← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 603: Nature is a Time Capsule for Our Memories | Eryn Lynum, Rooted in Wonder
00:58:22
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- [00:01]
Aaron Lyum
This episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop online@marshalls.com welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
- [00:25]
Jenny Erich
My name is Jenny Erich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a guest on today that I've had her book for a while and we're just now connecting and I'm so excited that we're connecting. Aaron Lyum, welcome.
- [00:35]
Aaron Lyum
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
- [00:36]
Jenny Erich
Okay, I have your older book, but you have a newer book out and more books coming out. And you have an incredible podcast called the Nat Theo Podcast, Nature lessons rooted in the Bible. But the book I've read is your first book. It's called Rooted in wonder, Nurturing your family's faith through God's creation. And then you have a book out that came, that came out this year called the Nature of rest and devotionals and kids book that's coming out next year. And this is really near and dear to my heart, Aaron. Like, we talk a lot about how getting outside helps kids with their brains and it helps them with their eyesight and it helps them with their physical bodies and their social skills and it helps them emotionally, but it also helps them spiritually. Cuz I believe and you believe that God displayed so much of his wonder and so many of his principles through his creation. And so when we talk about kids who are not getting outside that much, they are getting less opportunity to be exposed to the amazingness of God and all of these principles. So can you talk about your backstory here? You are a master naturalist as well as having a degree in Bible studies, but you say you weren't like super interested in nature until your kids kind of rekindled that in you.
- [01:47]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
What's the story there?
- [01:49]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors, camping and hiking with my family. But somewhere along the line I really just lost that enamor with the outdoors. And I think that happened, happens to a lot of us as we get older. That wonder with being outside kind of tarnishes. And so that's where I was at. And then as our kids were getting older, we have four, our boys are now 14, 12 and 10 and our daughter is seven. And as they were getting older, coming into like elementary age, you know, as we took them outside, I saw this Profound connection, like this deeper level of something going on there. And I wanted to know what was going on, the spiritual connection. And so as we're spending more time outdoors as a family, I became more interested. And my degree is in biblical studies, and my passion is theology. And so I started thinking, okay, if Jesus and God used nature to teach all throughout the Bible, then why aren't we using that method? And so my mom, she had certified as a master naturalist, where she lives in Arkansas. And so I. I called her up one day and I said, tell me all about this. What. What is this thing that you did? And so I found a local program through our city and trained and certified through them. So a master naturalist is basically a nature teacher. And through this, I. I came to have a much deeper understanding of our local plants and animals and ecosystems here in Colorado. And then to be able to take that knowledge and turn it into lessons that I now use in my books and podcasts and teaching.
- [03:16]
Jenny Erich
What a thing to say. Jesus and God used nature. Yes, they did. And so as parents, it's important that we do, too. And that's the big miss, I think, you know, and there's the statistics about kids are on screens for four to seven hours, but they're outside for four to seven minutes. It's like, that really does affect their spiritual growth. So you talk about, like, getting as many outdoor hours as possible. You write, time with nature is a great advantage we can give our kids in every area of their health. And you have this set of verses in here. So you had gone to Utah to talk about that in the book. And we went to Utah. Maybe like, similar timeframe, I don't even know. But we got invited to go down this green river, which is in Moab, Utah, and you fly in this little prop plane, and then the plane lands, and then you spend five days floating down the river. We went with Moab Adventure center, and then you sleep on the side and you set up tent, and they have food, and it's pretty remarkable. But one of the things that stuck out to me, Erin, because we're over in Michigan, so it hadn't been out west much, and it's desert, right? So it's like just rocks and. But there were so many flourishing trees, like, right down by the river. I mean, just huge, you know, there's like, nothing. Nothing, Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.
- [04:29]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah.
- [04:29]
Jenny Erich
And then just huge trees, like, right down by the river. And every single time I saw one, it reminded me of these verses that you write in the book. And I think this is A really good example. So the verse is, blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord. He is like a tree planted by water that sends out it. That sends out it. Sometimes I'm like, how do I even have a podcast that sends out its roots by the stream and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green and it is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit. And then there's another one. Blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the wicked, nor stands in the of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither in all that he does, he prospers. So can you talk about how seeing that matters?
- [05:25]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. That trip was so profound for our family for so many reasons. But as we were in Utah, so we had visited Dinosaur Monument national park, which it's not the most popular national park. Not many people have been there. It's in the middle of nowhere in the high desert, and it spans between Utah and Colorado. And we went in October. And so everything was just sparse and dry. And it seemed like nothing was alive there except, like, some dried sagebrush and some lizards. But we're exploring, and it seems like this expanse of nothing. But the anomaly was wherever the river ran, there were these tall, majestic stands of cottonwood trees. And because it was October, their leaves were just shimmering golden. And so my son, he spoke up from the backseat. I think he was 10. No, he was 11 at that point. And he said, mom, I understand why the trees have to grow by the river. Their roots need the water. And that's when I shared that verse with him from Psalm 1. And now it's this picture. Like, I love that imagery that both of these scriptures give about not being afraid in the year of drought. We had actually taken that trip as a much needed respite. It was 2020, and so everything's strange. And then on top of everything, we had the largest wildfire in Colorado's written history, burning a few miles from our home. And so it had burnt for, at that point, I think it was two months. It went on to burn for three months, but we are just living with this choking smoke and ash and days that we can't even get outside. And so we felt the drought. And so to have that picture in his young mind, to know, like, I can be like that tree, thriving, not afraid of drought, knowing that I can prosper in everything as I root myself into the truth of God's word.
- [07:11]
Jenny Erich
That's powerful. It's powerful when your kids have the imagery, and there's so much of that in the Bible. So you talk about how there's two primary ways that God reveals himself. So you talk about through the scripture, but then you also talk about that there's natural revelation. And when you look at what God has made, and he even talks about that like his invisible attributes have been clearly perceived since secretion of the world. And there's the verse in Job, it says, ask the beasts, and they will teach you in the birds of the heavens. And they will tell you that nature, I mean, you say, like, look, if you only had a Bible, that would be enough, obviously, but that nature almost like rounds it out, or it just. It gives it a dip. A different depth completely of understanding.
