← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 606: Love No Matter How the Story May End | Peter Mutabazi, Love Does Not Conquer All
00:58:56
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- [00:01]
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- [00:29]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
- [00:32]
Co-host or Advertiser Voice (Ginny Urich)
My name is Ginny Urich.
- [00:33]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have a guest today that I have personally been a fan of for so long. He is an adoptive dad, a foster dad of so many children. You share so much hope and also wisdom on the Internet. And then you wrote these incredible books. The first one is called Now I Am Known. How a Street Kid Turned Foster Dad Found Acceptance and True Worth. And the newest one that came out this year is called Love Does Not Conquer all and other Surprising Lessons I Learned as a foster dad to more than 40 kids. Peter Mutabazi, welcome.
- [01:07]
Peter Mutabazi
Thank you for having me. TR A joy to be with you today.
- [01:10]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
I am honored and I just really, truly enjoyed your books so much. They're so powerful and there's so many lessons to be learned. I'm sure that people would love your stuff, know your story. Your story is a really hard one. A really, really hard one. You're a street kid. You grow up with an abusive father. You're out on the streets, and it is amazing how life can change you. I've just done this incredible life transformation from this really hard childhood to where you are now. It's a long story, obviously, going back to when you were a little kid. But what are some of. When you share with people, what are some of the highlights that you share?
- [01:51]
Peter Mutabazi
Well, absolutely, yes. You know, I come from a small little village in Uganda. My dad is from Rwanda and my mom is from Uganda. So coming from two different countries, you speak different languages, So I speak seven languages, but I grew up poor, poor of the poorest. You know, poor to the point that, you know, if a mother cannot feed you for the night, how does she teach dream? So, you know, I grew up in a place where no one told me to dream. You know, this poverty is all we knew when to fetch water three to four miles away. You know, we had to grow crops because we can only grow what we e. That's it, you know, so that was my life. I met at age of Four. I realized that my father was different, abusive in every way shape for me you could imagine, not just to me, but to my mother as well. So at the age of 10, I thought, look, this man is going to kill me. Why? Giving him the opportunity and me running away wasn't like I was looking for a future. It was more of I'm going to die anyway. I would rather die in the hands of a stranger than my own father. So I became a street kid. And at the age of 10 and at almost 15, I met a stranger who saw the best in me when I didn't even know I had anything good in me. And he changed my life by putting me in school. And that really, really changed my entire life through a kindness of a stranger who saw the best in me, who didn't see a thief, who didn't see a smelling teenager, but saw a little boy with potential. And he invested in me.
- [03:10]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
And this was James? Yes, yes. And so you say this was kind of like foster care in a way. They didn't call it that in Uganda, but that it's kind of like foster care and that you are almost a part of his family too.
- [03:24]
Peter Mutabazi
Once I went to school and I was there for three months, then he introduced me to his family, you know, and that's really what maybe changed life for me. Because now I saw what a family looked like, I saw what a dad looks like. I saw a family that unites and doesn't yell, doesn't fight each other. And that gave me a way of look, now I can see what a family looks like. So I'm going to excel in school so one day I can have a family like his. And that's really what changed my life and gave me the zeal to do better. Because I saw what good family looks.
- [03:52]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Like, what a powerful thing. So James steps in and you go to school, you do a really good job, you excel and then you go from school, then you go to, in England, so you go to school there.
- [04:04]
Peter Mutabazi
So I go, yeah. So I go to high school in Uganda and then I go university Uganda and then I get a scholarship to go study in England and then from England then I got another scholarship to come and study in the United States. So that's how I came to the US again through schooling. But that started by a stranger who, who really saw the best in me.
- [04:23]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
So then you do that and then you end up with a, in a job where you're traveling, you're flying, you say you basically lived in the air, right? You're Traveling from place to place. You're hardly at your house. You're renting it out because you're hardly home and you're flying and you're helping with an organization that's helping kids that are also in these poverty situations, hopeless, often situations like you were. So you did that for a really long time. And you. It. It's. It kind of funny how you write about it. You're out fighting for children, but you're also kind of like, you know, I'm going to try and stay away from them in the airplanes or like, the interaction with actual individual children, you weren't having as much. So can you talk about that time in your life? And then what changed?
- [05:07]
Peter Mutabazi
Right. So for me, I was working for charities that was really helping kids in more than 30 countries. So I would travel, go see the kids, be the. Be with the kids and play, but also get to see the difference that we're making. But when it came to my personal life, I was like, no, you know, I just need a. I'm already doing it over there. You know, I don't. I don't want to hang out with kids. I don't want to bring them in my home in any way. Shape form. That's what I thought. But I think he had come from a. From a background where as a male, I think I was told, like, I'm not good enough to be a parent, you know, And I believe that lie, like, well, okay, I can only help from afar, but there's no way I can bring them in. Until one day I met an American friend who was. I was traveling with. And as we're sitting on the car, he's just so, so excited about his family. He's like, man, we just had a baby, and I'm excited and I can't wait to go back home. So he shows me the picture. I was like, wait a minute, you're white, this baby's black. How does genetic work? You know? He said, no, these are kids in false care. And I said, what is false care? And he goes to explain to me what that was. And in the moment, I knew, like, this is my calling. This is a place I want to be. Because I felt like the kids in false care are exactly who I was as a little boy. Unwanted, unloved, and always felt like I didn't belong. So in some way, that really made sense for me, and I wanted to come back and make a difference. But also, I knew as a male, I'm not sure they will allow me. So that's really what changed for me was like, I would like to do this, but I had never seen a person who was adopting from Uganda or Ethiopia. They were always Caucasian and married and it was none of that. So I thought, there's no way. So I didn't give up. But I just said, you know, I'll just mentor teenagers. Maybe they can allow me to mentor teenagers. So my going to four scale was, hey, can you allow me to mentor teenagers? And that's how I got a shock of my life that I was able to be a false parent.
