1KHO 568: Reviving Daring Boys in the Age of Indoor Childhood | Rebekah Lovell, Resurrecting Boyhood

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 568 – Reviving Daring Boys in the Age of Indoor Childhood
Guest: Rebekah Lovell (Author, Boyhood: Igniting a Revival of Daring and Heroic Boys, Resurrecting Boyhood)
Host: Ginny Ertz
Date: September 9, 2025
Network: That Sounds Fun Network

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the crisis of boyhood in modern culture where outdoor play, risk, and adventure are increasingly suppressed. Ginny Ertz and guest Rebekah Lovell—mother of boys and author—discuss why daring, hands-on, and screen-limited childhoods are critical not only for boys’ development but for the joy and strength of families and communities at large. The conversation pulls from Lovell’s new book and her own experiences as a homeschooler and advocate for “resurrecting” boyhood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Connection and Life on the Lovell Farm

• Ginny and Rebekah reminisce about visiting each other's families and the Lovell farm, providing a lived example of "boyhood in action."
  • Notable moment: Ginny observes the Lovell boys’ quick initiative and maturity when a golf cart gets stuck:

    “They’re out of that cart... in a millisecond... They have so much initiative.” (03:01)

• Rebekah emphasizes “training to serve, not be entertained,” and leads by example with daily hands-on family life.

  “We want to train them up from an early age that you're here to serve, not be entertained…” (03:37)

The Reality of Raising Boys in a “Feminized” System

• The system treats boyhood as a pathology:
  • Rebekah’s experience with the public school system starting with her son's preschool speech therapy led to a revelation about standardized systems suppressing boys' innate energy and drive.

  “For the first time in history... [boyhood] is being treated as a disease. It's literally being medicated just because a boy has drive, he has energy...” (08:16)

• Pulling her son from school after unhelpful interventions was hard but necessary.

  “I did have to go before a board... I felt like, yes, I'm an idiot. I'm pulling him out... But I did it and I walked out and I'm like, yeah, that was the right thing.” (11:04–12:42)

Homeschooling as a Family-Centered Alternative

• Homeschooling wasn’t in Rebekah’s original plan—she was raised for a career—but it transformed her family.

  “Home centered life was never on my radar. But it has just been a wild adventure. I love it... There’s always different things going on...” (14:22–16:41)

• Homeschooling gives freedom, flexibility, and time for boys to develop at their own pace, and for families to enjoy life—contrary to expectations.

  “It is counterintuitive... that staying home with your children could give a better life for all of you...” (14:22)
  “Life is fun. And that's one of the sentences I wrote down from the book. You say it was fun.” (16:41)

The Modern Timeline of Boyhood & A Cultural Diagnosis

• Typical path: early daycare and academic pressure → trouble at school → interventions/medication → disengagement → lost drive and increased screen time → failed launch into adulthood.

  “Dr. Leonard Sacks, who wrote Boys Adrift, says that is the biggest risk is their loss of drive. Because sometimes once that leaves, it's really hard to get that back.” (18:46–21:52)

• The system’s “solutions” often stifle boys’ energy and potential, resulting in generational consequences.

Homeschooling’s Challenges, Seasons, and Sacrifices

• Rebekah and Ginny discuss the need for adaptability, sacrifice, and family-centric priorities in opting out of the mainstream.

  “I don't know any homeschool family that doesn't make sacrifices to make it work.” (28:49)

• Acknowledging that homeschooling or home-centeredness looks different across seasons—sometimes parents work, sometimes not—and that the only constant is prioritizing one’s children.

Protecting Boyhood and Its Cost

• The “north star” is the health and well-being of children, which may require swimming against societal currents and making both material and emotional sacrifices.

  “Saving it is a sacrifice, so… however that looks in your home, you are prioritizing that.” (29:09)

Reading Aloud & Outdoor Play: Foundations of Development

• Rebekah’s two biggest recommendations: Read aloud together and play outside—these simple habits lead to “massive shifts” in kids’ demeanor and abilities.

  “Read aloud and play outside. Those two things... will just create massive shifts in your child.” (30:36)

• Unstructured outdoor play builds self-sufficiency, imagination, and the capacity to entertain oneself, which structured institutions and screens erode.
  • Tools: “Quiet playtime” for self-driven creativity (33:49), and the tradition of reading “a thousand books before kindergarten” (46:48).

Risky Play & Raising Daring Boys

• Overprotection kills initiative and adventure; calculated risk is vital.

  “Overly dull children can be the result of overly cautious parents.” (35:46)
  “We want protectors, providers, leaders, lovers, strong, daring men leading our nation one day. And it starts with boys. It starts with the climbing and the jumping and the risk.” (37:40)

• The Lovell boys engage in risky play—like jumping off (one-story) roofs and learning to use hatchets—provided safety has been taught and trust established.

  “My kids are great climbers because I’ve let them climb. Does it still worry me? Of course...” (36:31–37:40)

The Power of Family, Sibling Bonds, and Mentorship

• A home-centered life fosters deeper sibling bonds and systemic, multi-generational change.

  “The power of play as something that can bond the siblings together and the power of being home to bond the siblings together.” (59:08)

Outdoor Reading Club: Fusing Books & Nature

• Rebekah’s “Outdoor Reading Club” encourages families to take books outside, combining two of the most powerful developmental forces.

  “I always want them to be readers and I always want them outside... So I'm like, let's combine the two things.” (45:56)

• Practical tools: free outdoor reading club logs and guidance at outdoorreadingclub.com (50:37).

Change and Direction: It’s Never Too Late

• For parents struggling with regret or feeling it's “too late,” Rebekah offers hope and practical steps:
  • Recognize there’s grace for mistakes.
  • Seek out mentors and positive models.
  • Remove negative environments, gradually re-center family connections, and support the child's interests.

