← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 600: Remember How to Live | Catherine Price, The Power of Fun
01:01:44
Loading summary
Transcript89 lines
- [00:04]
Jenny Urich
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I am so excited today because Katherine Price is here. She has written phenomenal books. She has a phenomenal substack. She has another kids book coming out really for teens and tweens. So it's kind of a kids book but you know, like for that age group. And she's got courses. So much to help you have a more fun and less tech filled life. Katherine, welcome.
- [00:54]
Katherine Price
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
- [00:56]
Jenny Urich
So you've got a fantastic books. We got a lot of parents that listen in and these are ones you want to read, that you want to read. You want to read and then help your kids to prepare. Then you've got a book that's coming out for teens and tweens. But the two that I have and you have more than this but are how to break up with your phone, which is a palm sized book that you can drop in your purse and also is laid out. Incredibly cool. It's really going to help you like you want to break up with your phone. You know, you don't want to live like this. And then the power of fun, how to feel alive again. Can you give us a little background, Catherine? I know you've got your fan. Fantastic substack. Is it called how to feel alive again?
- [01:29]
Katherine Price
It. It's called how to feel alive. Not even again. Just straight up. How to feel Alive.
- [01:32]
Jenny Urich
How to feel Alive. Yeah, your sub stack and I'll make sure I'll put the link in the show notes for that. Where'd you get interested in this topic?
- [01:39]
Katherine Price
Well, interestingly, it was actually from the room I'm speaking to you from right now, if I'm taking your question literally. But the, the reason I wrote those two books in particular was that I had my daughter 10 years ago. Before that I was writing mostly about food and nutrition. I wasn't writing about technology and I'd had my daughter and I just started to notice that there'd be nights when I was up with her, late at night actually in this room. And I was looking at my phone while she was looking at me. And I have a background in, you know, mindfulness and try to think of myself as a self aware person. And so I did recognize, oh my goodness, this is not what I want to be doing. You know, here's this little baby looking up at her mother, and here's her mother looking down at her phone. And that's not how I want to live. It's not what I want my daughter to think of, you know, in terms of a human relationship, let alone with me. So that's what inspired me to write how to break up with your Phone. That was back in 2016, I believe is when I started thinking about that project. And I noticed that even though many people weren't talking about it yet, a lot of people were struggling with their phones. We just hadn't started this, this dialogue about it. And more importantly, when I looked to see what books existed on the subject, there were some that talked about screen time, but I couldn't find any that offered a solution. And so I basically wrote the book for myself to find and create a solution and then help other people with their relationships with their phones. And it's not about dumping your phone. It's not about like throwing it under a bus. It's more about creating a healthy relationship with better boundaries. And once I had done that, so I went through the steps and how to break, how to break up with your phone myself. It's a look at the science of what our screen time is doing to us. And then there's a 30 day plan to take back control. So I did that myself. I reclaimed a lot of time for my devices. And then I didn't realize I'd opened up this new problem for myself, which is what I wanted to do with that newfound time. Because suddenly I had more free time and I wasn't spending it on screens. I'm a writer, so I didn't really want to like, read more to be hon. And I had this kind of existential moment where I thought, oh my goodness, I don't know what I want to do to make me feel alive. And long story short, I signed up for a guitar class because I said, you know, I always say I want to learn guitar and I supposedly don't have time, but I actually do have time because I was just wasting it on my phone. And through that guitar class, which was basically a group of adults having, you know, a good time together on Wednesday nights and learning songs just for the fun of it, I ended up getting really curious about the feeling of fun, because I was filled with this buoyant energy in this class that really lifted me up for the whole week. And it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out that the best word to describe it was fun. I think that that was cause of early parenting. You know, it's fun. A little fun starved period of time. But anyway, I got so curious because I was like, what is fun? You know, what is this feeling? It doesn't match what the dictionary says. The dictionary just says it's kind of amusement or enjoyment. But this was really filling me up in a. In a really nourishing way. And I realized there's no good definition of it, and there's not really any scientific research about fun. And so that piqued my curiosity, and I ended up writing the Power of Fun for a similar reason. To help me have more fun. And in so doing, hopefully help other people have more fun and hope, hopefully help other people fully recognize how important fun is and. And absorb the idea that it's not frivolous at all. It's actually essential for a happy and healthy life.
- [04:46]
Jenny Urich
Isn't it incredible? It's like a one, two punch. Like, the books are just so fantastic. They go together. And those are the, like, okay, you're like, all right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have a Sabbath off my phone. You know, you have a free guide for that. You know, it's like how to. How to have a digital Sabbath take 24 hours off. It's going to really change a lot of things for you. And then people are like, not sure what to do.
- [05:05]
Katherine Price
Yeah, it opens up a can of worms.
- [05:07]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, yeah. And you even talked about, like, from. Even back from the 30s, obviously this is. In some ways it's a new problem because the phones are so much more addictive than any technology that has come before. But in other ways, you kept talking about this Bert, Bernard, Bert. Do you know what I'm talking about? There was like, so many quotes from him, and they were from the 1930s.
- [05:28]
Katherine Price
Yes. I think there's your term of the Dutch guy. I'm not going to try to translate. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. Yes.
- [05:35]
Jenny Urich
Okay. So he talks about in 1932, the pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive in the 30s, seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work. But you talk about how even though we're really tired and really drained, and so it seems like something like Going to a guitar class or going to swing less swing dancing lessons, we wouldn't have enough energy for it. What you say is actually it energizes you.
- [06:07]
Katherine Price
Yes, yes.
- [06:08]
Jenny Urich
Can you talk about that? That sort of misconception?
- [06:11]
Katherine Price
Yeah. So it can feel very exhausting to consider doing things out of the house, especially if you've just spent the whole day, you know, doing your adult and then doing family stuff and cleaning up things like that. You can think, how can I possibly ever summon up the energy to get off the couch? And so what do you do? You turn on the TV or you reach for your phone and look at Instagram or, you know, heaven forbid, the news. That's like the least relaxing thing you could possibly do. But a lot of people do that because it's just so easy and it's there. And then we end up feeling kind of drained or lethargic or kind of gross afterwards in a lot of cases. I mean, you know, watching a episode or two of a show is fine, but a lot of times we'll end up, like, binge watching TV or staying up way later than we intended to because we're either watching something or we are looking at our phones. Interestingly, I feel like that rarely happens with books. I mean, sometimes you stay up too late because you're really into it, but they're just. They're not designed the same way. So anyway, it can feel really impossible to summon up the energy to get out of the house. But what I realized is that if you do get over that inertia and you get out of the house and you do something for yourself, for yourself, which we all actually deserve to do, it is energizing. And you will come back feeling more filled up than you did when you left the house. And instead of feeling more exhausted, you're going to feel like you have more energy, both for yourself and for whoever you're living with or caring for, it really fills up your tank. And that was a really important message for me to try to internalize. And I encourage everybody else to think of it as well, because it's just so much easier to not take that step. You have to get over the hurdle of, like, getting out of the house. But once you get a taste of how energizing fun can be, it can really change the way you make decisions about your time. You know, I now try to make a point to say yes to things out of the house, or when I feel that kind of hesitation in myself where it's like, oh, it's been a long Day. I don't really know if I want to do this, to actually say, you know what? You will not regret this, and get out. And I was gonna make an analogy about how it's kind of like exercise, where you're like, oh, I know I should exercise today. I know I'll feel better afterwards. And. But you have to kind of force yourself to do it. But, you know, exercise can be unpleasant in the moment, so there is genuinely, like, a dread there. Fun feels good. So it's kind of like you just need to get over yourself and get over that hump, and then you'll have a good time. There's no moment during fun that's like the, you know, fatigue of exercise or the. Like, you just want to get off the treadmill. No, it's like you don't want it to end. So I just encourage people to. To try to get that initial burst of energy to get off the couch, because you will probably feel better during and afterwards than you will if you stay on the couch and just consume content on your phone.