- [06:57]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Wow. I mean, you give so much hope, so much wisdom. So inspiring. I, like I said, I mean, I was a fan for a long time and occasionally we'll get an email that says so and so has a new book. Would you be interested in interviewing? I'm like, yes, I'm already such a big fan. So you make a huge career shift then, Peter, I would love for you to give some insight on that. You think, okay, now I'm going to be able to foster. But it wasn't just something that you added into the life that you already had. You made a huge change. You moved states, so you move to Oklahoma. It's a little cheaper cost of living there. And you completely changed your entire career in order to make this work. Can you talk about the bravery there and the conviction? And it's not like you just started and kind of kept your life the same. You completely upended the entire way you were doing life in order to become a foster parent.
- [07:57]
Peter Mutabazi
Absolutely. You know, I had lived a selfish world. You know, I'm by myself, I can travel anywhere I wanted. You know, I can do whatever I wanted with no one saying, where are you going? Where are you? And for me, I knew being a foster parent like that I could not survive within that kind of of place. Also, I knew I could not do eight to five job because I knew me being a foster dad, I needed to be fully involved. Like I knew there wasn't something I can do, you know, for six hours, eight hours a day. Like I knew this can consume my everyday life in every way, shape form you can imagine. So for me, I moved to Oklahoma because it was cheap. But also too, I did real estate because it would give me the opportunity to be a dad without anyone having to hold me back. I knew I can walk away from the site. I knew I can order things without being, you know, the place and be delivered to where they needed to be. And so for me, that gave me an opportunity to say, I can be a foster dad. Because I knew it needed more than just being a parent. I knew my kids would need therapy. I knew my kids, you know, sometimes, you know, things would happen at school and I wanted to show up for my kids. So I looked for a job that would give me that opportunity to be fully apparent in every way, shape, form you can imagine, but also that I can put whatever I'm doing in that moment if my child needed me, that I would be there. So moving and quitting my job was the best way that I knew I can fully be a false parent without having to feel that I was not. Like, I wasn't enjoying what I was doing. I love what I did. But for me, I was sold to truly be a false parent. And I wanted to give it all, like, not just 80%, but all of myself.
- [09:34]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Was that such a hard transition? People don't like change. Change is difficult. So to move states and to completely change careers. So you're flying and you're speaking, you know, like you said, you live in the air and now you're flipping houses. You started for a contractor rehabbing rental houses. That also led you to start flipping houses. That's a huge career change. How did you have the confidence to do that? I don't know.
- [09:59]
Peter Mutabazi
For me, I, I, it was one of those, like, I had to be in 100%, you know, I had never been a parent, so it wasn't something like I can try and walk away from. Like, I wanted to give it up all of myself, you know. Yes, it was scary, you know, and remember, I was 41 by the time I, I started fostering. So I had lived selfishly, like I just could do anything I wanted. So this portion of my life that I really wanted to matter, like, I really, you know, and also, I think growing up from a family where my father was never there, the only time I saw him was either yelling at me or abusing me. So for me, I just wanted to truly, fully be present. And it was scary, for sure. Like, it was truly scary because it was a life I had never lived before. You know, I lived a life of pursuing things that I wanted to do, jobs that I wanted to do, travel. I've been to 120 countries. So for me, I had not, Like, I had done it all, but I felt like I had done all that. But at the end of the day, there was just something missing, and that was being a dad. And I wanted to just give it all and be a dad and then enjoy it in a way without having to feel that there Was something holding me, a job or anything, that I was fully there and I gave it all.
- [11:12]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
It is remarkable, Peter, and so inspiring, so inspiring to completely have that huge career change, moving to a cheaper state, trading cars because you're gonna have to have room for the kids and all of these changes that you make. And it's a really powerful story because when your first child comes into your home and he's a five year old little boy, you have this perception and I think that this is something that you do such a great job explaining in your book. Love does not conquer all, that you're going to provide what you didn't have. You're going to provide stability. You're not going to yell, you know, you're going to do things differently than your dad did. There's going to be enough food. You would talk about how you would have one meal every other day. Your mother would work hard so that you could have one meal every other day. You say you're going to do it differently. And yet some of the children don't respond in the way that you might think they would. And you do a great job. I mean, you are the person to write the book because you relate it to your own experiences growing up. Can you explain why I love and providing those stability pieces and the things that, you know, that you would think this is what these children need. Why it doesn't always work, I guess, right off of the. Especially right off the bat.
