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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 602: There's No Such Thing as a Terrible Toddler | Devon Kuntzman, Transforming Toddlerhood
00:57:23
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When did making plans get this complicated?
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It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together.
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Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone.
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All protected with end to end encryption.
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It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
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Learn more@WhatsApp.com welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urchin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And Devin Kusman is back. We are talking about toddlers. And what is so amazing, Devin, is when I just read your book, it's called Transforming Toddlerhood, which is a phenomenal book. It is so comprehensive. It covers everything. It covers everything. And then you have people, like, they submit their questions. All these questions you've gotten over the years. I'm like, oh, it's such a relatable question. Relatable question. And what's super interesting about it, too, is that a lot of it reminded me of my teens. You know, it's like this toddlerhood and teen stage, they have some similarities in terms of development. So welcome back and huge congrats on this new book.
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A
Thank you so much. Yes, I can definitely say that the teen years are the second toddlerhood. Right. There's a lot of things that are absolutely parallel on these two different developmental periods.
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B
Yeah. So learn them when they're toddlers, and it will serve you well when they become teens. It's actually really helpful. This is a comprehensive book. It came in the mail and I was like, devin did an incredible job. It's like 400 pages, and it's not one that you have to sit down and read. Kids, you got a toddler, they're running around, you're able to kind of pick and grab. There's overall concepts about brain development, how we do this developmentally appropriate parenting. But then also you're like, okay, my kid won't share. My kid keeps going. It's mine. My kid is fighting with their siblings. So all of those little situational things, how do I deal with temper tantrums? Those are woven in there so you can just open it up and, and find what you need. Can you talk about the process of writing such a comprehensive book?
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A
Yes. Oh, my goodness. Well, I've wanted to write a book for a long time, and it just really. I had to wait for the moment to really feel like I had an idea for a book that I thought would actually be a game changer. For parents. And I know as a toddler parent, I really cannot sit and focus on a 20 page chapter. Um, I, like, can't remember what I read like two pages before. And so I was like, okay, we need a guy that can really just be your best friend. And so once I had the concept, it was really easy to write because basically it's broken down into 45 short chapters. And each chapter covers a different parenting challenge that you might face. Whether you as a parent feel like you're going to yell or your parenting partner's on the same page, or you're not sure to how. How to set limits with your toddler, or you're experiencing separation anxiety, parental preference, whining, heading, tantrums, crying, whatever it might be. I have a little mini chapter full of toddler tips, scripts, FAQs and behavior red flags ready to cover that exact topic. So you just flip to whatever your challenge is and then you find the answer.
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B
Oh, it's so perfect and it's so needed. I would love to talk about this pr. You said that the PR toddlehood PR is not great. We really do throw out these dreary, the terrible twos and the terrible threes. And, you know, and so if you've got like a six month old, you're like, almost dreading it. And we do the same thing. For teenagers, it is really interesting how this period of time, this developmental period where they're trying to learn autonomy, they're becoming their own person, it really rubs parents the wrong way. So I love that you talk so much about the joys of toddlerhood. Can you give us, like, the better PR pitch for toddlers?
- [03:51]
A
Yes. Oh, my goodness. So that's why I started off the book with some of, you know, the reasons to really love the toddler years. Because, yes, it's challenging, but it's also critical. But there's also something magical about it as well. The one thing that I love is you get to experience all of these firsts. I mean, toddlerhood is full of firsts. Whether it's like first steps, first words, first. First time riding a bike first. I just remember, like, with my son, like, oh, the first time we went to an apple orchard and went like apple picking. And even last night, the first time he rode like a power wheel. He has like a tractor trailer power wheel. And he rode that for the first time last night. And I was like, oh, my goodness. You just get to see all of these, these first. And also at the same time, toddlers really have this ability to teach us about what's important. They're so present and they're so forgiving. Toddlers really show us how to stay in the present moment and just have that unconditional love and acceptance. And I just feel like when we get past all of these labels that we put on toddlerhood, there's actually a lot of fun and magic to be had. Yes, there'll be challenging moments, but there's also a lot of good stuff.
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B
There's so much good stuff. And you write about it so beautifully. You talk. You have this whole section about things that toddlers teach us. And I thought, what a different reframe, Devin. You know, where the culture is like, oh, it's going to be terrible. And you're like, no. They teach us to be present. It's so beautiful. They teach us, like, they teach us about joy in the small things. To a toddler, joy can be found in the simplest of pleasures. A butterfly flitting by, a puddle to splash in. A cardboard box that's transformed into a spaceship. In their world, each moment is an opportunity for discovery and delight. They remind us that happiness is often found in moments of pure simplicity and that life's greatest treasures are often hidden in plain sight. And you talk about how they're. They totally accept themselves. You know, there's no toddler that's nitpicking how they look or, you know, or what they're wearing, or. They live authentically without the fear of judgment. They teach us to slow down. It's such a beautiful way of looking at toddlerhood. And I 1000% agree, you know, and you don't get those firsts forever. We live in Michigan, and it's apple season, so you're talking about, you know, going to pick apples or.
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A
Yes.
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B
And, like, you take your kid for the first time. I mean, what a wonder that must be. There is this big red thing that is growing on a tree, and I can pull it off and eat it. Well, you know, we go. So we go every year. Cause we live in Michigan. It's like what you do in the fall. And we've gone sometimes with our older kids on a field trip. And the lady will. You know, there's a lady running the field trip, and she'll be like. And you put your hand up and you grasp the apple, and then you twist and pull, you know, and then she's like, having everybody, like, pretend like they're doing the motion. And all my kids are like, oh, my gosh, you know, because they've been doing It. Since they were little, they're like, this is so boring. You know, like, do we have to pick apples this year? But what a difference from when they're little and they go for the first time.
- [06:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's just so beautiful. I just think that, you know, the reason I started transforming toddlerhood was really to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible. And even though we're trying to get rid of this language around toddlerhood, that it's terrible because it really does us a disservice. It does our kids a disservice. At the same time, it absolutely. Toddlerhood has its ups and downs and can be challenging because it challenges our. Our sense of control as your child is becoming their own person. And so, you know, two things can be true at the same time, but it doesn't have to make it terrible.
