← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 574: Raising Daughters Who Stand Strong in an Age of Instant Influence | Kari Kampikas, Is Your Daughter Ready?
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- [00:01]
A
Fall is about to be in full swing and because it's already starting to get a little chilly in the mornings and evenings, I've been slowly but surely refreshing my wardrobe with pieces that actually work. Things I'll wear on repeat, not just once. That's where Quince comes in. They make it easy to stay warm, look polished and save money, all without sacrificing quality. Speaking of chillier temps, I'm absolutely loving the Mongolian cashmere gloves I recently got because my hands seem to always be cold and I can easily toss them in my purse or backpack just in case the weather changes quickly. I've also been eyeing their wool coats. They look totally designer but cost a fraction of the price. And their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at just $50 and are incredibly soft. What makes Quince different is how smart their model is. They partner directly with ethical top tier factories and cut out the middlemen so you get luxury quality clothing at half the price of similar brands. It's a wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Honestly, I've even been browsing their bedding and travel bags lately. Quint's is turning into a one stop shop around here. Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a new friend. I love making new friends. Carrie Campakis is here with us today. She has a new book coming out about daughters. Is your daughter ready? 10 Ways to Empower your girl for an age of new challenges. Welcome, Carrie.
- [01:31]
B
Thanks for having me and huge congrats.
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A
This is book number seven.
- [01:35]
B
Yes. Yes. Book number six.
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A
Book number six. Okay, I messed up book number six. So tell us. Okay, tell us about the other ones.
- [01:43]
B
Okay, so the first two were for teenage girls. First one was 10 Ultimate Truths Girls should know. Second one was light. Whose approval are you living for? Had a little break in there. I was kind of tired after those two books. And then I wrote two books for moms. The first one was about parenting your teenage daughter while loving your teenage daughter. And it's called Love her well. And then after that, I released More Than a Mom. Another little gap there. And then this past January, I released a devo for girls called yours, not hers. 40 devotions to stop comparisons and love your life.
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A
And then. This is the sixth one.
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B
This is the sixth one? Yes.
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A
Wow. You had said something about how you had a post go viral or something like that, and that's sort of how you got into your writing career. What happened?
- [02:26]
B
Well, it was back in. I guess it was 2013. It was when blogs were really starting to take off. And at the time, I'd been writing for seven years, you know, just trying to query New York agents. And I always tell people, like, I just love to write. That was my passion. But, you know, back before when I started, the Internet wasn't a thing. I mean, social media wasn't a thing. So it was interesting that what finally opened the door was I had a blog post go viral. And then that led Thomas Nelson to reach out to me about a month later, wanting to turn that blog post into a book. And so that's what I tell people. I'm like, you know, just follow your passion because you never know what's going to open the door. It didn't even exist when I started writing, and I had no idea that that's how the story would unfold. But, you know, I found out later that it had been 10 years since they'd had a book for teenage girls, so they were in the market and they were looking for something to begin with. So a lot of it was the timing, too. So anyway, it was worth the wait. But it was a painful seven years trying to. To do that work, trying to get published. And it came about in a totally than I expected.
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A
Wow, that's so interesting. It took that long. And now this book is also with Thomas Nelson, so. Or am I wrong? Nope. This book is with W. Oh, that is. That is an imprint of Thomas Nelson.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So it has just become a thing, like book after book after book. That's wonderful. What was the blog post?
- [03:40]
B
The blog post, I believe it was called 10 Things Teenage Girls Should Know. And. And it was, like I said, it was my first blog post to go viral. And back then it was so exciting. You know, the Internet was so different and so. But I knew that I was going to turn it into a book. It was the first thing that I. That just resonated with a lot of people. And I was not only hearing from moms, I was hearing from a lot of dads too, that they were like, thank you for this. I'm going to say this for my daughter. I wish you would turn it into a book. And so you know how they're just. It's just interesting. You Create content. And you just never really know what's going to strike a chord or what won't. And, you know, sometimes what we think is going to resonate isn't what resonates. And then. So this was kind of a surprise. I'd. I'd actually, it was the middle of summer and I needed something from my blog and I'd done a talk earlier that year at a middle school, and so I just like, I was like, I'll just take that middle school talk and turn it into a blog post. So all of it was like kind of an accident the way it happened, but it, but it's great because I'm such a planner and I'm. I tend to try to want to control things. So it was really fun for me to just, you know, be like, you know what? This is better that I don't have to control my life. Just do what you're called to do, do what you feel passionate about, and the right doors will open.
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A
And what amazing insight that there are so many families that are looking for information for their daughters. Like you said, it had been 10 years. So this book comes out and you're, you know, at this point, you're in the information age. There's cell phones, you know, all of these things are starting to explode. Social media. And so really there's an. A lot of need for this type of content for parents and for their daughters because things are so rapidly changing. And that's what this book, the subtitle is for an age of new challenges. And there are a lot of new challenges. Can you talk about then seeing that? I mean, you would have seen that real time. You're kind of right up in the front lines. If you're a writer and you're looking at the changes in the trends, like over the last 10 to 15 years, what are you seeing?