- [12:28]
Peter Mutabazi
Absolutely. I think for me, living in an American culture, I had to learn the fantasy. The movies you watch, there's always the happy ending. There's a fairy tale, you know, romance. We are not as romantic as you. You know, you meet a girl, you're over the moon, you do the good things because at the end of the day you're hoping for the best or the best thing in the outcome in whatever you're doing. If it's marriage or it's romance or it's job you're saving. Like everything is geared to one point to be happy. All the happiness is on the way, you know. So for me, I realized that full scare, yes, that's what I wanted. That's the journey that I really wanted to take, that I was really absolutely excited about. But that wasn't the intention for the child. That child did have the same feeling or was the same place as I was. I was happy to be a dad on the other end. My child hated where they moved them. So it was like the opposite, you know, because remember, they move them from home to home. No one tell them where they're going to go. They love mom and dad no matter what. So they are bringing them to this stranger. I don't know any human speaking that you can just walk up in someone's home and say this is where God wants me and I'm gonna be happy now, you know. So I was battling between the two. The preparedness, the joy of what I'd given up to be a dad. Did not equate the response. The response for my child, like I learned that quickly, like, oh yes, I signed up for this, yes, I sacrificed my life to be do this. But my child that I'm having did not, did not to choose, did not choose to come to my home. Did not just come to false care. So my doing good to them, they responded in a negative way, you know, and that really helped me really quickly. Like, hey Peter, it's not the fairy tale we are talking about. It's not the marriage, the romance we are talking about. Like this is really hard place, you know, like really being there for children who are in some way ended up in my home that didn't want to be in, you know, ended up with a parent that they asked for, you know. And that really helped me to shift my expectations. So my expectation quickly had to change to say, wait a minute, you know, this was my dream, I gave it all. But it does not equate the response I get or the attitude I get from the kids that I get to be dad to. And that truly helped me to keep my expectation to myself rather than project to my children. Like I knew, wait a minute, you know, my expectation of a happy family and an awesome dad, that is my, my expectation. But I cannot project to my child. And that quickly helped me to know love does not conquer a lot. Just me loving was not enough. Not in. Not even the closest sense. In some way. The quicker I learned that it was sacrifice, it was the pain, it was dealing with someone who didn't even understand why I was there. But also that I needed to understand my role in a way that was fitting to the child, not feeling to me as a parent.
- [15:31]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
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- [15:35]
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- [19:24]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
It's a phenomenal book. You have wisdom for any parent. But then at the end of each chapter, you also have specifics for foster parents and adoptive parents. And you explain all of these different things. You talk about how you chose the life and you had a lot of preparation to do. So you talk about all the books that you've read. You take these courses and you get your home ready and you have all of these preparedness things that happen and the child has none. They have zero, you write. They have exactly zero preparation before they are thrown into the foster care system. They're not offered classes on how to survive it that the adults had time to prepare, but the children are thrown into it. And often they come from chaos and that feels normal to them. And so maybe if they come into a home that has routines and it just, it just feels so often you. You liken it to an alien abduction. So you talk about how most people who become foster Parents give up their license within the first year. And this is part of the reason why, that. That there is this maybe misconception that if you just do these couple things, it will be a smooth transition for the child. But, you know, you're very clear about saying they don't trust. You know, they may not trust you, and they love their parents and they really want to be back with their parents, and they're hoping to go back, and they're so torn. So you do. It's just a wonderful book with wisdom for all, for all adults, for anyone who works with children. And then you give specifics and relate it to your own experience as a child as well. You talked about how it took you until your 20s, your mid-20s, maybe mid to late 20s, to really trust that anyone who did something kind for you was really doing it with good intentions.
- [21:10]
Peter Mutabazi
Right? Absolutely. You know, it takes time to heal. It takes also time to overcome trauma. Yes, I have overcome my trauma. But does that mean you went away? No, but I've learned how to control it and how to sit and say, that's not true, you know, or, you know, hearing my kids, my teenagers, yelling me and call me every name that reminds me of the names my father used to. To call me, you know, but in those moments to say, look, my kids are angry, My kids are feeling something. And that has nothing to do with my father. That has nothing to do with me. You know, to remind myself, like, Peter, this moment is. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing about you that is causing this, but this is about your children. So remove yourself and be there for the child. And that, for me, has truly helped me understand those moments, understand even biological parents. You have your kids, you're raising a certain way, and now you're raising a child, your child, who's, you know, born in a different, different culture, different dad. And sometimes I think we get frustrated when we teach them things or we show them things, but they do the opposite. And the reason I found out was because we project. We have an internal standard of how things should go, and we project to our children. And when our children don't respond, we are kind of like this. Why can't they listen to me? You know, what's wrong with them? But rather by saying, wait a minute, can I step backward and say, but what's causing me feel this way? Like me, Peter, right now, what's causing me feel this way? And if I can actually touch it, feel it, and be able to name it, it helps me to make sure that actually I don't want to bring this attitude of me into my parenting style to my children. And for me, that helped me to stay close to always remember. I'll give you an example. I come from a world where the only way to survive is education. The only way to survive in life is education. I have three degrees. I have done all you could think to get that coming to United States, having a child, and said, I don't want to go to school. It's like, wait, what, are you kidding me? But I quickly come to learn. Like, wait a minute. That is how I was raised. That's the expectation, that's the emphasis we put on education. That is me as an African, that I cannot really project to my child. I'm not saying they are not. They're not good enough at school, but sometimes, I don't know, God has other tools for them to do that is not schooling, you know. And so for me, one, I feel angry. Two, I feel like I failed them. Three, I felt like it was the only way, but I was wrong, you know, that I realized that that was my projection towards my children. I got to love them as who they are rather than who I want want them to be. And that then helped me be a better parent, but also helped me to always check myself like, Peter, where are you going? Why are you saying this? Why are you feeling this way? And knowing it was me, it helped me to adjust because it was me that I had to deal with, not my child. And that really helped me be the best parent I can be.