- [07:22]
B
Yes, I agree. Amid the endless messes, sleepless nights, and temper tantrums, it's easy for us parents to lose sight of the beauty and wonder that defines this phase of childhood. And you also talk about. You bring it up several times. Well, part of this is that you get to grow, too, as a parent. So your toddler is growing. They're moving into this new phase. Can you talk about that? Actually, that's a good thing for the parent because you get a chance to work on your own skills, your own life skills.
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A
Yes. You know, that's the hardest part, I think, of being a parent is that we are still kind of re parenting ourselves, working through our baggage at the same time as parenting the small human who's trying to become their own person and has their own agenda. And that agenda doesn't always our agenda. And that can feel really frustrating and triggering. And so how do you balance all of that? And I think the biggest thing is that reminding parents that you don't have to have all the answers in that moment and you're allowed to learn alongside your child. Because when we're striving for perfection, when we think that we have to have every answer for everything and respond the most perfect way, of course we're human beings, and it's not going to happen like that. And then we start feeling discouraged and beat ourselves up, and that can just create this negative thought loop and that then negative way of interacting with our child because we feel like we're failing or there must be something wrong with them to act this way when in reality, we're all human beings, we're all learning. And so when you can embrace that growth, mindset when you can say, instead of saying, I messed up, I'm failing, I'm so bad, you could say, I messed up. Here's what I learned. Here's what I want to do different next time, and then go practice it. That's really a game changer. And I. I always. That each and every moment is an opportunity to practice again. All you have to do is accept the invitation.
- [09:16]
B
It's so good. You say toddlerhood matters, right? They're talking about this really matters. It's this pivotal time for a child, for their brain. But it also matters because it grows the parent. So it's not just about the child changing. It's also the parent changing. Like, you might learn how to break your cycle of reactivity. You may. Like, you talked about this reparenting where you're. You're really growing as a person. And I think there's a lot of power there. And I like that when people talk about that, because it's hard, but there's good. There's good and hard because you're going to grow. All right. I'd love to talk about some of the specific things. So you talk about this parental roller. There's like, parental roller coaster, and it's so relatable. You talk about, like, this day where everything was a trigger. His breakfast was too hot. His favorite shirt was in the wash. His. His toy car wasn't zooming the way he wanted it to. So it was like. It is. It's unpredictable. It's unpredictable. Can you talk about how did, like, I think one of the hardest things about. And we haven't had toddlers in a long time, but I felt like one of the hardest things was the unpredictability of it. And I felt a lot of the time like I was on edge. You're, like, kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like, they're gonna be really upset about, like, for our kids, it was always like, their food was broken. So you're gonna give them a granola bar, but accidentally it, like, had. And they didn't want it in two pieces. They want it as a full. Or the banana, anything. They want the orange, the whole thing, it's broken apart. Or one piece is missing, and you can't fix that. You can't put the banana back together. So you're almost, like, on edge a lot. Can you talk about how to deal with that? Like, in. One of the things you talk a lot about is just expectations.
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A
Yeah. Well, I had the same exact thing happen to me the other day. Where the granola bar was broken in half. But actually, my toddler didn't freak out, but I was braced for it. Then I was like, oh, he doesn't care. I guess we're past that point, you know, But I think that's the thing, is, like, toddlers brains are developing so rapidly that everything is changing on a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly basis. So something that's going to really upset your toddler now is going to not be a big deal three weeks from now, but there's going to be something else that feels like a really big deal to them. And I think there's a couple of things happening. First, because that development's happening so rapidly, and we see toddlers being so independent physically, and then they're able to talk to us, we think that they have emotional development. We think that they are able to regulate their emotions. We think that they should have more impulse control when really that's an unrealistic expectation. And when we have unrealistic expectations for our toddler's behavior, we're going to be more frustrated by the behaviors that we see because we think our toddler is, like, being bad or just not doing, like, what they're supposed to do. There's something wrong, there's a problem. Be f. On top of that, whenever you. It's hard to hear your child be upset, right? And toddlers have spent a lot of time in their emotional part of their brain because the part of the brain that is responsible for emotional regulation isn't as developed. So your toddlers are quick to react, especially because they have very little control over their lives. So they try to exert control in, like, the weirdest ways, which is like wanting their granola bar in one piece. But as soon as we start to realize that it's not our job to make our children happy, things get a lot easier. Because internally, we start to kind of freak out when our toddlers start to get upset. And don't get me wrong, it is hard to listen to your child cry. Like, if I never heard my child cry again, like, it would be great. Like, like, I've had enough tears for a lifetime. And that's not realistic. And that's my personal thing. Like, when we realize that it's okay to experience and express the full spectrum of human emotion, the sooner we can accept that, then the less upset and the less freaked out we're going to be whenever our children are having big emotions. Because I think a lot of, a lot of toddlerhood is us feeling really resistant to what we Label as like the negative emotions and then really just only wanting to see the positive emotions. But if we can just embrace the fact that the full spectrum of emotions are okay and that's not our job to make our children happy. You can't control someone's feelings and emotions. It's just our job to support our children so they feel seen, heard and loved and unconditionally accepted, then that's really our job. And when we start focusing on what our job actually is, it gets easier to hear the tears.
- [13:52]
B
I like that, Devin. And you talk about that in the book. It's really reiterated that kids are going to have big feelings and they don't really have the ability to manage them. They're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time. And I think especially if it's your oldest, you don't know that at some point it's just going to end. And there's not really anything that you. I think part of the fear. I. Tell me what you think, especially dealing with all the parents. You know, you have workshops and you've just been dealing with parents for so long. I think one of the fears is that as a parent you have to control it because maybe they're going to be this out of control 7 year old and. And a lot of the things are just developmental and they're going to go through that phase and then it's going to be over. Regardless of what you do as a parent. Like, I know, but then I know that there's like some nuance to it because you talk about how in some ways, if you pacify a child with a screen or with a treat, then you can reinforce some of these things that are hard to deal with, but for the most part it feels like they grow out of it.
