← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 558: “I Wish I Had All My Gaming Hours Back," A Mother’s Wake-Up Call for Every Parent | Melanie Hempe, ScreenStrong
00:52:38
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Best school year ever. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I'm thrilled and honored to have Melanie Hempe back with us today. Yesterday you heard from her boys, and today you're going to hear from the.
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A
Mom, the mean mom, Jenny, the wonderful mom.
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B
The boys were fantastic. And actually the thing that really was most intriguing to me, and you said it to me, we were at a conference together. You said it to me, and it was so intriguing. The boys had just gone off to college. Maybe they were in their first year. They just gone away. They're twins. Off they go. And one of the things that they had told you was that all the girls were the same as each other. Yes. And I just thought, wow, there are so many unintended consequences of this excessive screen use that people don't know. You know, there's a few at the top, like Myopia, and there's the ones that some people have. I would say most people have heard of. But then there is. There are a lot.
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A
Yeah.
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That you wouldn't really think of until someone brings it up. And so it's a fantastic conversation with their boys. We're following up today because through Screenstrong, you have your own curriculum. So you have curriculum that you could do at home with your family. You have curriculum for schools. And you also just came out with this book that's for younger kids called the Adventures of Super Brain. So we have a lot to talk about. Melanie, thanks for being here.
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A
Yeah. And I want to just. Just start off by talking about that comment that was made by. By Andrew, one of my boys. And one of the first things he said, you know, we were at home after a few months of school and everything. He goes, mom, all the girls are the same, just. Just like you said. And he said, you know what? I want to find and marry one of a kind. I'm like, wow, that. He's like. But they all dress alike, they all talk alike. They're all doing the same thing on their instagram Their heads are down all the time. Like they're just cookie cutter. And I thought, well, I don't know that that was really eye opening for me. Jenny, we. We've got to raise kids that are unique and different and that have their own personalities and that don't look like, act like, and dress like, and talk like everybody else. They have to have interest. We have to make our kids interesting. And I think this is, you know, there's a lot of mental health problems with this issue, right? We already know that there's a lot of anxiety and depression. There's a lot of physical problems there. There's all these problems. But I think that we forget about one of the biggest problems is we're kind of raising robots. And I refuse to do that after I kind of, you know, our story. You know, my oldest son was addicted to video games so badly that he dropped out of college. And we were just stunned. We had no idea this was a thing. This was a decade ago. And nobody even knew that there was a thing like a dick screen addiction. Like, how could you be addicted to activity? Like, nobody figured that out until it hit us. And of course, a lot of other people, right, that were going through this and nobody had any words around it. We didn't know what to call it. And when that happened, I just thought, you know, we're gonna do something different. And I. And I'm a nurse. I went to Emory University. I have all these degrees. I'm like, hey, I can figure this out. So I went all over the country and I started interviewing people and I went to all these conferences. You know, even back then they had conferences for Internet addiction. I don't know if you knew that, but I started going to all this stu, like, what the heck? This is changing their brain. It's a, It's a drug. Why are we doing this? And so, you know, it's kind of the trailblazer, I guess. You know, kind of lone voice in the wilderness. And like, my boys said, yeah, mom, everybody thought you were a little crazy, but they said whenever they had a problem, they called you. Yeah, so now we know. And. But I had the benefit of being able to take all this medical knowledge and Jenny, my personal experience. And so, you know, if. If you get diagnosed with a disease or something happens to you, the doctor is fine to talk to you, but you want to talk to someone who's been through it. Right? I mean, think about it. Everything that happens in our culture, I mean, even. Even when we have a baby, we want to Go call somebody who's had a baby and figure out how to tell me how does this really work?
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You know?
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And so that's why I feel like Screenstrong is so, you know, perfect for what we're doing. I mean, we're. Because. Because we've been through it and I got a do over. And most people don't get a do over. I mean, obviously we didn't get a do over with Adam, our oldest son, but we got to do things differently with our younger three kids. And so my daughter and both boys that you just heard were raised without a smartphone. I was like, I was done. I was over all of it. And I didn't really care what anybody said because we lived it. We. And we were never going back to that line.
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B
Yeah. It's like, you have no idea. Like, oh, he wants to play video games.
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A
Cool.
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Like middle school boys play video games. You step into it just like how most people do.
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Yeah.
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Oh, you know, I mean, obviously there's more information out now. Oh, they want a phone. Everybody else has a phone. I mean, this is how it was, at least for a long time. And then all of a sudden you start to see these unintended consequences. Like, he's dropping out of school.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And so the boys, interestingly, within your own family, are able to give this 180 degree perspective shift of what is it like one direction and what is it like the complete opposite direction.
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That's right.
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And so your boys come on and they talk about this carbon copy situation. And there is a saying out there that social media is the biggest conformity engine ever created. I mean, that one thing really stuck with me because nobody really wants that for their kid. But they wouldn't know that that is an unintended consequence. I never thought of that. I've got teenagers. And so I just talked to this man named Arthur Brooks who does all sorts of research on happiness. He's a PhD, he teaches at Harvard. He's a professor there. And he was talking about how his students who are in their, like post grad studies, they're in their later 20s. So he's got all of these students and they're really interested. He said one of the things they talk about the most is relationships. And that he's. Arthur said the apps are all about finding someone who's exactly the same as you.
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Yeah.
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And in fact, that's not what you should be doing. You should be finding someone who compliments you and who is different. And that is what makes a strong relationship. And I talked to this man who just was on our show named Matt Britton, who talks about artificial intelligence, and he said that the path most traveled is the most dangerous path right now.
