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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 623: The Conversations That Will Protect Your Kids Online | Jessica Joelle Alexander, Raising Digital Citizens
00:59:06
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A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy.
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B
Smart move.
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A
Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and one of my favorite guests is back today for a second time. Jessica Joelle Alexander. Welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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A
So we talked last time about your book. Okay. It's raising kids the Danish Way. Nope.
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B
Yeah. So it's the Danish way of parenting.
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A
Yes. Okay.
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B
All right.
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A
I watched that. The Danish Way of Parenting. The Danish Way of Parenting. And you have a new book that's out but not available everywhere yet. And we're going to be talking about that at the beginning of 2026. But can you tell people about the new book that out as well?
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B
Yes. So it's the Danish Way every day and yeah, that will be out in the US In January.
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A
Okay. So I, I love that book. We, we had so many incredible conversations about the first one. Then you're going to be coming on talk about the second one, just about how parents in, you know, they, they parent differently in different places. And you were able to see that firsthand. It's like one of the things I bring up a lot is how the fairy tales are not the same. You know, the fairy tales are not always these happy endings. And so we talked about all these different eye opening parenting practices that you might not realize exist. And they can inform the way that you parent if you live in a different place. So phenomenal book, highly recommend. But what you have out right now is, is incredible. It's incredible. I, you know, and I was a little skeptical, I have to be honest, because these are conversation cards with kids dealing with technology and that could really go south. I mean, they could be cheesy. We've got five kids, a bunch of them are teenagers and they love dinner table questions. They're constantly asking for din table questions. I run out of ideas. You know, I'm constantly searching for ideas. And so, you know, the true test is, is a 12 year old or 14 year old interested in these topics? And the answer is emphatically yes. So it's called the Essential Conversation Cards. For Life Online Raising digital citizens. We're going to be talking about these cards during this conversation, but can you give a little background about your journey to making these?
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B
Yes, so. So, I mean, I've been working in parenting for about 20 years now, and I've, you know, I've been very much focus focused on the Danish angle. Always voted as the happiest country. My husband is Danish. You know, I wrote this book, actually. Books, I should say. But then as my. As my daughter was getting to the age of, you know, phone age, let's say. Yeah, I felt really unprepared. And she was the last part. She was the last person in her class to have a phone. And, you know, I knew that I was missing, like, I mean, I knew at a certain point I couldn't put it off anymore. So I just. And I didn't know what they were teaching at school exactly. And I felt like we were missing a lot of discussions around, you know, just a lot of basics like critical thinking and safety and many things that I didn't know anything about. So I did what I usually do. I wanted to see what they were doing in Denmark. And I found that they had just an amazing digital citizenship program, which was very much about, like, how to be a good human.
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Yeah.
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In both worlds. So, like, their approach is very much that we have the digital world and we have the real world. And as for parents, it's very comfortable for us to teach our kids, you know, how to cross the road and how to be careful and how to be polite and how to be a good friend because we grew up in this world. So I think it's very. It's much easier for us. But, you know, we didn't grow up in the digital world. So I think a lot of us either avoid it or we think we're just going to ban it and put it off. And, and therefore we, you know, we're missing all of this, all of these opportunities to also instill character values and family values and all the things that we know that the stronger you're sort of attached with your kids and you have these family values also in the digital world, the more they're protected. And this is what the research showed across the board. Like, they all say, have conversations, have these discussions, but I, you know, we don't have a tool.
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A
That's right.
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We don't have a tool. So I was really missing this. Like, I didn't want to sit with a book and be and quiz her. You know, I wanted something playful that I could you know, in a casual way, over the dinner table, cover a lot of these things.
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Yeah.
