← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 620: How Do I Make Friends? | Jennie Allen, Find Your People
00:56:22
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- [00:02]
A
Hello, friends.
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B
Guess who. That's right.
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A
It is I, the replacer. Once again, I've been called on so you can play the new Call of.
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Duty Black Ops 7.
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With three expansive modes, 18 multiplayer maps, and the tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever freaking seen.
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Call of Duty Black Ops 7, available now. Rated M for mature.
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A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and Jenny Allen is here today. Welcome, Jenny.
- [00:38]
B
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [00:40]
A
So the last Christmas that I was at, people were giving your book for Christmas gifts. No, this feels like a really big moment for me. Like a pinch me moment. Isn't that great? I was like, oh, that's fantastic. So I have two of your books. You have so many books.
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B
But.
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A
But I have find your people, which is so important. Building deep community in a lonely world. And also, get out of your head. Stopping the spiral of toxic thoughts. New York Times bestseller. Over a million copies sold. Jenny, that's such a big deal. I had a book that sold like 10,000 copies.
- [01:11]
B
You know what? I've been there too, girl. Just keep plugging away. You never know.
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A
One million copies.
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B
Honestly, you never know when Covid's gonna hit. Cause that's what happened. That book came out two. We are a month or a few weeks before COVID hit. And so the timing of it with the subject matter was pretty perfect.
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A
So, you know, stopping the spiral of your toxic thoughts. Okay, so then you just had a new kids book come out. It's called what to do with your whirly swirly thoughts, which is mirroring get out of your head, which is a bummer because I prepped on finder people. I kind of messed up today. But can you talk about. I mean, we are in this time period of life where, like, the mental health is plummeting, and it's not just for adults. It's for kids too. Can you talk about what led you to write those two books? I think it's so amazing that you. That you did a kids version.
- [01:57]
B
Oh, thanks. I always wanted to do a kids version because it really is rampant. I mean, anxiety, the. I mean, the scary thoughts kids are having. I mean, I have multiple friends whose child has said to them, these are great parents. This is. These are pretty average, healthy kids. Said they want to kill themselves. You know, multiple parents walking through that. So I just want to say, you know, that you're not alone if you feel like your kid is struggling. We're all struggling. Right. Like this is a mental health crisis all over the world right now. And, and I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We could get into that. But, but at the end of the day we just know it's true. And we've, we've experienced it in our homes, we've experienced it ourselves. But when I think about kids, I mean it, it just was so clear to me from the very beginning that when I tackled the subject, I had to do it for kids as well because they are, they are just spinning and they don't know what to do. And there are real helpful things that God has given us that we can do and they work. And so my hope is that, that these, these books give adults, if you're reading, get out of your head or kids if you're reading, what to do with your worldly swirly thoughts, really clear handles of, of things that can help.
- [03:15]
A
Yeah. And, and there's a lot of tie ins here because if we are a little more connected with our relationships, if we have better community. And that's one of the things that you talk about in find your people that's going to help too. You know, you talk about how loneliness, I'm trying to transition.
- [03:31]
B
We can absolutely. All of these things are tied. I mean, I wrote find your people right after get out of your head and it was very intentional because there was no doubt underneath the problems that we're facing, we're the most isolated generation that's ever lived on earth. And that is not disputed. You can look back at every generation that has ever lived before us and they were dependent on each other for survival. Until the industrial revolution, every single person on Earth depended on a community to live. You had to heart, you know, you had to harvest food together, you had to hunt, you had to gather. Like this is part of what everyone did to survive. You had to come together in communities to do schooling or education, to work, to provide. So, you know, this is, this is just real. And 80% of the world today is living in a village like existence that still serves a lot of those needs for community. So it really is just a really difficult cultural moment for all of us. And I don't think we know any better than we don't know how it was. In fact, when I researched find your people for six months, it just broke my heart because I, I realized, oh gosh, like we are at the biggest disadvantage ever. And then add technology to the mix, it just, I mean now we Amazon prime anything we need and we don't even borrow, you know, anything from each other anymore. So we truly have built a world where we just don't need other people. And it's heartbreaking.
- [04:59]
A
It was interesting to read about all of these different communities that you had researched, because you talk about how there was this one where they. The women were out washing their clothes in the river, and you're, you know, you would think, well, gosh, that seems like a really big disadvantage. That would take a lot of time. And, you know, maybe the river water's not that clean, and. And this is how they're having to spend their days. But then once the washing machines came in, the depression increased, and so it's just a combination of. You wrote about it so beautifully. Well, first of all, they're out in the sun. I'm going to read it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay. They spent their late afternoons at the river's edge, which. I mean, late afternoon is kind of a hard spot. Families often. Late afternoon is like the, you know, the dip. Yeah. Trying to figure out dinner, and everybody's fussy. But also, late afternoons are real beautiful. It's like, usually like that peak of the sun, and it's kind of warm. They spent their late afternoons at the river's edge, washing their family's clothes by hand, there in the sunlight. They would swap stories. They would ask questions. They would check in with each other. Most days they would laugh so hard that they'd cried. These women were stuck in the throes of poverty, but you wouldn't know it. Interestingly, once, nearly every home in the village had its own washing machine. The prevalence of depression among the mons in that region rose sharply.
- [06:16]
B
Isn't that just heartbreaking? Isn't that just heartbreaking? So everybody wonders, like, why am I so lonely? There is a real reason that we were not built to live this way. I mean, you look at. If, you know, if you're a believer and you read and study and believe the Bible, you. You look at Genesis, and when God created man, the very first thing he says about him is, it's not good for him to be alone. So this is, you know, and he. I don't think he just meant marriage, Although that played out great. You know, now you reproduce all that. But. But he just meant it's not good for us to do things alone. And. And I think everything we're doing, we've built very independent societies that. That don't require each other for survival anymore. And therefore, we don't reach out and we. You know, it's so funny, even today, I actually Posted on Instagram about. You know, don't, don't fear bothering your people. Like it feels good to be needed. And I think we all actually are craving that, that someone would reach out to us because they need something that actually feels good. And we're so afraid of being needy that we never do it.