- [07:53]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. When my husband and I met, we. We met in Bible college and we learned there that there are two main ways that God reveals Himself to us. The first, special revelation, that's his living and active word, the timeless, unchanging scriptures. And then there is his natural revelation, sometimes called general revelation. And that is how he reveals himself through nature. So think about if you're at an art museum, standing before a painting, and if you just walk by it, you probably don't notice a whole lot of detail in it. But the longer you stand there studying the brush strokes and the colors and the shapes and the dimensions, the more you're going to understand about the artist who made that painting. And the same is true with nature, that God's invisible attributes, his characteristics, are revealed through nature. So I believe he meant these two revelations of his scriptures and his creation to really harmonize and work together and complement one another.
- [08:46]
Jenny Erich
And you talk about how we have kind of separated creator from creation. And I interviewed this man named Andy Wilson who has these nature documentaries that are called the Riot in the Dance.
- [08:56]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, I had Gordon Wilson on my podcast as well. Their work is phenomenal.
- [09:01]
Jenny Erich
It's phenomenal. And the conversation was about, like, what you're talking about in terms of paintings. He was saying, you know, like, all these nature documentaries, they divorced the creator from the creation. And he said it was like, well, if you were to walk by a Rembrandt and be like, yeah, we found that in the garbage. You know, it's not. It's not giving homage. I don't even know that's word. You know, the. The Credit to the person who made it to the one who created it. So, you know, I like that you talk about that in this book. And for families that are wanting to pass on spiritual principles to their kids, nature is the classroom to do it. Creation is the way to do it. It's good for other things, too, but it's certainly good for passing along spiritual truths. So I want to hit this. This is like a super random topic, but we've never talked about this much on here. Aaron is indoor nature. So that's one of the things you talk about in the book. I. We've hardly talked about it, honestly. So you talk about the power of indoor nature and how you've been in different homes. You know, like, sometimes you're in an apartment and sometimes you're in a townhouse. Townhouse. You don't have a yard. Some people are on a farm. Like, people are in types of situations. You're in the city, you're in the country, you're like. But you can always bring nature in. And one of the things you talk about is just having a fish tank, which is so kind of random. But I was like, we've never talked about fish tanks. And you have, like, a long history with fish tanks since you're, like, 16.
- [10:23]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. This was a concept that. When I was writing the book, it just dawned on me. You know, we can't always get outside. And, like, it makes me think about the months that we spent with the wildfire around where we live, like, choking smoke, where they were telling you, like, do not go outside. You will get very ill. And then in extreme temperatures. My husband and I, we're both from the Midwest, in Wisconsin, and so we also know that some days are just downright too cold to go outside, or if you live in Arizona, too hot. And we try as best as we can, but what about those times that we can't get outside? Or if you live in a very urban environment. We spent three months in an apartment in a bad part of town in Kansas City, where I couldn't even take our young boys out on a walk because it was too dangerous. And so, for one, finding those pockets of nature, like, we got to know every little pocket of nature around Kansas City during our two years there. And we would just revisit them and get to know them so well. But then, yeah, bringing nature indoors. So we've done this through house plants that kind of got a little out of control at one point, and hanging bird feeders all around, like the windows of the house, so that we're always able to watch the birds as we're washing dishes, as we're eating breakfast together. And then, yeah, fish. I. When I was 16, a family friend, he ran a fish tank cleaning business. So he cared for freshwater and saltwater tanks all over our area of Wisconsin, and he was looking for an apprentice, and I really wanted to learn how to do this. And so for a whole summer, I worked with him, just learning how to care for fish tanks. Like, yeah, your. Your freshwater tetras and. And all of those in, like, your library tank. But also some of these tanks. Like, we had this house that we would go to that was basically a mansion, and this lady had massive saltwater tanks with, like, an eel and a poisonous lionfish. And so I'm learning, like, how to clean these tanks without getting hurt. Such a. Such an incredible experience. But when, as our kids are getting older, I really wanted to pass this along to them. And so getting them their own tanks, teaching them how to treat the water. One time, we had a Molly fish. The kids, one day, they ran into my office, and they're like, mom, the fish had a baby. And I'm thinking in my head, because I didn't know that fish could have live births at that point, I thought they all laid eggs. And so I'm like, no, it can't be that. And I go out, and sure enough, there's this, like, itty bitty black molly fish. And then the mama just keeps having babies. And so we had to go get, like, a fish nursery and set that up in the tank to separate them and keep them safe. And we raise these things. So all these different lessons that our kids have learned over the years. And, you know, I love that instead of a television in the center of our living room, we have a fish tank. And just the liveliness of it, the movements and the colors and the water, just such a reminder of life even when you're indoors.
- [13:17]
Jenny Erich
Gosh, Erin, that's brilliant. I've. No. I've never heard anybody talk about that. I mean, and of course, you think you're like, yeah, when you're a kid, you like to get the goldfish. And, like, maybe you have the one little bowl and get those little colored rocks that go at the bottom and, like, a little castle, but, like, to actually go in a little bit deeper if you're trying to bring nature in. So you talked about the house plant is your first one. I'm not good at house plants. But you're like, look, you got one.
- [13:41]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
You.
- [13:41]
Jenny Erich
It was a baby rubber plant. You were able to keep it alive. And then you're like bringing in more and more. And especially in the winter. You say when winter is heavy on your spirit, you're going to go outside a little bit more often, even if it feels too cold, just for a few minutes. But also you're going to make sure that nature is inside. Or okay, so then you say which. The raising, the giving birth to live young thing is wild. We saw a snake do it once and same thing. We were on a trail and we're like, this mother snake is giving birth right here. And I thought the same thing. I thought they only laid eggs. And so you just, I'm like, nature, God's creation is always full of surprises and like full of wonder and full of new things. Okay, so you said that there. No, the TV isn't the center place. It's the fish tank with live plants and creatures. And the hobby of fish keeping is disappearing. This is important, Aaron. Right? This is important. But then you said it's like gotten to a point where your husband's like, we have enough fish tanks.