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And so I made these, these cards based on this program, which, by the way, Denmark also scores as one of the highest for the. For digital well being. So it's not just the happiest country for 40 years. They also score in the highest for digital well being. So we made an agreement that we would. We would go through these cards and then once we finish them, we'd make an agreement and then she could get a phone. And it took us about a month. We didn't. You don't have to do all of them. Like, I, you know, it's, it's different for boys and girls. It's like, really, what's enough for your family to cover the values? And I felt so good about giving her the phone. I felt so much more prepared. I felt like to this day, knock on wood. I'm so happy with the relationship and the trust we built. And I didn't think much of it until my son was getting bigger and my daughter, he was. He had an iPad, you know, that he would use for various things, but, you know, not close to having a phone. And my daughter came to me one day and she said, mommy, Sebastian really needs to do the cards. And I was like, what? And then he, you know, when he was. Then he started really wanting to do them. And so, yeah, for me, that was just like such a sign. And so we put them into research and development and we created them and tested them with parents and psychologists and. And still to this day, for me, the best feedback comes from the kids.
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Yeah.
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Because they're so happy that finally their parents are showing some genuine interest and wanting to talk to them in a positive way also about their online life.
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Yeah.
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So that was really the basis for them.
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Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, you hear the phrase digital citizenship, you know, thrown around, but in my experience, there really nothing that guides you through that with your kids. And I think by going through the cards, it was so eye opening to me, Jessica, that there are so many new elements to life that did not exist when we were children. So many. So many. And I think we are ill equipped then to walk our kids through them. So I want to give a couple examples and we'll go dive deeper. But a couple examples. You know, some kid took a picture of a classmate in the bathroom. That's really funny, but pretty embarrassing. It is. Being sent around the class. It arrives to you. What do you do? You know, like a question like that you're like this wasn't a thing. This did not exist when we were growing up. And so you know, it was just, yeah, this eye opening, shocking reminder that we have to dig a little bit deeper and, and you've kind of gone down all the rabbit holes. I would be overwhelmed to figure out, well, what are all the topics that we need to even cover? And you are able to distill them down into these different categories. And, and the cards are interesting. There's true or false, there's different situation dilemmas, there's just open ended questions, there's multiple choice, all of it leads to discussion. And there's this man named Chris McKenna who has this company called Protect Young Eyes which is really focused on protecting on like online safety. And he's like, this is just a part of the picture. This is a part of parenting and you can't bury your head in the sand. But also you may have no idea how to address it because these are all the topics that were not a part of your own childhood. So that's why I found these are so valuable. Raising digital citizens their cards. So you just a little box, you put it at the table. Our kids constantly, this is what they want to do at dinner. Ask us in, you know, interested mom, ask us another interesting question. I'm like, I've run out of ideas. So now you have a whole box filled. So let's talk about the topics. The topics that you discuss in here are consent, safety, gaming, bullying, communication, critical thinking and well being. The questions will deal with digital life, but they'll also deal with regular life. Like what makes you feel good, you know, that type of a thing. Can you talk about the process of distilling that down? I would be awful at that. But you were able to kind of come up with these seven buckets of topics to discuss when you're considering or you're already on the path of kids in the digital world.
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B
Yeah, I mean there's a couple of things again, you know, I was very inspired by the Danish approach because here there's. I don't know if we talked about it last time but in the education here they have, it's kind of 50, 50 academics and character values and like what it means to be a good human. And so yeah, so I was blown away. So I sat in on classrooms and I was listening and I was like what? I was, I mean they were amazing. Like you've read some of the questions. I mean would never have even thought to ask some of these questions. They are brilliant. They're so simple. But they really open up into this, like, again, kind of human approach and things we, we would never think about them experiencing, actually. And I got, I really got goosebumps when you chose that last question about the, the picture getting passed around because we did these cards and actually, I mean, they really saved us some very difficult issues. So this exact thing ended up happening to my son. You know, actually it happened to him. He was the one that the picture got sent around, but he also knew what to do. Because, you know, the other thing that parents take for granted is, is not just like how they would handle these situations themselves. A lot of them are about, you know, what do you do if your friends are looking at content that you think is, you know, inappropriate? How do you handle that? You know, who are, who are. Like one of the most important questions I think that every parent should ask with their kids is who are your top three trusted adults.