- [14:57]
A
Yeah, it is really nuanced. Right. And so this is where like toddlerhood is a very specific developmental period where a child is like usually having two competing needs at the same time. And that's what makes it so hard for toddlers to kind of function in the world because they want so badly to be independent, but they also are relying on you as their safe and secure base to provide for their needs, their physical needs, like teenagers. Right. And their emotional needs. Yes. And so what is happening is when this is so prominent in toddlerhood, it's really challenging. And yes, then your child becomes like, you know, school age and that becomes a little bit less prominent. So you'll see things get a little bit easier, especially whenever their brains are more fully Mature and they're, it's easier to have things like the emotional regulation skills and things like that. But the thing is, just because your toddler's brain has matured now as a five and six year old, the part of the brain that's responsible for impulse control, emotional regulation is more mature. It doesn't necessarily mean they'll automatically have the skills. Right. So yes, you'll probably see like less meltdowns, but at the same time, are they going to have the skills to really calm themselves down, to process their emotions? Not automatically. Right. They pick up what we model and what we teach them. And so that's why toddlerhood is so important. So it's, it's yes and no. Right. Like kids are always going to grow, change and develop and we're going to automatically see less tantrums and less things, but they still need us to support them in learning the skills they need to be successful. And the sooner you start that, the easier it gets.
- [16:37]
B
Yeah. So there's a couple of big things to watch out for. But then also it's important to know what your expectations should be, considering what their development is like ginny here with 1,000 hours outside, if you're like me, you know that the best gifts aren't the ones that end up on a shelf. They're the ones that get muddy, sun soaked and full of memories. That's why I am so excited to tell you about our friends at Womb Bikes, a family focused company that truly gets what childhood should feel like. Womb makes the lightest, smartest, safest bikes on the market. Designed specifically for kids. From their very first balance bike all the way to those confident neighborhood cruisers. Every detail is built for little riders, from easy reach brakes to perfectly balanced frames. So kids don't just learn to ride, they learn to love the ride. And this holiday season, you can give a gift that leads to a thousand hours of joy, confidence and connection. Outside, head to womb.com and use the code outside 10 for 10 off. New bikes and accessories. But hurry, it is only good until November 15th. That's womb. W-O-O-M.com and use code outside 10 for 10 off by November 15th. This year, don't just give a bike, give them a reason to ride and a lifetime of adventure. You know that moment when your kids walk in the door from playing outside and they're acting like they haven't eaten in three days. Each one wants something different and you're standing there thinking, do I look like a short order cook? Yeah, that was my Life until I found Nurture Life. This podcast is sponsored by nurture life. It's 2025, but are you still feeding your kids like it's 2005? Nature Life is a meal delivery service that makes fresh, fully cooked meals and snacks your kids actually want to eat. We're talking nutritious, balanced meals for kids ages 10 months to 10 years old. Ready in just a minute. What I love is that Nurture Life manages to sneak in the veggies while still serving all the classics Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, even finger foods for toddlers. Here's how it works. You pick from over 50 meals and snacks. Nurture Life cooks them fresh every week and they show up right at your door in refrigerated packaging. It's allergy friendly, dietitian designed and genuinely delicious. My kids adore it and I love that the stress of mealtime has disappeared. Head to NurtureLife.com 1000hours55 and use code 1000hours55 for 55 off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 55 off plus free shipping. Once again, that's NurtureLife.com1000hours55 and make sure you use my promo code 1000hours55. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our code so our show gets the credit. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. You know how the mornings are starting to get that extra little chill. I've noticed it every time I head out the door. And lately I keep grabbing my lightweight down puffer jacket from Quince. It's warm, it's light, and it's become my go to layer. Cooler days really do call for layers that last, and Quints is where I find those essentials that feel cozy, look refined and don't blow my budget. Think 50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters, premium denim that fits like a dream, and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These aren't one season pieces, they're the kind of staples that quickly become your fall uniform. Right now I'm eyeing their wool coats. They look totally designer, but the price tag is just a fraction and honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better. Here's why. Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you get true luxury quality at half the price of similar brands. If you are ready for a wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless, find your fall staples at quints. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside. So you talk about how, like, toddlers don't understand time. That's really important to know because you're gonna say, well, in five minutes we're cleaning up. And they don't understand that. This is such a good part of the book where you say, many parents ask me, how can you tell if your expectations are too high for your toddler? What's your answer?
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, so oftentimes the first thing I say is, well, your toddler's behavior is going to tell you if your expectations are too high. Because, like, there isn't some, like, magic formula. What we need to do is look at where our child is at. And instead of. So this is, like, the idea I always like to use. I always like to picture, like, your child on one side of a little stream and you on the other side, and there's like a little bridge, right? And so if we're on the other side of the bridge and, like, demanding our child to come over yelling and doing, you know, song and dance and, like, demanding they come across that bridge, that's kind of like when we're having an unrealistic expectation and we're like, just, we think they should be able to do this. So we're just gonna, like, keep pushing until they do it versus meeting your child where they're at. So that means you, like, walk across the bridge, you come up beside your child, you hold their hand, and then you say, okay, here you are. What's the next step we need to take to get closer to the other side of the bridge. And you go together. And that's called scaffolding. You build on the skills and you scaffold it. Like, for example, you want your toddler to start getting dressed by themselves. Well, if you just throw, like, their clothes at them and say, here, go get dressed, like, it's probably going to be a little bit challenging because, believe it or not, that takes a lot of brain power and coordination for a young child to be able to get dressed. So we've got to work on it piece by piece. So it might be teaching your child how to pull down their pants. It might be teaching your child how to, you know, find the leg holes and put their legs into a pair of pants. But Every time you meet your child, where they're at, whether it's a physical skill or an emotional skill, and you walk alongside them and take one step forward instead of trying to jump to the end, that's where things are going to get easier and you're going to build those skills together.
- [22:39]
B
It's so important to know. So all this book talks. You know, the book has got all of these ideas and strategies, and then also it gives you a clear understanding of what is reasonable to expect. Because you say, as parents, we often fall into the trap of expecting our children to behave in a way that developmentally they aren't capable of. And this is a common problem because you say, about half of parents believe that children are capable of self control, these young children, that they're capable of all these things, other developmental milestones, much earlier than they actually are. So it's really good to have proper expectations and also to know that this is a developmental phase. But also there's that nuance there of making sure that you're not parenting in a way that maybe would take this phase and prolong it because they. They didn't learn what they needed to at that age and stage. Is that how you would say it?
