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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 617: The Courage to Be Left Behind | Erin Loecher, The Opt-Out Family
00:55:43
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and one of my very, very, very favorite people ever is back. Erin Lachner. Welcome.
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B
Oh, Jenny, I could talk to you for hours.
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A
Hours, Hours.
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B
This is gonna be so hard for me to edit down. Okay. Hi. I miss you.
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A
I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm so glad that we've connected. We connected at Wild and Free, the Wild and Free conference a couple years back. And you are, like, the most humble person, because I came. It was, like, my first time, and I didn't know anybody, and you were the. What do they call it? I want to say concierge, but that's not the right word.
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B
What is it? What is it called? Presenter. Host.
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A
Okay. Your host. I mean, so hospitable. Like, just making sure everyone's taken care of. In fact, I. It was my first experience being treated so caringly. I remember telling Josh, I was like, this is incredible. Like, she's like, do you know where you're going? Do you have what you need? I've got this. I'm. You know, people are driving at this point. Does everybody have a ride? Does. And, like, I think you checked in before the event, like, texted before the event, and I was like, what is this? This is amazing. So then we met, and, like, we spent this weekend together. And then I came home and I was like, wait. I was like, erin's been on tv. She's written these books. She has this thing called Other Goos to help people with homeschooling. And you didn't talk about it at all.
- [01:17]
B
Oh, you. Well, because I want to hear from you. I want to hear all your fascinating things, which someday I just really feel like we need to do an episode about you where you're interviewed by the whole world. Everybody just sends in their questions and we interview you. Because I like. I like. I want. I want you. I love you.
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A
Well, I want you. And this is the thing. Before we kind of. I hit record here. We're talking about that. Of. I think, of all the people that I know personally, I think this is the true statement. You, to me, are the. Are the person who. The most lives what they want, you know, and you've tried different things and been like, I don't really want that, so I'm going to do something different. And you've done the. I've been on tv, have a huge following, and speaking at Disney, and, you know, and in sort of this pinnacle Thing and been like, okay, well, I've tried that. And now I'm going to try being at home and teaching journaling class for, you know, for kids or now my husband is going to try building a yurt village in Montana. And we're going to make it work and we're going to, like, you know, we're going to have this season and that season, and some kids are going to go and some kids are going to stay. And I. I just don't. I haven't met other people that live like that.
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B
Really. I think you live like that. I do, but thank you for saying that. And I think. I think when we hear stories like that, where it's like, you do just do you. When you do whatever you want to do, you know, which I do think that's kind of how we live. We just do whatever we want to do or wherever we feel like what we're supposed to be doing at the time, whatever is what is in front of us. That's what we like to steward. But I feel like there's a trap in that because we hear all of these. There are so many beautiful ways to live, Ginny. And you know that and I know that. And yet sometimes they're only for us for a really small amount of time. One season and then it's done, and then we move on to something else and we find another way to live. But they all feed into each other eventually, and I think they add up to something. Something really lovely.
- [03:14]
A
Yeah. And actually that is really a wise way of looking at it. And that is. I guess what I've observed in the few years that I've known you is that you're fine to let some things go in order to make room for other things. And I would imagine that there are a lot of people, maybe the majority, myself included, that would really bulk at. And question letting something go like a big platform or like clout. And yet you did that and then you moved on to these other things. Can you give somebody some wisdom, some insight, some courage maybe, if they're feeling like. I feel like I'm supposed to move into this other season, but I'm really having a hard time letting this other thing go. Out of fear.
- [03:57]
B
Yeah, that's a great question. Fear. Yeah. I think. I think there's no harm in trying new things. And. And sometimes we don't know that there is something better if we're not trying it. But also there are times when we are. We feel like we're supposed to leave a season and there isn't anything next. You know, we don't really know what's around the horizon. And I think those are really the tricky ones because it's a little bit like, what am I even transitioning to? What am I. What am I walking toward? But sometimes, and we all know this feeling when it's like, where we are, we know it's not working. We don't know what's. What's next, but we know the thing that we have right now is not working. And so I think that we're granted those seasons to just play around a little bit. And I think there's so much room for that where we just. You don't have to know what the next thing is. You just have to know that this thing right here isn't it. And so you push pause. You can always go back. You know, it's not like we all have to burn the ships down, you know.
- [04:54]
A
Well, that is a tricky thing in this day and age. You know, if you have a TV show going on or you've got, you know. You know how it is. Like, if you have got momentum in something and you step out of it, it can be hard to rebuild that momentum. So can you talk us through? This is the thing. I'm like, I'm so intrigued. You have had these different seasons that are big. Right now your husband is out in Montana building a. What do you call it, a yurt village.
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B
I don't even know what we're doing. We're just do. We're just doing whatever we want. I mean, he's building some cabins and. But really just for us to live. And then just for. We might have goats. I don't know. We're gonna have to just figure it out. But we do. We have some land, and we're kind of living in a bunch of different places right now, but it's okay.
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A
Okay, so then. So then walk us back a few seasons ago, and I. I read recently, and I'm the worst. I'm starting to, like, my mind is starting to jumble. It's recent that I read it, though, where someone said seasons change slowly, like the actual seasons. And I thought that was a really beautiful thing because I think so often we want to step from one thing to the next, and we want to be established in it quickly. But nature shows us that seasons change slowly. It's October 2nd that we're recording this. That's going to come out heading into the holidays here because we're talking slowing down and also opting out the books. You have Chasing Slow and the Opt Out Family, which are remarkably good. I reprinted my notes from Opt Out Family, Aaron and I. It's eight pages, I'm full all the way to the end. Eight pages of notes from Opt Out Family. So heading into that. But, but it's October 2nd in Michigan and it's 84 degrees, you know, and, and normally here it's, it's getting cold. You know how it is. You're in the Midwest. Normally it's, you know, getting cold. And, and it just takes, it's slow. Seasons change slow. There's a time period on the in between. So can you walk back to this season of in the World's Eyes, hitting all the milestones of success remarkably well and then leaving that?