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Yeah.
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That you would go to if something bad happens? I mean, it seems like something obvious, but so few parents actually talk to their kids about this. So they, they get into these situations where nobody's been talking really about these sort of character situations and then they don't know what to do and they sit alone with it. And, and like I said, I had two experiences with our son where I was so grateful we had done this process because he really knew what to do and who to go to and how to handle it. So, yeah, I mean, these, these topics are covering like the gamut of, I would say really what, again, what it is to be a kind, careful, decent human being in the digital world as well as the real world. And one of the things that I. One of the ways we describe it is it's a little helping kids learn how to. It's like empowering them so that they know how to protect themselves if you're not there. Yeah, so. So we're also working for legislation, we're also working for bands in schools. You know, I mean, I'm a huge believer in free play. And this is. I mean, I'm. I'm massive believer in also keeping screens away as much as possible. But we're also very realistic that at some point they are going to go into this world. And so the more, the more we have that trusting relationship and the more they know what to do and know how to handle themselves, the safer they're going to be long term.
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A
That's right. It uncovered for me, like, there's just so many holes of things I would have never thought about talking about. And you know, you use the phrase that what Seems obvious, but, you know, especially in this day and age, with all of this new technology, that we didn't grow up with these questions, you know, it may not be super obvious to know, well, we should talk about this or we should talk about that. So I just find that they are so valuable. I'd love to do a brief overview on the different topics so people can know what's in the box. And, and you starting young, you use this phrase at the. In the beginning, there's like a parent guide. And yes, there is a time in every parent's life when their child will begin to pressure them for more digital independence. And I thought that was a really good phrase. It is digital independence the kids will pressure. And, you know, these are things that you need to think about. You're going to learn some in the Danish way of parenting, but then even more in the new book that's coming out because the Danish way every day because you say that, you know, you really dove more into the technology part in that book. So I think people can be really excited for that to come to the United States. And if you're listening to this and you live other places, it might already be available for you. But let's talk about safety. Let's start there. So here's what I noticed. There's questions that relate directly to the Internet, you know, into, into smart technology, into devices and gaming and things like that. And then there are overarching questions that would just be good questions to have in general. You know, questions to answer in general for life. So an example would be nice. People on the Internet are always safe, true or false. So starting off with this online safety piece. Do you chat online with people you haven't met before? How do you know who the people are? How do you know if they're someone you can trust? Do adults sometimes pretend to be someone else so they can be friends with you online? Is everyone honest about who they say they are? I wouldn't have thought to bring those things up. You know, I, I would maybe have. We would have rules of like, you know, you, you can only text with people that you know. But to actually go down the rabbit hole of people use fake identities for different purposes and, and really explaining that to children, you know, at the appropriate age. And that can happen in a lot of contexts. So let's just kick it off there with, with safety and especially the fact that all of a sudden kids can rub shoulders with whoever.
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Yeah, yeah. Well, this is so. So what's interesting about this and one of the reasons also why I wanted to put it in cards like this is because we have, of course we're trying to warn our kids and we tell them to be care, we tell them what not to do and we warn them. But when you ask a question like that and you know that parent guide it, I really encourage people to read that first because there's a lot of good information. It's also based on the parent model of the Danish way of parenting. Play, authenticity, reframing, empathy, no automatums and togetherness and hygge. So it really, it's really helpful to read that to start out with because it explains to you also the approach to take with this is very respect based and it is coming from the standpoint that we don't know everything about technology. And you're going to be so shocked how much your kids have to teach you. You if you come at it with that kind of open, curious, not a know it all kind of approach. Kids open up, they love to talk about this. They will share things with you. If you, if you take, if you're, you know, if you take patience and you listen, I think parents will be shocked how much kids will share with you. And this is where that relationship is coming in. This is where you're creating that attachment, you're creating that trust that will carry them through when they will encounter weird stuff and what they do. So there's something called the generator effect. And this is something that basically means when I, when you ask a question that's kind of open ended like that and you allow kids time to actually think about the answer and come up with some ideas and share what they think. So it's being generated from them. We know scientifically that you remember information better, you're able to teach it, you're able to share it and so it sticks with them far more deeply and profoundly because they understand it and it's come from them rather than us. You know what I mean?