- [23:35]
A
Yeah. Or the opposite even is like, I meet some parents that are just like, well, toddlerhood's just gonna be hard. It's gonna be a mess. So, you know, they just kind of be like, whatever happens, happens. You know, but then you're actually missing this critical window where you can teach your child skills, conflict resolution skills, emotional regulation skills, physical skills that will carry them and create a foundation for the rest of their life. And so, you know, just because we know that toddlerhood doesn't last forever and that your child will, you know, grow and change and develop, doesn't mean we should just sit back and be like, meh, well, whatever happens, happens. Because then we're just missing this beautiful opportunity to set a really strong foundation for your child.
- [24:19]
B
Right, right. And that goes back to that. There are things that could prolong some of these things that are meant to be in this developmental window. Like the screen time. Like if you. Not screen time exactly, but like, if you use it. I thought this was really important. You say using a screen because this is where we're at in society. Using a screen treat or giving into demands that are outside of your boundaries and the limits you set to prevent tantrums can reinforce them. And you also talk about reinforcing whining. Using a screen to distract your toddler is not A solution for stopping tantrums and can lead to bigger problems, bigger behavior challenges down the road. So that's why you gotta know both, right? It's like, you gotta know about the expectations, but you also have to know that sometimes you are, you know, you do need to take this time to help guide your child so that they can learn the things that they're supposed to learn in that developmental period. Can we talk about some of the specifics? We. The last time you came on, we talked about tantrums. I just want to briefly hit it again, though, because tantrums are like. That's like the big thing, right, where you're like, you know, you're just so hoping that they don't have one out in public. We actually were yesterday at this Greenfield Village. It's. It's in Michigan. Maybe I even told this story last time. It was my. One of my bigger tantrum experiences where I, like, I had to take a child, you know, like, we're leaving, and I don't think he want to go or didn't want to put his coat on. It was something like that. Anyways. I had to carry him out, you know, he was like, just lost it, screaming. And then he probably fell asleep in the car. He was probably tired. And I could remember. I mean, it's probably been 10 years, you know, I can remember, like, right here on this sidewalk is where I carried you out, you know?
- [26:02]
A
You know, it's like burning your brain, right? When you experience that.
- [26:05]
B
Yes. I actually think what happened was that was like one of our kids was so adamant that I did everything. Like, no one else could dip his coat. No one else could buckle him in. No one else. He would go, mommy, do it. So, like, the grandma would try and help, or even my husband, I think, and he'll be like, mommy, do it. I honestly think that it was that. I think someone else tried to help him zip his coat, and he was like, mommy, do it. And then it was just all over and I had to carry him out. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, I haven't had to do that in a long time, but I remember doing it. So there is. That is a big fear, right? There's this fear of the unknown. This kid is. You know, they're going to lose it over something that I didn't even know that they were going to lose it over. And then also, especially if it's out in public. So I think the biggest thing you talk about is, like, this is actually normal behavior. Everyone should know, this is normal behavior. If you see a toddler out in public having a tantrum, that's what toddlers do.
- [27:05]
A
Yeah, it's, you know, and it's for two reasons. First of all, there's a lot of things that happen throughout the day. And toddlers need a way to release their feelings and emotions. And as adults, we have all types of ways, I would say, both positive and negative, that we deal with and release our emotions. Right. Toddlers have very little options. Their options are basically falling to pieces and then coming back to their emotional equilibrium, having that emotional poop, as you could say. And so that's happening. And one thing that really exacerbates tantrums is the fact that your child so badly wants to have a sense of control over their life and world. But there are so few ways toddlers truly have a sense of control in their lives. So they try to get control by, you know, requesting like the blue cup, not the red cup, or the granola bar, but has to be in one piece or mommy only zipping the coat. This is where they're just trying to grasp for little pieces of control. And then when it doesn't work out, there's a deep disappointment because they're developmentally driven to have a sense of control. And so then they have that deep upset and disappointment. That seems to us like, okay, this seems a little over the top, really. Are you, are you serious right now? But to your child is so deeply real because it's. They're having to deal with what they're, what the root of their behavior and what they're trying to accomplish in life. Feeling blocked. And that is super frustrating. And so that's why we see so many tantrums in toddlerhood, which doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong as the parent. And it doesn't mean your child's doing anything wrong wrong either. It just means that you guys are both human beings just doing what you do.
- [28:59]
B
That's so important to know. Tantrums are a typical part of development. They are essential for your child's emotional growth. Crying is also a natural and essential part of a toddler's development, often sparked by moments that seem insignificant to us but feel earth shattering to them. And then you say, by the time they're five, tantrums usually begin to subside. But you do have, in the book, you have red flags. So here and there you're like, okay, if this isn't changing or if you see maybe they're self harming, make sure you pay attention. Because that's a big thing for parenting, especially if it's your first time through. You're like, I don't know if this is normal or not normal or if I. If I should be concerned. So I love that those red flags are sprinkled in throughout the book. So what is your advice for responding to tantrums? I know people send in questions, and you have like, well, should I ignore it? And what if they're banging their head against the wall? Like, is that something that I should pay attention to? I love that you have the overview, but then you also get down to the nitty gritty of people's, like, actual. There's always. Isn't there always. There's always, like, the little questions, well, what about this situation?