- [05:34]
B
You know, I really, I would really say, you know, and having four daughters myself. My youngest is 15 and my oldest is 22, almost 23. So, I mean, I tell these young moms, I have such a heart for these moms behind me. Like, I think it's harder for them than even I had it five or 10 years ago because, you know, I tell them, we had our own challenges. We were the pioneers of social media. You know, we didn't know, we didn't know the damage that social media would do or being the addiction that they would have to cell phones because we were so new at it. But I think the difference I see now is that it's all been around for longer. And it's been corrupted and kind of twisted in a lot of new ways. And the kids are asking for it a lot younger because my oldest daughter was in first grade. The first time I even heard about a cell phone. And so in that Apple cell phone. Isn't that funny? And so, you know, we had blackberries before then, but I remember being at dinner and a friend telling me, carrie, you would love this new phone that my friend has. And you know, you can text instantly. And all the, all these little features that it had. I know it funny looking back. And so, you know, her grade, they weren't begging for it by third grade and fourth grade. And so it just, it changed so much even by the time I had my fourth daughter. So I think just the kids are growing up a lot faster. You know, something else that I see and I've seen in my community is I feel like it makes me sad. I feel like not only the innocence of childhood, but just kids, that freedom to be yourself. You know, we live near a junior high and I will never forget when my kids were in elementary school. I would go to the elementary school and these kids were all like, dressed very uniquely. I mean, sometimes my kids look back on my pictures of what I let them wear from justice and they're like, mom, why did you let me wear that T shirt? I'm like, because, you know, I was picking my battles. I know it's hot pink and it's ugly, but you liked it. So they just weren't so self conscious. But they were just, they had their personality. You know, we're not scared to be unique. And I'd see these kids walk into the middle school and they suddenly look like clones of each other. And you're like, what happened between the little kids who weren't so self conscious in the middle schoolers? But now what I'm seeing, I'm seeing these little kids. It's like, you know, second and third graders, and they're dressed like the college girls, you know, the monochromat. And they look adorable, but it kind of makes me sad. I'm like, you're missing out on the whole fun of childhood, of having ugly pictures of your clothing to look back on. Like, mom, why did you let me wear those ugly jeans? Or, you know, that T shirt from Target that my kids didn't think twice about that because they weren't so self conscious. I think they weren't constantly flooded with images of what the older kids were doing or what they wanted, you know, what they wanted in their life because it was coming down the pipeline. So it just, it makes me sad that they, I feel like a little bit of childhood has been shortened, you know, and so it's something we really have to protect parents.
- [08:08]
A
That whole self expression that's so intriguing and it really is so fast. You're talking about. Your oldest is 22 and you say in, in her first grade. I mean that's not that long ago. I know that she was in first grade and you'd never even heard of an iPhone. And now in just these 10, 12, 14 years, then you've got these little girls who are somehow getting their fashion sense and what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to look and this big conformity engine is affecting their actual choices and their self expression and the fun clothes that they could wear as really young girls.
- [08:45]
B
Yeah. You know, and Even my, my 9th grader, she's now actually a 10th grader. She, you know, babysits a lot for these adorable girls. But it's just, it's crazy to me that even the girls in like fourth or fifth grade, they all have the refrigerators now and just it's stocked full of Sephora products and all these beauty products and like even she didn't have that temptation. Like they weren't being peddled. All these. I felt like I'm very lucky. I'm glad I was parenting when I, when I was, but it seems so hard at the time. But I feel like it's becoming more and more so everything is just trickling down sooner and sooner and, and even have a friend that she does ministry in Louisiana and she was talking about these girls in her Sunday school class and she's like, they're in eighth grade and they're dying for boyfriends because they want to take couple photos around town. They've seen the girls taking their engagement photos and all these different places and they want a boyfriend in 8th grade to go do this. And I think that's, you know, when we're constant looking at screens and we're constantly, you know, we've always been inclined, I think, to look at those people ahead of us, whether we're moms or little girls, whatever, you're kind of like looking ahead of you. But I think now that there's so much just flooding their, the pipeline and there's so much coming at them and our children and sometimes they can really use their uniqueness and their authenticity of what makes them special and what they really like. They don't really develop, you know, their own taste or their own voice. And, and that's something, like I said, I think we need to protect as parents and help them figure out for themselves.
- [10:12]
A
It's a lot to grapple with, that's for sure. And like you said, the social media and the screen based technologies are just becoming more powerful and more addictive. And so all the more to be reading books like yours and to be aware of what's going on or to think ahead of what might be the consequences, even though we might not know exactly what they are now because it hasn't happened yet, but you can kind of think ahead. And that's what we should have done with social media. But what's interesting is, to your point, it's changed. So Instagram has really changed. And so if a parent maybe gave that to their kid under the auspices of what it was like in 2017 and by 2019, it's wildly different. And those are really tricky situations to have to navigate. It's interesting that the book is called is your daughter ready? Because you're kind of thinking, well, you know, are they ready for when they leave home and they head out into the adult world? But really there's a sense of are they ready at all of these different ages and stages? You know, are they ready to combat the pressures of second grade? You know, are they, are they ready to deal with the things that are going on in middle school? So you cover up lot of incredible topics in this book. One of the things that you talk about is trying to not, like you kind of have to space it out. And I know it's a really interesting thing, Carrie. Like, our oldest is a senior this year and I'm struggling with it more than I thought I would in terms of like, oh, it's almost over, it's almost over. And I don't know if he'll stay home for a year or two and do a gap year work or if he'll do college. We're still kind of working through that, but it gets possible that like, this was our last August 28th, you know?
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B
Yes, yes, it'll be that way throughout senior year. Everything feels that way.
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A
This will be our last Christmas. This last summer was our last one when he wasn't an adult. And so you almost start to feel frantic. And I guess I am. And we've homeschooled, so I feel like we've had even extra time, but it still feels like not enough.
- [12:12]
B
Yeah, I know when you, when you love being a mom, it does feel like not enough because you're like, what other joy compares to that joy of having all your kids at home?
- [12:21]
A
Yeah. And not enough time necessarily to, like, did I teach all the things I wanted to teach? Or. You know, they say, be what you want your child to become. You're not ever really actually hardly teaching that many lessons anyways. You're just modeling. But you talk about. And I feel this. You say you have this sense of urgency. You're talking about packing a suitcase. And there's, like, analogy. It's a really good analogy. And that, you know, in the end, maybe we try and overstuff. Can you give some advice for moms for sort of spacing out a little bit better? Like, I mean, I just feel like, gosh, did I not space it out well enough? Like, I. I'm out of time.
- [12:56]
B
That's how I feel. I know.
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A
I feel.
- [12:59]
B
Well, if that makes you feel any better, I've got three in college, one's graduated, and she's now in grad school back in Birmingham. But they do still need you, and you do get to still speak into their life. And so that's what I tell moms, you know, And I'm like, we all mess up, and we all miss that feel like we miss the boat. And it's okay. It's okay for them to see our humanity and imperfections. But. But, yeah. Oh, wait, what was. What was my train of thought?
- [13:21]
A
Well, how do we space it out? Or, like, you know, you talk about this overpacking and the sense of urgency, and then all of a sudden, maybe you're getting to, like, age 15, 16, and you're like, wait, this and this and this and this.
