1KHO 616: The Best Ways to Raise Resilient Children | Michael Gurian, The Wonder of Boys

Summary

Podcast Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 616: The Best Ways to Raise Resilient Children
Host: Jenny Urch
Guest: Michael Gurian, Author of "The Wonder of Boys"
Date: November 10, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the foundational question of what children, especially boys, need to become resilient, thriving adults. Host Jenny Urch welcomes Michael Gurian—best-selling author, marriage and family therapist, and leading researcher on gender neuroscience—to discuss lessons from his classic book The Wonder of Boys, updates from broader research over the last three decades, and actionable guidance for families striving to nurture healthy, capable children in a modern world challenged by technology, disconnection, and the breakdown of community.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Gurian’s Background & Mission

• Timestamps: 01:38–04:15
• Gurian is a marriage and family therapist of 35 years inspired by both professional and personal experience—as a father and grandfather—to better understand how boys and girls differ in brain structure and developmental needs.
• Noted early on (1980s–90s) that U.S. schools struggled with boys due to a lack of understanding of male vs. female brain differences and learning styles.

2. The Importance of the “Three Family System”

• Timestamps: 07:16–15:41
• Gurian’s cross-cultural studies (experiences in Hawaii, India, Turkey, U.S.) revealed that healthy child rearing universally depends on three layers of support:
  • Nuclear Family: Immediate family; sometimes now a single parent.
  • Extended Family: Could be blood relatives or close community members (godparents, mentors).
  • Tribal/Community Group: Faith groups, clubs, or broader community “village.”
• Key Point: The breakdown of this system in Western cultures puts excessive pressure on parents and leaves children lacking in real-world mentorship, support, and resilience-building.

"The best way to raise resilient children... is in a three-family system. Millennia of anthropological data shows this."
— Michael Gurian (08:31)

• Lack of three-family structure drives children toward artificial nurturance—digital screens and social media—which does not provide the brain development or support that real relationships do.

3. Stress, Abuse, & Community Support

• Timestamps: 14:06–15:41
• Data shows mothers, often as primary caregivers or single parents, are statistically more likely to physically abuse children, largely due to lack of support and increased stress.
• Reinforces the necessity of re-building community and “eyes” on children for both development and safety.

4. Divorce and Its Impact on Children

• Timestamps: 19:04–26:00
• Discussions with Jenny Urch and referencing Dr. Warren Farrell’s The Boy Crisis, highlight:
  • Divorce is one of the most devastating traumas for children ("It is the central event of their lives”), particularly if it occurs in late childhood or early adolescence.
  • Gurian emphasizes his practice philosophy: he aims to help couples stay together when possible for the sake of the children—unless there’s abuse or serious illness/addiction.

"Most of our emotional life as human beings, it doesn't come from our marriage. That's where people get tripped up."
— Michael Gurian (23:20)

• Advice: Rely on broader social connections—not just a spouse—for fulfillment and take pressure off marriage as a singular source of meaning.

5. 25 Words on What Boys Need, with Focus on Sports & Sacred Work

• Timestamps: 26:00–41:42
• Gurian summarizes what boys (and children in general) need:
  • Risk and Challenge: Essential for building resilience; sports or physical activity provide structured risk and teach lessons through failure, teamwork, and mentorship.
  • Two Hours of Physical Activity Daily: Vital for brain and emotional development, not just physical health.
  • Sacred Work (Chores & Jobs): Builds agency, maturity, and dopamine pathways associated with true accomplishment (not empty digital hits). Start with small tasks in toddlerhood and progress to real-world teen jobs.
  • Mentors outside the nuclear family: Coaches, employers, and other adults can profoundly shape a child’s self-concept and maturity.

"The body builds the brain. Learning is not all in your head, it's in the movement."
— Jenny Urch (30:04)

"If a child is not doing their chores, you just take every device away until they're doing their chores. The chores are more important than anything they can get from the internet."
— Michael Gurian (42:24)

6. Rituals, Adolescence, and the Second Birth

• Timestamps: 43:29–54:01
• Many cultures have lost formal rites of passage, especially for boys, who—unlike girls with the monthly physical marker of menstruation—have no internal signal that marks adulthood.
• Parents are encouraged to build meaningful, challenging “rites of passage” into adolescence for boys: structured, communal milestones to mark adult independence and responsibility.
• Mothers, in particular, must “let go” emotionally and physically to allow boys to gain independence; failure to do so results in unhealthy adult dependencies and identity struggles.

"Every society put boys through rites of passage knowing that girls had an internal rite of passage."
— Michael Gurian (47:11)

"The message mothers need to give is: every day you need me less and less, and that's okay."
— (49:46)

7. The Father’s Role and Books for Dads

• Timestamps: 54:01–54:48
• Gurian calls for more men to learn about child-rearing and intentionally participate (“Men need to start buying and reading child rearing books.”).
• Points out that in early years, men are often least prepared or trained for hands-on nurturing.

8. Screen Time, Video Games, and Digital Risks

• Timestamps: 54:48–57:05
• Concrete recommendations based on age:
  • Example: 10-year-old boy—no more than 2 hours of screens daily (including school use), no video games on school nights, and no smartphone before ages 13–15.
  • Parental monitoring is crucial: children do not have a “right to privacy” on their browser history if the device is parent-owned.
  • Risks from fast-moving digital media and pornography are especially pronounced in boys.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the three-family system:
  "We want these kids to mature... The three-family system is universal, and its breakdown has left kids under stress, lacking in mentoring, love, and real-world resiliency."
  — Michael Gurian (08:31)
• On sports and movement:
  "Two hours at least of intense exercise for these young guys per day... it's not only good for the body, it's crucial for the developing brain."
  — Michael Gurian (28:12)
• On childhood and brain development:
  "The childhood exists as a training ground to become a mature adult. It's not for being entertained eight hours a day."
  — Michael Gurian (41:04)
• On mothers and boundaries:
  "The message mothers need to give is: every day you need me less and less... Most American men carry some unresolved issue with their mothers to their marriages."
  — Michael Gurian (49:46 and 50:00)
• On fatherhood and learning:
  "Caring for a child is something we are least trained to do well, especially if we’re male."
  — Michael Gurian (54:22)

---

Additional Resources & Further Reading

• Michael Gurian’s books:

  • The Wonder of Boys
  • Saving Our Sons
  • Minds of Girls
  • Lessons of Lifelong Intimacy
  • The Purpose of Boys

• Podcast: Wonder of Parenting (with resources and rites of passage guides for parents)

  • WonderOfParentingPodcast.com

---

Final Segment: Childhood Memory

• Timestamps: 58:21–58:59
• Michael shares a favorite outdoor memory: playing soccer by a river in India with local boys, no shared language needed—illustrating the universal power of outdoor play and childhood connection.

