← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 593: It's Our Duty to Protect Childhood | Sean Dietrich, Over Yonder
01:01:03
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- [00:03]
A
Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New team. The new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours outside and back for the fourth time. This is so cool. Shawn Diederich, welcome.
- [00:42]
B
Thank you for having me. Four times. Wow.
- [00:45]
A
Four times. One of the times you were in a parking lot at the mall that.
- [00:50]
B
Yesterday I did the same thing to some poor woman. She said, oh, you're in your car. I said, I'm sorry, I'm on the road today. And so we did a podcast in the car.
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A
Yeah. I think you were surrounded by, like, stringed instruments. You could see instruments everywhere.
- [01:07]
B
Lady was not quite as gracious as you were. So.
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A
Well, you travel. You travel and do. It's really remarkable, Sean. You talk in your books about how you dropped out of school in the middle school, seventh grade, and today you are traveling the country, probably the world, doing shows and music and telling people your story. And then also you're an author and you have written so many books. It's a remarkable story. If anyone has had a hard life and they just need some hope, they've got to check out your books. Last year I got your book Will the Circle Be Unbroken for a bunch of my friends for Christmas. That was my Christmas gift and I was at my sister in law's house and it was on her shelf and I was like, oh, it was really cool to see. So actually, I'm going to advise the same thing. Today I read your book over yonder and it's a fiction. It'll be out when this podcast goes live. And I also read the absolute worst Christmas of all time. And I just feel like if you're heading to holidays, you know, this is October, so all the holiday stuff's already out. Even in September, the holiday stuff's already out. You're like, I need to take a hostess gift. You just bundle these two books together, it'll be like the perfect thing.
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B
I'm gonna hire you to be my new, like, you know, PR everything. Because you're. You're awesome.
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A
Isn't it great, though? Like, you know, you're always supposed to take a little something, and I think if you bring some books to read, especially over the hectic holiday time, it's the perfect thing to do. So the absolute worst Christmas of all time is a bunch of shorter stories. And then over yonder is this long fiction. I was curious, John, is it difficult to transition between that. Those two types of styles?
- [02:49]
B
Yeah, I mean, the hardest thing to write is something short. The. Because when you have long things, you. You have endless words to say what you want to say. But to say something and say it short is at least. It's hard for me, but it's. It's a fun exercise. So I love to write short, namely because I have a fourth grade attention span. So if I can do it short, I know that I. I'll have more fun where I don't have to sustain that focus forever.
- [03:19]
A
So on your website, then you have. Every single day you have a. You know, it's something like 600ish words, something that you write. So you write about Otis, your dog, you know, you. You write about just recent things and old things and every single day. And then you have. I mean, the. The list of books is so lengthy and I have enjoyed them so tremendously. The ones that I've read, I actually have quite a bit of them. I have like this stack.
- [03:45]
B
Oh, wow.
- [03:46]
A
I have quite. I read quite a few and I still enjoy them.
- [03:49]
B
I am so honored. And actually in your video, I can see my book. I'm pointing at my screen. I can see my book right there. It's awesome.
- [03:57]
A
They've been a really, really fun part of my adulthood. So just honored to talk with you. I remember the first time that I got asked to do an interview. Maybe I asked. I probably I asked to do it, but it was for a fiction work. And I kind of thought, what in the world are we going to talk about for a story? You know, like, how can you talk about a fiction work on a podcast? But what is so interesting, Sean, is that in every fiction work, I almost feel like it bears your soul. Because when you read it from the standpoint of I'm going to talk to this author, you start to see their beliefs. Their beliefs kind of bleed through in a lot of different ways. And then sometimes you're like, well, do they really think this or is this just part of the story? You know, what does the author think about this, that and the other thing? So over Yan Wonder is the story of. Of people who are broken.
- [04:45]
B
Yes.
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A
And who have had hard paths and their paths cross in new ways. It's a story that gives you hope, but also a page turner. Like, what's going to happen next. But one of the topics that gets brought up a lot in this one, you're like, is this Sean bearing his soul is cell phones.
- [05:04]
B
Yeah. Oh yeah. I found that actually coming up naturally in it while I was writing it because they're just unavoidable almost, you know, they're, they're becoming so much a part of life that they're almost unavoidable. And this was actually a big deal I, I kept when it comes to writing because this is the first book I've ever written that involves any cell phone usage. All of my other books have never had a cell phone mentioned, at least not that I know of. So I actually considered changing the whole book to another time period so that I didn't have to use cell phones. And I realized, you know, this is not where people are though. People are, we are, we live in this world. And I kind of have to, I can't ignore it. So it was actually very difficult for me to figure out how to use it and still make the book have the same feel that I wanted it to have because I realized immediately once you introduce that into writing, it changes the entire feel of what you're reading. It changes the entire person to person communication. And then that in turn to me was an extreme example of what it does to us as a culture. Just, you know, in some ways it absolutely wrecks, it wrecks things. But yeah, that. So I, I chose to use the cell phones and even looking back now, when I read it in the studio to do a audiobook, I thought, wow, wow, maybe I should have not. I don't know. But I, I don't know.
- [06:37]
A
Well, it's like, how can you write a modern day story without it? Even when you see old movies or old TV shows?
- [06:43]
B
Yes.
- [06:44]
A
You're like, gosh, that wouldn't have happened or that wouldn't have been like that because of cell phones. And then you do have other parts of it where you're like the, you know, the young girl in the story, she uses the app, like, you know, they're tracking someone. So like she uses the app and she says something like, I, you know, I know how to use this app. I've been using it for however long. So you know, there are those points where you're like, well, you can see how it's helpful. But you really, you really go after it in this one, you know, you talk about the, you know, the nine year old has one zoned out face of a kid caught with the electronic stupor of the great American technological attention deficit disorder. Thumbing away on the screen. And you talk about how it's hard to keep up with the rules. The rules get hazier by the day from the parent. And there's a lot of different people that comment on it. And it's that part and then it's also the yearning. So there's another character in the story that 17, she grew up in the foster care system and so she just doesn't have much. She's got her fish, you know, she has her fish, Gary.
