← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich, and Diana Hill is back. The last time you were on, it was the three of us. It was me, you, and Katie Bowman. Katie. I said that, right?
- [00:11]
B
Yeah, Katie Bowman.
- [00:12]
A
Yeah, Katie Bowman. I know another person named Bowman. So then I was like, am I missing it? Am I missing it? No, I'm not Katie Bowman. I talk about her all the time. I'm like, she's my favorite biomechanist. So. Welcome back, Diana.
- [00:23]
B
Thank you. I'm so glad to be back. You put me to work last time and asking me really hard questions, applying to your exercise. I'm like, oh, boy, she's gonna work me again. So I'm ready for you.
- [00:33]
A
I'm thrilled they're here. The other book is called I Know I Need to Exercise, but. And it was all these excuses. And I mean, it was. It was a really thought provoking book that you wrote with Katie. And then I was like, gosh, I should be asking Katie to write a book together. But I thought that was an incredible thing that you did. I actually, I just read your book. It's called Wise Effort. It just came out, so it's available where people can get it. And I had never heard of this act. And. And that's how you say. People say it, right? Act. But people say ACT therapy.
- [00:59]
B
Yeah. Well, you're already ahead of the game by knowing that because it kind of shows your card that you haven't done your homework if you call it act. So, yes, it's act, a one word. And it's a kind of a new, modern, high integrity approach to, you know, living out your values. It has a lot of behavioral science in it, but then a lot of sort of like that sort of deep wisdom, values based orientation. And I love act. It's what was behind the book that I wrote with Katie in terms terms of my psychological orientation. But it's getting more and more popular these days. ACT is being applied to, like, chess players and parenting and all sorts of things. Yeah.
- [01:40]
A
Isn't that interesting when there's something that you've never heard of? Like, so you. So you're a psychologist, a clinical psychologist, a speaker, an ACT expert. I'm like, oh, gosh. I'm like, behind that. I'm like, I'm running behind here because I've never heard about it. Helping people direct their energy toward what matters most, which is, I think, is such an important thing. You have your own podcast and all sorts of programs that you offer. So I'll make sure I put all those links in the show.
- [02:02]
C
Notes, notes.
- [02:03]
A
But you talk in this book about being. And I want to talk about act, too, because I would imagine maybe there's other people who haven't heard about. Heard about it, but you talk about being. I thought this was like a really amazing phrase, psychologically flexible. I was like, oh, gosh, I don't know if I'm that. But really tying it all back to energy. Like, you can feel. You sure can feel people's energy, like in the room or. I mean, for me, I'm really like, if someone is negative, oh, God, it's like, really dragging me down. But even though we feel energy every day, right. We're like, experiencing other people's energy. We're dealing with our own energy. Am I tired this morning? Am I dragging? I don't think we talk about it enough.
- [02:46]
B
No, I don't think we talk about it enough. And then we also talk about. I think most people, when they feel drained and depleted, they think I just need to rest. Like, I need to go lie on the couch. I need to have some downtime. But what's surprising about energy is that there's things that boost your energy that have nothing to do with rest or downtime. So engaging with a positive energizer. I would describe you as a positive energizer, Ginny. When I'm around you, your energy feeds into me. And I feel. I will feel more energized after this hour, even though I'm putting energy in wait. So that's kind of interesting.
- [03:23]
A
I want to add this to my bio. From now on, it'll be Ginny Urich. I do not have many credentials, author of such and such book and positive energizer.
- [03:32]
B
It's actually. That's actually a psychological term that they research. Like, it's Stanford who. Positive energizers. In group settings, if you have one positive energizer, the whole performance of the group goes up. And they're sort of described as people who are like the sun. You want to kind of lean towards them because they warm you up from the inside. And then there's. Then there's the aspect of energy. Like if you plop on the couch for an hour versus if you go walk outside for an hour. It takes more energy to go walk outside, but after that hour, you're going to feel significantly different, right. From being outside for an hour or playing with your kids outside versus inside. That's. I mean, that's something I really appreciate about your work. So what's going on there in terms of our energy. It's not like a woo woo thing. It's a real thing. You know, it. It's like down to the mitochondria of your cell. But that we also know there's energy exchange between people. There's a term called neuroception in psychology, which is. I'm picking up on the little lines around your eyes when you smile, your tone of voice, how you breathe. My nervous system reads all of that through neuroception without even paying attention to any word you're saying. So I've gotten super interested in this concept of energy because most of us are feeling depleted, burned out. A client said to me while I was writing this book, I feel like I'm both over committed and under involved. Like I'm doing way too much, but at the same time, not doing enough at the same time. And that's where wise effort came in. Because I'm like, I don't. This is not how we want to live. We want to live in ways where we're putting our best self out there. We're putting all of our life force, our energy, our gifts, our talents, but then we're also getting it back. And how can it be more regenerative like we see in nature? There's a lot of regenerative energy. We have a lot to learn from nature about that.
- [05:17]
A
I love how you talked about that in the book. You talked about the tall oaks, like the stability of these oaks. And you, like, walk into your office, you can, like, feel that stability. And you say the genius of nature is easy to spot. Gosh, I'm like, I've never thought about that. I've never thought, Diana, about like the. You know, you do you see the genius of nature all the time. And like, what can we grab from that? This part about the energy and how we perceive it. You said the nervous system reads. The energy, I think, is especially important in this day and age because that becomes this sort of lifelong wisdom that you have. Like you said, even something as small as a contraction of the orbicularis oculi muscles. I don't know if I said that right. But around the eyes gives us message that it's safe to connect or not connect. And this leads to becoming a wiser person. So could you talk about how screens might affect that? Because one of the things that you said was a textbook.
- [06:13]
B
Okay.