- [14:42]
Aaron Lyum
And I'll tell you, Ginny, this is funny because I wrote this book a few years ago and he did, he got to this point where he's like, okay, limit fish tanks, one per child, one for the wife. And now we have three axolotl tanks. Like this has just grown and morphed where an axolotls need a lot more space. So we have like this, this, I think it's 45 gallon tank with our adult axolotl and then we have 20 gallon tanks with our baby axolotls. And it just like keeps going and morphing and changing.
- [15:12]
Jenny Erich
I, I love that. I love this concept of he had to limit the fish tanks one per person. There's one per person. He's not going to have one. But that's still five fish tanks.
- [15:22]
Aaron Lyum
That's still five fish tanks.
- [15:24]
Jenny Erich
And now the axolotls. But that has, that's remarkable, you know, to bring the nature in. I'm, I'm not super intentional about that. So that was inspiring to me and a reminder especially heading into the winter to like do a little bit better job. And I thought, gosh, well could we get a fish tank? Like probably like let's revive the hobby of fish keeping. I think our kids would think that's really cool.
- [15:46]
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- [19:36]
Jenny Erich
So I love that that was in the book and thank you for talking about it because we've never talked about it on the show. Okay. There's a lot in this book. I've got a lot of notes. I want to talk about something else we've never talked about. Like we've briefly talked about it but I feel like you verbalized it so well. So like something that I've thought about often is that these nature experiences that we have as a family so we're trying to get outside for these thousand hours and of course like it's good for their spiritual health and it's good for their emotional health and all of these things. But also we have these foundational pillars of memories in our family and the memories are really strong like to the point where if we ever return, especially like if it's a place out of town and we return six years later, sometimes the kids will even remember the conversations that we had when we were there the last time. It's like, so these memories are so strong. And you talk about like, I was. I've always just been like, oh, isn't that a cool thing? You know, it's like, well, there's a lot of sensory things that are going on. And so you remember. You're so specific in saying, well, God did that on purpose because people didn't always have an iPhone to snap photos.
- [20:41]
Aaron Lyum
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's so amazing when you even look at the science of it, that in our brain, our olfactory area. So, like, where we take in scents, where our brain is like, okay, this is what you're smelling. It's really close to the memory center. And some scientists have supposed, like, that that is one reason that smells do so well, to store and unlock memories. So, like, if I smell honeysuckle during the summer when I'm running on a trail, I remember sitting next to a honeysuckle bush in one of our previous homes and nursing our daughter when she was a newborn. And all of these things that, you know, even taste when we've gone foraging as a. There's these ground cherries here that are sublime. Like this time, like. Like August, September. And so they're in this little wrapper. They look like a tomatillo, and you unwrap em, and when they're ripe, they're like a orangey yellow color. And when they're warmed by the sunshine, that's the best. And they taste like a mix between acidic tomato and sweet pineapple. And so every time I taste those, when we're out hiking, I remember exactly the place on the exact trail that our family was first hiking when we learned how to forage. And so just giving our kids these experiences, using all of their senses while out in nature, that's going to really solidify and anchor those core memories.
- [21:58]
Jenny Erich
And you just talk about how God did that on purpose. That's, like, as dumb as it sounds. That's the part I've never considered. You say nature is a time capsule for our memories because it invites us into a magnificent arena for creating meaningful family connections and secures those. It secures those experiences within the reservoirs of our souls. We remember and experience more fully when we partake of it through all of our senses. The details are not lost or obscured. And then you said this. God wants us to remember. He's the one who made these memory triggers in our senses. And nature utilizes all of those senses.
- [22:35]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. Why would he want any of that to go to waste. Like, we're. We're putting in the effort to get these. A thousand hours to spend as much time as we can outdoors as a family and have these. These deep and profound experiences. Of course, he wouldn't want us to forget that. He would want our. All of those memories to really be a storehouse, this treasure trove of experiences that our kids are going to pull from as adults.
- [22:58]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. And so you can think back, right, Aaron, to, like, you know, when there were no cameras or there were no videotapes, and you can, I think, to a degree, envision the seasonality and how that would trigger memories and conversations, like, where a husband and wife would be like, oh, remember three years ago when the golden rod was there and, you know, little. Our little sweet baby was doing this or. Or whatever. It's. It's a remarkable thing to think about that God made it that way. What a gift.
- [23:30]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. Yeah. And to be intentional about it, because one thing I love doing when I guide hikes with children is we'll find a quiet spot on the trail and we'll sit and I'll tell them, this is really hard for elementary kids, but we're going to sit for two minutes with our eyes closed, and we're not going to do anything. And then afterwards, I tell them, okay, tell me what you smelled. Tell me what you heard. And it's amazing just hearing what these kids pick up on. But this takes intentionality. Like, one day I was. I was at a natural area with my boys. My daughter wasn't born yet, so the boys were quite young. And there was this picnic shelter, and there's this mama. It was a mama swallow, barn swallow. And she had a little nest there with her babies up under the roof, and she kept coming back to feed the babies. And so I'm, like, balancing up on this picnic table, holding up my phone, looking like a lunatic, and just, like, trying to, like, get this perfect picture of this mama swallow and her babies. And I'm all frustrated because my iPhone is not doing the job well. And my son, I think he was about 8 at the time, and he goes, mom, that's okay. This can just be a memory time.
- [24:35]
Jenny Erich
Your kids are so wise. There's, like, so many wise words in this book rooted in wonder from your.
- [24:39]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Kids.
- [24:41]
Aaron Lyum
But it's from being outside. Like, they get this vocabulary and this. This depth by just seeing the beauty of creation.
- [24:50]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. It can be a memory time. And it is it. Like, if you went back to that spot, you would be like, oh, Remember when there was the bird's nest here?
- [24:58]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Remember when we saw.