- [24:14]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
It's remarkable to grow up and to be a street kid in Uganda and to have escaped your father's abuse and still long for a relationship with your father, still love your father and to be able to be in a situation where you're fostering children and adopting children and not reacting like your own father. So one of the things you talk about in this book, love does not conquer all, is that you have to grow. And it's an opportunity for growth. Anytime we're dealing with children, there's an opportunity for growth, which is a beautiful thing, but it is really hard to grow. And so you talk about different situations, like hoarding food is an example. And you related, you know, you said, even when you went to the boarding school, it took you a good year plus before you really felt confident that every single day you were going to get your meals. And so the kids come to your home and they'll hoard food. And then sometimes that's causing other problems. There's Ants in their room. You know, these are the things that happen. Right. And so you talk about how your father would have responded. He would have yelled, he would have been abusive. And you don't really have any other modeling necessarily for dealing with it a different way. But you were so creative. You would come up with, you know, you put snacks in a basket on the stairs. You would say, if the food starts walking up to the room, would you please tell me, Just kind of light hearted, playful, you know, some kids like that kind of stuff. How did you grow in such remarkable ways?
- [25:45]
Peter Mutabazi
Well, absolutely, yes. So I, I had to grow. I had to learn that my upbringing, you know, and my nature on how I view the world. And also I'm mature enough to be able to, to reason in some way, lose logic. But my kids don't, you know, and I knew I had to be at their level in order to understand that. Like I had to really come down in a way that I knew, knew I can meet them at their levels. But it needed me to look back myself and say, okay, what things do I need to grow? What things do I need to learn? You know, one thing I had to learn was these kids did not choose to come to my home. So I should not expect a thank you or somehow thank you for saving me. Like, no, I did not save them. You know, the other part was to honor where they come from. Like to know where they come from is their part of life. And I will always find a way of how to connecting that as well. But also that came with trauma as well. Like that trauma they came with. It had nothing to do with me or how I parented. But I knew I had to create like in my head, I had to create a way to say, look, my job is not take away the trauma of my child. My job is to create an environment that they will help the child overcome that at their own time when they can not. My timetable, hey, it has to be tomorrow, you know, you know, like hoarding food or lying or having some behaviors like you, you know, I knew it had take forever, not forever, but for a long while to get there. And I needed to be prepared rather than set my expectation like in a year, we should have overcome this. I said, no, what I'm going to do is really create a house and a place where my kids feel so. Because that's how this man took me in. I was a thief. I had no boundaries at all, you know, but they didn't put a timetable to say, peter, you need to stop stealing by the Time. You're six months with us. No, you know, it was crazy. Sometimes I'll steal something and they would give me the extra of what I stole. I was like, what's wrong with these people? I just took something, but they gave me something extra. And that's the kind of empathy I wanted to have towards my children. To truly not put a timetable, but create an environment where we can say, okay, like that food holding. I knew, you know, it cannot be overcome overnight. But along the way, we're going to find ways on how we can truly help my children do so. And it's a dance that you have to do every day. You know, it's not like a one week and then you go back. No, it's every day you wake up, you say, lord, I don't know why the trauma is going to show, but I want to be prepared to be there for my child. Like I want to be prepared to truly be there for my children in whatever way. You know, that means I cannot treat yesterday like I treat today. You know, that means what my child did yesterday, I cannot bring it back the next day. Because that isn't helping. That's really good, letting them know, like, you know what, you'll never get good or you'll never be better or you'll never overcome. Because what they did last week, you brought it today. And to the child's, like, I thought we moved on. But that means you don't trust me, but that means you don't forget. And so they give up on really trusting or working hard because you show them you do not forgive in some way. So for me, I had to grow every day to know that, yes, my childhood did this last week, last month, but today I want to look at it as a new day, you know, not bringing to the past, but a new day. And for me, that truly helped me to learn and grow every day. As I said, it's not every day I had to show up as a different dad as my kids were growing as well. And that truly helped me to be there for my children, but also to help them. The other part I had to do was to learn how to learn how to see the small little things as the biggest win, you know, Then in that way, I'm able to see the progress of my child because I can see the little wins that I'm coming over. And for me, those are the ones that have helped me maybe stay in the course, but also see the progress. It wasn't the grade A they got. No, it was the one shoe they put on because they didn't want to put on a shoe just so everyone can be laid. And then the next time was the two shoes that they put on. To me, those were better to praise and those to celebrate because it helped me see my child progress. And I think as parents, sometimes we go to the big one that we miss out of the process of how they are getting there, because we are not looking at. We're not celebrating the wings of the little ones. And for me, that has helped him to see progress because I'm seeing it in small, little increments.
- [30:17]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
In a way, I loved that part of the book you talked about. I have this part bolded, and it's in red to celebrate the small wins. Because you were talking about at the very beginning especially, you know, you get this first child in your home, and you thought, okay, he's gonna go to school from 8 to 3, and I'm gonna go work on flipping this house. And then you get called into the school. So you said, for a while, you're spending more time at the school than on the job sites, just trying to help him, you know, to deal with adjusting to the school and this situation. And you wrote, of all the lessons my children have taught me, this is a really big sentence and statement of all the lessons. Because this is a book about lessons. This is a book about surprising lessons that you've learned. Of all the lessons, none has been better at reducing my stress level as a dad than celebrating small wins. And so you would say it was like, well, for a while, five days out of the week, you know, I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna help this young boy in helping with his schooling and his adjustment. And then you said, well, you know, a month later, it's only four times a week.
- [31:23]
Peter Mutabazi
The win.
- [31:25]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
It's a win is a win. I. And you just talk about the expectations. You know that the expectations can make things really difficult. And if you are. If you can allow yourself to grow alongside of them, that will really help you out in any type of parenting situation that you're in. How about remaining calm? So this is one of the things that I think is really hard for parents, and especially if you grew up with an abusive parent or a parent that yelled a lot. You don't have this experience of remaining calm. You said, if I could keep control of myself, I could find a solution. The calmer I stay, the better things turn out. You learn to stop reacting no matter what they do. How did you learn how to remain calm?