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A
Wow. Yeah, that's a real. That's just a really good point. And with the boys, again, like, what you're saying, the. I. I am so, like, clear on the direction for where culture needs to go on this, because I've got the both examples right in our house. And so we saw what happened with our oldest and most people, Jenny, believe it or like, they, you know, they don't get to go back and fix it. And so what I like to say is I flipped my parenting and I got my kids a flip phone. So, yes, so we flipped it because I was like, look, we did it that way and it doesn't work. And I. I just wanted. You know how it is when you're on the highway and your GPS starts telling you, hey, there's an accident ahead, get off on this exit. Right? And it will save you an hour. Right? Because you're not going to sit behind the wreck. That's what I feel like I want to be. I want to be that GPS to say, hey, get off on this exit, guys. You know, we got a detour around this accident. This was an experiment. It's an accident. Nothing about it is really working. But the new parents coming on, you know, and everyone listening to your podcast, all these parents are trying to get this really good information. They don't know. They don't know. Like, you didn't know, I didn't know. We didn't understand it. Our child obviously was one of the first to kind of derail. And then we fixed it. We fixed it with the younger ones. And let me tell you, the detour is so awesome. It is so awesome. And like, you know, when you hear the boys talk about it, you know, they can talk. Like, they can talk to people. They can jump on podcasts. They can do. They're so confident in their own skin. And, you know, regardless of what your. What talents your kids have, you want them to be confident that it's their own. You don't want it. You don't want them to think that, oh, well, I have to be like this person all the time and this person all the time. And just like everybody on this group chat or, you know, in. In this Instagram or whatever, because that is so stressful. And when kids are stressful, they cannot learn, they cannot be fun. They can't go find fun. They can't be innovative they can't create, they can't do all their music and their art and you know, all, all their ideas. They can't innovate new ideas when they're stressed. So I'm so worried that we have this whole generation. Of course, not all of them, but we have a whole generation where a lot of the kids are stuck, they're stuck in their immaturity. They are still acting like they're in eighth grade because they don't know how to talk to girls if they're boys or boys if they're girls. They don't understand social stuff and quite frankly, they're a little bit uninteresting because they haven't done anything but scroll on their phone for the last five years. It's very uninteresting. And you and I, we, you know what, you and I could talk for hours because we have all these interesting stories of what we did when we were growing up. I mean, we could go into the deep inner recesses of hey, all the things we did when we were little, all the things we did in college, you know, all the things we did when we were dating and meeting our spouse. But you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where their tapestry is. There's no tapestry. It's, it's plain. And I like to say, and it's sort of a sad way, the world is just very white and sterile. And you know, I mean, ironically, even when you look at decorating websites, everything is white. I'm like, where's the color? Like where is the color in our kids lives? And that's where I really want to motivate parents. I want to inspire parents to just take that detour. It's going to save you a lot of pain, just a lot of frustration in your home. You know, there's nothing really good, Jenny, when you're on the highway, sitting there waiting behind a wreck, right? I mean, the worst thing would be to be in the wreck yourself. And that's really what's happening to a lot of parents. They're going down the road that has all the potholes. They're getting in all sorts of mess. And then they're reading all these books about how to repair the potholes. I'm like, forget it. You gotta get off that road, you gotta get on another road. And it's like so easy, right?
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It changes everything. But you are going to be counterculture and you're going to be on the path that no one else is on or a lot Less people are on, because hopefully that swings back here. It's starting to. But what you do so well is you give such a clear understanding of some of the things a parent might not think about. When you just give them the phone, you just give them the video game, Everybody else has it. And so you're like, okay, we're going to do it. And so the curriculum, which is called Kids Brains and Screens, is something that you could do in your school or something that you could do in your home. This is a pretty robust curriculum where you go through and there's questions that you, you know, you answer, and you're learning the science behind these things, and you're actually teaching the kid so that they have some empowerment to make their decisions. And obviously, the children's book, which actually, actually just came out today, so huge congrats to you. The Adventures of Super Brain is starting for elementary kids. What is actually going on so they can have a better understanding of how their brains are being hijacked. But I wanted to hit a couple more of these unintended consequences that your family portrays so well. So in Kids Brains and Screens in the curriculum, your son Adam, your older son Adam, who developed a gaming addiction, he started playing video games in middle school, which seems very normal. And middle school also is kind of late. I mean, kids are getting video games way younger, so it doesn't seem like it's going to be that big of a deal. You know, we played a little bit of video games when we were kids. You know, video games were around. So you're like, oh, we'll just get him the console. And then this ends up becoming an addiction for him to the point where he drops out of college, he doesn't leave his bedroom for a week, and he writes a letter and different parts of this curriculum, and you get a good sense of what that life was like for him. And one of the things that he says is, I mean, parents need to know this. This is a really big deal. So you're like, what are the unintended consequences? One is that you became Game Cop mom, which we talked about last time. You're like, I'm spending all of my time fighting with this child that I love about their video game time. So you're not expecting that you're giving this to them as something fun, and their friends are online and they're gonna play together. And I played video games when I was a kid, and it was fun here and there, you know, so that's what you're thinking. It's going to be. You don't realize that this is going to cause all sorts of friction in your home. So we talked about that some in our last episode. But one of the things that Adam said in this curriculum and he is, he says this gaming was the main source of my sense of purpose and self worth.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That's so sad. It is so sad. His story is so sad. And let me just reiterate something. He did not really get immersed in gaming until middle school. So he did have, thank goodness he did have like the first 10 years of his life playing outside in the backyard, you know, collecting rocks and frogs and digging. And we spent a lot of time outside. So in his recovery, if you will, that was huge. Because if he had not had that like many kids today, which is why we wrote the Super Brain book, you know, because we've got, now we've got eight year olds, you know, playing four or five hours of games every day, right? So. So he had that to sort of fall back on. Because with any addiction, what you have to do is go back to the point in time where you weren't addicted and then you have to redo that stuff, right? So if there's an addict, and by the way, 90% of all adult addictions start in the teenage years. And there's a reason for that, why that happens. But you know, if you have a friend that is in, that's 30 years old and they're an alcoholic and they go through treatment and they finally get better, they part of their treatment is they have to go back in to the point in time when they became addicted and they have to redo those life skills and those milestones because they missed them. And this is what's happening in our culture. And we're labeling all this stuff labels that shouldn't be labeled. We're misdiagnosing everything. We're saying that kids have anxiety and we're giving them meds and then we're giving them more video games because they have anxiety and they think that calms them down. And none of that works. We got, we got everything flipped. It's all wrong. We've just completely flipped the apple cart. And now we're like, oh, what's happening to all our kids? Well, it's really easy. They're getting addicted. Let me say this, Jenny. The other thing is when you and I or my brother went out to the arcade to play Pac man, you know, years ago when we were in school, we went to the arcade or we Went even, even some of the lower, the, the less powerful, you know, weaker video games that we played, they're nothing like that today. And this was my biggest mess with Adam. I had no idea what he was playing because I didn't play. And I thought, oh, it's Pac Man. He wasn't playing Pac Man. He wasn't playing anything like that. So this is why in our curriculum, it is so important that we. What we wanted to do is explain to kids what is really happening and explain to parents, this isn't Pac Man. So that's the first thing. That's the first big mess out there. If anybody only gets that one thing from the show today, they have to understand that video games, the persuasive design on video games, you know, the books that Richard Freed has written, everything about persuasive design, all these things is what parents don't understand. And how can we understand this?