  “There’s grace for that... All is not lost. Even if your child is an older teenager... it can be done.” (53:50)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Initiative and Nature:
  “They have so much initiative. So we were on the golf cart. It gets stuck… they're out of that cart… and they're pushing it and they're pulling it… they didn't have to be asked.”
  —Ginny Ertz (03:01)

• On Systemic Suppression of Boyhood:
  “It's not the boy, it's the system. And so it is just heartbreaking. To see the light go out in boys’ eyes who have been subjected to this over time.”
  —Rebekah Lovell (08:16)

• Homeschooling as Unexpected Joy:
  “I just had no idea what a home centered lifestyle could be like and what a joy and blessing it would be… life is fun. Life is fun.”
  —Ginny Ertz (14:22–16:41)

• Loss of Drive in Boys:
  “Dr. Leonard Sacks, who wrote Boys Adrift, says that is the biggest risk, is their loss of drive. Because sometimes once that leaves, it's really hard to get that back.”
  —Rebekah Lovell (21:52)

• On the Simplicity and Power of Reading and Outdoor Play:
  “The two biggest things I always tell younger parents is just read aloud and play outside. Those two things over time… will just create massive shifts in your child.”
  —Rebekah Lovell (30:36)

• Risk and Adventure:
  “Overly dull children can be the result of overly cautious parents.”
  —Rebekah Lovell (35:46)

• On Late Changes in Parenting:
  “There’s grace for that… All is not lost… If you don’t know what you don’t know at the time, you don’t know it. Just when you find out better, you try step by step to do better.”
  —Rebekah Lovell (53:50)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:01 – Observing initiative and maturity in Rebekah’s boys on the farm
• 08:16 – School system and society stereotype boyhood as a problem
• 14:22 – Transition to homeschool/home-centered life; unexpected joys
• 18:46 – Rebekah describes the "modern timeline" of a boy and its risks
• 21:52 – Discussion on loss of drive and the impact of medication/interventions
• 28:49 – Family sacrifices and real talk about economic/seasonal tradeoffs
• 30:36 – “Read aloud and play outside” – two bedrock parenting recommendations
• 35:46 – Risk, dullness, and the problem with over-protection
• 45:56 – Outdoor Reading Club: fusing books and the outdoors
• 53:50 – Grace for parents starting late; actionable hope
• 59:16 – Power of sibling bonds in home-centered life

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Resources and Further Reading

• Rebekah Lovell:

  • Book: Boyhood: Igniting a Revival of Daring and Heroic Boys
  • Website: outdoorreadingclub.com

• Other Recommendations:

  • Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax
  • The Warrior Poet Way by John Lovell
  • Bud & Me (biographical adventure example)
  • Library’s “1000 Books Before Kindergarten” program

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an energizing call to action for parents (of boys, especially) to reclaim daring, wild, and hands-on childhoods through more time outdoors, family-centered living, and reading aloud. The experiences and practical examples shared by Ginny and Rebekah offer both encouragement and actionable steps for those feeling out-of-step with the “mainstream,” and for anyone suspecting that the road to a full and joyful family life lies off the beaten path.

You can find Rebekah’s book wherever books are sold and connect with her at conferences and through her website.

Transcript

[A]

Fall is about to be in full swing and because it's already starting to get a little chilly in the mornings and evenings, I've been slowly but surely refreshing my wardrobe with pieces that actually work. Things I'll wear on repeat, not just once. That's where Quince comes in. They make it easy to stay warm, look polished and save money, all without sacrificing quality. Speaking of chillier temps, I'm absolutely loving the Mongolian cashmere gloves I recently got because my hands seem to always be cold and I can easily toss them in my purse or backpack just in case the weather changes quickly. I've also been eyeing their wool coats. They look totally designer but cost a fraction of the price. And their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at just $50 and are incredibly soft. What makes Quince different is how smart their model is. They partner directly with ethical top tier factories and cut out the middlemen. So you get luxury quality clothing at half the price of similar brands. It's a wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Honestly, I've even been browsing their bedding and travel bags lately. Quint's is turning into a one stop shop around here. Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and my friend is here today. Rebecca Lovell. Welcome.

[B]

Hi Jenny. Thanks so much.

[A]

It's so fun when it's a person that you've spent time with. We've been to your home and seen your cool farm.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We've done a conference together, a couple conferences. We've been at the same conferences together. Yeah. And you have this wonderful book that just came out. It is called Boyhood Igniting a Revival of Daring and Heroic Boys. It is phenomenal. Rebecca, welcome.

[B]

Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm so excited, Jenny. Appreciate it.

[A]

It was really an interesting experience. We stopped by your house. Wow. Okay. So this was a thing. I actually think this is a thing.

[B]

So.

[A]

So you know how sometimes in life you throw out these ideas of, oh, if we ever swing through what we're gonna swing by. Right. And that's kind of what it was like.

[B]

If you're ever.

[A]

Cuz we really like Buc EE's and you're like, oh, There's a, you know, when we're traveling for work, we swing by because they got a lot of food in there. And anyway, so you were like, well, we live close to one. If you ever are near. And I think it was a situation where it was like, well, tomorrow.

[B]

I'm like, come on, let's go. You're going right past. You might as well.

[A]

I remember asking Josh, I was like, well, they threw it out there. If you're ever going to be near the BUC EE's. And it's tomorrow, so what? And you guys, you had us over for dinner.

[B]

It was wonderful. Love your kids, love your family. Yeah, our kids played. It was. It was very idyllic. It was a great evening.

[A]

It was, it was. And I got to experience your boys in that element and they are phenomenal.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

You know, I. We'd been around you at these conferences, but not out in the wild. And everyone's running around and playing and they play piano and.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And they just have really cool hands on lives. But the thing that really stuck out to me is that they were. They are. They're so. I can't think of what the word is. They're so. They have so much initiative. So we were on the golf cart. It gets stuck.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

They're out of that cart. I mean, in a millisecond. Well, where are they? And they're pushing it and they're pulling it and they're trying to get it out. They didn't have to be asked to open the gate. You know, we're going to be going through the gate. You got to open the gate and then close it so the alpacas don't get out or whatever. There's, you know, and they're just out there, out and they're. And they're doing the things, they're filling the needs and they're young. I was so impressed.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. We work them hard and we want to train them up from an early age that you're here to serve, not be entertained and give back to the family. And then we all get to have a lot of fun together.

[A]

Yeah. And they step in, they step in there. So mature. It's so mature. I just feel like there's such a propensity to be like, I'm not helping. I don't want to help. Do I have to help? Can you open the gate? And they were so willing and eager and quick and it was so natural for them and it was just so wildly apparent.