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B
Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not saying it's for everybody, but I have just always been a lot more interested in the people who sort of, you know, they live out the American dream. They reach the culmination of the American dream or whatever they think it's supposed to look like, and they kind of look around and they're like, not, not even is this it? But is this something, you know, is this something that was worth all of the work and that will continue to be worth all of that? And I'm not, when I say work I shouldn't, I fully believe in hard work. You know, our family built a 700 foot square foot deck with our bare hands. It was the coolest thing ever. But I, I mean, expectation, you know, the kind of work that is not necessarily coming from you as a person, but as you're spending more time sort of working to complete all of the checklists that are required of you to be where you think you should be at the time, that's the kind of work that I mean. And so I think, just when we think about the people who have sort of the comeback story, right. We love those, we love those tales. I like the step back story where it's, hey, what we have here needs rejiggered. I'm not saying we have to change it all. We don't have to change it all at once, but we got to reconfigure this in a way that is actually supporting us as people. Maybe you have a new baby entering the home and you need to have your own micro step back story. Maybe you have a move coming up or maybe you're entering a season of health crises or whatever and you have to re envision what it looks like. I am so, so into those moments because it's like you said, they're the slow transitions. And I think there are these seasons where we assume that we're going backwards or that it's not part of our story. It's going to be the part that we leave on the cutting room floor when we tell this story. And, you know, from talking to enough people, it is always the season that grows you in character. And I am way more interested in that. So for me, what it looked like was just kind of looking at all of these things that I had done or that I was doing and asking myself, do I feel like I can be true to the person that God made me to be in this arena? Do I feel like I can live out who I uniquely am in this capacity? If I continue at this pace, will I be bringing all of myself with me, or will I have to be sacrificing bits and pieces along the way? And all of those answers were crystal clear for me. But I am also not a high capacity, high functioning person. And so some people might be able to do it.
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A
You know, I totally disagree. When you're like, hey, are you here? I'm going to help you with every single bit of your weekend at this conference and also all of the other speakers that actually very high capacity to me.
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B
Well, but with naps, you know, I take frequent naps. I need frequent downtime recharging and all of that. So I do. I just think it's different for everybody. But I like the assessment. I like asking those questions and challenging those norms and deciding, you know, there are always pros and cons to every way to live. And this is. These were just sort of the decisions that felt natural to me. That probably doesn't answer your question.
- [10:18]
A
No, it totally does. And I. So what I really liked. I liked the word rejiggered. First of all, I've never heard anyone say rejiggered, and I've never said it. Now. I said it a bunch of times. But I think sometimes Josh and I have just been talking about this. You find yourself in a spot. We just talked about this yesterday, actually. You find yourself in a spot in life, often based off of a long series of decisions. Like, why are we right here? Like you were talking about. You got 1.4 million people following you. You're headlining conferences, you're hosting workshops at Walt Disney, you're modeling in Gap ads, you've headlined. You know, you've got these 24 episodes on HGTV. Is that right?
- [10:54]
B
You got your com. Yeah.
- [10:56]
A
Your renovation. This whole renovation show. And you say you walked away from it you canceled yourself, you walk away from it all. And I think you find yourself in that position. It's based off of a series of things. And so in order, if you want to change your circumstance, you do have to step back and you ha. You have to go backwards and say, well, how did I end up in this spot? And am I in alignment with all of the pieces that fell into place to get me here?
- [11:22]
B
Yeah, yeah. You're almost reverse. Reverse engineering. You know, you're looking backward and asking, did I? Or sometimes you just have to ask, did I choose this or did it choose me? You know, and neither of those questions are wrong. But if you didn't choose it, if it wasn't kind of your proactive course of action, then do you want it or are you just here, you know, are you just here living whatever the Mary Oliver, breathing a little, calling it a life, you know, all of that? And I think that's worth asking yourself at any point in time.
- [11:55]
A
Yeah. So this is what happens. So you have these long, you know, it's like a set of decisions and you end up in this spot which in the world's eyes, I. I would think everyone would think is. Is wildly successful, and you walk away from it. Can you talk about, was it immediate relief or was there a lot of questioning there? So if someone's listening, right, we're heading into a new year, and I think a lot of people are like, am I at where I want to be in life? Are we living the values that we want to have? If we want to build a yurt camp in Montana, are we going to do it? Like, you know, you only have so much time when you walked away from that or when you've switched seasons. Even this one. This is a big season because I know you from Wild and free, but also from your kids doing incredible theater, and you're talking about, well, we might uproot. What would that look like? And I was kind of like, gosh, I mean, to even be talking about that's a really big deal because, like, this theater thing and their kids aren't incredibly talented. Can you talk about the in between seasonality part? Like, yeah, when you dropped it. What's that like?
