← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 583: When Your Best Isn't Enough to Prevent Pain | Tony Miltenburger, Wisdom in the Wound
00:55:32
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- [00:00]
Tony Miltenberger
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- [00:30]
Jenny Ertz
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have a new friend, an author, a leader in the army, and a podcaster for five years. Podcast is called Follow to Lead a Christian leaders Podcast. And I got sent this wonderful book in the mail that's the, like, legit manuscript.
- [00:50]
Tony Miltenberger
Tony Miltenberger, Welcome, Jenny. It's such an honor to be here. I'm such a big fan of your work. And we're on the podcast network together. That. That sounds fun. Network together. So it's. It's great to connect with one of my podcast network family members.
- [01:04]
Jenny Ertz
I know, it's really fun. I think there's a whole lot of shows, something like 50 shows on the network.
- [01:08]
Tony Miltenberger
So many shows. Oh, it's so. It's so great.
- [01:11]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. And they keep adding new people, so it's wonderful. Actually, I just saw Annie the other day, so that was really cool. So you have a new book coming out called Wisdom in the Wound, and it will be out by the time this podcast goes live. How God uses your past to shape who you're becoming. And there are some really interesting topics in this book that I think are so pertinent because as parents, we are trying so hard to do the best we can for our kids. And you cover this topic that I actually think probably would allow a parent in some ways, to breathe a little bit easier. You say this. Your kids are most definitely wounded.
- [01:50]
Tony Miltenberger
I just have never found it not to be true. Yeah. Right. So. So one of the things is, is, like, everyone that I talk to is willing to admit that the world, like, people are broken, that no one's perfect. Right. That's the general disposition. And I get to speak in hundreds of rooms all the time. And I was like, hey, if you're broken, raise your hand. And everybody raises their hand. And yet we never talk about what that actually means in practice. The consequence of that brokenness and what I kind of suggest in the book is that there's. There's this thing called little T trauma. If, if you, if faith guides your steps, they would call it like the. The epistemic consequence of sin. In other words, there's. It's a broken world. And in that brokenness that comes with some consequence. And that little t trauma is the lens at which you tend to look through the world. And more often than not, it happens between the ages of 4 and 12. And it's nobody's fault. It's not malicious. It doesn't make you a bad parent. It doesn't make your parents a bad parent. It just happens because the world is inherently broken.
- [02:55]
Jenny Ertz
So in some ways I do think it just kind of takes the pressure off. Like you're not going to be perfect. You can't be perfect. And even if you were perfect, these are inescapable realities. You know, that's some of the phraseology you use. So this is a really big statement. And you're talking about in particular, like the actual situation is that you're a pastor. And so there are, I guess, unintended consequences. That's the wording you use. Or there are just things that are happening because you're a pastor's kid.
- [03:26]
Tony Miltenberger
That's right. Yep, that's right. So here's a great example. One of the ones I use in the book is about my son Connor. He's 19 now. And as I was kind of working through this idea, one of the things that we talked about is what his wound is. And he was like, dad, please don't. I don't want to talk about, but.
- [03:46]
Jenny Ertz
Can you please put it in a book and talk about it it on a podcast.
- [03:51]
Tony Miltenberger
And so I did what every good parent does. I waited till he was trapped in the car so that we could actually talk about it in a healthy way. I was like, what do you think your wound is? And he was like, I'm not sure. And I was like, well, you know, I've seen you react a certain kind of way when we do this, when we ask a lot of questions and he, his, his go to response is, dad, stop pressuring me. And I'm like, son, I'm not, I'm not pressuring you at all. And he goes, it feels like you're pressuring me. And so we began to unpack that. And it turns out I became a lead pastor of a church when he was 8 years old. And when we got to the church, one of the things that we did is we got there and we Said, son, it's really important that you stand here and behave. Yes, everyone's looking at us. And inadvertently, we gave him the idea, the message that performance equals love. And so when we're asking for him to perform, we're bumping up against his wound. Now, here's the crazy part. On the other side of your wound is always your greatest gift, because the redemptive nature of the world that we live in, right? The world is designed to heal and to grow and, you know, things. We. We take our weaknesses and we turn them into strengths. So Connor, my oldest son, his incredible strength is that he is an incredibly gifted leader. He holds responsibility almost better than anyone I met, sometimes better than me. He's. He just. He rises to the occasion. He's in his second year of college, and he's absolutely loving it. He's slaying it. And all of those things happen on the other side of his wound. And what I really believe is that all of us have these wounds and all of us have these gifts, and both of them are unavoidable.
- [05:39]
Jenny Ertz
So would you say that that's because of the wound or even because of the situation? Like, would you say that the leadership quality, this gifted leadership quality, the qualities that he's displaying are in part or mostly because of this life situation at younger ages?
- [05:57]
Tony Miltenberger
Exactly. Because the lens at which we see the world, right? So here's another example here. My wound. My parents had unplanned twins when I was 4 years old. And so the unplanned twins, they're great. I love my brother and sister. They're incredible humans. However, I went from being the youngest to the middle really quick. And in that process, the message that I received was, you don't matter anymore. Now, that's not true. Like, my parents didn't say that explicitly. They didn't say that implicitly. Right. What happened, though, is the lens at which I looked through the world said, I. I don't feel seen. I don't matter. Now what do I do? I begin to make choices in my life that are directly connected to that deep emotional feeling. I pick jobs that have microphones. I pick jobs that put me in front of audiences. I pick jobs that do all those things, right? And I'm, you know, I'm an executive coach. Like, I do all of this. So here's what I say. My gift is. My wound is that I don't feel seen. My gift is I have a unique ability to see people. And so the redemptive nature of our psyche, of our desire, just not to live in that place of hurt is what leads us to our gift. And so another great example, I have a friend of mine who grew up in a world of chaos, right? And there was just a lot of things happening all the time. People are always coming and going again. Not there was no malicious. But she's really gifted at order. And so we begin to see that, like, hey, if you grew up like this, you're probably gifted like this. And when I talk to leaders or moms or dads all the time about what their gifting is or what their wound is, I always say one of the ways to find it is to talk to the people that are closest to you and ask them, hey, what am I really good at as a human? Just what am I really good at? And if you can start to find the gift, you can trace it to the wound. And it's a really beautiful thing.