- [24:59]
Jenny Erich
Which is very different from the day to day indoor type things that happen over and over again. There isn't that distinctiveness to it. And I just thought that was a beautiful. I mean it's not even a reminder. I've like, I've never considered like the way that God made our memories to be associated with like the, the senses of the body was especially beneficial before people could take pictures of things. And, and in some ways is. It is a different. It's like a different level of power when it's just like it happens immediately. Like you smell the thing and it just happens. You don't have to be like, when Was that? On June 5th of 2022. I'm gonna scroll back through my photos. Yeah, it just comes to you. And it's a wonderful thing about getting kids outside. It's a reminder of how important that is then because you have this repository then of memories that you can draw from. You also talk about time. This is wild. Aaron, before the light bulb, people slept an average of 11 hours each night. Can you talk about time? You talk about time in terms of a couple things. You talk about time in terms of seasonal rhythms and daily rhythms, nature's rhythms basically. And then you also talk about time in terms of rest, which you have that new book out about rest as well, but you're talking about almost cheating time. That's not even a question. Can you go with it? What do you. What are your thoughts?
- [26:23]
Aaron Lyum
I can go with that. Yeah, let's talk about cheating time. It's funny because I use that term in the book, but I write it candidly because I say maybe going out into nature is like cheating time, but more accurately it's collaborating with time. Because I think we, all of us parents, we feel this tension of it's going so quickly. Like it can feel slow, of course, but it's really going so quickly. And spending time outdoors as a family is this way to use time to its fullest potential, I believe as God meant for us to spend it. And so yeah, that number about, you know, before the light bulb, sleeping an average of 11 hours a night and now it's down to seven. That was shared by John Mark Comer in the Ruthless. This elimination of hurry. And so really just historical advancements, technological advancements have changed our idea of what a day is. And so we have to get back to this natural rhythm. Think about the circadian rhythm. Circadian means around a day. And so with these advancements of the light bulb and being able to work at any hour of any day, we've really ballooned what a day can be. And so it's really coming back to nature's cues. And I talk about in the book becoming a collector of sunsets and sunrises and just letting little things like that really be a cue to step back into that natural rhythm and stop living at a pace that we were never meant to live at. And one way we can do that is just by being outdoors more. One of my favorite things we do as a family is set aside an entire day to go somewhere natural, wilderness, if we can, and lose sense of time. Like, I know we've achieved it when I have no idea what time it is and I don't care.
- [28:07]
Jenny Erich
And how often does that happen?
- [28:09]
Aaron Lyum
Not as often as I would want.
- [28:12]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. So, I mean, I would say like a handful of times a year, really. Like, if, you know, you don't have your phone with you or it's packed away in your bag and you don't have a watch on and you're just out in nature and you don't have anything else to do, it's probably very rare. What an interesting thing, Aaron, to have.
- [28:27]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
That be a goal.
- [28:28]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, we. I. Thankfully, it's becoming more and more common in our family, especially as we've. In my new book, I talk about Sabbath. And so we set aside a full day a week to rest and to not work. And so with that, we will often go to the wilderness. And so we've kind of built in these days. But I mean, starting smaller, putting a day on the calendar in the upcoming month where you're not going to let anything else be on the calendar and you're just going to go out. There's no reason to get home. There's nowhere else you have to be. Bring a lot of snacks, way more snacks than you think you're going to need. Bring art supplies, bring a ball. Like, really, you're not going to need much because if you. If you do it right and go to a place with a lot of materials, the kids are going to start making stick teepees and building a dam in the creek. Like their curiosity is going to lead them, but just allowing that time and don't let anything else be on the calendar that day.
- [29:21]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. So nothing you have to get to. You talk about how beyond the circadian rhythm, you talk about how this has reminded you that sometimes things don't wake up. Like sunrises don't wait and it's there for two and A half minutes. And if you miss it, that really special part of the sunset, if you.
- [29:41]
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Miss it, it's over.
- [29:42]
Jenny Erich
And you were talking about how so often kids are like, look at what I did or come, and how we can so often miss for the sake of productivity.
- [29:53]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, Yeah. I thought about this a few years ago. I got to see something really cool that now I find out when it's going to happen on the calendar every year. But it was a moonset where I was just up. It was like 5am or something like that. So it's still dark out because it was December in Colorado. And my husband got up and we're drinking coffee, and the moon is full and it is bright, and it's going down below the horizon. And my husband, who's like, it's going to go behind the mountains in a minute. And I was like, what? And then we couldn't even see, like, where sky ended and where the mountains began, but it did. Like, the moon was eclipsed by the mountain summit, and within, like, a minute and a half, it was gone. And so it was so by chance, so fortunate that we saw it. And now I love getting up because it only happens, like, a couple of times a season where you can actually see this because the moon's either at the wrong place during the rest of the year or the sun rises before the moon sets. And so it just taught me that in sunrises and sunsets, that, yeah, this is an opportunity that's not always going to be there. And the same when my children come to me, like, oh, can you come see this? Can you come see this? Like, their attention is going to move on to something else soon. So I can't. You know, how many times do I say, oh, one minute. Do I really mean a minute? It's pretty arbitrary because it's probably going to be a lot longer than a minute. And by the time I go, like, that opportunity is gone. This happened yesterday. There was a praying mantis on the side of our house. My kids know I love praying mantises. And so my. My son ran. He's like, come see this, Come see this. And I was really busy and in the middle of something, and so I was almost like, I can't right now. And then he's like, like, it's a praying mantis. I was like, I'm there, but let's heed those. Those invitations. Because when your child says, hey, come see this. They're inviting you into their world of wonder and curiosity. And we need that refreshment. We need Their sense of wonder to reignite ours.
- [31:45]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, it's like that nature gives God's creation. It gives these little reminders. That's a reminder of a natural process in life, that things are fleeting, that kids are only young once, that, you know, sometimes you miss it because you're just trying to get stuff done. And that two and a half minutes. Like it seems like such a short period of time. Right, Aaron?
- [32:06]
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- [32:06]
Jenny Erich
But that might be when the beautiful sunset is or the moon set or the sunrise. And it just. There's not an abundance of opportunities to see that type of thing, especially depending on where you live. Like, we're in Michigan, so, you know, a couple times a summer maybe we get over to Lake Michigan and there's these really cool sunsets on Lake Michigan. But often it's cloudy, you know, and so. And the kids are always like, this is stupid. Why do we have to stay for the sunset? But sometimes I'll say, look, because you know why?
