← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 561: Questions the Internet Can’t Answer | Anna Mitchael, They Will Tell You the World is Yours
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Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a wonderful guest today who wrote this really thought provoking book about what the world tells you. The world tells you this, the world tells you that. It's called they will tell you the world is yours. On little rebellions and finding your way. The author Anna Mitchell is here. Welcome, Anna.
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A
Hi. Thank you for having me.
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B
This is a really interesting type of book. I haven't read many books like it. It almost feels like poetry. But I don't probably wouldn't call it poetry. It's like these little vignettes. And I really was drawn to it, Anna, because I am pretty interested in the things that people that culturally you hear are true, but maybe are not going to give you your best life or maybe they're not true at all. And this every single, and there's so many of them, every single, I guess you would call them chapters. But every single one starts off with they tell you this, they tell you that, you know, they tell you to enjoy the moment because time moves fast. They tell you that you know nothing, like today is when they were young. They tell you to believe in your feelings. And so I was really impressed that you were able to capture so many of these sort of cultural messages that we get and then you would give your own take on them. Where did that idea come from?
- [01:47]
A
The idea for the vignettes, like that style, the sort of short bits that give you kind of what I hope is a really powerful reading experience is just what I've always been drawn to writing. Like, I love the little, because I think of them almost like slices of life. Like a friend of mine talked about how they're sort of like little polaroids of moments that take you kind of through life, you know, and, and I think you can tell a really powerful story using them. And then I also feel like that fits the way that we live right now, you know, and with that you can come in, read a little bit, come out like you don't feel like you're missing something and like the idea of like having to read a whole Book isn't weighing on you. You know, you can have, you can go in and take a little bit of beauty out or an idea out, like whatever you need. And then the idea of writing about what the culture puts on us. And like you said, like, the book is truly about birth. How all the messages start coming to us from like day one, you know, and, and whether it's things that people are directly saying or things that we pick up on, you know, I, I wrote this at a time in my life. I was like super early 40s, really, just in a midlife space, and I had just decided to go back to work full time, mostly because of a lot of like, outside forces, you know, and I was having this experience where the job was great. Everyone was very excited about the job for me from the outside, but. But like my inner life wasn't great with it, you know, and we had been living out in the country away from like a City for 14, 13 years and had come back in and I just felt so overwhelmed and I couldn't figure out why. And there was no, you know, there was no like, rational, logical. And I am like all about the self help. I am all about like the books that will tell you what to do or even like Instagram slogans. And I'm like, yes, that's what I need to embrace today, today. But I started thinking about this just kind of like inner experience and where there was a real disconnect from what I was taking in and then how I was living. And I just. So I wanted to write about it. I was, I never knew. I kind of didn't think that this book would find legs and makes its way to the world because it is such a different format, you know, So I didn't really write it for others. I like truly wrote it for me to kind of try to work out where I was in life. And then it did kind of take on a little bit of a life of its own, which was great.
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B
I mean, it is thing after thing. You came up with so many, I guess, of the things that happen in life or things that people say or like you said, just the impressions that you get that you wouldn't really necessarily think too deeply about. And I was impressed with how many there were. I was like, oh, yeah, people do say this, they do say that. And you know what, what do I really think about that? Or how could I think about that differently? So just a really interesting format. What's your journey as a writer? Because this is not your first book.
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No. Yes. So I'VE worked as a writer since. For almost 25 years now. Professionally. Like, I started working in ad agencies kind of as like so that I could make money while I wrote books on the side, like. Cause books were what I always wanted to make. And I started out writing vignettes like this. And I was living in New York, I was working at like a really big, fast paced ad agency and taking classes at night. I had this, this writing teacher who was really well respected. I loved her. She was like, I'm sorry, these vignettes are never gonna sell. And so I, you know, which was correct. Like, it was correct in the sense of like, you're an unknown writer. Like, this is not a format anyone's seen. Like. And so. But I took her advice and then I went and kind of learned. Not kind of, I did, I learned to write novels. So I published, I had a memoir published in 2010 and some women's fiction book about ad agency life that's like so fun. Like such a beach read. So different than this. Like published in 2015. And then I just kind of came back around and I really felt like, I just felt like I had this story and then I almost, you know, know, parallel to what's in the book, I was like, I appreciate all the advice about what's going to sell in the world, but I started out being a writer because I wanted to make sense of the world. And so I was just like, I. I've got to start just writing for me without care of what, what might happen out there with it, you know, and that's hard for me because I have worked in advertising, I've been an editor for magazines, I've ghostwritten for people. I'm very used to having a client. Like, I like people to like what they read, you know, but at some point I think we all have to put the client away and say, like, what, what do I need? Because we're not going to offer anything new to the world if we're kind of offering more of what's out there. And I feel like that's like a really hard thing to come to terms with. But I feel like it's also true.
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B
Because you can take that they will tell you intro and apply it in so many different areas. Like, they will tell you, you, you need to write what will sell, you know, like, and so you could take that in your life and really take that premise to start to dive deeper into what you really want out of life. One of the things we talked about before we started recording was that you did these summer vacations with your family and you know, it's like, well, they will tell you, you know, you should take your kid to the theme park. You know, you need to do this, that and the other thing. And you ended up, instead of doing that, you did national parks and you talked about how impactful that was. Can you talk about that in terms of parenting? And there is a lot of noise out there in terms of what kids need and what we need to be doing for them. And that sometimes these really simple nature experiences can be so powerful and relationship building.