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Putting them just saying, here's your rule, you can only text with people that we already know.
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Yes, yes. It's far more powerful when they explain what they already know and they come up with some of the answers themselves. And one of the things I say to parents is like, like honestly, there's no right answer. There's a lot of answers and kids will come up. I mean we give ideas for a lot of the answers and we give hints and tips, but there's a lot of questions where let them tell you everything they can and then together As a family, you develop your values.
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Yeah.
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You know, it's like some of the questions are like, you know, what is. What is good text etiquette? And, like, you'd be surprised, I mean, how many kids have no idea. I mean, my son was sending texts with all capital letters, you know, a thousand exclamation points, or texting over and over and over and over and over again.
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Right, yeah.
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Because he didn't know any better.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So it's really fun to have them, like, come up to tell you what they know and what they think, and then you. You decide together, like, oh, well, do you think that this. This is okay? How do you think someone feels, you know, when they receive 25 texts within five minutes, you know?
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Right.
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So, yeah. So safety is basically covering, like, I'd say, really important stuff also, like information and passwords and again, many things that we think we've told them, but when it's asked in maybe this way, that gives them space.
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Yeah.
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You know, and. And I sort of liken it to, like, for example, this question about, who are your top three? Who. Who would you go to?
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Right.
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If something upsetting happened? It's almost like putting the emergency phone numbers on the refrigerator.
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Yeah.
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In their head.
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Yeah. It's letting them know, like, oh, this is a possibility. Because one of the things that you hear about that is most horrifying is that a child will become manipulated by an adult to send pictures or to do something online that they shouldn't have. And then because they're so scared that they're going to get in trouble, they take their lives. And sometimes people will tell stories of, like, how it happens. Within a couple. Couple hours, you know, there starts to be extortion. And they're saying, well, if you don't send me this amount of money, I'm going to let your parents know that you did this. And so it is planting the seed in their minds that there's other adults that you can go to for help and even just have the language, like, even to have the language of someone contacted me and is not who they said they were, and they may not know that that happens. And I. I would not have thought exactly, exactly to say, hey, you know, a lot of people, I don't know, a lot's probably, like, not the right phrasing, but there are people, and there may be a lot, I don't know who pose as others and. And they do things, you know, for. For evil purposes. And so the safety. But I want people to see if they can See it. Sometimes we put these on YouTube, but there's a, there's just a lot of questions here. These are just the ones for safety. You know, I don't know if you know how many there are, but there's, there's maybe 30ish questions here.
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B
200 cards in the box. And I tell parents, you do not have to do all the cards. It is not about doing all the cards. You can do 20 cards. And I mean, I had a mom tell me that one card. She had a three hour conversation. It was the best conversation she'd had with her teenage daughter.