- [07:45]
B
Right.
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A
And not much else besides that. And so she's just so longing for this phone. And it's such an emotional part.
- [07:52]
B
Yeah, I noticed I based a lot of that on a true untrue events and true people that I know. And I've noticed that young people who grow up in those kinds of systems without those kinds of privileges, they focus their. Like you said, they're yearning on that one thing on a cell phone. And it's a huge deal for them. Whereas maybe some modern American kids, it's not that big of a deal because it's. It's kind of taken for granted. But boy, for some of them, it's enormous. I. It's funny you mentioned all this because during the writing of this book, I went, I think it was almost four months without a cell phone. I put it down and I was writing about it too. And it was, it was perhaps one of the most profound awakenings that I think I've ever had. I got a little flip phone. So it's. It was not. It was, it was a piece of junk is what it was. Cost $50 and it had one like, you know, calculator type screen. And I went into public the first time with this thing and I felt helpless because I live in Birmingham. I've only lived in Birmingham for this is fourth year, four years, and it's a really spaghetti like city. I know how to get to where I want to go, but when I go somewhere that I don't know how to get to, I need to use a gps. Well, I had no gps, so I pulled over the gas station and the guy pulled out his phone and looked on his GPS because he's been living here his whole life and yet he didn't know how to get there either. So then I got to the doctor's office where I was looking to go. And when I got in there, I got there early. I was 30 minutes early. And I was like, all right, great, 30 minutes early. And the waiting room was empty. So I'll be able to get into this doctor's office early. I went up to the lady at the nurses station and said, I'm here, I'm early. Looks like there's an empty waiting room. She said, oh great, you can get in early. She said, you're gonna have to check in on your phone. I said, well, I don't, I don't have a phone. She said, you don't have a phone? I said, no, I don't. She said, well, you can't check in, I guess without it, you'll have to wait till your appointment time begins. I said, can't you check me out in your system? She said, I'm sorry sir, that's not the way the system works. So I sat in the waiting room for 30 minutes. The doctor had been willing to see me early, the woman had been willing to let me get in early, but because I didn't have a phone to get into the system, it would have wrecked their paperwork and all that. So I just sat in the waiting room thumbing away, reading a 40 year old copy of Cosmopolitan magazine. And it was all because I didn't have a phone. So while I was writing this book, I was kind of going through a lot of that, not, not using the phone. And it was an awakening.
- [10:37]
A
Yeah. And the systems are just set up that way and then you can't get around it. You, you have this paragraph in here. Woody knew that phones were the downfall of modern civilization. Not only because of what the phones were doing to our brains. And an average American checks their phone 350 times per day. This is what's interesting about fiction. You think, oh, I'm just going to read a story. But there's so many little things in there as an author that you can throw in, like your opinions and it's less in your face. Right. Because it's just woven into a story.
- [11:05]
B
Yeah, right.
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A
But you can really throw in your opinion 350 times per day. But because of what smartphones were doing to our mortality rates. So then you talk about this at phones were dangerous. You know, this is part of the story as well. Like, you know, and he's talking about how this 1.6 million automobile crashes per year, that even just walking, that there's all of these injuries and even sometimes deaths. And then you talk about how like it, what does it do to your focus in your attention span and you feel like you have to check it and you can't even, these are the limitations. You can't even pull over and buy A map.
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B
That's right.
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A
Is they don't sell them anymore.
- [11:43]
B
Yeah. And in. In England, they're padding upright column like things that they have downtown because people. The amount of people who are walking into poles and columns because they're looking at their phone and developing serious. Not just small injuries, but serious injuries like concussions and can and. And subdural hematomas. So they've. They've started padding uprights and they're starting to do it in New York City, too, because people are. Are walking and looking and you are actually, I can't remember the exact statistic, but for young women under the age of 20, you have a pretty statistical high chance of. Of getting hurt while texting and walking. It's actually a big number of, you know, texting and walking and running. Boom. Head first into something or falling into a hole or what.
- [12:36]
A
You say it's like 70% of the deaths are young women.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That are texting and walking. It almost is like they're toddler proofing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That's what you do when you have a toddler. Right. You put the little thing on the side of the table, you know, a little foam piece. But they're doing it for adults out in public.
- [12:55]
B
It's hard for me to. To stand by and watch what it's doing. Not. Not to just everybody else, but to me, because, you know, I'm. I'm guilty. I mean, I saw. I went four months. Right. Without using a phone. But as soon as I. I realized you can't live in this culture without this. I mean, it was so hard. It was so almost impossible the way that you can't do little things without it. When I finally picked the cell phone back up, it was like. Oh, it was like a drug. You know what I mean? It was. It lit up pieces of my brain that I'd forgotten. And it's. I don't know how to live. I've found a better balance, I think, but not. Not really. I mean, I'm back to just the way it was before. Because it.
- [13:40]
A
Because it's addictive. It's designed to be.
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B
Yeah. It's almost impossible not to. To function. You can't socialize. You can't do anything without it.
- [13:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's such interesting commentary because it's not just that. Then you go through and you talk about how it's really changed childhood. And one of the mom characters in the book, she's talking about riding bikes, and she says it really comes up quite a bit, like, throughout the book. Talking about the phones, it made her yearn for simpler days. Back when there was no Internet, no iPhones, back when a girl's most important possession was her bicycle. How had we traded in such unspoiled days? So, just talking about, you know, like we're looking around the restaurant, everyone's on the phone like a zombie, and that the. Even the percentage. This really fits well with this podcast, Shawn. The percentage of kids that ride bikes has dropped so dramatically.
- [14:35]
B
Yes.
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A
She says, when we were kids, 70%, 7 out of 10 kids, American kids are out riding bikes. Now it's 9% less than 1 out of 10.