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I totally agree. And I also think. So, yes, we, as a parent, you know, I find summer very overwhelming because on one hand everyone's like, oh, it's finally time to relax. And then on the other hand, everyone's like, so what camps your kids signed up for? How are they low level, still going to be succeeding during summer? You know? And I'm like, shoot, I didn't. I had no plans for success this summer, especially this last summer, because the book had come out in May and I was. I was tired. We were all kind of tired. And. And we hadn't done a vacation where we just, like, got in the car and drove. And that was something that I did a lot growing up. And a road trip. Yes, a road trip. Like a really long, exhaustive road trip where no one thinks you're going to get along the whole time because, like. But that's part of it too, right? So my husband and I were like, let's just go. Let's just do it. And we did this. We went up to Rocky Mountain national park and we. Neither my husband nor I had been to Utah. So we went over and did Arches and Canyonlands and just really saw just some expansive views. And it was great for us, relationship building. It was great for our family. But I also, like, saw my kids climb to the top of like, you know, and just look out at the world from these spots and just, I think, saw the world as so much bigger, you know, And I feel like those little snippets, I just was really glad to give to them. And then I was glad. Like, I've had moments since school started this year where I've been like, take yourself back. Remember the expansiveness of, you know, that you can also experience, like, try to hold that here in your everyday life. And I feel like, you know, that's what vacation should give us. I mean, that's what reading should give us, right? Is this expansive experience in our everyday. And my hope is, like, is that's what the vignette form does allow. Because it's like, man, I don't have time to do a lot, but I can, I can read some. I can take a thought away. I can have this experience. I can remember there's a bigger, deeper picture going on all the time.
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B
Yeah, the vignettes too, especially in this way that you did it. You do take that style and that topic, that overriding topic of. They will tell you and, and then you start to really, you apply it to other parts of your life, which wouldn't happen if it wasn't the vignette style because it's, every single chapter opens with that. And so then you take that concept into other parts of your life which is like, well, they will tell you you need what, what camps have you signed up for? They will tell you what enrichment, you know, what are your summer enrichments? And they will tell you you have to get all this homework done. They will tell you that, you know, you need X amount of gpa. They will tell you that the Ivy League school is your only way to go. And it gives you that framework to look at your other, the other parts of your life through that lens. And if it were a novel or if it were a regular self help book, you wouldn't get that because it's, it's repetitive. And so then you take that way of looking at life and you can, I'm so slow at thinking sometimes you can take that and it starts to permeate out into whatever your life experience or life circumstances.
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Yes. And I think too, to your point of like, because, because way that the vignettes stack up with the same intro, my hope is, I mean, because you said, I can't believe you've like, you thought of that many. Honestly, it wasn't that hard. Once you get going and you look at all the ways the world pushes against you, it's not that hard to come up with that many. But the mo. I think I want people to feel that, that momentum, like how that, how it all stacks on top of each other, you know what I mean? And so, and so the easy default is to kind of keep going with what you know is going to get you through to the next day. And I think sometimes in some seasons that's all we can do. You know, I mean some, some seasons you just go along with it. And sometimes what the world tells us is right. Like, I'm not advocating like constant rebellion, you know, I'm, but I am, I am advocating like stopping like pausing, looking at what's being told and saying, does that fit me? Does it fit my family? And. And does that fit where I want to be in 10 years, 15 years? Like, what. What I want to cultivate and grow, you know, for everyone that I love for my life? And I think that that is something that can't be told to us. Like, I don't think that is something. I mean, obviously we can get the tips and the road, the roadmarks, like all those things, highway markers in a book. But I think that part of that is learning the experience. And it's learning to. It's sort of. Once you have the experience and you ask the question a few times and you say, oh, no, I'm going to turn away from that. It kind of gets easier and easier, and you can break that momentum, that relentlessness of, you know, that's always coming.
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B
At you and you can trust in yourself. I mean, I. You go to, you know, you do this road trip, and to your point, there is value in summer camp. There's actually a lot of value in summer camp, especially the ones where the kids don't have their phones. So, you know, I talked to this man named Mike McLeod and, you know, you know, he's really advocating for kids to be, you know, you're out canoeing and you're making bracelets and all of those types of things, and your phone's put away. But when you step away from that and you say, look, we're going to go on this really long road trip. We went to Utah for the first time just a few years ago and went to Arches and Canyonlands. And I won't ever forget, you know, the first hike on the left when you're driving up. First of all, the drive up into Arches is so phenomenal. It's on the left, and I think it's called Park Avenue. And it's like the. It's just like maybe a half mile or something. It's not even all that long. And it just. Those rocks, they just tower.
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I know.