- [07:24]
A
And we talk about that in this book. You lost friends because of that, that they felt like that was lopsided. And so you had, you know, you had to do work to fix that. So it's really interesting the you call the U the usa, the land of fast loneliness. And it all is tying in talking about the Depression. The depression rises with the washing machines. People used to be out and they would hang their laundry in their backyard. I mean I remember the house I grew up in. There was a laundry line back there and it would, it butted up to the neighbor. So you'd be out there and you'd hang your laundry and you would connect, you'd be outside, you're doing something with your hands. All of those things tie in to helping with the mental health. But the situation is, and I think this is so great. You say the question that you get asked most often, how do I make friends?
- [08:11]
B
I know that that is really true when I said that, especially now I've written a book on it so people don't ask me as much. It's like I've said my piece, but at that point in my life I got that all the time because I would talk about friendship. I would talk about friendship all the time. And, and people would just be like, I don't, I don't have friends. It was, it was so regular that.
- [08:30]
A
People ask me that and all ages, all ages. But dear to your point, the question that we get asked the most often is does sleeping in a tent count as being outside?
- [08:42]
B
Sure.
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A
You know, because people like. I'm like, I don't think so actually because you're sleeping. But you know, you said it's almost like it's like a first graders question. How do I make friends? And yet your point is such a good. No one ever really teaches you how to.
- [08:56]
B
Nobody taught you that. I mean socially, I think we, we are part of a giant experiment right now with technology that is just failing us miserably. And you think about how young kids are getting phones now. Those are valuable years that you would learn it. So it's even worse for this generation coming because they, their idea of friendship is just who follows them, who their friends on social media, who they snap with. You Know, it's just. It's so tricky. It's. It always was, but it's just only gotten trickier, I'm afraid.
- [09:30]
A
That is such an interesting point, Jenny, because what I might classify as a friend, someone 10, 20 years younger, might. Might have a different classification. Like, they would look at it so completely different.
- [09:41]
B
Well, it was really fun to look at it really scientifically. So there was real definition to what the work I did. And, and what you saw was that we're really not able to have more than three to five daily friends, just friends that you would call, be extra close with. They would know everything going on in your life, you would know everything going on in theirs. We just don't have capacity for more than that. And then there's another layer of friendship that I think is probably the most common for people, which is just people that you would take fifth a casserole to their house if they. You found out they had cancer or you would do something for them, you would pray for them, you would send them a Christmas card. That's a different layer. And we really don't have much more than room for about 50 in that category. And then you go to the next layer, and it's about 150. And that's really the village that I talk about a lot in the book is just we really were built for a village because those. What we do is we try to look for a best friend or we try to look for two best friends, and we think that they should meet all of our needs. And when that's just not realistic. That's not how societies were built. That's not how friendships should exist. It would become very codependent if that were true. And so the better way. And some of you are listening, you're like, I don't even have one friend. I don't even know what you're talking about. Well, you do have more than you think, because you exist in a village, some sort of village experience, whether it's because your kids play soccer with somebody else. And I, I try to say, quit looking for community and just realize that you are communal. Like, you are a communal person. You were built by God to live communally. Even your, you know, your, your. Our introverted friends, they are built for that as well. We are built for connection. My, My counselor says, Dr. Kurt Thompson, he says we come into the world looking for someone looking for us, and we never stop. And so every room, every day, we're looking for someone that's looking for us. That. That's saying, hey, Jenny, I'm glad you're alive. I'm glad you're here. You know, I want to. Let's. Let's talk. Let's catch up. We're all looking for. What I tell people is it's terribly depressing and people are sad when I say it. But, you know, the bottom line is, how do you make a friend? You have to initiate. You have to initiate. And then everyone inevitably says, I have, I do. Nobody ever initiates back. And I would say, get over it, because that's the world we live in. And you can either initiate or not have friends. That's the two options. Because no one's coming for you. Like, you've got to go for them, and when you go for them. And I'm not saying there's never a time to say to your friends, which has. This has been said to me, hey, I need you to call. Like, call me sometimes. I need you to reach out to me sometimes. I'm not saying that there's never a time for that conversation. I'm just saying, quit waiting for someone to initiate with you. They're not going to. And it's just the world we live in, it's so sad. People would rather be in their robes watching people do life together. Because every single show we watch on television is about people doing life together. Every single show. The only one I thought of that was just one person is Tom Hanks on that.
- [12:55]
A
Yeah. With the volleyball.
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B
But he still made a. A volleyball friend. Like, he still made himself a friend. So, you know, that's what we're doing. We're getting you connect.
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A
I. I have not thought about that movie in so long, Jenny. But that volleyball is Wilson. I can. Well, obviously it's a Wilson volleyball, but, like, when. At. When they get separated, you feel heartbroken.
- [13:15]
B
Well, but the point is, like, we were made. We weren't made to live on an island alone. We'll create it out of a volleyball if we have to. And yet we're sitting at home saying we can't go out because. Or we can't initiate because we are tired and we want to be at home watching shows about people connecting. It just. It breaks my heart, and I really do think there's just a better way to live.