- [08:49]
Jenny Urich
And what you did. And I think this is such a great modeling, Katherine, is you signed up for stuff. And what's interesting is I actually was interested, Catherine, that there was stuff, because so many things are for kids. And you even talked about it. Like, you go to the place that's got the guitar class, and every pretty. Everything is like, kids, class, kids, class. But they did have an adult class. And then you signed up to learn how to do rowing. And I'm a. You know, and you're like everyone else. They learned when they were a kid or, like, in the. Into their teens, you know, 21 at the latest, is when they learned how to row. But you found someone to do it with you, and, you know, and you end up in the water and. But you're seeing the turtles. You know, it's like an incredible experience. So it was a reminder to me to look around a little bit more, to look harder, because we tend to think, well, gosh, everything's going to be for kids. And you wrote this for guitar class. Every time I went every time, Catherine. I mean, this is a big statement. I came home feeling rejuvenated and refreshed. Wednesday nights quickly became a highlight of my week. Even more intriguingly, the class infused me with an exuberance that buoyed me for days. That's what we need for days. I was more playful around my husband. I was more present with our daughter. I felt less resentful of my obligations and less burdened of My to dos, it was a new hobby and. But it was also a new source of energy. Something inside of me had been ignited that I hadn't even realized had gone dark. The more of this energy I experienced, the more ravenous for it I became. So you can look at your story, which you talk about how when you were younger, pre phone, you were adventuring, you biked across the entire country.
- [10:29]
Katherine Price
I hit a lot.
- [10:31]
Jenny Urich
I've hardly heard of that. You're like, I'm looking up ahead and there's the Rocky Mountains, and I'm going to have to go over on my bike. You know, so this is part of your life. And then it's. It's just so easy for it to kind of slip away because of the technology. And so when you brought it back, it's just a reminder for us to look around and see what's out there, because you are. You found a lot of incredibly cool things to do. You give a lot of ideas for people to find those ideas and then just to go do them. But you were signed up for something, so you're kind of expected to show up. And yeah, I think that that helps. You're expected to show up with the guy who's going to help you with the rowing.
- [11:08]
Katherine Price
It's. It's very true. I actually think that's a really important point because I'm sure a lot of people have felt frustrations about trying to get together with friends and you know that you actually do want to see each other. This is, of course, the coffee dates. You're like, we should get together. We. Oh, we totally shouldn't. You actually don't really want to. But there's also people you genuinely really want to be in better touch with or you want to see or you want to get something on the calendar with. And it's like, oh, my God, let's do that. And then you open up your calendars and it's like, how about these dates? And then you can't do that. And it's like, how about next month? And then it's like, oh, maybe. And then it's like, maybe you get a date like a month and half out. And then, you know, two days beforehand, someone cancels because their kid is sick. It's very difficult. And it's also very difficult to make friends as an adult. So one thing I realized is that if you can find something that is, as you were just saying, scheduled and arranged by somebody else that you just show up for on a regular basis, it eliminates a lot of those Problems. So, yeah, this was a guitar class, as you were alluding to, was at a children's music studio led by a man named Mr. John. And even though it's an adult class, we all still call him Mr. John. But it met every week and it was the same time for years. And so we just showed up. I mean, it was really a similar thing to the idea of like you show up at church or you show up, you know, for your work, like just something that's a regular thing on the schedule. And it really helped because then there was no question of like, are we going to do this? Okay, what time? You know, what day? We didn't do a doodle poll. It just happened. And I think the more we can look for opportunities like that as adults, the better because it is so hard to schedule stuff for ourselves as adults. And anyone who's a parent who's listening knows that as soon as your kids get old enough to do extracurriculars, then finding time for casual get togethers with your friends is nearly impossible. And so I really do recommend that all of us adults, you know, whether or not we're parents, think about our own extracurriculars. Like, what are your extracurriculars? And not the ones that your parents made you sign up for. Not like, you know, competitive swim or whatever, but like, what do you actually want to do and want to carve out time for, for yourself. Because you as a grown up deserve to have fun also.
- [13:14]
Jenny Urich
It's so good. It's so good. It's a great time of year to pick up a book like this because, you know, it's like the year is heading to a close, we're heading into a new one and you can have more fun. You talk about how like, when you had this extra time, you were like, I can't think of anything to do. And then you're like, it's catastrophic thinking. Like, you know, it's just, it's funny. It's bec. You're really honest in it and, and you say you lost test, you had lost touch with what fun feels like. And that a lot of us have. A lot of us just we don't even know. And back to that Bertrand from 1932.
- [13:45]
Katherine Price
Russell. Yes. Now I know. I thought you were talking about Huzinga. I'm not gonna pronounce his name right. There's a Dutch guy from the around that time that I remember doing the audio book and I'm like, oh boy, I gotta figure out how to say this one. But yes, anyway, Go ahead.
- [13:56]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, Bertrand, he said men would not know how to fill their days if they had only four hours of work out of the 24. Insofar as this is true in the modern world, it condemnation of our civilization. So, you know, this is, this is something to think about, which is, what do you want to do? What do you enjoy to do? Everyone should think about that. What is something you've always said you wanted to do but you supposedly don't have time for? And I think you did such a wonderful job of portraying what it could be and reminding people, like, look, it could, it could be as simple as getting in a rope. Getting in. It's not a rowboat, but getting in.
- [14:31]
Katherine Price
This skull, I guess it's called a horribly skinny boat that tips over if you're not in constant motion, which kind of feels like a metaphor for adult life. Like pause for a second, the whole thing tips over. You end up in a river, a dirty, dirty river.