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And that is a very different experience than summer camp. They both have their pluses, and they, you know, they both have positive parts to them. But if you're really pushed into a certain direction because of what the world tells you, you can miss out maybe on some of these other things that you're drawn to. So I. I mean, we were just blown away by Arches and Canyonlands. Just absolutely stunning. So, things to think about. The other day, my lamp broke. It's my bedside lamp, and I use it to read late into the night. Because I'm always preparing for this podcast. It broke. It actually won't turn off unless I unplug it. And so I needed to find a new lamp for my bedside and my favorite place to go of all places to go is Wayfair. Wayfair is the perfect place to go if your tableside lamp breaks, but it's also the perfect place to kick off your back to school and fall season prep. Everything comes so fast and they have an amazing selection of things from cozy bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room. They always have you covered. Plus their huge selection of outdoor items makes it easy to find just what we need to transition smoothly into the fall. Besides lamps and linens, they even have playsets. We have the most incredible playset in our backyard that we got from Wayfair about six years ago and the kids still use it constantly. Whether you're refreshing your workspace with a new desk or making weeknight dinners a breeze with quality cookware, or Wayfair literally has it all. And with free fast and hassle free delivery, even on big stuff like sofas and dining tables, there is no better time to shop, get organized, refreshed and back into routine for way less. Head over to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's Wayfair. W A Y f a I r.com Wayfair Every style Every Home the Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack Welchmba to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Shev and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
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Online and in store. Okay, one of the ones from the book that really stuck out to me was when you wrote about curiosity. So the chapter is called Going Gray and you say they will tell you curiosity is a feeling that can easily be conquered. Pull your phone out of your pocket and all the answers are at your fingertips. What's the nearest gas station? What's the difference between fatty tuna and tuna? How can you explain the stock market in two minutes or less? Who is the highest paid American athlete? How much would it cost to fly to Paris tomorrow? These are, first of all, these are great questions. Oh, they're just all over the place. And anybody can picture themselves pulling their phone out and being like, what is the difference between fatty tuna and regular tuna? Or whatever, you know, who is. Oh, who what? What athlete is the highest paid? And you can just put out. And then you go into this such beautiful part about questions of the Internet will never be able to answer. So talk to us about curiosity and the questions we ask.
- [16:55]
A
Yes. Well, I think I feel it myself a lot. I feel like that kind of. Okay, well, here's a question. And here's another question, you know, and just kind of that and that how it builds one upon the other. And then I also feel that getting in bed at night and feeling like my brain is going to explode because, you know, like, I've put so much into it and there's been no space. Space made. And. And so I feel like part of curiosity for me is really tied to like my outdoor time. I just find that it comes more naturally for me there of. And my husband is. My husband is a farmer. He does like farm and ranch, like way out in the country. And so his entire life is outdoor. And I think that's part of, like, what drew me to him because he does have like this real inner curiosity where he will follow the trail of like, well, what's going on here that's making this not grow well, and what's the cause over here and following it in the natural world. So I think that that train of thought. But it's space making in that venue that's making the space. It's kind of like, what am I really discovering? What's the next question that pops up for me? What do I see? What if I just feel like doing nothing? Whatever it is that you need. And I think to me, that versus the kind of information pouring in, there's just a difference in that progression. So it is a curiosity on the phone too, right? It's like a curiosity that has you asking these questions. But I think what I'm speaking to is more of like that curiosity that just comes from us being out in this world that's been created for us to enjoy and taking that in as a Teacher and as a pacemaker, you know, because if we make our own pace where it's, you know, we see what happens when, when we go to the pace of the world, it's exhausting. Like, there comes a point where you hit a wall, but you don't really, you don't hit a wall on the other side. And I think there's a reason for that.
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B
I love the idea of space because even if you just give it a little bit of time. So if you ask the question, if you're in a conversation and people are like, who's the highest paid American athlete? No, I don't really know anything about sports. I guess I would be like, I think, I would think maybe LeBron James or Michael Jordan or Serena Williams. And I'm done. I don't know any others.
- [19:18]
A
There we go.
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B
Michael Phelps, you know, but it, it starts to get your mind. That's such a different conversation, isn't it, Anna? Like you have the one conversation of who, who's the highest paid American athlete. I'm going to look it up and I'm going to tell you right now who it is.
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A
And.
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B
But if you give it a teeny bit of space. What a different conversation. Yeah, well, it might be Michael Phelps. Well, why? Because he won all these gold medals. Do Olympians even make money? I don't actually totally know. So, you know, it opens it up to just such a broader conversation. And in fact, yesterday we found a praying mantis, which is one of my favorite insects. I think they're so remarkably cool looking. And we, we find about one a summer, that's it. And it's, you know, the end of August. So I'm looking around like we haven't found one. And I hope we find one. And there was one on this chair outside at our house. And the eyes. So the praying mantis is obviously this green color. And the eyes were also green, which I, I never really seen that before. Like, the whole thing was green. The, the eyes weren't black. Well, then we brought it inside because the, you know, the kids were like playing with it and that type of thing. Don't get mad at me if you're listening. The praying mantis is safe and fine, but then the eyes turn black. So then everyone was like, well, what happened to the eyes? And I haven't looked it up yet. I don't know. But the space allows you to be like, well, maybe inside is different. Maybe it fell asleep. Are they open? Are they closed? Maybe it got older and the eye color changes. It just Gives you, I don't actually don't know what the answer is, but it gives you an opportunity to like, that expands your curiosity. A question is curious, but when you don't get the answer right away, it expands your curiosity because you start to ask, you start to think, well, maybe.
- [21:07]
A
This and you're making. That's just the space for creativity and imagination. Right. And it's like even as a writer, as you were talking, I was thinking about that of like, because when I sit down to write without a really good question or a thought provoking question, like, there's really nothing to write. And then if I ask myself a question, but I'm like, oh, well, I'll just like go find the answer. There's no, I mean, there's nothing coming from like a deep well in me that I can like somehow try to get to paper that maybe somehow will reach someone else. Which I mean is the whole beauty of writing and reading. Right. So the process can. Because you're right, like the questions might be the same. The questions you, you know, all good questions. But are you like dead ending that by just coming up with the fact answer as opposed to being like letting your neighbor be like, you know, I don't know about the highest paid athlete, but I am super interested in like, you know, and just see where. I mean, that's all creativity in different forms and.