[B]

Thanks, Jenny.

[A]

So you're the person to write a book like this.

[B]

Well, we love giving farm tours too. We love having people over and just showing them our little corner of the world and having fun. Yeah. It was an honor to have you guys.

[A]

Yeah, it's powerful and it was really cool to read the book through the lens of actually having that time with your family. So talk to us about being a boy mom. You know, you never know. You don't know what kids God's gonna give you and you're this boy mom. And it's an interesting time to be a parent. There are a lot of cultural influences and cultural pushes and you really have to think through how are we going to do this? Can you talk about when did those conversations start? Did they start in pregnancy? Did you have thoughts even before you got married of if I had a son, how would I raise a son? Or did they start kind of at the beginning when they were little toddlers? At what point did your mind start going, how are we going to do this?

[B]

Yeah, well, okay, being married to John, which if your listeners know he lead basically a masculinity, biblical masculinity movement. So he's all things. He's got an army background, faith, family, freedom. So there's like a masculinity there. Right. So when we first had a son, I was like, awesome, like we know how this is going to go. And then our second child also was a son. And so I'm like, great, let's do this. And I was a bit of a tomboy myself up until about 10. So I really, from the get go, loved the fun, the action, the rough and tumble, the play hard, the energy, the go all day atmosphere that a little boy has. And I'd have play dates with other friends and their daughters. Beautiful, wonderful children. But they would, you know, play dolls or play with a dollhouse. And they color, especially the sitting and coloring just blew my mind because my kid is literally climbing the wall or a fence or a tree and I'm like, where gone. He's run off. So I did see early on that this was going to be different. This was going to be a rodeo. But yeah, I think God just put that love in my heart for boys and I just adore them. I adore them and I love them. I love little girls too, but God gave me boys. And so it has just been a wild ride to see how they're wired, what drives them, what motivates them. And it's been really cool just to figure out, okay, what do they need? And I want to figure out exactly what that is. So it's been a lot of giving them more time to develop at their own pace. Right. Sometimes girls develop more quickly, especially in school settings. They can handle more, they can sit down more, they can do more written work. Boys just need to get out their energy sometimes. So just figuring that out as we went. And of course, looking at boy moms who have walked this road before me and saying, ah, what have they done that's worked? Yeah. I've always wanted to have mentors before me and let them figure stuff out too first. Right. So I can see, ah, there is a strong older boy or teen, and I want to see how their mom handled them. So, yeah.

[A]

And you talk about how boyhood is not a disease, which is a really strong statement and kind of wild to have to even make the statement, isn't it? Yeah, it is. So John does, the Warrior Poet Society. Great book, great merch, great, great instructional videos. A lot there. And he's been on the show too, so people can listen back to that episode. But it is this wonderful blend of the warrior and the poet. And you are both really intentional about trying to instill both sides of that into your sons. Can you talk about this statement where you feel like you have to say boyhood is not a disease.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What about culture? Because I think a lot of people think they have to defend boyhood. What is it about culture that's making us feel like we have to defend it?

[B]

Yeah, and I do want to give credit. I believe Matt Walsh said that first, but it just resonates so with our first experience when my son was 4 with the public school system, we went in for speech therapy and it just turned into this almost nightmare of just a standardized system that I realized that my son was going to be crushed in. So I think a lot of school systems and other environments are just suited more towards a feminine regime, I guess. And so they don't want boys, they don't want the energy, the mess, the noise, the dirt. And I just saw right on that how they're wired isn't inherently wrong. Obviously, our creator made them this way, but it's being treated as if it's wrong. And for the first time in history, I mean, the past couple of decades, it's being treated as a disease. It's literally being medicated just because a boy has drive, he has energy, and they're treating boys like they're broken. And it's not the boy, it's the system. And so it is just heartbreaking. To see the light go out in boys eyes who have been subjected to this over time. And I just knew my kid was definitely going to be the one that. They're like, Mrs. Lovell, your child XYZ. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I just saw it coming. I knew it. But we've guarded that, we've protected that. And over time, over these years, where I'm like, I'm going to have to figure this out myself, they have really blossomed into strong young men and that life wasn't crushed out of them. But back at the beginning, like I said, when my son was 4, we're like, what are we going to do? I mean, I was raised in public school. John was public and private. We had not really heard of homeschool. We had a few homeschool students in a student program we worked in. And we were the leaders of that. We saw, wow, these kids are amazing. But it had never occurred to me that I might be in charge one day of my son's education simply to protect his very soul from just being flattened and just, you know, the joy leaving his spirit.

[A]

What an interesting experience, Rebecca, to have had a pre school, not preschool, but preschool experience because of the speech therapy. And what was interesting was you. One of the things that was really interesting is that you talked about how, okay, so you go and you're like, this is a disaster. Like, this is not working well. And of course, you know, you want to make sure your child can. People can understand them. And so you do. We had to do speech therapy. And so you're like, okay, this is a good thing. We're being proactive. And you're like, well, this is a disaster. Like from the beginning, this is not working out well. And you said it was hard to remove him.

[B]

It was hard to remove him. So, yeah, there was the meeting with the administrators, which I always like to just do this. I wanted to just, you know, disappear. I'm sliding down in my seat. I'm almost in tears, but so grateful to my husband. He just cut straight to through the crap. He's like, so you're telling me my kids can't say a few sounds? Great, thanks. We're leaving. Bye. And he pulled me out. And I'm like, yes, he's right now.

[A]

Yes, it's just a few sounds and he's four. It's gonna come.

[B]

He's four. But I was like, wait. I mean, he's not tested. He doesn't have challenges in any other area. It is just speaking, right? I mean, there's so. And since then I've talked with a lot of parents who have had the exact same experience and it's just wild. I mean, I don't know what the goal is if you're just wanting to incarcerate these kids in your system for years on end, dependent on all the interventions and everything you're doing for them, but they could have, it just could have gone so much better. They could have said, yeah, your son has these challenges, but he has progressed and we see this for his future. This could be great. No, it was all just doom and gloom. And by the end of the year, when I did pull him out, I did have to go before a board of, I don't know, six to eight women in there and sign off on. Basically, I felt like, yes, I'm an idiot. I'm pulling him out. I know he needs help. See ya. But I did it and I walked out and I'm like, yeah, that was the right thing. I did it. Figure this out again. I don't know what to do, but we will figure this out.