- [14:45]
B
Yeah, that. That shocked me. When I was doing research for that part. I read that between the years of 1920 and 2000, and I think it was 2010, maybe it was like 70% of American school children rode bikes. And between 2010 and 2025, it had dropped to a single digit, like 9% sometimes, some places like 7%. And it breaks my heart because I am a member of that last generation. I think you are too. That last generation that knew what it was like to not have an Internet. We had a landline, rotary phone, one in the whole house that it was in the kitchen with a, you know, big old twisty rotary dial. I can remember when my parents got a phone in their bedroom, and it was kind of a big deal. And childhood was extremely different. We got out in the mornings because our moms told us to get outside, go play, and we'd go outside unsupervised, and we would ride our bikes. And the way that you would find your friend was to look for the house with all the piles of bikes in the front yard. And then you would knock on the door and you would have a face to face, person to person exchange with an adult. And you would not be intimidated. You would not look away. You would not feel weird or embarrassed. You would just look that adult straight in the eye and say, is can so and so come outside and play. And then you would have to be forced to deal with rejection if so and so was practicing her piano lessons or whatever. And then we would go outside. We would find our way into the woods. Still no supervision, still no texting to keep in touch with mom and dad. There was no this constant communication. And we're in the woods and we're inventing new ways to break each other's arms, and we're swinging from trees and we're building campfires, and we're doing all sorts of things that you should not do. And these are Back in the days when several of us were walking to school too, which is also something that's not widely practiced. So anyway, I, I think back on those memories and I living in the world I live in now, I think to myself, is this real? Am I, have I manufactured all this? Is this, did I fake all this in my brain? Is my brain remembering this as an idyllic childhood? Probably a little bit. But the truth is we really did have a, a much simpler way of being a child. And so had our parents and so had the parents before them. And this is, I think, some of the first generations where they don't get the privilege of that simplicity. And it's, it does make me sad a little bit.
- [17:32]
A
Isn't it interesting that a way of life can go extinct? It's a whole way of life, yes. That has completely changed. 70% of kids have bikes. And down to 9%, a change that happens overnight, basically, where it was like, well, this was the same, the same, the same. And then all of a sudden it's down to 9%. And when you think about what, what are the long term ramifications in the short term and long term ramifications of not having a bike? It's like, well, on the surface it maybe seems like, well, it's not that big of a deal, but all that freedom that you have. And like you talked about all those interactions that you have with other kids. There's this man named Dr. Peter Gray who talks about free play, kids in free play. And he's older, he's, I think he's in his 80s. And he has studied it, you know, from a biological level and how important it is for kids to have experiences just like what you said. We're off in the woods, we're figuring out how to break each other's arms, we'll come home when it gets dark. Or we kind of know a rough schedule of what my mom expects. And he says that when you talk to people about their favorite childhood experiences, almost exclusively their experiences like that, where there's no adult around.
- [18:35]
B
Yeah, well, and there's something else I read in doing research for this, for this and for columns that I've written about this subject is that when children go out alone and form their own social group outside playing in the woods or whatever, the first thing that they must do that, that happens naturally, that we as humans do, is we figure out who the leader is going to be and who the strongest child will be. The strongest, most assertive child is going to be the leader. And then we all figure out how to kind of fall in behind the leader and yet still express our own personal preference. And so what this is doing is not just teaching us how to, like, you know, follow the leader. It's teaching us how to figure out where we land in the social hierarchy of our, of our world. And you learn how to deal with people, people, communication. You learn how to communicate face to face in a social system. And it has nothing to do with technology or what is said via text. It's all about how do you relate to other human beings. And so this group of children playing in the woods figures out how to self manage, which is amazing because today one of the things you hear, one of the biggest problems with, you know, parents is they're afraid to let their children self manage. They don't know that their children would be able to manage by themselves. Well, when you go out to live on your own and you go into this big world, the lessons you learned when you were playing in the woods, you take with you into independent adulthood. Which is fascinating to me though.
- [20:17]
A
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- [24:14]
B
Wow. Did I say that? Yeah, I do believe that. I believe that. I think in some ways our kids are growing up too fast, and then in other ways our kids aren't growing up enough or fast enough in certain ways of maturity. But I. I do feel that it's our duty to protect childhood. And I feel that we're doing, as a culture, not a great job.
- [24:38]
A
Yeah, I agree.
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B
But I do believe that there's other people out there like you, like yourself, like some other people that. That I know who are. Who are doing their part. And I. And I gotta support you. I support what you do because. Because you're. You're kind of one of the voices crying in the wilderness. There's not a whole lot.
- [25:00]
A
Our kids need it. Our kids need it. And these are beautiful sentences. And isn't it interesting that those. It's those topical threads. They're in both books. So you think I'm going to read this work of fiction. It's just for entertainment. You know, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to read this story. But also. But the fiction's so good for empathy. I love reading both. There was one more sentence. This one's also from the Absolute Worst Christmas of All Time. I love. Which is such a great title. I love to watch children play. Children still believe they have a million years left to live. If only that were true. Okay, so this main character. So you're talking about the phones, talking about childhood. One of this main characters, her Name's Caroline, she's 17. She doesn't have this iPhone yet. And I didn't know if you did this on purpose, but she likes to read.
- [25:43]
B
Yeah.
- [25:43]
A
So she's always got her nose in a book. So that is the counterpart, I think, of always having your nose in a phone.
- [25:49]
B
Yes. Well, see, growing up, for me, I. You know, not having a phone, I love to read. I. Reading was what. It ended up giving me a career, you know, Reading was. Yeah, was escape. Reading was. Is kind of. Once you're a good enough reader, it's a passive form of entertainment. Kind of like television. You just lay back and you don't have to work. You just. It's happening to you. It's much like scrolling, you know, on the phone, in a way. You're just using Your eyes to, to scroll instead of your finger. And so I loved reading. I loved reading. And as we get older and the phones have crept in, I read that that the average adult who would sit down and be able to read chapter after chapter for maybe an hour and a half or two hours.
- [26:36]
A
Yeah.