- [13:33]
B
Yes. Yeah. I think the biggest thing is, you know, one. One concept that I love is the drip, drip, drip method by Birds and Bees. And, you know, that I don't know if Instagram, but they have. They have just a great. And I've heard the philosophy before that it used to be these hard conversations were one big talk, and now they say, you know, don't make it one big talk. You're just having little bits and pieces here and there. And especially when they become teenagers. Like, I learned that when mine were little, they would sit and listen to a dissertation for me. You know, they. You have their captive attention. They become teenagers, and you might have 30 seconds or less. And so you have to kind of find ways to just like, weave little points into a conversation, and it might be just whenever it feels relevant. And I was, like, speaking to a group of moms last night, like, give yourself grace because, like, the first time my husband and I did the talk with our oldest daughter, like, it was awful. And she tells us now she has PTSD from that night. You know, I'm like, we didn't know what we were doing. And, you know, she said she, she looked at my calendar and saw Monday night sex talk Ella. And she just dreaded it all week. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. We didn't know what we were doing, but we were like, we wanted her to hear the truth from us before she heard other narratives from the world. We wanted to set those first tracks. And so really that's what we're doing is we're just trying to set the first track. But yes, what I've realized is that as they get closer to 18, it's tempting to just like, give lesson after lesson after lesson because I did the same thing. I panicked. I haven't done enough. I haven't taught her enough. I don't know if this sunk in. I told her this three years ago. And so you're doing lesson after lesson. And one thing that always stands out to me was my, my 14 year old one time told me, she goes, mom, if you make every conversation a life lesson, I'm going to tune you out. And I was like, okay, point taken. So that was a reminder to me that, you know, sometimes, especially if I've had the conversation before, I don't have to go repeat it. Five or, you know, just. Just maybe have that conversation. And it might be you're repeating it like, you know, make good choices or some little tidbit you're giving them. But also, I think it's really important, even as they get older and close to living home, is just to have those fun conversations with them and sometimes talk about shallow things. And it could be Taylor Swift getting engaged or whatever, but I think sometimes as they get ready to leave home, and I know I was guilty of this, I got so focused on making sure I got all the life lessons that, you know, sometimes I would forget to just enjoy my child and be present with them.
- [15:51]
A
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- [19:46]
B
And it, it brought me a lot of peace because I had a friend when my our first daughters were leaving home. She told me that she was at her counselor's office and telling her counselor, have I done enough? Have I taught enough? Is she ready? And her counselor told her the seeds have implanted, they can't be unplanted. And that I loved that. And so it's like, that's such a good philosophy, is that, you know, we're really just planting seeds along the way, just, you know, kind of sharing things here and there. And it might be just a little tidbit or piece of advice there and. And then, you know, after that, we just kind of water those seeds that we planted. But even like, you know, and I think we still, our kids will still need us, hopefully, you know, I still need my dad. He's 89 years old. I call him all the time for advice. And I was thinking today, because I want to do an article on this, but one time, it was a few years ago, my daughter was asking to do something that I knew I wasn't I didn't want her to do. I knew it would be wrong to let her go. But her friends were going and she was begging, and I knew she was going to be upset with me. So I called my dad. I kind of needed somebody to affirm my decision. And I loved what he told me. He said, carrie, trust your instincts, not her instincts. And I think that's what we bring to the table as parents, especially as we get older and wiser, that sometimes they don't need a big lesson or dissertation. They just need that little nugget to kind of remind them of those truths that we taught them deep down that. That moral compass that we have hopefully instilled in them. And, you know, that's what I. You know, especially now that my dad's older, I really pay attention because I'm like, one day I won't be able to call him, and I want to be able to, like, think about what would my dad say? You know, knowing what I know based on the past. So, you know, that's my advice, is just to kind of try to think about how we can be concise and keep those little nuggets down to maybe 30 seconds or less and also wait for the right time. You know, I have a daughter that. She gets really angsty. If she's hungry, you cannot talk to her, you know, or if she's nervous, you know, when I was driving her to a game, you know, I try to be, you know, chatty and sometimes give her a pep talk, and she would just shut me out. And so I realized, you know, she's just the child. I got to give her her space, and I gotta wait until she is ready to talk. So I think a lot of times it's knowing your child and also looking for that time and opportunity to do it.
- [21:50]
A
Yeah, that goes along with brain science. I talked to this man earlier today named Dr. Bruce Perry, and he has this, like, picture in his book about the four layers of the brain. It's like a cake, he says, and, like, when you're stressed out that the cortex, the thinking part, doesn't work. And, like, only the brainstem is working in these other parts. And so interesting, for a certain child, if they are stressed out, they, you know, they may not be able to comprehend what you're saying. So to know about those things is really important. And this is really a message of hope. Right. That we. We still have time. We're not out of time.
- [22:23]
B
Yeah.
- [22:23]
A
And so you don't necessarily. You got to try and push back on that sense of urgency. Because you say that sense of urgency, see, it can look like micromanaging their lives. It can look like expecting perfection, sharing too many corrections at once, sharing too many life lessons at once, forcing a love for God on them, controlling their relationships and decisions, obsessing over their social lives, over scheduling them, living vicariously through them, raising the daughter that we want and not the daughter that we have. So I think if you can rest in the fact that you're not going to be out of time. And I've always kind of thought, 18, such an arbitrary every number anyways, like it's just a society number. But it's kind of. Those things sometimes are odd to me. It's like, well, where did that even come from?
- [23:02]
B
Yeah. And, you know, it helped me too. When I was in your position, right, preparing for my oldest daughter to leave home, I read a book that basically said that, you know, yes, we have 18 years with them at home, but our longest relationship with our child actually starts after they leave home like that. That lifelong friendship with them could last 50 years or more. And I thought that just makes me feel better, you know, that it's, it is different. It's going to be different. And you know, one thing I really stress and love her well is like their last years at home kind of set the foundation for that lifelong relationship. And so, you know, I thought when, when I was fighting with my daughter, that's what I wrote that book about. You know, it starts with me crying on the floor. I thought, I don't want this to be the dynamic that we carry into her, our adult relationship. I want to find better ways for us to work through conflict and, and it's hard. I think it takes a lot of self reflection for us as moms, but to give you hope. But they, they do, they always need you. And honestly, I think sometimes they need you more as they get older, especially as they get out of college. You know, you see this, that it's hard because all of a sudden they've had counselors and teachers and mentors and they are loaded up with people helping them with life advice until they graduate from college. And then all of that structure is gone. You know, they really got to go find it. And so I hear from a lot of people that that's one of their hardest seasons of parenting because their child is struggling and, you know, looking for those mentors or trying to figure out what they want to do with their life. And so they still need us to be that sounding board, to be that counselor, to Be that coach. It's just in a different way.
