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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 611: 26 Is the New 18 | Tim Elmore, The Future Begins With Z
00:59:26
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I am thrilled today that for a second time, Tim Elmore is back. Welcome, Tim.
- [00:10]
B
Thank you, Jenny. Good to be with you. Always fun to be with you.
- [00:13]
A
So you do an incredible job about helping interpret between the generations. You say you've 45 years of work working with younger generations. For decades, you've attempted to stay on top of the realities within the youngest populations, entering the workforce and, and entering the marketplace as customers. And so a lot of the listeners to this podcast are parents, and they are parents of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. And so they're wanting to help make sure that their children succeed. They also may be employers of Gen Z. And then coming up, Gen Alpha. And so you have this book that is out now. If you're listening to this podcast, Ford by John Maxwell. You said you were just on his podcast. He's 78 years old. You used to work for him. You learned a lot from him. The Future begins with Z. 9 strategies to lead Generation Z as they disrupt the workplace. Where did your interest in younger generations start?
- [01:04]
B
You know, I'll be honest with you, Jenny. I think it started when I was the emerging generation. So I started my career 45 years ago. Believe it or not, I started in the classroom. But I'm. I immediately realized this is where I want to give my life. Even though I was a young person, I thought, boy, pouring into young people, they're moldable, they're still idealistic, they're still ready to charge hell with a water pistol, you know, that sort of thing. So even though I kept growing older and the young people kept staying young, I kept saying, this is where I want to get my life. So it was the baby boomers 45 years ago that were still growing up. Then it was the Xers, then it was the Millennials. Now it's Gen Z. And as you just said, soon it will be the Alpha generation children. But I keep bumping into employers, bosses, supervisors, athletic coaches who get frustrated with the next gen because we're just coming in so different. We have this one way of thinking. It's dutiful and punctual and responsible, and they're just coming in different. Not bad, but different. And we tend to judge instead of saying, let me lean in and listen and find out why you are the way you are. I think Gen Z is so promising, and I'm hoping in this conversation we can demonstrate that. But that's why I'm so intrigued by the next gen. Yeah.
- [02:23]
A
Well, you talk about that a lot in your books. You talk about what they bring to the table and you have incredible examples that pop up throughout the book of these entrepreneurial ventures that Gen Z has undertaken. So an automatic tourniquet or there was a young woman who was. Had figured out how to 3D print schools, you know, for kids to have different educational opportunities. So you talk about how they really want to start things. They bring a lot to the table. And yet you have statistics about how the employers are avoiding hiring, often Gen Z, or they want to at least make sure they've had a job in between. And I actually just last night was with a group of people and one of the people was an employer and that's what he was doing, was complaining about Gen Z, that the raise that he gave them wasn't enough, you know, that they're just more entitled. They don't count their commissions as part of their salary, you know, and he was frustrated. So I think it's so wonderful how you explain what's going on so someone can know and then you explain, you know, maybe it's not a problem. What are the benefits? And in a work environment, what are ways that you can help? I do have this question. There's a lot of parents that listen in, Tim.
- [03:33]
B
Yeah.
- [03:33]
A
And we're trying to get kids outside. We are trying to give kids a fair amount of autonomy during childhood so that they are better at taking risks, so that they maybe have better social skills and things like that. It is interesting when there are cohorts. I mean, you have a whole chart in the book of generational changes. There are cohorts and you know, you give the statistic of. And I. I mean, you might not know it off the top of your head. It was in like, how it was how many employers don't even really want to hire J or how quickly they're losing their jobs. There was a lot of statistics in there. Yeah. So many notes here, Tim. I can't even find them. Do you kind of know them?
- [04:12]
B
I do, though. I do know. So resume builder.com did a nationwide survey. They discovered that three out of four managers say gen Z is the toughest generation to manage, and 30 say I'm avoiding hiring them altogether because they're just so different. So that is troublesome. And the reason that's troublesome is while I understand that notion, Gen Z is the future. We don't know a lot about what's going to happen in the future, but we know one thing, Generation Z is going to be there. So I'm saying we've got to lean in and maybe find the answer in the middle. Because you're right, Jenny, sometimes they come in entitled and a little bit late to the meeting and so forth, and we're going, what in the world? But if you don't mind, I can venture what I believe. I have a hypothesis that might make sense to every listener right now. I call it the Peter Pan Paradox. The Peter Pan Paradox. And it is a paradox. So you remember the character Peter Pan, the Disney movie and the play and the book. So Peter Pan was this winsome character that could fly into London. We don't know how he did that, but he did sprinkle pixie dust everywhere and make magical things happen. The other side of the coin was, if you remember, Peter Pan wanted to stay in Neverland, where you really never have to grow up. So my theory is, and parents, employers, coaches, youth pastors, here's the deal. The age of authority seems to be going down.
- [05:44]
A
Yeah.
- [05:45]
B
But the age of maturity seems to be going up. So they're coming in with some. Something magic and tragic is happening in our culture today. They're magical in that they seem to have intuition on AI and know how to monetize it. They see where culture's going. They'll show us tomorrow's customer right away. At the same time, though, oh, my gosh, Jenny. I've lost count of the number of employers that say 26 is the new 18.
- [06:13]
A
20.
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B
You know, we just can't expect them to be mature at 18. And I think we can do better than that. So that's my premise.
- [06:19]
A
So here's my question, because, you know, we often view generations as a cohort.
- [06:24]
B
Yeah.
- [06:25]
A
What it seems to me, Tim, is that if you can, as a parent, insert some fairly simple foundational things throughout childhood, you may really help your child and give them a fairly significant advantage if they are able to be really present in the real world. If they can show small skills like showing up on time and having a little bit more grit and being able to take risks. And, you know, because you talk about, and you talk about this in your other books, too, about how we kind of do everything for our kids, is it worth it? Even though they're viewed as a cohort? And you talk about how that so many 30% of managers report firing a Gen Z employee within a month of their start date, Is it worth trying to circumvent some of the key changes as a parent?