- [07:57]
Jenny Ertz
This gives parents a little breath of relief, because I think that's something that we are afraid of, is the wounding of our children when we didn't mean to. And so you talk. I thought this was a huge statement. You say, intentions don't always protect against impact. So to the point of having the twin siblings, I mean, that wasn't for the sake of you getting ousted out of your spot. And, you know, all of a sudden, there's these needy twins, and you're four, and you can remember, like, just losing your position as the baby as the one. And all of a sudden, you're gonna have to help. I mean, if you got twins, right? Someone's depending on that. 4.
- [08:35]
Tony Miltenberger
All hands on deck, right?
- [08:36]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, absolutely. And so you wrote this while it's not my fault, meaning it's not a direct causation that let's say your son is wounded from this performance equals love situation, it doesn't make it hurt any less. The hurt is real. And that's part of the brokenness of the world. It's a tr. It's a strange tension to sit in knowing that you've done your best, yet realizing your best wasn't enough to prevent pain. So then you say, I own the unintended consequences of my actions. Can you talk about what that looks like practically? My husband is a pastor's son as well. And actually it happened at a similar age. So his dad was in the military, and my husband, his name's Josh, he was, like, really proud of the fact that his dad was in the military. Like, his dad would come to the school on the, you know, the different days when your dad comes in or your parent comes in and he'd be like in his uniform. And he switched to ministry when my husband was probably about Connor's age, like 8 or 9. And the things that come along with living in a fishbowl and you know, always having to be the one that's expected to pray. And there's a lot that goes along with that even into our marriage. Like I remember 10, 12 years into our marriage, Josh finding different articles online about pastors kids and being like oh that's where this stems from or this is why I feel that way. Do you actually then talk to your child about like. Because in our case we've got five kids. So you know, part of our situation is that our life is, it's kind of chaotic, you know, it's not as rhythmic as I would want it to be. I don't do as good of a job as I wish I could and I don't have a choice to get rid of any of the kids. So there's a lot of things that fall through the cracks.
- [10:27]
Tony Miltenberger
Sure.
- [10:28]
Jenny Ertz
So those are woo. I'm sure like they're all part of it. Consequences. There are consequences for having these five kids on my kids shoulders.
- [10:37]
Tony Miltenberger
Absolutely.
- [10:38]
Jenny Ertz
Do you bring that up?
- [10:40]
Tony Miltenberger
So the short answer is when the time is right. So Connor is now 19 and he and I can have a very honest conversation. I have a 15 year old and a 13 year old, two boys and a princess. And we can dive into the conversation at a level at which they're ready to receive it. Now I know some adults that aren't ready to receive it. And so you know, I always, I always say that when you want to go down a road of personal growth or personal awareness or personal wisdom, you need to make sure that the person is open to it. Right. You don't want to go someplace that you're not invited. And so that being said, like I did put Connor in that situation, I didn't have any malice in my heart. And so here's the temptation, the temptation is to judge myself for doing it. But if I were to go back in time, I would do the same thing because I didn't know any better. And the other part to this is that when you begin to see this as just a systemic part of life and growing up, that there's brokenness and there's healing and there's redemption and all of that goes with the cycle of the world of humanity. Then all of a sudden you can take the foot off the gas when it comes to judgment and shame. So judgment and shame end up exasperating the wounds of everyone, including the person who's judging and shaming themselves. And so if we can begin to just say, hey, this is true, I'm really sorry it happened, I didn't do it on purpose and I love you, then you're giving your child and you permission to talk about their pain points in a way that you don't have to be responsible for it. And I think one of the things that a lot of parents do and I have certainly done is I want to be responsible for all of my kids pain in terms of I want to own it with them. But what makes them a great adult resiliently is learning how to deal with all of that stuff. And so I always challenge parents. Don't, don't solve the problem for them. And I know you're a big fan of that. Instead, give them the coping skills so that they can deal with that and become a trusted ally in the discussion. And maybe the discussions with you, maybe it's with a counselor, maybe it's with a pastor, maybe it's with a small group, a college ministry, that pain is not going to go away. I'm 45 years old. People still bump up against my wound all the time. The only difference is 45 year old version of Tony handles it so much better than 20 year old version of Tony. And that's what I want for my, for all of my kids. I want them to have great coping skills. I want them to have trusted voices. I want them to have resources for resiliency.
- [13:30]
Jenny Ertz
It's interesting because it makes it an easier conversation when. Because I hadn't really read anything like this and I do feel that like I do know I was talking to this man, Ian Morgan Cron.
- [13:44]
Tony Miltenberger
Oh yeah, the Enneagram guy.
- [13:45]
Jenny Ertz
The Enneagram guy. That's so great.
- [13:48]
Tony Miltenberger
I'm sure he loves.
- [13:48]
Jenny Ertz
People call me the thousand hours outside lady. So that's really funny. Okay.
- [13:52]
Tony Miltenberger
The Enneagram guy, the Road back to you. That's what he wrote, right?
- [13:55]
Jenny Ertz
It's great. And he has a new book out called the Fix which is about addiction and they're both phenomenally written. So I had an opportunity to go on his show just recently and they were talking, he has like a co host too and they were talking to me about like if my number is a two, you know, how does that relate? Am I. Do I smother my children basically? Because a 2 is like a helper and you and you over help like the unhealthy way And I am like an over. Like, I want to come in and fix everything, and please call me and I'll come in on my white horse because that's how I feel, like I'm worthy. Otherwise, I'm like, well, why would you even want to be my friend, you know, if I can't help you? So I tend toward the unhealthy version of it. And so basically they were like, well, do you smother your kids? And I was like, no, because there's too many. Like, I can't. So it's an interesting way to frame it, Tony, like, where you can say, look, this was not my intention, but I can see how by being in this situation. So I would say one example would be the fact that right now I'm working, It's dinner time here, and I'm not with my kids. And there are pros and cons to every life decision that you make. You have to work. However, we got invited to the GMAs, the gospel music awards in October, and we're going to be in a suite and maybe a dinner the night before. And that's tied back to the work that I do. So there's that promise and apparel. And I think that by the way you approach this conversation, that it's not your intention, but it still happened. It allows you to open the door to that conversation a little bit easier.