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B
Right. Well, I played this sport when I was a kid. It's very different. It's an ender.
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A
Oh, it's so true.
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B
When you know the answer, it ends it and then that's over. But if it's still hanging out there, yeah, good questions lead to stronger relationships and more wonder and just they lead to other things. Like how much would it cost to fly to Paris tomorrow? I don't know. So I mean, is it $600? Is it, is it $2,000? How much would you be willing to pay to fly to Paris tomorrow? What are you doing tomorrow? Do you want to go to Paris tomorrow? You know, like that. Yeah, don't answer it right away. Okay. But then you go on with these five questions the Internet will never be able to answer. And I thought, oh, this is a really good conversation topic, Anna. Like, what are questions that the Internet can it never answer? I'm going to read the ones you wrote here. But people can think about it. What does the person sitting next to me fear the most? How does love feel inside my body? What makes a good mother? What is truth in the world? And do I have what it takes to go find it can you talk about why those questions are so important? Like the types of questions that the Internet, you know, your, your ChatGPT, your Google, the questions that they could never.
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A
Answer or they might try to answer, but I mean, to the point of our conversation, it would, it would be very shallow, dead ending. I mean, I think that those, those questions touch on what I. What I've come back to is being like the core pillars, like in my life. So, you know, my faith, my family, you know, the ways that I love. Like, I. And so if anybody else can just tell me what all of that is, then, like, why am I getting out of bed in the morning? You know, like, why am I walking through the world? What is. And that's been a big shift for me, like, even just in the course of my life, to be able to come back around and say, this is. This is truly what really matters to me. And I think, and I hope and I believe that we're all made with like a unique, sort of a unique mix up of those answers and how it comes out of us and how it manifests and how we see it reflected in the world and how we offer it to others. So that's, I think, why I gravitated to those topics. Even when you're reading them out loud, I kind of felt like maybe I would cry a little bit. So I do think that I put the right questions down. Lately that's been. I don't know how you feel about tears, but lately I've been a little bit like, if I get choked up, there's like, something's there.
- [24:42]
B
I know I get, I get choked up. I get choked up quite a bit, actually. I think that those questions are good questions to talk about. Like just those actual specific ones that are in. They will tell you the world is yours, like what makes a good mother or, you know, what's the person sitting next to me for the most. But I also think it's a good conversation topic to talk about. What are questions that, you know, a robot wouldn't be able to answer? So that one, I like the mix in the book too, because that one is about, you know, that's about curiosity and then there's one about just preconceived notions. So I liked this one and I think this is what you're going with it. I think you're going about preconceived notions, but I don't totally know. So that's why I want to talk about it.
- [25:24]
A
Okay.
- [25:24]
B
They will tell you the new boss is starting on Monday. So another thing, right? We're like, oh, oh, who's it going to be? So you spend the weekend wondering what's she going to be like? And then you say when she actually shows up, she's younger. You know, she's younger, Younger, younger, younger. It never occurred to you that she might be younger?
- [25:45]
A
Yeah.
- [25:46]
B
Talk to us about that. Because it's like these preconceived notions that we have and then kind of sometimes shock that you have, and you're like, well, that. What does it tell you? It makes, you know, it tells you that you're getting older. And I mean, it's just a lot of different things.
- [25:59]
A
Yeah, it's so. It's so much. And then I think what it also tells you is, like, I don't know, just. Just be ready to. Just be ready to take whatever comes and, like. And I think that, you know, it's. I don't. I don't know. I'm going to say it's impossible, but it's impossible for me to go through life without any kind of preconceived notion or, like. I mean, that's just sort of how we make sense of things. But I think part of it also that I found as I've gotten older is like, being willing to have those blown out of the water at any time. And then somehow, because of course, that's not always comfortable, but somehow being able to come back around and look at it and say, like, man, what a gift. You know, like, I was, like, really on a narrow tunnel with this or that, right? And now all of a sudden, it's gotten blown open, and I just feel like that way of living in, like, acceptance of, you know, of. Of just what either comes to us in the day or what another person might be offering, I find to be the only way that I can kind of go through the world without just being like that. Like, you know, just always constantly pushing against new things that come because I need to stay with what my. What my plan is, what my view is, what my. You know, I found that being more permeable to that and being more open to whatever's actually in front of me is such a. Such a better, more peaceful way to live.
- [27:27]
B
Well, you're just kind of like, oh, oh, oh, that's. That was out. I really get. That's not what I was expecting. I feel like it happens sometimes, like with a doctor. You're like, oh, oh, yeah, you're a lot younger.
- [27:40]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [27:41]
B
Like, wait a minute.
- [27:43]
A
Yeah. No, and that, I mean, in that very specific context of that story, which is like about aging and just, just kind of realizing because it's like in so many ways. Sometimes I just look in the mirror and I'm like, I was really expecting my 25 year old self to be looking back at me like, you know, we held these pictures in our heads of things, you know, or I was this summer I tried to water ski and I was like, oh, mama ain't 31 anymore. Like. And so I feel sometimes we just have to catch up with ourselves a little bit, you know. But then I also think there's grace of being like, it's good to be older, you know, it's good to hold some of this and just because sometimes when the preconceived notion goes, it's like, oh, shoot, maybe I should have. You know, this person's much younger than me and they're off, they're writing me prescriptions and doing things. Maybe I should have gained more knowledge in that area when I was younger or like, gone a different path. But I think like, to me that's been part of aging is having to remind myself like, oh, you made decisions, you made and here you are and today's a new day, you know.