- [06:14]
A
Wisdom is learned through exploration rather than being told. A textbook can't tell you when it's time to put your dog to sleep or. Or what to say to your friend when she tells you she's getting a divorce. An app. This is one of my favorite lines I've ever read in any book, Diana. An app can't decide whether it's right to lean in for a kiss.
- [06:34]
B
Ooh, yeah.
- [06:36]
A
So can you talk about what we're missing? Like, the screens? To me, I'm like, okay, so, you know, we have this energy and we're feeling it from other people, and you talk about how this really matters. It's like our actual nervous system. And it's like the little teeny thing about the, you know, around the eyes. And if so much of childhood is going to screens or. Or screen interaction, I feel like we're missing out on all of that knowledge, the wisdom that comes from exploration.
- [07:01]
B
We're missing out on it, and we're also losing the connections to. So I said neuroception is our reading of energy between you and another person. We're also missing out on something called interoception, which is your awareness of your own body. When are you hungry, when are you full? Are you anxious, or are you. You feeling sad? You know, all this inner world that comes from awareness of. From your heartbeat to your breath to your appetite, to your emotions exists within the body. And one of the things that screens can do is. Can lead us to become disembodied. Even if you're. My husband has this thing on his screen where it has this little eyeball that shows up from time to time, and it tells you to look up from your screen, which is great. We all need to look from our screen. We know that when you're on screens more, you experience something called screen apnea. You forget to breathe. To breathe, and you need to look up. And there's also something about, do you need the eyeball on the screen to tell you that, or can you notice your own body, that your eyes are getting kind of stressed and you're not breathing? But if we're so dependent on technology to tell us all these things, we lose our own knowledge, our own wisdom of our body, which for generations and generations and generations, you know, sort of decided how we spend our time. It's getting dark. We're getting sleepy. It's time to go to bed. We don't need our Apple watch to tell us, it's getting dark, you're getting sleepy. Go to bed. You know, so I'm a big fan of kind of going back to embodied awareness, and I do think that's a wise use of our effort. Yeah, it's a Little harder. It's a little harder. And it's regenerative. When you start to get to know your body, it's one of those things, as many things are in life, where it's harder at first, but in the long term it's easier and it matters.
- [08:51]
A
You know, I think you get like, okay, I want my kid to know when it's the right time to lean in for a kiss. You know, what does that come from? That comes from a lot of embodied experiences. By the time they hit their teen years, you know, around there or otherwise, they don't, they don't know how to interact with those different energies and, and what different signals might mean. It matters a lot. I had bolded the thing about screen apnea. I never heard of that.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, we do hold our breath.
- [09:17]
A
Can you tell people what that is?
- [09:18]
B
This was a, not a randomized control trial, but it was a trial, a research project by somebody at Microsoft who looked at the degree to which people are holding their breath while they're on zooms and screens and that we breathe less, we hold our breath, we breathe more shallowly when we're on a screen. It makes sense. I can kind of feel it right now. So we have to remember that we need to take a breath. We need to get back into our body. But leaning in for a kiss is one thing. We also want our kids to be able to pay attention to something that I think is very important too, which is the whole body. No, when you lean away and that kiss is coming for you, like when to pull away, when to say, this person is not. This has got, this is like bad energy. This is not right for me. And that is an embodied experience. That is wisdom from the body that gives you the whole body. No. And again, if we're so, so addicted to something outside of ourselves telling us what's right or wrong for us, we don't have that awareness. This is. No, this is. I don't even know why. Like, sometimes it's before the verbal is the, the non verbal. And I want my kids to know that and abide by it and then gather other information to support their decision making. So that's all part of wise effort too. I have a whole chapter on wise body. And I am a big fan of embodiment and intercept awareness. And that's totally related to our relationship to nature.
- [10:49]
C
Right?
- [10:49]
B
It's, it's, it's part of it.
- [10:51]
C
Right.
- [10:51]
B
Nature helps us become more embodied because when we are in nature, we, we are, we're, we're More in our bodies. I mean, we're just. We notice the subtlety of things. We don't need it to be so loud and so blaring and so fast. Yeah.
- [11:09]
A
Yeah. It adds up to a lot of things, and that's what you get out of this book. So it's called Wise Effort, which is the same name as your podcast, how to focus your genius energy on what matters most. I've never heard of genius energy. So you talk about your husband's genius energy is patience. Can you explain what you mean by that?
- [11:26]
B
Okay, well, you probably know what your husband's genius energy is. We kind of know it. For other people, a genius energy. Their gifts, their talents, the things that come easily to them, the things that you're like, wow, how do you do that? That. I just. I. I don't do that. You do that somehow, like in your parenting or in your house. What is his. What is it?
- [11:45]
A
Yeah, he's really good with people. And actually, it's really interesting that you bring that up, because that was one of the things that, when we first started dating, I didn't know, like, he had gotten my phone number from somebody else, and I didn't really know him well, so I called somebody else who knew him, and I was like, this guy's trying to call. I don't, you know, I don't know anything about him. And he had just a ton of friends, and, like, people really liked him. So, like, this sort of this personality that kind of drew people in, draws people in, and he's still that way. So I don't know, like. But that. I don't know if that's a word. Is gregarious a word?
- [12:18]
B
Oh, that's a great word.
- [12:19]
A
Is it a good word?
- [12:20]
B
That's. I think that's an SAT word. Gregarious. So, yes, gregarious is a good word. So he's got sort of a good. He's like a. Draws people in.
- [12:28]
A
Yes, it's totally it. This is it. Fonda Co. Sociable. He was a popular and gregarious man. Yes.