- [26:36]
B
Is now unable to read for about 10 minutes. And you see this in, in the publishing industry, which is the industry that I happen to, you know, kind of be familiar with. I'm sure you see it in other industries, but in the publishing industry particularly you see this because now books, if you notice the books in the last 15 years, the chapters have become much, much, much shorter. And if you go back to older books, even if you just go back 30 years, you will notice that chapters are much longer than 2,000 words. You're looking at chapters sometimes with 5, 6,000 words, 8,000 words old literature. When they really read. And that was all they had. Like, like I'm talking old maybe like to the 19, early 1900s. You've got chapters that are like a third of a book. But we are now in a, in a generation where our chapters are sometimes 600 to a thousand, to maybe max 2000 words. It's amazing. Some people break those rules. And I'm proud, proud form. But the truth is our attention span has gotten so, so in my. I'm. Mine too has gotten so small that we, we will read for a short amount. We'll get up, move around, check the phone, get something, whatever, sit back down and read. So I don't know where I was going with this.
- [27:59]
A
Well, we were talking about reading and how as a kid you were reading a lot and everybody's attention spans have changed. It is interesting. I had read recently that like you're talking about after dinner, people would sit around and someone would read for hours and they had the attention span to stick with it. It's interesting. I don't know if you did this on purpose. This just came to me right now, but you've got this goldfish or you know, this fish, I guess, right. That goes through the whole book. Gary. And we have a cat named Gary, which is such a funny, it's such a funny pet name. Anyway. And I love the Gary thread in the book, but now they say that the fish have a longer attention span.
- [28:36]
B
Wow.
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A
I have heard that.
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B
I know, but I don't doubt it.
- [28:40]
A
Yeah, it's something like a fish has an 8 second attention span now a human has a 7 second or something like that.
- [28:46]
B
I definitely know through when I gave up the phone that the attention span is not. And I don't know how this translates to attention deficit disorder, because I'm. No, I can't pretend to be any sort of authority, but I know that mine improved. My attention span improved immensely. So no longer would I sit down to read. And I. I don't have a long reading attention span anymore. I mean, I used to sit down and read for hours, and now I get, you know, maybe 15 minutes, and I kind of got to get up and move and. But when I had no phone to. To distract me or even just the idea of the phone, I was able to read for an hour at a time and not. Not even think about it. And I was much more tranquil. And it was a. I. It. At least as it pertains to me, my attention span is more of a skill. It's not necessarily a. An inherited instinct. It is a skill that you develop. And if you've developed your ability to focus, it amazes me at what other good things that can bring about in your life. If you can focus on one thing, you can accomplish so many different things that you. That you set your mind to. And I think I've lost some of that with the. With this new era, because I don't have that kind of sustained focus anymore. I watch my wife try to clean the house. It's hysterical. She'll open up one cabinet, and she'll get the business, and then she'll move across to the other side of the room and she'll do something else, and then she'll go across the house to another side. And what. By the time I kind of come back and check on her, the whole house is torn apart, and she's sitting on the floor playing Scrabble with her phone. And I'm like. I say, jamie, what are you doing? She says, help me.
- [30:33]
A
Oh, it's gotten all of us. And you had this little. This little statement in here where you're like, the lizard brain is like, check the phone. Check the phone. You know, it's. It's like. It's right here. You become so accustomed to switching between tasks during normal activities because your lizard brain says to you out of the blue sky, you need to check your phone. You need to check your phone. You know, it just. It's just there. So it's just interesting commentary. And one of the things that really helps to lessen screen time is reading. It helps quite a bit. And we actually have had a lot of podcasts about the power of reading and how important it is for Kids and for empathy and for adults as well. And it does. It just, like, lessens your screen time. Just like going outside lessens your screen time. Let's say one more about childhood. I thought this was interesting that you threw it in here. So part of the plot is that this character Caroline, who's 17, she needs to be able to read cursive, and she can't.
- [31:27]
B
Yeah.
- [31:27]
A
So you threw cursive in there, which is another big change.
- [31:30]
B
Oh, man. I. So it was, I guess, last month. I. I'm not a minister, but I'm ordained through the state of Alabama to do weddings for friend. Like, a few friends that I've done, which is a joke because I think they're the same organization that ordained Bob Newhart or, you know, something ridiculous. This is not. So as I'm preparing for this wedding, it's for my friend. Two friends. I'm writing down my speech beforehand for, like, dearly beloved, we're all gathered here. That kind of thing.
- [32:06]
A
Yeah.
- [32:06]
B
And I haven't sat down and written longhand in many years along, like, multiple pages. It's been a long time, I'm embarrassed to say. And so I was writing this, and as I was writing, I thought, this is so fun. Like, enjoy watching my hand do this, write this cursive. And I. I forget that I know how to do this. I forget that I spent the majority of my formative years learning to do this. One skill. They drilled it into our heads. Penmanship. Penmanship. Penmanship. Writing. Right. We wrote so much in school that I still. I'll have. I'll forever have my writer on my middle finger. It'll be there forever. Even though I don't use a pencil often anymore, It's. It's permanently there on this finger. And I just find it so amazing that I spent so long learning to do something and yet don't use it quite that often. So anyway, I wrote. I think it was four pages of a speech to give before the wedding. And I had so much fun exercising my penmanship and writing out a. A paper and ink speech. It was so fun that I told myself, I'm gonna do this more often just. Just because it's an old. It's. It's. This is a dying craft. I think I read that 23 states are now teaching cursive again, which is huge if that's true, because at one time there were only two or three teaching cursive.
- [33:38]
A
Unbelievable.
- [33:38]
B
Now they're. Now people are actually fighting back and asking for cursive to be taught because you know, a lot of people, I don't. A lot of kids don't under. Didn't seem to understand because I talked to a lot of kids, wanted to do our shows. They don't understand that cursive is actually supposed. And the reason it was developed is because it's easier than writing. Print it. You don't lift your pen off the page. You can go fast. You can. So what you're learning is not something hard and difficult and archaic. You're learning something that's supposed to be much, much simpler once you get it.