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Right?
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We didn't grow up with this. We just like smartphones. We don't understand what that does to a kid because we didn't have them. We didn't grow up with it. Now we're having to use our kids and experiment. Adam was a big experiment. And how sad. It's something I grieve all the time. Because you don't want to do an experimental drug on your kids, right? You don't want to do that. I mean, I didn't know I was doing that. I had no clue what was happening. At least in a drug trial, you know what you're doing. I had no idea. You know, even in school, I don't know if you remember this back in the day. I don't know if they probably still don't do it now, but the teachers were telling us that a Game Boy was good for their hand eye coordination. Are you kidding me? I mean, that should make you just real, Jenny, because hand eye coordination is best learned outside.
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B
Well, I mean, there's. And they're still doing it. They're still handing iPads to kids. They're still ending handing iPads to kindergarteners. I just literally last year went and spoke at a school and I've talked about that on the show where the mom raised her hand and she said they gave an iPad to my 5 year old. She's crying. I don't know what to do. So they're still doing it.
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No, you gotta stand up for your kids.
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Yeah. It's not been walked back yet, that's for sure. Adam said this. I wish I had all my gaming hours back. Yeah, I often Imagine what my life would be like if I had spent my time differently doing something productive.
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A
Yeah. Or even just being outside.
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B
And you have to think long term. Right. You have to just think long term that at some point your child is going to be 20.
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Yes.
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And they are going to have reflections on their childhood and it matters the choices that you make. So there is this unintended consequence that possibly nobody found their sense of self in Pac Man.
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No.
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Nobody found their, their sense of self worth in Duck Hunt or Super Mario brothers from the 80s. But the fact that this is and something that could happen, I think should alarm parents and you should know about it. You talk about in this book how the video game industry is a $180 billion industry, more than Hollywood and something else. Sports. More than Hollywood and sports combined.
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Yeah.
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The brilliant of the brilliant are working to get your kids addicted. And you talk about the amount of time that's wasted. It's something like 16,000 hours.
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Yeah.
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If an average teen spends nine hours a day on advice, which that's what they talk about, that adds up to more than 16, 000 hours from 8th grade to 12th grade. So the time component. Let's hit one more unintended consequence. One of the hardest parts about parenting today is the constant wondering. Are they safe? Did they make it? Do they need me? That quiet worry can creep into everything. And while we want to give our kids more freedom, we also want the peace of mind that comes with knowing they're okay. That is why we love Cosmo. Cosmo makes a kid smartwatch called the Junior Track. And their newest, The Junior Track 5 has real time GPS tracking, messaging, calling and even step counts all packed into one simple, safe device. It gives your kids a taste of independence while giving you the confidence to say, go ahead, you've got this. What makes it so different? You stay in the driver's seat, there's no Internet, no social media, and every contact must be parent approved. It's thoughtful tech that helps parents relax and kids thrive, especially when they're out exploring, playing and growing up in the real world. Right now, Cosmo is running an amazing back to school deal. Plus free shipping and a risk free 30 day guarantee. Head to cosmotogether.com 1kho to grab one today. That's Cosmo together.com 1kho as summer winds down, I've been thinking ahead, refreshing my wardrobe with staple pieces I'll actually wear on repeat. And Quint has totally nailed it. Their luxe essentials feel effortless, look polished and are perfect for layering and as the weather shifts. I've loved their European linen fit and flare midi dress this summer. So comfortable and stylish and I can't wait to get my hands on their cotton and cashmere sweaters. They look so soft and cozy starting at just $40. I've also been eyeing their washable silk tops and classic denim timeless styles that mix and match easily and make me feel put together whether I'm hosting a podcast or out for a walk with the kids. What really sold me on quints is the value. These pieces rival high end brands, but quints cost half as much because they cut out the middlemen and and work directly with top artisans. The quality is incredible and everything is made in safe, ethical and responsible factories using premium fabrics. Honestly, I'm already eyeing a few things for the fall, especially their travel bags and a silk blouse that's been sitting in my cart. Elevate your wardrobe essentials with quints. Go to quint.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N c.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com outside as the summer winds down, I'm feeling that bittersweet shift saying goodbye to lazy days and getting back into the rhythm of a routine. And you know what? That change inspires me to refresh our space so it reflects our style and makes daily life feel just a little bit smoother. If you're in the same boat, Wayfair is the perfect place to kick off your back to school and fall season prep. Wayfair has everything we need to get our home organized and ready for the season ahead. Inside and outside. Two of our girls needed new beds, so that's where we started. And I can't believe how much they've made bedtime easier. From cozy bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room to playground sets, they have us covered. Plus, their huge selection of outdoor items makes it easy to find just what we need to transition smoothly into fall. Whether you're refreshing your workspace with a new desk or making weeknight dinners a breeze with quality cookware, Wayfair has it all. And with free, fast and hassle free delivery, even on big stuff like sofas and dining tables, there's no better time to shop, get organized, refreshed and back into routine. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home, it's this one. Okay, so Adam says a gamer is always thinking about gaming. His world is the virtual world and the real world is just a nuisance that pulls him away from his reality. Everything he does in the real world is done in order to get back to the gaming world as quickly as possible. His natural state is finding comfort in playing video games. And, and then he says this. Because you can progress so quickly in a game, the subconscious mind starts to believe that those progressions are real, but they're not. He says you can't make meaningful progress with anything in the real world in 10 minutes like you can in a video game. So then that causes you to push back on the things that are in the real world. He writes this. The brain is literally wired to think that success and productivity and productivity lie with video games and everything else is a waste of time because it isn't as efficient. Our brains are being rewired to prefer fast paced screen content and all of these things that feel productive but aren't over the pace of real life.