---

Conclusion

This episode is a treasure trove of practical, research-backed advice on how to raise resilient, capable boys (and girls) in the modern world. Gurian’s message is timely and urgent: real-life challenges, movement, work, broad communities, and sacrificial love lay the groundwork for resilient adulthood—not endless entertainment and digital distraction. Parents are encouraged to build networks, establish boundaries, insist on work and chores, and personally model the maturity and independence they hope to foster.

For more: Visit Michael Gurian’s resources, read his books, and check out the Wonder of Parenting podcast for ongoing support.

Transcript

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You, you'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code space80@talk.

[Jenny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I'm so excited for today's guest. I read this book that is, it's kind, it's an older one. But I think it is incredible, Michael, that you can write these books and you never know. You never know when someone's good. It's like it lives on forever. So I've got the 10th edition of this book called the Wonder of Boys. And you have, you have got so many books. You've got books about the girls. You, you've got, you've got a new book. The newest book is called Boys A Rescue Plan. And you've written, I mean, how many 20 plus books, all sorts of languages. New York Times bestseller. Michael Gurion, welcome.

[Michael Gurian]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Jenny Urch]

Jenny, tell us the background because you're really putting out so much incredible information for parents. I think it's a tricky day and age, especially with technology to raise children, boys or girls. What's your background on helping families?

[Michael Gurian]

Yeah, so I'm a marriage and family therapist. So I have been for about 35 years. And I had my wife Gail and I, two daughters and then a couple grandkids. Now I got very interested so many years back, you know, we're talking 30 plus years back. 35 years ago, I, I got very interested in neuroscience to try to help people understand how differently Male and female brains operate. So in other words, how, you know, we come, we come at things somewhat differently. And I was studying preschool systems and school systems and it was very clear, you know, we knew this back there in the late 80s, early 90s, that the school systems were having difficulties with boys and they, the folks didn't understand, I mean, educators were never trained in male and female brains. So they, they just kind of defaulted toward what worked for the female brain in classrooms and in schools without realizing that the male brain does things differently. And so guys were getting punished and they were, you know, they were dropping out and the stats. So this has been going on for decades. And of course I'm a father of two daughters, so I've also written, as you said, a number of books on girls, on family development, on marriage, you know, so it's not, I wasn't only concerned about boys, but it was so obvious that this was going on. So then about 29 years ago now, we started the Gurion Institute and that started as a pilot in Missouri because of the school shootings. And so the, the governor there asked me and the staff there at the University of Missouri Kansas City to do two year pilot to try to put this kind of Gurion theory and strategies into the schools to see if it would help with the boys because the boys were, you know, kind of lost. Well, we still see it today, I mean in the last, and it did work by the way. I mean, so, so if folks go to gurianinstitute.com, we've had now 29 years of doing this in schools. The, you see it a lot today now, like we're getting a resurgence of interest in trying to understand boys, I think out in the public, you know, and so we've seen waves of this and I'm really glad of this wave. And we've also seen waves of trying to help girls, you know, and help women. And I've been involved in those too. So nothing exclusive of each other. But I, I, I think that thing with the boys, that's a through line that now I think the schools are kind of getting ready to deal with, I hope.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yes. And there's so much to learn in here and then you can go on. There's like book after book after book after book. So you're going to like, you love this one. Then you can read more and more and more and you talk about this one in particular was rejected by 26 publishers because at that time there was, they're looking for books on girls. But to Your point there, especially now, I think there's constantly a need, really to talk about both. I read a book called American Girls by Nancy Jo Sales about girls and their exposure to social media and their pressure to send nude photos and all of these different things. And. And then you also get the perspective of the. Of the boy experience as well, the adolescent experience, but that one focused on girls. And then, you know, you read, you. We need both.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Especially with these strong cultural forces. We absolutely need both. You have got such an interesting life story, M. Michael, born in Hallelu, Hawaii. So you. You're born in Hawaii. And then you have lived so many different places, India, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Colorado. And you have experienced all of these different cultures in ways that kids are raised. Can you talk about that influence on your life and how that's affected what you've studied as you become an adult?

[Michael Gurian]

Well, definitely, I. When I was looking at, all right, what are solutions for girls, for boys, you know, for families, like, I wanted to find what was going on in the brain and in genetics, what is actually working in every human being that we can look at. Because, of course, we're in America here. I know we have listeners all over, but, you know, we have our own culture. Right, but what about. What about from other cultures? And so back in the 80s, I did two years of research in Turkey, taught it in Ankara, and then research all over Turkey, villages, urban, and compared patterns, play patterns, work patterns, conversational patterns with boys, girls, and then compared, you know, those, whether they're village or city with us. And it was. It became very clear what was clear to me as a boy living in India, it was very clear that there must be some, what we call genomic patterns, which means that there's stuff coming in on the genome, right? XX and xy, because boys in Turkey, boys in India, girls in Turkey, girls in India, in the US Et cetera, have patterns. And they're the same patterns, no matter the culture. So that was very important. And that then sent me looking at brain scans to try to figure out, okay, that must mean that the male and the female brain operate differently, but our systems don't know that. You know, our parenting systems don't necessarily know that, or our school systems, et cetera, even workplaces don't know it. So that's what happened for me in living abroad and studying abroad and then and teaching abroad was the gathering of that vision from that research. And then from there, it was after I came back, Gil and I came back from my wife and I, Gail came back from Turkey, so 88, 89 that I started organizing the research and then developing the books and so on.

[Jenny Urch]

So you as an adult, you go and you research and you see these similarities. And then as a child, you talked about living in small cities versus small towns, big cities, and the differences in the family structures, I guess you would say. So one of the things that you talked about is just basically there's no, you know, we're parenting a lot in the United States with no support. And you have this concept of, and this book. I, I kind of, I love grabbing the books that are a little bit older because these things still hold true and they still matter a lot, but just more support. You talk about actually a three families. You say, right, boys need three families to raise them. Trying to raise them in one family is not enough. Can you talk about since you've seen it? You know, you're living in India as a child and so you're experiencing this extended group of adults and mentors who are pouring into your life. And then you see the difference here in the United States, often where it's a single parent and additionally there is not that familial support. And even in the social structures, often there's not more support either. So it really makes parenting a lot harder. And. Yeah, and being a child, it makes being a child harder as well.