- [13:37]
A
It's so good. You wrote it over and over again. You say you'll never have friends unless you are willing to consistently initiate. It will always be awkward. People will say no, but keep inviting anyway. Friends won't fall from the sky. Friends are always made. Pull people in at every Turn, never do anything alone. And, you know, I thought, Jenny, it's so interesting. Like, you talk about how people are asking how to make friends at every age. You're like, they're 65. They're like, I don't know how to make friends. They're 22. They're like, I don't know how to make friends. And one of the benefits that would ripple out from you initiating is in small set of ways you're helping. Everybody is asking the same question. So you're helping other people learn how to make friends.
- [14:15]
B
You know, what is my favorite thing about this book is? I mean, this happened last week. I was speaking somewhere and a woman walked up and said, we did your book find your people with some girls, and now we're each other's people. And I love that people are reading it together. And, like, they don't have what they think they need. But when you read it with other people, all this and you take the initiative, you say, like, hey, come over. We're gonna read this book together. And that does take bravery. That does take, you know, the awkward nose sometimes. But I just, you know, it's like, this is possible if. If you. It could reframe everybody's mindset that this is the way we are built to live. Like, God built us to live this way.
- [14:58]
A
It does help you. So you haven't. In each of the chapters, like, people write in with what they're struggling with. It's like these different quotes. I thought it was actually a really great thing to put in a book because it's super relatable. And people are like, I, you know, I work full time. I'm in a new city. I'm at a large church. I'm having a hard time. You know, I. I work for.
- [15:16]
B
Oh, y. All. That was real.
- [15:17]
A
Yeah.
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People sending in their Instagram comments.
- [15:20]
A
Yeah, there you go. I feel like a burden, so I don't go deep. And you had talked in here about even, like, the whole. In the whole premise of the book. You're like, I'm writing about finding your people. And in the course of this book, I'm losing my people. And I related to that. You know, like, you, You. You have things going on, and especially if you have another project. So, like, you run this if gathering. You've got all these things going on. Just throw a book on top of it. Then you got edits and you're like, everyone's doing things and I can't go because I gotta work and I've got to do these Things. And this John Acuff talks about because he travels a lot for work. He talks about, like, travel John versus home John. And he talks about how, like, his friends kind of have to get used to travel John. Yeah, I don't actually think that that works. Maybe it's like a woman thing, but. Because I was like, oh, my friends are just gonna have to understand. This is travel, Jenny. But I. I'm like, I don't. It actually has not worked out for me, like, at all. And you were talking about the same thing. Like, when you're overloaded with all of these different things, stuff starts to slip away. So you say it had been so long since you were available to hang out, people had stopped calling in your mind, they'd moved on, and you were alone on the outside. So can you just talk about that busyness piece? Obviously, we live in a world that's fast moving, a lot of hustle, and so friendships can really get.
- [16:41]
B
Yeah.
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A
Left on the wayside. And even people might be like, well, I don't even need that.
- [16:46]
B
Well, so let's just start with a few basic principles that I learned as I researched. I did a lot of historical research. I usually do. I mean, I always do biblical research, and then I usually do scientific research, and I did for this book as well, but a lot of it turned into history and how people have lived throughout time. So from that study and that research, I made a few rules. So when I wrote this book, I just moved to Dallas, you know, way within two years of writing that book, and I had to make new friends. And so I took some of the work I was doing and just said, okay, I'm going to make some rules for myself. And one of the rules was I'm going to shoot to make five friends that live within five miles of me. And I know there's exceptions to this. There's people that just live in the country. And I would just say, well, when.
- [17:36]
A
You live in the country, 20 miles is like five miles, like your normal change.
- [17:39]
B
Whatever. Right? Whatever makes sense for you. But. But for me, it was. I live in the middle of a big metropolitan city, and, you know, 5.5miles is about the extent of, like, I can last minute say, hey, let's grab dinner, or let's do something. And that changed my life. Having friends that live blocks from me changed my life. Because now we walk together. Now we. You know, I won't be surprised one bit if in a few hours they're like, hey, do y' all want to get together tonight? Like that it is always, constantly we see each other. I saw them this morning, we went and had small group together at a coffee shop for an hour. It is just regular and often that we can see each other and it doesn't take as much work. And so five miles, five friends. That's one rule I set for myself. Another rule is that we would be awkward and impromptu and so we wouldn't be afraid to show up at each other's house at any time, any point and just walk in. And these were just kind of guidelines we set for each other. That's changed our lives as well. I remember showing up at one of my friend's house with pizza and one night and just being like, let's see. And I knew her husband was gone, I knew, you know, her kids were there and so just starting to live more last minute. Let's do this together. Let's do this together. And that has been great. And then another rule was just try never to do things alone. So that's, I mean even just moving the needle slightly on this can be a lot for you. So if you're going to go to Costco, ask your friend to go with you. If you're going to take a walk, ask your friend to go with you. If you're going to. You know, right now I'm working out in the morning with my, my husband, my daughter, her best friend, who's also my assistant. And it's so fun because on the way there I like oh, I'm gonna, gonna get to see Kate, I'm gonna get to see Peyton, you know, and my son in law comes a lot of the time so there's just this excitement that I'm gonna see them and it's regular, it's what I'm doing anyway. I would need to get up and move my body anyway. And so this is choices we've made to, to really try to do life with people we love.
