think that's a virtue because you had to work for it.
- [52:00]
B
Yeah.
- [52:00]
A
If you just naturally have it, it's like, well, I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to give you a. A gold star for something that just comes naturally to you. Right. And so I would just say that, you know, a fun conversation. And it's not surprising to me that if this conversation went in this direction. But let me. Let me just do. Tell your folks about the Fix really fast.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:21]
A
All right. The Fix is my new book. The subtitle is how the 12 steps offer a Surprising Path of Transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out and everyone in between. So the 12 steps of recovery that you hear about in Al Anon or AA, N A OA all the A's right out there that people go to. What I'm just trying to communicate in that book is guess what? Like, everybody can derive a benefit from working these steps, whether they identify as addicts or alcoholics or not. That you would get the same benefits, the life changing benefits that those people have experienced in your own life. Right. I. What I hoped to do, and I think it worked out, is I wanted to do for the 12 steps, what I did for the Enneagram, which was take something that was kind of complicated and maybe off people's radar, make it simple, enjoyable and applicable to their lives so that they would experience the benefits of it and hopefully it worked.
- [53:21]
B
Yeah, it is interesting how similar they are because it's, it's about something that everyone has heard of but might not totally understand. And so for the parents listening in, I just wanted to say this. It definitely gave me some thoughts about parenting. You had given an example about your own daughter. She was the middle kid.
- [53:36]
A
Yeah, my nine.
- [53:37]
B
Yeah, the middle kid. And for that type of kid or the one that maybe feels overlooked, that's the one where the minor tip to you feels like the battle of the bulge to them. What you hear is a fractional increase in the volume of your voice. They hear as yelling, talking about the kids that feel better when things are neat and in order, you know? And it just made me think about parenting.
- [53:58]
A
Yeah.
- [53:59]
B
And am I supporting?
- [54:01]
A
Yeah, Well, I mean, look, one of the things that parents think, sometimes unconsciously, until someone calls them on it or until they learn it for themselves, they just do it. They think themselves. Okay. A successful parent is one that makes their children a facsimile of themselves. Okay. Now that is not a good parent. That's a parent that is actually trying to maybe sometimes put a square peg into a round hole. Your children are unique little packages and they will not necessarily see the world the way you do and they will not necessarily experience life the way that you do. And so you have to learn about the inner workings of your kids personalities and operating systems so they can become the best version of them. Not, not a copy of you. Right. Otherwise you're going to have a life of frustration and you're going to have a kid who feels like they're never enough because they're not living up to your kooky standards.
- [54:57]
B
Yeah, right.
- [54:58]
A
So this is the kind of stuff that the Enneagram will teach you. Right. Like, stop it. As Bob Newhart used to say, just stop it. Raise the kid in front of you. And it's very helpful at a certain point, if your kid does understand the Enneagram. And I wouldn't give it to anyone less than 15 years old, 14, 15, you know, something like that. And only if they want to do it, don't force it on them. If they're interested in knowing about their person, a little person, if it's helped you and you talk about it, eventually they're going to want to do it for themselves. Right. And. And once they do, it's going to give you a language as a parent to be able to talk with them about what's going on in your life and in their lives. And that is of immense value.
- [55:39]
B
Yes. And it gives you just a couple things of, like, not huge, but like, beware. Yeah, that's sort of what I thought. Because you don't really know how things are going to manifest. And so when you talk about the middle child, it's like, you need to be aware of that.
- [55:52]
A
Yes, yes. So much of the spiritual life, parenting life, everything. Life is just pay attention. Would you like, pay attention? Most of us are asleep at the wheel three quarters of the time. We need to wake up and pay attention more. What is going on here right now? And what does love require of me in this moment to address what's going on right now? So there's not only a sacred pause in the moment, in the pause, we're saying something like. Well, for me personally, I would say something like this, all right, God, you know, free me of the bondage of self so I can focus on this other person and be present to them to understand their suffering or their joys, and so that I can be of maximum service to them.
- [56:40]
B
It's good. Raise the kid in front of you. How do they see the world? Ian, this has really been such an honor. And you converted me to the book. Was good writer, and it just was so informative. And I get it. Like, I walk away getting it. I walk away getting all of the types. And, you know, obviously there's way, way more that could be learned. But I understand the wings now and the stress and. And, you know, all of the different. The lines going everywhere. So I really, really appreciate it. I am a huge fan of your work. Huge fan of the Fix as well. And I'll make sure. I'll put all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here.
- [57:16]
A
Thanks, Jenny. It's good to be with you.
- [57:20]
B
Mom, Dad, I humbly suggest you save some money and shop Amazon for Back to school. It's for my growth, meaning my body's growing at an alarming rate and clothes you buy me this year will be very small very soon. Plus the clothes I love today will be out of style tomorrow. But at least your wallet doesn't have to be my fashion victim if you shop low prices for school at Amazon.
- [57:45]
A
Hopefully this is helpful.
- [57:47]
B
Amazon Spend less, smile more mom and.
- [57:50]
A
Dad, the school supplies you buy me.
- [57:52]
B
This year will mostly end up in my mouth. Maybe shop low prices for school school at Amazon so I don't eat up all your money, just something to chew on. Amazon Spend less, smile more.