- [15:30]
Tony Miltenberger
One of the things that I really believe that we just don't do very well is we just don't feel our feelings very well. There's this belief that I have and that I've seen when the wisest people I know, they feel their feelings, and feelings are decision points. They're not decision makers. So I can feel sad, and that's okay. That's just it, right? Like, you can feel angry, and that's okay. You don't have to do anything with the feelings. And that's one of those coping mechanisms, right? We want to just go experience the feelings. I think a lot of people in today's world don't have enough space in their life to feel their feelings. And so because there's no space, then what we do is we begin to try to make it go away, and then we medicate. Now, sometimes that's Amazon, sometimes that's box wine. Sometimes that's, you know, going to the gym, right? And some coping mechanisms have better. Have better outcomes than others, but they're all coping mechanisms. And so, you know, one of the things that I'm a big fan of is that if you have big emotions Like I do, I'm a pretty emotional guy, is I have to create enough space so that I can put myself in time out so that I don't make a decision emotionally. I don't want an emotional reaction. I want an intentional response. And I do that with my kids too. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book are these things called Amnesty Dinners.
- [16:57]
Jenny Ertz
Yep.
- [16:58]
Tony Miltenberger
And Amnesty Dinners are a place where I, when my oldest got to be about 16, he was making all sorts of choices and had all sorts of attitude. And we liked some, we didn't like others. And again, he's really responsible, an incredible kid. And my wife and I really wrestled with what do we do with all this? All this that is this 16 year old son. And I'm like, I think I just need to talk to him. And what I realize is we're on our way to the dinner is he's not going to talk to me if he's so scared that I'm going to punishment. And so the Amnesty dinner. In the Amnesty Dinner, he can say anything he wants without fear of punishment. So there's no repercussions. Because at 16 he's almost fully baked. Like there's not much I'm gonna do to change his moral compass. And so I don't want to be the parent that owns his responsibilities anymore. I want to be thought of as a trusted voice in his life. And we have, my wife and I have this 10 year goal and we stole it from Andy Stanley that we want to create a home that our kids want to come back to. Well, if our kids constantly feel judged or beaten up for all of their choices, who wants to go back to that?
- [18:11]
Jenny Ertz
Right, Right.
- [18:12]
Tony Miltenberger
And, and so one of those things is like, I just gotta have space for him to breathe. But in, before I go into that Amnesty dinner, which now doesn't happen so much anymore, I need to make sure that my emotional temperature is right, that I'm really clear about what I'm doing. Because there can be no emotional reaction if he shares something that is deep and dark. I need to, I need to, I say pastor it up. Right. I gotta button up the face, I got to cover up the eyes. Like, I just got to be like, I got to be dialed in here. Which is why my wife doesn't go because it's, it's too much emotion for her to handle all at once. So it's just guy to guy and like we're just going to sit there. We usually go to Skyline Chile because we live in Ohio and My wife doesn't like Skyline. So we sit down, we have a couple of coneys, and I'm like, all right, son, let's talk about all the things. And we just kind of go down the list and he can tell me whatever he wants with no fear of punishment.
- [19:08]
Jenny Ertz
And sometimes the things that happen in our life are because of choices that we make, and other times, which is what we've been sort of talking about from the beginning, is that they just come from episteme. What did you call it? Epistemic consequence of sin. That's like what a pastor would say, because I've never heard of that. But you also explain it in here. You say the brokenness of the world has a way of creating cracks even in the most loving relationships. And so I think that that concept, which I've not considered more. So you just feel guilty or like, I'm so sorry, there's all these kids and like, I, you know, we hardly talk today. You know, I was combing life out. Lice out of your sister's hair. You know what I mean? Whatever.
- [19:45]
Tony Miltenberger
Like.
- [19:46]
Jenny Ertz
But then also you're like, there are really, there's big benefits to all of these relationships that you're going to have when you're older. And so as far as the amnesty dinners go, I'm sure that there are things that if a 16 year old would say, look, I, you know, I'm struggling with this and I, I shouldn't be, or whatever. But then there are also are these problems that just arise because we are in a broken world. And to have the pattern or the routine of discussing those things I think is really powerful because often we look at things and they're like, oh, it's my fault. If only I could have done something different. But it's like, well, you needed a job and you're supposed to be a pastor, or, you know, you got to work, or you got, you know, she's got lice. I mean, it's going to take me six hours to come out these knits. So see you tomorrow. You know, I'm not going to talk to the other kids for a couple days or whatever the situation is. And the wounds come, but they're not on purpose. Healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support. What if it started with a step away from the noise? A proven approach and a puppy. Capstone Wellness is here to help. With a unique model founded on faith and clinical excellence for teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health and addiction, Capstone Treatment center provides a safe place to begin their healing journey. Every boy receives a Labrador Retriever puppy on admission and takes that puppy home when they graduate. Paired with deep therapy work, these pups help teach responsibility, nurture attachment and bring families together. For individuals, couples or families who aren't looking for residential care, vine and Root Intensives cover months of world class counseling in a concentrated multi day package designed to retrace hurt back to the root. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families on their path to healing. Learn more@capstonewellness.com 1000hours that's capstonewellness.com 1000 hours the other day my lamp broke. It's my bedside lamp and I use it to read late into the night because I'm always preparing for this podcast. It broke. It actually won't turn off unless I unplug it and so I needed to find a new lamp for my bedside and my favorite place to go, of all places to go is Wayfair. Wayfair is the perfect place to go if your tableside lamp breaks, but it's also the perfect place to kick off your back to school and and fall season prep. Everything comes so fast and they have an amazing selection of things. From cozy bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room, they always have you covered. Plus their huge selection of outdoor items makes it easy to find just what we need to transition smoothly into the fall. Besides lamps and linens, they even have playsets. We have the most incredible playset in our backyard that we got from Wayfair about six years ago and the kids still use it constantly. Whether you're refreshing your workspace with a new desk or making weeknight dinners a breeze with quality cookware or Wayfair literally has it all. And with free fast and hassle free delivery, even on big stuff like sofas and dining tables, there is no better time to shop, get organized, refreshed and back into routine. For way less. Head over to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's Wayfair W-A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style every Home Hey.
- [22:53]
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- [24:20]
Jenny Ertz
And one of the things that you talk about is that one of the ways that you could start to learn what your wound is, or I guess possibly your kid's wound, is when the emotional intensity spikes. So you have this quote that says, this is interesting. I've never heard of this. Toni, anytime your emotional intensity spikes above a 6 on a scale of 1 to 10, it is most likely that the event is bumping up against your wound. Most well adjusted adults rarely exceed a 6 on the emotional intensity scale. That's a really good goal. Can you get there?
- [24:56]
Tony Miltenberger
Well, so 9, 90% of the day. Like 90% of the day. I don't ever get above a 6.