- [23:08]
A
That's right. That, that's that he nailed it. And he nailed it because he lived it and he knows, he knows it inside and out. And let me also just say that you can sum it up by saying that our kids are craving low effort, high reward. So that's why sometimes, Jenny, that's why sometimes getting them outside is a little hard because you know there's a little effort there, right? But once you do, then you get the reward. And our job as parents is to get our kids over that hump, that low effort, high reward. That's pretty much the definition, honestly of a middle school kid in a high school kid. You know, they're crazy. Hey, that's the definition of us, right? We're always craving low effort, high reward. And we do this because this is way our, our survival skills work in our brain. Our brain always will gravitate toward low effort, high reward because we're going to survive better if we're not working so hard to get more of what we need. Right? So it's, this is why it's so important for parents to understand there is a medical component to this. There is a child development component that we are missing. And that is my mission is to get this part out to the public so they can not make all these mistakes. This nothing about your kid. They're all good kids. It's not. And a lot of parents say, oh well, Mike is just prone to Addiction? No, we're all prone to addiction. All kids are prone to addiction. We're all craving, low effort, high reward. And the other thing that you, you said that I wanted to just touch on the thing that he said to his self worth. The problem is that, not that they're not getting their self worth in real life, they're getting it on a video game. So now you're right. Their self worth is all tied up in their game. Well, let's look at what that worth is. Do you want your self worth of your child, your child's self worth to be tied up in Call of Duty? Do you want him to look at Call of Duty as the bar that he's shooting for in everything about him? And you know these kids, Jenny, I know you do because you have boys and they have friends and you have them around your house and they're kind of strange because all they can do is talk about the video game and their world is all about that world. It's even the opening of John Heights book. He talks about Mars and Earth and we've lost our kids and they're all on Mars and he, I mean they are and that's what happens. And we have to get them back. But, but there's this thing in culture that as parents, I think we believe that all the other parents think it's okay. So therefore we're going to think it's okay. And I just got to tell you right now that not all other parents think it's okay. Nobody thinks this is. Yeah, I know.
- [25:43]
B
And you know, Jean Twenge's got her new book that's coming out in a couple of weeks and you know, she talks in there about, she's like, can you imagine when you grew up being 12 years old and going to your mom and saying I'd love to post a picture of myself in a really skimpy bikini. And I hope I get a lot of likes from, you know, some of my friends and people I don't know. Is that okay?
- [26:00]
A
You know, they would be like, no.
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B
No, that's not okay. You know, I mean, everybody grew up with parents that are like, well, if you're all your friends jumped off a bridge, you know. You know, like if you just, you don't have to deal with everybod everybody else is doing. So books like this are so important.
- [26:15]
A
No, but back then we knew that the parents were on our side. My parents, my mom knew that all her friends would say the same thing. But now, now it's, it has changed. You Know it's changed in there. And the reason why so many parents are so frustrated with this issue. They're struggling, they're sad, they're depressed, you know, about it is because they feel alone. They feel like they are the only ones that, that are thinking this way. When what, you know, what I like to do in a parent group is just get real about it. Because nobody thinks that this is okay. Nobody thinks it's okay for a child to even spend an hour, you know, in the basement in seclusion, in a dark room playing a horrible game where they're shooting all their best friends, by the way, they're just in fortnite shoot. You know, can you imagine, can you even imagine doing this? Shooting your best friend in the, in the head, you know, five times a day? Well, over time, we know as parents and we know as medical professionals, this is not good. This is not a good pattern.
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B
Right, right. I don't even need a study.
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A
No, you don't have to study it.
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B
I just know for sure and, and every. No parent wants that. And no parent wants their child to be constantly thinking about gaming. No parent wants their child to have their world be the virtual world. Everything they're doing is to try and get back into that world as quickly as possible. He says that when he, he didn't leave his room for one week, he spent a whole week, didn't go to his classes, doesn't leave. He's just gaming, he said. But my gaming performance was top notch.
- [27:51]
A
Yes.
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B
At that point. And so that was the priority. The, the one and only priority was that he finds his self worth in it. And so when you look ahead, if you're home with your three year old little boy and you're home with your seven year old little guy romping around, no one thinks I hope for that for my kid.
- [28:08]
A
No.
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B
No one. No one. What's interesting, what's so interesting, Melanie, in, in these books is you talk about what the traps are. Yeah. And what is so fascinating is that nature provides almost all of them, except slower. It's just slower. So what is, what are the, what are the traps? Novelty of content. You're going to find that outside. Bright colors. You're going to find that.