- [32:36]
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It's.
- [32:36]
Jenny Erich
You only get to do it three times a year. So how many times in your whole life is that? I mean, that's it. You're gonna get to do it 90 times and you die, you know, or however many times you're gonna see it, you know, if you. Maybe once a summer or twice a summer. And so it's a reminder, right, that. Yeah. That things come and go and you don't have forever. And I love. That's biblical, right? To teach us to number our days.
- [32:59]
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Jenny Erich
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Jenny Erich
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Jenny Erich
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- [35:01]
Jenny Erich
You talk a lot about time in this book. We relate a lot with that. So you have a book called 936 Penny, talking about each week that we have with our kids from birth to 18. And then you talk about which we're really aligned on this. How much kids are on devices versus.
- [35:19]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
How much they're outside.
- [35:20]
Jenny Erich
So you did it in terms of weeks.
- [35:22]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah.
- [35:23]
Jenny Erich
In a childhood. 205 waking weeks. Waking.
- [35:27]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
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- [35:28]
Jenny Erich
205 waking weeks with the device. Four and a half weeks outside.
- [35:33]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah.
- [35:34]
Jenny Erich
Over the course of a childhood.
- [35:36]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. It's about 22% of their childhood spent with a device.
- [35:41]
Jenny Erich
Unbelievable. 22% of the childhood spent with the device. 205 weeks versus four and a half weeks. That's the difference. So can you talk about how you actually wrote about 1,000 hours outside in this one? And I love what you wrote. You said that the hours compound that they're far more valuable than the individual hours because they come. The. The dividends are exponential. Every hour, side effects, the hour after it and even before it. By changing our perspective and granting clarity, can you just talk about the, the way that we use our time? I mean, it is such a discrepancy where we're at such an imbalance, 22% of the childhood is going to the screen, and that's from 2017.
- [36:24]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
So it's probably low.
- [36:25]
Jenny Erich
It's probably higher than that right now. You talk about, you know, that these nature Pastimes are at a disadvantage, but that we still have a chance. And it really does come down to time.
- [36:36]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. In this chapter, I use the analogy of invasive plants. And so invasive plants being plants that don't belong where they are and they can really harm the ecosystem. And so you think about that idea of invasive plants, and we can really liken it to invasive pastimes that are not where they belong and not good for our children in excessive amounts. And so there's different correlations here. One is that invasive plants, they're a new introduction, really, in the past 150 years, plants were brought over from distant lands to bring beauty and like this exotic allure to these plants. Technology also is a recent introduction. Like, we are the first generation of parents navigating this scene. Like, how are we supposed to manage this with our children? And feeling sometimes like we have no idea what we're doing? So both are recent introductions. Secondly, both came with good intentions. Those plants were brought over because they were beautiful. Technology has great applications. We're using it right now for this conversation. We both use it in our work all the time, like all these great applications. But the third correlation is that left unchecked, they both get out of hand very quickly. Invasive plants, they take over a landscape because they don't have their natural predation to keep them at bay. So they just wipe out plants that actually belong there and take over the landscape. And the same is true with technology that if we're not careful, if we don't keep this in check, it's going to take over the landscape of our children's childhoods. But what I love is that it's not hopeless like here in Colorado. I've gotten to see and be a part of some projects where a habitat is restored to its natural health and it's little by little and it's over time. And so I challenge parents. You know, this doesn't have to be a complete overhaul right away. This is going to take time. It's going to take effort. Let's trade one hour a day of screen time for outdoor time. Let's start little and add more as we can and really restore the landscape of childhood.
- [38:40]
Jenny Erich
And remember that it compounds. It's not really just that single thing. It compounds over time. You end up with a child who loves to be outdoors, or you end.
- [38:49]
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Up with a child who loves to.
- [38:50]
Jenny Erich
Is fine to take risks, or you end up like, you end up with something that you really couldn't have ever anticipated. And there's power in that. And you say, I love this. You say, we can shift the trajectory. And this is really what it comes down to. We can shift the trajectory of what an average childhood looks like. And it all begins with how we choose to spend our time.
- [39:13]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah.
- [39:14]
Jenny Erich
And that's it. That's like the bottom line is, are 205 weeks gonna go to screened or maybe 100, maybe 100 weeks, like, just take half of them. If you take half of them, then 100 weeks are going to, you know, hands on real life living. That's it. Like, you can still have a hundred weeks of screens. That seems excessive, but, like, can you just. The imbalance is so stark. 200 hours versus four. I mean, it's, it's wild.
- [39:38]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
200 weeks.
- [39:39]
Jenny Erich
It's 200 weeks. Did I say that right? I don't know if I said it right. 200 weeks.
- [39:42]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Four weeks.
- [39:43]
Jenny Erich
So, you know, give a hundred weeks to that. Letting them play. They can still have 100 weeks of their childhood. That goes to video games. But, you know, it starts to change you and kids learn that they love it out there. So you say technology is always progressing, changing and pressuring us forward. There's always pressure to keep up, but nature is steadfast and beckons us back into time. With technology, we can never be current enough. But with nature, it just gives kids something steady that they can be dependent on. And it's. It's really powerful. You say a phone. I think this is a quote from somebody else, but a phone is like a childhood killer.
- [40:17]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, that's Arlene Pelicane. Yeah.
- [40:20]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [40:20]
Jenny Erich
There's a lot of pressure, but we can shift the trajectory. Every hour spent outside is worthwhile and God will put it to good use. So really powerful. Just a reminder. It's a time thing. At the end of the day, it's a time thing. Like, how are you going to use your time? How are you going to use the childhood that God has given your kids? Okay, how about this sentence? You talk about something quieter than silence. Tell us what you mean by that.