- [25:03]
Jenny Ertz
Okay.
- [25:04]
Tony Miltenberger
Right. And there, there are some days like today, I didn't get above a 6 at all. I was pretty chill all day. Like it was a good day. You know that the goal here is, is to identify when something bumps up against the parts of who you are that get you really fired up. Now, one of the things to note about the scale, it's an incredible tool for an identification, but it's really important to know that your scale and my scale look different. So my six might look very different than your six. Your one may be I have all these feelings, but I'm not going to talk about them where somebody else's one. Maybe I don't. I've read about feelings. I'VE heard of these things exist. Whereas I'm very emotive. My wife is less emotive. So my 6 looks like her 10. And I'm like, I'm just getting, you know, I'm just getting fired up. I'm just passionate. Right? Like, and she's like, well, why does it always so dramatic? I'm, I'm definitely the more dramatic one in our relationship, which is fine. It works great for me, and that's who I am. And so everybody has a scale. Once you begin to understand your scale, when something bumps up against your wound, you're going to go above a six. So I mentioned that my wound is I want to be seen. So if I'm driving down 75 and somebody cuts me off and I learned, and then I use every word I learned in the army, I tell them they're number one, and I lose all of my cool. I'm not reflecting who I want to be as a person or a parent or a leader. Instead, I'm reacting emotionally. Why? That guy doesn't even know me and I'm yelling at him.
- [26:36]
Jenny Ertz
Right?
- [26:36]
Tony Miltenberger
But maybe it's because it bumps up against that feeling. Hey, I don't matter. You just cut me off. I don't matter. Now here's what's crazy is that it can also work in positive ways. So I mentioned I have two sons. They're big sports, big sports family over here. And so they're middle linebackers. One of them picks six, takes it to the house, scores a touchdown, and.
- [26:59]
Jenny Ertz
Then I go wait for, for the Ohio team.
- [27:02]
Tony Miltenberger
No, I wish my, my freshman place.
- [27:06]
Jenny Ertz
We would be mortal enemies.
- [27:09]
Tony Miltenberger
Well, I am a big Ohio State fan. I know you live in Michigan. It's fine.
- [27:14]
Jenny Ertz
We are mortal enemies. I even went to the University of Michigan. You should probably just get off the podcast right now. I don't even know anything about sports. But our, our team did win with this J.J. guy.
- [27:26]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah, not that long ago your team was pretty. Has been pretty good. I'm anxious to see your team this year.
- [27:30]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, but they cheated though, didn't they? Cheat?
- [27:33]
Tony Miltenberger
Everybody cheats. They just got.
- [27:35]
Jenny Ertz
Everybody cheats. Okay.
- [27:36]
Tony Miltenberger
They just got caught. Okay.
- [27:38]
Jenny Ertz
All right, off we go. So the boys are linebackers, like so.
- [27:41]
Tony Miltenberger
And one of them.
- [27:42]
Jenny Ertz
What does that mean?
- [27:43]
Tony Miltenberger
It means they play defense, right? So they're, they're on the field. That's. They catch the ball when they're not supposed to, they end up scoring.
- [27:50]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, they get interceptions.
- [27:51]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah. Say they get an interception, they score touchdown. And then I go full blown Midwestern Dad. And I begin to yell and holler and scream and I'm chest bumping people and I'm high fiving everyone. What's happened is in that moment, I've made it more about me than it is about them.
- [28:06]
Jenny Ertz
You've gone above a six because they.
- [28:08]
Tony Miltenberger
Bumped up against my wound. What's my wound? I want to be seen.
- [28:10]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, wow, that's deep.
- [28:14]
Tony Miltenberger
Right? So now what's happened is I feel seen through my children's accomplishments, right? And so they bump. They inadvertently again, nobody's fault. Nobody did this on purpose. It's just the result. And here's the thing. The wisest leaders in the world, they just know when it's happening. They can't stop it. You just become aware of it so that you don't make decisions out of it. In that moment, I can make a decision. Oh, I'm putting him in all the training. I'm going to spend all the money. I'm going to do all these things because he's great or he just had a good game or the other quarterback was bad, right? It could be anything. And so the emotional intensity is just. It's a light bulb. It's kind of God's way of saying, pay attention, pay attention, pay attention. And what I challenge people to do, and this is true for parents, it's true for leaders, pastors, everyone in between, is that when you're above a 6, don't make any decisions, put yourself in time out.
- [29:08]
Jenny Ertz
Don't sign up like the $2,000 football camp, right?
- [29:11]
Tony Miltenberger
Don't do it. Just don't do it. If it's a good idea now, it'll be a good idea later, right? And just calm down and reassess until your emotional levels are back to something that is a little bit more normal running for you. And maybe you normally run at a two or three where it's just like. But, you know, here's the thing. It happened to me the other day. I'm. I'm president of the athletic boosters in my little community and I love it. But somebody sent me a very not nice email and I had an immediate emotional reaction to it. I'm like, oh, I'm. And I typed up a response and I'm like, I'm keyboard warrior, right? And so all of a sudden, what I realize is, but you can't send.
- [29:51]
Jenny Ertz
It because you're above a six.
- [29:53]
Tony Miltenberger
I can't send it. I'm above a six, right? So delete, delete. And it took me two days. Took me two days to Come back down. Every time I read that email, I couldn't two days before I could read the email and not be above a six.
- [30:05]
Jenny Ertz
And then. Did you respond?
- [30:06]
Tony Miltenberger
I did. And you know what? Now me and that guy are friends. Wow. Because what I realized is. What I realized is, is, like, this guy is not out to get me. He's bumping up against my old stuff. That's nobody's fault. And it's uniquely a part of who I am. And I have got to wait until I can see this situation for what it is, not what I feel like it is.
- [30:30]
Jenny Ertz
Do you find that it helps you be more empathetic? Because I'm super judgmental about people that are super loud at sports games.
- [30:38]
Tony Miltenberger
Yep. I'm from Ohio, and I'm super loud at sports games. We would not be friends outside of podcasts.
- [30:43]
Jenny Ertz
Not even. And not even, like, normal sports games. Like, okay, I get it if you're going to go to the Final Four or you're going to go see your team, whatever. But, like, when it comes to their kids, I'm just like, especially the thing I can't stand. Cheer, chest bump, all of those things I can't stand. When the parent is yelling instructions, like, from the stand.
- [31:02]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah. Don't coach from the stands.