- [30:02]
A
Exactly. And that's. I was like, okay, how do I, like, fit in all the nuances? But also, like, keep this book at a manageable, like, word count here. So I got the idea of putting in these FAQs at the end of every chapter, which kind of, like, reminded me of, like, blog posts and stuff as well, where then I could, like, dive into, like, some specific nuances to help parents know how to navigate them. And I have that for the end of every single chapter that is covering a specific parenting challenge, like tantrums. And so when it comes to responding to tantrums, the overarching thing I want everyone to know is that typically less is more. And then what you want to do is create physical safety. You want to make sure that your child is not going to harm themselves. So if they're, like, hitting their head on the ground, you put your hand underneath their head or a pillow and you say, I will not let you hit your head on the ground. It's unsafe. Or you move them to a bed or you move them somewhere safer. You make sure you're. You're safe. If your child's, like, trying to kick you, you take a step back, right? Make sure everyone's safe. And then your biggest job happens. During a tantrum, your biggest job is to ground yourself. To ground yourself, take those deep breaths, do some type of calming exercise, whatever works for you. To ground yourself and stay calm. Because this is where you have a choice. A choice to jump on your toddler's emotional roller coaster and go for the wild ride together, or to be the person who's standing outside who's not getting on the roller coaster, and that's actually pulling the brakes. And the way you pull the brakes is by staying calm yourself. And then you are not feeding into that energy for your toddler. At the same time, if you've set a limit, you want to uphold any limits that you have, and then you want to take time to, you know, hold space for those emotions. But you also might need to move on, too. And so don't be afraid to move forward, like, turn on some music, get out a toy that your toddler loves, start making dinner, whatever might be next on your agenda. And because sometimes toddlers need to know it's okay to move forward. And they can kind of just get stuck in the cycle, or they're in the cycle because they think, oh, mom or dad hasn't, like, moved on yet, so maybe there's a chance the thing that I'm hoping for will happen. Right? So it's important to also, after some time, start to move on too, and your toddler will follow.
- [32:32]
B
It's such good advice. It's such a big part of the toddler years, and it's important to know that they're not doing it on purpose. You say your toddler doesn't wake up thinking, how can I make my parents life miserable today? We don't have to measure our success by their behavior. And you say, if it's in public, a simple I'm doing my best can go a long way. You know, it is so hard because everyone starts to stare at you. So I mean, that's a. That's a cultural problem. Like, we need to stop staring. And just everybody needs to know this is a normal part. It's essential for, for the toddler, it is essential.
- [33:03]
A
It's essential for their emotional development. If your toddler never fell to pieces, they wouldn't learn how to regulate their emotions. They wouldn't create. They wouldn't learn that emotional resilience. So as much as tantrums can be challenging for us, they're also part of creating that emotional resilience, which is so important. And the unfortunate, unfortunate part is that humans are fortunate or unfortunate, depending on the situation. Humans are curious by nature, which is amazing because our curiosity makes so many things possible. However, in a grocery store tantrum moment, when all the human beings in the store are curious and start looking, that's an unfortunate moment that human beings are just naturally curious. Right? But remember that we're usually our own own worst critic. Just because someone's staring doesn't mean they're judging you. They might be remembering that moment. Like, you know, Jenny, you were just speaking of, of like, oh, I remember being in that corner of the store with a big meltdown or, or they might be feeling compassionate for you. And if they're not, if they truly are judging you, that's actually, I just want to say it, that's their problem. That is their own personal reaction to their life story, their life experiences, and actually has nothing to do with you and your child. That is their own.
- [34:22]
B
And probably they've never had a toddler. If someone is really judging you for your toddler's tantrum, they probably haven't had one because everybody knows that these tantrums just happen. And in fact, you had this section in your chapter about crying, understanding crying. You know, these are reasons parents have told me just in the past week that their kids cried. Their toddler was crying. My toddler cried because I wouldn't let the dog drive him to daycare. My toddler cried because the bath was too wet. My toddler cried because he wanted syrup for breakfast. No pancakes, no waffle, just the syrup. He cried because his sister kept looking at him. He cried because he was offered a tangerine.
- [34:58]
A
Yes, that's. That they asked for already five minutes ago and now you've given it. And they're like, oh my gosh, how could you possibly do this to me? I mean, and if anyone has a sensory kiddo, yeah, you've probably been in a situation where you're toddler has been in the bathtub and they're complaining it's too wet, like when you've washed their hair or something. I mean, it's just.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, so these are natural. They're growing through. You actually talk a lot in here about sensory. You know, healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support and sometimes it even takes a puppy. Capstone wellness is unlike anything I've ever seen. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families by combining faith, clinical excellence and some truly creative approaches to healing. At Capstone Treatment center, teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health or addiction are given something extraordinary. A Labrador retriever puppy. On admission, that puppy stays with them through the program and goes home with them when they graduate. It's not just a dog, it's a partner in responsibility, in attachment, and in bringing families back together. And if residential care isn't what you're looking for, vine and Roots intensives offer individuals, couples and families months of world class counseling packed into just a few concentrated days. It's designed to trace hurt back to the roots and begin real healing. Healing is possible. Start your journey today@capstonewellness.com 1000 hours. That's capstonewellness.com. 1000 hours. You know what I love about this time of year? The air gets crisp, the days feel cozier, and suddenly I realize, oh, right, the entire family is coming over. Hosting is such a joy, but it can also feel like a marathon if your home isn't quite ready. This year, I got ahead of it all with Wayfair, and honestly, I don't know why I waited so long. I found the cutest light fixture, some wreaths, and a new comforter set for our guest room for when our son's friend came and stayed with us for a week. And that made it feel like a little bed and breakfast. Everything came fast, shipping was free, and it all looked even better in person. Wayfair really has everything you need to make your home holiday ready, like Christmas trees, cookware, throw blankets, twinkle lights. Even those little touches that make your guests say, wow. Whether you're hosting family dinners, cozy movie nights, or welcoming guests from out of town, Wayfair makes it easy to make your space shine without blowing the budget. So don't wait until the week before Christmas. Start now. Enjoy the process and make your home a place you can truly settle into this season. Get organized, refreshed, and ready for the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Can we hit one more of. Well, a couple more of these really specific things that happen that are just a huge part of toddler toddlerhood as well as childhood in general. Whining. It's so triggering. Why it's so annoying. Like, what is it about whining that's so triggering?
- [37:49]
A
I know. I think it's just the. The pitch of it. And I think it, like, somehow can make us feel like we're inadequate in a way. Right. If you have a child that's constantly whining, I think there's a part of us that can kind of go to this place that's like, I'm not enough. I'm not doing enough. What does this child need from me right now? You know, we can kind of, like, take it personally and, like, make it about ourselves when indeed it's. It's not really about us at all. And I think also just this. The what how we were parented in the past, you know, if we as children whined and maybe we were shut down or, you know, spanked or who knows what, that then that sent a message about Whining Right. So then that we. We can start looking at whining through that lens of something that's bad or wrong. So of course we're gonna have very little tolerance for it if we've been programmed to think that there's something inherently bad or wrong about it. So I think it's all of those things that just kind of add up.