- [28:42]
B
Yeah, that's an interesting part of it. I didn't really think about it from those terms. I thought about it more of like, oh, I'm surprised because I had these preconceived notions. But then it could, it could sow seeds of doubt, you know, especially if that person is younger than you could have ever been in because you made different life choices. Then you start to think, oh, well, wait, oops, you know, or maybe I should have done it different.
- [29:05]
A
And that was specifically like within that story. I think that there, there was for me in the writing and I very much, I hope that because it's fiction, there is space for everyone to kind of take, you know, if you take the preconceived notion message from that story. But I think within that, the idea of having the boss that's younger than you is like, well, where did I miss? Like a rung on the ladder? You know, is kind of this like maybe an automatic sort of thought process, but to your point of like, well, you know, I went here and did this and made these, you know, my, the, the larger map of my life looks different than the larger map of her life and where we're going and all the things. And that's just, I think as you, I found, as I age is something that I have to like, hold pretty tight to. Especially like I live in Waco. I have like a very, I have three children. I have a very young child and I was just at like a parent meeting the other night and I'm probably 10 years older than everyone else in the, all the other parents in the class. And so I am often like, you've made different life choices. You've made different life choices, you know, and I, I just, it's, it's helpful to carry around.
- [30:16]
B
It is. And yeah, I think you have to really embrace that for your confidence and, and also looking for the good of it. Looking for what are the benefits of that? What are the benefits of coming in and being 10 years older and this child is the youngest. You're always going to have that. If you have more than one child, it's like, well, yeah, you were a younger mom with the older one and with the younger one or younger ones, you're an older mom. I mean I remember meeting friends because I'm the oldest in my family. My parents had me in their early 20s. So, you know, they, they were grandparents in their 50s. Some people are grandparents in their 40s. And, and you know, sometimes I would meet someone in their, like their mom is the same age as my grandma or something, you know, something like that.
- [30:54]
A
Yeah.
- [30:55]
B
And it's because I'm the oldest in my family and they're the youngest, the youngest of a bunch of different kids. And it's just, it's just how it goes, the larger map of the life that helps you to not fall into the comparison. And the what if and the I feel really awkward. It just is what it is. And then I would imagine you have a lot to offer to especially if those moms are like first time moms and their kid is just going off to school or you've got life perspective that you can offer.
- [31:21]
A
Well, and my husband also, because we've kind of been talking about it on and off last years and I like his, what he offered me and it was just like, think of what you can teach her. Like just by, you know, by looking different, being, you know, being older, like Stamp, but still standing on your own and just saying like, hey, here I am, you know, and not, not feeling insecure about it, which I know I, I feel like. And everyone's like, oh, by the time you hit your 40s, you totally know who you are and you should be like a rock and whatever. And I guess there's a little more of that.
- [31:48]
B
No, not if the younger boss comes in.
- [31:50]
A
Yeah, right. Insecurity and things. And so I think, I feel like now I try to look at it also through the lens of like, all right, how are my kids seeing me react to this situation? Like, they see me being uncomfortable and then do I sit? Am I able to like, sit through this and like, show them that we hit uncomfortable things all the time and it's okay, you know, and we, and how we like move through that, or am I trying to gloss over it.
- [32:19]
B
And just trying to fit into some sort of a mold? It is interesting because you spend a good part of your formative years doing what everybody else does at the exact same time. And we, our oldest is about to graduate and, you know, he'll graduate in the spring. And I mean, I, I'm always blown away by the fact that once you graduate, like, you scatter to the winds. I mean, there are so many different things you can do with your life once you graduate. It's like, well, you could become a parent, you could travel the world, you could join the military, you could go to college, you could become an entrepreneur, you could get a job. You know, there's all of these different options, but up until that point, it was the same, same, same, same, same. And so I almost feel like there's that drawing back to like, well, now I feel different. But of course you do, because there's so many different ways that you can live your life once you hit those adult years. And you kind of touch on that. In the book where you talk about your terms, this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [33:39]
A
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- [34:40]
B
They will tell you women are having children later in life than ever before. You will understand this is such a great line because you have been raised in a time where nothing is more important than a woman living her life on her own terms, that this is so women can live their lives on their own terms. But then you say there's this question of, did I miss out on what today could have been? That's a question the Internet can't answer. Did I miss out on what today could have been? That's hard.