- [07:17]
B
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'LL lean in and tell you. My wife Pam and I started seeing this coming when our adult children were just children. And we started seeing that if we could build emotional intelligence in them. And by the way, that is a skill that can be developed. IQ doesn't change, EQ can change. So leaders and parents listening. If you can build these interpersonal skills, people skills, self awareness, social awareness, self management, regulating your own emotions, that's a, that's a killer. So let me tell a quick story. When our kids were growing up, we were talking about emotional intelligence when they were late elementary school already at 10 years old. And our kids thought they had mastered this EQ issue. And we thought, oh my gosh, this is ridiculous. So we started building exercises into our family routines. Our first one, Jenny was my wife and I decided to throw a party for our adult friends. We had our kids host the party at 8 and 12. So at first the kids thought, oh my gosh, this is ridiculous. It's so stupid. But you know what they learned to do? Host a party. They'd answer the door, hi, Mrs. Smith, come on in. Have you met Mr. Johnson? May I take your coat? Would you like some iced tea? Here's the hors d'. Oeuvres. But I'm telling you, they did this for two, three hours. They were exhausted. I mean, people are exhausting. But what it did was it took a past. Oh yeah, I should be good with people to. I'm building skills where I'm listening and reading the faces of the people in front of me. That is priceless. And because AI is playing a bigger role in our careers and jobs now, building emotional intelligence in the next gen could be the differentiator that they'll never be out of a job. Well, I shouldn't say that. They'll always be wanted by employers if we can build those kind of skill sets in them. That's what I would say. Yeah.
- [09:17]
A
Yeah, you have. In this book, the future begins with Z. Six qualities that will increase in value. They'll increase in value in the AI age. And one of them is emotional intelligence. Actually, I just read this book, I'm talking to this woman you coming up soon named Heather Schumacher. And she wrote a book called it's okay not to Share. And it's all about the skills that kids learn through play as 3 year olds and 4 year olds, about how to have their own autonomy, about how to not get pushed over, about how to engage with other people. And so this, this becomes really important. So some of the things that you say that they're unready for.
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B
Yeah.
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A
They're missing interpersonal skills. So you gave us, you gave a story of a young woman who goes in for an interview and maybe she gets the job. I'm not quite sure. But she says to the CEO, I'm going to have your job in 18 months. You're like, well, you just, you don't say those types of things. You say they have low self awareness and come across as arrogant. They have a high GPA and low eq, their work ethic appears absent. They don't seem to care about work. And you know, then there's the mental health issues and that adolescence is expanding on both sides. It's this artificial maturity. So these are things as parents to be aware of and know that if you can do different types of things, like host the party.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah.
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A
They're not huge things like letting them play, like letting them go bike around the block on their own in their knee.
- [10:35]
B
Yep, yep.
- [10:36]
A
Yeah, it's really going to help. And that also helps with anxiety and depression as well because they have a little bit more control over their life. So can we talk about this other thing that you bring up which I think is important in terms of the empathy. So you talk about having a lot of empathy. So these kids are growing up in this world that is very artificial and they're not getting a lot of real world experience. Additionally, they're having to do a lot of side hustles. So you talk about, well, this one young adult shows up to work, they're late or they're tired, or you may not realize, hey, they've got two side hustles going. First of all, the side hustles are available. They weren't available before. So that's tricky. Right, Tim, you couldn't have some Internet business.
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B
Yeah.
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A
20 years ago you just could only have your one job. And the job often existed in a nine to five time frame. There probably wasn't much to do six to midnight. So now maybe they are working at Taco Bell as well. But they could also be having a side hustle that is Internet based. They're trying to make ends meet. So can you talk about this gig economy and the empathy that we need to have toward young adults today? They're having a hard time finding jobs in general.
- [11:48]
B
Yeah. I'll tell you, one of the focus groups I hosted was very revealing to me. So I did a truckload of focus groups of basically young people age 12 to 24. So they were entering the time they would get a job. And one young lady in California, I'll never forget talking to her. And I was saying to her, you know, the reputation your generation has with many employers is you don't really want to work. You know, you leave right at 5 o', clock, not a minute later you're out the door. And it seems like to a manager, they just don't want to work. She leaned in and said, Dr. Tim, can I tell you why I leave right at five? I said, absolutely. And she said, because I have to rush over to another job. I don't make enough money to pay the bills on this first one. And then after my second job, I rush over to take care of my mother who has stage four cancer. Suddenly I realized all behavior has a reason. Leaving at 5 doesn't necessarily mean they don't want to work. It may mean they're working really hard, but in this gig economy. So listeners, if you're not sure what this is, it just means they've got these side hustles and it may be driving Uber from 6 to 10pM or whatever, right? But these side hustles are necessary because inflation has outpaced pay scales. So it costs more to get a home today in relationship to what a salary might be. So that's one just know, looking ahead, that's a thing. I remember when my daughter asked me, dad, am I ever going to be able to afford a home? And I couldn't say, absolutely. I said, I don't know. I hope so. So we need to keep that in mind. But secondly, this is a very entrepreneurial generation. 72% of high school kids today want to be an entrepreneur. 7 out of 10.
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A
Wow.
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B
Now, will they all succeed? Probably not. But the fact that they say as they look out into the world, I'd rather start something than join something often tells me what they see seems antiquated. Run by someone over 50. Oftentimes it feels like it.
- [14:01]
A
Right? Because when you're 20, anyone who's over 30 seems like they're 50.
- [14:05]
B
Oh, it's so true. That is so true. Yeah. So anyway, I. I guess the bottom line, Jenny, is this. I felt like I deepened in my empathy for Gen Z as I met with them and I began to see they're going to make it just fine. But you, like you just said, we're going to have to coach more. So that. Age of authority going down, age of maturity going up. Here's what this is to me. I'm going to have to listen more than I've ever listened, but I'm going to have to coach more than I've ever coached. To make sure they're ready to take their place.