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A
You're going to find that.
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B
Except in the winter in Michigan, but mostly most of the time. Bright colors, sense of belonging. You're going to find that outside. Unlimited content. That's outside. Ease of use, cause and effect, surprises. You know, you see the bunny, you.
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A
See the deer, you see the bird.
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B
You see the caterpillar yes. Constant surprises outside. And, you know, of course, you don't get the likes and tags and you don't get notification triggers, but everything else.
- [29:00]
A
But everything provides and. And you get rewards. Rewards. And that. That reward cycle in our brain, the reward area. When Evan one time explained to me, one of my twins explained to me when he was trying to explain how exciting it was to catch a fish, he said, mom, there is nothing in the world. Nothing. I mean, I think he was like 10. There is nothing that exists in the world that is as exciting as fish. Feeling that tug of that fish on your line and see, this is what you want for your kids. But if you give them Call of Duty and Fortnite and Grand Theft Auto and all this stuff, then they're going to go over there and that's going to be the thing that is exciting to them. So really, as parents, what my job, you know, became, after we detoured and got stuck in the wreck on the road, we had a detour with the younger kids. My job was to fill and structure their life with the most natural and healthy rewards I could find. Because you can do that. And that's what you're seeing with all of your work with kids being outside is. It's filling that tank. They're getting those rewards. But that doesn't happen in our culture anymore by itself. We have to be intentional about it. We have to be deliberate about it. And I know it sounds kind of corny because, you know, you think, well, you're the mom and, you know, you shouldn't be helicoptering over your kids and structuring their life so much. And I'm telling you what. Yes, you should. I'm sorry. Yes, you should.
- [30:36]
B
It's not necessarily, I think when people talk about helicoptering, they talk about making sure that the kid doesn't climb too high in the tree. They talk about, get off of that climbing structure, you're going to fall. They talk about, you know, walking right behind the kid when you're going around the block. But it's different to say, I'm going to set up a childhood that protects my child's brain development. And that may look like, you know, we have kids. Angela Hanscom talks about it. Have kids come over for the whole day. Yeah. And. And, you know, you talked about, you have such great ideas. Like, you talked about, you have Friday night.
- [31:07]
A
Yeah.
- [31:09]
B
Yeah. Where you have something specific planned. Like, we're gonna learn how to bake a cake. I'm gonna bring in a master cake decorator, and we're Gonna do that together. You're not hovering and helicoptering. You are providing opportunities.
- [31:22]
A
Yes, yes.
- [31:24]
B
And that matters because it didn't used to be necessary since. Because no kids were on video games. To your point that you said earlier, I've posted just recently something about you got to find other people, right? You got to find. And people are like, I can't find anyone. I can't find one other person whose kid, you know, isn't doing video games. So the books are saying, like, you gotta drive. You know, I know you want to be in your pajamas on Friday night, but you're going to have to put your bra on and there's going to be a bunch of teens in your house and you're going to do all of these different things. And I wouldn't call that helicoptering in the sense that people think of helicoptering. I would call that facilitating.
- [32:00]
A
Yeah. No. And you have to plan ahead, and you begin with the end in mind. And you have to decide, hey, if you want your kids to be interesting people, then you're going to have to put some interesting things in their path because they're not naturally. Remember, going to do this because remember what we said about low effort, high reward. So planning a Friday fun night party with 15 of your friends to come over to your house or even five of your friends, that takes some effort, right? It.
- [32:23]
B
And so it takes money. It takes money. I mean, when your boys were sitting there talking about their violin teacher, and they talk so highly of the violin teacher, they still like to talk about that. You know, they still maybe will go and talk to this violin teacher. They're talking about the piano. Do you know what's going on in everybody's mind is dollar signs and time.
- [32:41]
A
Well, let me talk about that really quick, because I don't know if you talked about this, but we did a lot of group lessons. So this is just a little tip from the Screenstrong archives. Okay? Group lessons are the key. And so they're very inexpensive. Your kids still get a lot of the same stuff. So remember that. Do lots of group things. We would have art camps over at our house, and that didn't cost anything. Like, you know, every now and then I'd have the parents pitch in $10 or $20 to help me cover the supplies. But there's so many creative, innovative things you can do. There are so many free things at the library, at the community center. Oh, my goodness. Nobody knows about this because they're all home playing Fortnite. And because your kids, I promise you Will say they don't want to do it. And you're going to smile and you're going to say, but this is what we're doing and you have to start this early.
- [33:33]
B
Yeah, you are so right. Because the library has book club kids. I mean, you get all the things that you need for the book club. We went yesterday. My brother is in town and. And you know, we're trying to figure out what to do. It's 90 degrees here in Michigan. It's the middle of the summer. And we had recently, just like a week, week or two ago, we took some kids, we went to the water park, which seems like that's a great thing to facilitate, but it is expensive and people did not really have that good of a time. It is constructed for you. Right. It's like the waves go. So we went to this place near us. It's called the Argo Cascades. It's this spot in a river where they, the army Corps of Engineers, made these little waterfall drops.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah.
- [34:09]
B
You ride a tube down it or a kayak, or you just swim them and there's eight or nine of them. Then you get back out and walk to the top. And it's free.
- [34:16]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [34:17]
B
If you bring your own tube, it's free.
- [34:18]
A
And yeah.
- [34:19]
B
Our group of people, which is ages 7 to 70, 7 to 70, you know, 10, 12 of us, everyone had a good time. Hours and hours and hours of fun.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah.
- [34:32]
B
$0.00.