- [35:09]
A
It is a hard question, you know, and I don't think that it's a question that, like, every day we can put our. I mean, realistically put our head on the pillow and be like, oh, yeah, I live today. All that it can be. But I feel like where there are spots where we want. Wish to have gone a different way, then that can, like, redo, you know, it can give us something to build on the next day. So I think that's probably. That's a question that I don't hold up every day, but I do think it's a question that I think about for different seasons, for sure. Did I make. Was this the right. Did I do what I wanted to do here? And if not, how can I recalibrate moving forward? But I think to your point of we scatter to the wind and there's all these directions to go, I mean, that is something that scattering is constantly happening. Then through the rest of adulthood, there's just all of these ways and all of these decisions. And so I think that that really contributes to this. This main character, this. This woman in the book, her sense of overwhelm because she doesn't have an anchor or a consistent measure. She's constantly just measuring against what the world's told her. And has she. You know, and I think that that. With that comes a lot of her, like, doubt and questioning and just dissonance in general, because that. That particular measure is always changing, Right? If we're just always trying to do what the world tells us, what will be successful? Like, what will, you know, then. Then we're going to be chasing the carrot till the end of our days. And so that is very much the journey that. That I hope was resolved when you read it. I hope was resolved by the end for you of her coming to a spot where she finds, for her what is going to be like the, the flagpole in the sand of like no. Or the, I don't know, compass. I don't know, the thing that she's going to measure against that's non moving, you know, that will, will be the director of her life as opposed to this kind of shifting.
- [37:14]
B
I like that you use the word dissonance because that does feel. Because that word, I think adequately, that word really well, I think describes this. Live life on your own terms. Also consider freezing your eggs. You know, I mean, right. I mean they're gonna say that live life on your own terms. But then there are a lot of pressure, cultural pressures to not do that and to do life this way and to make sure you build your career and kids can come later and it, which is fine. I mean you can, you can be a first time mom at 22 or 42. That's, that's a big range of things, but it's, it's more about the idea of really thinking it through.
- [37:53]
A
Through and getting. Yeah. And are you getting to that spot of 22 or 42? Because it's truly in line with like if, with what you believe or is it because you've been like, okay, well if I don't do XYZ now, then it won't be an option to me later, so I've got to just do this and you know, I mean, and it sounds really basic when we, when we just say it like that. It's like, oh, yeah, well, of course, you know, but I think in the lived experience of every day, it's a lot harder.
- [38:20]
B
That's terrifying. It's terrifying.
- [38:23]
A
What if I'm missing out, like, what.
- [38:25]
B
If both ways, right? What if I'm missing out on the career? Right? Because you look around and you're like, well, gosh, that woman boss is 12 years younger than I am. Like, what if I'm missing out on that? What if I'm missing out on the motherhood piece? And so it is kind of terrifying and it, I, that's why I talk a lot about how I think, especially in this day and age, because cultural messages are very strong and loud because of things like social media and they're very conforming that you have to read a lot or you have to be exposed to a lot of ideas, otherwise you can't really grapple with it because a lot of it is philosophical and you know, well, what would some of the benefits be if I choose to be A younger mom, or what would some of the benefits be if I stick in this career? I talked to someone once who said that, and then this isn't like a right or wrong thing, but it's just something to consider. And this person was like, well, sometimes you get to a spot. If you build this career and you're making six figures and you're, you know, you're doing great, and then you decide to have kids, then you almost feel like you can't stay home with them if you want to. You're kind of like, you feel like you're locked in because you've built this thing. So it's not necessarily about, this is the right answer for this person, but it's about thinking through, like, what the outcomes could look like and not just accepting at face value that, like, this is the better way. Freeze your eggs, you know, kids later, career now, or vice versa, whatever it is. But you can't. You don't know what you don't know. And so I, I think that there has to be some thought into what other people who have already lived say about life.
- [40:03]
A
Yeah. And you don't know what you don't know. And then I think also, like, there's a really good chance that what you know is going to change in another season or another time. Like when, I mean, when I started out and I was like, working on. I was working on the east coast doing things. I was in Seattle for a time stuff. If you had told me that I was going to marry a farmer in Texas, and, like, I mean, I would have left you out of the room. Like, I just, you know, so. But I think that life takes us places and we want it to take us places. But. But that you just have. You have to drop the rope at some point on some things. But to your point about. I think that we. I think that there it is normal to be terrified of kind of this idea of like, what if this is. Because these are. They all feel like these huge forks in the road. Right. And these huge decisions. And like, what if this doesn't work out? And what if that doesn't work out? Like, on some level it's not going to work out. Like, it's just, It's You. You are not going to have everything. Like, it's just not going to be. And so are you going to be able to make peace and move through with what you've chosen to put in your basket? You know, and so I think that to that. And like, you're not always going to feel great about what's in your basket. It's like what I just said about the parent meeting. Like, there are moments, you know, but like, I love my basket. I would fight for my basket. And I think that that's what I would want my daughter to take away too, is like, put in your basket what you want to carry, you know, and like, and let that be with you for the long haul and be okay with what maybe didn't make it in, you know.
- [41:35]
B
Yeah. What didn't make it in. There's a faith component there. I think that's helpful. There's a verse that says something like, in your heart, you. You plan your course, but the Lord determines your steps. So that's a helpful for people who are interested one to kind of grasp on to you.
- [41:51]
A
Well, and I think too, like, I mean, there's a lot of. Within scripture, a lot about just letting go of anxiety and the way we live. And I think too, you had something on your Instagram feed, I think it's been a while back, but I don't remember the exact quote, but about how fear isn't about the living, but it's about the dying. Do you remember that?
- [42:10]
B
Yes.
- [42:11]
A
That you posted.
- [42:12]
B
All the fear in the world doesn't stop life. No, no. I'm actually gonna look at. It's really good. It's by Lenore Skenazy. And she wrote this book called Free Range Kids, which is about, like, she. She got called America's worst mom because she let her kid go on the subway at age 9 by himself. So she was dubbed America's worst mom. And so she's really been out crusading about kids and freedom and, like, living life. And she says all the fear in the world doesn't prevent death, it prevents life.