- [14:39]
A
Yeah, yeah. And to really be understanding because like you said, you had a. And I have so many notes from this book because there were so many things to think about and to take away. But you had talked about the. You know, the motivation becomes different when you are motivated because you're going to be able to buy your first home or you're getting married and now you're having kids or, or those types of things. And you talk about how this is not necessarily the situation for Gen Z. Like they, they may not have, they may feel more hopeless because oh, you say, I found it today there's a larger gap between wage and cost of living. Many of them feel hopeless. That makes them feel like a commodity that they could be used and get fired at any time. They are willing to work extra if the pay matches. So you say when you, you know, it started your career, you have all these hopes and dreams that these kids may not have. So that's important and to be aware about. As, as well.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah.
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A
They've got these really short workforce spans. Two years and three months is the average time Gen Z employee stay in a job. They may have 11 jobs in their 20s. They've exchanged the corporate ladder for corporate lily pad. That's hard.
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B
I know it is.
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A
It is.
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B
Especially when you're someone like me that goes. You're supposed to stay at a job to build tenure and, and reputation and you know, character and everything. So yeah, it really, really is a new day.
- [16:01]
A
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- [19:28]
B
You know what, Jenny, if you don't mind, I want to throw in a story that really, it was one of many stories that just catalyzed my hope in this next gen. So I have a friend named Colin Webb. This was in the first chapter of the book. I met Colin when he was in high school. Very smart kid. In fact, so smart. When he graduated high school, he was invited to go to mit. So he goes to mit. He graduates with many job offers, as you can imagine. But Colin decided to move to Detroit and work for one of the big three, General Motors. So he's put in the smart car division as a 22 year old young man. And immediately he looks around and sees, can I say, a traditional model of work. Okay, very traditional. And he starts thinking, oh, my gosh, this can be upgraded, this can be updated. We need better professional development. We have a, we need a better system over here. So he starts coming up with ideas. He takes them to his supervisor, but his supervisor pretty much shuts him down. He says, I didn't pay you to come up with these new ideas. Keep your nose down. Keep your, you know, keep your nose to the grindstone basically, and do your work well. Colin said, yes, sir. But he just knew he had some good ideas. So get this. He emails the CEO of General Motors, Mary Barracks, and he says, I have some good ideas. She replies. She emails him back and says, colin, these are very good ideas. Let me take them to my executive team. When she takes them to her executive team, they all agree these are really good ideas. But as you can imagine, as they make their way down the organizational chart to the middle manager, they die on the vine. In fact, it gets down to his supervisor again and he goes, I told you, keep your nose to the grindstone. And Colin was told, you gotta be around here eight years before you get to lead anything.
- [21:27]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [21:28]
B
Well, that was a death sentence. So by the end of the year, Colin quits his job. He didn't need to. This was unnecessary. He has since then started three other companies. One of them just sold and he's doing quite well. It's amazing. And he just sent me an email just the other day on this new robotic thing he's developed. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, General Motors could have really capitalized on this young man.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah.
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B
But their old school ways didn't meet this new school young man and they lost him.
- [22:02]
A
So anyway, I think you do a phenomenal job in this book. The future begins with Z of highlighting how incredible, how incredible Gen Z is. You would give another example of this young man named Tony.
- [22:16]
B
Yes.
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A
Tony works at this paint store and he starts mixing paints and making all these new colors and amasses over a million followers on social media, which that is hard to do. 1.4 million followers mixing these paint colors. And I'm sure he's like super engaging. And so then his company fired him. Instead of capitalizing on, well, maybe we could start selling some of these new pink colors or how could we use this social following to gain more customers or to sell our paint better? They fired him. So then he started his own paint store.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so it just reminds you that these are brilliant forward think. This is a forward thinking generation that is a lot more in touch with technology than you probably are. And so it is, it is to your benefit to, to like you said, help coach them and help teach them the professional language maybe that they don't know.
- [23:09]
B
Yeah.
- [23:09]
A
And and to you give tips like have a welcome wagon, like make sure they feel welcome, make sure that they really have a good first day experience. These things actually will matter a lot. So a lot of really practical advice in this book and a lot of things to be empathetic about. Who really wants to have 11 jobs in their 20s?
- [23:28]
B
I know they're not looking for that at all.
- [23:31]
A
Your 20s are really hard, you know, you're trying to like figure out who you are. I think one of the other things that you talked about that was super interesting that I never heard of and did not know Tim is you say older staff see their jobs as a large part of their identity.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah.
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A
Gen Z sees their jobs more as a hobby.
- [23:49]
B
Yeah.
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A
Which would make sense if it's not actually funding their adult life.
- [23:53]
B
Yeah.
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A
That's what hobbies do, right? Hobbies, like maybe you make a little money on the side, but they don't actually fund your life. So can you talk about. I mean, I think if someone here, when I read that I was like, oh, that's shocking. But also makes sense that would change your whole view of everything.
- [24:10]
B
Absolutely, yeah. One of the things I learned, it was also a discovery for me, Jenny, just like it was for you. When I heard them begin to talk about jobs as a hobby, I dug a little deeper and I found out while that may be off putting to an older person like me, it doesn't have to be. So Gen Z would look at Xers and Boomers where their job is a central focus of their life, central part of their identity, and they see the damage that that did. In fact, one of the reasons younger generations are demanding work, life, balance is they see what dad did to the family when he was never there and maybe, maybe led to a divorce, I don't know. But they don't want that. They see the damage it did. They don't want that. So Gen Z says, I wish my job could feel like a hobby. So listeners, think back to the last time you had a really great hobby. Maybe it's current, I mean maybe it's playing tennis or pickleball. Maybe it was collecting baseball cards. I remember as a kid I had a train set and a train, you know, village in my basement that I could hardly wait to get to after school. Think about it, with your hobby, you'll work hard at your hobby, right? You will. Secondly, you do it because you want to, not because you have to. That's nice. And three, your best work might be at 9pm, not 9am don't you want that for your team members on a team? So I'm saying to leaders, what if we could begin to profile this task we want them to do? Make it like your hobby. Build a passion for the good that it will do or the fun you could have using your talent and creating it. This has been a difference maker where I am. And so it's a different spin though. I'm this dutiful, punctual man, you know, because I'm in my 60s now. But boy, I've fallen in love with Gen Z and maybe they have the key to the future that I needed all along.