- [31:04]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. They can't hear you and what are you doing? But your story, instead of me being like, you're odd, why are you doing that? It makes me think, oh, it's probably coming from. Yeah.
- [31:17]
Tony Miltenberger
So one of the things that I really believe is that Grace lived out is empathy plus curiosity.
- [31:23]
Jenny Ertz
Huh.
- [31:24]
Tony Miltenberger
And so if I can be empathetic, like, I wonder. I wonder why their son or daughter being so good matters so much to them.
- [31:32]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [31:33]
Tony Miltenberger
I wonder what their life is like growing up. Yeah.
- [31:36]
Jenny Ertz
I'm sure there's a reason.
- [31:37]
Tony Miltenberger
I'm sure there's a reason. Right.
- [31:39]
Jenny Ertz
Maybe they wanted to play sports, but they lived in poverty and no one take them. Or someone died and they lost. They didn't get to go to the championship game or something.
- [31:48]
Tony Miltenberger
Like, yeah, a hundred reasons nobody ever wakes up. I've never met anyone in counseling or in coaching who woke up and said, man, today's the day that I want to ruin my relationship with my kids. Or, today's the day that I want to ruin my marriage.
- [32:03]
Jenny Ertz
Right.
- [32:04]
Tony Miltenberger
Instead, what happens is we make a bunch of little choices that over time have a compounding effect. And so I'm just a really big believer that we have to become aware, like, the wisest leaders that I've ever met or followed or read about. They all have something in common. They don't have an absence of wounding, but they have an intimacy with their wound. So now, through all of these years, through 10 years of counseling, which I still see, my counselor, Dr. Steve, is incredible. Right? Like, I still do all these things to try to stay healthy. And here's what I can tell you is that you can bump up against my wound in a way now and I can laugh at it more than it'll make me cry.
- [32:43]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, yeah, Because.
- [32:45]
Tony Miltenberger
Because I just know that that's a part of it. I just love it. Like, it's part of who I am. Like, I am that guy that wants to be seen. I'm going to be. If you give me a microphone, I'm going to talk on it.
- [32:55]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, same.
- [32:57]
Tony Miltenberger
I don't know how to do it. Right. That's right. It's just. It's part of. It's part of now. But here's the other thing is I. I do believe I have a unique gifting to see people.
- [33:07]
Jenny Ertz
This is all really intriguing. Some big takeaways for me. First of all, the thing about talking to your kids about if. When. Because you say your kids are most definitely wounded. I've yet to find a parent who hasn't wounded their kids. You open the door to have better conversations there because you can say, this wasn't my intention, but I can see how what I did, or the way our life was set up, or the fact that you have all these siblings or these twin babies or whatever, I can see how that affected you in these different ways. So that's number one. That's super helpful. Number two is this six out of ten. You know, you get to a seven, and that's going to clue you in because I actually don't totally know what mine is yet. And I've been like, mulling it over in my head. So I'm like, the next time I get to a seven, then I'm going to pay a little bit more attention. And also the fact that you said you don't make any big decisions, then wait till it calms down. It might take a couple days. So I'm taking that away. And the stuff about Grace then is really helpful too, because then you can look at other people's especially their emotional reactions and basically assume it's probably coming from something. So there's a lot. I mean, these are things I haven't considered and are really practical to take into my life. So I'm really thankful to have read it. The book is called Wisdom in the wound. And it will already be out by the time this podcast goes live. Since we are on the 1000 Hours Outside podcast, can you talk about your hiking club?
- [34:32]
Tony Miltenberger
Yes, I. So in 2018, my family and I decided to go hiking throughout the Midwest, right? And so we went all the way out to South Dakota and then we went to Wisconsin. So we did the Black Hills and we did the Badlands, and.
- [34:47]
Jenny Ertz
Wow. How did you decide. I'm going to back up just one step. How did you decide to do it and how did you decide where to go?
- [34:56]
Tony Miltenberger
So I was on Sabat. I had just graduated seminary. And so I was in this space where I had worked so many nights in a row writing papers, reading books. And so the church was like, very generous church, said, hey, we want to give you something as a seminary, as a graduation present. And I said, what I would really like is a month off to go be with my kids. And I want to learn some stuff about the church, like the big C church, like the global church. I want to learn some things. And so I was like, okay, let's put together a trip. And my wife and I kind of sat down and we said, we have some friends in Appleton, Wisconsin, which is up north. So we knew that we were going to spend one week there and we're going to go to the Dells. And then. Okay, so then there's the largest church in our kind of group of churches or denomination was in St. Louis. So we're like, okay, let's. I want to visit that church and just see what. How they do church. What can we learn from them? And then the fastest growing, at that point in time, Methodist church in the country was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Guy by the name of Adam Weber. He's an incredible guy, also a Bengals fan. It's always worth noting. And he's an incredible dude. And so I was like, let's. Let's go visit his church, too and see what we can learn. And then along the way, what we'll do is we'll camp and then we'll just camp and we'll have fun and we'll just unplug. And then on the weekends, we'll do laundry and stay in a hotel for a couple of days. And so we kind of split the balance of all of that. So then we. We camped in the Black Hills, and while we were out there, there was this incredible. The highest point in South Dakota is in the Black Hills. It's just over 7,000ft. I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head. But we decided as a family that we were going to hike all the way to the top. And my daughter did not do great. She did not do well at all. And I carried her for a large portion.
- [36:48]
Jenny Ertz
Well, she would have been pretty little.
- [36:50]
Tony Miltenberger
She was pretty little. She was pretty little. She's. It was fine. I was happy to carry her. But one of the things that we realized is our family really loved hiking, and she didn't like it.