- [14:46]
Jenny Urich
And you went and did it. You went and you ended up in the river. And. And you're like, this is fun. I'm having fun. So I think it's not just a book that's like, you should do this or you should do that. You say, I did it. Here's what it was like. And it gets your mind spinning as a reader of, well, what would that look like in my life if I tried to do something similar? You know, healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support. And sometimes it even takes a puppy. Capstone Wellness is unlike anything I've ever seen. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families by combining faith, clinical excellence, and some truly creative approaches to healing. At Capstone Treatment center, teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health or addiction are given something extraordinary, a Labrador retriever puppy. On admission. That puppy stays with them through the program and goes home with them when they graduate. It's not just a dog, it's a partner in responsibility, in attachment, and in bringing families back together. And if residential care isn't what you're looking for, vine and Roots intensives offer individuals, couples and families months of world class counseling packed into just a few concentrated days. It's designed to trace hurt back to the roots and begin real healing. Healing is possible. Start your journey today@capstonewellness.com 1000 hours. That's capstonewellness.com 1000hours. You know that moment when your kids walk in the door from playing outside and they're acting like they haven't eaten in three days? Each One wants something different and you're standing there thinking, do I look like a short order cook? Yeah. That was my life until I found Nurture Life. This podcast is sponsored by nurture life. It's 2025, but are you still feeding your kids like it's 2005? Nature Life is a meal delivery service that makes fresh, fully cooked meals and snacks your kids actually want to eat. We're talking nutritious, balanced meals for kids ages 10 months to 10 years old. Ready in just a minute. What I love is that Nurture Life manages to sneak in the veggies while still serving all the classics, Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, even finger foods for toddlers. Here's how it works. You pick from over 50 meals and snacks. Nurture Life cooks them fresh every week and they show up right at your door in refrigerated packaging. It's allergy friendly, dietitian designed and genuinely delicious. My kids adore it and I love that the stress of Mealtime has disappeared. Head to NurtureLife.com 1000hours55 and use code 1000hours55 for 55 off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 55 off plus free shipping. Once again, that's NurtureLife.com1000hours55 and make sure you use my promo code 1000hours55. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our code so our show gets the credit. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. You know what I love about this time of year? The air gets crisp, the days feel cozier, and suddenly I realize, oh, right, the entire family is coming over. Hosting is such a joy, but it can also feel like a marathon if your home isn't quite ready. This year, I got ahead of it all with Wayfair, and honestly, I don't know why I waited so long. I found the cutest light fixture, some wreaths, and a new comforter set for our guest room for when our son's friend came and stayed with us for a week. And that made it feel like a little bed and breakfast. Everything came fast, shipping was free, and it all looked even better in person. Wayfair really has everything you need to make your home holiday ready, like Christmas trees, cookware, throw blankets, twinkle lights, even those little touches that make your guests say wow. Whether you're hosting family dinners, cozy movie nights, or welcoming guests from out of town, Wayfair makes it easy to make Your space shine without blowing the budget. So don't wait until the week before Christmas. Start now. Enjoy the process and make your home a place you can truly settle into this season. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Obviously one of the biggest hurdles is that people say they're too busy and you talk about in depth. And I think this is really important because it explains what's going on. The time value paradox. We have been conditioned to believe that our time is too valuable to waste. And yet we often are spending our time on things that make us feel like we've wasted our time. But this is in some ways hearkening back to hourly wages. Can you talk about how that is affecting? Just, it's like the hustle culture and performance. And so we just. This is not top of mind. And in fact almost might feel like the wrong thing to do to have fun.
- [19:20]
Katherine Price
Yeah. So I had read a book that's called I always get it confused. I think it's Do Nothing. There's also one that's like the Art of Doing Nothing by Celeste.
- [19:29]
Jenny Urich
I've read that one.
- [19:30]
Katherine Price
Celeste Hadley. Yes, yes, yes. And she was talking about just how we've changed our thoughts about time over the years, over humanity. And one of the points that stood out to me was that she was talking about how before we had such a thing as hourly wages, you know, how we thought about time and how we thought about work. And she was pointing out that a lot of the work then was more project based. So it's like you harvested the crops. And how do you know when you're done harvesting the crops? Well, there's no more crops to harvest. You know, you'd hire someone to fix your shoe and they would take the shoe and they'd fix it. And when they fixed the shoe, that was the end of the project. It wasn't tied to time necessarily. And there was not this kind of in general adhere like adhesion to the concept of time like we do now, because it was more just get your work done and then you relax. And there was not a sense that if you kept working more that you'd make more money. So it was kind of like, okay, I'm finished and now, you know, the harvest is done. We're gonna have a celebration because we're done with the work. There was a concept that work could be done and she points out that as the Industrial revolution came along and as factory jobs became a thing, you started to separate. Well, you started to not have the project base, so much approach to time, but rather you had the idea that you do one job repetitively. You know, kind of the factory line idea. Like you do the same job over and over and over again and you get paid for how long you spent doing that job. So suddenly time and money became really intertwined where if you wanted to make more money, you just keep working forever. And the more you work, the more money you would make. Because now essentially time became money. And that has really, really affected us and I think made it very difficult for us to ever take a break because we have this mentality that time is money. And so if you quote, unquote, waste time, you're throwing away money. But we define wasting time as not working, right? So we're like, oh, we can't possibly go take that rowing lesson, or I can't possibly go take that guitar class or get together with friends and just spend the afternoon watching a movie together and relaxing or whatever it may be, because that might be a waste of time. But then what I was getting at with that time value paradox is then ironically, we get so burned out from working so much that when we do have some leisure time, which by the way is supposedly part of the reason we're working so hard, right, is so that we can then relax. Then instead of doing anything that would truly nourish us, we end up wasting that time by doing things like scrolling through TikTok videos. So anyway, I was just fascinated by the idea that we have started. We for a long time have equated time with money. And so any use of time that doesn't result in money, we classify as a, quote, waste of time. But then ironically, we end up wasting the time that we have earned by doing meaningless stuff that empties us or stresses us out, like doom scrolling, rather than the things that would actually fill us up.
- [22:15]
Jenny Urich
You got a quote from Celeste in here that says, when time is money, idle hours are a waste of money. This is the philosophical underpinning of all our modern stress that time is too valuable to waste. You talk about how we've been indoctrinated to believe there should be a purpose to everything we do, or else it's a waste of time. And you even kind of relate it to, you're like, look, I like to ride my bike, I like to ride outside. But because we're in this just sort of hustle culture, and that we feel like there's always this incentive to work more, work more, work more. You're like, I'm inside pretending like I'm climbing a hill.
- [22:51]
Katherine Price
Oh, yeah. Like riding a bike inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're biking literally to nowhere. Like, I'm just looking at Christmas decorations in my basement. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:59]
Jenny Urich
Or even if you're in a class and you did say that, you said something like, bike the fastest to nowhere. Going up these imaginary.
- [23:07]
Katherine Price
Oh, yes, yes. I get very competitive. If I go to a spin class and they have those ranking boards, I feel this need to win the class. And it's like, what am I doing? I mean, I have type 1 diabetes, and so if I do really hard exercise and get competitive, it actually messes up my blood sugar. So I think I was writing about this in the book. I remember having one class where I just killed myself because I wanted to win in a spin class. I came in second, and maybe it was first, I don't know. But look at that. I don't remember it. I was certainly the only person who cared in that moment. But I remember getting off the bike and my blood sugar was like two or three times what it should be. And I'm like, oh, who won this? Catherine, you lost. Yeah. And you're, like, just sprinting. Yeah. Like you're saying on a stationary bike to nowhere. It's just.
- [23:48]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [23:49]
Katherine Price
It's just kind of ridiculous if you think about it.
- [23:51]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, yeah. You use the word dystopic. And I like. It kind of is. You're like, I would love to be outside, just in the fresh air, riding my bike. And here I am doing this spin class. And. And a lot of us are doing it for efficiency's sake. And you wrote in the book, we've cut out expressions of our basic humanity because they're inefficient. Boredom, long phone conversations, hobbies, neighborhood barbecues, membership and social clubs. And we've cut them out. So it's just a reminder to really think about that time value paradox. And maybe you haven't thought about it before. Even if you're salaried, you write, there's always more work that you could do.
- [24:25]
Katherine Price
Yeah. When you're checking your email at night. You also reminded me of. I think that we tend to pass this on to our kids, which is a real problem. This idea that there's there not a purpose to what you're doing, then it's not worth it. And you see that even with, like, organ sports, are these things where there's an Extrinsic motivation. You know, play the piano so that you can perform well in the recital or do the sports, like do a competitive league of baseball when you're in third grade and you know, go on travel soccer teams sometimes kids really enjoy that. And I know that there's many other benefits that come with stuff like that, but it is interesting that we start to put this kind of purpose driven mindset onto our kids from a really young age too. And then, then they grow up to be stressed out adults like us.