- [12:57]
B
I would not say it's an immediate. Ah, that's better. You know, I think sometimes we burn it down, but we really just needed a nap, you know, I really do. I think it's important to gauge that difference. I think sometimes it's really helpful to just even, even get out a piece of paper and write on the left side of it, you know, what are all of the things that I enjoy about my life now? Because there's always something. It's never all bad, you know, it's never all. Nothing is working. There are just a few things. And if you can get really specific about those things, and then, okay, well, what would I want instead of that? You know, what or what are the things that I enjoy? And then how are the ways that I. What are the things in my life that I cannot do because of it? Or what's the barrier? What's getting in the way of this? It's kind of about congruency, I think about sort of even here are some values and here are the ways that I am unable to live within those values, given my current lifestyle and kind of just finding ways to make all of that match. And sometimes it's a really small step. I remember, gosh, we, you know, you know, with kids, they're always fixated on certain things. And I had a daughter that was really fixated on sea turtles and the idea that plastic straws were killing the sea turtles. And I remember just thinking, yeah, but how big of a problem is it? Is this really big of a deal? I don't know. I realized if I want to be somebody that really cares about small things and that believes in small actions leading to big, big changes, then I have to do that for my own life. And I got to show my kids how to do it, too. For a while, every time we would go, we had this little rhythm where we would walk to the local diner or bike, sometimes take a shortcut through the woods. It was really beautiful. Anyway, but always we would share this massive breakfast called a presidential breakfast. And we would. They would stick it in a Tupperware thing. And so we would bring our own Tupperware to this diner and we would bring our own forks and our own, like, glassware. And we were. And we would always ask for no straws, because of course, the no straw things build into the idea that all plastic cutlery is wrong to the world. And I remember my daughter still references it because she's like, well, all you do if you want to save the sea turtles is you just take your own Tupperware to restaurants. It's no big deal. But it really isn't a big deal. You just have to do it. You just try it once and then it sticks. And you do it a couple times and a couple times and you recognize. Gosh, it's not that hard to bring your own Tupperware. You can Even just leave it in the van, whatever. So there were things like that where I recognized some of these goals or changes we want to make in our life feel really big and unwieldy and hard. And you just zero in on one thing and you get really good at that one thing and then you can add another. It's habit stacking. You know about that. Like just practicing that one thing over and over and over and then seeing how that momentum builds into a new way to even think about life. And then it's so much easier to make these big changes. They're not scary anymore because you realize, I can take my own Tupperware to the diner. Dang it. This isn't scary. We can all do it.
- [16:06]
A
Oh, Erin, that would be a good book.
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B
Take your Tupperware to the diner.
- [16:10]
A
Yep. It would be a good children's book.
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B
Save the sea to. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [16:13]
A
It would be. It would be. Because the concept is doing things, like you said, the way that you want to do them, based off of what your values are and how you see the world. Ginny here with 1000 hours outside. If you're like me, you know that the best gifts aren't the ones that end up on a shelf. They're the ones that get muddy, sun soaked and full of memories. That's why I am so excited to tell you about our friends at Womb Bikes, a family focused company that truly gets what childhood should feel like. Womb makes lightest, smartest, safest bikes on the market. Designed specifically for kids. From their very first balance bike all the way to those confident neighborhood cruisers. Every detail is built for little riders, from easy reach brakes to perfectly balanced frames. So kids don't just learn to ride, they learn to love the ride. And this holiday season, you can give a gift that leads to a thousand hours of joy, confidence and connection. Outside. Head to womb.com and use the code outside.10 for 10% off new bikes and accessories. But hurry, it is only good until November 15th. That's womb W-O-O-M.com and use code outside. 10 for 10 off by November 15th. This year, don't just give a bike, give them a reason to ride and a lifetime of adventure. You guys, the holidays are almost here and you know what that means. People to feed, guests to host and a whole lot of cozy moments ahead. I've been getting our home ready with Wayfair and it's amazing how just a few updates make everything feel warm and welcoming again. I grabbed a beautiful new dining bench so everyone has a seat at the table, swapped in flam sheets for the guest room and found the cutest Christmas wreath. All from Wayfair's Black Friday sale. Everything shipped fast, the prices were unreal and it made me actually excited to host this year. Wayfair really is the place to shop for all things home, from sofas to spatulas, rugs to refrigerators. And during their Black Friday event you can save up to 70 off. Plus they have styles you won't see anywhere else so your space actually feels like you. And if you haven't heard, Wayfair now has a loyalty program where you earn 5% back, get free shipping and have access to member only sales. It's totally worth joining, so don't wait. These early deals are already happening. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70 off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com sale ends December 7th. You know how they say hindsight is 20 20? If you're like me, you've probably thought I should have paid attention in history class more or bought Bitcoin years ago back when it was a penny. It's easy to look back and have regrets both big and small. We are referred to as the FOMO generation after all. But there's one thing you really don't want to miss out on, and that's protecting your family's future. For around the same price per month as one of your streaming services, you can finally cross life insurance off your list with selectquote.com if you are new to life insurance, you're not alone. For over 40 years, Select Quote has helped more than 2 million Americans get the coverage they need. Over $700 billion in coverage and counting. They do all the hard work for you comparing plans from trusted top rated insurance companies to find the one that fits your health, your lifestyle and your budget. And get this many people can get covered the same day up to $2 million worth with no medical exam required. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours so you you step back from, you know this modeling for Gap and being on television and you have this book called Chasing Slow, which is just a phenomenal book. And I read a book Just this past week called I Wish I had a bigger kitchen and they referenced your book in there and I was like, I know her. But you talk about in chasing slow, about how we worry that we're going to be cast aside. So you say this. Will we be cast aside for not pulling our weight, for not keeping up with the pace, for not playing by the rules. And then you talk about how there are blessings, peace, abundance, humility and racing toward a different finish line. And I think as we head into a new year here, those are big questions, like what direction are we headed? And it really goes in line with the opt out family too. What direction are we headed with our screens and what, how long is our kids attention span gonna be and are they, you know, gonna be able to be readers and all of these different things. It connects quite a bit. What's your answer to the question of being left behind and being cast aside? Does that happen?
- [20:46]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm sure it does. I just don't know about it because I'm not online. I don't care. But I do. I think it's really funny because I honestly, I wrote tasting so 10 years ago before I burnt any of it that, you know, I really. But the inklings were always there. And now looking back, it's. Whenever I would talk about writing the app. Family, people were like, yeah, that totally checks out. That makes so much sense. You basically wrote that book 10 years ago, you just didn't know you were writing that book. Because I think that was my experiment with what would it be to leave it all behind? Because you can't be left behind if you're leaving it behind. You know, you can't. Yeah, right.
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A
On a different path.