[A]

Even that, even that. To have to go in front of a board to pull your four year old out of speech therapy like this. Something is off here.

[B]

Something's off, something's off.

[A]

So you do an about face. You have a little bit of this experience with these homeschool families. And so you do talk a lot in the book about homeschooling. You also say there's things that people can pull out of it if they're not homeschooling.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But homeschooling does fix a lot of these things. So you talk about how the things that have been lost, Freedom, a time to build, dream, explore, run, jump, race, roam, you know, yeah, the woods, the fields, the sand, Lots, adventure. And this, this time outside, a lot of that has been lost to the fact that kids are in a building with an average of 22 minutes of recess. That's the average across America. And so a lot of things are lost when we build life like that. So you end up becoming a homeschool mom. And I think it's a great thing to talk about because it's heading into a school year here now, this book comes out in September, so this will go in line with the book. So school may be kicking off where you're at or maybe going for a month.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you may be hating it or, you know, or you may have just embarked on homeschooling because you're like, I'm going to try it. And you're like, this is really hard. But you say that you used to think staying at home all day would be such misery and you say, now I look back and see in my young mind that I just had no idea what a home centered lifestyle could be like and what a joy and blessing it would be. It is counterintuitive. Counterintuitive that staying home with your children could give a better life for all of you, including the parent. Can you explain how that works?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. So I think with a lot of people our age, of our generation, we were raised to be career people, right? And that's fine. I'm not knocking the career, but it had just never occurred to me that possibly, like I mentioned, the best thing for my child would be to put the career aside and just to focus on the child or children. So yeah, it became just this incredible adventure where I keep saying we'll just figure this out and we'll look ahead to our mentors and we'll just, you know, put our faith in God and look at the word and read books and we'll go outside and we will give him time to develop as he's ready to. We'll give him the space to get his energy out and explore and build and play and grow and conquer domain. And they were just flourishing. So each year I would evaluate. Of course I'm not going to be just dead set on this is the one way to go. This is how it has to be. We have evaluated every year if what we're doing is working, if there is a better program or opportunity. But just every year they were thriving. And so there seems to be this formula that boys want to pursue what they're interested in. They want to get their wiggles out and be wild and free. But they also thrive on that discipline. The discipline becomes freedom of all right, let's learn how to work, let's work hard, let's serve others, but we're also going to have a really good time while we do it. But yeah, never saw myself as a homeschool mom. And like you had said, that home centered lifetime was or home centered life was never on my radar. But it has just been a wild adventure. I love it. There's so much to do that domesticity is never boring. It's actually very different every day. There's always different things going on in your home. You learn to make music, you learn to cook, you learn to garden, you take care of animals or whether or not you don't have any of that. You're out at the library you're on field trips, you're on play dates. You're just out doing life. And I think a lot of people are missing that life because they're in a standardized institution and it is robbing our children of their full potential.

[A]

And I think you really did a phenomenal job of explaining then how it is also then fun for the adult, because life is fun. Life is fun. And that's one of the sentences I wrote down from the book. You say it was fun, and I. I mean, I think people would be shocked to be like, homeschooling. I even remember feeling like that when we were at your property. It's like these rolling hills, and I know you had moved there from somewhere else. And it's been a lot of work to kind of get things up and going, but it almost is this realization that we're sold this lie. Like you say, career is exalted above all else. So you're sold this thing and you don't ever really have a chance to try something else out. And then if you do, you're like, oh, this is really different than I thought. Not only is it fun because we're doing all of this life together. Right. But also because it's creating a child who you really enjoy being around.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. And we stick to that good, loving discipline at a good young age, where they're not medicated as their discipline, they are actually given loving correction and guidance and shown, all right, we're not going to behave that way. This is what we expect of you. So we have clear expectations, but it's very loving and we show them the path forward that way. So, yeah, it's been fun when you spend a lot of time with your kids and you're working together in relationship, just being family, which is the heart. Hardest thing we'll ever do, I believe. But it's our legacy. Right. It's the most worthwhile work, is being good at family. But when you're working on that day in and day out, I do believe God blesses that. And so it has been very enjoyable. Very enjoyable.

[A]

He blesses the work of our hands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you just. You end up with a different kid, which is something that you can't really wrap your head around because you don't know how they would be otherwise. But you go through the book, you talk about this modern timeline of a boy, and it's a modern timeline of a lot of children where it's like, okay, well, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about it. What's the sort of the typical Timeline in our culture.

[B]

Yeah. So it seems to be that kids are, you know, taken to daycare before they're even big enough to wear a backpack. The backpacks bigger than them. And again, I don't want to be judgmental of anyone's life choices. Maybe you're working for a time or you've just set a different path, but for me, this is just what I see as a stereotypical path for a boy. So they're at daycare, and soon they start getting in trouble in daycare. They're climbing on the fish tank or they're fighting with foam swords or, I don't know, they're pouring sand somewhere they shouldn't and suddenly it's like, well, it's the problem kid. Which I knew this would be my children. Right? So I'm not saying I've ever had perfect kids. But from daycare, then, they're in academic preschool and academic kindergarten. It's not play based anymore. Kids don't have that time to just play. Play kitchen, play mud pies, jump in mud puddles, you know, throw rocks in a pond. No, it's like letters at 3, let's read at 4. This was never the case in decades past. So kids are being crushed into those expectations by the time they're five, maybe six. Then there's the parent teacher conference of, you know, hi, parents. Your son is really a distraction in class, and we feel that you really need to manage him because he's distracting all the other darlings in the class. And so then you have the official problem child, and you're recommended to go to your pediatrician. And they say, well, yeah, why don't we try this with Timmy for a few years and just see if his attitude and behavior improves. Well, maybe at first it does on the medications, but slowly you start to see he's not playing as much. He has no more initiative. The drive is just gone. Dr. Leonard Sacks, who wrote Boys Adrift, says that is the biggest risk is their loss of drive. Because sometimes once that leaves, it's really hard to get that back. Once that motivation and energy and zest for life is gone. And then by grade school, maybe they're bullied, or maybe they're being the bully. And then by the time they're a teenager, they're just generally unhappy with life. Then you've got the digital world setting in, which is really before that, not teens, but they're online and they're sucked into their digital world. And then they're just there. And then suddenly they're graduating high school, but they don't want to do anything. You know, they're just doing a clerical job. They stay home, they don't launch, they're in your basement forever. And we're like, well, what happened to Timmy? He had so much potential. I think that's what happened to Timmy. It was, you know, the feminist education regime and it was our standardized institution institutions and it was all the things that pushed and prodded him. And parent you fell for I did too. And so we're like, well, we got to do this to fix him. But suddenly he's just not what he was or what he could have been. And it's so sad. This is a whole generation of boys and young men and our future men that should be leading our nation as protectors and providers that are being stunted.