- [25:03]
Jenny Urich
Yep.
- [25:05]
Katherine Price
I don't know, it's depressing.
- [25:07]
Jenny Urich
And they don't, I think the, the point is, is they don't know what, what lights them up. And that's one of the biggest pieces because, you know, you talked about it as an adult and I felt that way, gosh, I've got an hour. What am I going to do? Am I going to cross stitch? You know, that you've forgotten? It's almost like when a new season comes, I feel like this. We're in Michigan, so. And it's like heading into fall and I'm always like, what did I used to wear?
- [25:30]
Katherine Price
Yeah, it's my first day with like a fall sweater, you know, on. Actually today just got chilly this morning for the first time. I'm in Philadelphia. Yeah. Yeah. You have to remind yourself. Well, I think kids tend to know that and then we drive it out of them or we're like, oh, you have an interest in soccer, let's turn it into like a really serious thing. And then they start to forget the joy that they had. I remember I've got a friend who's a professional dance instructor and I remember showing him a little clip of my daughter dancing just freely when she was like 5 years old. And he's like, that's what we try to get back, back into people when we teach dancing, you know, like we drill it out of them.
- [26:04]
Jenny Urich
That's why this is so important to read. If you're listening in and you're a parent or you work with kids because you talk about that. You talk about kids in the book and in childhoods and water Fun. You had an, you had a part where you were talking about how you were at, I think your parents pool and all the adults are trying to catch two balls at once jumping off of the diving board. You're like, that is what kids do. That's what kids do. They make up games. You're like, but these things are always fun. So you're like, if you can find anything with water, if you can find anything where you're playing catch. And so not treating childhood as his resume building opportunity. Not adulthood either.
- [26:37]
Katherine Price
Well, yeah, yeah, I have to, I have to give a follow up on that story. That game we call two balls for reasons hopefully are obvious because you're throwing two balls at people. So that basically is, I know, as we're coming into fall, but the next time in your pool you just get two tennis balls and then you get some friends and then you jump off the pool one by one and you try to catch, catch two balls as you jump off the diving board. And you can do this with adults and kids. And I'm laughing because every year my husband and I organize a camp weekend for our friends and their families. It's a pain in the butt to do it and we always are kind of like, why are we doing this? Are we really doing it again? You've got to find a camp. You gotta like corral adults into committing to a fun weekend ahead of time. Very difficult, but it's always worth it. And this past year we went to this camp and there is this young counselor who at point this, this killer playlist, if I may, which actually was all songs from when, when I was a teenager. We thought maybe they'd like pick the songs, you know, the way they do at college reunions where they know that you're the class of whatever. So they find songs that your class will like. But I think this kid Jen, who's British, he genuinely really likes songs from the 80s and 90s because it's good music. Anyway, he's like blasting a playlist. There's a pool, we find two tennis balls. We start playing two balls with this group of people, adults and kids, three hours, three straight hours of a line of people jumping off the edge of the pool and trying to catch two balls. And it was so fun. It was so fun. And we were laughing on both from the experience itself. And let me tell you, there is like nearly no experience in life more satisfying than catching two tennis balls as you jump into a pool. Like it is so satisfying, but so it was fun in the experience. But then it was so fun on a meta level when we all kind of recognized what was happening. We started at 2:30 and ended at 5:30 with, with some elaborate like throwing balls to each other in a line to get in the pool. And we were all like, we just did that for three hours. How is that and not like with any energy waning? There was no waning of energy. It was like non stop. So all that Is to say, and I think what you were getting at there, you start to realize, oh, it actually doesn't take. Take much. Like, that is a free game, people. If you have a pool, friends and balls, you can play that game, right? Like, I think that's another misconception people have, is that fun costs a lot of money. Or it only happens when you're on vacation, which, of course, you have to finish all your work before you go on vacation, right?
- [28:55]
Jenny Urich
Or you do work on vacation, or.
- [28:56]
Katherine Price
You'Ll work on your vacation, or you'll scroll through your phone on vacation, right? But then you think, oh, no. And then I'd have to. It's for only people who have, like, lots of money because you have to buy a jet ski or whatever or go, you know, skis, just in general, anything with a ski, very expensive. But it's not true. There's actually, as you were alluding to earlier, opportunities for fun all around us. If we look around was amazingly fun. And it's so simple. And it's really about the mindset people got into. If people had been beating themselves up because they couldn't catch the tennis balls, or if, like, you know, we'd been scolding each other or just making fun of each other or just if anyone had been taking it too seriously or gotten super competitive, you know, like, oh, I caught and you didn't, then it would have destroyed the fun. You know, fun is this kind of delicate thing. Like, you can destroy it pretty easily. But everyone was in this playful mindset, and it really made for, honestly, probably one of the most memorable experiences from that weekend. And people were just glowing afterwards. And it was also like an intergenerational bonding thing because it was kids and adults just having fun. Sorry you got me started about that game. It really. It's just funny. That was just, like, two months ago.
- [30:03]
Jenny Urich
I just love that you've named it. It's called Two Balls.
- [30:05]
Katherine Price
Like, I tried to name another name, but, like, what else would you call that?
- [30:09]
Jenny Urich
Well, and what's wild, too, Catherine, is I remember as a kid, here and there, you find tennis balls. So talking about something that I. I was envisioning in my mind. I'm actually glad you explained it, because I was envisioning in my mind, you know, a lot of times you throw, like, those Nerf footballs or you can throw all sorts of things in a pool or whatever out in the grass. So I actually was not picturing in my mind tennis balls. That would be really hard.
- [30:29]
Katherine Price
Well, really any kind. If you got Other balls.
- [30:32]
Jenny Urich
But like that, I like that. I think that that feels, you know, like it's got that little bit of extra challenge because they're pretty small. Right. So you have to have good hand eye coordination. But talking about how inexpensive that could be, I remember as a kid, you know, you find tennis balls, you're out running around, like, I, I don't know, we find them in the woods or someone's. It's landed somewhere. Someone was playing with their dog or whatever. And so, yeah, to have, it's not even like you have to have two Nerf footballs. It's just you get a little one of those tubes of tennis balls.
- [30:59]
Katherine Price
Yeah, they're probably too much because those are too big for your hands. I mean, you could have. We've done it with Nerf balls. You know, pick your balls, people. But like, you know, but yes. Point being, find a random dog that's abandoned. It's very easy and it's free and also not complicated. People get the concept of that game pretty quickly. It's not like one of those board games where you have to sit around for a half an hour and like, like, like, what's that wingspan people keep trying to give me? No, thank you, Yakutan. No, too much. My, my working memory is already so stressed during the day. I want, I, I am at the level of two ball. Like, that's where I want to be in my league.
- [31:32]
Jenny Urich
And a nine year old could just like, totally be incredible at that game. It just. Oh, in fact, one was.
- [31:37]
Katherine Price
Yeah, there was one they, like, she kept. Her dad was one of the throwers. So we think there was a little bit of an insider job going on, but like. Yeah, anyway, I'm glad that we spent this much time talking about two balls because people need to know about this. Yeah, people need.