- [24:27]
A
I really appreciate this. I like helping people to know what's coming. So that's wonderful. So this book that's coming out, and it'll be out by the time this podcast goes live, is called is your daughter ready? And you go through a whole lot of topics in here. You talk about motherhood, feeling heavy. You talk about perseverance and resilience and a lot of things that our kids need for this age that they're living in. But I really wanted to focus on something that we haven't talked a lot about on this show. And you cover so well in this book, which is friendships. And friendships are one of the four pillars of happiness Arthur Brooks talks about it's family, friendships, and work. And there's something else. I don't know what it is, and I can't remember. So anyway. But there's four pillars, and one of the four is friendships. And so this is critically important and yet really difficult for a lot of reasons. Technology makes it harder. And as a parent, you don't know how much to step in and how much not to step in and also what's normal and what's not normal. So could you help us learn more about that? I'd love to start with the friend shifts.
- [25:36]
B
Yes.
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A
So you say very few girls make it through high school without a friend shift or a lonely season somewhere along the way.
- [25:43]
B
Yes. Yes. That is like parents. Take one thing away from this podcast, I hope it's that, that it is so normal. And when I started writing books, when my daughters were entering middle school, an older woman told me she goes friendships in middle school especially can be very fluid. They change a lot. And that is my biggest piece of advice to moms, is I think that sometimes, especially if we love our kids friends, that we want that sense of security, that sense of control. And it's very easy. Oh, they have the perfect friendship in sixth grade. And it's going to be like this all through high school. And chances are it's not. It's going to fluctuate. It may like my. My youngest daughter actually has the same friends that she had from elementary school. And I keep telling her it might shift, but I promise you, you know, real friends come back together. But it hasn't yet. But I think just knowing that. And, you know, my biggest piece of advice is I tell moms, like, teach your child to cast a wide net. And it has served my daughter so well. And it doesn't come naturally for most kids, but I See, a lot of girls, especially, paint themselves into the. Because they're only kind and they're only friendly to their little group. You know, they find their people, they find their clique, and they don't want any other friends. They don't have eyes for anybody else. But because things can be so fluid, and there might be. It might be a boy that comes into the picture that starts some fighting, or it might be the kids are making different decisions as they get into high school, and some of the group wants to drink and some doesn't, you know, doesn't. Things can happen. But a lot of girls don't have anywhere to go because they've been so exclusive to everybody else. Nobody invites them in. Done. And they also. Sometimes I see this happen. Sometimes they start making poor decisions themselves because they don't have another place to go. And so they kind of just do what the group is doing. And then I've seen girls go to college and do a total 180. You know, they pledge a totally different sorority than all their friends. You know, totally take a different lifestyle. And they've been waiting to do that. It makes me sad, but they, like, waited all of high school to be what they feel like is the true version of themselves because they didn't have the strength to do it in their friend group. And so. But, you know, my big thing is if you've cast a wide net, if you've made friends, I was like, make friends wherever you go, go. And it might be, you know, she's my French class friend. She's my friend in PE class. She's my friend from gymnastics. She's my friend from summer camp. First of all, it's the right thing to do. Your life is going to be so much more interesting. You're. You'll never be bored if you can make friends easily. Just getting to know people. You don't have to be besties, but just having those conversations. But second, you know, as. As we know, people come back into your life, and somebody that's a peripheral friend right now, you know, you might look three years later, she might be the only one in the room making the same decision as you or the same person. Like, you know, something's not here. And so that person might become a close friend. And then third, if something happens in your friend group, if there is some kind of shift that a lot of times you'll have a place to go or you'll have someone you can hang out with, if you have just extended your network. And I just say that those Are the kids that tend to do the best when I think they go to college is that they have, you know, they just have that. They know that art of the invitation, being able to invite people to do things. They know how to make friends and they have their closest people, but they also know how to. To cast that wide net and just leave room for. For new friendships to possibly develop too.
- [28:49]
A
It's really good advice and four words. So when you're talking about really short little quips of wisdom, right? Like, cast a wide net is a really good one. Hey, remember to cast a wide net. If you had that conversation once, then you could go back to that phraseology. You say, cast a wide net by being kind to everyone. Make new friends wherever you go. It's okay to have your best friend friends, but don't let them keep you from making new friends too. It might not feel natural at first, but with practice it gets better. And then you talk about how many girls paint themselves into a corner by not branching out. And when drama goes, blows up, they have nowhere to go. Nobody invites them because they've acted so exclusive. And you talk about how a certain situation happened with your daughter in the eighth grade.
- [29:29]
B
Yes.
- [29:30]
A
Can you tell us about that?
- [29:32]
B
Yes. Yeah. Well, this was the daughter that she. She could be very exclusive. She was kind of clicky in. In elementary school. Liked her two or three best friends and wanted to do everything with them. And I had to preach it. I was like, it's okay to have your best friends, but you don't even know what just being friendly or saying somebody's name could mean to somebody. Like, just be friendly beyond your friend group. It didn't really sink in for a couple of years, but as she went to middle school, she really started to. She had her best friends, but developed other friendships too. And so anyway, fast forward to eighth grade. They're on this. It's a Christian retreat, of course, because I'm like, these things always happen on a Christian retreat, right? But her little one of her. The girls in her friend group decided that, you know, they should leave her out. And so they're like, she told everybody else, don't talk to her. Don't let her sit with us, all of this. And so I didn't even know because I didn't have their phones that weekend. So I didn't know until she got home on Sunday and I had an event. And so she. She called me on the phone, bawling, crying. But she told me, you know, the good thing was she had cast a wide Net that year. And she had other friends. And it was those other friends who said, come sit with us, come hang out with us. She was not alone that entire weekend because other people, people came and swooped her up. And, you know, I had to, just for me, I was like, thank you, God, that, you know, she had that experience. As, as hard as it was for me to see that as a mom, I knew that my lessons on kindness would not sink in until she'd been the outsider. You just don't get that until you have that pain. And so I was like, that really is an example of how your pain can become a purpose. Because the same thing almost that happened to another girl in their group six weeks later. I'm sorry, six months later. And she refused to participate. She's like, I'm not doing that because of what happened to her. And I just think sometimes we need those moments to develop the compassion and empathy that we want. So it was just, it really was a lesson. And I didn't even, I didn't even, you know, realize that something like that would happen. But I was so glad that I taught her that lesson to cast a wide net because it really, on our dark day in her life, I felt like it really came into play and benefited her.