- [12:36]
B
There you use it in a sentence. Even better. Double points. So, yes, that. Gregarious. That. That would be something that describes your husband and would be in the description of genius energy. I went from a psych. I'm always into the psychological science. But then how do you apply it? So from a psychological science perspective, I brought in these five different aspects that we have defined in psychology that sort of describe a person. It's not everything, but it's something to start with. Right. So Things like your interests. When you are in flow, what are you doing that's part of your genius. Your emotional intelligence, which sounds like your husband, his gregariousness, your abilities and talents, the things that come easily to you, your personality style and your character strengths, things that are like stand up qualities about you, you know, you're honest or you got a zest for life or you have a beautiful humility to you. And when you put them together, what they become is sort of like this like resource, like a light from within that people are drawn to, but that also makes life a little bit easier for you when you're using it. And so much of psychology is focused on like the like problems and the pathologies and all of that, which kind of drives me nuts because when I'm working with a client, I just see geniuses. I'm like, oh my gosh. I see it in my UPS driver. When she drives up, she's strong, she's fast, she's efficient, she knows exactly where to put the package when there's construction going on. And like, you know all the things. And I'm like, she's a genius. And I see it in my grocery clerk and I see it in every client and I see it in my kids. Now here's the other question for you, Jenny, which is, does your husband's gregariousness ever become a problem for him? Are there any kind of like shadow sides of that?
- [14:24]
A
I'm sure there are, but I'm like, I'm not going to put him on blast on this episode.
- [14:28]
B
Okay.
- [14:29]
A
But you know, I think that we all, we all have those. I liked you talked about in that book, in the book you were like, it can go too far. So, okay, so I, I'll talk about mine.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, good.
- [14:39]
C
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- [18:00]
A
Well, and I don't know if this relates, but I am that enneagram too. I don't know if you like enneagram or not, but. But to the point where it's like someone who like, does too much for other people. So like, if there's a fine line there, there's a fine line between like stepping in and like taking over and also not allowing the other person to reciprocate and like kind of bowling through relationships. And so I like how you talk about that. It's like any gift that you have can be taken too far.
- [18:28]
B
Yeah. So stepping in and taking over is like powerhouse energy and it will do really well for you in life. It'll help you, you know, run a household, start a podcast, write books, do powerful things. And then stepping in, taking over can be, as you described, sort of bowling bowler energy, where you can bowl over people and it can take you down. And then sometimes you need to step in and take over for some things, but you've lost track of that. Like, oh, I could use that genius here. I'm really good at putting it here, but maybe not so much here. And so with wise effort, what I help people do is first just start with, identify those strengths for themselves. And I have a whole lot of questions of how to do that, how to see the strengths in others, see the strengths in nature, and then how do you harness that energy in ways that are aligned with your values in the places that matter to you? So, for example, I mean, I mentioned my husband is very patient. He's a math teacher. He's like, he could sit with a 16 year old for like hours working on MA. I'm just, I would be pulling my hair out in two minutes. And he's got patients of, you know, forever patients that can become a problem if you are too patient. Right. Sometimes you need to dial down the patience. I mean, he's a little too patient with me sometimes. He could use some of your bowler energy, you know, to like, you know, say, Diana, you know, get back on track here. So we all have that, we all kind of know that tendency to kind of get sucked into some of those qualities of ourselves. And we also need wisdom to keep them on track. And I'm a big believer of discovering that we already are wise and there's wisdom all around us. And then how do we connect with that wisdom? Whether it's your spiritual wisdom, your connection to your faith, whether it's wisdom of your friends, whether it's the wisdom of nature, all of that can help you with your genius energy.
- [20:25]
A
Wow, what a great thing. What a great thing to start to learn about yourself and about your kids. You say, I see genius energy within every person I meet. And then you go through personality, talents, interests, character, strengths, emotional intelligence in the book so people can read more about that and also about hardships, how hardships often create beautiful genius energy. And this is for any age, because you talked about your son at age 12. You said he's asking better questions. Let me see. I think I wrote it down. To grow wiser, you need to be intentional about it. Folks who practice being open to experiences, emotional regulation and reflective thinking, score higher on measures of wisdom. You may think that older equals wise, but that's not always the case. My 12 year old son often asks better questions than I do at almost four times his age. Being smart isn't the same as being wise. So this is great for your kids too. You can start to kind of figure out what is their genius energy. And then you have all these principles of having wise effort in your life. So it's so practical. You kick it off with curiosity, which is something that I believe technology has zapped. You don't have to be curious. I gave an example. I actually talked about this recently, Diana, where we found a praying mantis outside. And the praying mantis we find usually.
- [21:37]
C
One or two a year and that's it.
- [21:39]
A
And the praying mantis was completely green and like a gorgeous color of green, like this bright green. Even the eyes, so it's green. The whole thing was green, all the same shade. And we were confused. I don't quite know, like why aren't the eyes black? And we had found another one a couple weeks later that had greens and browns. And I never looked it up to actually to this day, I don't know why that one was all green. But by not looking it up, we had all sorts of conversations about why that might be. And if you look it up immediately, it just shuts off the curiosity. So you talk about like in order to be wise, we have to be curious. Can you go deeper there?