- [31:48]
Jenny Urich
Well, and what they, what they'll get out of the book. Catherine. And the book is called There's. I've got two of them here that are fantastic. The Power of On how to feel alive Again. And if you want to check out your subject stack, it's called how to feel alive and how to break up with your phone. It's because you did it, you did it. And then you're like, these are the things I did. And so someone can extrapolate from that. How could I do that in my life? What's something similar that I could do? And there's a lot of ideas in there. And you really do such an incredible job of differentiating between true fun and fake fun. And this is Probably a big part of the problem is because we kind of feel like we're having fun. Or you talk about how it might even start off feeling fun, but then it leaves you drained. And so it's fake fun. There's fake fun and true fun. Can you talk about the fake fun? This is, you know, obviously, that Bertrand was talking about in the 1930s. People don't really know what to do with their time, but this fake fun is. Is new. Ish, especially as it relates to technology use. Can you talk about. I mean, we've really been tricked and duped here.
- [32:52]
Katherine Price
Sure. So, as I was saying at the beginning of our conversation, when I looked at fun, there wasn't really a good definition of it in the dictionary. So I came up with my own definition, which I'll lay out now, because then it'll make true fun and fake fun clearer. So I collected stories from people all around the world using my mailing list. I. I asked people, can you please share with me two or three stories that just represent times or experiences that were so fun? That's, like, literally what I said. So was capitalized fun. Because I couldn't think of any other way to ask them that. And I was like, are people really going to know what I'm talking about? What are they going to send me back? And I had a hypothesis of what I thought fun was, at least to me, but I wanted to see if it matched for them. So I collected all these stories from people around the world, and it was actually fascinating because people did get it. They totally got what I was asking. Obviously, the stories were all different, but there was similar energy running through them. Like this, really, as we were talking before, like this buoyant, joyful energy. And there was also something very moving about the stories, something that was very human about the stories, where there was just this feeling of connection where. I don't know, I would read these stories one after the other, and I'd find myself, you know, smiling, but also literally tearing up because there's something really poignant about them. Like, this is. I don't know, maybe it was the sense that this is the essence of what life is about, you know, like one that comes to mind. Oh, my God. I just got a little choked up thinking about this. It's just some person who said that one of her memories was being a child and going out into the rain with her grandfather without umbrellas and just deliberately allowing themselves to get soaked. And this stood after her, like, years later as just this moment of so much fun. You Know, with her grandfather. I am totally emotional now at like 8:33 in the morning. Okay. Anyway, but you know, with stories like that.
- [34:29]
Jenny Urich
But how powerful though, those simple things. Simple things cost no money.
- [34:33]
Katherine Price
Cost no money? Yeah, no money.
- [34:35]
Jenny Urich
But you talk about, you know, the sort of absurdity type things or the things that are novel and you remember them and that's the thing. Like you're not really supposed to. You know, they talk about rejecting the rules kind of. Right. Like rebelling. That's one of the words you use. So that's a little bit of rebelling. Like you're not supposed to go out in the rain.
- [34:51]
Katherine Price
Exactly.
- [34:51]
Jenny Urich
Well, if you go out in the rain, you're certainly supposed to have an umbrella.
- [34:54]
Katherine Price
Yes, exactly. Right, right. And breaking the rules of the supposed rules of responsible adulthood. And then if you see an adult doing that when you're a kid, that's really memorable. So yes, rebellion was definitely a theme that came up, which was fascinating. But the, but the fundamental definition I came up with. Well, first of all, I came to conclude that fun is actually a feeling, it's not an activity. Like I think a lot of times if you ask people what's fun that you. Even if you ask that right now to your listeners, it's like, what's fun? You might be tempted to come up with this list of things you enjoy.
- [35:22]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, I think people would be Disney.
- [35:24]
Katherine Price
Disney, sure.
- [35:25]
Jenny Urich
It's been a little co opted in Amusement park. And then you. Well, that, that, well, that's $600. So it's kind of tricky.
- [35:32]
Katherine Price
Well also if you think about it going to Disney, just to use that as an example, you could have like a magical experience and then you can go on a different day even with the same people and be miserable, you know, and suddenly you're like, oh my God, all the crowds, all the lines. It's like the exact same activity with the exact same people can feel radically different from one day to the next based on other circumstances. So that's why I don't think that you can say that activities are fun per se, but some activities are more likely to lead to the same feeling of fun.
- [36:02]
Jenny Urich
If you're anything like me, your kids can spend hours outside rolling in the grass, digging in the dirt and finding every single bug that's in the yard. Honestly, I wouldn't trade it for anything. That's the good stuff, the stuff I want more of. And that's exactly what earthly believes too. When you love nature, you start to trust it. And that's how they make all their products. Simple, plant based and straight from the earth. Their herbal remedies, lotions and even cleaning products are made with ingredients you can actually pronounce. No junk, no fillers, no nonsense. I wanted my family surrounded by nature, not chemicals. So using Earthly just made sense. My husband was skeptical until he caught a cold that was going around and I handed him feel better fast one night. A few drops and by morning he was hooked. Now he's the one reminding me not to run out. And honestly, they're way more affordable than the over the counter stuff I used to buy. So if you're looking for clean natural products that actually work and fit real life in really muddy kids, check out earthly.com that's E-A-R-T-H L E Y.com natural living made for real life the holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot. This episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop online@marshalls.com.
- [38:01]
Katherine Price
And then I got interested in what is this feeling of fun? And my proposed definition is that true fun as I call it, and I'll explain why I call it true fun in a sec. Is when three things happen at once where we feel a sense of playfulness, a sense of connection and a sense of flow. And when I give talks about this, actually show a graphic that's like three circles like a Venn diagram where there's an three overlapping circles and when they where they all overlap in the center is what I call true fun. So playfulness does not mean you have to be silly or like act like a child. Because I know for a lot of people that's deeply uncomfortable, including myself. But it's more just about your attitude. You know, having a light hearted attitude, not taking things too seriously, finding ways to laugh, silencing your inner critic. So to go back to two balls, our example for this conversation, like I was saying, if anyone had been too serious about that or too Competitive, it would have. The fun would have evaporated. But we all had a playful spirit. So that kind of attitude and then connection is this feeling of having a special shared experience. So that's something that popped up again and again and again and again and again in people's stories. Like, nearly all of them involved another person. And that was true even for people who said they were introverts. And I think that that, to me suggests that it's not that introverts. I'm an introvert, too. Like, it's not like we don't like people. It's just that there's certain types of interactions that allow you to let down your guard and have a playful spirit. And, you know, some people like big groups and some people don't. But nearly all the stories people told me had another person, sometimes a dog, but normally another person. And then flow is the psychological state of being totally actively engaged and present in what you're doing to the point that you can lose track of time. So that can be in an engaging conversation with a friend. The quintessential examples are a musician playing a piece of music, or an athlete in the middle of a game, or the psychologist who coined the word flow. He did a lot of work studying rock climbers. So clearly, if you're trying to scale a rock wall, you're going to be totally engaged and present. And it's really important to distinguish flow from what that man she sent me high called junk flow. Because you lose track of time when you're watching Netflix too, or when you're scrolling on your phone. But that's passive consumption. Flow in its true sense, is active. So anyway, playfulness and connection and flow are all really good on their own. There's actually lots of research on all three of those states, but I came to conclude that when all three happen at once, that's the feeling of true fun, the playful, connected flow. And if each of those ingredients has all this research showing how good it is for us, it stands to reason that fun itself would also be very good for us on a physical level, not just mental, which I can talk about more. But anyway, you were originally asking about this true fun, fake fun distinction, so I came up with this definition for what I then was just calling fun. But then I'm like, wait, but we use the word fun all the time in everyday speech, right? Like we. Like I was just alluding to before. You'll say, like, oh, it'd be fun to get together when you don't really mean it'd be Fun to get together, you never want to see the person again. Or you'll say like, oh, I just looked at social media for fun, but it actually doesn't feel good afterwards. You know, there's lots of stuff we say we do for fun that's not fun.