- [31:29]
A
It's good advice for adults. Do my mom always says, have friends of all ages?
- [31:33]
B
Yes. I love that. The older I get, the more I feel that way. Those intergenerational friendships. Yeah, they're so important.
- [31:40]
A
So then in that same line of thinking, this also affects the mom because yes. If there's a big drama, blow up with your 8th grade daughter and all her friends. Well, what if you're friends with the mom?
- [31:55]
B
And so, yeah, oh, trust me, I get those emails all the time.
- [32:00]
A
And it's, it's possibly likely that you are because a lot of times as a parent, you're building your social work world during those ages and years around your child. Social world. So let's say you really click with the mom when they're a second graders. And then that daughter is a jerk to your daughter, steals her boyfriend or whatever, won't talk to her in eighth grade.
- [32:21]
B
Right.
- [32:21]
A
And you, you know, it doesn't. I have never. And I, I could be completely off. It's just my own life experience. I have never seen it work where you go to the other parent and be like, hey, let's talk it out. Yeah, it doesn't work.
- [32:38]
B
I know it doesn't because everybody's loyalty is with their child, you know, and yes, I talked to some moms last night. And I was, I was sharing that same situation. And I think there's a trend in parenting right now where the moms want to demand immediate confrontation. And sometimes they're more mad at the mom than they are the child because they're like, I can't believe she's letting her daughter treat my daughter, daughter this way. And I'm kind of like, you know, I've been on both sides of the situation. I'm like, you know, your kids get to middle school and high school, you can preach all day long, but you can't control what they're going to do. And you never know what a mom is trying to teach her child behind the scenes. Like she might be aware of what's happening and she's coaching her daughter and she's telling her to be kind to the daughter and she's just not listening. But she can't tell you that, you know, that's something between her and her daughter. But you know, the story that I gave last night, and I think I have it in the book too, was I had another daughter and she had this best friend, you know, from, from elementary school. Like they were together all the time in my head. And this is what we do as moms. I'm thinking, they're going to be college roommates. They're going to be best friends forever. This is great. It's so perfect. It's that sense of security I was wanting. Well, they go to middle school and all of a sudden they just stopped talking and there wasn't a big blow up. They just suddenly had nothing in common and it just, it made no sense. And I'm like, no, this is like her college roommate, you know, and there was a part of me that was panicking.
- [34:00]
A
You're ruining your long term life.
- [34:02]
B
That's right. You're running your life and you're ruining my friendship. Because I love mom. I love the parents. Like we'd taken trips together and this is such a common scenario, especially in this day and age. Like moms have. They were sorority sisters and they raised their kids together and they're always besties. And it was great until middle school. And so I really had to do some soul searching and just realized I was like, I can't force this relationship. Like, there wasn't bad blood. They just ended up in different friend groups, had different interests. But it broke my heart. It made me sad. But I realized, you know what, I can still be friendly to the mom. We might not see each other as much, but I can still root for her child. I can still ask how her child is doing. Like, truly want what is best for her, even though it kind of made me a little sad. So, anyway, fast forward a few years. Summer before senior year, they end up back in the same friend group because of the friendships. I'm telling you, things shift around and they end up back in the same friend group. It became so tight again. She helped the boyfriend, helped plan a surprise party for this friend. They. She came on. Her friend came on senior trip with us. Like, it was so much fun. We had the best senior year. And on senior trip trip, the other girl's mom, we're just sitting there watching them taking pictures, and she. She just looked at me and said, I'm so happy they found their way back to each other. And I was like, I know. And it had nothing to do with us. But, you know, I look back now and think, if I had tried to control that situation or tried to force her to keep being friends with this girl, then this probably wouldn't have happened. You know, then they. They might not have ever come back again. Full circle in a natural way. And the cool thing was they went to different colleges. They weren't college roommates, but they introduced each other to each other's friends. They did a study abroad together. Like, their networks have both expanded because they both explored other friendships and opportunities and then came back together. And they have benefited so much from meeting each other's friends and having those experiences. So it played out so much better than I would have written the story. But it's so hard to see that when you're just seeing your child upset and hurt because their friend is not wanting to play with them, they want to play with someone else.
- [36:01]
A
And it was good that you didn't burn the bridge with the mom.
- [36:04]
B
Yes.
- [36:05]
A
That's one of the things you talk about, too.
- [36:07]
B
Yes.
- [36:07]
A
Because you just don't know. Don't burn the bridge. Don't burn the bridge with your mom, with the other moms, because you just don't know that the friendship, you say old friends often reunite. And so it's just something to be aware of and to just try and do your best to, like, breathe through it and not control and let things happen. Healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support. What if it started with a step away from the noise, a proven approach and a puppy. Capstone Wellness is here to help with a unique model founded on faith and clinical excellence for teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health, and addiction. Capstone Treatment center provides a safe place to begin their healing journey. Every boy receives a Labrador Retriever puppy on admission and takes that puppy home when they graduate. Paired with deep therapy work, these pups help teach responsibility, nurture attachment and bring families together. For individuals, couples or features families who aren't looking for residential care, vine and Root Intensives cover months of world class counseling in a concentrated multi day package designed to retrace hurt back to the root. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families on their path to healing. Learn more@capstonewellness.com 1000 hours that's capstonewellness.com 1000 Hours this show is sponsored by Better Help. Hey friends, It's Ginny from 1000 Hours at Outside. I'll be honest, when something's weighing on me, I've definitely turned to the group chat, the neighbor at the park, or even the nice woman I met in the TJ Maxx return line. And while those conversations can be sweet, helpful even, they are not therapy when it comes to deeper challenges. Things like anxiety, stress or relationship strain, you need someone who's actually trained to help. That's where Better Help comes in. Their therapists are credentialed, licensed professionals who work according to a strict code of ethics and they've been matching people with the right therapist for over 10 years. You fill out a short questionnaire and BetterHelp does the matching for you. They've served over 5 million people globally and have a 4.9 star rating from 1.7 million reviews. Sessions happen online on your schedule and you can switch therapists anytime if it's not the right fit. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experts Expertise. Find the one with Better Help our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com 1000hours that's BetterHelp H lp.com 1000hours because not everyone is the one, but your therapist should be. When did making plans get this complicated?