[Michael Gurian]

It does, yeah. Yeah. So the three family system is sort of the universal way that children, boys, girls, everybody have been raised in the past. So no matter the culture, there's been a three family system. I just, what I just do is define it. And of course, as you're pointing to, there's somewhat of a breakdown of that in some Western cultures in the US in various parts, you know, where it doesn't exist. And then that creates a lot of stress on the child, not only stress on the parents, but a lot of stress on the child's development. So the, the first family, of course, is the nuclear unit. And most typically that nuclear unit is going to be male and female, a mom and a dad, but doesn't necessarily have to be, but it's going to be a nuclear unit. Sometimes that nuclear unit now is a single parent. Okay. So that we got to, we got to remember that wrapped around the nuclear unit is the, what we call the second family or extended family. And that can be non blood kin. You know, it can be really, really good friends, godmothers, godfather, you know, they're not, they're not grandma, grandpa, they're not aunt, uncle, they're not blood. But it could be Blood, you know, and then that would be great. We hope it is. So either way, that's a second family and those people are attached because these family systems are based on attachment. So the nuclear family obviously is very attached, right, to the child. Primary attachments. The extended family is very attached. Not quite as much as the mom and dad, of course, but very attached, you know, so they're really looking out for that child. So we've got a nuclear and an extended family system looking out for that child. That means mentoring that child, teaching that child skills, giving that child love and attention, problem solving with that child when issues come up, you know, et cetera. The third family was always the tribe. So in a village it would be, it takes a village, right? The third family would be that in a city, the third family tends to be the tribe. Like you, you might have your faith community. If we look back to the past, you know, no matter what religion you're raised, you know, you go to synagogue, you go to church, wherever it is, you got a faith community and you've got mentors and that come through the faith community. But it could be another kind of community, could be clubs, it could be, you know, there was a, there was a tribal family out there that would, would nurture the extended family, which nurtures the, the nuclear family. So the breakdown that occurred, and I'm going to choose the US Even though they're probably listeners elsewhere, they'll recognize it. The breakdown that occurred that has profoundly affected our kids in, in two ways. One is they don't have enough nurturing because they don't have the three families. And number two, it sends them to screen, social media, et cetera. This is all kids, boys, girl, everybody. It sends them into the artificial and digital world where they feel like they're getting nurturance. And we can talk about that in a moment. They are not from a brain based point of view, they are not getting the kind of nurturance that real relationships give them. So that's number two. But number one is our kids are just not getting enough love, attention, problem solving, mentoring, parenting, you know, grandparenting, etc. And so there are gaps in their development and they're under significant stress. It's a very stressful life really. And there are gaps. And then one of the ways that the parents try to fill in the gaps is by helicopter parenting or over parenting or whatever one wants to call it. Where then you've got, you know, parents who are like totally focused on this kid and constantly intervening and trying to keep the kid from danger. And so the kid's not building resilience. The kid would be building resilience. If it was in a three family system, the overprotection probably would not occur. But on the other hand, the child could be underprotected. Without three families, you know, there could be abuse that goes on. There's also things going on because you don't have these other people helping. So it really the best way to raise kids. And we have millennia of anthropological data showing this the best way to raise resilient children. And that's what we're all after really. Right. We're all really after resilient children. We want these kids to mature. And when they're nowadays, when they're, you know, early 20s, let's say they've matured. 100 years ago it would have been when they were 15, but now we're going with the 20s. We want them to have matured and be resilient so that they can then go and have families and work and live for service and have a purpose. Right. Well, they got to be resilient, they got to be help the kids. And unfortunately with the breakdown of the three family system and then when you have often all the pressure is on one person. Usually it's a mom, a single mom. So the single mom is trying to do what all three families have done in the past. She's trying to do it all. She's doing her best, but you know, very difficult task. And I think it's one of the reasons that moms like especially of sons, that single moms kind of, they get an intuition when the, when the boy is 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Somewhere in there they go, oh, I gotta get some men involved. You know, even if the dad's not around, something could happen. But you know, I gotta get men involved because they, they get it, they get it. They know that this child needs more than this one parent. So that's the three family system.

[Jenny Urch]

I really have never heard of that. And I'm a pretty big reader. So I thought was that's a gurian. Yeah, it was really eye opening and just in the importance of that support and trying your best in whatever way that you can to extend this nuclear family out so that there's more support for the kids. I didn't know that mothers. I was so surprised to read this. You said mothers are most likely to abuse their kids.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh yeah. In terms of physical abuse, actually. Statistically, yeah, it's more moms than dads. In a way it makes sense. The moms are with the child more.

[Jenny Urch]

Yep.

[Michael Gurian]

Right. I mean, even with family systems changing, statistically, moms tend to spend more time with the kids. And that's for two reasons. I mean, it may be because they've chosen to be stay at home moms, which is great. And. Or so the dad's not around as much. Yeah. Or, or it could be that they're constantly engaged with this child, you know, so this child is not roaming free. Roaming. They're constantly engaged. And so with all that, they tend to be the ones who hit more and so on. And I know people are surprised by that because all the imagery from the culture is that dads are the violent, abusive ones and moms are the gentle, you know, compassionate ones. And often that's true. But statistically, yeah, moms do tend to hit their kids more than dads do.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, we need support. The support would really help.

[Michael Gurian]

Yeah, they get stressed out. I mean, that's what's happening.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, the three family system helps to support the, the mom, but then also there's extra eyes, you know, watching and seeing what's going on. Boys are more likely than girls to be physically abused by a parent. The parent most likely to physically abuse a boy is a mother. The mother is home with the kids more, thus she's got more opportunity to abuse. And single moms with little support and face, with unruly boys, which they are, you know, they got a lot of energy, can end up abusing out of sheer frustration. So it's just really important. It really drives home the point that there's gotta be more people involved and, and however you do that, you know, a lot of books I think about building community, but it's so important.

[Womb Bikes Advertiser]

Ginny here with 1,000 hours outside, if you're like me, you know that the best gifts aren't the ones that end up on a shelf. They're the ones that get muddy, sun soaked and full of memories. That's why I am so excited to tell you about our friends at Womb Bikes, a family focused company that truly gets what childhood should feel like when Womb makes the lightest, smartest, safest bikes on the market. Designed specifically for kids. From their very first balance bike all the way to those confident neighborhood cruisers. Every detail is built for little riders, from easy reach brakes to perfectly balanced frames. So kids don't just learn to ride, they learn to love the ride.

[Jenny Urch]

And this holiday season, you can give.

[Womb Bikes Advertiser]

A gift that leads to a thousand hours of joy, confidence and connection. Outside. Head to womb.com and use the code outside.10 for 10% off new bikes and accessories. But hurry it is only good until November 15th. That's womb w.com and use code outside 10 for 10% off by November 15th. This year don't just give a bike, give them a reason to ride and a lifetime of adventure. As the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all and for me, Quince delivers comfort that lasts. They have it all. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim that never goes out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Perfect for gifting or let's be honest, upgrading your own wardrobe before those holiday photos. Honestly, Quince's Italian wool coats are at the top of my list because the cut feels designer, the quality rivals high end brands, but the price is about half because Quinn's works directly with ethical top tier factories and skips the middlemen. And so you get luxury quality without the luxury markup. For me this season my go to has been my Quince Cashmere because it is soft, classic and somehow it goes with everything. Oh and my all black Quint's puffer jacket is always at the ready for those chilly mornings. So step into the holidays with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside free shipping 365 day returns. Quince.com outside. You know how they say hindsight is 20 20? If you're like me, you've probably thought I should have paid attention in history class more or bought bitcoin years ago back when it was a penny. It's easy to look back and have regrets both big and small. We are referred to as the FOMO generation after all.