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A
Oh, and isn't that like the best of life? You say, like make it cozy, have fun, like get comfortable, talk about. Kids want to talk. Our kids want to be asked questions that are meaningful and, and they want to talk about them. So over time you would, going through, and especially because kids are asking for digital independence. Pretty young. So you've got a lot of time, you've got a lot of time to go through the cards. And once again, in, in safety, what situations or experiences might be difficult to tell parents or other adults about and why. And that relates to online safety, but that just relates to anything. So the questions are going to enhance their all around well being. When I think back on my own childhood, I remember the freedom of the neighborhood. Hours spent riding bikes with friends until the streetlights came on. That's what childhood should feel like. Movement, laughter and connection. And that's exactly what our friends at Woombikes are helping families rediscover. Womb makes the lightest, smartest and safest bikes on the market. Perfectly designed for kids, not just shrunken down adult bikes. Every detail matters. The balance, the brakes, the handlebars, the way the frame fits their growing bodies. You don't just learn to ride with boom. You learn to love the ride. In our own family, we've seen that magic firsthand. Our daughter received a Womb Explore six in the that stunning magnetic blue. And from the moment we opened the box, we could feel the difference. The packaging was intuitive, the setup was simple. And within a short period of time, she was riding down the driveway with the biggest smile on her face. When kids have a womb bike, they want to be outside. And that's the heartbeat of what we do. Helping families reclaim time, connection and joy through real world play. So this holiday season, don't just give a gift. Give them adventure, give them confidence, give them outside. Check out all the holiday deals now@wooom.com that's W-O-O-M.com as the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. And for me, Quince delivers comfort that lasts. They have it all. 50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear. Denim that never goes out of style. Silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Perfect for gifting or let's be honest, upgrading your own wardrobe before those holiday photos. Honestly, Quince's Italian wool coats are at the top of my list because the cut feels designer. The quality rivals high end brands, but the price is about half because Quinn's works directly with ethical top tier factories and skips the middlemen. So you get luxury quality without the luxury markup. For me this season my go to has been my Quince cashmere because it is soft, classic and somehow it goes with everything. Oh, and my all black quince puffer jacket is always at the ready for those chilly mornings. So step into the holidays with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside free shipping, 365 day returns. Quince.com outside here's an example of something that I actually don't even know what it is. So to the point of there being sometimes major holes because of our own lack of technology during our own upbringing and then walking our kids through what is phishing? And phishing is spelled with ph.
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B
Oh my gosh. This is, this is, I mean, this is such an important one to know. You know, phishing is, is, you know, when people are basically trying to scam you with these fake emails. Right. Or fake messages. And there's so many good ones. And so actually I tell parents, these cards are such an education for both the parents and the kids.
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Yeah.
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B
And it's really fun to discover them together because this is about a conversation that continues through life. So like, next time you get a, you know, you talk about fishing together, you're, you might be surprised how much your child knows already. That's what's so interesting about this experience is like you'll ask a question that you think is so obvious and they don't know anything. Then you ask a question that you think is so difficult and they know everything. Yeah, it's, it's amazing. So it's, it's really, it's, it's also One of these opportunities where you create that trust and respect because you're listening to what they have to say too.
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Yeah.
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And I had one little boy tell me because I, I asked him if he had any advice for parents about doing the cards and he said maybe I wish that the parent would take the card and say, teach me.
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A
Right, sure. Because like I, I don't know that word fishing. And the kid may.
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B
And then think how good they feel when they explain that to you.
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A
Yes. Okay, so let me give one more example here of like a scenario. So some of them are scenarios. You receive a private message that states in the subject field that you have won a million dollars, simply click on the link in the message to access the money. You don't know the sender and the link looks a bit suspicious. What do you do? You know, and there's just these multiple choice, you know, what would you do? Just fantastic to facilitate conversation, but also really needed. I mean, they are an incredible tool. So that's one of the categories. One of the categories is safety, which matters so much, Jessica. Right. Because of these kids that have gotten themselves in unthinkable situations and don't know how to get out and the worst of the worst happens. So this is a form of protection for the child and for the family unit as a whole. So really going down this, this trail of safety things to talk about. I like the idea of, you know, by the time we get through the box, that's when we're going to do the phone contract, you know, or, or at least hitting the ones that you feel like in your family must be talked about. I think it's, it's a great path toward a little bit more digital independence, that phrase that you use. Okay, let's talk about another category. One is gaming. So some of the questions are just real innocuous, like conversation. Do you like to chat while you game? You know, who do you ch with? Games have all these baked in functions that are kind of, you know, like slot machines. And you know, what, what? Just, just great questions to kids. Why do you think games have age limits? But then there's some just about them managing their lives. So here's one. How do you feel when you spend hours outside playing in nature or with friends versus hours inside playing video games? And sort of similarly, what do you think a good balanced day looks like? How much can you play and manage everything when you still have homework and chores and other activities, you know, and, and sort of figuring out the screens? So I think these are really thought provoking questions for kids and how they spend their time and how they feel after spending large amounts of time on screens.