- [19:48]
A
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- [23:13]
B
And not. And then the other thing I would say that I had to do. And, and this is just because so often you can feel like your calendar hacking, you know, trying to find time to see each other, and it just, you're planning like a month out. Like, you're like, oh my gosh, I don't have, I don't have time till October to see you. And then all of a sudden it's weeks away and, and then you have to miss it. And then it's another three weeks before you get it back on the calendar. And I just realized I needed regular things on my calendar times to see people. So a small group can do this. A Bible study can do this. In fact, I just signed up for a local Bible study in my neighborhood. And it's so funny because I usually am teaching them or something, like that's what I do. And. But I was like, you know, I just, and I travel a lot, so it just hasn't made sense for me to do that every season of my life. But I missed seeing my neighbors and my people and they all did this Bible study together. So I just like typed my name in and said, I'm coming. And it has been so delightful. And I just sit there. I barely talk at all, but I get to hug and see my neighbors that I don't always see. And so that for me, that serves that little 50 people circle, you know, it's not my three to five besties, but it's that circle of people that I'm like, I'm glad I know her and I love seeing her and it's so good to keep up with her and her kids and her Life and what she's up to. So it's just a different layer that I wasn't getting in my life because I was traveling and working. So those are a few rules of life that I kind of applied that have really served my relationships. It's fun to talk about this book because I actually wrote it several years ago, and I'm like, you know, I've actually gotten really good at this. Like, this is. The friends in that book are still my best friends. That was years ago, and we've had a lot of conflict, and we've worked through it and we've stayed. And I'm really proud of that part of my life. And it's not because it happened to me. I know a lot of people might think, well, yeah, like, you're a writer, like you're. People want to know you or something. I know they might think that, but the reality is, like, I had to work hard at this.
- [25:14]
A
I think in some ways, that makes it harder.
- [25:17]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [25:18]
A
Well, first of all, because people think you already have it. They get. They think they know you. They think that you already have it. They may just, you know, act odd around you just because of whatever status, like, weird status things there are, you know. And so, yeah, it's really. That's really incredible. I mean, you started with nothing in Dallas. You talk about. And you said you. You actually did the things.
- [25:39]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [25:39]
A
And that weekly Bible study reminds me of the women who are going to wash their clothes every day.
- [25:44]
B
Yeah.
- [25:44]
A
That's a consistent thing at a consistent time showing up.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah. And you don't have to. You don't have to work hard to plan it. It's there. Yeah.
- [25:52]
A
Yeah. So one of the things that you talk about. I think this is an interesting piece going back to the fact that no one really teaches you how to build friendships. You're just put in an environment where there's a bunch of other kids that are exactly your same age. There's all these activities for you. And so then you. And then you become an adult, and there's none of that. None of those structures exist. So one of the things that you really highlight in this book, and I love it, is mixed age friendships. So this isn't like all the second graders are friends with all the other second graders. This is like, you move to this new town, you know, no one, and you're like, 25 years ago, I had a camp counselor, and I really liked her. So I'm gonna call her and see if she'll be my friend or I I need help with my kids. You know, they're my friend.
- [26:33]
B
I. I just hosted her son's wedding shower this week. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was awkward. Yeah, this heck of awkward. We hadn't talked in like 20 years.
- [26:45]
A
And so I want to read what you wrote because it was so funny. These books are so funny. You say, I cannot overestimate. This is a really big deal, Jenny. I cannot overestimate how monumental this singular decision was in the overall course of things. And truly, especially if you just threw the shower. You say, you may not believe me when I tell you this, but one simple phone call, one seemingly inconsequential text can shift your course entirely. It was awkward when I reached out to that camp counselor after two and a half decades, not to thank her for being a positive influence during my teen years, but to ask her to be friends. I imagined her sitting there at the coffee shop across me thinking, how desperate must this poor woman be to have to dig all the way down to her teenage relationships to find a friend? I didn't care. I was desperate. So it's her and then there's this Caroline who, you know, you, like, you need her to be a babysitter, and she's even younger and she becomes a good friend.
- [27:40]
B
Yeah, she's very young. She. She came into my life as a college student, but then we ended up kind of raising my kids together. Right? Like, we're. She's helping me get through my life, and all of a sudden I look over and I'm like, she's one of my favorite people to be with. She still works for me now. She works for the organization, praise God. But. And she's like a director of events. Like, she's. She's really worked her way up from babysitter at my house and fold my. Fold my underwear. But she came a long way. But. But all that to say, like, you just start to realize, like, God is putting people in your life. You're just. You've got a box of what it should look like, you know, and. And you've. You really limit what he's doing because it has to be somebody that has the exact same age kids you have and somebody that your husband likes her. His husband, or if you're single, it's somebody that has the same schedule as you and doesn't, you know, travel a ton. Like, you just have all these rules and you set them in your brain, and then all of a sudden you're like, I'm lonely. I don't have any friends. It's like, quit who's around. Like, start sharing your life with them. Start bringing them into what's really going on. And God starts to move in that it's beautiful.
- [28:48]
A
It is. And you even talk about, look for someone approximately 15 years older than you. Ask her, what's one piece of advice you'd give yourself if you were in the same season I'm in? Like, wouldn't everybody want to be asked that question?
- [28:59]
B
Right? And we've lost that art, y'. All. That's the power. When I studied the history and the village life, it's like, man, like they have a good thing going. They are co raising their kids together. They've got grandparents that have already done this one round, two rounds. They've got aunts and uncles that live near. I mean most people that live in a village throughout history never moved more than really never even traveled, it said, more than 20 miles from their birthplace. So you've got, if you picture that like you, you've got so many people raising your kids together. And you think about like the way even in Africa when I would go visit, my son's from Africa, so he's, he's Rwandan. And we would go to little villages and in, in Rwanda. And again you leave jealous. You're like, they don't have front doors, but they're all laughing and doing life together and spending so much time. They've got a fire in the middle of their huts and they are sitting there like doing life together. And it's just multi ages, that multi.
- [30:02]
A
Age piece, which interestingly is really important for kids that all the research says the best type of play for kids is multi age. It's not all 7 year olds with 7 year olds and 9 year olds with 9 year olds. It's like, no, every age have the toddlers and the teens and everyone in between. And that's so good for their development. So you say invite a teenager or young woman alone on your carpool drives.