- [38:37]
B
It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the.
- [38:40]
A
Secure messaging app that brings the whole group together together.
- [38:43]
B
Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets Mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption.
- [38:54]
A
It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com and then practically. You also talk about romantic relationships and it's really good advice in here. Carrie like you said, say it's always smart to exit a relationship with dignity. Let your ex remember you as the one who got away rather than the one he never cares to see again. Be sad at home and cry with your friends. But in public, act dignified. Don't burst into tears or do, you know, don't be vengeful. Don't do things that make you look bad or let the breakup consume you. So we're talking about relationships. Then at a certain age, there ends up being, you know, romantic relationships involved. And this is a trickier time for that because of the Internet and because of texting and because of secrecy and because of pornography and because of expectations. So what advice do you have for dating?
- [39:56]
B
Yeah, that's all. That could be a whole book in itself. But yeah, going back to that first point about leaving a relationship with dignity, and it's hard because, you know, there's a lot of emotions, especially in those first relationships, because they don't have a lot of experience. But I think this is something we can talk about with our children in advance before they're in the situation. Because a lot of times I Talked to a 10th grade teacher and she's like, it's very interesting watching how girls handle breakups differently because for most of them, it's their first breakup, and some of them can be mature and others just go postal and ballistic and all that. So I'd always kind of preach that to my daughters. It's just like, cry at home, vent at home, but don't, don't be that person, you know, in public. And don't, don't, don't be hateful toward him. So I was writing about this earlier. You know, my daughter in college now has a boyfriend, but the irony is that he is roommates and good friends with her boyfriend from high school. And so, you know, they had kind of a rough breakup senior year. And they weren't really, they weren't really. They didn't really talk. But she was cordial. She handled it maturely. And it's interesting. So fast forward a year later, and he's pledge brothers with this boy that kind of has a crush on. On her. And the, the. His friend was like, hey, can you put in a good word for me asking this of the ex boyfriend? I didn't know this until he started dating. So he's like, yeah, you know, because he still, he didn't have anything bad to say about her. So, you know, he kind of put in that good word. And anyway, this boy has made my daughter really happy. This relationship is much healthier. You know, it's better for her. And I think, you know what? It never would have happened if she'd been crazy ex girlfriend. Because what would have happened is her ex would have said, stay away. She's nuts. You know, and so there. I have so many stories like that that, you know, girls just don't, you know, just don't burn those bridges and, you know, don't earn that reputation. But that's the biggest thing. And. And also, I heard a priest say this one time that dating is about rejection. It's about finding the one person you're meant to marry. And I think sometimes just keeping that in mind, it can kind of take the pressure off a breakup. And if somebody breaks up with you or if there's shifts, like, you're like, it's okay because. Because, you know, it's all about you're kind of getting to know the person. And with some people, you might know on the first date that, you know, that you're not attracted. There's no future. And some people, it might take six months to kind of get to those hidden qualities. Like, it might be, you know, I dated a boy once that he. I love so many things about him, but he would not hold my hand in public. He was like, no. No pda, no. But several people would tell me, like, oh, I didn't know you were dating. Y' all just seem, like, so chummy. And I'm like, well, you know, I want. I want a guy who will hold my hand, like. And my husband's very affectionate. And so that's something I kind of learned from that relationship was like, I don't want him all over, but I want a boy who will hold my hand. And so I think with people that we date, you know, back in my day and age, we kind of dated more than they do now. But it was helpful in that sense. If you keep it innocent, you kind of learn what you do want and what you don't want. And by the time you meet the person that I think you're meant to be with, you kind of have a good idea of, like, this is a good match for me. So I'm always like, you know, and it's hard because hormones are involved, but, you know, I'm always like, keep it innocent. If you, you know, know it's always wise to keep it innocent. And, you know, I share a story, too. I know a girl in my community that, you know, she dated a guy in high school, but another girl in our community dated this guy and their relationship was very innocent. The other relationship was not very innocent. It was, it lasted longer. Well, fast forward, you know, 20 years and they all have kids together in the same community, in the same grade. And she's like, he and I can still hang out together as families. There's not, it's not awkward. But he can't do that with the other family. Family. And so I think sometimes giving our kids that big picture that like, chances are most people you date or that you go to prom with or whatever are not going to be your spouse. And so just treating them in a way that, you know, you're just, you, you want their future spouse to thank you for the way that you treated them, that you showed them respect. And even like my, my 10th grade daughter, she has a sweet group of girlfriends and guy friends. And she was telling me, I asked her one time, I was like, any romantic interest? And she's like, no. And she's like, they're kind of like my kind cousins because they don't have, she don't have brothers, she has sisters. But I'm like, that's how it should be. Like that's how it should start is that you're not looking at every boy as a potential boyfriend. Just starting off with friendship like they're your cousins, they're your brothers. And then I think so many times romances can evolve naturally from there, but not trying to force it to happen before it's meant to.
- [44:12]
A
It's really good advice. And you say every choice has a consequence in life. But once you hit your teenage years, your choices begin to, to have longer term consequences, which is a big deal to remind, like you talked about, you know, if you have these relationships and you end up staying in the same town, you know, or you never know, 20 years down the road that you might, you know, maybe you regret the choices that you made. And you say if you make one bad choice, don't follow it up with the second bad choice. So the book is filled with really practical advice and things carry that I might not have thought to say or brought up or mentioned, you know, to the kids. So I was so glad to read all of these different topics that you have in this book. You even brought it up in the book, talking about the cortex that goes off because you have a sentence in here that says the gut thinks faster than the brain. So if a situation doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. Trust your gut, right? So that's like the, like the lower brain stem and it's all connected. And so it's really good advice to have these conversations here and there with your kids, especially as they're hitting those teen years so that they can be more successful in this really tricky age. Is a lot of nuance to it. You had a sentence here that was kind of shocking to me. I was like, I don't know why this is so shocking, but you're talking about control. I remembered the fourth pillar of happiness, by the way. Okay, guess what? I forgot. It's friends, family, work, and faith.