- [42:41]
A
Yeah. Deep. It is. Does she have a book about free range adulting? Because I would like that.
- [42:48]
B
It's like, you have to take what she says about kids and like, extrapolate out. It is. I mean, there's a lot there. So they will tell you, you know, you get to live life on your own terms, but really there's a lot of pressures there. So these are good things to be thinking through in terms of the writing. Okay, this was interesting to me. So you have all these different chapters, but then every once in a while it would go like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or at the very end, there's a countdown. So can you tell me, like, why did you do that?
- [43:19]
A
Well, so the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday chapters, which. So because most of them are paced out, right. There's like a little bit more space in between life that happens in between the vignettes. But those five specifically are as this main character is starting out her work life. And so it's kind of about that. I think the Monday is when she actually goes into the office like for the first time. And I think. And I wanted to do that section because for so many of us, so many people like that work life, once you step into that piece that, you know, it is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And so I wanted to create kind of a little bunch that shows like how long that is for her because it's so short day wise. Right. But all that happens within that week because Monday to Friday work week sometimes feels, you know, just like. Sometimes it feels like a whole constellation within itself. Right.
- [44:16]
B
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Yeah, it becomes that is your life.
- [44:19]
A
Yeah. And so that rhythm was the rhythm, I think within the book is really important to me. Like you can definitely open it up and just read a couple vignettes because they go through seasons of the woman's life. Right. And so you can be like, oh, I'm. I want to read sort of where it is in midlife or I want to read about the college, kind of the reflections on that college experience. But if you read it from front to front to back, I feel like hopefully you really get feel sort of that slower rhythm. That pacing was really important to me and I think that that Monday to Friday is a break in that pacing, which I also really wanted.
- [44:55]
B
Ah, interesting.
- [44:56]
A
Yeah.
- [44:56]
B
And it really does stand out. And it really stands out because like on Friday it's like you're setting up your cubicle and it's a really interesting writing because you say like this is the 40 square feet where you're going to spend the next few years of your professional life. The cubicle becomes your world. This little cubicle, everything you do in here, you know, as you're trying and you're striving in your. I like how like. But Thursday you're talking about how it's like, you know, oh, it's like bright eyed, like, oh. It really shows the juxtaposition between the excitement for the new but also the sort of realistic. If you really would play it out, the almost constricting of it. It was really interesting. Right.
- [45:38]
A
I love that you pulled that out. I love that you saw that in there and pulled that out. I don't know if I thought about it like as directly as that.
- [45:44]
B
I love that because Thursday you're like, this is my fresh start, which everybody feels at a new job. And then, you know, in that process of setting up the cubicle, it is the sort of like, this is where I'm going to be for a while in this little, this little spot.
- [45:59]
A
And so many ways, right? It's like that kind of that, that duality is something that we are always having in our life. Like in any routine that we're. Any long term kind of routine that we find ourselves. Right. I feel like for me, there's always times where I wake up and I'm like, all right, I'm going to give it a new go. It's going to feel all fresh and new and like, you know, and. But then sometimes you just show up and you're like, it's just the same as it's been. And that isn't whether you're at work or you're. I mean, our lives are made up of routines, right? And so how, how do we handle those? How do we hold them? Are they like, do we automatically look at it as laborious and limiting or do we find ways to recast it? And some days I feel like that's just easier than others, you know? Yeah, the countdown at the end is really important to me. And I had initially, I had initially thought that it was just going to end on some regular vignettes, like the, you know, the same length. So the countdown, the vignettes get a little bit shorter. And I felt like it was really important to me because the character is coming to a realization in her life. She's coming to that spot that we just talked about of really believing that there's going to be a shift in how she approaches her everyday life and what she measures against and what she lives for. And so I think in times, you know, when we are really honing in on something that's about to change us or transform us. I don't know if you've experienced this, Jenny, but when it's kind of. It starts to be. It feels like kind of all you see a little bit, you know, and the other details fall away. And it's just, you know, those bigger moments in life. And so the. I wanted the countdown to sort of to feel like that, you know, to feel like she's really closing in on something. She's really reaching for something that's going to change her. And we feel the gravity and the importance of that and the fact that the other details that have been so hard for her at other points in life are falling away because she's really focusing in on what she wants and what she's going to be.
- [48:01]
B
That's a really cool part of the, of the book. It really stands out because, you know, the other chapter titles are just like Princess of Tales and the Neighbor's Cat and the Huntress. And then all of a sudden it's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or so. I like that there's the difference in there because it, it really catches your attention and it's a really interesting way to write. I mean, it. It's just very creative. And like, I think when something jumps out at you because it's different, then you know, obviously do just like really notice that I'm like, wait a minute, why is this one called Monday? And then the next one's Tuesday? And so I'm really cool. It's like a countdown to the beginning, which is a really cool.
- [48:37]
A
It's a.