- [40:57]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Katherine Price
And I realize that that's in part because the word has been co opted by people who are trying to sell us products and convince us to spend our hard earned leisure time on their stuff. Social media is the biggest culprit here, but so are TV shows if you watch them, like beyond the point of enjoyment. But anything that's like passive consumption, that's designed or engineered to suck your time and attention is probably going to be fake fun. You could also say fake fun is stuff like you used to enjoy but now you actually don't like. You, you were in a book club, you used to enjoy it, now you dread it every time. Well, that's sort of like now it's fake fun, it's not actually fun for you. But I find it really useful to just think about how I use my leisure time and to think about it in terms of these buckets. So you have fake fun, which is this stuff. It's kind of like junk food. Like it often feels good at first or is tempting like social media, but then it makes you feel gross afterwards. And as much as possible, I think it's important for us to identify fake fun in our lives and then eliminate it or greatly reduce it because it's just objectively a waste of time. It makes you feel bad and it's your leisure time. So if something's a use of your leisure time that makes you feel bad, get rid of it because it's voluntary. Then you have the stuff that can potentially lead to true fun. You can't kind of always guarantee it's going to be true fun because again, fun is kind of ephemeral. It's hard to pin down. But if you can find or create more circumstances that are conducive to playfulness and connection and flow, you're going to have more true fun. And that's really, really, really energizing and nourishing. And then there's also this third category of stuff that's just quieter activities or solitary activities that maybe don't lead to this like energized, joyful feeling of true fun, but they either give you a skill that you could use to potentially have true fun, or they're just nourishing and nice for yourself. So like yoga, going for a walk, journaling meditating, doing a craft, you know, learning a skill on your own. Like those I'd all put into this middle category. And I think that those are really important to cultivate as well. So, you know, hobbies and things that relax or nourish you, because those also will give you either skills that will be the basis of true fun or just replenish your energy in a quieter way. So that's how I think about my leisure time. I'm basically like, okay, if it's fake fun, no, I don't have time for it because my leisure time is so limited. And then if I have the opportunity to do something I think might lead to true fun, I do my best to say yes to it or to organize it because I know it's going to be worth it. But then I also do try to have these categories or this. Yeah, categories of things that I do on my own, you know, that I can do on, like, a Tuesday night when you can't, as a parent, spontaneously leave the house and meet up with friends. And so for me, a lot of that is music. So just as a side note, like, one of the amazing things that happened to me personally as a result of how to break up with your phone that I offer in case it inspires people to see where their own, like, take a first little step, I guess, is what I'm saying, because you never know where it will lead. I signed up for that guitar class I met. I not only learned to play the guitar, but I met this whole community of people, of adults who also prioritized play and music. And we started playing more together, and they became we. I met an entire community of people that I never would have met otherwise. And then through that same music studio, I got interested in the drums. And so then I started taking drum lessons. And I also already had taken piano, so I was doing guitar. That led to drums. And now I'm actually full circle, taking a jazz piano class at that same studio, because I was like, you know what? That's something I always wanted to get better at, is, like, improvisation. And so it really has expanded my world in a number of ways in terms of the skills I have, the things I can do with my leisure time. You know, I can practice any of those instruments on my own. And then I know that the better I get at those, the more fun I'll have when I'm with people. And then it's also just introduced me to people I would never have met that before. And. And some of those people, I routinely have a Huge amount of fun with. Because we have a. Like, the context in which we spend time together is one where it's just playful, you know, like that. That's the point. Like, we just can be silly around each other. If we're just trying to play a song together, we're not performing it, you know, I think performance sucks. A lot of fun, at least for me. Some people find it very energizing, but for me, the pressure of performing sucks the fun out of things. But I love just getting together and playing around, if you will. I don't think adults play enough in general, anyway. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it sounds intimidating. Just take a little step. You never know where it's gonna lead.
- [45:17]
Jenny Urich
Right. Because one thing leads to the next leads to the next. And that does not happen when you're scrolling on your phone. It does. You know, it doesn't lead to the next. And you talked about how when you were experiencing the satisfaction that comes from acquiring a new skill. So it's two things. First of all, it feels good. You have a new skill. And then when you have free time, you're less likely to waste it because you have something you can go to. Like, if you have. I feel like if I've got a cross stitch in my purse or a book or, you know, then you have something else, a substitute. Same for your kids. If you have something with you, then you can substitute. But one of the things you talked about, and I thought this was a really interesting piece, Catherine. So you have this acronym, and this is kind of near the end of the Power of Fun. It's called spark. So it's like you say, we're naive about how to have fun. Like, we've sort of lost the skill in. Especially in America. It's not prioritized. In fact, some people are hostile to the idea of having fun. So you have this acronym, spark. This is how to get more fun into your life. And the P is pursue passions. And what you talked about was how this is harder, even today than maybe it used to be because of perfectionism. So someone might say, look, you know, you said, I've got a guitarist for my grandma. It's been sitting in my closet for two decades. I would imagine there's a high percentage of people listening in who have a guitar sitting in a closet. You know, at some point, you thought, I really want to learn. I can take it to the campfire. It's portable. It's a great instrument. You get it. You got a ukulele. You know, it's just sitting around you haven't used it. But there is this aversion to being a beginner. Can you talk about how to get over that hump?
- [46:54]
Katherine Price
Well, yeah, we adults, like, just really have difficulty with the vulnerability of not knowing how to do something. I think a lot of having fun is being vulnerable, actually. You know, you have to let down your guard and let go of that inner critic. And that's a state of vulnerability because a lot of us have pretty high walls of, like, you know, wanting to see, seem competent at all times or just not really wanting to let down our guard because we're in some ways scared. So. Yes, but if you think about it, like, everyone's a beginner at everything. I mean, we all were beginners at everything at one point, and you're really shutting your. Yourself off from anything new. If you're not willing to be a beginner, then. Then you're kind of dead. Like you. If you want to do anything beyond what you're doing right now, then you have to embrace the idea that it's okay and in fact, wonderful to be a beginner. There's actually a book called Beginners by an author named Tom Vanderbilt, who wrote a whole. Yeah, he wrote a whole book about the joy and power of being an adult beginner. And he was inspired to write that because he found himself, if I remember correctly, sitting on the basement floor of some school while his daughter was doing a chess tournament. So his daughter's, like, upstairs trying and doing something new, and he and the other parents are sitting, I think he said, with the dust bunnies on the floor, like, charging their phones and, like, doing work, email. Right. Like so. And he had this moment of realizing, wait a second, how. How come she gets to learn and try and do these new things? And here I am, you know, working my butt off to, like, make money so she can be in a chess tournament, but I'm not doing any of it myself. So I think it's wonderful to be a beginner because it also takes the pressure off. If you're a beginner, no one's expecting you to be good. You know, like, no one expected me to come into that guitar class and know how to play anything. I would also say to all those people with the guitar in your closet, if you learn three chords. Three chords you can play gcnd. Yeah, like basically any pop song. So, like, that's the other fun thing that Tom Vanderbilt points out in his book as well, is that the learning curve, like, if you start at zero for most skills, you're Gonna have a pretty steep and therefore very satisfying learning curve in the beginning. It's when you get to, like, a plateau and you're trying to get to the next level. That's when it slows down, you become more challenging. So, I mean, obviously it's going to be very challenging at first if you don't know any chords on the guitar, you don't know where the notes are on the piano, but you can make a lot of leaps and bounds pretty quickly if you're starting from zero. And that's actually a wonderful thing. So in some ways it's like, really. In many ways, it's really fun to be a beginner because you're like, wow, I know. I guess anything multiplied by zero is still zero. But let's say, you know, like, one thing, and you. Then you learn one thing a day for five days. Now you have. It's you 500% more. Not like you've increased it by 500% in five days. Like, that's. That's a pretty, pretty good rate of return on the investment in your time. I've never said it like that. But you know what? If you do the same thing on Instagram, you're going to end up just with wasted time. You will have nothing. So if you also think about it that way, and you'll feel bad and empty and gross. So if you want to go, you can choose between feeling maybe a little vulnerable, but also like you've actually grown and done something and learned something, versus, like, not being vulnerable, but being miserable and bored and still on your couch. Like, that's how I think of the choice.