- [38:52]
B
It's so interesting to read these books, Devon, because. And to talk to you, to read things about toddlerhood when you're out of that phase, because you kind of forget. You forget, like, I mean, our kids are teenagers. Nobody really whines anymore. And like, you talk about that pitch, you know, that higher pitch and the way that the words come and it's just kind of innate. And I. And I'm like, well, what did I used to do? And I think I used to say, like, can you say it again without whining? Can you say it again without whining? Or I'll respond when it's not whining. Just like, whatever. Kind of matter of fact, is that the right thing to do?
- [39:24]
A
Yeah. So here. So I talk about this a lot in the book. So especially if you have an older toddler, which in the beginning of the book, I separate toddlerhood into younger toddlers 1 and 2, and then older toddlers 3 and 4. 4. The difference is that 1 and 2 year olds have less expressive language skills and 3 and 4 year olds have more expressive language skills. So it kind of changes how things happen a little bit. But, you know, when you have a toddler that has more expressive language skills, saying something like, I really want to help you and ask me in a talking voice like this, and I can help. So, you know, so what you're doing is you're modeling the voice you want them to use. You're not saying, you use your words. Because, listen, if your toddler is whining, they're dysregulated in some way, and they'd use their words if they could in that minute. Unless whining has been reinforced, then your child has learned, oh, this is actually really effective way to get whatever I want. And so then they might be whining because they've just seen, like, it works in the past. But usually when whining starting, it's because your child's dysregulated. And so instead of saying use your words, which isn't super helpful because it doesn't really tell your child what to do, you can say, oh, gosh, I know you really, you're really frustrated or I really want to help you ask in a talking voice like this. Now you're modeling, they're hearing it and it's going to be more helpful for them. If you have a younger toddler, there's a lot of whining and 1 and 2 year olds, especially 1 year olds, where they aren't able to actually say what they want. And that is so hard because they're whining because they don't have the words to communicate what they need. In that case, saying use your words also is not going to get you anywhere. So what you want to do is give them practice the vocabulary. So if you know your child wants their water bottle and they're whining and they didn't get it, you know you're, they can't get it themselves, then you say something like water please, water please. And then you give it to them. So you're actually just modeling the language. And then you can also use signs too, which can help with communication and reduce whining for younger children. But in the end it's about modeling. It's about modeling the skills that your child needs in these moments instead of punishing them for a lack of skills.
- [41:43]
B
Oh, it's so good. It's so good to show them how to say it. And then they really catch on. I think the kids could really catch on. They knew especially as they got older when they were whining and had the capability to make some changes there. So the whole point, like with the tantrums and with the whining is if you can handle it in this way that sort of facilitates change so that they're starting to learn, then it's going to help them in the long run. So it's important to know these things for sure. Okay, let's talk about something. A lot of the parents listening in, they got toddlers, they're taking them outside, they're going to the park. And one of the trickiest things about taking toddlers outside, and especially if you're going to stay for a while, which is what we're trying to do, trying to go to the park from 8 in the morning, you know, 9 in the morning, till 1 is they're immersed in their play and they're having such a good time and they don't want to leave. So can you talk about the transitions? That's such a hard part.
- [42:39]
A
Yeah, I would say this is probably one of one of the hardest parts of toddlerhood in our family is the just about anywhere that we go. My Son is so enthusiastic about going anywhere, whether it's out in nature or to a park or to a friend's house. And they're having. He's having so much fun, he doesn't want to leave. So here's the thing. We can make it easier. And this is one question in the book that I don't answer just in one place, but leaving is like a theme I. An example I use throughout the book. This is probably the only example that I use, like, throughout the book where there's not just like one dedicated chapter on it. But what I want to say is that what can be helpful is setting the expectation in advance. So letting your kiddo know that, you know, we're going to go to the park, we're going to have fun, and then we're going to leave and go home and make dinner, you know, just talk about how the day is going to go. We think that toddlers should just inherently know, like, how the day is going to go, but they're living in the present moment. They don't have the plan in their head. We have the plan in our head. So we got to get better at keeping communicating the plan and expectations in general, then giving like a five to ten minute warning, letting them know that we're going to leave soon. And then you could even kind of direct how it ends. So you could say something like, okay, what's the last thing you want to do? Do you want to swing one more time or go down the slide one more time? So now we're like, helping them wrap up. We've now connected back to them. We're wrapping up and we're guiding them toward the outside outcome, which is leaving. Okay, then we have to say it's time to go. And sometimes your kid might come, and other times they're still going to lose it, because play is the work of toddlerhood and they don't want to be interrupted. So this is where you say, I know you're having so much fun. You don't want to leave and it's time to go. Do you want mama to carry you or do you want to walk? And then maybe they'll, you know, make a choice. Or maybe you'll be like, do you want to race me to the car? Do you want to piggyback ride? You can even make it fun, too, right? But if they don't choose, then you say, I know you're having trouble choosing. I'm going to choose this time. And you pick up your toddler and say, it's time to go, I know this is hard. I'm going to carry you to the car. And then you bring them to the car. And even if they're kicking and screaming and upset with you, and I talk a lot about bodily autonomy in this book as well. And sometimes there are moments where, like, we're gonna have to pick up our kids and help them follow through on the limit that we set. Right. We don't want to make that the norm. But in situations like this where we're out and about, your child might not willingly come to the car. They might be so upset. And. And so this is where you say, I know you're so upset, and we're going to leave now. And you pick them up and you carry them to the car while taking care of their, you know, feelings and emotions. And it's. It's a challenging moment, right, because you want to respect your child and it's your job to keep everyone safe. And you clearly can't leave your child at the park.