- [26:15]
B
So I just say interject here. So it was interesting. So my daughter, we didn't do gaming at all because she doesn't, she has not. She was not gaming whatsoever. So the gaming had nothing to like, we've totally unnecessary with her. With my son, I think we did gaming twice. But what was interesting for me to discover was some of those basic questions like, oh, I think there's even some like, what do you, you know, what do you like to play? And what I found was he was so happy to have me genuinely interested in his gaming world. And it really, it really struck me like how little I was showing any interest and I think how little? Many parents probably we. Because I mean, we, we do hear a lot of negativity. So we lose opportunities to also, you know, be positive. Like just like we ask them about their real life. Very seldom do we actually genuinely ask them about their online life. And, and when you do, and this is what I've seen across the board, the more you ask into their online life, even in just some of these simple questions, and you listen and you really listen to what they have to tell you, you will find that they trust you more, they talk to you more, they open up to you more. And this is what we ultimately want because, you know, when that thing happens and I can just give you an example of how much they've helped, helped us like a practical example with my son. Again, I don't know, I've had. But we had less issues with my daughter. But he. One night he was, he was gaming and he suddenly called me up. He was. And he was crying, he was shaking. He was absolutely terrified. Actually. I've never seen him so terrified. My first reaction was just like, you know, I also got a little bit scared, right? And I'm okay trying to stay calm. And I like what happened. And, and some he said some, you know, somebody had hacked him and they were threatening to steal all of his dad's money and they had his passport and they had all of his information and he was. And like, of course I got kind of scared. And my first reaction was to be like, did you give away your information? You know, but I didn't do that because that's in the parent guide as well. Like, be curious, not furious. So I was like, okay, let me really try to understand what's happened. But I did ask him, I said to, did you give this stuff away? And he's like, no, mommy, I know I'm not supposed to do that. And, you know, I don't know who it is. So we. We kind of backtracked and we went through it, and I. We sat down and I helped and looked, and this was all. Someone was really threatening him in this chat.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
And we worked through it, and it turns out it was someone in his class pranking him.
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A
Wow.
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B
And there's also. I don't know if you saw there's cards about pranks in the. In the box as well. What's the difference between a prank and a game? And this is also so. Really so important to talk about so they understand what a prank is, when it goes too far, when it's not funny. What are some basic rules of thumb about pranks? That it shouldn't hurt other people? Again, a lot of these things that maybe we would say in the real world totally easily, because, you know, it might. It might be something that's much more natural for us to talk about, but if we talk about pranks in the digital world, it wouldn't occur to us often to share some of this knowledge that we have, this wisdom that we have, you know, But. But thank goodness, like I said in that. That's just one of those examples where the first person he went to was his older sister, and she was number one on his top three trusted adults. Oh, so she was the one that told me to come up stairs. And I just think to myself, if we had had the relationship where I was totally judgmental about his online life, he wasn't allowed to do various things that he would be afraid to tell me and sit with that terror. I mean, he was terrified.
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Yeah, is.
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Is what? You know, what do you. What do we want? What is more dangerous?
- [30:25]
A
Yeah, it just shows the power of those seeds, of planting those seeds. So, you know, what. What do I do? You know, first of all, I know not to give the information. I know that those things sometimes happen, and I know who to go to. I mean, even as an adult. We had last year, last fall, so it's been about a year. We had this email come. I mean, it happens to adults. So I got an email about going on someone's podcast. Like it was a bigger show, and we knew the name, and it was like, you know, we got it from the admin to go on the podcast, and it, like, looked like any other email we've ever gotten to go on someone's podcast. And then I was like, well, this person does it through Facebook Live. And so in order to do that, we've got to make sure that we, you know, you have the right settings. So I had a phone call with someone who walked me through the settings of getting ready for this Facebook Live, and they. It was all a scam. They, like, hacked our account, and then it took however many months to, like, get it back. Wow. It was wild. So, you know, these things happen even to adults. Like, I mean, it just seemed so legitimate.