[A]

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[B]

Meanwhile, the girls. And we love girls, right? I'm a girl, you're a girl, we love girls. We want women to succeed, but it just seems like everything is bent towards them and the boys are being left behind.

[A]

Yeah, and we're bending the women toward the wrong thing too. So it's this kind of a mess, right? Trying to put these girls on this career path that may be really unfulfilling for them. And they may look back and say, I hate that I did that. I hate. And, and I do. I think that there's not necessarily an easy answer. I talked to this mom, a mom I just adore, and she homeschooled her six kids and the youngest ones, I think, are just now graduating. And she said, it is really hard.

[B]

It is hard.

[A]

You know, how, how much do you push your girls? Because you know, if there's some high powered something making X amount of money, it might be really hard for them to leave that behind and, or leave parts of it behind and be home with their kids. But then they might not. Maybe they don't get married at all. Like, you just, you don't really know. But overall, there are these really big cultural pushes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you have to read books like yours and the Warrior Poet way, and you have to determine for yourself what kind of a family do we want to have for us and for our kids, as opposed to just being pushed along on this whim of whatever some other people's voices are telling you. And you have to really think it through. You say, homeschooling from the beginning has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Wow, what a thing. And that's.

[B]

Never saw that coming. I remember when I was a young newlywed and I had a older friend that was a stay at home mom, and I thought, wow, she's so super smart and she's just so gifted and an amazing woman, but she's home with her children. I thought, huh, that's pretty weird. And I watched her for a few years and then I was like, I love her life. And yeah, it's been people who have gone before me like that who have led the way that have shown me, you know, it's not just a career. You don't have to only do that. There's so much more. And just investing into your family. When your family gets your 100%, it just unlocks something really special. So again, I don't want to hate on people that are working. Or maybe you're working for a season.

[A]

Well, because you're working. I mean, you'll be told we are both working.

[B]

Yes, we are.

[A]

You wrote a book and you're here on a podcast.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

There are ways.

[B]

There are ways.

[A]

Do you. There's ways for it to be family enhancing. And you have to. And I don't know, I don't. I wouldn't say I even know the key to figuring that out.

[B]

Right. We don't. None of us do. But.

[A]

And also Your kids are not too.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And neither are mine.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so there's something to be said.

[B]

About seasons, different seasons, what they require. Yeah, I did definitely work from home when my boys were toddlers. I talk about that in the book too. I would make another pot of coffee at 5pm and stay up till after midnight. I worked in PR and so I kind of did two things. I mommed all day and then I did my work until I collapsed at night. So that was a season as well. And sometimes you just make those sacrifices. We've lived in small homes. We've always driven older cars. We don't buy brand new cars. You just make these choices to make it work. I don't know any homeschool family that doesn't make sense. Sacrifices to make it work.

[A]

And I think you do. You live seasonality. And that's different. That's different than a system that's the same year over year. You're saying, what does our family really need this year? And so I might need to make a little extra money. I might need to make all the money. And we're going to do some swapping here. But your goal is to protect boyhood.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And what you say is saving it is a sacrifice, so.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Well, however that looks in your home, you are prioritizing that. That, that is sort of. The North Star is prioritizing the health and well being of our children. And along the way you often end up with a better life yourself, which is a fantastic thing. And also it is easier to be. I don't know. I don't know if this is the truth or not. I'm going to say. I'll say it this way.

[B]

Say it. We'll figure it out.

[A]

So the timeline piece matters because you say, you know, you talk about how so often these kids get lost to their screens. Yeah, they can get lost to their screens as they get older. And that, that creates a different child that you might not enjoy being around as much. And that would change the whole experience. Our kids, we tried, we were trying to get together to do whitewater rafting.

[B]

Yeah, we both love SD Smith.

[A]

Yeah, we both love SD Smith. Sam Smith, author of the Green Ember series and many other wonderful books. He's like a midway point between the two of us. And we were like, well, we could go on this whitewater rafting trip in West Virginia. And it's like our kids were like, oh, we loved hanging out with those boys. You know, it's A gift for their whole future, for them to be this person that other people like to spend time with and you then. And it's hard to imagine like when you've got a four year old and they're crying and you know, and they're really cute, but they're hard. And you can't hardly imagine that at 14, this is going to be a really fun person to hang around, right?

[B]

That's right. Yeah. And we had those hard years and I talk about that in the book too. I definitely had a strong willed child for years and years and by God's grace we got through that. And on the other side of it, and I wanted to recommend and give this pointer. Regardless of your education choices, the two biggest things I always tell younger parents is just read aloud and play outside. Those two things over time, over incremental time will just create massive shifts in your child. If you can rearrange your schedule, your priorities, whatever you've got going, whatever education choices you've made, if you read aloud more, you dive into books more, make them an adventure together. And you just get outside, whether it's chores or you're going on a camping trip or you're going on a hike, whatever it is, just send your child out in the backyard and say, don't come in. Like, right. For us as 80s children, we'd be locked out of the house or just gone the whole day. That's really good. You can speak to that a thousand hours outside. I mentioned you in the book and I talk about you when we speak at these conferences. It is just brilliant. Your kids need more time outside and you need to read together, period. Those two things can create massive shifts in your child.