[Jenny Urch]

But there's one thing you really don't.

[Womb Bikes Advertiser]

Want to miss out on, and that's protecting your family's future. For around the same price per month as one of your streaming services, you can finally cross life insurance off your list with selectquote.com if you are new to life insurance, you're not alone. For over 40 years, Select Quote has helped more than 2 million Americans get the coverage they need. Over $700 billion in coverage and counting. They do all the hard work for you, comparing plans from trusted top rated insurance companies to find the one that.

[Jenny Urch]

Fits your health, your Lifestyle and your.

[Womb Bikes Advertiser]

Budget and get this many people can get covered the same day up to $2 million worth with no medical exam required. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than [e-mail] 1000 hours save more than 50% on term life [e-mail] 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours.

[Jenny Urch]

I read a book, and you had mentioned him in your book by Dr. William Ferrell Farrell. Did I say that name right?

[Michael Gurian]

Dr. Warren Farrell.

[Jenny Urch]

Dr. Warren Ferrell. Yes, I said it wrong. Dr. Warren Farrell. I read the Boy Crisis, and then I read Rollmate to Soulmate, which came out recently.

[Michael Gurian]

Yep, he's great.

[Jenny Urch]

This may sound. It's a little bit of an embarrassing thing to say, but I'm gonna say it anyways. It was his book, the Boy Crisis, that really changed my mind about divorce. Not that I was like, we're gonna get divorced, but that marriage is hard. And you're a marriage counselor and therapist. So you're a marriage therapist. That's what you said, right? Marriage and family therapist. Marriage and family therapist. And so obviously, you know, you've had all. For 35 years, you've had all, I'm sure, all sorts of scenarios with hard situations. Marriage is hard and the boy crisis. And because half of them are ending in divorce, it feels kind of normal. Michael doesn't. If it kind of feels like, well, you. You know, every other person is ending in divorce. And it. It's just sort of this norm in our culture. But the boy crisis really drove home the point that this affects kids quite a bit, which we, I guess, should know. But I think because it's so common, it sort of feels like it's not that big of a deal. And so you talked about it quite distinctly in this book, the Wonder of Boys. And I want to read a few things, and I. I guess it's kind of a tricky thing to talk about. Right. People feel judged. Some people are in really extreme situations. But you say divorce is one of the most devastating traumas to a child's growth. A certain amount of family upheaval is normal and even useful in an adolescent's growth. But divorce is very dangerous to the emotional life of the adolescent, especially when that divorce happens late in the first decade or early in the second decade of the boy's life. We all leave childhoods with wounds. You know, you talk about how these can transform into gifts, but divorce is Particularly harmful, the destructive effects of children, of divorce. Someone says, we didn't see a single child who was well adjusted, and we didn't see a single child to whom divorce was not the central event of their lives. And you have some wording in here where you talk about how obviously there are certainly sometimes some extreme circumstances, and so that happens, but it is a really hard thing to talk about. But I also think when I read those things, it light to fire under me to fight for it more.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh, yeah, I hear you, I hear you. Yeah, I. When I. So I see clients and I always, I ask them, you know, do you have kids? If they come in as a couple, you know, do you have kids? Because usually if they're going to come to a counselor, there's something going on, right? And a lot of the time it's, I think we're close to divorce, you know, help. Help us. So I asked them that, and I disclose that if they do have young kids, not if their kids are grown, but if they have young kids, I just immediately disclose to them. If you see me as a counselor, what I'm going to do is ask you probing questions to make sure that everyone is safe, right? That there's no abuse and that there isn't significant mental illness or significant addiction, which then would probably necessitate separation at least. And then I'm going to probe for that. And in most cases that does not exist. And then I'm going to try to help you stay together. So I disclose this to them, you know, and because I disclose it to them, it's okay. Then they can make a choice, oh, well, do I want to stay with you or not? And it's for the same reasons, you know, that I've written in the books that if we can help the parents stay together, as long as there isn't, you know, the exceptions. We just talked about abuse. You know, as long as there isn't something, if we can help them to stay together, at least until the kids are grown, then there's less trauma on the kids. Now, you know, we should say some kids, they're just so glad their parents divorced and they don't really have much trauma. And that's great. You know, obviously, that's. That's wonderful. But so many kids do have so much trauma when the parents divorce and the parents, unfortunately. I wrote a book that came out about eight years ago called Lessons of Lifelong Intimacy, which is on marriage and intimacy. And I, I looked in there, you know, I looked at the research on what is the primary reason that people get divorced, the primary reason is not, in fact, abuse. That's a very small number. It's not mental illness. That's, you know, if you include depression, it's a larger number, but it's. It's still a smaller number. The primary reason is that one of the people at least says, I'm not emotionally fulfilled. You know, we have creative differences. Let's say, you know, I am not emotionally fulfilled, and I want to be emotionally fulfilled. And so some of that can be, he doesn't see me or she doesn't see me, or he won't open his heart up to me, or she won't open her heart up to me. And that's the primary reason is there. And women instigate 65%, around two thirds of divorces. Okay. So if that's the reason, that's when I'm going to try to keep them together, because that's solvable. You know, we can really get. We can get everyone to get just enough of the emotional life they need from the marriage. And also, we have to remember that most of our emotional life as human beings, it doesn't come from our marriage. We have gotten it into our heads that our marriage has to look a certain way emotionally for we, for us. I'll use myself here. For me to be satisfied, for me to be satisfied, it has to be blank, right? And blank is usually abc. And A is I need him or her to talk more. I need him or her to do this, do this, do this. So most of our emotional life, we actually should be getting from the rest of our lives, from our work, from our purpose, from our. Our friends, girlfriend, you know, female friends, male friends, clubs, faith communities, you know, the other 50 people that we're relating to. And then we definitely get a lot from our marriage. Of course we should. I mean, Gail. Gail and I, my girl, my wife passed away two years ago, but she and I were married 37 years. We were together 40. We definitely got emotional life from each other, but we also got it from elsewhere. So part of what I try to do is to take the. Help them take the pressure off of the marriage so the marriage can survive and at least get the kids grown. And it. That disclosure that I tell them is specifically because I want to up the odds that their children won't have that divorce trauma. Even knowing that some kids go through divorces and don't have significant trauma, that we know that, but the odds are just really high for these kids to have trauma that makes it later hard for them to be married later and them to raise their kids later. Right. And. And we want them to be resilient. So another reason to try to keep the marriage together, if it can be kept together.

[Jenny Urch]

I appreciate that. I appreciate reading those things because that matters a lot. You wrote, divorce, except in extreme circumstances, is more dangerous to children than helpful. And so these are important things to know, even though I think it's kind of a hard thing to talk about since it's sort of become the norm. It's. It's the average. It's like, you know, half. So it has.

[Michael Gurian]

You're right.