- [26:09]
A
I mean, how wise is that? How wise is a four day work week? I know that's wise. How wise is it to really enjoy it and to view parts of it as a hobby? And then you have these really cool ideas of like within your company. Could you make it more like a gig economy? Could you have side things that you know that they could do and get involved in and have more autonomy and you know, so all of these ideas and in the classroom I also think if you're if you're a teacher, if you're a homeschool mom, you can take some of these ideas and you can weave them in. You can weave them into your everyday. As we start, as we're sending our kids out into this world. You talk about Neil Postman. Neil Postman is one of my favorite people to talk about. He has died, and so I can't actually talk to Neil. So I always love to talk to people who are familiar with his work. He was a futurist, and there are futurists today as well, like Ray Kurzweil. And I think that stuff is really interesting to read about and to at least be exposed to. So one of the things that Neil Postman talked about, and we've never talked about this on the show, but I've read most of his books, so I'm interested in a lot of the things he says. He says there used to be more of a delineation between adulthood and childhood. So there used to be adult clothes and childhood clothes. I was just talking to someone this past week who said, I'm so excited for my daughter to be in my shoe size, because then we can. I can wear her shoes. And I thought of the Neil Postman book. That actually was not a thing. There was this really marked line between what adults knew and what kids knew because there was no. No media. And so there was this entrance into adulthood once you became an adult and then you were able to be exposed to the information. Well, television score for everyone. And so now you can be exposed to all sorts of things and then throw in AI. So can you talk about how that has changed the hierarchy? You know, I. You talk about paying your dues and you might be older, so you're like, well, I had to pay my dues and I had to wait this amount of time. But these younger people, they have more access to more information. But it's more than that. It's the fact that that access to information makes them cocky. I'll put in quotes. It makes them.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Feel like they've got this leg up. In some ways they do.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In some ways they don't, because information and experience are different. But they at least look at it like, you know, I know a lot. I'm exposed to a lot. So this is a big difference that people may not be aware of if they've not read books like Neil Postman's.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah, no doubt about it. So when educators measure maturation in young people, they measure four categories. Cognitive growth, biological growth, physical growth, social, and then Emotional. Here's what we're finding in today's young adults under 25. They're cognitively and biologically advanced. They've been exposed to so much information, age 11 or 12, it's ridiculous. They know more about, you know, stuff than I did at that age for sure. And they're biologically ahead. Think about Olympic athletes today versus 100 years ago. The nutrition, the fitness, the, you know, so we're ahead. They are ahead physically and cognitively. But Jenny, socially and emotionally, they're behind. I don't fault them for it. They're growing up in a world that we created, the adults. But culture has diminished their maturation. And sometimes it's because they didn't have a job at 16. Mom and dad said, focus on academics, just do your classwork. So their first job, first full time job after college might be the first job they've ever had. And so of course they show up 10 minutes late. They could do that. Where their college class. We need to say no, no, no, no. We need you here at 8. It's a lot of teaching stuff that you're going to think on the inside. Shouldn't you have learned that when you're 12 years old? Son, stop saying that. Don't gaslight. Bring them up to where they need to be. But Ginny, here's something you just made me think of that might be helpful, particularly if you're listeners or parents. I think culture, as I said, has done something magic and tragic to kids today. Childlikeness is going away, it's diminishing. Childishness is expanding. So think about this for a minute. Children are losing their sense of wonder and trust and innocence quicker today because they've been exposed to media and social media. But then they want to stay childish. Maybe 25, 26, 27. In fact, when young adults were asked, when does adulthood really begin? You know what they said? Having my first child. Well, people are not having their first child till 28, 29, 30s. Yeah.
- [30:50]
A
30 and 40.
- [30:52]
B
Yeah. So you can see the challenge this brings to our culture today. And maybe your family, folks that are listening right now. So I want to encourage you. They've got talent. Of course they do. Every generation has individuals full of talent. What we need to build is those skill sets that can be developed, those muscles, if you will, that are social and interpersonal skills, emotional regulation, meaning they can discipline themselves. So maybe you start feeling like an old school grandpa or grandma. But I'm telling you, it will differentiate them when they move out into the world and they take Their take their place.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah. This is good to know about. You say centuries ago, the life experiences of kids was limited. They were either illiterate or they didn't have much to read. Today, a young teen likely has unlimited exposure to information, even adult information. Absolutely. They're exposed to these things that a five year old or a seven year old would never have been exposed to men, mostly on a screen. Information is instant access on demand and usually free on television, computers, tablets and smartphones. The hierarchy has collapsed. And so what that does is if you're able to work with younger teammates, they're going to give you a jumpstart on the future because they know the language of their peers.
- [32:09]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
A
And they grew up in this digital world. You had this. It was like a joke, but it was like a dad who's like, like I can't get my iPad to work. And my employee, he already went to bed. He's five.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah. My IT guys asleep right now. That's right. I love it. But that. Isn't that the way things are going right now?