- [32:10]
Peter Mutabazi
Well, I Had to remove myself. Remember, our kids know our triggers. Our kids know what button to push. So they. They just. It's like a game sometimes for them. Like, they just know, I'm gonna push you this way, and I know you're gonna react, you know? So for me, it was really not giving them that opportunity to say, I know you know my buttons, and you can push them, but I'm gonna choose to not let you put me in that place, you know? And that really helped me to remove myself. Like, when my kids are doing things, I'll be honest, sometimes my kids are putting holes in my wall. In those moments, yes, I can be angry. Oh, gosh, it's gonna cost me so much money. How can you be disrespectful? I mean, how. I can go on and on. But for me, I learned to remove myself in those moments to say, you know, Peter, my teenager for the first time is show not is letting his emotions out. And the best way I can do is I'm going to listen and I'm going to remove myself, because the names he's calling me so I can. I'm sure he wants me to respond in some way, but he's the one feeling that way. I am not feeling that way. So I cannot respond the same way that I'm going to stay positive and listen as he goes through his episodes at some point, you know, and for me, that is what it has do to up to me, Peter. Like, I have two things, like, in my head, always ringing, peter, it's not about you. Peter, it's not about you. Peter, it's not about it. And that really, it reminds me, peter, don't put yourself in the. In what my child is going through, because that I am not my child, you know, But I want to be a parent. And in those moments, I'm thinking more of a parent. Like, oh, poor thing. Like, I can't believe what he's going through. And at the end of the day, usually, I'll even give you what I usually I offer to my kids when, after they put holes in my wall, this what we do. I always let them go. And after, say, I know what you're feeling. Is it okay if we can go for your favorite ice cream? Is it okay? You know, and they always say yes while they're crying. We say yes. We go get that ice cream, and we pass by the Hobble lobby and pick up a plaque we're going to put on top of that wall, you know, all to cover it. But here's for Me my thinking point. My child is going through a difficult time. For me to yell and want an answer why he's doing so is absolutely useless. Because in the state they're in, they're not gonna listen. One thing I said, like, I don't. I don't think they would remember one word I said during the episode. So by me saying, I'm gonna wait until I get my child back at a level where me and him understand, then we can have that conversation. But for now, I'm gonna just put aside but just so I can give him and help him calm down to where we can reason. And it might take 24 hours, but it doesn't happen right then. Then, like, I know we're gonna talk about this, but for now, I'm gonna focus on helping them calm down so we can have a decent time to chat. So for me, those are the things that helped me to. To stay calm. You know, when I don't put myself in that position to say, peter, again, these kids are going through and has nothing to do with me. Has nothing to do with me. But for me, I'm going to show up as a parent. You know, it's hard when you're biting your tongue or you're like, oh, dear, I could do something bad. But for me in those moments to say, peter, it's not about you. And for me, that phrase always helps me. Peter, it's not about you. Peter, it's not about you. And helps me to step aside and let my child do whatever they're going through, but give them an opportunity to be hardened and seen. For you and I, you know, when we have an argument, we can have a conversation because we both understand, we both mature at the same level. Like, you can hear me, but for my kid, no. When they flip that switch, you know, when they go in the freeze mode, whatever they're saying or doing, most of them don't make sense to them, you know, or to me as well. For me to be drowned into that is unfair to the child because I'm expecting things that, humanly speaking, they are not able to articulate or be able to respond in those moments. But by removing myself, it helps me stay calm but also not making about. About me.
- [36:25]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Was it surprising to you that it worked? Because here you come out of a situation where your dad would yell and you would say you could hear it in your mind, you know, this kid just lied to me. You would say, how'd the food get there? And they would say, I don't know. You know, so they lied and. And maybe then the food's getting wasted. So you do this calm approach. And I would imagine now you have so many experiences to draw from that if you wait, you know, you give it 24 hours, you go get the ice cream, you get the thing at Hobby Lobby to cover the wall, you're like, it really works. Were you surprised the sort of the first couple times you're using this with. With your children, that there are other ways, right?
- [37:07]
Peter Mutabazi
So the family that took me in, remember, I had no boundaries, so they always responded by the opposite, you know. And that for me made me angry because I was like, I was expecting for a fight. Like, sometimes that's what I was looking for, like, hey, I want to fight today. So. And they would respond for the other was like, man, you. You didn't respond, you know, but it worked, you know, because for me, I would always say, but why so kind? Why didn't he yell at me? Why didn't he take away the privileges? But rather how did he. Why did he respond with kindness, you know, so the, the anger came to. Now the reason that why, like, why did he do so? You know, and the more he did, the more I realized that I was fighting about myself I didn't trust. So that's how I respond. But too sometimes I feel like I'm not good enough. So I'll respond in a way that I feel like, let me show you I'm not good enough. Up. But he never. Or the family didn't respond that way. So for me, those are the tactics that I use when became a false parents. I was like, okay, you know, I'll respond. But in other words, for me, here's what they taught me. Show love at their lowest, you know, like. And that's hard for us to do as parents when your child is being mean to show love and equal to their lowest end, you know. And that for me has worked to know that I'm going to be there, I'm going to show them the more love I could ever do when they are at their lowest. And not like it's worked overnight, but somehow it really does work. When a child expected the worst, but you get to see them as human being, you know, when a child has all their lives have grown being told, never mind anything, you're nothing. So sabotage, whatever you can do. When I don't do what they expect him to do, they pause to say, but why? Why did he not respond that way? And for me, I feel that that's the best way to my Children and be to talk where. When they are in the what that why didn't you do that? You know, and for me to say because I love you, not because I care for you, because I used to do that and somehow didn't get me anywhere but for me for saying I want to see you as the best you can, but also validate your feelings like I know you're hiding, you know, but that response won't help us, won't help you either in a way. But I'm at a level where they are, are able to listen and able to reason as well. And I think as parents we always want for them to hear us at the time when they cannot hear us, that it's going through there, you know, over. And we're like, but why don't you listen, you disrespectful you. And they're like, what? Well, excuse me, you know, I'm mad at you. And for me to step back and say, you know, I want to reason with my child, that's how someone did for me, saw the best in me at my lowest. And I do the same for my children. How can I parent them and show up for them at their lowest in some way?