[Jenny Urch]

So those are important things to know and to think about. And I remember reading in Dr. Farrell's book about role mate to soulmate. It's like it's biologically normal to fall in love, but it's not biologically normal to stay in love. So you, you have to learn. So your other book sounds fantastic. Read your book since you do all this marriage therapy as well. So in this one in particular, which is a fantastic book about the wonder of boys, you were able to narrow down to 25 words. What do boys need in 25 words or less? And there are really fascinating things in here and things that parents need to know. I want to hit just a few of them. You talked a lot about sports. Sports is a tricky one, Michael, because sports have morphed into a life of their own. In a lot of cases, they're money driven and not necessarily super child focused. But that aside, you talk about really how important sports can be, especially for boys, because it gives them a lot. It gives them sometimes this extra family. They feel like the teammates are their brothers. They've got these coaches. Can you talk about. I mean, we're trying to get kids outside. We're trying to play, we're trying to be off the screens. Can you talk about the physicality, the sports, the teammates, the adventure, the risk? That part of boyhood that's really important.

[Michael Gurian]

Yeah, yeah. And you just hit on a lot of it. So the risk. So, yes, we want kids taking risks. And now this is girls, boys, everything. I coach my girls in soccer. I mean, it's. This is for everyone. We want these kids to grow up taking risks because part of how they mature and become resilient is they take risks, they meet challenges. And the way to become resilient is you got to meet challenges. If there aren't any challenges, you're not going to become resilient. So sports is a great place to find that, to find risk and challenge. And there might Be a broken bone. I mean, heck, I broke bones when I was a kid, you know, I mean, you do get some broken bones. We got to protect their heads, of course. But so. So sports gives risk, it gives challenge, and then the physicality. So it's incredibly good for brain development for, like, we want everyone listening. I say this constantly on. We have my podcast is the Wonder of Parenting podcast. So we're always asked this question, and I'm always repeating this, so I apologize if people have heard both, but we want two hours at least of intense exercise for these young guys per day.

[Jenny Urch]

Amazing, right?

[Michael Gurian]

And so sports is a way to get it. And if they don't, and this is good for brain development. So it's not only good to help stave off obesity and to do, you know, all these other good things about exercise, but it's. It's good for the brain. The brain develops because the body is in motion. Right. So now some kids hate sports, and I get that totally. There are some very shy kids, highly sensitive kids who, you know, they're not going to play football. They're not going to. They may not even play tennis. That's all right. Get them in martial arts. That's something they, you know, they can do. Anyone can do that. It doesn't have to be a team sport. So get them in something. And it doesn't have to be every day because they could go for a run or a jog with mom or dad for, you know, an hour a day on a different day. They don't have to be at practice seven days a week. They could, you know, there's a lot of ways to get that exercise, but what sports gives is. Is the risk and the challenge. And then they learn how to lose. They learn how to win, which, again, are very important for resilience development and for their social emotional development. They learn how to be teammates, which is going to be crucial not only for, you know, when they raise families in the future, but in their workplaces. So sports is something to really consider. And I would just say to parents, if the kid hates sports, then got to find something. So martial arts.

[Jenny Urch]

Something physical. Yes. It's so good.

[Michael Gurian]

Got to be. Go out and farm, you know, go do the gardening. I mean, whatever it is, make sure two hours of physical. And remember that those two hours they're doing a physical. For some kids, if they have practice or whatever, it's going to be three or more hours. They're not on screens.

[Jenny Urch]

Right, right.

[Michael Gurian]

For those hours. And that's crucial because like a 10 year old. We'd like him to have two plus hours or her to have two plus hours of exercise per day, but maybe one hour of screen time, you know, that's right. So like for a 10 year old, right, Everything's, you know, gradations based on age. But yeah, if they don't do the sports, they're going to probably three to five hours a day on screens, which has its own, you know, complexity.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. The body builds the brain. I love that you said that. I Hardly anybody seems to know that the body is what builds the brain. There's this fabulous book by Dr. Carla Hannaford. It's about how learning is not all in your head. It's that movement. It's the movement that's helping to build the brain. So you talk about the sports. Obviously it doesn't have to be sports, but you say. I cannot say how many times I've.

[Womb Bikes Advertiser]

Heard a boy talk about how good.

[Jenny Urch]

He feels when he plays sports, how comfortable his physicality is honored, his ability to compete is challenged. His sense of self has the potential to grow. He feels part of the large group. You talk a lot about groups, especially for boys, they need this kind of larger group. He has a role within the organizational system. He knows what the objective is. He sacrifices his body and at times his position. If it's necessary for the team, he receives praise. When he's done, they he's critiqued, he gets new skills. If the sport has a coach, he also has the opportunity to bond that there's the potential there to bond with a model and mentor so the sports can provide that second family to a boy. You know, sometimes they say these feel like my real brothers. Every game, every practice is an opportunity for small or large acts of heroism. And you talk about sort of this hero's journey for the boy. So I was interesting. I love it. 2 hours, 2 hours minimum of physicality for our kids. Then can you talk then about the work? So this is another one. I talked to this man named Arthur Brooks and he was talking about how the way that we feel about work is, is one of the most important keys to our happiness. And so you're talking in, in here about how. Talk about 25 words or less. What do boys need? One of them is an adventure and a best friend to have it with. One of them is important work, you know, a couple of those 25 words. So starting in toddlerhood.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Even just toddlers, I, I like to tell the little story or use the example of the picking up the Spoon. You have a toddler, we have a toddler who's, let's say, sitting on the high chair, drops the spoon that he or she is eating with. And what I would beg the parent to do and use this as metaphor, even if it's not literal, because sometimes we're all busy, we're going to pick up the spoon and put it on the highchair. Okay, fair enough. But kind of use this concept for the boy's life or the girl's life, which is let's unhook the highchair tray and have the kid climb down, pick up the spoon, climb back up, and then we, you know, hook the highchair tray again. So what's happened there is that the child has learned, okay, I have agency. This is important. You know, people are not going to do this for me. I have to do it myself. I am the one who dropped it. So, you know, my brain has to solve the problem that I have created. You know, so all of this is just so great for brain development. And then, you know, along that same line, I, I always beg parents to use chores as sacred work and make sure that the kids have a lot of chores. So every, every privilege they have, they need to have work, they need to have a chore when they get to the age where they are going to get a smartphone, you know, from the parents. So I hope that's going to be toward middle adolescence, but, you know, okay. Or when they get a car, okay, you've got this privilege, but now you have more sacred work. So. And then with our kids at 16, I have two daughters. They both, they both went to work in a nursing home at 16. Because both my wife and I, this could be because we're somewhat older, but both my wife and I went to work in our teens. She worked in fields, she was raised in Nebraska. I started out cleaning toilets at the Continental Trailways bus station, if you can believe it, which definitely made me want to go to college. I was like, okay, I guess I, you know, I don't want this job the rest of my life. And then I ended up working in restaurants for quite a long time, paid college, grad school, etc, working in restaurants. And so I started that as a teen. And so our concept was, and if our kids are not involved in some kind of major sports that requires three hours a day practice, which they weren't, they're going to start working. And they both, you know, they're well grown now, they have kids and they're like, that was the best thing you did you know, was made us start working at 16, because, like, they said, they're girls. And they said, God, we were so sick of the girl drama, you know, and just the girl drama, like, at school and everything. They're like, yeah, we. We were glad to go to work, glad to be having to mature, have mature relationships with people where they. They were dealing with adults. And in fact, in a nursing home, they're the servers in the restaurant. They're dealing with elderly people, you know, so you really got to develop maturity because you have to be patient. You have to really listen. And so I do beg parents to be thinking sacred work from the very beginning, because one of the keys to growing up is that work ethic and what happens in the brain. All of these things that we're suggesting, all of them affect dopamine uptake in the brain, and that's how the brain grows. So the kids get a feeling of reward, even if it's difficult when they accomplish it. It's a massive reward feeling. And then the dopamine floods through, and it helps fill in synapses into the pathways. And one of the reasons that we're so worried about TikTok and those things and they're. They're creating so much depression, anxiety, and basically immaturity and retarding brain development is because the brain and the body don't have to do any work to get the dopamine. So all that happens is the brain gets shot with dopamine every 60 seconds, and it just creates some bypasses, and it relies on these bypasses, so that complex brain development that we need for a child to mature can't happen. So, of course they're going to be anxious, they're going to be depressed, et cetera. But with this kind of a system in place, you know, where the child, from the very beginning, is involved in sacred work, however, you know, family wants to define that their brains have to mature, like, it has to happen, because they're physically involved in the work. They're intellectually involved in the work. They are social, emotionally involved in the work. It's like a whole brain activity, whereas just going on TikTok uses a tiny part of the brain and creates a bypass.