- [32:31]
A
It is. It is. So the Neil Postman information is intriguing, it's philosophical, and then it helps you to better understand why we're in this spot that we're in. You know, I love when I find a resource that helps make the Bible come alive not just for what it meant back then, but for what it means right now in our homes, our parenting and our everyday life. That's exactly what the NIV Application Bible does. It's brand new from Zondervan Bibles and it's packed with thousands of study notes drawn straight from the best selling NIV Application Commentary series. Throughout the pages you'll find original meaning notes that help you understand the context of each passage and application notes that connect these truths to modern life, including how we live, love and walk with God today. Every book of the Bible begins with an introduction for perspective and application. Plus there are questions for growth and even character of God. Articles that help you explore who he is and how his nature shapes our own story. It's beautifully designed, in full color, and it's one of those Bibles you'll reach for again and again. Find out more@nivapplication Bible.com that's nivapplication Bible.com Talking about why we're in the spot that we're in. One of the things you talk about in this book and in other books is that Gen Z has been led prescriptively. That's the phrasing they've been led Prescriptively. This is a big thing we talk about here because when you allow children to play and you give them time and space, they lead their own lives. But they are in this life where their whole school years often starting really young. It might be starting at age two. I actually spoke at this daycare that was very play based but for the government and they had to fill out these forms and they were having these conversations about how to kick a ball and they would teach the kids how to kick hard, you know, swing your leg back and make sure no one's around. And you know, they're little. This is starting really young. So you talk about how they're. They've been led prescriptively and so they're overwhelmed. Someone else has owned their life. We've conditioned them to embrace an external locus of control. You talk about Dr. Peter Gray, who's one of my favorite experts on this topic, and you say that even into college there are things like the Daisy bug, Rent A Mom.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:51]
A
Can you talk about where we're at? Talk about the Rent A Mom and, and further is that the parents are coming on the interviews or, you know, they go in for the interview and they're like, well, just hold on, my mom's outside. So I've had my interview. But now she's going to interview you. This is post college. In college there's Rent A Mom. Is it important that we try and avoid that? And if so, how do we do it?
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, well, I absolutely think we need to avoid it. Here's what I think has evolved over time. We parents have had fewer kids than 100 years ago. You might have had a huge family 100 years ago. We need them to work the farm. Well, today we're having one or two children, if not zero children, maybe three. But it's a smaller family. So parents number one could give way more attention to each individual child. And number number two, because mama knows best, we have prescribed, like you just said, we've been prescriptive. Do this, do this. Don't forget your backpack. Don't forget the quiz on Friday. Don't forget grandma's birthday next Tuesday. Don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. So we're conditioning our children to look outward to mama or teacher or employer for the answer. This is not going to help them become good adults. They're always looking outside. That's an external location of control. You build an internal locus when they begin to own their life. So when they're learning to tie their shoes, is it Quicker to do it for them at five. Yeah, don't do it. Take the extra time. Have them learn to tie their shoes. And even though I know it's harder to train them than to do it themselves, think long term. We always do better. In fact, here's what I would say. The further out you can see into the future, the better the decision you make today for your kid employers. The further out you can see, the better the decision you make for your employees. Tougher today, better tomorrow. Pay now, play later. But we are not good long term thinkers. We are instant access, immediate, you know, instant gratification. Come on, let's get honest. We all are. So that would be my little message on that. So I'm totally on the same page. You are, Ginny. And you're right, Mamas. I just read the data. 4 out of 5 Gen Zers are bringing a parent with them to the job interview. Four out of five.
- [37:12]
A
It's wild. I saw, I saw it too. It was like half of them are making the lunches still. I mean, it was astronomically high number. Now obviously Gen Z, like you said, goes down to pretty young ages. So people are like, well, Those are probably 14 year olds. But it was not. It was. It was actually adults that were being surveyed. So you talk, you could just see that would hamper a child development.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah.
- [37:35]
A
Yes, yes. And you say that this concierge service, this Rent A Mom.
- [37:41]
B
Yes, yes.
- [37:42]
A
Yeah. Students can have their bed made, their laundry done, their room tidied up, and even be picked up in a car by this Rent A Mom service. What is interesting to me about different career paths, like the fact that there is this Daisy bug delivery Rent A Mom service is no one has a job, no one starts a company unless there's people that are using it willing.
- [38:04]
B
To be a customer. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So there are.
- [38:07]
A
And there has to. There's not just one customer. I mean, this is a whole company. So there are a lot of customers here. This starts young. I think you have to start young. We have five kids, Tim, and I think I would have been a total tiger mom. I cannot. I can't. In fact, I think people are often shocked. They'll be like, is your kid coming to this thing tomorrow? I'll be like, I didn't know about it, but my kids know about it. So I do see that difference. And I wish I was not that way. It's. I feel embarrassed. I'm often humiliated, like caught off guard. But I'm like, there's so many layers of things that are happening that I. I cannot keep up with everyone's assignments and everyone's grades and everybody's social calendars, they have to own it. And so it's. It's actually like this. This part that feels like a weakness to me.
- [38:59]
B
Yeah.
- [38:59]
A
In some ways ends up being a strength. I actually feel like a lot of holes in your parenting end up contributing to strengths.
- [39:06]
B
No doubt about it. That's. In fact. Do you mind if I volley back on that?
- [39:09]
A
Yeah.
- [39:10]
B
I think great parenting, and for that matter, great leadership at work, is a combination of intentionality and laissez faire. Sometimes we let our kids go out like you do, and they skin their knee. Do we want them to skin their knee? Of course not. But that's the best way for them to realize, oh, I can survive that. I'm okay. I don't need to get anxious. This is a normal thing. And letting them do the job interview and saying, I'll pray for you, but you're on your own, buddy. Come on, think about that. That screams belief in them when we let them do it themselves. In fact, it screams, I don't think you can do it. When we join them all the time, we're sending signals we don't mean to send. So I'm telling you, you're spot on, Jenny, as you make these observations, I'm on the same page. We have to change the parent report card we've given ourself. In fact, I'll say this. When I was growing up many years ago, a good parent would say, well, I'm a good parent because I gave my child all they needed. Today it seems like a good parent said, I gave my child all they want. And that's not necessary necessarily could. Because their boss ain't gonna do that. Your husband's not gonna do that. You see what I'm saying? So I just think we need to be thinking long term and realizing I'm parenting for the future. I'm leading for the future, and they are the future. Yeah.