- [37:01]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [37:02]
Tony Miltenberger
And so that makes life tricky. It makes life tricky. So we got back 2000, you know, we. School year, started all this stuff. 2019. I was like, hey, babe, daughter, babe. We're gonna start this thing called hiking club. And she was like, this sounds awful. She didn't want to do it. And I said. I said, here's the deal. We're gonna go three days a week, and if you do all three days, then we'll have a daddy daughter ice cream date. And two out of the three days, you can pick the route. And one day, I get to pick the route. And so we kind of set all of these rules up, right, all of these agreements. And she's going along because she respects me and because I'm her dad. And she never really wanted to do it. But there were more than a couple occasions where we had these moments where we would have these sweet moments. But then there was one particular moment that I write about in the book where she. She just. She just melted. It was a full meltdown. And there was a porter potty involved. There was a. She had a, like, peanut butter cracker. She was trying to take him into the porta potty. Like, it was hot, and it was miserable, and she was crying, and I'm on the verge of tears, and I'm not. I'm so angry with her. And in hindsight, I was angry in that moment because I felt like she didn't care about what I wanted. Right. I didn't feel seen, like, hey, why don't you want to do this with me? This is so great. This is a great idea. Yeah, it's a great idea for you, dad. It's not a great idea for her. I didn't honor any of her feelings. Now, I'm not suggesting that that would have changed our actions. Like, there are things that you do as parents all the time, regardless of how your kids feel about it. It's called parenting. Right. However, for me to get angry at her response is really. It's kind of blind. Emotionally blind. I should have expected that response. She didn't want to go. I was making her.
- [38:59]
Jenny Ertz
Right.
- [39:00]
Tony Miltenberger
And she's a young child who doesn't have the coping skills to hold all that in. She's just emoting. If I could go back in time, what I would do now is I would just sit with her in it.
- [39:12]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [39:12]
Tony Miltenberger
Until. Until she just cried it all out. And then if we had time to hike, great. And if we didn't, great.
- [39:18]
Jenny Ertz
And I know it's hard and I know you don't like it. And the reason we're doing it this. And you know, you say it's important to teach your kids to do hard things. This is why we made the decision. But I understand you hate it. And that's it. And then off you go. Interesting. Yeah. Really interesting. To start to think about our reactions and why they show up the way they do. I love that you wrote in the book that because of this wound that sometimes you apply for jobs that you don't need just to see if they'll accept you. That's so great.
- [39:50]
Tony Miltenberger
I just. I just want people to, like, I.
- [39:53]
Jenny Ertz
Want them to want me.
- [39:54]
Tony Miltenberger
I want them to. And I love to apply for jobs that I'm not qualified for and send audacious cover letters.
- [40:01]
Jenny Ertz
Do they want me? And then can you imagine, though, sometimes on the other end, like, maybe they really do. And then you're like, just kidding. I already have a job.
- [40:09]
Tony Miltenberger
I don't.
- [40:10]
Jenny Ertz
I just want you to want me. Yeah.
- [40:11]
Tony Miltenberger
I just know that sometimes when I'm not sure how I'm feeling, like if I'm off, I have to do something. Like I. I just have to do something that reminds me that I'm okay.
- [40:21]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [40:21]
Tony Miltenberger
You know, and writing a cover letter that talks about all the gifts I have makes me feel okay.
- [40:28]
Jenny Ertz
It's good. Well, like you said, it's better than drinking, you know, like.
- [40:34]
Tony Miltenberger
It'S better than so many things.
- [40:36]
Jenny Ertz
Some people drink and I write cover letters. Okay, that's great. Very practical. Very practical.
- [40:41]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:42]
Jenny Ertz
Well, and I think it's very practical like you figured out why you react the way you react and what are some things that could help you in a practical way to work through that instead of some of these non productive ways or things that might even be harmful. So, yeah, it's. It's all. It's all really interesting. Super helpful. You talk about sitting in your feelings and shifting from being reactive to reflective. That's in the book. And healing doesn't happen in isolation, obviously. A lot about faith. You talk a lot about distractions here in New York. We celebrate every story and every shade. That's why Maybelline created Fit Me Matte and poreless foundation with 40 true to tone shades. It's inspired by the city and the people who own it, whatever their skin tone and texture. Plus it controls shine, blurs pores and lasts all day. There's a Fit Me for Every you visit maybelline.com to find your fitness.
- [41:34]
Tony Miltenberger
This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke.
- [41:36]
Jenny Ertz
You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh?
- [41:39]
Tony Miltenberger
An ice cold Diet Coke isn't just.
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Jenny Ertz
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- [42:10]
Tony Miltenberger
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- [42:44]
Jenny Ertz
Ask your doctor about epglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979. I'm curious how you went from being in the military to being a podcaster, a coach, an executive coach, a pastor and a leader and all the other things you're doing.
- [43:05]
Tony Miltenberger
When I enlisted in the Army, I was a junior in high school, so it was 1998, right? And I was in the Army Reserve and I stayed there for 14 years.
- [43:16]
Jenny Ertz
Do you think that that Is. It's really interesting to me that you could be allowed to make that decision. As a junior in high school, I.
- [43:27]
Tony Miltenberger
Was an old junior, so I was. I was turning 18. Right. And so my parents had to sign a form. And the thing in my life that felt the most safe and secure to me was my church group and my Civil Air patrol group, which was this kind of paramilitary thing that I was doing. Yep.
- [43:51]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. Oh, we have friends that do civil Air Patrol.
- [43:53]
Tony Miltenberger
I love it. Loved it, loved it.
- [43:56]
Jenny Ertz
And they love it. It's girls.
- [43:58]
Tony Miltenberger
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [43:59]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Tony Miltenberger
It was one of those things for me that I got to do. Drill team, we got to camp outside. We. They call them bivouacs. But, like, it was like, all of these things that we got to do. It was like my. It was my thing. And the deal is, is that you can be positioned as a leader there. And, like, I can look at it in hindsight now and know this and feel like you really matter.
- [44:18]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Tony Miltenberger
Right. Which is what you need. It's what I needed. It's what I needed. And so, you know, my story, my personal story as a child. My parents end up getting divorced when I'm eight. So this is that. That's called big T trauma.
- [44:33]
Jenny Ertz
Right.
- [44:33]
Tony Miltenberger
And big T trauma magnifies little T trauma, and that's okay. You know, I absolutely know that my parents are doing the best they could, and it's not my fault. And it's all of those things that you work through in counseling for years and years. But the reality is, is I wanted something that would help me propel myself to independence.
- [44:55]
Jenny Ertz
Okay. So it was a good.
- [44:56]
Tony Miltenberger
It was great.
- [44:57]
Jenny Ertz
That. That's amazing, actually, that, you know, that's a lot of self awareness to have as a junior in high school and to know this is what I really want.
- [45:04]
Tony Miltenberger
And the truth is, is I had to get some self awareness quickly because I wasn't always making great decisions in high school, and. And I was very fortunate to be surrounded by adults that cared about me, including my parents, but not just my parents. And so there was an incident in between my junior and senior year where I made a poor choice, and I slapped a girl. And I slapped her really hard, and I was pretty strong, and I put her on the ground, and it was unfortunate, and it was wrong, and I. So that. That forced me into my first bout of spiritual direction slash counseling. And it was good because by the time I left to the army, that anger. I had learned how to deal with it.