[Jenny Urch]

This is really important. And you wrote this long before TikTok was even a thing that anybody knew was coming.

[Michael Gurian]

Yeah, we didn't have TikTok, but already we had research on what excessive screen time was doing.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life, or about yourself. Talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most Insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to talkspace.com, match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com Save $80 with code [e-mail] Want to make a difference.

[GoFundMe Advertiser]

In your community but not sure how? Go to GoFundMe.com right now and start a GoFundMe. Seriously. Your next fundraiser doesn't have to start in a school parking lot or a church basement. You can start a GoFundMe today in just minutes. Fundraise for yourself, a friend or family member or an organization. All that matters is that you care about them. GoFundMe is the trusted place to fundraise for what you care about. With no pressure to hit your fundraising goal, but tons of tools to help you reach it, you can confidently start fundraising right now. Whether it's creative, local or critical, your cause matters. And there's a reason why. GoFundMe is backed by millions and chosen by fundraisers everywhere. It works and it matters. GoFundMe helps you make a real difference. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com that's GoFundMe.com G O F U N D me dot com this is a commercial message brought to you by GoFundMe.

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

Meet Olivia.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Hey, what's up?

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

Olivia dreams big.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

I want to go back to school and get a pet and buy a house and save for retirement and travel the world.

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

That's quite the list.

[Jenny Urch]

Thank you.

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

Newmerica Credit Union is the perfect partner to help turn Olivia's dreams into reality.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Really?

[Michael Gurian]

Yep.

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

We're all about helping our members create a life that feels like theirs. And we have the tools, expertise and guidance to make it happen.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

I'm in let's get started.

[Numerica Credit Union Advertiser]

Numerica Credit Union money where it matters. Federally insured by ncua.

[Michael Gurian]

Now we have all this research. So my, the newest book of mine that has this in it is Saving our Sons. So Saving our Sons came out a few years ago. If people are interested in all this digital stuff from from the boy raising boys point of view and then minds of girls does all the digital stuff from raising girls point of view. So saving our sons minds of girls depending on which child you have. I've got that in there with all the primary research and it's the speed, it's not just the constant imagery but it's the speed of the images that are really kind of ruining our kids brains.

[Jenny Urch]

So much to learn from you and it's really important. I just want to read this. You say from toddlerhood and this is boys and girls. But you this one particular book is about boys from toddlerhood. Boys need important work. It focuses them, it builds self confidence, it helps them belong, it helps them become husbands. When a two year old drops the fork on the floor, we bend to pick it up and you say, better yet, have him do it himself. When a 3 year old leaves his tricycle outside, we carry it in on our way in from work. Better yet, make him do it himself. When the 7 year old has to choose between homework and playing with friends, we're sometimes tempted, you know, to do the homework for them. Better yet, help them manage their time. And you just go on and on that boys need work, kids need work. And I love that you talked about your story in here, Michael, where you talked about when you, you did you clean those toilets at the bus station?

[Michael Gurian]

Help.

[Jenny Urch]

You're helping out your family. You know, you're 14 years old. 14, your family had very little money. You're 14, you're cleaning toilets at the bus station. And the clerk who you become friends with, you play chess with, the clerk says to you if you can do that, you can do anything. He often talked to me about who I was, about what I was doing, about what I hope for. So those are the types of things that you can't ever really imagine, you know, as a parent. You're, you know, a parent especially today would probably feel horrified if their kid was having to clean the toilets to have to help out the family. And yet this extended, this was the three family system. Here's this clerk that you become friends with and who really speaks into your life.

[Michael Gurian]

Yep. Mentors me and all that. And yeah, if I weren't doing that Work, I wouldn't have access to this, mentor, to this, as you say, this kind of who became sort of a second family or three third family member. I wouldn't have had all that development. And also, I like to think it this way. Why do I remember that later? You know, the brain imprint stuff, and what the brain tends to imprint is that which had an effect on the development of the brain. And I remember it because of the profound effect that it had on me in all these areas that you and I are discussing right now. For me, as a boy at 14, it had these profound effects and they were maturing effects. They helped my brain, myself to mature, to grow up. I think when we, let's say we're raising a child right now and the child is, does not have these challenges, you know, we don't provide these opportunities and challenges for the child. We basically, we, we kind of, what we say is, let him or her have a childhood. And when, when someone else says, well, they're just spending hours just looking at YouTube and entertaining themselves and, and you know, on the Internet and where they're going and all that, and the parents comes back and says, oh, let them have a childhood. And I like to respond to that. I, I always say, I hear you, but actually they're not having a childhood. They're being bypassed. The childhood would come as a training ground to become a mature adult. That's really what childhood is for. It's not really for being entertained eight hours a day. Right. That's not really the evolutionary use of childhood or people don't like that if they're more on the religious side, why God gave us childhood. I mean, we could use either one. It exists to be this incremental and staged developmental journey or like hero's journey that you mentioned into adulthood. And so therefore, yeah, gotta have, gotta have the love and attention, but I gotta have the challenges and have to have the hard work and the sacred work. And anytime a boy or a girl is not doing their chores, like, yeah, we get this on our podcast again too. People talk about. And I always go, yeah, well then you just take every device away until they're doing their chores. Because the chores are more important than anything that they, at 12 years old are going to get, you know, off the Internet or from TikTok or wherever, YouTube. The chores are more important for their development.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, it's all, it's all more important than entertainment. Chores are more important than entertainment. The work is more important. You're talking the sports, the movement, all of that. It's just we're so out of whack. I had read the. The reason that we even started this is because I had read this statistic that said kids were on screens for four to seven hours a day for. But playing outside for four to seven minutes a day. I mean, it's just so out of whack.