- [22:18]
B
So you're talking about a particular type of curiosity. There's two types. There's deprivation, curiosity and there's interest curiosity, deprivation Curiosity is I want to get to the answer so I cannot have to worry about it anymore. You know, like, who was the person that sang that song, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you just look it up and you get the answer and you get some relief, right? It's a little bit kind of that addictive, clingy. I just want to know interest. Curiosity is asking a question that will lead to another question, that will lead to another question. So that you are just now in a rabbit hole of questions, leaning in and. And this is actually one of the most important things that we can teach our kids to do. How, what it was Rainer Rilke that said, learn to live in the questions themselves. Like how to be in the questioning. Because we can get to answers quicker than we've ever been able to get to answers before. What we are not developing is good questions and being able to stay in uncertainty, stay in unknown, stay in openness. I just interviewed this researcher who's at ucsb, Jonathan Schooler, who studies mind wondering. So for a long time in psychology there was this concept called this really well known paper, which is a wandering mind is an unhappy mind. And they were making this argument that we shouldn't let our minds wander. We all need to be mindful, we all need to be present. And this guy, Jonathan Schooler, he is kind of busting up that research by showing that if you allow your mind to wander that you are more creative. You also mind wandering and openness and creativity is associated with longevity. You are also have better relationships if you have a little bit of mind wondering. And it's not mind wandering, like I'm wandering off to like ruminate about things and beat myself up and worry. That type of mind wandering is not good for us, but mind wandering is so good for us and we're doing less of it. Because where do you mind wonder? You mind wonder when you have space, when you're just going for a walk and you don't have your phone and you're not. I love a pot. My mind can actually want. Can wonder. With the podcast, it sort of sometimes generates a little bit of mind wondering. But if you just have a little bit more space in your life, more margins on the page. When we used to write papers, we'd have those margins on the page for a reason. You need that break. So curiosity is just probably one of the most important super skills that we can have. It is approaching something with more questions, without judgment, without that deprivation feeling and more just this openness. Openness is the new mindfulness. Like how do we open our minds more, especially when we're looking at hard stuff about ourselves, not get into, like, self, oh, I'm such a bad person because I got into that same, you know, pattern that I always get into. But looking at, huh. I'm curious. I wonder why. Let my mind wander to that for a little bit with curiosity.
- [25:22]
A
You talk about how that happens when you go running.
- [25:25]
B
Yeah, I'm. I say. I use the word run, but I will say that there's people that are walking faster than I run at this stage of my life.
- [25:33]
A
Outdoor movement, right? The outdoor movement.
- [25:35]
B
Outdoor movement.
- [25:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [25:37]
B
That.
- [25:37]
A
The nature. And this is well studied. There's a link between nature and creative thinking and a link between natural environments and sparking curiosity and encouraging flexibility and imagination. I love this story that you talked in this part, this wise effort part about being more curious and. And that sort of linked to creativity. And all of this about this woman who was a paralegal, and she's, like, hating her life, and so she moves into an rv and you're like, when you're talking about wisdom, like, to me, that's like the ultimate wisdom when you're like, I don't like how my life is. I think that maybe this change would make a big difference, but I don't know. You have to build those decisions based off of, like, a lifelong wisdom about what you know about yourself up until that point. So can you talk about what she did and, like, what the outcome was?
- [26:24]
B
Yeah. So this was actually. She was a. A therapist, and she had gone to school to be a therapist. And, you know, when you go to school and you get your degree and your family comes to your graduation, all of a sudden you have this, like, lead weight that you're carrying around of, like, this is who I have to be because I went to school for this. How many people feel that way? I went to school for this. So therefore I have to do this.
- [26:46]
C
Yep.
- [26:47]
B
That should. That have to. That external expectation that boxes us in and prevents us from mind wondering, what do I really want to do? How could I really use my gifts? What is really, like, maybe those gifts that are. Were around being a therapist are also potentially could be used in other ways that were more rewarding. She was getting really burned out. She was working in a group home, which is incredibly beautiful work, and was burning her out. And so she got an RV with her husband, and they started traveling around the country in their rv. And every morning when they lift up those windows, like, some mornings it's a parking lot. Some mornings it's a national forest. Some mornings, you know, it's someone else's RV right across the way. And she. She goes out and she sets up her kitchen. In the morning, she has her cup of coffee out on her front little porch. And it is. Is so invigorating for her. And then she's using her. Her genius at understanding mental health stuff by working in marketing and media and supporting and being a VA for therapists. So, you know, there's just lots of creative ways that we can live our life. And we have permission to, if we give ourselves permission to follow some of those leads of, like, what is my genius and what is my values? And how could I. I use my values as sort of like banks of a river to allow this flow of energy to go somewhere. It doesn't have to look like what you think it should look like. And that's really freeing. And what ends up happening is you end up serving better. You give more of yourself, and people need your genius, and they. I, for me, I really believe, you know, our job here is to serve. It's to offer our gifts. It's to serve, it's to give. But we don't have to serve in a way that we're just, like, completely depleted, and we're, like, empty on the floor. There's better ways to do it. And for this. This person, it's in an rv.
- [28:42]
A
I know. I totally had a job. Job. Wrong.
- [28:44]
C
You're right.
- [28:45]
A
You're right. Four years ago, Tina was working at a group home for children in adolescence, to your point, which is such honorable work. But she says she was overworked, underpaid, and disenchanted by the politics of the workplace. It was meaningful work, but her heart and genius were no longer in it. So you're talking about changing your environment, having enough wisdom to change your environment. She comes this virtual assistant, and she calls herself the Wandering va And you write, the freedom that she had to work outside and to take midday hikes and to connect with the RV community and to set up her laptop under her outdoor tent greatly improved her mental health, her creativity, her overall quality of life. And then it spilled over into supporting her clients. And for her, hitting the road was wise effort, directing her genius effort to where it would best thrive. So you're talking about how the right environment can support your genius energy. So I think this is kind of a big deal, Diana, because for a lot of us, our environments are rather awful. Like, it might be a toxic work environment, it might be an unsupportive spouse. It might be a chronic health condition. It might be a stressful living situation. It might be the fact that you have to have so many hours sitting in front of a screen and your eyes are burning. It might be that you have nasty co workers. It might be that you have too much homework. So this is something that we should be considering is how is our environment affecting our day, our day to day life? And, and possibly looking for some big solutions. Like Tina. That's a big solution, is a big change. But it worked.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah, sometimes it's big, big tweaks, sometimes it's little tweaks. Yeah. I'm in an environment right now where I'm renting a home and they have to replace the foundation under our house. Like jackhammering under the house. Like, my foundation is literally being jack handed under, you know, hammered underneath me. This is like a metaphor for how I feel in life often. Like this groundless feeling and the, the jackhammering sound. Right. All day long. Jackhammer. My poor dog. I'm like, my dog is impacted by this. Right? We're all irritable. Like, why am I so irritable? It's not because I'm an irritable person. It's because they're jackhammering all day. And then I'm like, okay, so get wise about this. Because I was so attached to. Well, but this is my background. This is my thing. This is. And I'm like calling up friends and family. Like, look, I got all these interviews, I got all this stuff going on. I need a quiet place. Who's got a quiet place? So I'm sitting in my sister's husband's office right now. Right? This is. I'm a beautiful, like, that's a beautiful background. It's not mine. It's not mine. I give it to my sister's husband. So the.