- [30:24]
B
Yeah, I mean I did that. So my babysitters always were just part of our lives. Like they would, they'd always want me to mentor them. Or like they'd be like, I want to know what you think about blank this boy. And I'd be like, great, like, I'll help you, I'll process that with you if you fold these clothes with me, like, I'll talk about it with you if you ride to carpool. I mean, I didn't have time for it. It's not like I was sitting there going, yeah, I'm just Bored. I really need to disciple you because I have nothing to do. So I just brought them along with me. And some of those girls to this day, like, reach out to me and. And tell me, like, now they're in that life stage and they're doing the same thing. It's so cute. So great. But we just tend to try to make it an addendum and we're too busy. So it's like, just bring people along with you. And my best friends were my single friends when we had young kids, because they could come over and, like, we could get in our pajamas and watch a movie after the kids were asleep and spend time together because they didn't have kids sleeping. You know, they could be more free. So I think just not putting it in a box like I think oftentimes you look for exactly people like you, and that doesn't always work out best. That if they are just like you, then they're living the same kind of life you're living.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah. The mixed age. And you give so many examples. Invite the newlyweds over for dessert. Find the lonely college girl in your town. Take a coworker to lunch. Lead that study in your house while kids nap or crawl all over you. Please. Today, this is how we change the world. So thinking about that mixed age, those relationships, and that's what they're doing in the villages, to your point. Okay. This is a. A conversation topic that I think is really tricky. It's tricky for me. I read this book earlier this year called the Hospitality of Need by a man named Kevin Chandler, who's in a wheelchair, and he needs care pretty much on the hour. And he talks. He has got a really solid group of friends because people care for him. And by having needs, that contributes to the relationship. And so you kind of brought this up earlier, but I'd love to dig a little bit deeper here, especially since you said you've lost friends over this one and even dirt. You said it happened during a podcast interview that your friend Jessica's like, you never need anything. You never need me. I want you to need me more. The part about having to ask for help, that actually having to ask for help is one of the things that builds community.
- [32:44]
B
You know, this makes me sad because, yeah, I. I tend to take the role of big sister on in all my relationships, which just means you're thinking about, how do I take care of you? What do you need? What do you. How can I help? You know, And. And I think that some people really love that. But I. If I Don't ever take it in reverse and really need the people that need me. Then I think they start to feel isolated or like a project that I'm trying to work on them or fix them, which is so fair. Now I see that more clearly than I ever have as such a weakness of mine. But I. Gosh, I've gotten so good at this, too. This is so fun to talk about years ago. I'm like, man, I've really matured in this way. And again, so thank you. Yeah, I'm Pat myself on the back, by the way, y'. All. This is a little facetious that I'm bragging like this, but. But I just. Here's what I think is I've gotten good at being needy. I'm not afraid of it. Like I say, within hours of feeling anxious, I'll say it out loud. If I. If it doesn't go away pretty much within an hour, I will. I will reach out to one of my friends and say, okay, I need to process this. I used to wait till it was all better, and then I'd say, oh, I've just been walking through this time, and. And I tell them how hard it was, and then they just started, like, losing their minds on me. Like, why didn't you. Like, I saw you in that timeframe, and you never said, like, you're. Are you crazy? Like, what's wrong with you? But I really thought I was. I don't know what I thought I was doing, but I was being so mature, I guess. Thought I was. And so I've learned just how. The power of saying things out loud, the power of saying them quickly. Yeah, it's. It's a game changer.
- [34:23]
A
You wrote, we call after the cry. And I was like, yep, yep. I'll be like, I was drowning last week, and now I'm better. So now we can have a conversation. And you say, if you want to be effective. Oh, it's so good, Jenny. Like, everybody wants to be effective, right? If you want to be effective, then ask for help. This makes other people feel needed, draws them together in a shared purpose. What's more, by taking this simple but vulnerable step, we start to build the community we are longing for. And then you said you learned from Caroline back to Caroline. You said, Caroline taught me in short order that my little village here, moving to Dallas, was going to come one because of my neediest neediness and desperation, not in spite of it. And to be built in unexpected ways and with unexpected people.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah, that's so good and true.
- [35:08]
A
Well, that's exciting, isn't it? You know, like, you think you want to control it, but you're like, no. Even just reading your story, you're like, this person pops up here, the old camp counselor happened to live in the area. And then it's. It's beyond what you could have expected. It's beautiful.
- [35:22]
B
I hope people will read this book, even that have good friends, because I don't think the way in general we're doing friendship is very effective. I think we're shallow in the way that we do need each other and that we don't know how to do it. We just don't know that it's supposed to be day in and day out, that we're supposed to call as soon as you feel anxious and process it. And, I mean, I have my friends, what they had to do for me, poor things. Like, all of them. They really should get paid more on all my books because they've taught me so much. But, I mean, I'll take them to dinner. Usually that's what they get, like, one dinner after it comes out. But honestly, like, they've taught me so much. And one of the things they taught me was just to not hide and to just bring whatever, wherever I am. And they really give me a hard time if I don't. And so they are just fierce and they. And they really fight for me. And I would just say some of you are thinking as you hear that, like, gosh, I wish I had a fierce friend fighting for me. I would just say, become that. And when you become that, then you will have it. And you'll look up all of a sudden and go, man. I think about my friend Sarah, who I wrote about in that book as well, who sat on my bed and said, jenny, nobody initiates. Nobody reaches out to me. She just moved to Austin when I lived there, and she was so angry and sad. Like, I feel like I'm the one that's always initiating. And I was like, sarah, get over it. Like, keep doing it. And she was going through a divorce at the time. And so she would have these nights, like, multiple nights a week where she didn't have her kids, and so she would be all alone. And so what I didn't know was that she started using those nights and developing whole other groups of friends. And the way I found out that she was doing this was when she had a stroke at 35 years old. And I'm in the emergency room, and there's about 50 people in the ER. This is two years after she Said that comment to me, okay. On my bed, I'm like, nobody pursues me. I don't know how to make friends here. So she spent those two years and all those nights that I couldn't hang out because I couldn't hang out as much as she could hang out because she, you know, didn't have her kids half the time. And so she took all those nights and she made herself a small army. And you talk to each group sitting in that er and they went to dinner with Sarah every other week and they did, they played pickleball, they did this with Sarah. Like they, everybody had a different story, but everyone in the waiting room said Sarah pursued me like Sarah had pursued them. And so she has a stroke. She can't walk, she can't talk. She still is recovering, although she's getting remarried right now and she's just thriving. But, but she is, she's still recovering, she's still in therapy years later. But, but all I know is she has an army. And, and you know, we're the, we're the kind of people that hope that people will be there when those days come for us. But we don't put any effort in and we don't pursue and we don't initiate. So I would say everyone was convicted watching Sarah's life and story, that we aren't those kind of people, that we, we haven't built that into our lives. And so, you know, we need it every day, but there's going to come times that we really need it and so we want to be sure. We've worked hard at building those friendships into our life.