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B
Right. You're just, yeah. You're not, I mean, you're not paying attention. It's a choice. You're choosing, you're deciding. I don't really want this. Remember middle school and like there was the mean girl lunch table and you would always be, well, I'm speaking from experience. I would always be angsty if like the mean girls didn't want me to sit with them or whatever. And then there's this light bulb moment where it's like, wait a minute, I don't actually want to sit with them. They don't look like they're having any fun. And I'm going to sit over here. And then you don't even know that the mean girls have a table anymore. It just, it's not in your orbit. It doesn't exist to you. And I Think that's kind of what it is. Sometimes it's, if this isn't really a race I want to win, why am I running? That's what it was like for me. I think that first book was sort of about leaving the American dream, and the second book was a little about leaving the Internet influence dream. You know, recognizing that the Internet changes you in your identity in ways that you don't know as a grown adult. So certainly, yes, our kids. But I think there was just a point, probably began in writing Chasing Slow and recognizing all the ways I could strip the excess that it naturally poured over into. Do I even need this identity, too? Do I need the following? Can I still feel like I have a vibrant life without it? And like the sea turtles, you know, with parents, we go first. And so I never wanted the reason that my kids get a cell phone or a smartphone to be because they didn't want to be left behind or left out. I wanted to say, okay, well, let's see what it looks like to go first. And so I did. But in my experience, you still find really beautiful ways to live within your values, and you can still do all the things you enjoy that were still on that piece of paper of the career you used to have or of the life you used to have or the home you used to have, all of those things. Any transition will carry the former you into it. You still have you. You're just you on the other side. And then you get to decide what you want to take with you.
- [23:33]
A
I. I love it. Because it all intertwines with all you have to do. All you have to do is take your Tupperware to the restaurant. All you have to do, all you have to do is just hold off on screens, like. And what you see is that one step of bravery toward living more in line with how you want your life to go leads to another one. That's what you see, like, with your. With your story, like, knowing you and seeing, like, okay, well, this step leads to bravery in the next situation because you've learned that, no, you didn't get left behind. You actually have a really beautiful life and you're loving it. And so that. That influences the next decision that comes. So for people that are thinking about how they want to structure their life, and I think we all are carrying things that we don't want to carry and dealing with things that we don't really want to be dealing with, and we want to make some changes. And so you give that permission in both books, in Chasing Slow and the Opt out family, you can opt out and you can use the strategies that these tech billionaires are using to suck your life away, and you can use those same strategies to protect your kids. So can you talk about that premise? The book is so phenomenal. The Opt Out Family, this is a premise of using the tools that are being used against you, using those same tools for you.
- [24:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I will say, too, just to piggyback on that thought, is for the people that are thinking about making changes. You know, one of the really beautiful fruits of making any changes is because we all have lives that we don't control. Right. They're not ours to just sort of micromanage. I have found that when I choose something that I can control, it does give me more grace and mercy, even for the things that I can't control. It just. It kind of creates more brain space to be able to handle all of those things. There are going to be parts of our life that everybody is frustrated by. I have a kid that whistles Jenny. And I feel really bad saying this because whistling is a really joyful act. And. Yes.
- [25:28]
A
No, no. Because Josh does it. I'm like, can you. Oh, my gosh, can you please stop that? Oh.
- [25:34]
B
And you just feel like a. Just miserable person asking someone not to whistle. Like a total grumpy.
- [25:40]
A
Like a total grumpy.
- [25:41]
B
I'm a microphone and it's so jolly. And I just. Anyway, all that to say I. I do. I feel like on my worst days, I would be like, no whistling. No whistling. And. And now I can embrace it a little bit more outside and with great space between us.
- [25:57]
A
That is the thing that we talk about, though, a lot, is that when you go outside, the sounds dissipate. So if you are, you know, if you're feeling a little overwhelmed because your kids are loud, it gets absorbed. The clouds absorb it and the leaves absorb it.
- [26:10]
B
You know, it gives you and you don't. You're right.
- [26:12]
A
Kick Josh outside. He can go whist there.
- [26:15]
B
Tell Josh I know I love whistlers. Yeah, just in my house, anyway. Okay. That was a side note, but I will say so. Okay. In terms of turning the algorithm on its head and sort of using these strategies against that big tech are kind of training us and just using them in our own homes. One of my favorite ways to do it, and you're in this chapter, but the idea of challenge, I just firmly believe that kids want to be challenged. I think they seek it out. I think they want things that are hard. I think they want Things that make them feel stronger and bigger. And I don't think it's an accident that TikToks create challenges on the regular and promote challenges on the regular. They're fun. They're fun and they're exciting and kids want them.
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A
Okay, let me tell you, this is so wild to me.
- [27:04]
B
Tell me.
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A
This is going to make me sound like a really bad parent. I'm going to say it. Anyways, so we're doing, you know, our school is. It's eclectic. That's a good word. So anyways, one of our kids is doing duolingo, which is like a way to learn language. And I think that's pretty fun. So I like duolingo. All right. But it's an app, right? So they're doing duolingo. And also apparently on duolingo now you can learn chess. Also great thing. I'm like, that's great. But we do have a friend that has this pretty cool hands on chessboard. I think it's kind of expensive, but it's like an actual physical chessboard and you can play online with people by moving their piece. It like lights up to show you it was really cool. So that the guy, his name's Tom. He's an author actually. He, he was saying that he bought this because he didn't want his kids to see him on his screen all the time. But he still wants to like be challenged and play chess players from all over the world and work on his rankings. So he has the physical chess chessboard. So I'm like, oh, that's, that's actually would be a better idea. But she's doing chess on duolingo. And then she just said to me yesterday, she was like, something about her streak, her duolingo streak with her friends. I know, I know. Look it, I'm like, ding, ding, ding. Bad mother. But I was like, what has happened? They, I don't know. I actually don't know because it just happened yesterday and I was like shocked. I was like a duolingo streak with your friends? I think it'd be one thing to be like, yeah, I play chess every day. But why are friends involved? It's sticky. They made it stickier.