- [31:21]
A
This is, it is beautiful, by the way, because I don't. We try and get the episodes up on YouTube, but like, I, I'm way behind. I mean, I have thought, oh, that's a really pretty, pretty pillow that you're sitting next to. It's like on both sides. And like, that's such a beautiful artwork. And I'm like, oh, Diana, like, she's got a great setup for her podcast.
- [31:38]
B
So perfect. She's got it all together. No. Yeah, no, I got Jack harring in my home. But what I do have is wise effort. So wise effort is depending on second bodies. You know, who are the bodies that like, you know, it's like, you have your right hand and your left hand and then you got your second body that helps you carry the loads of life and you are other people's second bodies. Right. So right now my brother in law is my second body. I'm getting to use his space, but I've been his second body when he's needed something. I, I'm a, I'm a great psychological second body for people. I'm the person that people call when things fall apart in their families or people die or them. And like I'm on it. I'm a great second body for that. That's my genius. His genius is he's a great problem solver and he's, you know, has a nice office space as a result. Yeah. So yeah. So these are ways in which we can start to look at our interconnections and our connections. And wise effort is. It has this quality of letting go of controlling everything, letting go of the story about it's supposed to be a certain way being able to be with discomfort and you know, not running away from discomfort all the time and then, you know, holding things a little bit more lightly. You know, it doesn't always, it doesn't. Life does not follow the train tracks that you think it's gonna, gonna follow. It's much more of a, you know, open field where you, you find little trail heads and you take them and you see where, where they go. So I think that's a wiser use for effort. But finding your second bodies is like key, especially if you're a parent. I mean we have many, many, many, many bodies to support us in our parenting.
- [33:14]
A
And I love this. Just thought about your environment. So your wise, your wise effort. Task one is just being more curious. And curious can help you be. If you're more curious, you can be more motivated and more innovative. And that is what this Tina did. I mean that's really innovative. And I think that's probably one extreme where you're like, I don't like, like the way my life is. So I'm moving into this RV and I'm going to feed my cats in the morning and have my coffee and, and sit outside and, and meet these other people. But I think you can take a situation like that that you write about and say okay, what can I do to improve my environment if it's not suiting our life? And I'm sure that there are like you said, small tweaks and big tweaks.
- [33:50]
C
That you can do.
- [33:51]
A
And it gives you the courage like try something different because you Talk about how your environment is the water you swim in every day. Talking about opening up. This is another one of the wise effort tasks. And I love the story about the rooster because we have rooster, and I actually like it. So, you know. Well, the thing you learn about the rooster is they don't just cock a doodle do in the morning. They cock a doodle do all day long. And I actually like the sound, but I could see how if it wasn't my rooster, I would be like, oh, my gosh. So can you talk about opening up helped you in this? I mean, it's actually a pretty similar situation. You're like, you got the rooster, you got the jackhammering. It's like just affecting your environment.
- [34:30]
B
How much of what we. How we relate to a sound is so in our inner world and our own perception of things. And we can make ourselves miserable by resisting something and hating something and creating a story about it. So whether it's jackhammer, I mean, I look at these guys with the jackhammering. They're just whistling along, you know, they're. They're happy. This is what they do all day. They jackhammer. This is their job. And the rooster is another example. So I had a. The. My neighbors, we live in kind of like an area that has people have warm farms and, you know, gardens and rooster. It's sort of normal. But. But we didn't. We hadn't had a rooster yet. We had chickens, you know, and then. And they got a rooster during COVID I think they wanted to hatch their own chicks, which is a very. Is that why you have a rooster? Do you like to hatch your own?
- [35:19]
A
Well, yeah. Okay. So the rooster can make it so that you can hatch chicks. But also, the roosters are protective, so they really do protect the hens. And so they'll, you know, they'll kind of run after predators or they can kind of herd in the hens. I mean, it's pretty interesting. I actually don't know why we have roosters. We got chickens and didn't really know what we were doing, but I certainly did not know that they were gonna.
- [35:41]
C
Like I said, cockadoodle do all day, every day, all day long.
- [35:44]
B
Yeah. And it's sort of probably 50 chance. No. I didn't know. When you get those baby chicks. No. So they got a rooster. And what I experienced with it, because it was Covid, and I was kind of stressed out, and I also was doing everything from home, you know, was this rooster would crow at the most unhelpful times, like When I'm doing an interview or when I'm in with a client. And I mean, that's pretty close. And so I, you know, and it's a big deal. It's.
- [36:10]
A
Let me tell you this because I interviewed someone recently and I was like, there is a lot of noise in the background. I thought his kids were screaming. It was like. But then it was like, like too. It was too, like, consistent. I was like, he's got little kids. They must be screaming in the background. But I'm like, it's too consistent. And then I was like, maybe there's something wrong with my headphones. Like, it every, you know, few seconds it's making this like really high pitched noise. So finally I was like, look, I'm like, what is going. Something's going on. And he was like, oh, that's our chickens.