- [40:51]
Aaron Lyum
This came into my mind. So before I wrote this chapter, we were out exploring the wilderness as a family one day, and it had recently snowed. So we're out in the woods surrounded by ponderosa and lodgepole pine, and there's still snow, like, clinging to the pine needles. And I was listening and there's like, not a sound. Like, now that I think of it, my kids had to be, like, way far ahead because I didn't even hear, like, their snow boots crunching in the snow. No, I remember I had. I had actually gone off on my own a little bit because the kids are with my husband. And so, like, it's completely silent, and yet it's the fullest kind of silence, because then as I'm listening, I can hear a chickadee up in the tree. And I could actually hear, like, a little bit of the movement on the snow with the animals in the forest. And so it's this idea of this kind of quiet that nature offers us. It's far more than just getting rid of society's noise, which is important, but also it's this kind of quiet that settles our souls. Like. Like the psalmist talks about, I have calmed and quieted my soul. And when we go into nature, that's what God is inviting us into. And what a gift for our children in this noise that is so. Noise like this world that is so noisy and full of chaos and confusion. And God is saying, hey, come out and play. Have some quiet. Have some peace. And so I think that that's just one of the gifts that we can really give to our children is that sense of quiet that really you only get in nature.
- [42:28]
Jenny Erich
Isn't that so interesting? And I had read that snow absorbs sound.
- [42:33]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. Yeah. It's like an amphitheater. That's one of my favorite things is after a big snow, to go out in the wilderness, and it's. It's like everything's muffled, and yet it echoes some sounds. Like, you think about the bird and its little chirp and its song kind of bouncing off the. This, like the surfaces of the trees and then absorbed in the snow. It really is like this crazy amphitheater.
- [42:53]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. So one of the things then you talk about is exposing kids to that. And so it's an interesting thing, right, Aaron? Like, you know, kids are meant to romp around and they're running, and that's sort of like their natural thing.
- [43:04]
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Right.
- [43:05]
Jenny Erich
They're not really meant to be sitting at desks for a really long time. But despite that, they're, you know, in. Even so. Even so that they, you know, they love this running around. There is value in stillness. So can you talk about how you find that balance of. And I know you talked about it a little bit earlier, even just, like, can we take two minutes? But what should we sort of be instilling in our kids? What experiences should we be giving them so that, yeah, they can run around and romp and play and climb trees and climb over fences and roll in mud and do all of those things, but Also to have moments, sense of quiet, of still, of calm out in creation.
- [43:46]
Aaron Lyum
I think we can do this in doses like I talked about doing it. Just a couple of minutes. Okay, let's be quiet for a couple of minutes. Tell me what you heard, what you smelled like, what you sensed around you. But also you can stretch that. One of my favorite things that we've done as a family is a quiet hike. And we didn't even plan this. We just drove up to the wilderness one day and we all got out of the car and my husband, husband goes on to explain. He goes, this is going to be a quiet hike. I'm like, okay, let's see where he's going with this. And he explained to the kids, we are going to walk into the forest and we're not going to say a word. We're going to kind of space ourselves out so we can still see each other, but we need to use our hands to communicate and we need to listen to what's around us. And we got about a mile into the wilderness. And I had to like my two sons, I had to separate two of them at one point because they're like whispering, you know, we're like quiet, quiet. But I could hear like a flicker would pecker. I, I heard its wings. And then I saw it flying from tree to tree. And then we saw a rabbit running through the woods because we had heard it scampering. And then like my husband turned this into a whole orientation activity because after we got a mile in, he stopped him and then he started talking. He said, okay, now point to what direction the car is in. And this was hilarious because all of us pointed in different directions, like, don't leave us alone in the forest. And then my husband asked him, okay, what did we walk through on the way? And finally they got to, okay, we were in a meadow and it had, had. Okay, so if you find that meadow, you can find your way back to the road and then back to the car. And here's what to do if you ever get lost. But it all started with this experience of we're going to walk and we're going to be quiet and you can start smaller. Okay, we're going to, we're going to go on a hike and we're going to be quiet and not say a word until we get to that tree or that rock up there and just start stretching that self control ability in your child so that they can really be listening and sensing the things around them.
- [45:37]
Jenny Erich
What a great idea we do at Christmas. We try and do a nature, like, one nature activity every day in December, because, you know, December gets.
- [45:45]
Aaron Lyum
I love that.
- [45:46]
Jenny Erich
So we do this thing called sit spot, which I didn't make up. It's someone else's idea. But, like, that's kind of it. Like, you go sit in nature. It's for 15 minutes. It's too long. Like, listening to you say that, I'm like, I know. Because the kids are always like, do we have to do the sit spot now? I'm like, shoot, Aaron. I should have done it for, like, three minutes. Minutes. But they do remember it, and, you know, it does facilitate conversation. And it just puts you in a different spot, like, to, you know, where you're always just, like, engaging, and then all of a sudden, you're kind of like, you're. You're a part of it. Yeah, you become a part of that environment, and you become an observer of what's going around you. So it's really powerful. I love that you talk about that in the book. The book is called Rooted in Wonder, which came out a few years ago, but fantastic book. And then you have your podcast as well, and then the newest book, which is called the Nature of Rest, and you talk in this book about Sabbath and hibernation rooted in wonder. So there's a lot in there about rest, but then an additional book about rest, which is really important because obviously we're resting so much less four hours, less a day of sleep, plus less just restful things. But I'd love to talk about. About how science. This is the sentence science has long sought to explain away the rhyme and reason we see in nature. Oh, that's a really good sentence. The rhyme and reason. There is so much that we see in nature. Like, to me, I can't really wrap my head around being in a garden and seeing how the bees go in and out of the flowers and how perfectly that works. Then they'll sleep in them. You know, they'll take a little nap inside of your flower. And they got those little. Little sacks or those little things.
- [47:29]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, the pollen baskets.
- [47:30]
Jenny Erich
They're pollen baskets on the back of their.
- [47:32]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Whatever.
- [47:33]
Jenny Erich
I don't. You know more than I do or you know that someone was just telling me yesterday they're doing this bird unit for homeschool. And so the project was that they were learning about the different types of beaks. I'm like, I didn't know there was different types of beaks. And they were like, you know, they use the straw. And that's like the. That the hummingbird Has a tongue.
- [47:58]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. It's insane.