- [28:35]
B
It is, it is. They recognized every single kid that's literally on the floor of the germ filled gym arm wrestling each other for fun. Oh, they like this, right? They like to compete. They like the challenge. And so I just think it's a beautiful thing when families in the home can sort of embrace. It's like the thousand hours I said tracker. I love it. I love it because you're teaching habit tracking and that small steps are leading to big changes. And also you are competing and I think it just hits all of those boxes offline. You know, you don't have to have evidence of a streak on a screen because you have it on your fridge right there and you can see that you're working towards your goals. And I like that. It's little ideas like that that probably most parents do, but probably haven't stepped back and thought, oh, this is what they try to do in Silicon Valley. Like, you know that a lot of Silicon Valley tech startups have child psychologists on their payroll and I think a.
- [29:33]
A
Lot of toy manufacturers do.
- [29:35]
B
They do. They do because they want to know why do kids, what do kids like and why do they like it and how can we sort of manipulate that a little bit? Well, we're not using it for that. You know, we don't want to manipulate our kids. We want to get, we want to give them the best future that they're created for. So is there a way to.
- [29:53]
A
To take those questions? Those are such good questions, Erin, what do kids like and why do they like it and how can I help facilitate those things in a healthy way?
- [30:03]
B
Yeah, how can I bring delight for the sake of something that is going to move them forward rather than keep them stuck, you know, working towards somebody else's goal? So yeah, I like asking those questions. I like thinking about it. And so far I haven't come across a tech company that does it well. You know, I would love to. The capacity is there for technology to be so beautiful and lovely and it is in some situations, but I just find it's rare. Like duolingo. Take something lovely and then make it into like now you got to be on your screen every single day. You know, I know they're language lords. I don't like it.
- [30:40]
A
I want to talk about some of these because you have the best, best, best ideas. Just some of the specifics. So one of the things that technology has co opted is surprise. And I think what's interesting and you talk about this is that nature in a lot of hands on things we do, of course they provide all the same things. It's just slower. It's slower. Do you know where you can find a surprise? In the freaking garden. That's where you can find a surprise. And God made it that way. He made these huge pumpkin leaves that you have to look under or these huge cucumber leaves and you have to go searching for it and it even is fun for the adult. But it is takes a longer time than swiping on a screen to see what surprises next. Who liked your picture or whatever, who commented. So can you talk? I would like to hit just a couple of the specifics when talking about. It was such a good question. What do kids like? Why do they like it? They like surprises. So what's something that a parent could do? It's like you're grabbing it back. I am taking that back from these tech lords. I want to be the one, you know, I want to be the one that gives little surprises. What are some things that parents could do?
- [31:51]
B
My favorite thing that I relied on really, really a long time ago when my kids were young is we never used our microwave. And so I would just have it be like a little treasure chest of new weird things. And it was just stuff I would find. It wasn't. I didn't buy anything. There wasn't like a craft kit every day. You know, it was just if I found a really cool rock outside or if I wrote one the of wanted to write them a love note or if I replaced their tub of play doh because it was crusty, you know, I would just sometimes just stick it in the microwave for, like, back pocket fun. And then when the kids would come to my phrase for boredom was always, there's a surprise at every corner. I think Kim John Payne probably taught me that. And. Or there's something lovely around every corner. There's something always to be found. And I would always just like, kind of point to the microwave and they would find something in there and it would be fun now. Then they catch on, and then they look in the microwave and there's not anything there, which is also some form of surprise, you know, so then it's like, make something to go in the microwave that the whole family would love or anything of the sort I used to do. Gosh, I feel like when they're older, the best surprise is just it's weird things, you know, it would be like, we're just gonna take a drive, and you don't have to put on your shoes, and we're gonna have the windows down, and we're gonna listen to everybod everybody's three favorite songs, and we're gonna count how many fire hydrants we see and call it, you know, or just finding a way to integrate everybody's interests. You know, the kids is obsessed with the fire hydrants, with the kid that wants to make the playlist, you know, it's finding just. Just ways or we're gonna do this thing that is totally inefficient. I feel like once they're older, efficiency is a big deal. I feel like we're always harping in efficiency in my house because you have a whole household to run. And so sometimes I love just being kind of inefficient. Just squandering time and let. And doing nothing and saying, yeah, you can use the entire paint box today. That's fine, that's fine. Or, oh, my gosh, Jenny, this was a bad move. Don't. And don't anyone do this. So I let the kids make. They wanted to make a pond. I didn't know. You should call the city about power lines or all of that or whatever electricity lines are underneath. They're fine. They did. I know. They're fine, they're fine, they're fine. But my husband came home from out west and he was like, oh, my gosh, what did you guys do? But they. They put the plastic down. They dug and dug and dug. Then they had a whole ecosystem. Then they were bringing the water in, and then they brought a turtle they found somewhere else. The turtle died because it can't live in the plastic. But it was just. It was just a whole. It was an experiment. And yes, you know, just can. What's the harm? And I don't want holes in my yard. But also, is it fixable? Could I just put the dirt back in there? Yeah. And so build the pond and then leave it for three months and forget about it and then find it again and say, remember when we made that pond? That was really cool. So I don't know. It's lots of things that take margin to say yes to. And I'm not saying we're always going to be in that space. So even if it's just a little candy on their pillow every now and then, even if it's just a, hey, I'm going to pick you up with a smoothie instead of just picking you up with. Here are all the things we have to do next kind of thing. Yeah, just little things. It's just thinking about what might delight the other person. And those things take time and they take energy and they take thought. And I think that's why I'm such a believer in chasing slow. It's because then it's giving you time for the other person, for the people in front of you.