- [36:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, they're loud. But we have that, you know, we've also experienced that with somebody chewing their cereal. Yeah, that is the loudest, most obnoxious sound. Can you stop smacking? Right. So some of it's how we're relating to it. How are we relating to this sound? And the analogy that I'm using in the book is our mind, because our mind is sort of like that too. How are we relating to our own mind, to our own thoughts? And there's different ways in which we can relate to that rooster kind of sound in our mind or the rooster in our lives, or the someone that's cheering, chewing cereal too loud. And one way that is very unwise effort is trying to control it, trying to make it go away, Trying, you know, if I fight this enough, it'll. It'll quiet it down. And what we know about that sort of effort to control and make go away and not think about that rooster or hate the person with the rooster or hate the person at the cereal. Chewing the cereal next to you is that it makes it so much worse. It makes it so much louder. And then you're using a lot of your precious, this genius energy, right. Not where you want it to be, which is maybe in your podcast interview, right. Because you're in your head about it. So when we think about wise effort and opening up the mind, opening up the mind is allowing for more space for some of this stuff to go on, some of this stuff that you don't like in your own mind, not fighting reality quite as much as we tend to fight reality. Letting go of a whole lot so that we can focus our mind and choose to have flexible attention back to this psychological Flexibility. I can have flexible attention where I choose, where I am placing my attention. Am I placing it on the rooster, or am I placing it on the person that I'm talking to? Am I placing it on the person that's chewing too loudly at the table next to me? Or am I placing on. How am I showing up in this relationship? Am I being kind? Am I being, you know, present in my being helpful? So that's opening up the mind. Practice. And I think it's very, very, very important because much of our suffering comes from how we're relating to things and not necessarily the thing themselves. Because here's a perfect example. Jenny thinks that the rooster sounds plenty joyful and sweet. I'm hating the rooster. And those are just different relationships with the same sound.
- [39:02]
A
Isn't that interesting? And the neighbor's probably like, everybody loves this rooster that we just got. And you're like, I know. I'm trying to do all these other things.
- [39:08]
C
Things.
- [39:08]
A
It's already really loud because all my kids are home and I'm trying to work. And it's just that one thing that kind of pushes you over the edge.
- [39:14]
B
Yeah.
- [39:16]
C
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- [39:32]
A
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C
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C
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- [42:46]
A
The book, you go through all sorts of, well, different things that can happen. Like you talk about grief, you talk about your husband. He's got this eye situation and, and he has to kind of like tilt his head and he's in it, he's looking at you in different ways. And like all these things that we go through that are way beyond the annoying rooster. And you give all these practical things of actual things that you can do, you know, because to say to open up. I think sometimes people are at the end of their rope and they're like, I just, I, I can't, like, I can't let that one thing in. I can't let it go. That rooster is irritating me so much. You give so many practical ways of how to incorporate that space. Like from breathing to movement to sticking your face in a bowl of cold water, which I have yet to try, but I keep thinking about doing it. My mother in law gave me this huge bowl and I'm like, I really want to try it. Like the mammalian dive reflex. And it just like kind of jolts you. You feel it when you jump into really cold water. Like it's so refreshing and you can't, it's like, you know, everything else kind of fades away. But one of the big things that you talk about is movement. And that is a good topic, I think, for this podcast we're trying to get outdoors and a lot of times that goes hand in hand with movement. You say when you're having a strong feeling. So whether that, you know, my husband has this degenerative eye disease and it's really a big deal, or I'm irritated by the rooster, or I've had this grief. You had this sentence in here that said, everything we love, we will lose. I was like, oh my gosh, that's so deep, Diana. But it's so true. Everything we love, we will lose. So you're going through this. One of the things you say is just moving. When you have a strong feeling, sometimes the worst advice is to just sit with it.
- [44:24]
B
Oh, I hate that advice. Just sit with it. Feel your feelings. Sometimes, you know, feelings come with them. Neurochemicals that are designed to move us. Anxiety, you know, like what is, what is cortisol and norepinephrine and all these feeling, you know, these, these chemicals do in our body. They tell us to move. Right. Or sometimes our feelings are so heavy that movement will help us lift out of them. You know, something like grief is like. It feels like you're carrying a load of bricks when you're grieving. It's really hard to move when you're grieving. So movement does so many different things. I mean, it does so many things for our brain. We know that in terms of, you know, just getting blood flowing to our brain and BDNF and all the. You know, we know all the reasons why it's good for our brain. But there's other aspects to movement that I find really beneficial. One is that it gets us out of ourselves when we're in an intense, low emotion. Often what we're doing is we're, like, kind of like circling into this really tight, tangled, small self. It's like the ultimate selfie. And we don't open up to the world that's around us. We don't connect and moving inherently. Unless, I mean, it just. It gets you out. It gets you out into seeing other people. All of a sudden, you see a dog, you see a bird, you see the sky, whatever. Maybe you're even walking in a city, and you're just, you know, hearing sounds, and you. And you're kind of getting out of yourself. Today's Actually, Today's my son's 16th birthday, and. And you have this, like, combination of, like, utter joy and utter sadness at the same time.
- [46:07]
A
That's right.
- [46:08]
B
Oh, you go back and you find all those pictures of them, you know, and you're watching the old videos.
- [46:13]
A
Yeah. Because by 16, they're. They look like a man.
- [46:16]
B
Yeah, he's like a man.
- [46:17]
A
They're driving, which it turns out to be a wonderful thing. Actually, that turned out to be one of my favorite milestones. You know, for, like, a half second, you're like, oh. And then you're like, this is great.
- [46:28]
B
And I was watching this video this morning of my son climbing down from this rock when he was, like. I think he was like, six or so. And he says, mama, will you support me? As he's reaching his little foot down the side of the rock. And I'm like, okay, there's a rock hold. There's a rock hold. There's a foothold. And it's such a. I mean, there's an example of movement that is, like, stretching ourselves. We're connecting. We're supporting each other. We're learning about taking risks.
- [47:00]
A
Right.