- [40:04]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Wow. It's very powerful and very, very inspiring. The book is wonderful.
- [40:10]
Co-host or Advertiser Voice (Ginny Urich)
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Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
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- [42:12]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Well, and you talk about, and, and when you're talking about that type of a situation, one of the things that you talk about is really always asking why. So you say you go into research scientist mode and gather as much information as you can about them, that you learn to listen to them, what's going on in their everyday life. And you gave this really powerful example of when a child threw their bike away. So you say, you know, we all battle these knee jerk reactions, but if we really can go into research scientist mode and ask why, sometimes we can really gain a lot of insight. So you talked about this bike and the child throws the bike away. You get them a bike, you know, they're excited about it, they want a bike, and then you find it in the garbage and they're like, well, why did you put the bike in the garbage? I want to read it. So you buy the bike. Okay. It's not easy because watching a child sabotage their own life can make me lose my mind. I keep those feelings to myself and instead ask a question like, I noticed you threw the bike I got for you into the trash. May I ask why you trashed it? I didn't want it. My child will say, I understand that, and believe me, that's okay with me. But I also noticed that when you came to live with me, you really watched all the other kids on their bikes and mentioned wanting one for yourself. What made you change your mind? I just did. Okay, that's okay. But here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna take the bike out of the trash and keep in the garage. If you ever change your mind, it is there for you. If you don't, that's okay. The bike will be there if you want it. I won't change my mind. I don't want a bike. I don't even know how to ride one. At that point, my child reveals exactly why they threw their bike away. No one had ever taught them to ride one. They would rather throw the bike away than admit that. And so then you say, you offer them help to ride, and usually they accept it. You say, I buy a bike for every child who comes into my home. And then you offer on. On their own terms to teach them or for them to use it if they want to. But you. So that this sort of, gosh, that's such good parenting, Peter. I just don't think that we do that too much with children like that. It makes me emotional.
- [44:20]
Co-host or Advertiser Voice (Ginny Urich)
Right.
- [44:20]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Like the asking why the research scientist mode. Can you explain how that helped in your home and how that could help any family, any parent that's listening in?
- [44:30]
Peter Mutabazi
Absolutely. I think when we parents with empathy, it changes how we parent. When you have empathy towards something or someone, did you parent different? So I'll give you an example of another kid. I got another kid. I think he's in the book as well. So he goes to the bathroom and he. He poops and he picks up all the poop and smears it in the entire bathroom. You know, in those moments, one, I was angry. Two, I was thinking, the cost to clean, like that is just not, you know, but also too, I knew I wasn't equipped to parent each kid. So I was like, I am. There's no way I can have this kid. Like, I'm not just equipped. I don't have the resource to do so. So in my head, I was about to call the social worker. I was like, I need to call the social work to pick up this kid. I've had this kid for 20, 24 hours. But before I called the social worker, I wanted him to clean up so we can, you know, kind of get him out of the bathroom so we clean up. And then I didn't respond. So I give him a little something to eat. And I said, you know, hey, why do you do what you did? You know? And the kid looked at me and said, well, because I knew you're going to touch me, and I still want you to touch me. So in those moments, I looked at the smartest human being I've ever met. In those moments, that kid was so, so smart at age of 6 to be able to protect themselves. But if I make myself dirty, you Will not touch me. You know, I mean, I cry like a baby after that because it had nothing to do with dirt. It had nothing to do with me, but because I took a little time back and said, but why? Because he was sexually abused, so he thought I was going to do the same. So for me, the empathy. I mean, I didn't call it social work, definitely, but the empathy, like, I just. Like, who? Like, why would someone do this to this little boy? You know? So then I went back and said, okay, I'm gonna find another way to really help you, to help your little mind to tell you yourself. So we went through every door. I said, every door has a lock. So before you go to the bathroom, I'll walk with you. So we can lock everybody, every door we can find. Because in his mind, it wasn't about. It wasn't safe. It was for him to know no one would come. So for me, I figured out if he can help me lock the doors, that tells his little mind to say, I'm safe. So we did that. You know, every time he went to the bus, he's like, I want to go to the bar. Can we lock the doors? So we locked the doors, and that's all he needed, you know? So I moved from I don't want this kid to. I want to be there for this kid as much as I can. Because of the empathy, I understood why he did what he did, but I took the time to know the why, you know? And I think as parents, yes, it's hard to see the behaviors and say, dang, this kid is just not again. Not again, you know? But I think sometimes when we step back and say, wait a minute. I just want to know the reason why, you know? And that, for me, helped me on how best I can. His tactic was, I'll use dirt to stay to keep you away from me. So for me, I had to find another way to say, what other way can I help your little brain to say, I'm secure. Locking the door, every door in the house was the best tool I could find. You know, after six months, we didn't have to lock the doors, but I walked with him. Every time he wanted to go, he would say, can we lock the doors? And we'll do so. And that empathy, I think, helped me love him more and help him overcome what we're going through, because I asked the why. And I think parents, even for you, who birth kids every day, and, you know, you know your kids so well, and sometimes times they do something out of space I think sometimes it's better to say stop, you know, stop and kind of put back yourself and say, but why? Why? You know, I know in United States we have so families that are share from custody, you know, divorce families. It's, it's easy to always look at the other parents and say that parent, what are they doing to my child? Why are they attending my child? Because I see the behaviors changing, but rather sometimes to say, you know, know what? I'm not going to blame anyone, but I'm going to step back to understand why my child does what he does, you know, and then we'll get to address the why. But we got understand we have to step back and ask the why. And I think that is empathy. When we parents with empathy and to get empathy we have to understand that why we get to be the best parents we can be to our kids and help them overcome whatever they're going through, because we are empathy.