- [45:43]
B
Oh, sorry.
- [45:44]
A
Sorry, Lord. Not the faith one. But you were talking about how you're prone to make control your idol. And, you know, parenting older kids means accepting this discomfort of releasing them to God and releasing them to their lives, and off they go, you know, that they're gonna go live their own lives. But you said this. The kid must want a great life for themselves more than we want it for them. And ultimately, it's their life. And I don't know why it was such a shocking statement to me, because I was like, that actually is a big release of control to think they've got to own it.
- [46:26]
B
Yes. Yeah. I have a friend who tells her son. She was. When he's. He's in a great spot now, but for many years, he wasn't. And she was like, I can't be your Holy Spirit. You know, like, she would just. She was trying to control the situation, and she came to point. She's like, I can't be your Holy Spirit. You've got to make good choices for yourself, not just for me. This. This has got to be for you. And it's hard. And there are a lot of great parents out there, and they have a child who's making bad decisions or they're a little bit of a prodigal.
- [46:55]
A
And.
- [46:56]
B
And it. It is hard just trusting God, especially in those moments or when they have a big heartache or setback or challenge that is just. You just worry about breaking them. It's hard to trust God because we can't control the situation. But that. I just feel. I feel like the older my kids get, the more and the harder I have to lean into my faith. And for me, something that helps me, especially when I'm worried because I'm so prone to worry, is one thing I like to do is just thank God in advance. And I say, you know, God, I am so scared right now. I am so worried about my child. But you know that. And I'm just thanking you and advance for the plan that you have for Them, the plan that I cannot see yet, but I trust is good because you love them more than I do. So for me, it just. That gets my heart in the right posture. It gets me out of that. That amygdala, that fight or flight mode we talk about the brain, and into more of that prefrontal cortex where I can, you know, try to find peace as much as you can, even when there's a lot of uncertainty.
- [47:53]
A
And you say many games are won in the last few seconds, you know, talking about sports, but that's true. You say, if miracles can happen in a football game, how much more might God do in your daughter's life or your son's life? You know, if you're feeling like everything is going awry, but things could come back and in circumstances can change.
- [48:09]
B
Yes.
- [48:10]
A
So it's really encouraging. Okay, talk to us about the bitter burn.
- [48:14]
B
Yes. I love that we have. At our school, we have these. The football moms have these prayer breakfasts every Thursday before the games, every Friday before the games. And one of the moms was telling me that the one that stood out to her was this veteran mom came and she was really speaking to the new moms, and she told them, you know, my biggest piece of advice is to stay out of the bitter barn. You know, like, it's. It's really easy to go into the bitter barn because your child's not getting enough playtime, or the coach changed his position or he scheduled a, you know, father, son, father, son, you know, run the Thanksgiving morning or whatever it is.
- [48:47]
A
It's really easy, like something that would happen. Is this a holiday?
- [48:52]
B
Yeah, exactly. Don't. It doesn't matter that you were planning to go out of town. Let's go do this breakfast or this run, you know, know, so. But I thought that's so true, especially in this age of text messages, that it's so. And I've been guilty. You kind of get on it and somebody's ranting about something and everybody's. Yeah, yeah, and you're upset and. And we've all gone to the betterborn. You. And sometimes we have legitimate complaints about. About things with our kids. And I think sometimes we do have to advocate that we are, you know, it's not helicopter parenting. Sometimes things do happen. It's a poor decision, and we do have to advocate for our child. But what often happens, too, is that sometimes, you know, we go into the bitter barn. And what I've learned about the bitter barn is like, the people who stay in there are the people who are Just negative Nellies. You know, there comes a point where somebody that's healthy minded is going to leave the bitter barn. They'll be like, you know what? I can't stay here. This is weighing on my spirit. It's draining me. It's making me negative to my family. I can't stay here. And I do think that's a battle that we fight as moms because it's really easy to stay stuck in the bitter barn, stuck complaining about what's wrong or what we want to change, change. But you know, again, there comes a point. Sometimes we have to just control what we can control and let go of the other things and know, you know, life is never going to be perfect on this side of heaven. And, you know, things won't always be the way exactly that we want. But I do think we have to really, just really protect our heart from staying in that bitter barn. Because, you know, if we stay there too long and we're around that negativity, then it's just going to make us a bitter person. And I think we all have those moments or seasons in life. We felt ourselves going in that direction. And I know that I've always, you know, when I feel myself headed there, I'm like, you know, lord, help me. Like, I don't want to. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in this negative place where I only see, you know, the darkness in life that I only, you know, think everything looks terrible. And I'm missing out on the joy and I'm missing out on what's right in the midst of all that.
- [50:43]
A
That's really good advice. And life has unmet expectations and things that you can get really upset about, lots of things that you can get bitter about, about just as a football mom. And then there's all sorts of other things. You have this amazing quote in here that I've not heard before. It's a Wayne Gretzky quote, a hockey player, maybe from Michigan, but I don't totally know. That name sounds really familiar to me. And we live in Michigan, so maybe he was on the Red Wings. But I could be wrong.
- [51:13]
B
I know I don't know who he played for. He's this really famous hockey player though.
- [51:16]
A
But yeah, at least we both know he played hockey. And it's easy to know he played hockey because this is the quote, skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been. And I think that it is. You bring it up in this context of parenting because we're in this age of new challenges. And so you have to, I think, think ahead a little bit. Even if we don't totally know what the ramifications are of new technologies or things like that. You have to. And like the birds and bees, you sort of have to be having these conversations. And so you have have a lengthy list in here of topics to discuss. And I think that that's really worthwhile to read, you know, including things like when to leave a party or a date. All the way from that to eating disorders, to dealing with mean girls, to God's unconditional love and mercy, to not being judgmental. How did you come up with. And it's more extensive list than that. But how did you come up with that list of topics to sort of skate ahead head and to know like these are things I need to make sure I pass on to my daughters.
- [52:19]
B
Right. You know, honestly, these are just things that I've collected over the years. I've been writing for moms and teenage Girls for about 10 years. When I started writing for teenage girls, my daughters weren't teenagers yet, so I didn't know all of this. You know, like my, my. They said the first child gets the best of the grandparenting and the worst of the parenting. And I'm like, that's true. Like I didn't know to tell her all of this.
- [52:38]
A
Wait, that I've not heard that.