- [40:31]
A
Yeah. You use this word a lot, masquerade. So you talk about information has masqueraded as experience. Portable devices have masqueraded as community. And you talked about. Actually, I thought this was really deep. I'd never considered this. You. Then this is a quick change. This is something that changed within the last 10 to 15 years, for sure. 10, maybe 10, maybe even less. When you talked about how social media, when it started. Oh, this is so deep, Tim. So when it started, and everybody remembers when it started, I had actually A student. I was a teacher in the public schools and a high school math teacher. And one of my students opened my Facebook account for me.
- [41:12]
B
Oh, yes, they need. You need to help. Yeah.
- [41:15]
A
She was 14 years old. She thought I should have one. She opened it up for me and I, I'm like, I don't know what this is. So talking about how that next generation, they're the ones that, you know, are really in touch with what's going on in culture. So she starts this Facebook for me. And at the very beginning, it was, oh, I can reconnect with someone I went to college with. Oh, I can stay connected with my teachers after I graduate. That's what it was. It was providing connection with others. Your old friends from college, colleagues across the nation, your extended family that lives in other places. You say today it's mostly about performance.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah. Or performing.
- [41:53]
A
It's millions of amateurs performing for one another. Most of the connections are superficial, yet they remain because the connections feel beneficial. Our population today is the loneliest one in recorded history. So this is my question. Does Gen Z understand that this is a masquerade?
- [42:12]
B
I think the right answer is some do, some don't. I think many are savvy enough. In fact, many of them are savvy enough. They're going, I'm getting off social media. This is fake. I mean, this is a fake relationship. It's not really real. But many don't yet recognize the performance thing. Or if they do, they go, yeah, I am performing. I'm trying to become an influencer so I can monetize this, this app. And by the way, 1 out of 8 Gen Zers has monetized social media. It's amazing. Yeah. And 20% of those, there's so many. Ginny, get this. 20% of those who have monetized it, it's a full time job. They're on the sofa with their smartphone and a bag of Cheetos making six digits. So no wonder they don't want to join the normal workforce. They're going, I'm doing quite well right now.
- [42:59]
A
Yeah.
- [42:59]
B
Now certainly not all of them, but enough of them that this is a thing they aspire to. So of course.
- [43:05]
A
And then that's a really big draw. See, I think that's a really tricky part because I just, I met a couple just the other day we went to the Dove Awards and okay, this was an interesting experience, Tim. So we've got a good friend of ours that does marketing for the Gospel Music association in the Dove Awards.
- [43:19]
B
Yeah.
- [43:20]
A
She's been A good friend for a long time. Like since we were, you know, young adults ourselves. So we go and, and we, we went as influencers, we took our family, they're trying to get more families to come. So we go as influencers, we bring our Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids, but we're, we were the oldest ones there. Everyone else was Gen Z. And so some of these young adults that were brought in as influencers had only been doing it for a year or two. So not only can it be this becomes your full time job, also there is this very quick ramp up. It's like you could change your life in 18 months. And I, I could see how that would be super attractive as opposed to working in 9 to 5. Are you kidding me?
- [44:01]
B
For years and years and years. Yeah, you're right, it's very true. The world is enticing. You just made me think of something. Jenny, if you don't mind, this might be intriguing for your listeners. Part of the book I talk about what's happening in culture overall and that we as individuals ought to pay attention. The most famous anthropologist, I believe in the 20th century was Margaret Mead. We tend to quote her all the time, way back 50 years ago before she passed away, she said, I see a new stage of society emerging before our very eyes. And she said there's three eras or three societies that have existed in human history. Number one, this took place thousands of years ago. And she called it the pre figurative. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, the post figurative society. And what she meant by post was if you're a young person growing up thousands of years ago, you learned everything post. The grownups, your mom and dad were most of the information you got thousands years ago. And if you're a boy, you ended up doing what your daddy did. If you're a girl, you ended up doing what your mommy did. And you passed on the customs and traditions year after year, century after century, you learned everything post. With the dawn of the Enlightenment and later the Industrial Revolution, Margaret Mead said we entered the co figurative society where reason became king. And now young and old are learning things together. Like you just said, we're reading now, we're exposed to new information. So now you could choose your marriage partner for the first time in someone's life, okay, and your career and so forth. But Margaret Mead very wisely, even years ago looked out into the future and said, I think we're entering the pre figurative society, which means if you're a young person, you're probably going to figure things out. Faster than the adults to. And isn't that happening before our very eyes? It's that funny story about the. My tech guy's five years old, he's napping right now. You know, I'm telling you, we're laughing, but we should be paying attention. So how do we look ahead and say, I want to build skills in these young people. They're already got this. They already know more than I do about this. What I need to do is make up the skills they don't have so that they're strong and balanced and they can stand on our shoulders when it's time.
- [46:22]
A
Yeah. Yes. And that is the key because they really are skyrocketing. I mean, the fact that someone could be 23 years old and making a full time income as an influencer is, it's an enviable. I don't know if that's the right word or not.
- [46:36]
B
No, I think you're right.
- [46:38]
A
At the very least it's intriguing.
- [46:40]
B
Yeah.
- [46:41]
A
Because you're like, well, gosh, here I am, I'm 42, I'm stuck in this whatever. You know, I, I get two weeks of vacation a year. I'm really, really limited in my life. So you look at these younger, this younger generation and you're like, well, they figured something out. You know, it's interesting because our, I've talked about this just a few times, but our, our, one of our daughters, she is 15 years old and she is an, she's a personal trainer. She's certified through the National Academy of Sports Medicine. It's the highest level of personal trainer that you can be. And she came to me when she was 14 and said, I want to do this and sign me up. Can you, can you ask, I need you to call and ask if they'll take a 14 year old because this is what I want to do. And they took her and then she passed the test and she did a fantastic job. And that is an example of something that I didn't pass down at all and in fact know nothing about nothing.