- [45:43]
B
Clearly. Clearly. Yeah, totally. It's. Yeah, it's. I. This is going to sound so awful. Maybe I've said this before, too. I don't know. Like, one of my absolute favorite things. This is going to sound so bad, Devin. Like, when we have friends come over and they, you know, they come over for the afternoon and they play, or, you know, family comes over for dinner. I love it when the kids cry when they leave because I, like, they had such a good time.
- [46:07]
A
You're like, our house is the best.
- [46:09]
B
Please cry more.
- [46:11]
A
People love coming here. I knew it.
- [46:15]
B
I mean, it happens when they are just, like, when they're especially distraught. You're like, they had such a good time. But, you know, I actually think that that's a good thing to remember. It's like, if your kid is so upset to leave the park. Well, you did a good thing. You did a good thing. You facilitated for them this place where they got to fall into their play and do something that was so meaningful to them and so important that they don't want to leave. And until. Those are all really good pieces of advice, especially, like you said the fun part. Do you want to race? You know, but whatever it is, you know, who can carry the heavy bag or whatever, like. And it's that, like, a little bit of distraction. It probably helps with that emotional part of the brain. It's like, novel, and it helps kind.
- [46:58]
A
Of bump out playfulness, right? Like, that playfulness is a way that we can create connection. And when. Because play is really the language of child Childhood. The more playfulness we can bring into the challenging moments, the more cooperation we're going to see because it's creating connection, it's creating influence. And we're just, we're just speaking their language because their language is play.
- [47:20]
B
Yes. It's so good if you can remember that in the moment. You talk a lot in this book about play. So when you were talking about leaving and how that's woven in quite a bit through the book. So is play and so is nature. Both things are woven in from beginning to the end.
- [47:32]
A
You.
- [47:32]
B
Can we talk about one particular part which we haven't talked much about in here on the show is roughhousing.
- [47:39]
A
Yes.
- [47:40]
B
It's. It's good for kids.
- [47:42]
A
It's so good for kids. And I was adamant about including this into this book because not only is this book like your go to place for every toddler parenting challenge you can imagine, but it's also your go to place for raising a resilient child. And we can't talk about helping children become more physically and emotionally resilient without talking about roughhousing. So that's why I talk about. In this book, it is important for kids to have that physical play. It's important. And a lot of parents are afraid and there's even, there's tons of research on it that supports it. But a lot of parents are afraid that, you know, doing roughhousing is like going to make their child like aggressive or like out of control or not listen. And yes, sometimes roughhousing can cross a limit and get out of control. But this is why roughhousing, especially with a parent, can help your child learn self regulation skills. And, and if two kids are rough housing, like siblings, having a parent supervising can also also help them check in with each other to make sure that it's still within everyone's boundaries. So when we're rough housing, we can practice consent, we can practice emotional regulation, we can practice, you know, experimenting with our bodies, physically, what our bodies are capable of. There's so many positive skills that are learned from rough housing. It's almost mind blowing because it seems like too simple.
- [49:16]
B
Yeah. And it almost seems like you're doing something wrong. But you know, one of the questions that someone sent in, because like we talked about, you have all these questions that people send in and one of the questions is, does roughhousing make kids aggressive? And then someone also said roughhousing between, like this is so typical. Roughhousing between my kids starts out fine, but it gets out of control and everyone ends up in tears. I almost think that that's the point. That's where you, like, learn. Almost every roughhousing session ends with crossing the line just a little bit. Across the line just a little bit. Everyone's crying. I don't think anybody ever just is like, well, we're done now. It's like someone starts to cry just a little bit, and then you know you've crossed the line, and then the play ends. And that's the bummer. That's the part that you're like, oh, darn, I wish I wouldn't have crossed the line. I wish I wouldn't have pushed that hard. I wish I wouldn't have, you know, whatever rolled around that. That fast. And so that's that part where that kid is really learning, like, what are the limits? What are the limits here? What are the limits of someone else's engagement? What are the limits of my body? When is too much too much. And that's really important.
- [50:23]
A
Yeah. And I think, like, when I hear you say that and everything just reflecting on this entire conversation, because we're talking a lot about crying and a lot about tantrums in this conversation so far. A lot of things get easier in parenting as soon as we start. Stop making tantrums and crying bad and wrong. Coming back to what I said before about this idea of accepting the full spectrum of human emotions, as soon as we stop feeling like we failed or our kids have failed, if they're crying or they have a tantrum, and we just realize that it's part of the process. It's part of the emotional regulation, emotional resilience process, then things start getting a lot easier because we're not fighting against. Against crying and tantrums all the time.
- [51:07]
B
Yeah. It's so good. You know, it's interesting. I think about. This is what I'm thinking about when I read a book like this. And you're just so taken back. I want to hit one more topic before we wrap up. You're so. If you. If you're out of the Tyler stage, you're so taken back, and you're like, in time. You're taken back in time and you're like, oh, my goodness. I remember. I remember that. I remember having to deal with that all the time, and then all of a sudden, it just was something that you didn't have to deal with anymore. And I. And I am thinking now that we've got teens, that probably in a decade, it'll be the same thing. Like, I'll be reading back and being like, oh yeah, I remember that. You know that these developmental phases are phases. So I hope if you're listening and you're like in the middle of it, that gives you hope that some of these hard parts don't last forever. Learn how to deal with them from Devin's book. But you know, but they don't typically last forever. And also the beauty of the toddler years are so special. They're so special. And probably it's the same thing about the teens, right? It's so special. It's unique. It's a really unique, wonderful time in life when these kids are developing at such rapid rates, whether toddlerhood or teens. But the probably favorite part, Devin was the FAQs that had to deal with sharing because just took me so back to how tricky it can be. There's so many. This one in particular had so many questions and I was like, yeah, it is so hard to try and figure out. It's your first time going through this. You've got this kid. There is no manual until now you know of like, how do I deal with this situation? I want to read a couple of them. My child has a really hard time during play dates with other kids touching his favorite toys. What can we do to help him? My child took a toy and won't give it back. What should I do? I mean, everyone's been in that situation. You're like at your friend's house, you're not even that good of friends because you're trying to make friends and you're like, your kid's not going to give it back. Like I knew, like, I don't know what to do. Our baby is crawling now and touching my toddler's toys and knocking over towers. My toddler is getting so upset. How do I help them play together? My three year old is. It just shows. It's just so tricky. Like every day you're like, how do I deal with this? My 3 year old is always taking toys from the baby who recently turned one. They should know better by now, which is what you're talking about developmentally. Like, do we know? Like, should they know better by now? And I'm getting frustrated. How do I make it stop?