- [52:40]
B
Have you ever heard that? It's so true.
- [52:41]
A
Yeah. That is so funny and interesting and. Okay, so say it one more time.
- [52:45]
B
The first child gets the best of the grandparenting and the worst of the parenting.
- [52:50]
A
Yeah. Because they're the first grandkid and they're like the apple of the eye of the exact grandparents. But yeah, by the time you're down to grandkid 9 or you know, or whatever.
- [52:58]
B
Yeah. It's kind of like afterthought years. Yeah.
- [53:00]
A
Okay.
- [53:01]
B
All right. And so you know, with her. So a lot of these I didn't know I was kind of like backtracking with her. I didn't know to have the conversations. And that's why when want moms to give themselves grace because we're not going to. And even though I could cover every topic under the sun, but my daughters will still face challenges that I couldn't predict. You know, we can't predict every situation, but I think sometimes just, you know, having these little nuggets, these little things to tell them in advance, it does help them just to have a heads up and even like, you know, when my daughter when my daughter was little and she was on the iPad, I would tell her, you know, when you're thinking about pornography, how do you talk about that in an age appropriate way? I would tell her, I was like, you know, hey, you know, sometimes there are people who put, you know, bad images on the Internet and they want you to make a mistake. They want you to stumble across it accidentally. So if you. If that ever happens, I want you to come to me and tell me, and you will not get in trouble. So I think just little conversations like that before they're in those situations, I mean, that's really one of our superpowers as moms, is that we. We can see what's coming ahead and we can kind of be on the front end of those conversations. Not all the time, but in a lot of cases, cases. And it might be, you know, what are you going to do when there's alcohol at a party or, you know, somebody's been drinking and they're your driver for the night and you feel awkward telling that you don't want to get in the car with them. But, you know, they're a lot more likely to make better decisions if they thought about these things in advance, rather than they're in that, you know, that panic mode and having decided in five seconds what they need to do.
- [54:24]
A
And you had a quote in here, I think it was from another mom, where they said, call me if you ever need help. Help, and I will. You won't be in trouble. Or it was something like, yeah, call me. Or maybe it was even yours. I'm trying to find was.
- [54:39]
B
It was Lisa Damore.
- [54:40]
A
Yes, that's right.
- [54:41]
B
Yes.
- [54:41]
A
Call me if things. It's actually really good wording. Call me because I just messed it up totally. Call me if things get out of hand. I will never make you sorry that you asked for my help.
- [54:51]
B
Yes. I love them.
- [54:52]
A
So this is in the back, actually, I think this part of the book is worth its weight in gold. Like, just this One part, it's 25. It's an appendix. It's 25 points for hard convers. So you have this whole list of topics that's earlier in the book, but in the back you have these different important conversations that you may not even think about having with your kids. So here's one of them. When you're at a party or a bar, never leave your drink unattended or take a Coke or drink. I'm gonna say it again because I. Well, I'm batching all of the things. When you're at a party or a bar, never leave your drink unattended or take a drink from someone you don't know well. Not even a, a Coke, not even a pop, not even a glass of pop. Like, and then you're so, you're, you're learning about these drugs that people might put in your drinks. I wouldn't have ever thought about explicitly talking about that to my kids.
- [55:41]
B
I know. Well, and I only. I kind of learned the hard way because you hear about stories. Just, you know, you parent long enough, you hear about stories. And the sad thing is now when these, these girls, especially when they go visit friends on college campuses, their older friends will tell them like they're, they're all warning them about it. And it's just so sad that they live in this day and age. But that's the irony, especially with raising girls and boys too. It's just, it's hard because we're trying to teach them to be a light. We want them to, to focus and believe in goodness. But then we also have to prepare them for some of the dark realities of the real world that not everybody's going to have their best interest in mind. And, you know, some people will, you know, try to take advantage of them. And so you've got to be smart and discerning. But yeah, those conversations, like I said, I really just kind of picked them up over time. They're from different articles as I was writing. Okay, what are some key conversations that I think just to give parents words, not all at one time, but just sayings, like whenever it's appropriate, you can share this little tidbit with your child.
- [56:37]
A
And one of them is about marijuana. There's no such thing as a safe drug. Just because marijuana is legal in some states doesn't mean it's beneficial. From the Teenage Brain book, the earlier the use, the greater the abuse. Legal and safe are not the same thing. And there is great evidence that marijuana hurts the developing brain. So these 245 hard conversations and, and what you could say or how you could bring it up and just to even know that you should bring it up because you might not consider talking about that type of thing. And then off they go to college or off they go out into the world and you're like, oh, wait, you know, I missed this. You know, this part. And you've got things in dating here about dating entails rejection. So a lot of things in here that are really, really practical for, for today's girls. And, you know, some things probably stand the test of time but, you know, having to see what's in your pop, you know, your drink, probably people didn't have to do that, you know, right. 25 or 30 years ago, or at least you know, to be so vigilant about it. And so I think knowing what to do, like the book, is 10 Ways to Empower your girl for an age of a new chance Challenges. Like, these are the things that you need to know about. So what an honor. Carrie, this is just fantastic. A book that is so needed, as well as all of the other ones, you have the ones that are for the girls, you have the ones that are for the moms, so people can check those out. You talk about how we're in a culture that veers toward over parenting, and this is going to help you maintain balance because you certainly do need to parent. There's a lot of things going on, on. You know, we need to stay engaged in their lives, but we don't want to be running the show. So just a phenomenally helpful book from a mom who has been there and who has transitioned some into adulthood. It is called is your daughter ready? Carrie. We always end our show with the same question. And the question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [58:34]
B
That was outside. Oh, that is so good. You know, I think just playing in my neighborhood with my brothers and sisters in the neighborhood kids, I was not very athletic, but my brother was a great basketball player. So we had him and all of his cute friends would be over there and, you know, we would just be outside playing basketball and nothing fancy, but just great memories.
- [58:53]
A
Yeah. Simple things. Simple things.
- [58:55]
B
Simple things.
- [58:56]
A
I love it. Well, huge congrats on your new book and thank you so much for being here.
- [58:59]
B
Thank you. Thank you, Jenny. I loved it.
- [59:05]
A
Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way. With Expedia, she bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower.
- [59:25]
B
You were made to take the easy route. We were made to easily package your trip.
- [59:30]
A
Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.