- [48:58]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
You had another example in the book where the child had a blanket and it was like a stinky blanket, you know, and so everyone's like, well let's wash it. And, and the child doesn't want to wash it. And I think, you know, from a logical perspective, like, well, why wouldn't you want to watch wash your stinky blanket? We can just throw in the washing machine. And he said it smelled like home, you know, so the asking why just such a powerful thing. You talk about what's normal for them. Normal. Normal is food that comes from a box. Some of these kids have seen worse than the worst we can imagine. Not just once, but over and over until it was completely normal for their lives. No one protected them or tried to protect their innocence. As children, they've not only seen the worst, but the worst is their normal. One of the saddest parts of fostering is working with children who had their innocence wrapped from them. And then you're having to parent them and love them when they're normal is, is very different from what the majority of other people's normal is. And so I just think that's such a wonderful parenting advice. It's four, you know, more than 40 kids that you fostered and all these surprising lessons that you've learned as a foster dad and you talk about being a research scientist and really trying to understand why and that for the foster kids, some of them are self sabotaging because that's all they know. So talk about always ask why. Parent a child for who they are, not for who you want them to be. Don't let Their behavior dictate your behavior. Can you talk about saying goodbye? You had that such a powerful statement about your first foster child that you had. And usually the goal is reunification, and you gave the percentages of how often that happens. Or sometimes they. They get adopted, or sometimes they end up going to a different foster situation. Sometimes there's guardianship. So there's a lot of goodbyes. And what was such a. It was such a powerful sentence, Peter, because you said it was one of your hardest days of your life up to that point. And you had a really hard life. You had a hard life. And so to say, the day that you say goodbye to this foster child is one of the hardest days of your life up until that point is a really powerful statement. And you say, you sign up, we sign up for the goodbyes. And even though maybe you think you're prepared, it's still really hard. The long term statistics are often not that good. And this is maybe one of the reasons why people wouldn't do foster care is because they're scared of the goodbyes. Can you talk about what you've learned and what advice do you have for that?
- [51:38]
Peter Mutabazi
Absolutely. You know, oh, man, it's. It's the hardest because when your parents, your parents day and night, if you go to your bed, you. You think about your kids. You give. Like your life revolves about these kids. Like, literally, there's nothing you do that isn't about your children. You drive. You're like, how long does it take me to get back so I can pick up my children? You know, that is what your world really thinks and lives in. It's all you get to do. And to wake up one day and they say, hey, this kid will live in a week. Or sometimes they give you 10 days or something, they give you two days. Like your life was revolved about this child, but for some reason, that it's going to be yanked away from 100 to 0, humanly speaking, is really, really difficult, you know, because you love these children. You've seen progress, you've done all you could, and you see the future. You can touch it somehow. But along the way, you get to realize that you are powerless, that there's nothing you can do to stop it, and there's nothing you can do at all. And that is the most helpless way to feel so low, to the point where you feel like, why even do this? Like, what is the point of doing this if I have no control? But also I get to see progress. But I. Someone else makes a decision when that, that should be changed, you know. And that was really, really difficult for me to do. But again, I think I've come to. To make it better by. By learning. So is my take. I live in a suburbia, you know, we have. My kids have everything they need, everything they need. But sometimes I feel like I was projecting my life that the parents of my children should have the same life. Does that make sense? So in my head I thought my kids live well, they have tutors, whatever they need, they get it, you know, that is best for them, you know, and anything less is not good, you know, in other words, I was projecting my own life that that's what their bio parents should have. That was wrong. You know, that was actually wrong. The once I learned that, hey, this mom was ordained to be the mom for this kid. And I'll do the best for what I signed up for. To go back home. Yes, it's difficult, yes, it's hard. But I'm going to be attached to this child. But I'm going to find a way on how to bridge the gap so mom can have their kids back. And in my saying goodbye, it's not a goodbye forever, but it's a goodbye for now that I still want to be the uncle to these kids once they go back home. But two to value the hard work the mother did. There's no mom that gives a birth to a child so they can go into false care for them to overcome the standards, the requirements parents. It's a hard job. And for me to truly come alongside, to rejoice, but also to support the parents to say you've done a good work and yes, you can take your child. Yes, your life is different than what I have. So I should not measure my day to day life on how I live my life. That somehow that's what I should have. No. You know, but to remember I grew up poor. My mom could not afford me for. Could not feed me for one day. But he raised me for 10 years, you know, and he. She did the best she can. The same attitude that I got to give to this mom. You know, you live in a single mobile home that has holes in it. But I'm gonna trust that you're the mother. And along the way you're gonna find way and I'm gonna be your cheerleader. Not your hater, not your. But your cheerleader on the other side to say I'm here to cheer you up when you run out of time, just send them to me. When you need a break, send them to me. I'LL take care of those kids, you know, and that has eased the things for me to look at them and say, yes, it's the right thing to do. Difficult in every way shape form, I can tell you, but in some way to come alongside and to remember that I'm forcing a child, but I'm really actually fostering the whole family, you know, so to see those blessings of the mom and rejoice with the mom, but also see that whatever they have overcome, that it is possible for my kids as well. And in so doing the easiest the goodbyes, but it doesn't take away the pain of goodbye, but it's worth it.