- [34:12]
A
And it's beautiful. To your point, you know, it's like. And it is. I mean, I use cursive every single time I do podcasts because I'm, to your point, writing fast, putting a little bit of notes down. It's something that I use for my work. So what an interesting thing that they don't teach it at all. I mean, tons of people use it. You're taking quick notes, you know, you need to jot something down, and it just looks pretty. So I thought that was interesting.
- [34:35]
B
As a writer, you'd think I'd use it more, but I. I use my. My computer and. And I'll tell you another thing as a writer, writing longhand. Any writer will tell you this. Writing longhand or using a typewriter is a completely different mind process than writing on a computer because you have no opportunity to backspace or delete or copy and paste. And so you and me could probably. I can definitely do this, but I would think anybody can kind of do this. If you pay attention to the signals when you read books, old books especially, you can tell they weren't written on a computer. And you can. And if you read enough of those old books, by the time you get to modern books, you will be able to spot which books were written on a computer and which were written longhand. Because here's how you do it. When you write longhand, if you make a mistake or you kind of go into some area, writing about something you don't. You didn't really plan on doing, you can't go backspace. And very few people will just cross out whole paragraphs. So they'll continue the thought, and they'll find a way to bring that thought to a finish in an end. And sometimes that's where the best gems come from. They'll. They'll continue this thought all the way for a few paragraphs, and they will continue this stream of consciousness flow of writing that does not stop. Whereas when you use a computer you are constantly self editing as you work. Oh no, I think I don't want to. So backspace. Backspace. And by the time you read the finished work on a computer, it's got a very jaunty disjunct, kind of jarring. Thought to thought to thought to thought. Whereas when you read handwritten or typewriter written, it's a flow. It's very interesting to me nerding out here.
- [36:26]
A
I know, but that is really interesting. It's so interesting how the medium. Because people would think, well, you're just. You're still writing.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah.
- [36:34]
A
But how the medium changes so much. I had read about CS Lewis that he didn't even like the typewriter.
- [36:41]
B
Yeah.
- [36:41]
A
Because he didn't like the noise. And you think about how those changes start to happen and you're like, it actually affects the work.
- [36:48]
B
Yes.
- [36:49]
A
You said you can even tell people should teach your kids cursive.
- [36:52]
B
Absolutely.
- [36:53]
A
If your school isn't doing it, just get some workbooks. It's so easy to find the workbooks. Carolyn was a Gen Z kid belonging to that curious and unfortunate group that was prohibited from learning cursive in school, but was given detailed lessons on proper care and maintenance of their iPad. The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy.
- [37:21]
B
To assemble pre lit trees so you.
- [37:23]
A
You can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices. This holiday season at the Home Depot. Get 40% off Abercrombie kids sweatshirts and sweatpants during their coziest sale ever when sweats are all they want to wear. Stock up on sets that are both comfy and on trend. Shop in the Abercrombie Kids app online and in stores to save up to 40% off all sweatshirts and sweatpants offer valid in stores and online October 8, 2025 to October 13, 2025 in US and Canada. Excludes clearance Online price reflects discount. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com There we go. Okay. That's what I'm saying. You think, how could you ever interview someone about a story that they wrote? But you're like, no, oh, guess what? I think I know what John thinks.
- [38:51]
B
Well, you know, it's funny. There's a phrase in. In writing circles that says, if you want to read the truth, read fiction. If you want to read lies, read nonfiction. Because when people write nonfiction, a lot of times they have to bend the story to fit what they want to say. Whereas, I mean, so if they're telling a life story event, they have to make it so they have to. And then. Then that there's that need to embellish that comes out. But in fiction, you can say whatever you want. And so you end up telling more truth in fiction than you do sometimes in non fiction because you have. You have a mask to hide behind. You know, this isn't me. This is another person, you know, so you can write.
- [39:36]
A
Yeah. It's so true because you're. You're like, well, this. What does Sean think about this? But you can tell, like, definitely with the phones, you're like, this came up enough.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:44]
A
I would venture to say, you know, so you have all these different themes that. That go through a fiction book like this. Okay, let me ask you some shorter ones. That was kind of deep. Here's some shorter ones. Do you like Buc EE's?
- [39:55]
B
Do I like Bucky's? Yeah, Bucky's. I like it. I don't know that I could. I could take it for more than one day every year, but I do. I do like it. It's. It's a. It's a immersion experience.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah, I like Bucky's too.
- [40:10]
B
I was.
- [40:11]
A
This is the first fiction book I've ever read that Buc EE's comes up. It says, try the fudge. It will change your life.
- [40:16]
B
The first time I went to a Buc EE's, it was like going to Disney World and only with. With my people. With, like, people who remind me of me, you know? And I had a ball. And then when I left, we. I got in the car and Tim was like, how are you doing? I was like, I'm tired. I said, I. I don't. I don't think I want to come here for a little while. I need a break. Because that was like. That was like. I stood in line at the cashier station. I felt like I was getting ready to ride the teacups. It was.
- [40:45]
A
I love that they have such good billboards. It will be like Buc ee's.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah.
- [40:48]
A
896 miles. Get ready. So you travel a lot for work, do you? Are you excited when there's one on your route?
- [40:58]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. We. We stop at them. We. We. They're great. It's. It's. It's a genius. It's a genius kind of a place. I think. Genius. And I. I think what somebody told me, which was interesting. It was. He was an older guy who told me this. He said, you know why they're building them like this, don't you? And I. This is probably not true. And I said, no, why? He said, because when the electric cars take over the world, they're going to need a place to hang out for long periods of time while their cars charge. He said, so gas stations are getting bigger and bigger so that you can time at these gas stations. Why your car charges? I thought. Just stop talking. You're making me sad.
- [41:36]
A
Oh, that's interesting. Well, my dad has one. And we went on a trip with my dad. We met up in West Virginia. We went whitewater rafting and my dad drove separate. And that was part of the thing. Like, we think we'll be there at 5. And he's like, well, if I factor in my charging time, because he would have to stop for about 30 minutes and charge. I mean, I could hang out in Buc EE's for 30 minutes.