- [47:00]
B
These are all the skills that we need to navigate things like hardship in life. So movement gives us that kind of opportunity. So I just, I can't say enough about how much movement offers us. And unfortunately, I mean, if I just said I was watching a video of my son, right? So so much of our life is pulling us away from movement. And movement may be the medicine for our feelings. Movement may be the medicine for our loneliness. It may be the medicine for our joy and connection, especially movement outside. So that's what we're gonna do this afternoon with my son is gonna move outside. But yeah, it's definitely wise effort. A good place to put your energy.
- [47:42]
A
Oh, this is really good. So if people pick up the book which is called Wise Effort, people can listen to your podcast as well. There are so many ideas in here. And so you're talking about how strong emotions can hijack our nervous system, sending us into panic. Impulsive action, which you don't want, like in life, that's the opposite of wise, right? Is impulsive action or shutdown. And so you write, physical activity metabolizes stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline while triggering the release of endorphins, your body's natural stress relievers. It's like, that's what you want. I would like to please metabolize the stress hormones. Like, I don't want those anymore and release the endorphins. So you talk about movement, moving outside, and other pretty simple things like humming. Humming actually makes a difference. If I feel like stressed out. I do a fair amount of computer work because I'm getting ready for podcasts. Sometimes I'm like, I don't quite know if I'm gonna make it on time. Like, I'm like, I'm gonna be talking to this person and be like, I don't really know anything about your book or you or. So I get like a little nervous. I've never. I always kind of make it, but I'll hum. It's so weird. I'm like humming like, people are like, this lady's probably nuts, you know, but. But it helps. And you have. I didn't know this one of rubbing your hands together and putting them over your eyes. I like, that's like, I'll try that one. But the movement. And then you talked about how. And I don't know if this is the office that you're at, but you have a brother in law that makes like robots, basically.
- [49:07]
B
Yes, this is the office that I'm at. I'm sitting next to a robot right now.
- [49:11]
A
You're sitting next to. Okay, so you've got this Brother in law that works on robots. And I loved this, this like mental picture of that the robot might get stuck. So the robot gets stuck. Like maybe you've got like a Roomba, right, that like does the vacuuming and it gets stuck somewhere and it's like, well, what should a robot do if it gets stuck? And you say that they're programmed not to think their way out. What do they program the robots to do?
- [49:35]
B
So, so he actually programmed this button called a get unstuck button. And he worked on Roombas and Segways and self driving, you know, flying planes. But he also worked on robots like in Afghanistan. Like it, you know, to help with minds, you know, finding minds. And the get unstuck button when, when it is deployed, what the robot is supposed to do is anything and everything in the robot's repertoire other than what it's doing. So get on the floor and crawl really low or jump up and down, or do a backflip or hit your head against the wall, shake.
- [50:07]
A
Yeah, I'm sure any of it, right?
- [50:08]
B
Run backwards. And if you think about that, at some point that robot will get unstuck. Humans don't do that. What humans do is they do more of the thing harder that they are stuck in, right? So I'm going to try and convince my partner just harder that I'm right or I'm going to, you know, battle my teenager just a little bit more or I'm going to beat myself up about not exercising. Like I'm going to like put reminders in my phone, I'm going to keep up. But maybe there's something radically different that's not what you're doing right now that you haven't tried that would get you unstuck. I have so many clients that I find they get unstuck in the most miraculous ways because they're not doing the thing that they always do. They're trying something new. And this is actually just a huge principle in behavioral psychology. Keep on trying new things. This is also related to curiosity and interest and mind wondering, huh, I wonder if. And then if something works, then reinforce the heck out of the tiniest little thing that works. So we want, we want, if it works just a tiny bit, then reinforce it and encourage it. It's like a little seedling that is starting to grow. Reinforce it, keep it growing, but then let it go if it doesn't work. And that can apply to your relationships. It can reply to writing books, it can apply to your exercise program. It can apply to pretty much anything that you want to get going in your life?
- [51:39]
A
Yeah, I love this idea. I love it. I love the idea of the get unstuck button. Like, I'm stuck. And I think that happens a lot in life. But this sentence, you have strong emotions. You're being hijacked. Like, I'm stuck. You're like, hit the get unstuck button button. Try everything. The robot tries every behavior in its repertoire. Sometimes thinking your way out of a problem won't help. Instead, you have to behave your way out of it. And so you give all of these incredible ideas on how to do that. And that's important for us. I think it's important for your kids. So a lot of ideas in this book called Wise Effort. Let's wrap it up with your own personal story. So you talk about your own personal story in this book, and people can find more information on your podcast and your website. And then the other book, which is I know I should Exercise, but which is a fantastic book that we talked about with Katie. But you had this story. This is such an incredible story, Diana, where you're, like, at the.
- [52:29]
B
This.
- [52:29]
A
I don't know what. It was, like, a conference. And the person who's speaking is like, can you think of your earliest moment of shame? And so you're like, in your mind. And, you know, anybody who's listening can be like, yeah, you know, I had this. And it's personal. Like, I'm sure it's super personal. Everybody's moment of shame is personal. You talk about you struggle with this eating disorder, and you're thinking about that, and then the guy's like, okay, share.
- [52:51]
C
Share it.
- [52:52]
A
Share it. So now turn to the person next to you and tell them. And you're like, in your mind, you're like, this is awful. It ended up turning out really to be a good situation for you. It was your publisher. And then you go on to, you know, write these two amazing books. But can you talk about just. I mean, that's a big struggle, you know, this eating disorder struggle that you had. And it was like, from when you're younger, and then it cropped back up even when you're working on becoming a psychologist and working with patients. So that, to me, seems like a situation. They're actually all pretty similar, Diana.
- [53:33]
C
Right?
- [53:33]
A
Like. Like, that would be similar to not choosing not to exercise or not figuring out how to do that in your life or, you know, these things that we get really stuck. And you're trying to get yourself out of that place, like the robot. What did you do to finally free yourself from that.