- [48:00]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, it's got a tongue. And. And so then it's like I guess flicking it out. What? But there was five different types of beaks. Maybe there's even more than that. But they were like using tongs and then something else and you're like, how could that possibly have come from nothing?
- [48:15]
Aaron Lyum
Right. There's even like the crossbill, the red billed crossbill, that its beak, the top and bottom are crossed over each other. Like it's crazy. And it uses it to open pine cones to get at the seeds inside the pine cones. Like crazy, right?
- [48:27]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. Perfectly paired. Like we just the other day we like our sunflowers are starting to droop and so we cut one down and we were saving the seeds and then our youngest daughter was like, well I want to try and roast these, like open them up and roast them and are like this is so perfect. It's so unbelievably perfect that there are that. That each of them is covered with a petal. Right. Like so they're, they're all flowers, right?
- [48:51]
Aaron Lyum
Isn't it like anyway, it's a composite flower. It's actually hundreds to thousands of flowers. When you're holding one sunflower.
- [48:57]
Jenny Erich
One sunflower, yeah. And then all of those, you brush them off and then it's got all of these seeds and that. And she even was saying like how. Well this is, this is what we did. So we planted corn this year and it's like the malt, it's called, called Glass Gem or something. And all of the kernels are different colors. That's like purples and blues and pinks and oranges. Am I? Yeah.
- [49:21]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
It's our youngest, we've got a daughter.
- [49:22]
Jenny Erich
Too as the youngest and she goes how, she goes, how did these colors get here? She said they were. Yeah, it's like they were painted on. That's what she said. And then she was like. And how she was like. And speaking of that, how do all the colors get on the flowers? She's like, they just start as a seed. So to have all that DNA for it to grow into these plants, I just think you can't. That's my opinion. I'm like, how could you explain that? As that came from nothing.
- [49:49]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you think about hibernating animals and I love talking about hibernating animals cuz bears don't actually hibernate. They, what they do is called carnivore lethargy or easier, you can call it denning. So they go into a den and they take a long nap, but they actually wake up and like the mama bears have babies during that time. And the reason they are not considered true hibernators is because their body temperature does not drop enough. True hibernating animals are small mammals that go through these different physiological processes. As they prepare to rest, their heart rate is going to drop dramatically. The woodchuck, I think it's. Its heart beats about one to two times a minute during hibernation. Right? Crazy. And then their breathing is going to slow down dramatically, Their temperature drops, Their metabolism slows down. And so these four different, very dramatic physiological changes. If you only had one piece of those, these animals could not hibernate, and they would die. And so you see all this sophistication and this design. Like, even think about the bees you were talking about. Have you ever heard of their waggle dance?
- [50:59]
Jenny Erich
I have, but tell us.
- [51:01]
Aaron Lyum
Okay. This thinks. I just love the name of it. Like, I can't say without laughing. The waggle dance. What these bees do is the forager bees who are in charge of going out and finding the nectar and the pollen that the hive needs. When they come back to the hive, they have to somehow communicate to their hive members where the flower patch is. So they do this waggle dance, which is a figure 8 flight pattern, and it communicates to the other bees. Scientists believe three things. What direction the flowers in the. How far away they are. That's a whole nother discussion about how bees gauge distance from what is around them and their flying speed. They actually measure distance. And then third, what quality of nectar they have found. And so this intricate movement. And I use this in the new book the Nature of Rest, to talk about, like, if the bee's too tired, it can't do that dance. Right. And this dance is so intricate, so detailed to communicate all of these things that are necessary for the hive's survival, like, all the detail, all the intelligence behind that.
- [52:01]
Jenny Erich
Yes. It's so powerful. And I think to your point of getting kids outside, even as an adult, it's such a reminder of how perfectly this all works. Like, how could a predator, prey relationship. Or a fact that, like, there's finches flying in my garden because they're going to eat some of the sunflower seeds. Like, I just can't at all. Even if it's been. Even if someone's like, it's been billions of years. I'm like, no, it works too well together. Like, everything is cohesive for it to have happened by chance. So can you talk about that like just sort of the. I mean, that's a foundational truth, right? Which is like, where did we come from? And can you talk about how getting kids out into creation really helps them to learn? We're here for a purpose.
- [52:52]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. This has been huge for my own scientific understanding and faith. For a long time I was afraid to dig into this topic. I was raised in a Christian home, taught that God created everything. And I thought, man, if I really dig into like the concept of evolution and am I gonna find out that everything I was taught was wrong and the opposite was, was exactly true. And as I was digging in not only from the faith based side, but reading secular scientists and work, my faith became so much stronger as my scientific understanding was growing. And I've seen this with my kids as well as they're seeing the gaps in these series. Like you talk about the billions of years. My kids and I were listening to a podcast once, a kid science podcast on plants. And the host, she, I turned this into a teaching moment because she went into like a really basic explanation of chemical evolution. And she said, the plants, we all had a common ancestor with the plants. It began as a single cell organism that absorbed another cell. They became two. And she said, over billions and billions of years, they might have developed into something new. And then over billions and billions of years, they might have developed into something else. And so I paused it and I asked my kids, I was like, what do you notice here? And my son, he goes, that was a lot of might haves. And so when you have this time frame that they like, keep even pressing back more in time, your mind is more willing to accept a theory as a fact, because who knows what have might happened in that time. This is called historical science, where scientists are using what they see now to make interpretations and guesses about what might have happened in the past. And when you really look at it like an excellent book I read on this was by Stephen C. Meyer, Darwin's Doubt. You see from secular science that the concept of evolution is actually scientifically and mathematically impossible. And even how Darwin presented it, Darwin said, you know, we would have to find these fossils and we'd have to find this and that for this to be true. And to this day we haven't. And so I always wonder, like, what would Darwin think now with the advances that we've made? And even him, this is fascinating. In his autobiography that he wrote after the Origin of Species, after coming up with the concept of Darwinian evolution, he wrote that when he looked at the immense universe, including man. With his intellectual capacity to look into the past and into the future, he was compelled to see a quote. This is in capture first cause. And at the end of that, he says, and I deserve to be called a theist. Darwin, he saw the details. He trained under William Paley, a natural theologian. And so he actually was very well versed in this idea of intelligent design and intelligence and nature. And at the end of it all, after the Origin of Species, he saw a cap's first cause and called himself a theist.