- [35:26]
A
I just love the idea. I think it almost gamifies because that's another one. And we'll talk about that in a minute. It's like, what are these strategies that the tech companies are using? So one of them is novelty or surprise. And you wrote in Opt out family, like I'm telling you, this book has gobs of ideas. Welcome your 10 year old home from school with a can of silly String. Leave a love note on your teen's mirror. Serve pizza for breakfast. Take a last minute road trip to see a giant bubblegum wall. Skip work and school so everyone can play board games and stay in their pajamas. Surprise your teen with concert tickets. Build a rock climbing wall in your son's bedroom. Wake your son up at midnight for a hot fudge Sunday. We did a surprise trip based off of this idea. So we had our, we made a thing on our. Yeah, we printed it out. It was like, surprise trip coming. Here's what you need to pack or leaving at such and such day, you know, and it taped it on their doors and you know is everyone's like, where are we going? When? Even the whole time we're driving, it's like, well, we're going to be there in, you know, in four hours. And then they're trying to look at the map and figure out, you know, well, four hours, like we could be going that direction and we packed a bathing suit, you know, we're going to be by the water. And it's like it can be big or little, but the technology companies have co opted the surprise and the novelty. And so to me there's a little bit of a game game there. Like, well, can I take it back? As the air turns crisp and holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. And for me, Quince delivers comfort that lasts. They have it all. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear. Denim that never goes out of style. Silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Perfect for gifting or let's be honest, upgrading your own wardrobe before those holiday photos. Honestly, Quince's Italian wool coats are at the top of my list because the cut feels designer, the quality rivals high end brands, but the price is about half because Quinn's works directly with ethical top tier factories and skips the middlemen. So you get luxury quality without the luxury markup. For me this season, my go to has been my Quince cashmere because it is soft, classic and somehow it goes with everything. Oh, and my all black quince puffer jacket is always at the ready for those chilly mornings. So step into the holidays with layers made to feel good. Look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com q/outside free shipping, 365 day returns. Quince.com outside and you talk about how infusing surprises in your home, while exponentially worth it, can seem like a full time job. There's going to be expenses, there's time and money and on many days we're pretty tired. We're trying to stay afloat but. But that can just be so much wonder that you infuse in for your kids just by taking that back from the technology companies. Gamification is another one. You gave this really adorable idea about the jelly bean in the pocke.
- [38:18]
B
You love the jelly bean. The pocket. I love that you love that one. That's not. Yeah, my friend taught me that. Yeah. So okay, you know how everybody leaves their coats on the floor instead of hanging them up when the coats. Right. The rack is right there. Jenny, why do they do this? And so I had a friend that was just like, hey, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to, you know, catch the good in my kid or whatever. And so she just one day put a jelly coat or jelly bean in the coat pocket of her kid that put the coat on the hook. And of course she kind of gave him a little wink and then he went to go find the jelly bean and then he makes this massive deal about it. And so all the other kids are like, where's my jelly bean? Where's. And she just says like good things come to those who hang their coats up. And then from that day forward the rhythm and the habit was established. Right. So I mean all of these things feed into, really into other things. You know, it's the idea that surprise, novelty, delight, you know, these things produce a feeling of love and connection which produces really good character too, you know. So I think you can really thrive in an environment where you want to maintain good habits. You see the connection between forming a good habit and your life being a little bit more enjoyable, you know. And that's an important connection for our kids to see. So all of it, it, it really does feed into each other.
- [39:41]
A
This is all the things that the algorithm does and, and they're taking it away from us. I think I loved how you wrote about in here. The six year old comes running like it's Christmas morning because he found a jelly bean in his pocket. I winked and said, good things come to a coat in a closet. And I haven't tripped over a parker on the floor since. It just makes it, like, the whole thing. I love reading books that I walk away thinking, I want to live more like that. There's no shame in it. There's no finger wagging. You know, it's just like, oh, yeah, I want to do that. I want to do that. I want to try that idea. We did the. You know, we've talked about it, but we did the Abraham Lincoln hat.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah.
- [40:18]
A
Idea where people. We just had, like, this notepad out on the table, and people just put random notes in this Abraham Lincoln hat. And then we'd, like, tip it over on Sunday nights and read it, and we'd never laugh so hard. Everybody basically just made fun of each other all the time. But it was just a really good, really special thing, and it's, like, filled with surprises. And I was just impressed at how many ideas you could come up in with for a book like that. And it just goes to show that there are. There's, like, the. The tech companies, they really only have a couple tools. They're using them well, but they've got the tool of endless scroll and swipe and refresh. Right. And likes and comments and streaks. Then their toolbox kind of ends.
- [41:00]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:01]
A
And you look at a book like yours, and you're like, no, this is kind of an endless amount of tools and things that we could do. And it's just an enticing way to live as opposed to, like, a turn your screen off way to live. And that is in line with what you're doing with your family. So there's another one in here that you talk about. And I think this kind of relates to the yurt thing. I keep bringing up the yurt thing because it's so. It just kind of so, like, you can't really put your finger on it. Like, when I'm with you, I'm like, what. What's it. What exactly is going on?
- [41:32]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [41:33]
A
But. But you talk about shared goals, and so I guess this also goes in line with the duolingo thing, which is like, well, if you get a bunch of kids who are learning chess on duolingo to have shared goals, then it's going to entice them on more. Now, there's good there and bad there. There's promise and peril, but the shared goals is a motivator for people. And so it's another thing that's being co opted by the algorithms. And so the yurt thing is a shared goal. Like your husband's taking out this kid to help work on the electrical, and this kid's going out and working on the woodworking, and you're going out on as a family and building a deck. So can you talk about how families could take that goal of shared goals? Can I think of another word very quickly? Nope, I can't. That goal of shared goals. And gosh, I. We don't do that enough either, really. You know, I think I, I talked to this woman named Jessica Smart, who I really like. She has a book that just came out called Come On Home. You would really like it. She's similar to you where she has so many practical ideas. So she's got this book, it's called Come On Home. And she was in the throes of writing that, and she grabbed all our kids together and was like, look, I'm going to be a little bit busier, and, you know, we're going to be a little bit underwater. And everybody knows there's a lot of things that go into maintaining a house. And so the kids are like, okay, well, just tell us what we have to do, you know, and we'll do it. And she was like, actually, I need for all of you to figure it out. And then she walked away. And I was like, oh, you know, the kids are teens. The oldest ones are teens, so they're not like, really little. But I actually thought that was a brilliant idea. It's like, okay, we, we had. Here's a problem, and I couldn't need for all of you to solve it.