- [47:29]
B
I don't know anything about it.
- [47:31]
A
And yet she figured that out on her own. And then after that was like, well, now I want to get my nutrition certification. Here's the textbook you need to buy me. Can you, can you get me this thing? And so the, the world of opportunity, I think about my own life. So I did a, I was a teacher.
- [47:45]
B
Yeah.
- [47:45]
A
So my master's degree in education. And then you have to keep up with your teaching certificate. Certification. So this is just how fast things have changed him. When I went to now, we had kids and I was like, I don't know if I'm going to go back to the classroom, but I would like to keep my certification up because otherwise there's all sorts of hoops you have to jump through if it lapses. I remember carrying my three young children that were like three, two and one through the snow in Michigan to sign up at the local community college to take my continuing education credits. And they were crying and they were like falling in the snow. And there was all these like young college kids that were looking at me, trying to juggle these three little kids. I couldn't even sign up for the classes. It was so stressful to stand in the line. I mean, they're just wailing. I left and my certification lapsed. And here it is not that long later. 10, 10 years. And I'm like, you can become a National Academy sports medicine personal trainer at 14 online.
- [48:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:45]
A
Ten years ago that was not available to me. It is a new day. And so it's. I think it's really important to be excited about the opportunities I think that are afforded to our young people. And then like you said, to, to help fill in the gaps. You talked about soft skills in this book, and I actually did not know the.
- [49:02]
B
The origin.
- [49:03]
A
Yes, the origin. So can you tell us about where soft skills was coined? Because I don't like the phraseology, but I think it's interesting if you know where it was coined.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah. So decades ago, the U.S. army, the U.S. military first began to use the term soft skills. Prior to that, they'd only use the term hard skills. And those hard skills were basically mechanical. You know, we had to use, we had to work with mechanics, artillery, tanks, jeeps, etc. Hard skills. But they began to realize the people skills that were necessary to inspire and motivate others were soft. I mean, they're not soft in one sense. They're very, very powerful. But when they say soft skills, they simply mean people skills. I'm reducing it to a word that I think we all would understand.
- [49:53]
A
And I wish that's what it was called.
- [49:54]
B
Yes, I do too. I do too.
- [49:56]
A
If you called it people skills, then I think people will pay more attention.
- [50:01]
B
I think you're right. So what we're learning now, with the introduction of AI into the workplace and many entry level jobs being taken by AI rather than that young person, I think these people skills will be what differentiate our young people. And so if you're a trainer, a leader, a parent, a Grandparent listening. I'm telling you, building interpersonal skills are going to be absolutely key to set apart that young person that's in front of you. I know I'm preaching to the choir. I know you get this, listeners, but I'm telling you, it takes so little to be above average right now. Can I say that? It takes so long. Yeah.
- [50:44]
A
Yes. That's huge. I just talked to this man, his name's Dr. Dan Willingham, and he had done this survey of a bunch of adults. And he said young teenagers. He said something like, teenagers have about five hours of leisure time a day.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah.
- [50:59]
A
That's how much time they have. And so if you were to structure time for a teenager, where do you think those five hours should go? So it's not just parents, it's all adults.
- [51:08]
B
Yeah.
- [51:08]
A
And. And they came back with, like, basically the top three things were reading, time outside, and time with friends.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
So, like, you know, we. We think that they should be spending about 70, about an hour, a little more of that time reading, and they should be spending, you know, so these are the three top things. And he said, what actually is happening is they're spending six minutes a day reading. You know, the discrepancies are so huge. But I think there's this fundamental understanding that real life. So obviously you learn so much about real life through reading. Obviously you learn so much about real life through being outside and being active and then. And then that social being with friends. And yet there's this displacement because almost exclusively all that time is going to screens. And so that's where this masquerade is coming from. So to your point, if you could just prioritize, like those three things, you know, and that there's a lot of time in childhood that goes to being outside and reading and being with friends, you're really going to give your kids a leg up. You talk about helping them with the basics. Margin movement, mindfulness, and management. I thought it was incredible that movement was in there, that margin. And you have this quote where someone, a young adult, said, I was a high school senior. I thought this was really big because this is the modeling. High school senior says, I haven't seen a healthy adult yet.
- [52:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:26]
A
Can you talk about the basics? Margin movement, mindfulness, maybe focusing on. Maybe let's focus on movement and margin.
- [52:33]
B
Okay, sure. Well, that's a chapter that I talk about the mental health challenges that we have today. The average teenager in America has the same mental health challenges or the same level of anxiety as a psychiatric patient did in the 1950s. It's. It's so sad. So these four words that begin with a letter M are four free of charge actions that we can take as leaders. So margin is simply work with your young person that's in front of you to have some space in their day that isn't noise and clutter. It's got. They got some space, some margin and.
- [53:12]
A
It'S quiet and it's like adults just don't even have that either. You know, older adults, older generation. Like we, we've all lost that. Actually. The statistics about, you know, there's statistics that people are reading less and everyone thinks it's the kids. It's the kids because they're on screens. And this Dan Willingham, this Dr. Dan Willingham said it's actually not that he's like, no, kids aren't reading anyway. So their numbers haven't gone down. The numbers that have gone down are the older generations because they're losing their margin.
- [53:40]
B
Yeah, for sure. And then the whole idea of movement. We all know that when we get out and move around, we are active. The endorphins inside of us are flowing. The happy chemicals, if you will, are flowing. And so let's say you've got a young person, let's say when I'm. Let's say I'm talking to parents. Study for the spelling test while you're shooting hoops outside, or take a walk and review for the history exam. But get moving. And we all know this, but we don't do it. We're too sedentary. So I'm saying if you want the mental health issues to go away or at least be reduced, practice those four Ms. I'm telling you, they're going to save you for sure.