- [41:57]
B
Oh, no problem. Yeah, yeah.
- [41:58]
A
We. When we go, I'm like, whose birthdays are coming up? Like. Like, I'll stock up on all the gifts for everyone that I know. Like, this person's. That thing we got, like the big inner tube. And then you can go down the. You go down the river with your big Bucky's tube.
- [42:12]
B
I love it. Well, last time I went, people get so into it. There were like five young men who were dressed in beaver costumes. They. This was their first time either going to a Buc EE's or first time going to that Buc EE's. But they were all in, and it was awesome. I got my picture with them. I said, you guys are. You guys are pure joy. I mean, they went through the store like they were the mayor of BUC EE's. It was awesome.
- [42:35]
A
I've been there when there's been wedding parties that have come through, you know, homecoming. People are pulling up in a limo, like a limo party party bus type thing. And then they come with all their fancy clothes. So, you know, you got to take the good with the bad, right? You're like, okay, this is the day. And Age of these darn cell phones, but it is also the day and age of Bucky. So that's the first book I've. First and only book I've ever read that has Bucky's in it. Okay, you talk about being a redhead. What colors can a redhead wear?
- [43:02]
B
Oh, well, my mother has a list that's. That's ironclad. And so I grew up with this list. You can wear white. You can wear green. You can wear blue. You cannot wear purple. You could not. And which I. Which is debatable. I've seen a lot of people. Redheads wear purple. But, I mean, Daphne on Scooby Doo wore purple. I mean, believe me, I've got the list in my head. But she said, you're not wear purple. You could not wear orange. You could not wear any co. Any shade of red. You can wear yellow. It's kind of on the fence, but you can wear yellow. Certain shades of yellow. Pink works. But boys don't always wear pink, so at least when I was growing up, they didn't. And then they started to. So that was weird. You. You shouldn't wear an excess of brown. You can wear black. These. These are my mother's rules, by the way. Don't. Don't hate the messenger. What color am I leaving out? Gray works. Gray works. Really? You stay away from the warm colors. She. My mother. My mother would say, that's in the book.
- [44:07]
A
You have this line. There is nothing so remarkable as a shock of red hair on a baby's head. And I thought, that is kind of true. I don't know if I've ever seen a redheaded baby. Like a baby baby.
- [44:18]
B
My mother. There's pictures of me when I was born, and my hair is. It looks like. It looks like it's the color of a brand new penny. It's just a. It is. It is so copper red. It shines. And it looks almost bizarre. I said, mom, I was. That's. I was an ugly baby. I mean, she said, well, you were special. You know, you were. But I used to go to the grocery store with my mother, and I was a real, real fat baby. Chubby for. And that lasted until I was 16, really. And she'd behold me in her arms, and someone would come up and they'd fuzz my hair and they'd rub my hair for good luck. Because, like, you know, back then, you rub a redhead's hair for good luck.
- [45:02]
A
So isn't it interesting how these small things become such a deep part of your life experience? And I do. See, it's only been a couple times that I've gotten to talk to fiction authors. 3. There's three fiction authors that I've talked to. And I talked to this one man, and in his book, his character didn't like mayonnaise. And I was like, I mean, really didn't like mayonnaise. It came up a lot of times. I was like, I bet this man does not like mayonnaise. So I asked him, he was like, I think mayonnaise is disgusting. So, you know, you just. You have these experiences, like, you know, you. It's just how you're born. You've got this red hair and you're like, this is actually a big part of who I am. Like, I'm not going to buy a purple shirt, you know, or, you know, you have all these different.
- [45:44]
B
A form of purple, if you'll notice right now. There you go there against the world protest. The thing is, when you're writing fiction, it's kind of like psychologists say, when you dream, you are all the characters in your dream, because who else could they be? You really. It's really. They're all just a version of you. Well, when you write a book, every character is you in some way. The good and the bad characters, too. I mean, it's all coming out of you. And you grow so attached to these characters. You put so much of yourself into them that when the book is over, you're kind of sad because you loved them. You spent every day with them for hours and hours and hours. You spent these days with these characters in your mind, even though they're on your mind, when. When you're done, they're gone. And you can no longer talk to them. You can no longer put them in a situation, see how they'll react and see what they'll do. You're. You miss them, actually.
- [46:41]
A
Wow. It's very final. And like you said, they're part of you. You. You know, you see yourself in the views that you have woven through these different characters. This book has got funny lines in it, just like all the other ones. They come out of the blue. It's always the trickiest part about talking about fiction is like, you don't want to give anything away. But this one, just like all of your other books, where you just like that kind of shock factor that's really funny and you're not expecting it, is also in this book. Probably one of my favorite lines is when it says it sounded like the plot of a truly poorly written novel. It's so great. All right, so people are reading that you're going to find that that kind of comes toward the end and I can't give away any of the other ones, but like, just here and there it pops out and you're like, I wasn't expecting that. I learned a brand new word, Thanatosis.
- [47:29]
B
Oh yeah, so did I. Yeah.
- [47:32]
A
So you didn't know that one. I mean, that's the other interesting thing about fiction is people do research.
- [47:38]
B
Yes, yes. It's. You wouldn't believe how much little research goes into just little things that, that will only occupy one or two sentences, maybe not even that. And you have to do like a few hours just to get to the bottom of how to say it in a simple way or, or a way that that is relevant instead of info dumping. You know what I mean?
- [48:00]
A
Yeah.
- [48:00]
B
And it's actually, to me, that's actually one of the really fun parts of writing is I get to learn so much. And as I, as a dropout, as somebody who, who left school early and had to come back later in life, one of the things I was most self conscious about was, you know, learning. I didn't know anything and I still don't know. There's so many gaps in my knowledge compared to what, you know, normally normal people have. And so for me, it's so fun to write a book where I get to do research because I get to learn new things and I get to. Every time I do learn something new, my brain goes. Yeah. I mean, it feels, it's a good feeling. It's, it's, it's fun to feel like you're learning.