- [43:07]
B
Yeah.
- [43:08]
A
And then we have this shared goal. Everyone's bought in. And I, I looked at, I'm like, I think about our own life and it, even though we homeschool, I'm like, it can become so individualized. So can you talk about the, the streaks? Like, let's, let's have a shared goal as a family.
- [43:24]
B
Yeah. Well, I would say too, the interesting thing about shared goals, you don't always know what it is until you're, until you're in it. Sometimes an individual goal becomes a shared goal because everybody's on board and everybody finds something to like about it. And there are, again, there are so many great things about, like this out west thing. Right. My husband's a hippie. He's very off grid. I'm very on grid, you could say. I mean, I really like, I like my grocery store. You know, I like A lot of modern conveniences about living in a Midwestern neighborhood. I like my bike.
- [43:58]
A
Well, water.
- [44:00]
B
I like water.
- [44:03]
A
I mean, like, the beginning of the yurt situation is that, like, this is just land. And I keep saying yurt. And I know that you're doing cabins.
- [44:10]
B
They are cabins, but still. I mean, but at the meeting, it.
- [44:13]
A
Was yurts, because it was like, you get a yurt, and you get a yurt, but basically it was just like, pretty much a plain piece of land.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah.
- [44:20]
A
I mean, there's not a grocery store, but there's also not a lot of other things either.
- [44:24]
B
Nothing. It was. There were. There was dirt, and I don't even think we had grass in area. It was. It's. I mean, you know, it is just raw land. And so that was not my shared goal. I will say, you know, I was not super gung ho excited about it. I was up for the adventure, and I thought it would be. I thought it would be a lot harder than it actually was. I think that what was in my head was sort of. I was like, proactively lamenting the leaving of this comfort home that we built. We've worked really hard on roots in the Midwest, and like you said, our kids are in theater. And I thought we had the loveliest life. And then this thing happened, and I would say it happened in such a. It all felt as if we were really sort of magnetically drawn to this area for really big reasons. And so I wasn't going to question any of it. I was just like, okay, well, let's give it a try. You know, there's great way to live. So after one summer, though, it was funny how that did become a shared goal, in a way, was really just learning how to survive. Right. We're bathing in the river. You know, it's. How do we do. I don't know how to cook here. We've got fire. We didn't have electricity at the beginning. We lost power many times. You're just finding a new way to live. And so I think sometimes shared goals, we think of them as like having a big family meeting, and everybody writes down what they want to learn and what they want to do. And sometimes it works that way, but sometimes your situation changes. And the shared goal is simply, how do we survive with what life has given us right now, and how do we find ways to enjoy it? And you know what? I mended a chair for the first time this summer with paracord. And my kids taught me, and it was the most fun thing ever. And now I'm going to start a chair mending thing on the side. It was just a blast because we just had this camping chair and it broke and I fell through it and I needed that chair. I didn't have another chair and we didn't have a grocery. And Amazon takes weeks, you know, to get all the way up there. So that can be a shared goal. You know, it could just be sort of the idea of working within your own limitations and your boundaries. And then there are so many moments within that shared goal. Like whenever I ask the kids, what did you even like about living out west? And we'll be making a full time move out there. So we talk about it quite a, quite a lot. But whenever we talk about living off grid for just three to four months, different things come back this morning. My youngest was just like, I just really liked reading Peter Rabbit. And I'm like, well, we could do that anywhere. Much more comfortable ways to do it. And then my middle son is like, I just like to work. I wanted to work on anything. I wanted to work on all this stuff that was available. And there were. So it was like the whole world was his laboratory in a way that we can't recreate in the house as well. And then my oldest daughter was just like, I liked meeting all the new people. So I think when we talk about these grand adventures and all of these changes we're making and all these transitions we're working through, we assume the aesthetic, right, we're looking at the external and sort of the big picture stuff. But all of those little things are the things that our kids sometimes enjoy more. And those can be done in any season, in any budget, in any timeline, in any, in any lifestyle. And that's what I'm more interested in is how are we finding a way to honor life really and challenges and the resources we have and find a way to enjoy it and find a way to make us maybe grow closer to each other and to ourselves. So I don't know, it's. I don't remember what your question was.
- [48:14]
A
Now, but I, I think you answered it actually in a way that I wasn't expecting. And I, I really love the answer. It's about shared goals. So one of the ways that screen manufacturers are co opting our kids time and attention as well as our own is through these shared goals. I mean, there are shared collective society goals that are like, well, you need to have this many followers. It is hard. You and I have talked about this. It's hard to even get a book Contract to these days, you may have wonderful things to say. You may have the best book idea that that has ever existed, and unless you have 10,000 followers, you might not be able to get that book contract. So that has become a shared goal that is a part of the societal fabric that really impacts at a. At a deep level, whether you want to be a part of it or not. So it's like, well, how can we take that concept of shared goals, like a. Like a streak on Snapchat that you've connected with other people, or streak on Duolingo? How can we take that concept of shared goals and make it work for our family? And to your point, it's like a lot of it comes out of upheaval, or also it might come out of individual goals or necessities. You know, it's like, well, Jessica Smart had a book to write, and, okay, guess what? Everyone's gonna have to step in, or mom's chair broke, and we're not gonna be able to get another one. So it's almost like the. It's like by living life and living life a little bit on the edge and trying new things and stretching, you create opportunities for interdependence.
- [49:42]
B
Oh, that's a way better way to say that. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Well done, Jenny. Yes, good answer.
- [49:48]
A
I'm just paraphrasing.
- [49:49]
B
No.