- [38:46]
A
Talk to us about conflict. Because I, you know, I never, I never considered that if you're living in a community of a village of 150 people, which is like that Dunbar's number, like the ideal amount of people that you really cannot have long term conflict, like at all. You're gonna have to deal with it. So, you know, like when, when it says in the Bible that you forgive 77 times or 70 times seven, you know, whatever they say, like, well, how, when would you ever have to forgive someone 490 times? Well, if you lived in a village with, you know, with, if you never quit your people.
- [39:20]
B
Yeah.
- [39:20]
A
You can't, like you're stuck there, you're gonna have to forgive. And I think in our culture it's so easy to just hole up in your home and, and find someone else or just like let it be.
- [39:29]
B
Yeah.
- [39:30]
A
But in, in this 80% of the world, you can't do that. So can you talk about how to push through when it gets hard?
- [39:38]
B
Oh, let me talk about the two friends of that book because. Right, okay. So after I finished writing that book, I specifically tell the stories of two of my best friends in that book. It's Lindsay and Ashley. And they are. They still are my closest friends. They're like sisters. And when I wrote the book, we were just perfect. And then right after I wrote the book, before the book came out, they get in a huge conflict and they want to quit each other. And I'm just like, this is. Feels like my fault. This feels like spiritual warfare that's coming against our friendships because of this book that I'm going to put into the world. And so I was just so feisty. I. I took them to a pool and I bought Mexican food and I put them in the pool and I said, you can't get out until you work this out. And I. I have tacos and you're not going to starve, but we're not leaving until you work this out. And by the end of that. And it took. It took hours. And by the end of that, we kind of all made a couple. I mean, I hate to say the word covenant because that's like marriage. It's so strong, but it kind of was. It was. It was like, we are never going to quit each other. Like, this is. This is God given. We have been blessed with these friendships. We've worked hard these friendships. We've now been friends at this point for years. We are not quitting each other. So they were, like, reluctant, but they agreed and they worked it out. Well, just yesterday, I'm with the two of them and one of them is frustrated with the other one. Or. No, not frustrated. They had their feelings hurt by a phone call and. Or something happened. They made up in.02 seconds. Like, oh, I didn't mean it like that. I knew you didn't. I was just tired and cranky. I'm so sorry. Me too. I love you. Are we good? Yeah, we're good. And that was it. Prior to the fight. I'm talking about years ago, after the book came out. They'd never fought. Okay. Now they're like experts right now. It's like, I'm not going to hold on to this for more than a conversation. I'm just going to tell you that hurt my feelings and I'm going to bring it up and it's a little awkward, but it did. And she apologizes. She apologizes for being sensitive. They. It's Over. And it's like, gosh, we've come a long way. But what they have and what conflict did for them and what it does for all of us is it proves the friendship it makes. You know, we can have a fight and we can work it out. So it builds resilience in relationships. You can't be so afraid of it because it actually is a gift, because it. It shows you that you can stay. Because if you've never conflicted, then in the back of your mind, I always tell people you can't be good friends until you've had a good fight. And the reason why is because in the back of your mind, you wonder what will happen when. You wonder what will happen when they get mad. You wonder what will happen when you disappoint them. You don't know yet. And once you know, what happens is you can fight it out, you can apologize, you can make it right, and you can overcome it, and you'll be stronger for it. And so I'm someone who, you know, I love to fight. I bring it, like, bring me a conflict. I'm like, yeah, let's just work it out. I'm great with that. But there's a lot of people that aren't. And I would say both of them weren't the people that liked it. One of them did and one of them didn't, but now they're not afraid of it anymore. And it really has, I think, made all of us deeper and more committed because we've all fought. I fought with both of them. That wasn't a problem for me.
- [43:07]
A
It is an interesting thing. You say, though, that if it says in the Bible that you're supposed to forgive 77 times, well, then you're supposed to be rubbing up against people in a way that is causing conflicts. And if you're not, then that means you're probably not living in close enough proximity to each other. So it's normal. That's the whole thing. It's normal.