- [48:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. And, and then you learn when you read it. Thanatosis is playing dead.
- [48:47]
B
Yep. Right.
- [48:48]
A
And a lot of animals use it.
- [48:50]
B
Yes, yes. And I loved learning that actually, because it's actually a pretty con, you know, a pretty normal reaction if you think. There's actually several people who've been in like New York City, this has been like documented and they knew they were going to get mugged and they, some of them have played dead like fake to heart attack or whatever. And it's worked and other people have played and I can't remember what this is called. This is called acting. When you act insane, we have a human instinct where we won't kill or harm something that is insane. We'll just back away like human beings, aggressive human beings. So what they will do, these people will act insane. One lady, this is crazy, started disrobing in the middle of New York City when she Was going to be mugged and who knows, harmed. She started screaming, acting totally insane, and she started taking off her clothes and running around in circles. And her attackers backed off and left her alone. And she was fine because we won't, we have this innate primal thing where we won't harm a crazy thing because you, they're unpredictable. You don't know what they could do to you. So anyway.
- [50:01]
A
Well, that's actually really interesting to know.
- [50:04]
B
Yeah, I learned that, I learned that somewhere along my way.
- [50:09]
A
Thanatosis I was, yeah, it's a great strategy. I never knew that there was a word for it. So all these things that you learn just through reading a story. Okay, so one of the things you touch on a lot is religion. Like religious people.
- [50:25]
B
Yeah.
- [50:25]
A
And you know, you have this theme here and there about the Baptists who don't, you know, they're not going to drink together, but they're, they're drinking by themselves. And you've got, you know, the ones who go to church and they're fostering all these kids, but behind closed doors they're abusive. You know, they're leaders here and leaders there. And I like that you touch on that because I think that's a common thought or a common experience that a lot of people have. And hypocrisy can be pretty hard to deal with. And so you talk in this one about this main character, you know, she says she's had these hard things and how could there be a God? And you say, I don't care if you believe in God. Your biology believes and that's all that matters. Another sentence. You are the greatest expression of God's artwork. We're heading into the holidays. What do you want to say?
- [51:17]
B
I think, I think we were put here to be. I think the problem was religion. Religion in used in the way of, of a. Not of a not positive term. Religion like as in religious people or pious piety maybe would be a better way or self righteous people. I think the problem with religion is that it goes so far in trying to deny our humanness. And I think we were put here to be fully human and to learn through that humanness. And I just think the, the killer, the number one killer of hypocrisy is to admit and embrace that you are fully human. And I think once you do that, once you admit, once you totally lock in and say I am fully human, then you see the beauty of God. Because God work with that. Because God made you that way. He made you fully human. And I think then the Lessons can be learned, and then the wonderful beauty can start once you acknowledge what you are. And so, anyway, in the holidays, if I had a message at all to share with people, it's acknowledge what you are in the beauty of what a human being you are, but also acknowledge that in other people. And maybe that. Maybe that could eliminate just a little hypocrisy.
- [52:47]
A
I'm going to read this little section from the absolute worst Christmas of all time. That's what I'm saying. These themes go through all the books. And that would make sense because all the books are written by you. You're talking about this one. It's. It's one of the short ones. It's a. Dear God. I'm just going to read a short bit of it. Dear God, my mother called you the Lord. My granny called you Heavenly Father. My uncle used to call you the Big Guy. And then you go on and you say, even though I don't know a lot about you, I know a little. I know that you're the sun, you're the pine trees, you're the sky over Lake Martin, the smell of baked apples mother used to cook, and prettiness. You're the look on a kid's face when he or she catches a fish. You are every blessed Andy Griffith show episode ever made. You are Aunt Bee, Opie, Barney Otis. Oh, that's your new dog's name?
- [53:32]
B
Yeah.
- [53:33]
A
Is that what it comes from?
- [53:35]
B
Oh, yeah. Yes, definitely.
- [53:37]
A
Oh, you had absolutely nothing to do with Matlock. You are guitar music. My uncle used to pick your popping noises from hickory logs in a fireplace. Your salted butter, roasted pecans, bottled Coca Cola, and loyalty from a friend. And it's just such beautiful writing. You talk about the big things, you've done things. So this is. Dear God, you've done things. And I'm not talking about big things. Everybody knows you make the earth spin and stars twinkle. No, I'm talking about tiny things you've done. Like how you managed to let me find a wood figurine my grandfather carved. It's a buffalo, and it's almost 100 years old. I found it in an old packed box.
- [54:17]
B
Yeah, I still have. I can lay eyes on it right now. It's in my office.
- [54:23]
A
It's just so deep. It's so deep. I love one of the stories in here where you go, you get up to sing, and you're so nervous. You're so nervous. And you always joke around about. Like you said, you had this chubby face till you're 16. You know, you're like, I had a. I had a chubby face and a stunning personality. But you have this story in here, this soloist story, and here you are just out still doing music, and you. You're singing at church, just like I said. A lot of these themes, they run through. Because you talk about in Over Yonder, how in the end, it all comes down to people. And so you're gonna go. You're singing at this thing, and you're nervous. You're like, you know, am I. Am I even gonna make it. Make it here? And your dad compliments you.
- [55:08]
B
Oh, yes. Yeah, that was. He was extremely supportive of my music. And even. I mean, he wanted it. He wanted music for me. And I. I, at the time, of course, I loved music. But now I look back and I see that you really can't grow up to be something like that unless it's fostered at a young age and supported by the adults in your life. And it was all the adults in my life who. Who supported it and said, yes, you are. You're a musician, Sean, and all that. And I look back and I see that it was a lot of that from him, coming from him, that set me on my path. And even he died when I was 11. But even that influence he had until I was 11 years old set me on a life path. You can do so much with a child if. If. If you try.