- [34:33]
A
$0.00. Another thing we did that was $0. That was a routine thing that we did was we did sandlot. We call it sandlot Pick up sports. Yeah. We go over to the baseball field and they would call the night before, they would call all the moms. All right, Think about that life skill. Getting your fifth grader to call all the parents to say, hey, we're going to sandlot. You know, we're going over to the park and drop off so and so. And my mom will be there and oh my gosh, was that the most fun thing. I would be there on a picnic table somewhere in the back, just in case I take somebody to the error yard, you know, because they got hit by the baseball. But they. They did this all the time. That became a hempy thing that we did. You know, every. When we said sandlot, everybody knew sandlot. On Thursday night, I would just go over there. That's where I read all these hundred books that I've read about screen time problems and all that kind of stuff. I'd sit there and read and there would be 10 kids. You know, playing baseball without any coaches, which is the way they want to play, without any dads telling them what to do. They had so much fun. Those memories. And then, Jenny, that's a whole nother podcast, let me tell you. I talk about what happens when kids play and, you know, and when they. They get innovative and they start figuring out the rules and they make up the new game, and then they have to kind of separate into the leadership areas, like a board meeting, you know, and they have to decide, you know, this guy's little, so his rules are different. This guy's bigger, so his, you know, because of the younger ones and the bigger. It's fascinating what they do. And that didn't cost me a penny. So we did so many things. But let me also say this. I was in a very different frame of mind. So let me just tell you, after you raise a gamer who becomes addicted, there's no amount of money that you wouldn't spend to keep this from happening again. So in Screenstrong, what I like to say, and even on my podcast and when I talk, I always say that, look at the money that you're spending on that new trampoline, on that new violin, on that new banjo. Whatever you're to going kids are doing. And think about it this way, it's cheaper than counseling. And I don't mean this to be funny, but I mean it kind of to be funny and kind of to be really true. You can spend your money on counseling to try to get your kids fixed because they're so screwed up and they're like, so depressed because they're not doing anything. Or you can just spend that money, go ahead and spend it on doing fun things outside and the rewards in our house, because I know a lot of times people like to use screen time as a reward, which is the worst thing that you can do. And that's just a terrible, terrible thing you can do. The rewards were always centered around, hey, if you do this, you get to spend time with dad doing this on the weekend. Or we'd go to Goodwill. Hey, you get $5 at Goodwill. Do you know how many baseball bats you can buy for $5 at Goodwill? Or I would splurge and I would say, if you do this and this happens and we get our chores done and whatever, guys, I'm gonna give you 20 of you $20. And we're going to the sporting goods store that was like, or. Or the AAA card collecting store. You reward the things that you want to continue happening in their life, and then they, they start mapping that and they're like, wow, this was really fun when we did this. I got this. And it's nothing to do with screen time. Nothing. And, and I will say, spending money on food, I did have to have almost like a whole food budget because we have boys. And when you have 10 teenage boys at your house, they eat a lot. But that was okay. And this is what I want to just give you permission. I'm not saying you need to go into debt for it, but I want to give parents permission to say, you will have to spend some resources. You can get creative. You can do group lessons. You can do. All these things are free, but that's okay. Even on the resources that, you know, even to buy the curriculum. I'm like, do y' all realize that the price of these books is less? For all of these books that we have, it's less than one trip to the counseling office. I mean, it's 250 to get started at a counselor, right? So, I mean, when you look at it practically.
- [38:31]
B
This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Hey, friends, It's Ginny from 1000 Hours Outside. Have you ever gone down the rabbit hole of searching for wellness tips online? One minute you're looking up ways to feel better if and 10 tabs later, you're overwhelmed by advice on cold plunges, journaling supplements, screen detoxes. It's a lot. I've been there. And while some of these things can help, the truth is it's hard to know what actually works for you. That's why talking to a real trained therapist can be such a game changer. It cuts through the noise and gives you personalized support. Therapy isn't just for when life is falling apart. It's also about building boundaries, learning healthy coping skills, and becoming more grounded so you can show up for yourself and your family. Betterhelp makes it easy. It's the world's largest online therapy program with over 30,000 licensed therapists and more than 5 million people helped worldwide. You can start from the comfort of your home, switch therapists if needed, and fit it into your busy life. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com 1000hours that's BetterHelp. H E L p.com 1000hours it's summer time to enjoy long days, lazy nights, and great food. Because Uber Eats has deals all summer long. So when hunger strikes, don't sweat it. Delicious deals are just a Tap away on UberEats. Enjoy all your favorite grocery items delivered straight to you.
- [39:55]
A
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B
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- [40:35]
A
And let's talk about the books for a second. Because this, this curriculum, this is so fascinating to me that we have been able with our team and with our illustrator and I don't know, you saw the illustrations in here. Like the, the, the gal that we have is just, just so fabulous and she's been working with me for so long that we can get a conversation. Jenny, she can just, I'll tell her this page, it needs to feel like this and she just does it. She knows our brand so well. She understands the issue so well. You cannot, as a writer, come up with all this stuff overnight. This is authentic because it is built on the experience that I've had in the field with this, with families, not just our own family, with all the families for, for over a decade. So we understand how to teach this to kids. And isn't that what all parents want it? Don't we all want our kids to understand this? We barely understand it ourselves. But we have to get the kids to understand it. So my mission was so clear around, okay, I know the problem, I know it inside out. I know the solution and I know what it takes to get from A to Z. Like I, I did it, I know it. We've trusted it, we've tried it with all sorts of families and parent. And then we did this and then we put it in print. Because this is the other thing. Most of the curriculums out there for digital citizenship, digital literacy, all that stuff, it's all online and these books, this is just, by the way, this is the parent. I mean, this is the kid book and this is the family book book. And see how it's the same, it's the same thing, it's just a little smaller. This is the home edition. The Home edition doesn't have curriculum stuff like the quizzes and the lesson plans and activities.
- [42:21]
B
Right?