- [45:50]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [45:51]
Tony Miltenberger
And so I get into the army reserves. I'm A chaplain's assistant.
- [45:55]
Jenny Ertz
What does that mean?
- [45:56]
Tony Miltenberger
It means I helped do church stuff in the army.
- [46:00]
Jenny Ertz
How did you end up doing that?
- [46:02]
Tony Miltenberger
I knew it was a possibility because of Civil Air Patrol and because of research and because of the things that I had learned. So I knew that I wanted to do church stuff, and I wanted to do army stuff.
- [46:13]
Jenny Ertz
Chaplain's assistant.
- [46:15]
Tony Miltenberger
And you don't have to have any education for that. You can just go in and be trained and get a lot of experiences. So I also knew that I wanted to join the reserves because I was dating my high school sweetheart, who I thought I was going to marry. And. And spoiler alert, I did.
- [46:30]
Jenny Ertz
You did.
- [46:31]
Tony Miltenberger
I did. We've been married for did. It'll be 23 years job. 23 years in February.
- [46:36]
Jenny Ertz
Wow, Tony, you had a really strong head on your shoulders, like you knew what you wanted. Well, that's really impressive. But I have more questions.
- [46:43]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah.
- [46:44]
Jenny Ertz
How do they train a chaplain's assistant?
- [46:46]
Tony Miltenberger
So it's nine weeks in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and they train you in a multitude of different face. There are, like, at the time, I don't know how they do it now, but when I was there, they train you how to do religious support for all the different types of face. So I could set up for a synagogue, or I could set it up for an imam, which is a Islamic chaplain, or a Catholic priest or a Protestant chaplain or whatever the case is. You learn how to. To set all of those things up in a very basic way. And then you also do security for the chaplain, because chaplains don't carry weapons, and so chaplain's assistants do carry weapons. So my mom wanted to be like, he's a bodyguard for the chaplain, you know, and we're like, well, it's. I guess that's technically true, although I wasn't nearly as cool as that sounded. And. And you do that for nine weeks, and then you get a chaplain, and then you work as a team. It's called a unit ministry team. And that teamwork then helps minister to soldiers. And so I. I got to do that. And I was in the reserves, and there were opportunities for me to sign up to do stuff. So in. In 2000, I went to El Salvador for a month. In 2001, I went to Germany for six months. I got married in 2003, and then in 2004, I went to Kuwait and Iraq for a year, and then I came back from that. And in 2007-2008, after some readjustment issues that I was having, the Army Was like, hey, I got to do marriage retreats for soldiers coming back from deployment.
- [48:15]
Jenny Ertz
Wow. Who even knew that there would be.
- [48:17]
Tony Miltenberger
These opportunities, so many opportunities. If you're willing to show up and say yes and keep learning. Right. Like, it's one of the things that I believe about the army is that if you're willing to lean in and take advantage, opportunities. I went to all of these trainings after I almost ruined my marriage coming back from deployment. So the problem with these kind of wounds is that if you don't begin to deal, learn how to deal with your emotions, eventually your emotions will deal with you. And it's just true. If you don't learn how to cope, if you don't learn how to reconcile, if you don't learn how to breathe and take the time, then eventually all of those things will bubble up. And so when I got back from deployment, it was not an easy adjustment for me. And the feeling of worth was at the core of all of it. And I couldn't recognize it then. So I went to all the trainings that the army had, and I began to learn. And then eventually they offered me a job teaching the. Doing the trainings for soldiers.
- [49:14]
Jenny Ertz
What was it that made it such a hard adjustment back?
- [49:17]
Tony Miltenberger
I felt like I didn't matter. I felt like what I was doing over there was so important. Yeah, there's a. There's a. It was an interesting moment. So I. I was gone for eight months. I came home for two weeks, and then I was gone for four more months from 2004 to 2005.
- [49:33]
Jenny Ertz
And you're married at this point?
- [49:35]
Tony Miltenberger
I'm married. And so that's called R and R. So I came home for R and R. And it was a really good trip. Like, it was a really good two weeks home. And a couple of weeks after I came home, I got an email from my wife. Her name's Karen. She said, hey, I need you to call me right away. So first chance I get, I call her, and she goes, guess what? We're pregnant. And I was like, What? And so 2000 and 2005, I'm finishing up my deployment, and I find out we're pregnant. We're in our first trimester. I missed the whole first trimester because I was still deployed. I came back, she's in her second trimester, and I don't really have a job.
- [50:16]
Jenny Ertz
No, that's hard.
- [50:18]
Tony Miltenberger
And I'm feeling the weight of all of this. We're just like, six months ago, I was literally walking alongside some of the bravest Humans I've met, we're doing all of these things in the theater of operations. Like, I'm doing a lot of really what felt like super important stuff. And one day my wife just looked at me and said, hey, will you take out the trash? I don't even sure she said, hey, will you. I think she said, hey, take out the trash. And I lost it. I became emotionally dysregulated. I was like, do you want me to take out the trash? Like, do you know what I've done? Do you know what I've seen? And I just, you know, I just. I emotionally. I just emotionally react. And she immediately starts to cry. She goes into the bedroom, and I go into the bedroom. I'm crying, and I kneel in front of her. I put my head on her pregnant belly, and her tears are kind of just like splashing the back of my head. And. And I look up at her and I say, I think I have to go back to the war, because it's the only thing that feels like it makes sense.
- [51:18]
Jenny Ertz
But you didn't.
- [51:19]
Tony Miltenberger
Don't say, well, because I married really well. And this is what happened. She grabbed me by my cheeks like you would a kid, and she said, I'm not going to let you go. We're going to figure this out. And then I became obsessive about learning as much as I can about how to get a better marriage and how to get. How to figure that out and, like, how to do this well and how do we begin to communicate it? And. And that was really the spark of, like, yeah, hey, I. I don't have to feel this way all the time. And in 2007, I went to Minnesota for a year and traveled around the Midwest doing marriage retreats for soldiers coming back from deployment with one of my. One of my dear friends and spiritual mentors.