- [50:03]
Jenny Urich
It's like the two go so hand in hand. Catherine. That's why the books are so important together. You know, you're going to break up with your phone, and then what? And then what? And you have to know that there are other things out there that you can try. And you even talk about how at the early stages, you can build in some external rewards. You say, imagine you're a dog.
- [50:23]
Katherine Price
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it is, you know, it can be annoying if, like, if same thing with a kid, you know, if, like, it is hard to learn the first stages of an instrument or if you've never done that, it is going to be hard. So you can give yourself a reward. Like, oh, I actually did practice today. You know, I'm going to do something, another thing nice for yourself, which is a good idea. But then there will come a point where you get enough skill under your belt where you won't need Those external rewards where you'll be like, oh, this is becoming truly fun because you know, enough to then really start to enjoy it and start to. Yeah, to increase the rate at which you're, like, learning, you know, learning how to do it and developing that skill. Yeah.
- [51:01]
Jenny Urich
And then we're talking about the dog. You were like, dogs send out play signals. I never thought about that. You know, the dog, like, comes up, up, and it puts a pause down real low, you know? And, like, you know that the dog wants to play. And so you're talking about, look, as a human, we should also be sending out play signals, like, smile at people and interact even with strangers. You talk about how there's all sorts of research that shows even interactions that seem meaningless have the power to make us feel less isolated and alone. There was this article called Smartphones Reduce smiles between strangers. And so you walk around. There was a advice to walk around on the precipice of a smile so, you know, we can learn a lot from the animals in our lives. You even talked about how. So most mammals play, but so do even some reptiles. I had no idea, Catherine.
- [51:46]
Katherine Price
So, yeah, there's some. There's some paper. I found it. I think you may be looking at it right now, but I believe there was a paper called, like, fish that leap, juggle, and tease. And I was like, that's. That's amazing.
- [51:56]
Jenny Urich
It is, actually.
- [51:58]
Katherine Price
It must not have been fish, because how could a fish juggle? Well, that's a question. But anyway, there's some, like, either fish or reptile that leaps, juggles, and teases. And there's an entire research paper about this phenomenon. But I was just looking at this for this other project I'm doing. Researchers have seen baby crocodiles, like, sliding down muddy river banks as if they're slides. I mean, there's play in the animal kingdom, and there's all this debate as to why they do it. And I kind of laugh at all these theories. It's like, is that. Are they practicing for adult life? Are they learning how to hunt? All these, like, very serious theories. And I'm like, like, what if they're doing it because it's fun? Like, what if having fun is actually helpful because it helps you bond with each other? And it just also is just fun. Like, again, why do we have to have a purpose to it? We play and have fun in large part because it's fun. And why can't animals and, like, why isn't that enough of a purpose? But I also do think there's genuine Reasons like, it really does create this sense of bonding. And what you were just saying about sending out play signals, you know, one of the biggest things is, like, when you're out in public, put your phone down and look at other people in the eye and, like, smile at them and say hello or strike up a very short conversation. I think that this is getting. Is becoming even more important now that everyone is developing relationships with AI chatbots. Right. Like, we're that averse to vulnerability and that worried about. Yeah. Being vulnerable or, like, opening ourselves up to another person, that we're interacting with AI chatbots. To me, that. Talk about dystopian.
- [53:26]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [53:26]
Katherine Price
But I think a lot of that is that it's not vulnerable. I just was talking with some college students who were saying they've got classmates who now will ask their AI chatbot. It was like an alien chatbot. I was like, what's the difference between an alien chatbot and a chatbot that's just a program in your phone. Apparently it looked like an alien anyway. But asking this alien chatbot to approve their outfits before they went out with. With, you know, on a Friday night, instead of like, calling up a friend or like seeing a friend in person, it was like taking your phone, taking a picture, feeding into AI, saying, does this look okay? Or. Or putting a question into AI before asking the question in class. In a college class, they didn't want to look dumb. Like, that's what I mean when I say we're so worried about. About our appearance or how we're perceived to just be vulnerable and be like, hey, can you human friend, tell me what you think of this shirt? Like. Or ask the question and be brave to. Sorry. Getting a little. Little digression from fun. But I just think that, you know, you're not gonna have fun with your AI chat bot. Like, you just.
- [54:22]
Jenny Urich
Yes, that's the truth. That's the truth. Well, what's so interesting that you brought that up, and I've got a lot of notes here, so I don't know if I'm going to be able to find it, but there was a point where you had talked about, like, you know, you're something in 2017. And at this point, that's a really long time ago as it relates to technology. You know, it didn't used to be that long ago. 2017, it's like, oh, it's eight years ago. But at this point, that in. Because technology changes so fast. So in terms of the AI chatbots or the alien chatbots or whatever they are that is a huge thing that is already changing and over the next couple years will change even more. So we're going to be like, you know, the, the 2030 technology is so different than the 2025 technology was. And so this part about perfectionism, because you even talk about this in relation to your daughter, like, help your kids, like, they don't have to be perfect. But you have this question, who posts a video to YouTube of their first try? I was like, oh my gosh, that's such a deep question, Catherine. Nobody does. Nobody. And I made me think, like, just throw your first thing up there, like. Or, you know, in general, in life, you don't get a second try. You just are there and you have the conversation. And so what a weird thing that that would do to you. You say perfectionism is on the rise. Increasingly, young people hold irrational ideals for themselves. And so then, yeah, the chat bot is going to add to that because now you can be perfect. You can have the chatbot rate your fit.
- [55:48]
Katherine Price
And also, like, why necessarily even record? I think that recording, I like recording things because I get enjoyment watching or listening to, in this case, music afterwards. But not to post it online, not to then post for an audience to judge or look at. It's really, for me because I think, yeah, that, that does suck the fun out of it. But yeah, I really did notice it's like you watch musicians on YouTube, you know, or like those child prodigies on YouTube. And then you're like, oh, oh, I suck.
- [56:18]
Jenny Urich
I saw that woman who could paint with her feet. I was like, what am I even doing with my life? I mean, incredible. Both feet she has. She's. I think she would paint with her hand. It was like four appendages. Kids she's painting with at the same time.