- [31:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:32]
A
So you could see how for a child, that would be absolutely terrifying.
- [31:35]
B
And, you know, it's funny because one of the things that I asked my son about later, I said, what is. What are these? He's also been a huge fan of the cards. And I said, what is one of the things that really stuck with you? He said it. It saved me so many times of getting scammed in his games. He said, it's. I, you know, I saw these things come up, and he's like, I was so close to clicking, and then I remembered and it was a scam. And I thought, you know, again, like, it's amazing. And. And once you've opened these up up, what's really great is that then you can share your experience with them, and that's how we keep the conversation going.
- [32:07]
A
Sure, sure. Absolutely. And then you're just. You're more aware as an adult as well, because one of the questions in here is, how do you pay for virtual goods in a game? Can you be scammed when selling and trading virtual goods? That is something that did not exist. Virtual goods did not exist 20 years ago. And so you. These are things you wouldn't think to talk about. I played video games for about two weeks because my parents got us a Nintendo. Then they sold it immediately, pretty much. I played Duck Hunt, and in Mario Brothers, it might have been called Super Mario Brothers. I can't remember at the time. That's what I played. And there were no virtual goods. This didn't exist. So this is the tool, this remarkable tool to be able to walk you through situations you don't even relate to you and you might not think of talking about. I want to hit one more in the gaming one. Would you know what to do if you weren't allowed or couldn't play video games? Name three things you like to do that are not gaming.
- [33:06]
B
Yes.
- [33:06]
A
It's such a good question.
- [33:08]
B
It is such a good question. And, And. And again, I tell parents, pause, relax, sit back, take the half an hour that it might take to come up with some of these ideas, but I swear it will be so Worth it.
- [33:22]
A
Yes.
- [33:22]
B
And, you know, one. Another thing we've seen across the board, which is so funny and unexpected. One of the questions I think you mentioned it was, you know, what. What is it? What does a good day look like for you? You know, what would be like a health. What's a healthy day for you? Like, how much screen time do you think is in a healthy day? And what's so funny is that we find that when parent. Parents have an idea of how much screen time is enough or is, you know, reasonable.
- [33:50]
A
Yeah, but.
- [33:51]
B
But we have found that when the child has to come up with their ideal day, very, very often they give themselves less than the parent.
- [33:59]
A
Yes. Because they know.
- [34:01]
B
And then how much more powerful is it that it comes from them?
- [34:04]
A
Yeah, they know. It makes them feel crummy. These questions are their seeds, and they start to grow. I talked to this woman, and I think about this a lot. Her name is Melanie Hempy, and she has this program called Screen Strong. And one of the things that stuck with me, she said kids should have three to five hobbies outside of screens. And so, you know, that has really stuck with me and really challenged me, because here and there, if there's an opportunity to try something new, you know, there's this craft store by us, and you can go paint pottery. Well, they also just got into. You can paint ceramics. They've also just gotten into pottery, and they got these, like, spinning. What is it called? Like a wheel where you actually spin the clay. I don't know. It might just be called a potter's wheel. I don't even know. There are so many things. I don't know, Jessica. Okay. Anyway. And then you can do these crafts with glass, and then they melt it down and it looks like a thing. And I'm more inclined. You know, our daughter had a birthday. She likes to cross stitch. I'm like, well, I'm getting an embroidery kit, too. Like, I'm more inclined to. And I. I just recently learned how to crochet, because that three to five hobbies thing is, in my mind, I'm more inclined to try other things because it's just there. And so if you have the conversation with a child of, what if video games weren't available? You know, what are three other hobbies that you have? Or what are three other things that you would like to do? It just starts to get your wheel spinning of. Maybe I should try that. Maybe I should see if I'm interested in such and such. It opens your world.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah. And it's also there's a lot of questions like in the well being section where there's a, it's a lot about asking them, you know, these kinds of questions about, you know, what a healthy day is. And yeah, you know, it's. And this is coming back to like the empowerment piece of this.