- [52:06]
Jenny Ertz
Wow. This all makes sense then, because your life experiences gave you this foundation to do all the things that you're doing right now. Like, you have so much to offer people because you've had your own personal experience. But then that's led to all of these other learning opportunities and interactions with all sorts of different people. How interesting. I had this experience when I was in my early 20s. And my best friend growing up, she got married before I did and had a baby quite early on, like, in the marriage. And her husband was also in some sort of a deployment situation, and he missed the birth as well as at least the first several months of life. I can't quite remember how long it was, and I Actually went down and stayed with her. She lived in a different state. And I came down and she was all alone. Right. With this newborn baby.
- [52:52]
Tony Miltenberger
Sure.
- [52:52]
Jenny Ertz
And so me and my mom went for a little bit and helped. And the baby was super colicky, and she's up at night. We even put the baby. This is like, so. Like in our early 20s is probably, like, so dangerous. But, like, we put the baby. The baby just, like, would not sleep. And so, you know, you're there. You're like, you know, 22 years old or got your friend here. And, like, I don't even know what to do. So the baby would sleep if you put the baby. This could sound so bad if you put the baby. And I think we must have taped it down really good, but, like, in a bouncy seat on the dryer. And then you would run the dryer.
- [53:26]
Tony Miltenberger
Oh, sure.
- [53:27]
Jenny Ertz
And the baby would sleep, and we laid on this, like, concrete floor right next to the dryer. And then after an hour, it would turn off. You know, the dryer goes off. And then one of us would wake up and turn it back. Yeah, but. But, you know, and I mean, it's just so hard. You got this baby and you just. You're all alone. But I do remember her talking about how difficult it was for the husband to reenter into that situation because you've done it all by yourself. You probably have some trauma from that, you know, and then here comes the husband who's, like you said, been doing all these really important things, and then all of a sudden, they're in this situation with the crying baby, and the mom's been doing it on her own, and how does he assimilate in. And whose responsibilities who. And I could see it would be really, really difficult.
- [54:09]
Tony Miltenberger
And one of the things that. That. That happens a lot amongst humans is that we have this tendency to compare pain. And so it's like, hey, your pain must be so worse than my pain. So I don't want to talk about my pain because it doesn't compare.
- [54:22]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [54:23]
Tony Miltenberger
And really what happens in those moments is we shut off intimacy is that we can't be intimate if we're not honest. We can't be intimate if we're not open. And so we have to remove some of those barriers and say, hey, this is what's going on inside of me. I'm really not sure what to do. Or this is what I'm thinking, or. And just share it, knowing that, like, you know, my wife's experience is going to be completely different than mine. Or my kids experience. Right. I don't want to invalidate their experience. I want to just honor it and hold it. And now in my marriage, we use a term that's a code word that we use for, like, when one of us really needs to just vent about our feelings. And we say, hey, will you just sit in the mud puddle with me? And that's just permission for that person to just let it all out. Right. We're just in the mud puddle. I'm not going to try to fix it. I'm not going to try to do anything with it. And sometimes I say it to her, sometimes she says it to me, and it's like, hey, baby, just want to say I need to sit in the mud puddle for a little bit. Is that. Do you have. Is this okay if we do this now? And. And it gives us permission to wade into murky emotional waters together?
- [55:25]
Jenny Ertz
It's all really good advice. I can see why you do what you do, why you do executive coaching and pastoring and leadering. What are some of the topics people really like to hear about on your podcast? Follow to lead.
- [55:37]
Tony Miltenberger
One of the questions that we often wrestle with is how do we hear from God? You know, and how do we know when the right time? I think a lot of weight leaders feel the weight of decision making, and everyone's so afraid that they. They're going to get it wrong.
- [55:53]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [55:53]
Tony Miltenberger
And so we often talk about how you discern God's voice versus the burrito you ate the night before. Or what are some of the marks of, like, really productive leaders? Like, what do you do? How can we hack it? How can we. And the reality is, and you know, this is that there is no hack. It's just everybody just keeps showing up and grinds it out and does it one day at a time. And so. And we also love to hear stories, man. We just love to hear stories about how. How things that could have turned out really horribly end up being really beautiful.
- [56:23]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, that's really powerful. Gives people a lot of hope.
- [56:25]
Tony Miltenberger
Yeah.
- [56:26]
Jenny Ertz
Well, that's wonderful. So the podcast is called Follow to lead a Christian leaders podcast. The new book is called Wisdom in the Wound. How God uses your past to shape who you're becoming. It will be out by the time this podcast goes live. Tony, we always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [56:45]
Tony Miltenberger
I knew you were gonna ask this question because I prepped and listened to the podcast episodes. And so we have a family chat and I made everybody in my family answer. I made my siblings and my mom answer it. And. And it was beautiful. And it helped refresh some memories of my own. And so I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say Paul's Pay lake. Paul's Pay lake in Ohio. Like 1989 fishing derby champion right here. And there's a. There's this picture that my mom has of me in this leather jacket that's a little bit too big. It was clearly a hand me down. I love it. And I'm holding this catfish by string. And I was just out there and just absolutely loved it. It was so beautiful. And my mom, actually, that was one of her favorite memories too. We had this disaster. Mr. Ish kind of old fishing trailer on this pay lake. I'm not even sure where it was. I couldn't find it right now if you paid me. And. And Paul's pay Lake. It's. That's just one of those spaces where we just hung out by the lake and. And just fished all the time. It's beautiful.
- [57:47]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, that is a total pinnacle moment to win the fishing derby. That's a huge deal.
- [57:52]
Tony Miltenberger
Huge deal. Yeah, I was. I wish I knew where the trophy was.
- [57:56]
Jenny Ertz
You should just have a new one made. That's incredible. Well, Tony, I so appreciate it. What an honor to get a chance to talk with you and to read your book. Like I said, there are some key things that I have already taken away from it and know that will enhance our family's life and my own personal life. So really appreciate you being here.
- [58:15]
Tony Miltenberger
Thank you for your generosity and for what you do for so many families out there. It's a beautiful work.
- [58:21]
Jenny Ertz
Thanks, Tony.
- [58:22]
Tony Miltenberger
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- [58:29]
Jenny Ertz
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- [58:31]
Tony Miltenberger
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- [58:33]
Jenny Ertz
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- [58:34]
Tony Miltenberger
Cue the emu music. Limu.
- [58:37]
Jenny Ertz
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- [58:46]
Tony Miltenberger
That may have been too much. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com.
- [58:50]
Jenny Ertz
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- [58:53]
Tony Miltenberger
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- [58:57]
Jenny Ertz
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