- [48:38]
B
It's a great ending to a book. I want to hit one more topic. There's a lot of topics in here. So the book is called they Will Tell youl the World is Yours on little rebellions and Finding your Way. And each of the chapters starts with they will tell you. They will tell you this, they will tell you that, and just get you sort of thinking about your own life. And then you can take that concept into other parts of your life. But one of the ones was old friends. They will say, old friends are like gold. And you talk about this old boyfriend, the way he would tuck your hair behind your ear so he could see your eyes more clearly. And I thought this was a really big sentence. How he believed you were special before you knew the tricks of making yourself appear that way. I thought that was really important for a lot of reasons. I think just in this particular day and age, Anna, because, you know, I think about, like, obviously people grow and change. Obviously I'm a different person than I was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. But for the most part you're like the same person. You know, like, I am who I am, but. And you'll probably relate as an author then you meet people at different points of life and they view you differently. Maybe because of what you've accomplished or maybe because of what, you know, you have a presence because everyone's got a social media presence. And you know, they say it's like your personal brand. And kids are doing this, right? They have their own, own personal. They're having to do brand management, like talking about being an ad, ad agencies and marketing young kids who are on social media it is brand management. It is. It is a marketing of yourself in your life. And so it's interesting to think about the relationships that you have that didn't include any of that.
- [50:16]
A
Yes, and. Yes. And, you know, with the personal branding, I don't have anything that I think is, like, really, like, a revelation on that other than what I felt in my life and even what I felt with needing to be, you know, more on social media and things for this book of. Of adding layers that you think are projecting, right? You think or projecting what you want and like. And telling people, like, who you. Telling people a lot about who you are or what you're offering and things like that, you know, but in that experience. Experience of really being with people, like, that core experience of being with people. And what I was speaking of in that story, to me is more of that, you know, the high school years, the formative years, you know, which to your point, now, you know, is different because people. The children are more aware of what they're projecting than, like, in my childhood, there was no awareness. There was no need to. I was in a small town in Oklahoma. We were who we were, and that just. That just was what it was. And so I think the idea that you connect with people from that core place of just who you are is something, you know, that I was trying to get at in that, you know, And I specifically was thinking of, like, dating in high school versus, like, dating in my 20s where I was living in New York. And there was just very much of a different, like, hey, these are all, you know, this is. This is where I work, and this is what I do, and these are all the layers of me, you know? But where's the girl that would, like, sit by the lake in Oklahoma? Like, you're gonna have to know me for a while to know that cord. And she's still there. To your point, it's always the same person. But is. Is there the time and are we making the space and intentionally knowing that person, like, knowing the core of that person, like, seeking it out, finding that in new relationships, like, that's a decision that I think we have to make and how we approach the people we meet and how we divvy up our time, you know, like, are we going to sit down from someone and be like, how are you? Who are you? And then make space for whatever that is, you know, and that's just. That's very. That's. That's relationship building versus, like, personal branding, building of the brand. Right? That's just a real Difference.
- [52:33]
B
And as the child had the opportunity to learn the answers to those questions that Google can't answer, which is who are you? And it's a really different day and age. I, I think what I. One of the things I really love then is, you know, they will tell you and you talk about. It's like, you know, little rebellions along the way. But then you get to decide, I do believe that this one's true. Like I actually would believe that that one's true. They will say old friends are like gold. And, and why is that? And it's because, you know, I mean even for myself, it's like when new people enter my life, they positive often they already know a lot about me because I've shared 570 episodes or whatever it is. And that's weird. Yeah, it's weird. Like they, they may know and I, you know, you don't remember who remembers. You don't remember what you talked about. So then I, it's bizarre. It is bizarre. And that's the day and age that we live in. And so there is something to be said about the people who knew you before. So I, I like that. I like the grappling with what do I think about this? They will, you know, they will say location is everything. They will say what's good can always be made better. Is that true? Is it not true? You know, they will say old friends are like gold. So it was really, really a thought provoking and intriguing book. What are the other two books?
- [53:54]
A
The other two books that I've written. Yeah, Just Don't Call Me man was my. The memoir that came out in 2010 and that was, that's the great title. It was about. It's just a collection of essays. It's about me having lived away from Texas and then I came back to Texas for family and things like that. So being called Ma' am because it's.
- [54:18]
B
Because it's like have you. Because it's what happens when you get older.
- [54:22]
A
Yeah. And just that I, Yeah. Having left like left in one sort of stage of life and then come back and been like, wait, you know, I know I have an idea now what this is going to be. So there's that and then the second book that I think is a lot of fun is Copy Girl. And so that's about. It's fiction about. It's based on an ad agency. I wrote it with a friend of mine who I worked with in the ad agency. We co wrote it and just kind of created a fake agency that Had a lot of the. A lot of the sort of things that we had learned to be true about the industry.
- [54:55]
B
So I love it. I love it. Well, Anna, this has been such an honor, and I really enjoyed reading the book. It's called they will tell you the World is yours. And just thinking about all these different parts of life, and I'm excited. I'm interested in reading the other ones. Those are great titles and great topics. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [55:17]
A
We had. I grew up in Louisiana and Oklahoma and Texas, so kind of in that whole area. When we lived in Louisiana, there was a small little bayou that ran. That ran, like, in walking distance to our house. We could go out in the backyard and, like, make our way down to the bayou, which sort of sounds like a country song. I don't know, but I have a lot of. I just have a lot of, like, really happy memories of, like, making my way down there and just, you know, we were just kind of free to accept. Explore the woods that were down there and watch the water flow and just a little tiny bit of moving water, but made a big difference to me.
- [56:00]
B
Sounds like a song. It also sounds like a book title. Make your way down to the bayou.
- [56:06]
A
Oh, I love it, doesn't it?
- [56:08]
B
Yeah. I want to read it, so please write it. Okay. Anna, this has been the best. Thank you so much for being here.
- [56:14]
A
All right, thanks for having me, Jenny.