- [53:32]
A
How do I make it stop? This is like most and how many.
- [53:35]
B
Different types of situations there are with baby. One simple thing which is not simple but sharing. So can you talk about or give parents hope? Like, well, they can find the answers in your book first of all. But I just, I do think that it illustrates so well. This is hard to figure Out.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. When we're in the heat of the moment and there's so many heat of the moments throughout the day, it can be challenging. Especially now when you have, like, more than one child and you have siblings and you're managing these sibling dynamics. Or as you said, you're at a play date and you're trying to make mom friends and then you're wondering, oh, my gosh, are we going to be invited back? This is the scenario where actually you don't want your kid crying at the end at the play date because you're like, oh, my gosh. Well, maybe crying at the end, fine. But crying in the middle, you're like, am I going to be invited back?
- [54:26]
B
I don't know.
- [54:27]
A
Right. And so you just like, there's so much stress on the parent side. But I think, like, the point of this book was to really be able to give parents not just general, blanket information, but to give them specific tools for specific scenarios so you feel supported.365 all in all of the situations. But know that just because your child is struggling today, whether it's with sharing or they push someone down, push a friend down, or they, like, ran off with someone's toy, you know, this does not mean your child is mean, bad, rude, or going to grow up to be a bully or a horrible person. It means that your child is in a very egocentric developmental period called toddlerhood, and they're just trying to navigate it and try to understand who they are as a person and how to function in the world with very, very little life experience. And you guys, you're doing good. Your toddler is doing good. Everyone's doing their best in this moment, and it's not going to stay like this forever.
- [55:38]
B
Such a good reminder. And those just. I mean, you're like, oh, yeah, this situation, in that situation.
- [55:43]
A
Yes.
- [55:43]
B
One time we were at. I'm like, oh, gosh. I never know if I've told these stories before. When our oldest was like, one. I mean, one. Maybe not even, like, not walking. 10 months, 11 months, 12 months, you know, right around there. And you talk about how actually toddlerhood can start really young. Toddlerhood begins as early as nine months. It can, you know, and goes to the fifth birthday about. So this is a wider range maybe sometimes than people think, because we use that terrible twos phase phrase. So we're at this. It was called, like, mom Club. I think that's a thing. I think it's like a thing maybe around the country Or, I don't know. It was in Michigan Mom Club. And you join in the here and there. I think people would rotate, like this person's house and that person's house. Go make a friend. So we go to this house and our oldest, we only had one and he, we had the one. And he wanted a ball. Like someone had a ball at the house and some other kid wanted it and took it. It was something like that. Anyway, my little kid cried so hard that he threw up. He threw up, down. My shirt threw up. And then we had to leave. It's like, what is this? You know? And you're just like, these are such particular situations. But also there's like, most people are experiencing different types of things where they really want the toy but they can't have it, or somebody else really wants the toy. And. And actually, I remember someone talking about how your best playdates are really going to be the ones that are not inside.
- [57:12]
A
Yes. 10,000%. Especially in this age group from like ages 1 to 4. 10,000%. The best ones are going to be outside.
- [57:21]
B
Yes. There's no toys to fight over. I mean, exactly. Like someone wants a stick. Well, there's going to be lots of other options. There's not like I wanted that Barbie or I wanted that particular ball. So anyway, I just so appreciate, I so appreciate that you have taken the time to go through all of these frequently asked questions and to go through chapter by chapter, all of these types of situations. And you're talking about power struggles, you're talking about sleep. What about when kids interrupt you all the time? Siblings sharing, raising a helper, teaching the toddler how to help. Like you said, there's 45 different chapters of all the different types of things that you can find your answers for in this book called Transforming Toddlerhood. You also have workshops, and I'll make sure I'll put those in the show notes. You have a membership, you know, that is coming back around. So I'll put that in the show notes as well. I want to hit one last one because you said this is something that you get asked about all the time. And I can't remember what we did. Nail clipping.
- [58:22]
A
Yeah. I'm laughing right now because I have a child that we've really gone up and down, up and down with nail clippings.
- [58:31]
B
It's like such a big part. I don't really think we hardly did it. Yeah, you try and think like, well, what did they do when there was no nail clippers? Like, nail clippers are actually Pretty remarkable. It's like they're made out of steel and like it's like the certain, it's like bent a certain way so you can like easily clip. But those haven't always existed.
- [58:50]
A
Yeah, I think nail files, I think there's some type of like nail filing happening maybe with some type of like natural material or something if we like really trace that back. I mean not anthropologists, but I would like kind of guess something like that probably. And yeah, clipping nails can be really, really challenging. And the reason it can be so challenging is because it's such, such a sensitive area. So one time cutting the nail too short or one time nicking the skin can set like set a cascade of this is a bad, like a bad thing I don't want done anymore. Like it can make your toddler very, very resistant to it just to have one little negative moment with it. And so when it comes to any type of self care things, the more that we can really A take the pressure off, B try to do it at a time where our toddler is like well rested, not tired, not hungry. I think with nail clipping, having them try on us like either maybe not with the clippers but with like a nail file, letting them try to use a nail fil file themselves and then also modeling it like clip your parenting partner's nails. Show them you know what it's like to have to see someone else's nails getting clip clipped your own nails, model all of these things for them to make it more comfortable. And sometimes these things are better done with two people. So like say one parent is like reading a book to your child and the other parent is like clipping a nail. And guess what? If you can only clip one to two nails a day, that's better than zero nails. So don't feel like you have to do it all at the same time.
- [60:25]
B
There you go. There you go. Everything from tantrums to nail clipping. The book covers it all. It's called Transforming Toddlerhood. Your essential guide for ages 1 to 5. How to handle tantrums, end power struggles and raise resilient kids without losing your mind. Devin, thank you so much for being here.
- [60:41]
A
Thank you.
- [60:46]
B
And Doug, here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insur and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty, Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry, unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.