[A]

Massive. Because they hit all of these problems. They all these problems of a loss of freedom and not having the opportunity to be bold and daring and adventurous. Because they can do those things outside, but they can also do them through stories. And it makes a huge difference. It's these small things really that make such a large difference moving forward. And it will make your life better too. It's really just such a surprising, wonderful thing that when you save boyhood, you're also saving yourself, I think in return. So that I stole that, I stole that from Kim Jong.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That wasn't mine. Okay, so you're talking about read aloud, playing outside. Play is a big part of the book. And you talk about then how the play actually helps with the parenting because you talk about kids who have not learned the skill of entertaining themselves and are always looking for stimulation from You.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. I've known kids that, you know, I'll watch them play, and it's just five minutes here, and then they run to the next thing. Ten minutes here, and then I'm bored. Nope, we do that. You. You've got to learn this skill of entertain yourself. Right. Again, like we did as kids. But now in this generation, there's so much entertainment and so many opportunities. Kids are just like, what's the next thing? Entertain me. But I heard about this thing, and I did it when my boys were younger. Once they quit napping, which sadly, was way younger than I had hoped for.

[A]

Like, I mean, seriously, why can't stop napping at, like, 15 months?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I would meet these people that their kids were like, kindergarten age.

[B]

Yeah. Still napping.

[A]

And they're like, still napping, and they only have two hours in the afternoon. I was like, what? I don't know. Maybe I did something wrong, though. I. I don't know. I was with none of my kids. None of my kids are good nappers. They just wanted to do stuff.

[B]

Exactly. So. But we would do this thing for my sanity called, I would call it Quiet Playtime. So after lunch, you go into your own space. So if you don't have enough rooms, put one on the front porch or put one in the living room. Put one in the, you know, their own bedroom. But they can get out a train set or they can look at board books, depending on how young they are. This is probably. I said three. Probably four. Three, four and up. So it's. They can do anything they want for about an hour. Right. And this is also really good for siblings because it's one hour. They don't have to share toys. And you're not, you know, intervening in any fights or squabbles. There's nothing. There's no parenting. And they're not having to be a sibling. They just learn to play quietly for themselves for about an hour, and then everyone resets. So it's lunch, quiet playtime, and then we get back together. But also over the years with that pattern of, let's make more space and time into our schedule. If a kid knows that they sit down to play and they don't only have five minutes, they have an hour. They're going to get more invested. They're going to start not only setting up the train track, but then they add Lincoln Logs, then they add the animal figures, Then they've written a story about the train in the Wild West. I mean, it just builds their creativity and Imagination. But I think today kids are what Anthony Esalen, that author, says, they're scheduled into submission. So there's no time. There's no time to do anything. If it's not school all day, then they're whisked away to the next activity, piano, soccer, whatever it be. And I think some activities are good, but not all the activities. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You can just see through that, like how that would be so wonderful for their imagination and for their creativity. So you talk about that kind of play. You also talk about the risky kind of play. And you had this sentence overly, Here we go.

[B]

Do it.

[A]

Overly dull children can be the result of overly cautious parents. And I think it's such a tricky thing, Rebecca, because nobody wants to raise a dull child. No, but there's fear there. And so we just err on the side of caution. And there's a lot of pressure. I, you know, you read the book and you just realize how much cultural pressure there is. I think, I'm sure a lot of this audience who's listening can think of a time when they've been at a park and their kid has been up in the tree or up on the thing, or they're, they seem really little, but they're climbing and other parents are stepping in. And so there is a pressure to be an overly cautious parent, but we don't really think downstream, far enough to think about what does that do to a child long term?

[B]

Yes. And I had a friend say to me once, well, if you're not really worrying, then you're not loving them. I think that's totally the wrong mindset. We want to be cautious and have common sense and take care of our child. But we don't want to helicopter smother them so that when they're on their own two feet one day, they're just like, eh, I'm bored. There's no adventure, there's no daring. There's no conquest. Everything's been done and I'll just wait for entertainment. That's what we don't want. We want the kid who's like, you know what? Mom says I'm a good climber. I'm going to go a little higher this time. Right. And so when they're young, I'm watching, I'm like, all right, now that, that is too high. You did great. Come back. And then we try it the next day. But that's how my kids are great climbers because I've let them climb. Does it still worry me? Of course. And there's common sense and caution, but they're excited to do risky things. I talk about in the book, they even jump off the roof sometimes. That sounds nuts to you, I know, but I only let them do that when John's home and it's a one story drop and they're just doing crazy things and so far it's all worked out.

[A]

I would like to know more about the jumping off the roof.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So in our upstairs there's a window that opens to the roof and it's really not that far down. But they're like, dad, can we jump off and can we shoot off the roof? And so much to my surprise, one day I hear John yell out, yeah, go ahead buddy. And I'm like, what? But that's just how they roll. And they're, you know, shooting off fireworks and GI Joe missions and they're rolling down the hill with the dog and they're just full speed, full adventure ahead. And I have dear friends I love and adore, who I have seen over time. Their sons just, they don't have that. They don't have that drive. Now, I'm not comparing personalities, but I think if you do over, guard, over, protect for too long, the kid is like, well, I'm not allowed to do that. I'm never going to try. And that is forming the kind of man that when they're leading a family one day, then they're still going to have that mentality. It's not going anywhere. That's not good. We want protectors, providers, leaders, lovers, strong, daring men leading our nation one day. And it starts with boys. It starts with the climbing and the jumping and the risk.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that as a parent, you are the one that is assessing that and learning. It builds year by year. It builds day by day, week by week, year over year. And then you have a good sense of what they can do, what they can't do. Which is sometimes why I think when grandparents step in, it can be tricky because the grandparent is a little bit more scared because maybe they haven't seen that growth. Maybe it's been a month since they've ventured with that child. And so as a parent, you know, if you're there with them day by day, then you start to see, well, that's how high they went last time and they're going a little bit higher this time. And you, you just, you build trust. As they build trust in themselves, you build trust in them as well. And then, then you learn to trust yourself as a parent and you don't end up with an overly dull child.