- [42:21]
A
So it's the same material, it's the same chapters, but no parent is able to come up with this all on their own. Right? So that, that's kind of our gift, that screenstrong over the last decade, we, in fact, you know, we're not a newcomer. We've been a trailblazer in this issue for a long time. We kind of built the rails, if you will. You know, we blasted the mountain and we got the railroad going now. And now a lot of people are jumping on the rails and that is so awesome. But what we have is we have this years of experience of like learning like I know now how to explain dopamine to an 8 year old. And that's what we just did in the latest book, the Adventures of Super Brain. We explain dopamine to an 8 year old who does that. We explain neuroscience to an 8 year old. So now as a parent, you can flip through this, y' all can read this together. And because the images are so beautiful, the illustrations are so beautiful, your kids will take it to bed and they'll read it and they'll read again and they'll look at, they're just fun to look at because they're just so pretty, you know, the illustrations. But now as a parent, you get to have this guide and, and you, and it is so easy to explain to your kids, hey, this is why we're going outside. This is why we're not playing Fortnite and this is why you're not having a phone. And when you get to them really young, you know how little kids are, you know how that eight year old is, they want to protect their brain. They're like, hey, mom, is this going to hurt my brain? Like they're asking you the right questions because you've given them the template, you've given them like this format. And I think really what it is, it's the gift of the words. Now we have words and we can, we can talk about it very logically as a family. And we're going to take all that emotion and we're going to throw it out. We're not going to talk about this screen issue in an emotional tone because then we're going to get mad at each other and we're going to have conflict, we're going to have arguments and it's all the arguments and all the stuff and all the rules and all the limits. And this is what I can do. And then mom starts divvying out hours. Well, you can have, you know, 10 minutes on the iPad. Well, he got three minutes more than I did. And then it's all the big argument, and everybody's arguing. Forget it. Once you go there, it's a mess. It doesn't work. Everybody's unhappy. Nobody wants to go outside anymore because they're just mad at each other. So what we did with all of these books for these different ages is we said, hey, we're going to do the heavy lifting over here, and we're going to explain logically what is happening to your brain. What is happening and how your brain changes when you're on a screen. How does that happen? How does that happen? Well, here we're going to show you, and then we're going to draw a picture and we're going to show you what it does. We're going to show you how when you're on a screen, you're not making eye contact with your friends. And we're going to talk about that. And we're going to talk about that. When you're outside building a fort and you're lugging logs and you're sawing and you're here, that's building a relationship. That's how you build a relationship when you do things with people. And the reason, honey, why you're feeling lonely and depressed is because your relationships need some work. And because we're humans and we have to have people in our life, and we're happiest when we have good relationship. And so mom and dad isn't great that we're gonna, like, do it for you. And so we're gonna explain how you can sit down with your kids. The other thing is, in the brand new book, the Adventures of Super Brain, there's a villain. Let me show you. His name is Super. His name is Mega Drain. And I mean, like, he's so cute, right? And so whenever we were putting this book out, and we're in all of our beta testing and the test marketing and all that, and the kids, they all. They all love Mega Dream. I'm like, wait, no, you're supposed to love Super Brain. And they're like, you know, because kids like the villain, right?
- [46:19]
B
Right.
- [46:20]
A
And so we just. I just heard. I talked to a friend a couple nights ago. She goes, melanie, it's working. My daughter, who's like 10, she was with my husband. We were all in the den or whatever, and he was on his phone, and she said, dad, Mega drains. Got you Because Mega Drain in the book, it represents the addictive pull. So it's like they have their words now. So it's like they can talk about Mega Drain, they can talk about super brain, they can talk about their mission and how they're going to protect their brain, and that's what this, this book is about. So I get really wound up about this because I feel like I've discovered the, the cure to this screen cancer in our world, and I know how to derail and get you off of the wrong path and get you on the right path. And this is such a big part of it. It's all about education, Jenny. You know, with the smoking industry and everything that happened years ago in the 70s with smoking, and, you know, you've talked about this before, but it wasn't until we started educating our kids about this issue that the whole trajectory changed. We have to, we, I mean, we can educate adults and that's fine, but we have to educate the youngest in our, in our generation. We have to educate them. That's why most kids today aren't smoking in high school. Remember back in the day, we used to have smoking patios in all the high schools, and all the powers that be said, well, we're never going to get kids to stop smoking. Well, you know what we did, we started educating them. We started bringing those jars of black lungs into the classroom and saying, look, this is your lung when you smoke. And, and kids are smart, and they are so smart, and they did it with drugs, too.
- [47:59]
B
I mean, this is your brain on drugs. I, I remember, I remember that it was like the frying pan. They drop, yeah. An egg in the frying pan and say, this is your brain on drugs. And I mean, I don't know. I, you know, you never know. Like, did that change numbers? But you remember that, you remember the imagery.
- [48:15]
A
But, but it took 30 years in culture to get everybody to understand that smoking was causing cancer. But today we don't have 30 years. And if you're listening today, you don't even have 30 minutes, right? You, you've got to go make some changes in your house. And unfortunately, or fortunately, it does fall on parents many times. It does fall on the mom many times. Mom is working, she's doing, she's at home, she's trying to do all these things. You know, she's homeschooling her kids. All these different things are happening. But let me tell you, it is an investment. And every time you hand over a screen to your kids, when it's used for Entertainment. Because, you know, kids use screens very differently than we use screens. And that's the first thing you got to understand with Screenstrong is that we help you understand that. That your kid is not using the screen the same way that you are. They're not just looking up cupcake recipes all day long. That's not what they're doing. So we have to understand, understand this, but we have to understand that every time we hand a screen over to our kids, we are taking money out of that account. We are. We are not investing, we are withdrawing. And what my goal with my boys, with the younger boys especially, and with my daughter, I wanted to invest. I wanted to invest in their childhood. I wanted them to have the best investment upfront. So over time, in 10, 20 years, they will be reaping the dividends. And they are.