- [49:50]
A
And the word interdependence is not coming from me. It's coming from a man who wrote a book called Family Economy. The Family Economy. His name is Rory Groves. So that book, the word. Obviously, like, he didn't make up that word, but he talks a lot about it because. And so does the hobby lobby guy. I was able to interview him. He came from a. His name is David Green, and he grew up in, like, a. Like, a lot of poverty. I think they would have, like, one chicken and that someone would give it for their tithe. And they had, like, six or seven kids, you know, so, you know, that's the situation. And he talks about how there was a ton of interdependence in their family because there had to be. And it's harder to keep interdependence and shared goals when you don't need it and everybody can go live their own lives. And yet this is a key to a good life and to connection. And so by saying we're all going to build the deck together, maybe we could afford to get it done, you know, or whatever, but we're going to do it together. That's really important for our Humanity. So I thought you answered the question incredibly well.
- [50:57]
B
No, I love that thought. I do. You're right. It's often born from restraint. And I like the idea that we don't have enough hardship. I don't think. And so we're trying to manufacture hardship or our brains are trying to look for hardship. And so I do. I think we have hard things, but. And I think that everybody has a different definition of what would be hard for them versus someone else. So we would never. You know, it's hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes all the time. But I do think for us, we do grow more when we are living off grid, trying to figure out how to get water. It's hard and it's. But it's also really very peaceful because your mind is only focused on one thing, and that's survival.
- [51:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, you have this. You have this life. You really like it. You're like, we've got community. Things are going well. This is going to throw a. Wait, what was the word you used? I wrote it down. I was going to say tizzy and. Hold on, I've got. We are going to rejigger. We're going to rejigger. But the re. Jiggering. And I think that's it. Like, you have to be brave. Go try it. Go try all of these ideas in these books. You know, try some of them. At least try them. And then what. What trying does and being brave does and leaving things behind that you don't want anymore, it probably is going to create opportunities for interdependence. Like it. Maybe the whole point is that you can't. Some of it, you can't manufacture. Like, it just is built out of a life that's a little bit on the edge. And so then those opportunities come, and I think that they're important. I. I love Aaron. Really. What's interesting to me about both books is they revolve around this similar question. So in Chasing Slow, you say, will we be cast aside? Will we be cast aside for not keeping up with the pace, for not playing by the rules? This is like a wrap up to Chasing Slow. Am I going to be left behind? And in opting out, you talk about, will my kid be left behind? Will my child be left behind? Because they're not doing all of these. These pieces of technology. If I continue to restrict access to technology, will my child get left behind? And you. And you say, absolutely not. Like, absolutely not. The kid who's going to get left behind is the one who can't concentrate. Someone just said that the other day about readers. Like the ones that are going to get left behind are the ones that can't sustain their attention long enough to. To read books and to. And to grow in that way. It's not that children are little scientists, is that scientists are big children that, you know, we have to be able to in some ways maintain our kids childlike state and also emulate it to a degree. And so I just love that the whole of your being is your books, but it's also you. It's all intriguing. I was like, what's going on over there? Like even when you hot. Even when you hop down, I'm like, where are you?
- [53:55]
B
Oh my gosh. I know, I know. Which is so funny. I'm not. You're making me sound like a very fun, spontaneous person. I'm not. I like everything on the calendar and my kids, my go to is often no so much that I. They know now if they want to ask for something wild, they have to write a poem about it. And so.
- [54:14]
A
But even that, Aaron, even that. That's such a cool idea. That's such a cool. Winnie wrote her first poem the other day. Do you want me to read it too?
- [54:21]
B
Oh my gosh, yes, I do. Okay.
- [54:23]
A
She wrote a poem because she's doing this piano competition and they are allowed to write poems and submit them and oh, I gotta find it. And if they. Okay, here's her poem. It's called when the Music is near. Clang, smash, bonk mash. Is that what you hear when music is near? Ding dong. Is that a song? That's what I hear when music is near. Do re me music. Could it be? Why yes, it is loud and clear.
- [54:52]
B
Benny, get that girl a book contract. I love her. That's so.
- [54:57]
A
But what a fun idea, Aaron. Even that, that is actually a surprise idea. If my kid came to me and was like, look, you know, I got one kid that really likes shoes and was like, look, I. I want to get these pair of Jordans. I'd like if you write me a good poem.
- [55:11]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yes. Yeah.
- [55:14]
A
So you are. No, you are really fun. Oh, you have got incredible ideas, incredibly creative ideas. And I think that the. This is my opinion, this is sort of what I see. You do them. You don't just write about them, you do them. Like this is coming out of a life that you've lived. And that, that to me is like what. What is so intriguing is someone who says, look, I can walk away from these different Things I'm going to trust. I'm not going to be left behind and I'm going to try something different and then I'm going to tell it to people and say, this is how it worked for us. This is how our life turned out. And you talk in the book about the stopping and starting cues like that. The screens are just endless, you know, so we got to have good stops and starts for our kids. It just, there's like idea after idea after idea and you do them. You actually do them. So I'm just always intrigued and inspired and honored to know you and thankful as we head into a new, you know, a new year, which is always crazy. I'm like, gosh, time flies. If you're wanting to slow down, if you're wanting to opt out, if you're feeling like, you know, I'm at the tail end of a bunch of decisions and I want to take a step backwards, you can do that.
- [56:27]
B
Yeah.
- [56:27]
A
And your book, your books are the, like the culmination of doing it both as an adult and as a kid and as a family unit.
- [56:36]
B
Thank you, Jenny. Thank you. I feel exactly the same way about you. You know that already.
- [56:41]
A
Oh, this was so fun.
- [56:43]
B
Oh, I love you.
- [56:45]
A
That's so fun. Aaron, I so appreciate your time and I appreciate the books that you've written and the ideas you put out into the world and the fact that you live them and allow other people to see it and inspire. We need that, you know, because things are, there's so much conformity. It's like you need in the power of just one person, one family who's like, nah, well, we're not doing it. I'm gonna be an author, but I'm not on social media. Yeah, it just gets everyone else's mind spinning. It's really, it's really good.
- [57:10]
B
Thank you. We love you.
- [57:13]
A
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