- [55:42]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Wow.
- [55:43]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. I mean, the. I love that you talked about your kid because there's several quotes in there from your children. I'm like, gosh, they've got a lot of wisdom. The one of them said, I like nature because it works well. Yeah. He was 4 when he said that. Oh, my goodness. And it does that. Like, that's a way better way of me communicating. That's like, kind of what I was trying to communicate.
- [56:03]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Right.
- [56:03]
Jenny Erich
I'm like, well, how. Like the. How is it that the bees need the flowers, you know, and these pollinators and how everything grows and, I mean, and it's just remarkable. And you talking this about the designers and the engineers and the architects, like, they're using God's creation as inspiration, as inspiration to. To figure out all of these things in their fields like, they're using. You talked about the aerodynamics of a kingfisher's beak and a gecko's sticky feet, and wind turbine blades are modeled after the ark and curve of a humpback whale's fin. And you talk about Velcro and they. They're trying to copy these designs that are God's designs. And you're like, how could they have come from nothing?
- [56:47]
Aaron Lyum
Right. Yeah. That's fascinating. This whole field of. It's called bio inspiration and a connected field of biomimetics, and it's engineers, inventors, looking at designs in nature and using them to invent and solve human problems. Because, like, how they're seeing the intelligence, whether or not they say it, they're seeing the complexity in the order and the reason.
- [57:10]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, yeah. So much power here. What an incredible book. I didn't even get to half my notes. You talk about how nature is the greatest classroom. Nature lifts us out of a creative rut. Nature helps us remember our place in the world. You have just great information about identifying birds and mammals and insects and flowers and other plants and how important that can be for kids and for your family, all the different things that they can Learn Sabbath is in there. You packed a lot in, Aaron.
- [57:35]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah, there's a lot in there. I mean, God was. God was teaching me a whole lot about creation and theology, like, in that season. And it was just the seed. Like, just the seed at the beginning. Yeah.
- [57:46]
Jenny Erich
Yes. So nature is an active practice. Time in nature is an active practice of continually turning our attention to God. It's important. It's important for your family. It's important for your kids. So what an honor to get a chance to talk with you about this one. Rooted in wonder, nurturing your family's faith through God's creation, you also have the nature of rest. And people can learn more in on your podcast. And you've got new books coming out in 2026, which is super exciting. Aaron. I'm so glad that we have finally connected. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [58:19]
Aaron Lyum
Oh, there's so many. Can I connect it to a favorite memory from recently? Time to go. Yes. Okay. Okay. So my dad has always been enamored by the night sky, and he passed that on to me and my older brother and sister. And so many times in my childhood growing up in Wisconsin, he and my mom would wake us up to go see a meteorite shower or a lightning storm or the aurora borealis. And recently, my parents came for a visit to stay for three weeks here in Colorado with us. And we were staying out on the back deck one night, and the kids had gone to bed. So just my husband and I are sitting with my parents. And my dad goes, oh, good, it's a clear sky. There's a meteorite shower tonight. And I was like, what? Like, he just, like, knows these things. And so, sure enough, five minutes later, this bright, massive meteorite just streaks across the sky. And so we go get the kids up, and they come up and they all just lay down on the deck facing the sky. And for the next 20 minutes, like, it was full circle to where I'm with my. My parents, who did this with us as kids. Everybody were sharing it with my kids, like, three generations just watching this meteorite shower. It was profound.
- [59:30]
Jenny Erich
Wow. And isn't that powerful? That creation captures all of the generations. I've got a picture. It's one of my favorites, because sometimes we'll bring in and people judge this, but sometimes we'll bring in, like, monarchs. So we'll bring in, like, the eggs or the little caterpillars, and then they hatch anyway. People will judge me, but no, we do too.
- [59:51]
Aaron Lyum
And it's actually better for the them. They have a better chance of survival because they get parasitized. Par. Par. That's a hard one. Par. They get parasites outside.
- [60:00]
Jenny Erich
Okay, okay. Well, this is good to know. I will let people know. So, you know, it's like, they're just so beautiful. First of all, the chrysalis is so beautiful for the monarchs and it's pretty easy to find the eggs and then you feed them and it's like remarkable. And then they're in that chrysalis for the couple weeks and. And then you know what, you can see the wings.
- [60:18]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Wings.
- [60:18]
Jenny Erich
It starts to get that clear. Look. You can see the wings through it. Anyway, I've got a picture of three generations of family, jaws dropped as the butterfly is emerging. And they've seen it before, you know, it wasn't the first time they'd seen it before, but it is. It's just jaw dropping. And I. It's so simple. It's really so ordinary. Which is what I was thinking about when you were talking about in the book I'm taking notes about. You were talking about the quail eggs hatching.
- [60:44]
Aaron Lyum
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [60:46]
Jenny Erich
And you said, we're entranced by the wonder of new life. It's so ordinary. Aaron, in egg hatching into a bird, how many times does that happen in the course of the world? I mean, billions, trillions, I don't know. So many eggs have hatched, you know, since the beginning of time, you know, all, all over the world. And yet it's so wonder filled. Same with a. A caterpillar hatching into a butterfly, you know, or moth or. I mean it's happened so many times and every single time it's just awe inspiring. So what an incredible thing that God took these simple, everyday, ordinary things and made them so powerful and embedded all these spiritual lessons in them. So. I love the book. This was a great conversation and I'm so thankful that you took the hour to be with us today.
- [61:32]
Aaron Lyum
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.
- [61:38]
Jenny Erich
Limu emu. And Doug, here we have the limu.
- [61:42]
Aaron Lyum
Emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.
- [61:52]
Jenny Erich
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [61:55]
Ad Host / Sponsor Voice
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [61:58]
Aaron Lyum
Cut the camera.
- [61:59]
Jenny Erich
They see us.
- [62:00]
Aaron Lyum
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- [62:07]
Jenny Erich
Excludes Massachusetts.
- [62:09]
Aaron Lyum
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