- [43:27]
B
Totally normal. To be expected. And don't be afraid of it. Like, lean into it. Learn. I mean, some of the greatest skills on earth to have is. I am so sorry. What can I do to make it right? Will you forgive me? Those three lines will serve you over and over again. I mean, we are so quick to give a defense. And it's. I've just learned at one time, someone was observing me having to do that. I have to do this all the time, by the way. All the time. Because I just am a big personality and I'm A boss. I lead a lot of people, and so I have to do this all the time. Somebody observed me, and they knew a lot about the situation, and they were like, Jenny, you. You actually didn't need to apologize for that. And I was like. I looked at her and I was like, are you crazy? I'm like, you. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. It doesn't matter if I was right or wrong. Like, you always apologize. Like, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't matter. They were hurt. Like, you just do it. And. And I just have learned, like, not to ever hesitate in that. And it's not. It's not insincere. I didn't want to hurt them, and I did. Even if it was not on purpose, even if there was a really good reason. It's just own it. And, like, you know, it reminds me of the verse that says, turn the other cheek. Because what he means by that is like, you can. He doesn't mean be passive. He means basically diffuse the situation. And the best way to diffuse the situation is to say, well, you're right. Like that diffuses it.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah, you're right.
- [45:01]
B
And it's not placating, because they are right to some degree. Right. Like, usually unless they're just flat liars, like, there is something to what they're saying. And so I just think that's probably the best skill we can learn for relationships is just to quickly, regularly apologize and ask the next question, which is, what can I do to make this right and hope that they'll. They're willing to engage in that.
- [45:24]
A
It's important. Conflict isn't the enemy to our friendships. Conflict is fodder to make them grow. And then you talk about how King David. I didn't know this. King David never defended his own name. He held people back from defending his own name. He was comfortable with being misunderstood.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah. That all came from a book I read about. Oh. Oh, gosh. The Tale of Three Kings. And it talks about Saul, David, and then David's son Absalom. And it. It's a. It's a little fictional, almost like a play reads like a play about these three kings. But, gosh, your takeaway from it is David was accused by Saul, hunted by Saul, hunted by his son Absalom, accused by his son, publicly accused by his son Absalom. And he never. He held himself back like, he did not defend. And that really taught me a lot in leadership. I've had to lean on that a lot.
- [46:21]
A
Wow.
- [46:22]
B
In leadership.
- [46:23]
A
And then you say God defended him.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah.
- [46:26]
A
He knew God would defend what deserved to be defended. Yeah, good advice. Okay. All right, here's something that I was like.
- [46:33]
B
This is.
- [46:34]
A
This is so interesting. So you're talking about. Okay, first of all, it takes 200 hours to get to, like, that deeper friendship. So I was with friends yesterday. They're fans of yours. Their names are Nicole and Melanie. So I'll shout them out.
- [46:45]
B
Hi, Nicole and Melanie.
- [46:47]
A
So they were. I was telling them that I was talking today and that I had learned that it's like this, 200 hours to be friends. So then I was calculating, like, I wonder how far can you talk about in the book? I'm like, we're 1% in or we're 17 in, but one of the things that you advocate for is just getting a fire pit. Get a fire pit. And this was so interesting to me, Jenny. Okay, so they. Someone studied. They were in Botswana and Namibia for 200 days, and they're studying the conversation that's happening in these villages. And so three quarters of the conversation that happens in the daytime was about work, but at nighttime, around the fire, the conversations changed. This is so wild.
- [47:33]
B
Right? I love research.
- [47:35]
A
Yes. The three quarters of those conversations were about spirituality or enthralling stories. They talked about adventures, elephants, politics, religion, dreams for their lives. Throughout history, villages have gathered around fires to cook, to plan, to dance and sing, to be together after the kids are met, are in bed. Fire has been the communal spot since the beginning of time. So that reminded me and really made me think to prioritize getting together with people at different times of the day.
- [48:05]
B
Right. Well, it was so funny. Just last week, one of our friends, we were going to get together to talk about work, but he is deeper than that. He wants to talk about dreams. He wants to talk about, like, what I'm thinking about and where we need to go and what needs to happen next. And. And he goes, you know, I'm just gonna say. And it was a group of us. And he goes, I'm just gonna say that I don't like to do lunch and I don't like to do coffee. I only like to do dinner because there's no end time. That's what he said.
- [48:35]
A
It's interesting.
- [48:36]
B
He said, it's the only time of the day that you don't have an end time.
- [48:39]
A
Yeah.
- [48:40]
B
And we can talk and we can dream and we can stay as long as we want.
- [48:44]
A
I thought that wasn't that interesting. Different types of conversations happen at different times of the day until, like, you Talked about the story where. Thought this was a good story. You got a friend that just stops by and they had just had their family pictures done. So, you know, like, you're. Everyone's in matching outfits. You're like in your robe.
- [48:59]
B
Lindsay. Yeah. With her kids. And they were hungry. And I was like, okay, so we. We set out by the fire. We were like, let's go outside. And we set out by our fire. And we stayed forever. And the kids stayed. There is something. The other thing I studied about fire that I thought was so interesting is that you stare at it. I don't know. I don't know. This is so bizarre. Everybody does. It's the same with water. If you're at the lake or if you're near a pond, like, you tend to stare at water. It relaxes you. I don't know. Your eyes, it's something moving and it helps relationships and conversations go better if you're not looking directly in people's eyes. And so that's why a lot of times guys will play basketball together or do something more physical. But I would just say that's really true. Like when you're sitting there looking at the fire, you kind of. You don't have to have good eye contact. You kind of. Your mind can wander a little bit. You can listen, you can. You can observe, you can feel things. It's. There's something about having a diversion almost that helps conversations go deeper as well.
- [50:00]
A
It's so good. And you have ideas in here for conversation topics. So you say get a fire pit, but also you have conversation topic ideas in here. I honestly think that most people just don't know how to ask good questions and how to genuinely share their hearts.
- [50:12]
B
Hurts.
- [50:12]
A
That's why conversations often drift toward complaining and gossip. And you've got these great ideas in here for conversation topics. I wanted to hit one last topic because I just love this quote and I never heard this quote before. So you're talking about shared purpose. You got family that's got a dude ranch in Colorado. So they, you know, everyone's. Who's. Who's working there has shared purpose. Purpose. But C. S Lewis has this quote that says friendship must be about something. Even if it were only in enthusiasm. Enthusiasm for dominoes or white mice. That's a great quote. Do you like white mice?