[B]

Yeah, I remember the first time John showed them how to use hatchets and was like, all right, y' all go out and build a fort now. And I was like, really? You're gonna. Okay. And I was imagining my children with only like eight fingers or you know, what if they get a gash in their leg? But, you know, they have learned, they've been shown the safety rules, they're trustworthy children. They haven't, you know, compromised our trust in any way. So they get to go in the woods with hatchets and they've built forts and they chop logs and they build little boats. They sail on the pond with dangerous tools. But we did also just take the warrior poet, a medical class two weeks ago. Like two eight hour days so we can stop hemorrhaging and you know, like put on a tourniquet and. Which makes me feel better because we're a little further from the hospital. But it's all these good things, building manhood, which I will point out, this is how it was for decades past. For centuries past, men and boys were doing dangerous, fun, risky things at young ages, forever. It's only a recent modern thing that we're over protecting them. I also love. I love studying ancient history and I love thinking about that Spartans, they were sent to war School at 7. So I'm always like, boys, if the Spartans were sent to war School at 7, you can fill in the blank. Like, I don't want to hear it. Toughen up. Right? So there's that good tough love as well, where we've actually pushed them in that direction. Like, hey, we want you to be caring and compassionate and loving and a protector, but you better be tough as well.

[A]

There is this book that Andrew Putawa told me about. It's called Bud and Me, and I think it's about. I never. I got it, but I never read it. And I'm not going to remember the exact ages, but it's about. I'm pretty sure it's about two brothers and they would go off on their horse to all of these neighboring towns. And I think they were like 6 and 8 or on their horse and, like, there's no cell phone, you know, off they go. So the differences of what kids were allowed to do and did do and had the freedom to do and the confidence that that built is so different from today. And you could see how being trusted with a hatchet, you could see how that would do a lot for a boy internally. Like, I'm trusted, I'm competent, I'm confident, I can do this. And they naturally want to be safe. They're not. They don't want to chop their own finger off.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. They're not fighting with hatchets yet.

[A]

No. Yeah. They're careful. They know. They know to be careful. So it's so interesting, though, to talk about. This is what I love about what you do. You're going to talk about the hatchets, you're going to talk about jumping off the roof, and then you're going to also say, we do an outdoor reading club.

[B]

Yes, that's right. It's my two very favorite things. And I got this idea walking in the woods one day and my kids, well, my husband too, everyone makes fun of me because one day I said, you know, being outside really recharges me. And I can't believe I brought this up because they're going to keep teasing me, but they say that all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, mom, does being outside recharge you? Like, they're always making fun of me, but it's so true. So. And I was a reading nerd as a kid, and one of the things we found When John Lucas was in that crazy preschool age, we did go to the public library and they had this program called A Thousand Books Before Kindergarten. And we. Did you have that at your library?

[A]

They have, yeah, I've seen it. And they've got a chart up on the.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which is just a thousand. You could read a thousand books in one year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you did three a day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Three children's books.

[B]

Yeah. And I love that you could repeat the books. Like, if your kid is really into Good My Good Night Moon, read it three times and put it down. That counts. And then they turn in the 25 book list and at the library and they get to go home with a new picture book. They were actually giving out books to keep little paperbacks. So we got really into that. And then I was thinking, I always want them to be readers and I always want them outside. You know, like, I'm constantly like, what are you doing in here? Go outside. And so I'm like, let's combine the two things. So now if they're into a book, I'm like, go read that outside. So we hang up the hammock or they're on the deck or they're out in a tree or just whatever. I think it is so much more of an experience. You're really immersed in the story when you have the whole outside world around you. Like the way the sun is on your book or there's a nice breeze or you hear birds or there's an acorn hits you in the head. That happened. It's just a lot more memorable to be out there. So it can be just the kid. It could be siblings. It could be you and the kids. It could be a whole group of people. We're actually going to have a book club this fall with some other families, and so I'm hoping we can all do that outdoors, too.

[A]

Tell us more about the book club.

[B]

Okay, so outdoor reading club is just an idea to get your kids outside with their books and you can decide your own own goals and prizes. So for us, we've set a prize that the boys are excited about, and we've set a time frame. We're doing about 60 days and they're writing down their chapter books, but it can be tailored to any age, any format you want. If you've got two and three year olds or your kids are very young, or they're not even reading yet, like I said, you write down each book that you've read to them, even if it's the same ones over and over. And maybe at the end of the month or however long of a time period you set, you go for ice cream and you're like, all right, guys, this is the ice cream. Look, we finished our book log. And they're celebrating that and they're getting excited about reading too. And I love that John said the other day, he's like, you know, I'm just not above bribing my kids to be better educated because we're not. We've always given candy at the end of a math lesson too. I'm just not above it. Right. So they know there's a reward and that's good. That's very motivating. But yeah, we have kind of become a book club culture type of family. John has been wonderful to read to them nearly every night since they were very young. So we've gone into books together and we've made chapter books a huge deal when they first started them, Magic Treehouse, like, we go to Goodwill and find all the additions. They're like a dollar fifty. And we're like, wow, look at you. You've built the whole set. And we just treasure these on their bookshelves. It's an experience. Yeah. We just got rid of some picture books last year. We're like, all right, we should clean out the preschool books out of your room. And it was sad. It was like moving friends into a box in the attic closet because those books just come become such a treasured part of your family. But you move on to new books, new experiences as they, as they grow. But I really, I really adore what you're doing. Jenny, you have inspired us with a thousand hours outside. Absolutely, 100%. It is such a priority to get outside every day, no matter the weather. And I love what you're doing. I love that about your movement.

[A]

Take your books, take your books out there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you've got resources families can use.

[B]

Yes, that's right. If you go on to outdoorreadingclub.com you can download the free club book log. And I'm going to be putting up more examples of the filled out logs if you need help with that soon. But it's just a fun, free initiative. Decide your own prize, decide your own time frame. Get your family reading outside. You won't regret it. You'll never say, I spent too much time reading and I was outside too long. You just, you won't have those regrets.

[A]

And I think that in today's culture, this is what I believe firmly, I think you have to be a reader if you're going to determine the direction you want your life to go. I think you have to be, because otherwise you just end up going along in the current of what someone else has decided, and you don't actually make your own decisions. And so all of my. None of it's come from me. None of it's been like, oh, this light bulb went off and I just figured out my own life. No, it's come from other people that I've read. And so to have that habit of reading, even if it's like all fiction and picture books, it's just a habit of reading and enjoyment of reading that ends up changing your life in the long term in a lot of different ways. More ways than you could ever think. I've read 110 books so far this year.