- [53:50]
B
Yeah, well, I. I think anyone can relate to struggles that they think that they've gotten over and keep coming back. And you're like, how is this possible, really? This is here again. Haven't I gotten over this by. At this age? And then we can also think about the get unstuck button with something like shame, where the thing that keeps us stuck in shame is hiding. You know, like, we don't. We hide the things about ourselves that we feel shame around, and then therefore, nobody ever sees them. And the shame just grows like black mold in the closet. Whether that's shame around something in your marriage, you know, somebody, you know, something horrible happened in your past, or even just shame around the foibles that we make as parents. You know, we. Yeah, you know, we kind of like, just don't go to that part of my house. Just stay in the front room, you know, you don't want to see what's back there. Don't open my closets. Right. So we all have our own version of what's in there. And our shame holes. And just how that manifested for me was through an eating disorder. But I would say there's plenty of people with all sorts of things. I've heard it all. I've heard it all. Addictions, all sorts of things. And one of my geniuses is that I'm ridiculously persistent and I'm kind of like a. A, Like a hardcore go after things. And that hardcore go after things has been really beneficial for me. It's how you get your PhD. It's how you do great things in life. But it's also been my complete frenemy and downfall in terms of harming my body through anorexia and bulimia and all of that, like, just horrific kind of like shame hole stuff. So what happened at this, this particular conference was a typical Diana move, where I entered into this is a psychology conference, world conference, blah, blah, blah, big thing. And the workshop was on self criticism or compassion or something. And the reason why I went in was because I saw this publisher sitting at a table, and this is so ugly. I was like, I'm gonna go sit next to them and I'm gonna sell them this book, right?
- [55:54]
A
It's actually a great story, Diana.
- [55:56]
B
So terrible. This is like the dark side, right? So I'm like, I go and sit down next to this guy thinking that I'm gonna like, like, you know, I'm gonna schmooze, I'm gonna like, get a book deal out of it and Then the person says, share your most shameful story. And I was, I was like, oh, man, gassed.
- [56:11]
A
You're just aghast.
- [56:12]
B
And then do I go there? So there's the get unstuck button, right? The get unstuck. So my usual path would be don't, you know, say something's kind of surfacey and blah, blah. So I actually, I'm like, I'm gonna go there. I, I couldn't help it. It just came to me. And for me, the story was this like, like. And I can say it now, I could not say this as easily, but I've gone into the shame hole enough times where I'm comfortable being there. But the, the story was I was in this public bathroom, and I was purging in this public bathroom, and this mom and this little girl came in, and this little girl looked under the stall, you know, like curious little children do, and she saw me. And this most, like, embarrassing, horrific state, right, of throwing up in a public bathroom. Like, the floor was wet because they hose it down, you know, in the mornings, and, and she, she sees me, and then her mom pulls her and says, that's disgusting. And I, I, I just carried that feeling of like, I am disgusting. Like, I'm a disgusting, horrific human. And the truth is, because I've worked with so many people with so many addictions and so many of their disgusting, horrific things. The truth is, is that I was a human that was stuck and I was suffering. But I carried that I'm disgusting story for so long. And then I shared it with this publisher, and it was like the way that he looked at me was the, like, the kindest eyes I've ever seen. He was just like, oh, you know. And then the tables turned, and he had to share with me his most disgusting, horrible story. And all I could feel was, like, love for him. And all of a sudden, we're in this love festival. We're like, we're, like, locked in of, like, you know, we're just humans. We have this cover. We have the COVID we put on, but really underneath it all, we're just humans. We get stuck. We do things that we regret, and we can actually use some of that for the compost for life, you know, like, maybe then we can understand others a little bit more, be more compassionate towards others and become better humans because of it. So it was a pretty powerful experience.
- [58:21]
A
Like, it couldn't have gone better, actually. You know, like, you think this is the worst thing ever, but it couldn't have gone better. You say it's hard to be a person. And so here you connect over these stories. And he says, I think you could write a really good book on self compassion. I mean, it's really powerful. So you are writing this book from obviously your experience of working with so many different patients over the years and families and things like that, but then also from your own experience. You say for your own self. You're like, when I have 10 minutes, I could catch up on email, but instead I go outside. You say, I take a break and I go out and I put down my laptop and I walk the gravel path and I exhale. I release the energy I'm holding from the client I just saw. I return to my breath, remembering my values of presence and care. I make space to welcome what and who comes next. So you're sharing other stories, but also your own. And I'm so thankful I read it. The book is called Wise effort, how to focus your genius energy on what matters most. I'm so thankful to have spent two hours with you. I got so much out of the other book and now this new one. Diana, thank you so much for being here.
- [59:23]
B
Thank you so much. You know, Jenny, there's so much about you that is bringing the genius to the world of what you offer. And I'm just happy to have this little sliver of time with you. And I appreciate everything that you are offering our planet and our kids and our future. It's making a big difference. So thank you.
- [59:39]
A
Okay, that was a perfect ending, but I have to add one thing because I forgot it. Okay. You just wrapped it up so beautifully and I'm ruining it because you have some programs that you offer and one of them that's coming is wise effort for couples, which is about tuning up your relationships. So just ruined your perfect ending because I want to add that in. I actually think that's really important. You talk about, like, we just don't tune up. We tune up our cards, but we don't really tune up our relationships because we're so busy. So I'll make sure I'll put all that information in the show notes so that when that comes out, people can find you you. Okay. This is the real ending. Thanks for being here, Diana.
- [60:09]
B
You're so great. You're so easy. You're so fluid and ridiculously prepared.
- [60:16]
A
Oh, I just read it. I read it and took notes. I. I mean, and I loved it. There's so much. It's very comprehensive and really great for parents too, to be using with their kids.
- [60:26]
B
Yeah. Thank you.