- [54:22]
A
Help them with the basics, you say? Yeah. The secret they have to know, the secret of living well is to get off a screen for part of our day. It's huge. It's huge. So these soft skills, you go through six qualities that will increase in value in the AI. AI age. If you're a parent listening in, if you are a worker, I mean, we're all in the AI age. So you want these qualities that are going to increase in value. And you talk about the people skills, you say, smart technology cannot offer that human touch. I believe human elements will always be in demand. One of the six qualities that I thought was really intriguing was about decision making.
- [54:59]
B
Yeah.
- [54:59]
A
And the timing, the timing of it. So the timing matters a lot. And the world is changing rapidly, so you kind of got to be on your Toes a little bit. And you had a quote from John Maxwell. You say the wrong decision at the wrong time can be a disaster. But a wrong decision at the right time is also a mistake. And a right decision at the wrong time leads to unacceptance. It's, it's. A right decision at the right time is what results in success. These are things that you learn through experience.
- [55:27]
B
Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, no doubt about it. And that's why we need to give them the experience, even if it means some failures along the way.
- [55:36]
A
Yeah. And adaptability is the most relevant leadership skill.
- [55:40]
B
Oh my gosh. The rapid pace of change requires us to be adaptable. Yeah. So, so true.
- [55:47]
A
Yeah. So whether you are employer or a parent or you're just live, you're. We're all living in this. This is, this is critical information to be aware of.
- [55:56]
B
I agree.
- [55:56]
A
I interrupted you though. Were you going to say something?
- [55:58]
B
Well, I was just going to say I keep in my mind going back to an analogy, it's a true story, but it serves as a great picture for us. Back in 2017, a woman who lived in New Hampshire happened to wander into a thrift store. Thrift store. She started browsing and she saw an old picture frame that she thought, ah, maybe I could restore this and sell it. So she bought it and even though she wasn't sure she could do anything with it, it only cost $4. So she spent the $4 and got home. When she showed it to her family and friends, most of them said, oh yeah, that frame's nice enough. But one of them said, wait a minute, the picture inside that frame, I think that might be a famous painter. And she takes it down to a museum to get it evaluated. And sure enough, it was an NC Wyeth painting 100 years ago that she sold for $191,000. No joke. Not kidding. So she spent $4, got $191,000. So here's the picture I'm giving you, no pun intended. It wasn't the frame that was valuable, it was what was inside the frame. And sometimes employers, we spend a little bit of money to hire that Gen Z or doesn't really cost us a lot. And what we realize, or maybe what we fail to realize, it's what's inside that frame. And they could be so valuable, but we got to stop treating them like commodities that we spend, use and then throw away, but more like currency that we invest in because it's going to grow. And if we can do that, I think they're going to have a future, but what we're going to have to put up with is they're different. So my favorite quote in the book is not from me, it's from my friend Teresa. You'll love this, Jenny.
- [57:42]
A
Oh, I like it. I think what it is, it's the one that's at the beginning of the book.
- [57:46]
B
Yeah, that's right. Generation Z is the sandpaper on my leadership I did not know I needed.
- [57:52]
A
I love it. Well, because it just shows that we all grow. We all grow. Like when instead of being against or instead of saying we're not going to hire, it behooves all of us to be more empathetic, to try and put yourself in the situation of someone else's life experience. Who didn't get to spend their childhood, you know, running around in the neighborhood and. And who, you know, was basically co opted by these tech companies to take away all their time and hobbies and what must that be like then enter into this adult world. So there's a lot there to think about. And I love the empathy piece of the book. You had a part that said nine places to Stay Silent as a leader. And I thought that that was so applicable to parents as well. So it's really good. There's a lot of overlap here. And I just wanted to end with this. Leaders are dealers of hope.
- [58:43]
B
Yeah.
- [58:44]
A
And I thought, gosh, that's a really good wrap up. Because there is a lot of complaining and grumbling. And instead of doing that, you know, read your book. It's called the Future Begins with Z. It's available now. Instead of doing that, instead of being the one that's complaining and grumbling and not hiring any young person right out of college, instead of doing that, be a dealer of hope.
- [59:05]
B
Yeah, love it. That's exactly right. That was Napoleon Bonaparte centuries ago, but he's spot on.
- [59:12]
A
I'll attribute that to you. Yeah. So great. That's so funny. I take notes and sometimes I'll put, like, who said it? And sometimes I just put the quote. And then every once in a while people are like, well, it actually wasn't me who said that.
- [59:26]
B
Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [59:29]
A
But be a. But be a dealer of hope. And it will benefit everyone. It will benefit actually our culture as a whole, but it will certainly benefit. We all will grow through it. And everyone can kind of plug the holes that they have in this age of rapid change. So, Tim, I so appreciate it. You have written so many books. This is just one of many. So people can start here and they can go to your website and find. It's called Habitudes.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah. Habitudes is a series of conversations with the next gen. Yeah.
- [59:57]
A
And you can do that in your family. There's a lot of.
- [59:59]
B
That's right. It started at.
- [60:01]
A
Yeah.
- [60:02]
B
My dinner table. Yeah. Yeah. We're two kids. Yeah.
- [60:05]
A
So if you are wanting extra help in this area and you're wanting just things to do around the dinner table and deep conversation starters. Our kids love deep conversation starters. They want to talk about all of these things. You can find them with Habitude. So I'll make sure. I'll put the link in the show notes. Tim, thank you so much for helping us to better understand those who come after us. And we would want to model then for them to understand Gen Z. We want to model. Gen Z is going to have to understand Gen Alpha. Gen Alpha is growing up in. In the total AI.
- [60:32]
B
Yeah. World.
- [60:34]
A
I mean. Yeah. Nobody even really knows what the ramifications of that are, but there will be some. And so what we're doing is we're modeling acceptance and looking for the hope and helping everyone to grow along the way. So I so appreciate it.
- [60:47]
B
You bet, Jenny. Great to be with you.