- [50:47]
B
Why? Why? Why white mice?
- [50:49]
A
It's a great quote. Those who have nothing can share nothing. Those who are going nowhere can have no fellow travelers. So you give really good ideas like a freezer meal night and serving in A workout class and supper club and sports, but also with your ministry, like with your IF gatherings, you know, they always talk about, like, don't pair work and friendship, but the. In the dude ranch, they're pairing work and friendship. And with the if gallery, you're doing life together. So can you talk about that piece that's missing, which is a lack of shared purpose?
- [51:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, we, we just don't understand how broken our system is that for so many centuries the world went around with surviving life together. You know, they had to have each other, and so they had a purpose. It was each other's mutual benefit. You know, when the hunters went and hunted, they were hunting for the whole village. They weren't just hunting for themselves, they were hunting for their families. They were hunting for. And so there was a lot of purpose and it was unselfish. You look at Band of Brothers, if you've ever seen that movie or any movie about war, like, you see this bond that happens between people that, you know, people will miss war because they had deeper friendship there. I've talked to, I talked to a Navy SEAL recently. He was interviewing me, but I turned it back on him and, and I said, do you ever miss. Miss it? And he like teared up and he said, I miss it every day. He's like, I will never have community like I did with those guys when we were at war together. Like, there's nothing like it. You can't replace it. And so we do have a deep longing for purpose. We have a deep, long shared purpose. And so, you know, you can create this any way anyhow, but it's a good starting point to just go, you know what, we're going to start praying for our kids schools, and we're going to walk in the blocks that go around our kids schools in a certain circles, and we're just going to pray, like for our kids school together. That's what we're going to do together. And just adding that little thing together gives some purpose and some meaning to it where it isn't just shallow, where it's not just about happy hour. You know, we're treating it all like happy hour. And that's fine. I'm. I'm big fan. Like, get together for two hours, you know, catch up, eat good food, drink, whatever. But I'm. This is not what God intended. Like, the way you were built was to live communally. And so to actually experience this the way it was meant to be experienced, you need a mission. Now those of you that are listening, that, that Have a relationship with God. You already have a mission. Like, you know, your mission is to help people know God is to give God away. And so, you know, my. My friends and I, like, we. We try to. One reason, you know, I joined this Bible study is just to be in community with my neighbors and friends. And that's one of my friends main mission field. Right. Is this neighborhood. A lot of my mission field is out in the world, but hers is here. And I was like, you know, I just want to be on her mission with her. She's always on mine. She'll travel with me. She comes to if gathering. She. She processes my books with me. I'm like, I just want to be on her mission field for a little while and, and meet the people she loves that don't know Jesus and that she plays tennis with. And. And so I think it just feels good to. To not be alone in our own little siloed missions, but to actually do it together. But that does. It sometimes takes some intentionality. All of this takes intentionality.
- [54:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. There's so many good ideas. And it really is remarkable, Jenny, that, you know, you say in this book, right in the intro, while I was writing a book about finding your people, I lost all of mine. And this book came out in 2022, and here is 2025. That's a pretty quick turnaround, isn't it?
- [54:34]
B
Yeah, well, you know, so actually to speak to that part of the book, I added that later after I'd finished the book I wrote that part in. Did I say that in the book? I think I did.
- [54:44]
A
It's on page xiv.
- [54:46]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I, They. They added that in for me, but I wanted to be real, that this is an ongoing thing. Right. But. But honestly, I. I felt close to them again just because I began to share with them what I was feeling. And. And my next book was called untangle your emotions. And I, I grew in that. Of just being able to say and name things quickly. And so. So I really do feel like that. That went away as I began just to voice it, because they. They had no idea. They were like, jenny, what are you even talking about? Like, we're here, we're good. We're. We're not going anywhere. So so much of this insecurity that we feel with each other goes away if we just say it out loud and we. We name it.
- [55:32]
A
So you have so many books and you have this if gathering and you have a podcast so people can get so much more encouragement. One of the books had something like 20, 000 reviews. I was like, I don't think I've ever talked to anybody that has a book with 20, 000 reviews. It's just incredible. So I've got find your people here and get out of your head. But like you said, there's so many more that people can find and get encouragement from. And the newest one that just came out, what to do with your whirly swirly thoughts, this is the one for kids. Gonna really help them. And I think that if you can help, help yourself, you know, with friendships, it's going to bleed over into your kids. Right like that. That's the village. You're building it for them. And then as I see here, you also have another book coming out next year.
- [56:13]
B
That's incredible. I write books. I'm a little content girl. I think in content, I wake up thinking about content. So yeah, this is, this is my calling, my life.
- [56:24]
A
You could pre order it now. The lie you don't know, you believe. How to find it, fight it and live free. So Jenny, what an honor. Such an honor to meet you.
- [56:33]
B
Great to meet you, Jenny.
- [56:34]
A
Yeah. All these incredible books that you've done and all this work that you're doing in the world. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:43]
B
Oh, my favorite memory from My childhood was 10 years old. My birthday party at Overbrook pool, my neighborhood pool. I will never forget it as long as I live. I remember every one of my girlfriends was sitting around the table and my neighbor boyfriend, that is, was my friend at the time. And my parents were sitting there and there's a picture of me and my hair's all wet and messy, but I'm blowing out a candle and I just remember thinking it was the best day of my entire life.
- [57:10]
A
Surrounded by people, surrounded by your friends. I love it. Jenny, thanks so much for being here.
- [57:14]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [57:18]
A
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