[B]

I love that Josh mentioned you had read a ton. You are amazing. That's a big deal.

[A]

It's a big deal. And it gives me something to think about, and it gives me something to talk about, and it has given me a foundation for how to build our life. So then you have an idea, like outdoor reading club. Or you read a book like this, and you're like, oh, I, you know, I hadn't thought of this certain thing you talk about. Like, there's a really cool idea in here about making favorite books and event in your. So you get all of these different ideas. You have a ton of book recommendations in this book on page 144. So the book is called Boyhood Resurrected. And you just get ideas, and it changes your whole life. So I love this. I love the pairing of the outdoor time and the books and community.

[B]

Yes, yes. That's right. Yes.

[A]

Everything. It's all you need.

[B]

That's right. Do it with friends, do it with family, do it with siblings. It's great. Yeah, you can't lose.

[A]

Okay, so you're talking boyhood resurrected about childhood ending earlier. So you talk about kids being forced to enter the adult world earlier and then also school starting younger. You had talked about how school, I mean, kindergarten didn't even exist at all in 1950, less than 100 years ago. Yeah, kindergarten did not exist. So kids were starting in first grade. Most of them are already seven. So they're starting school later. And when kindergarten did come in, it was mostly play. So in a lot of ways, we are losing this early childhood, this age of wonder, birth to eight. And so sometimes people come across this information and they think it's too late. So you do address this in your book, and I think it's a Wonderful thing. You address a starting over, you address a direction change. Can you talk to the parent? Because I. I think part of the problem is, is when you live in a culture, you may not know that the message you're receiving is a cultural message. And maybe you wanted to do it different. You just didn't know to talk to the parent who feels like, gosh, it's a little bit too late.

[B]

Got you. Yeah. And I've had people come up to me at conferences and say that very thing and ask with tears in their eyes. And I immediately think of some mistakes I made early on in parenting. And I was talking to a friend and she just reassured me and she said, there's grace for that. And it was just such an overwhelming comfort that if you don't know what you don't know at the time, you don't know it. Just when you find out better, you try step by step to do better. So all is not lost. Even if your child is an older teenager, which I've talked to parents about before and I do mention in the book, I feel like John and I parented teenagers before we even had kids because we worked in a student program where we lived with them, same building guys for two years and then down the street the next two years. But I have been with the teenagers for years. But even if your son is a teenager and you feel like I've missed out the lights out in his eyes, there is hope. I think just starting with that grace, with the patience with yourself, thinking, all right, what families around me personally do. I know that I admire how their sons are turning out. I admire them. Even their marriage. You have to look at their marriage too, because that pours into the children. Who can I start to kind of lean more into? Are there people at my church that could pour more into my son? You start picking out, all right, I need mentors for him also. Maybe you're pulling him out of whatever environment it was. Maybe it was a standardized institution he was in of whatever educational type. Maybe you need to figure out something else. There's boys only, co ops. There's hybrid programs. You don't have to go straight from all day, every day school to, oh my, it's just me at home with him, homeschooling now. No, there's way more middle of the road opportunities. So it's these slow little changes. But get him out of the environment, get him mentors. But also with that loving, caring grace in your parenting, start to set those limits, eliminate more screen time. Really try to help him Figure out what are your interests, what are you interested in? And you pour yourself into that with him. Maybe it's planes. Maybe he wants to get a pilot license. Maybe he likes animals and wants to work at the vet clinic. Whatever it is, figure out what he's interested in and go 100% in that direction while you're slowly establishing your family again as one of the main influences in his life, establishing more of a family culture around him instead of, all right, he's here all day, then he's there all day. I only see him in the morning and at night, slowly, you're becoming more of a family unit again. Little by little, it can be done. Yeah.

[A]

And you could see how no matter how you structure childhood, there are benefits. Like, so, for example, we've always homeschooled. You had your experience, you know, at age 4 with the speech therapy. So it becomes like this blessing because you're like, well, I knew what we were getting into, so I knew what decision to make. So you could start that way. Or then there's people that say, look, we did four years of it, and there was bullying. Or it just took up too much of our time and our family was exhausted and the homework was too much. Or there's benefits to both, and there are benefits to an older child to have some insight into why you made some changes. Why are you parenting differently? So I think you could lean into that. You could lean into this change, because life is about change. And you don't know everything. No one ever knows everything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're always going to be changing, and you're always going to be a little regretful of, I wish I would have known that sooner. I would have done things differently. And so in some ways, you're training your child to understand that that's how life is. And so no matter what age and stage you come across this information and you want to make changes, you do it. And if they're older, you have the opportunity to model to them.

[B]

That's great. I love that.

[A]

How to do it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. So you. You just really discussed it in this book. It's not too late, and you can start over. It's wonderful. It's called Boyhood Resurrected, Igniting a Revival of Daring and Heroic Boys. A super cool cover. It is out now. If you're listening to this, you can go grab your copy. We are reviving boyhood because you talk about how boyhood is dead, and you constantly hear these people that come up to you and say, my son isn't doing well. What Do I do. And so the answers are in here. And it's going to do a lot for you as a person, as a parent. It's going to do so much for your kids, and then it's going to have a generational impact. You talk about how you grew up in the middle of nowhere, running outside, playing barefoot, plenty of room to roam. We always end our show with the same question. Can you tell us a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[B]

Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, I remember being out in the pasture in the woods near my home and just laying on top of a hay bale and looking at the sky. So I was often outside alone, and that was all right. I had one sibling, much older, and it was just me in the woods a lot in the dirt road, and that was really cool. I'm grateful for those years. It's really fun.

[A]

Well, now your brothers, your. Your boys have each other as brothers.

[B]

They have each other.

[A]

Really cool for you to see. And you do talk about that in the back book as well. The power of play as something that can bond the siblings together.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

And the power of being home to bond the siblings together. It's a powerful thing to have that strong sibling friendship. Rebecca, if people ever have an opportunity to come listen to you at a conference, you are phenomenal. You're speaking about all these topics in person, and I know you speak all over the country. I so appreciate you being here, and I love the book.

[B]

I appreciate you. Jenny, thanks so much than this has been a wild, fun time. Great conversation. Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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