- [55:56]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
You talk about how they love their parents. They love their parents and want to be back with them no matter what. You talk about how they'll go to visitation and they'll say, I know she's going to quit using drugs just for me, you know, that they. They so desperately want to be back with their bio parents.
- [56:11]
Peter Mutabazi
I.
- [56:11]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
You wrote the vast majority did not choose to leave their bio parents. The state made that decision for them. If it were up to our kids, most would say they never wanted to be separated from their parents. Even those who know they needed to be removed for their own safety hope they hope to go back someday. They are literally torn between the home and life they have with us. And they're longing to be back with their parents, even if the latter is a much worse living situation. And you said you still have your own father. You chose to escape his abuse, yet you still feel the longing in your heart for a real relationship with him. So yeah, those things do really help. What did you sign up for? You know, you're signing up to foster the family and that's really powerful. And then you talk about how being pulled from your home is just one more round of trauma for the children. So remembering that and you say the kids would be better off with me, by what standard? Just because they are poor or. Or a different situation does not make them unfit. It's a really powerful book. It's a phenomenally written. There's a lot to learn. No matter the situation that you're in as a parent or if you're fostering or if you've adopted a child, you're doing guardianship. I had the honor of talking to this man named Dr. Bruce Perry, who writes a lot about childhood trauma. And he was talking about this foster mom who would. And you touched on this in your book and I thought it was really important. This foster mom who for maybe a child, let's say that was 6 years old or something still needed to be rocked. You know, they would feel better if they were rocked in a chair or maybe they just needed their back rubbed. And you kind of would think oh they're a little bit old for that. But you talked about this in your book too about just the developmental stages and you say well they may be 15 or 16 years old physically, emotionally they still may be only 11 or 12. Often a child will play with toys below their age almost as away of regaining the part of childhood that was stolen from them. I am not surprised when a 15 year old girl plays with Barbies, hangs on to stuffed animals or loves on a doll like a much younger child. This is part of the healing process. I thought that was really powerful too that there are these developmental stages that sometimes kids miss. And a powerful thing that you can do in that situation is to allow them to maybe go back and do some of those things as part of their healing. Even if it seems like they're too old.
- [58:34]
Peter Mutabazi
Right. Or they get stunted to when they were so they, they were 12 and they removed away. So that removal just made them never move away from where they left up. So they are, they're stuck in that age of 12 and below because that trauma took off all the other, you know and for us to help them heal from 12, not from 16, you know, but from 12. And in that way we get to really, you know, love on them and, and just see that the, the strides they are making along the way, you know, and, and as a male that was a hard one, you know that you have a kid who's you know, 17 but still gravitates something of you know, 12 year old you're like huh, why? You know. But boy that empathy when you realize that yeah they took away that and in some way you're still longing for the child in you that but you didn't know, you didn't get to celebrate. You didn't really to grow over that. You're still there in a way.
- [59:29]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Yeah, yeah. Peter, these are such powerful books and I'm so thrilled that I got a chance to talk with you. They are called Now I Am known. How a Street Kid turned Foster Dad Found Acceptance and True Worth. And the second one came out earlier this year. Love Does Not Conquer all and other surprising lessons I learned as a foster dad to more than 40 kids. I know you had a really hard childhood. You talked about how you grew up on the the streets. You hardly even knew the other kids names that grew up on the streets with you because you had to put up these walls. But I always end the podcast with the same question and so curious what you're going to say. We always end a podcast with a question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outdoors? Do you feel like you have one?
- [60:10]
Peter Mutabazi
Yes. So we had to go fetch water three to four miles away. So we could only be kids while we are fetching water. So would meet the kids in the village. So then once we are at the, at the the street, you know, I would get water, stream or a little place we would play soccer for a little while. So I remember those are the moments that I really, really remember the child moments where you are kid form moments, you know, that you met other kids and you put what you're fetching water with on the side and you played a SOCA for a moment. And for me though, you know, I, I don't know, it just makes me happy that that for moments would find time to be just little boys, little kids and a joy in the midst of that that we found joy and celebrate our little lives.
- [60:55]
Host (Founder of 1000 Hours Outside)
Peter, thank you for inspiring us. I, I followed you on Instagram before I read your books and it was just always inspired by, you know, you, you're doing it different. You're doing it different than how you were raised and different than how a lot of us parent, which is not parenting with knee jerk reactions and really being creative and loving the kids in the way that they need to be loved in order to help them transition through these really hard times. And so it's just such an honor. I was so excited to get a chance to talk with you. Thank you so much for being here.
- [61:24]
Peter Mutabazi
Well, thank you for making other kids seen harder known as a joy that you get to use your platform to truly help parents be the best parents they can be. And I'm learning every day for sure. Sure. So thank you. By the way, you are the best interviewers I've. I do this literally, I do this, I don't know, weekly, you know, but you're one of the best. Like I love how you do research and you're asking from the material that you have. Some haven't read the book, they ask you questions, you're like, wait, what? But I love the format you have. Like, it really shows. You put an effort. It's just. But also you general with people that they go find the material where it is. You're not just talking to me, but you're guiding them through of our material. So thank you thank you. And keep doing this really makes me feel seen as well, so thank you.