- [56:02]
A
Wow. In the end, it came down to people. That's what you say in Over Yonder. I'm gonna just read a quick clip, too. So once again, I feel like this is your book pairing. Heading off to the Thanksgiving table. Take them together. So you're gonna sing. You're the soloist. I was a chubby kid with awkward features. I was neither handsome nor athletic, but now I was a soloist. So you know you're about to sing and you say, I choked. I missed my cue. Maybe it's the large audience, you know, the choir. I open my mouth, nothing comes out. The music came to a screeching halt. The choir director almost passed a kidney stone. Everyone knew something was wrong. The silence of the hall was deafening. This is how I would die, I thought. On a stage, wearing a starched robe. Then I saw him. He was in the back of the room, a mile away. The sooty man sitting in a pew, surrounded by people in fancy clothes. People had scooted away from him. And then you talk about how there's just this. This encouragement. You say, the look he wore was pride. His boy was on the platform. Suddenly I was less Worried, I forgot where I was. The audience disappeared. The next thing I knew, I was singing. By the second verse, every voice in the audience had joined me. Hundreds of voices following mine. From the back of the chapel, candles were being lit one by one. And then you say at the very end, he took you to town. You got a chili dog. Yeah, we stayed up late. We laughed together. He couldn't say much, but he managed to say, that's my boy. Then he said it again. That was our last Christmas together. If you get a chance today, tell your kids how proud they make you.
- [57:36]
B
Yeah, that was a special memory. What was really special about that? Not just him, but it was how people. When I couldn't sing, and this has happened more than once in my life because I've sang in many different large settings. When you're overcome by something and you can't sing, other people will sing for you. They will begin to sing for you. It's happened to me at funerals. It's happened to me at special events. When I was young. If you. If you screw up or if you don't make it, other people will immediately jump in and they will make. They will get you through that song. And that right there is what it means to be human as life. People will do that in life just as well as they will in music.
- [58:26]
A
And it's just a reminder about the people. You say I wish so many times, actually, throughout the book, because it's all this one is all these shorter stories. And you say, you know, in one, I wish I could see him again. I wish I could spend a holiday with him. I'm thinking about all the wonderful things my father never experienced, like all the things my wife and I have done these last years, all the places you've gone. My father hasn't been here to see any of it. No matter how old I get, I wish I could share this life with him. Merry Christmas to the hurting For God himself is here with you. The themes of your book are so deep, and I. And I love how. And I haven't read all of them. I've read a lot of them about how these themes just come up and you really get to know Sean. If you stop and think about it, you really get to know John Diedrich through these books. And people can check out your writing online. It's phenomenal writing. Your story is phenomenal. Dropped out of school in the seventh grade, and here you are with so many books. So many books. When you open the COVID of the new ones, you know, it always lists the Old ones. You're like, oh, my gosh, this was so long, so huge. Congrats to you. Is it. Do you feel pressure to write another one? Like, is there one stirring?
- [59:33]
B
I. There is. I do want to write one about my wife. And I took 40 days and we walked it through Spain. We walked the Camino de Santiago. We walked from France all the way to Spain. And it was. It was an incredibly transformative experience, perhaps maybe the most of my life, the most transforming of my life. It was incredible, and I have a lot to say about it. And I wrote. I wrote every day while I was out there on the trail, and people were following with me from all over the world. And so people on the trail. I would run into people on the trail, and everybody on the trail is from some other country. They all knew my name. They all had been reading it. They. We were. I was like one of them. And. And they were. They were so good to us. And anyway, I have so much I want to say about it. I have so much I want to say, but at the same time, I'm almost intimidated by it because I've never had such a wealth of. Of experiences to try to cram into a small book. So. But that's the one. That's the next one on my list, and I don't know how that's the first one I've ever set out to write that. I don't know how I'm going to attack it. I don't know how I'm gonna attack it.
- [60:46]
A
I always wonder that, like, you know, at some point you'd think you would run out of ideas, you know, but no, there's an endless.
- [60:51]
B
It's true.
- [60:52]
A
There's always something next.
- [60:54]
B
They're not always good ideas, but they're like something.
- [60:57]
A
The book is called Over Yonder. It is fantastic. Sean of the South. If you have not read any Sean Diedrich books, you are missing out on life. They are phenomenal. They are funny. They're. They're like, witty, you know, they're funny and witty. Witty is like that smart humor. We're, like, not expecting it. Like, oh, it's so good. Like, there's one. There's one I can't get. I'm not giving it away, but, like, the question where they. And I don't even know if. How much you remember everything that you wrote, because I know these come out, you know, like, books come out way later after they've all gotten edited. But where they say, where did you learn to fight like that? Do you know what sentence I'm talking about?
- [61:32]
B
Yeah.
- [61:33]
A
Ask Woody, where did you learn to fight like that?
- [61:36]
B
Yeah.
- [61:36]
A
And then his answer, I'm not. Well, I'm going to sit here, but I'm going to cut it out of the recording. But he says, that's so funny. It's so, so funny. Oh, my goodness. And all your books always have parts like that. So that's on page 140. I'm cutting out what the word is. People can listen to me.
- [61:54]
B
I don't mind.
- [61:56]
A
It's so great. Sean, it's such an honor to know you. It's such an honor. I see your music all the time, and I just think, how cool is it that I know that guy?
- [62:04]
B
You know, I. The same way about you. I hope you know that I. I look forward. This is the only thing I ever do that I. With somebody else like this that I look forward to because you're just so fun. You're so easy. I love. I just love you.
- [62:19]
A
Oh, it's an honor. And I love your books. Huge congratulations. And I hope someday to read the one about the Camino. I think I only learned about that from somebody else. I don't think everybody knows about it. I think a lot of people do, but a lot of people don't. You're one on the. When you did the trail with your wife on the. On the bike, on the trike, that's the first one I read of yours. That was the first book I read of yours. You Are My Sunshine. Is that what it's called?
- [62:45]
B
Yep.
- [62:45]
A
Yeah. You are my Sunshine. And I loved it. So, I mean, if you did some similar memoir, it'd be fantastic. I would love to read that. Thank you for your time and huge congratulations.
- [62:55]
B
Oh, gosh. Thank you, Jenny. This is always just like coming home.