[Michael Gurian]

That's dangerous.

[Jenny Urch]

Yep, it is. It is. And this is so important to know. I want to hit a couple more topics that are in this one and then, wow. Parents can go crazy because you've got a lot of books, you've got your own podcast, you can go to your website. Just one thing after the next, after the next. So much to learn. One of the things that you talk about is rituals. So you say we are in large part a culture that expects its boys to. To initiate themselves into manhood. So you talk in this one a lot about adolescence and that those puberty years, you call it second birth, the passage into manhood. And you talk about for mothers and for fathers, you know what to expect and what. What matters. And as a mother, as a mother, I was like, this is really important. If a boy doesn't separate from his mother, he will never achieve the independence necessary to discover his own psychological boundaries. Thus, he will never achieve true independence with a mate. The love a mother and son have for each other must change as the boy becomes a man. The mother must let him go into the world of men. And it's also for herself. She can't make through the passage into the next stage of her life. If she doesn't allow that to happen, she'll continue to live through her children. Child, not herself. But then you say, this is very difficult and it's hard for fathers too. So can you talk about. Especially since there seems to be this extended adolescence. You joked around about it earlier, but you were talking about, you know, it used to be 15. My dad just read the. I'm not sure if it's a biography about Hamilton. And he was talking about how, I mean, these, they're like teenagers and, and they're going off and they're starting companies and they're involved in these really brave things as teens. This kind of extended a little bit. Someone said if you ask kids today what age is an adult, sometimes they'll say like 28. Oh, yeah, it's really swung. So can you talk about as parents, this for boys and girls, but how can we start to really guide our kids through the second birth, through adolescence?

[Michael Gurian]

Okay, yeah. This is a very interesting thing because there is Male, female, brain difference here. Girls will naturally and internally have to mature, in other words, have a rite of passage, because they menstruate, right? And when they start menstruating, that affects their neurobiology and their hormonal biology, which then has a profound effect on their brain development. It matures their brains. They're not women or, you know, mature women at 13 or 12 or whenever it happens, but over that period of time, because they're menstruating, it's having a huge effect internally. And we want to remember that they only have. Women have around 300 eggs, fertile eggs in a lifetime, okay? So now you compare that to males. There's nothing internal that males have that forced their brains to mature. Nothing internal. All that happens is we guys get pubic hair, we get taller, our voice deepens, we have ejaculations and all this stuff, but we're. There's nothing like that. And that's why cultures throughout history and this, no matter the culture, everything I'm talking about is fits for every culture, every race, every continent, right? That's specifically why I put this this way, because these things are universal. Every culture put boys through rites of passage knowing that girls had an internal rite of passage, okay? Now, in the modern world, we like. Like my kids had bat mitzvahs. We're Jewish. I love that my girls got to have that rite of passage, okay? At the same time, the reason that those rites of passage were so important for boys is, is because boys didn't have an internal one. So the society had to raise these boys up and had to get them to go through massive challenges, like menstruation is.

[Jenny Urch]

Right.

[Michael Gurian]

Like having a child or childbirth will be. Get them to go through massive challenges which happened on vision quests or happened, you know, within the Jewish. It's a bar mitzvah. And it takes you a number of years to learn all the Hebrew and to go, you know, and everyone. Okay? So those. That's why it's so important for. For boys. And when. When boys don't get those, they're not going to mature as well, right? They don't get them. They're not going to mature as well because it's yet another piece of the puzzle of why they are 28 or 30 and they have not fully grown up. So that's what we mean there by rights of passage. And I think it's really important that parents like we. So the pastor that I do my. My wonder parenting podcast with Pastor Tim Wright, he and I created rites of passage that Parents could use with their girls and with their boys and then the fathers use them and set up a male community and then lead their 12, 13 year old sons through this rite of passage in case, you know, the fathers are not involved in some other way in which the kid will get rites of passage. So, so people go to wonderparentingpodcast, by the way dot com. They can find those. So we created them, these sort of two year programs, one year programs because it's that important. It's that important. If we want kids to mature and especially boys, we got to give them some powerful rites of passage. And we want to remember they're kind of wired to get them. And if they don't get them, they're going to go find them via gangs. They're going to find them via drugs, drug use. They're going to go try to make themselves into men. It's just that they won't be having elders helping them. They'll go bond with gang members and they'll do it that way. And that's not the way we want. That obviously leads down all sorts of antisocial roads that are bad for them. So that's kind of what we're getting at there.

[Jenny Urch]

That's really powerful and interesting about the menstruation because what you said was. And I can't find. I'm like trying to flip through my notes because it really stuck out to me. Well, first of all, that's a really big deal when that happens to you as a, as a, you know, a girl or a teenager, whatever age it happens. But then you say every single month you're reminded, you know, it's this constant.

[Michael Gurian]

Reminder and it matures your brain every single month.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow.

[Michael Gurian]

It has a chemical. Your brain is having a chemical reaction.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow, that's remarkable.

[Michael Gurian]

The female brain is. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

So this is, this is trickier than for the sons. This is trickier for the boys as they're like. You talk about kind of like almost a second birth into adulthood. You talked about how mothers in particular mothers need to let their sons go through adolescence.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh yeah. The separation with mom. Okay. Yeah. Should I talk about that?

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, like that. You say the message they need to give is every day you need me less and less, both physically and emotionally, and I need you less and less. And that's okay. Instead, the message mothers often give is I need you. Don't go. Mothers don't realize that this adolescent entanglement will make it so difficult for the boy or wants a man to feel himself as real, whole, empowered and Capable of true commitment to mates. Most American men carry some unresolved issue with their mothers to their marriages. Yeah, and this matters a lot because the divorce matters.