- [49:43]
B
And they are. And people listen to it yesterday. People listen to it yesterday. They can hear the boys. And, you know, one of the things that you talk about is, and a lot of people have this question is, are they going to overindulge later? But I can look back at my own childhood, my parents, limited television, and I don't overindulge as an adult at all. We don't watch any television, actually, because there's so many other things to do. And you talk about that in these books when you're explaining the impact of screens on brains, you talk about how the reward pathways become overdeveloped and the other pathways are underdeveloped. And so this is what you're talking about. You know, we want to make sure that they have healthy doses of dopamine that are associated with activities that bring them life and health and happiness and wholeness. And when you talk about pay now, pay later. Yeah, I've talked about that quite a bit. My midwife, because, you know, she talks a lot about. It's very similar to nutrition. And you're, you know, you. You're young. You know, often when you have a baby, she's like, well, you, you know, you need to get this vitamin or this supplement, right? Goodness, you know, I don't have. And that's one of the things she talks about. You know, you pay now or you pay later, and if you pay later, it often is way more expensive.
- [50:51]
A
Oh, the dividends are unbelievable. And the reason why is because you've set up a good pattern and that it's all about beginning with the end in mind. It's all about what do you want your kids to do when you're no longer 24? Hours around them. What do you want them to do? So you've got to start setting up that pathway right now in their brain if you want them to. Just whenever they have a down moment, when they're a little bored, when they have some downtime, if you want them to just pick up a screen for the rest of their life, then that's what you need to do now. And because they will, whatever you, you do with them now is what they will repeat later. We know even when we get married, we start making all the recipes that our mom made. Right. Because that's what we grew up with. And, you know, even now my boys are talking. It's so funny. They're like, mom, one day when we get married and we have kids, they're going to take music lessons. You know, I'm like, well, you didn't like, you know, at first you didn't like them.
- [51:46]
B
Do you know, they said to me what they would maybe even do more and restrict more. More lessons, more restrictions. That was, that's what they said, that they would be even a more extreme version.
- [52:00]
A
Yeah.
- [52:00]
B
Of you.
- [52:00]
A
Because they, they see the benefit of it. And the other thing is sometimes they say, yeah, well, you know, we told our mom we hated her and whatever, Jenny, I'll tell you right now, I don't remember them ever saying that. I don't remember. Maybe they, whatever.
- [52:16]
B
It's tricky when you're the only one in middle school that doesn't have the thing. But, but you just, you give it four or five years and it changes. It does not take very long.
- [52:24]
A
It's not even four or five years. I mean, let me just say that's. If you, if right now, if that's the only thing you get from this thing today, listening is that middle school is the hardest time. Like seventh and eighth grade is going to be the hardest time.
- [52:34]
B
Two years.
- [52:34]
A
So in your mind, you're going to get over that and you're going to do whatever it takes to get past that. Because by the time they get to 9th or 10th grade, nobody cares if you have a phone or not. Nobody cares.
- [52:46]
B
And in fact, it might be cooler to not.
- [52:48]
A
It's cooler.
- [52:49]
B
I want to hit one more thing because I know you're popping off. And I thought this was really an important thing to know. This is in the curriculum. Researchers say it takes over 200 hours. So you have this question of how long does it take to, to turn a casual acquaintance into a good friend. I was like, gosh, I have no idea. Like, I wonder what the Answer is it takes over 200 hours to transform an acquaintance into a close friend. So think about that. You know, that's, you know, that's 200 rounds of golf.
- [53:18]
A
That's right. 200 hours of spending time together.
- [53:21]
B
Right, right. And so that's a big investment. If you want your child to have a close friend, it's not going to happen through the screen. It has to happen. You need 200 hours of investment outside of a school day in order for that child to start to build these relationships. And so I love how you put numbers to it, you put practical ideas to it, and then you have these resources to help teach the kids for now. And also so that when they become parents, they have the verbiage for it as well. And they can start strong in that stage of life with really good information, armed. Armed against these companies that are making billions and billions and billions of dollars off of the attention and focus of our children. So, Melanie, thank you for being here. I put all the links in the show notes so people can check out these resources. You're always coming out with stuff that's new and you have stuff that's old.
- [54:06]
A
I've got so much stuff.
- [54:07]
B
You have so much stuff.
- [54:09]
A
And I just want to be encouraging here at the end and I just want to encourage everyone if you are struggling, if you know in the back of your mind and your gut and you're feeling like, hey, I think my kid is starting to have a problem with this, there is hope. We can help you. You get on our site. We have free resources on our site. Screenstrong.org the, the books of kids, brains and screens are there to help you. This is, this is not a get rich quick thing at all. This is like, I'm here in the trenches with you. We can help you fix it. We have the solutions. We're not just talking about this. We have the actual solutions about what to do in your house, how to fix your schedule, how to do all the things that we were just talking about today. We can help you. We've done it with thousands of families. We can help you. I want you to just kind of to end on that positive note because it's not the end of the world. You don't have to end up with a child like, like Adam, unfortunately, that kind of really got his life derailed and dropping out of college. You can end up with where you are now. Start where you are now and start investing in the right things. But I'm telling you, you're going to have to get rid of some of these screens, you're gonna have to do the hard work. We set a very high bar, not gonna lie. We want you to hit a home run. You know, I mean, we want you to get up to bat, but we want you to hit a home run, and we're gonna help you hit a home run. Screenstrong really does set a very high bar for this. We are the gold standard for the education that comes out in this space. And again, we're so thrilled about this book today. It's new out, and you go to screenshot.org to get it, too.
- [55:37]
B
Thank you.
- [55:41]
A
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