- [56:32]
Katherine Price
I'd be happy if I could paint with one. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then we watched that and then we, we. I think one of the problems is that like, we then instead of just being like, wow, that's amazing and good for her, like that probably. First of all, that took a lot of work. Sound like she came out of the womb, like painting with her toes. But then we start to compare ourselves to that. Instead of being like, okay, like, good for that person and whatever it took to get her to that point and then doing our own thing independently, we just have a natural inclination to compare ourselves to other people. So I think that that's one reason that Instagram, for example, can be so harmful to self esteem or just watching videos or Looking at pictures of people's supposed real lives, which is totally fake. Or just seeing. Yeah. These videos where they're performing perfectly or they're doing things perfectly. And you don't see the 172 takes or however long, you know, let alone the years that went into developing that. That skill. I had that with our. With our daughter, actually, where, you know, she'll. She'll be like, oh, you're so good at X. And I'm like, Well, I have 36 years of experience on you. You know, I was 30 years before I had her. Like, yeah, I am better than you. But because of all that time, I, When I was 10, I was not able. You know, it's just interesting. Like, you, you just don't see all the work and the time and the effort and the takes that went into whatever we're then comparing ourselves against. So that's one reason that I don't really like to. Well, I don't watch. I don't spend time watching videos online because unless it's like, specifically to learn something, but I just don't find that to be good for myself.
- [58:01]
Jenny Urich
Well, it feeds into that perfectionism. And you talked about. There was another really good, deep question. We are still running out of time. There's one. I want to hit one last thing, though, but look at my notes here. Okay, so when you talk about how that's a really deep question. Who posts a video to YouTube of their first try? And also, this is another deep question. When you talked about when you fell in the, in the rowboat in the skull, you're like, you flip out, like, no one's out there. You went out on a storm and you're like, no one's out here rowing. It's just me, this instructor, and you. And you capsized and you say that this was delightfully absurd and it was fun. And you, you had this question, what else would I have done that morning if I hadn't rode. Written more emails? Oh, I was like, that's such a deep question. Because it's so true. Like, what else? If you weren't out there falling in the gross water, what would you have been writing? Emails. You have. You're talking here about the epidemic of loneliness. So I'm talking about AI chatbots. You use this phrase and actually, I think it comes from somebody else, but it's in the book Apart Together and how when you have these bonding experiences, in some ways you're still tied together even when you're apart because you played two balls and everyone had Fun for three hours. And that has bonded you, you know, through space and time. You have these, these deep relationships. But I want to ask one more thing which I thought was so interesting because you talked about these, the different time periods. So like in 2017 they were talking about, you know, Facebook or Meta or whatever, that they're trying to consume as much of your time and conscious attention as possible. So this is 2017, you say 2013 is light years ago when it comes to technology. Here's something I've never thought about though, till I read your book. You know they always talk about how like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates didn't let their kids use this stuff. They didn't have technology in the homes, they couldn't use the iPad till they're 14 or whatever age. But isn't it interesting, Catherine, I've never thought about this, that the research didn't come out for a really long time. And in fact Nicholas Cardera says people were gaslit for years. They're like, these phones are doing something to my kids. And the people will be like, no they're not. And yet it's not like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates waited.
- [60:01]
Katherine Price
Balloons are going off in your background right now, Jenny, and that insight.
- [60:05]
Jenny Urich
So they knew, they had an inkling from the very beginning.
- [60:09]
Katherine Price
Yeah, that is a very good point. I mean I actually hadn't thought about that in precisely that way either because when people now I think things have truly began to shift fundamentally in large part because of John Height's book the Anxious Generation. But you know, when everyday people were like this does weird stuff to my kids. I don't know that this is good. Social media doesn't seem good. The tech companies would then say, well there's no research showing a causal relationship, it's all correlational. And they'd go into this thing. But you're completely right that in terms of many tech executives personal decisions about their kids, they totally went on their instinct and their insider knowledge of what they could see happening. Yeah. From the get go they did not say, well we have to wait for randomized controlled trials showing that there is a causal relationship between the amount of time time spent per day on social media and their self esteem. And perhaps kids who are pre inclined to depression and anxiety are the ones who spend more time on social media and that the relationship is in that direction instead of the other way around. Like all of that stuff that they love to say. Yeah, they did not need that when it came to making decisions about their own children. And I think personally, I think It's a great way to think about it that we are kind of gaslit by these companies because we know. I mean, I'm a health and science reporter by background. I wrote a book about nutritional supplements and vitamins. And in that case my conclusion was I really don't think it's a good idea to take supplements without knowing for sure what's in them and what they do. Like, we do need randomized controlled trials for something you're ingesting for a medical purpose. But in this case with phones, I'm like, actually, I don't think we need to wait for that kind of scientific evidence, even though that is coming out now, by the way. But we don't because this is a personal decision. It's basically. Do you feel like phones and social media and technology are having a bad effect on you or your children? If you feel that, then it's true. Or your relationship, honestly, you know, if your spouse or your partner, the way they use their phone or engage with technology makes you feel bad, you're right. Like it does. There's a problem and you can do something about it, you know, without having a trial behind it. You can change your habits and then see how it feels. And if it feels good, then keep with that habit change, you know, keep going down that path. If it doesn't feel that, say your kid gets off social media, it's going to be bad in the beginning if you do that, by the way. So you got to wait for at least three weeks, like there's going to be a real dip, like a withdrawal period before anything improves. But if you get through the difficult part, you know, say a month later in this habit change, then evaluate how it feels. And if it, if it didn't help, then you know, if you're like, oh, they're just as anxious or just as depressed as they were before, like maybe do something different. But I think we can each actually self experiment more when it comes to our relationships with technology. And trust your instincts. I really do encourage people. I think we're seeing that on a large scale now with phone free schools where teachers knew for years that having phones and devices in schools was disrupting the classroom.
- [63:06]
Jenny Urich
I taught, I taught in 2008, the year before the iPhone came out. And I'm like, but people have blackberries. You're like, immediately, immediately. You're like, this is not a good idea. They're hiding it in their shirts and they're taking pictures of the test and sending it to the next hour. You, like knew immediately and so what's interesting is that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, they did not experience, they didn't allow their kids to be in this social experiment at all from the very beginning. And so we can do the same things like hold off. The books are fantastic and you can check out your sub stack and also all your other resources. I'll put links. You have courses, you have resources. A new book coming out with Jonathan Haidt for teens and tweens on December 30th called the Amazing Generation. A great time to get a book like that. That Katherine, what an honor. Can you give us. We got one last question real quick. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside? We always end with that.
- [63:52]
Katherine Price
A favorite memory from my childhood that was outside. Well, sort of teen years, I guess. But camp. I loved summer camp and I loved being on this particular lake at my camp. It was this huge lake and I spent an entire summer, somewhat ironically, teaching water skiing. I say it's ironic because I didn't really know how to water ski my son, myself, but I somehow I was good enough that I could teach someone who'd never water skied. So again, let not perfection be the enemy of the good enough. And I spent the whole summer basically like floating around in a boat on this lake with Australian ski boat drivers who were very funny and just in this beautiful environment and yeah, that's the first thing that comes to mind.
- [64:29]
Jenny Urich
I love it. Katherine, this has been such an honor. Thank you so much for the books that you have put out into the world, the courses, the sub stack and this new one coming out with Jonathan Hyde Night. It's been just an incredible conversation. I know people will get a lot of a lot out of it. Thank you for being here.
- [64:43]
Katherine Price
Thank you so much for having me.
- [64:49]
Jenny Urich
And Doug here. We have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.