[Michael Gurian]

Yeah. And divorce is a part of this too. Yeah. Because quite often with a divorce occurs and then, then the separation between mom and the son doesn't occur because the, the dad is now pretty much gone. Right. The divorce court system is set up so that the dad is, is sort of ostracized from the children and which is, has many dangerous because fatherhood is crucial for raising children. But anyway, that's how the court system is set up. And so, so then you've got sort of the dad is pushed away and the mom increases her bond with the son. And what's, what's hard about this is, and what's often misunderstood is people will, you know, I'll talk about this, or other psychologists will talk about this and people will say, or especially moms will say, well, you know, how dare you? You're saying that my son shouldn't love me. And that's not it. The boy is going to love his mom and the mom is going to love the boy and that is going to go on for a lifetime. So it's not about that. What it's about is the psychological separation that needs to occur so that a child, and it's not just sons, girls need to separate from their moms too. And every, you know, mom and every girl knows that this is correct. That girls during adolescence, in their early 20s, they can feel themselves separating so they can establish their own identity. Right. Well, saying the same for boys, but then people, people go, no, no, don't say that. Yeah, we gotta say it. The boy has to become a man so that he'll be resilient and function and know who he is and serve the society. You know, and if he, if the son and the mother don't let go, then that's going to be the relationship. The son is going to mainly serve the mother, and we need him to serve the mother and we need him to serve the society and we need him to serve his future family. It can't be so all consuming. So mothers and sons are going to love each other and mothers and sons should continue loving each other. We want that bond. That's great. All we're talking about is the mom allowing the son, as he becomes older, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, you know, go through the stages of letting him become independent. And that means letting him take his own risks. So don't overprotect as much it means letting him gain his own respect. Like don't constantly say to him you're perfect. That's non separation. What we want is for the mom to be giving him opportunities where he can go get respect himself. Where he has to perform in a sport or in work or whatever it is, or by getting good grades or whatever it is. Where now the mom's not hovering, helping him do the work. He is separating from her. He's got to do his own work. So it's not about the love. The love is deep and will always exist. It's about this, the staging of the letting go so that the boy can become an adult man. One of the places where single moms especially and moms right now are in, it's difficult is that the father's. If the father isn't there, whether from divorce or could be something else, he could have abandoned his kids. I mean whatever it is, if the father isn't there, then who is she letting the son go to? So she feels afraid for the son because she's not letting him go into a community of men and women at school who, who are going to help raise him. So that's part of what moms right now have to negotiate internally is okay, who is there that I am letting him go to? Because she needs to know. There are some people out there, especially dad, but grandparents, aunts, uncles, you know, teachers, everyone else. I'm letting him go to them. It's okay, they're safe people, they're good people. They're going to help raise him. I can let him go just a little bit more.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. You say the mother son relationship is getting more and more difficult and more and more dangerous with each generation. So there is a lot to learn here. And they talk about the fathers, the father son relationship. And one of the things you say is men need to start buying and reading child rearing books.

[Michael Gurian]

Which they're doing more of now. I gotta say that's great. Thirty years ago, it's great.

[Jenny Urch]

You say caring for a child is something we are least trained to do well, especially if we're male. So there's a lot to learn there and especially in those birth to three years. So just fantastic information in a book that's 30 years old. But I got the 20 year old one because it's the 10 year anniversary and you have these books. We talk about screens, but can you just give us a little bit? Especially since we kind of focused on boys today about video games and screens for our boys.

[Michael Gurian]

Right. So what saving our sons does is it divides the boyhood just like minds of girl does for girlhood. It divides it over two years. Okay, div. Birth to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 6. Looking at all the science and what's best for that brain. So I'm going to just to talk about it in a minute. I'm going to pick an age. I think I picked 10 years old before, so I'll pick that again. If you have, if someone has a son, the son is 10 years old, okay? So this guy ought not be spending more than two hours a day on screens and he ought not be playing video games on school nights. Don't want any video games on school nights. And just an hour or two on weekends. We don't want any. No smartphone. Absolutely no smartphone yet. No Internet access yet. So no smartphone because it also gives that. It's all the fast moving images, all this other stuff. That brain can't handle it yet. This by the way is true for girls as well. Ought not do smartphones till somewhere between 13 and 15, you know, average at freshman year in high school. No smartphone till then. And video games, you know, we don't want too much of it. And when he is playing video games, I wrote a book called the Purpose of Boys which was about helping to utilize the assets available to teach boys purpose. Well, video games can do that. They have a kind of warrior mentality. They, they. There's a lot of archetypal stuff they do that parents and dads playing with them can kind of explain to them and then explain to them the bad sides of them. And if they're playing video Games at 10, not Grand Theft Auto, not stuff that teaches misogyny and you know, all this negative stuff about women and you know, all that don't want that in their brains. And also remember that by then they, they, if they have especially an older brother, they might be starting to look at porn. And that's become very of course, dangerous for the brain and for their brain development. So it's important that if they have access to some other way onto the Internet, that the parents are looking at their browser history. Because we want to remember that all devices, everything in the home is owned by the parents. So the child does not have a quote unquote right to privacy of their browser history. Right. Because the device is owned by the parents. And we parents have to kind of monitor especially now to see where these kids are going. So video games are a big issue. And also porn is a big issue.

[Jenny Urch]

Michael, this is just such an honor. I'm so grateful. 35 years as a marriage and family therapist and you have written an untold amount of books. I mean, there are so many books, they've been translated to all of these different languages. And so there's just information after information after information that's so needed. It's so needed because we don't have it. You know, it's not just naturally, like you said, we have to pick up the child rearing books because we don't know it all. And these things matter a lot. So it's. This one in particular is going to give you the 25 words or less, what do these boys need? I mean, and then it'll go deeper, but you're going to get a really good overview and make sure that you are providing for your sons what they need. And then you can go over and you can read the Wonder of Girls if you've got daughters. And all of the information is there. 35 years as a marriage and family therapist, that means you've been doing this through this technological change and so you can help parents as we're sort of dealing with things that our parents didn't deal with and so we don't really have any knowledge of what to do. People can go to the Wonder of Parenting podcast and find so much more as well, all the episodes there. So this has just been such a tremendous gift for me. I'm so glad I read this book. I wanted to end with a final question. We always end with the same question and the question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Michael Gurian]

Oh, my favorite M. I have so many. I'm going to pick one from India because we talked about it. I remember in India we lived for a while next to a river and all these boys. This is when we just got there. So I didn't speak any Hindi or anything. A bunch of boys came over and found myself and my brother, he's two years older. And they just sort of gathered around us and we all started playing a game and we didn't. Couldn't speak any language, right? I mean, they didn't know English. I didn't know Hindi and. And I just remember being by that river, kicking this flat soccer ball around and. And just having this great time. So that's. That pops into my head.

[Jenny Urch]

Just a power of childhood and the power of play that it's for. We talked about that at the very beginning that all kids all around the world, they need this play and they need those experiences in the groups. Michael, thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Thanks for all of this incredible information that you've put out into the world it including your podcast. I know everyone's really going to appreciate it.

[Michael Gurian]

Oh thank you Jenny. Thanks for having me. You're awesome.

[VRBO Advertiser]

With stays under $250 a night, VRBO makes it easy to celebrate sweater weather. You could book a cabin stay with leaf views for days, or a brownstone in a city where festivals are just a walk away. Or a lakeside home with a fire pit for cozy nights with friends. Or if you're not a sweater person, we can call it corduroy weather. More flexible and with stays under $250 a night, you can book a home that suits your exact needs. Book [e-mail] the holidays mean more travel.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

More shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will find fix it guaranteed or your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast terms apply.