- [35:46]
A
Yes.
- [35:46]
B
And how like I just can't stress enough how much it means when it comes from them. And it's not us putting it on them or telling them what it is. It's genuinely getting onto this kind of more eye to eye level and hearing them out and, and it's just one of those things that, I mean we've really seen it, that when it comes from the child and they feel really heard and that wow. And you know, not also that they have something to teach you, but then wow. Like that they think about it themselves and it's not put upon them. They're just very, they're a lot more likely to follow through on it and be aware of it themselves.
- [36:24]
A
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it just, it gets your mind spinning and you just start thinking other things. You have deep thoughts about it.
- [36:34]
B
And I think also what is difficult about this for us as adults is, and I think this is something to be aware of is that it's very, it's uncomfortable for a lot of parents to accept that we don't know. This is very difficult for a lot of parents. It was difficult for me too.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah.
- [36:52]
B
And I think, I sometimes think the first step is just like, like it's, it's okay.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah.
- [36:58]
B
We don't have to know because what we do know is we know we have the wisdom of what it means to be a kind, careful, safe person.
- [37:06]
A
Right.
- [37:07]
B
And so this becomes very much like an exchange of knowledge. But I, but I kind of liken it to this. This sort of digital independence is almost a modern day rite of passage.
- [37:18]
A
Yeah.
- [37:19]
B
And so this is our operation. Opportunity to become an ally, not an enemy.
- [37:25]
A
Yes, absolutely. And, and it also, I think like it, it teaches a child to be thoughtful and, and that will help them for the rest of their life. You know, the more thoughtful you are. It's also fun. It's fun to have these discussions. They're lively, you know, people give their opinions. And so the whole thing pulls you out of the digital world into the real life, life world into the right side of your brain. Arthur Brooks talks about this. Dr. Arthur Brooks, he's got a book coming out next year where the whole premise is about like, we need more of the right side of our brain. The imaginative, the the thinking through the, you know, considering the conversation, the banter and how that really helps us to feel human. So then the medium here though, seems rather simple, is very powerful and very remarkable. And the questions are fantastic. So once again, they are called called Raising Digital Citizens. I'll put the link in the show notes so people can. But I think it's just Raising Digital Citizens dot com.
- [38:24]
B
That's right.
- [38:25]
A
Easy to find. It comes with a parent guide and it's like a little kit that you get. So there's 200 plus of these cards in, in these different topics. We're not going to get a chance to talk about all the topics today just because of time, but the topics are consent, which is a really big deal. What does consent mean? And there's a lot going around with, with photos that kids are sending to each other that you know that in five years they may not wish they would have sent. So, and even in that one, you talk about have your parents sometimes posted pictures of you without your consent? So there's, you know, there's thoughtful things there as parents, you know, what are we teaching our kids in, in that realm? So it's consent, bullying, safety, gaming, communication, well, being, critical thinking, incredible, incredible topics. So I just want to make sure that we, well, we're going to run out of time. I want to hit all of them, but we're going to hit a couple more. I would want to talk about communication.
- [39:22]
B
This is essentially also like digital empathy, I would say.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah, well, and also, once again, these are things that didn't exist before. What is the difference between an online friend and an, and an in real life friend? What are some reasons why a friend may not write you back back immediately or doesn't respond to a text? Do you feel like some friendships could fall apart if you're not connected all the time? Do you know others who feel this way? Are there times when it would not be okay to look at your phone or answer messages? You are in a room with other friends or classmates and you are showing one friend a funny video while others stand around. What is a good rule of thumb here? These are all situations that did not exist when we were growing up.
- [40:03]
B
And, and you know what? This, this just one of those examples you had. What is one of the reasons why a friend might not write you back back? You cannot believe how much this simple question can save a child like hours of, of grief because they actually don't know. They think they're being excluded. They think that they're being ignored. They think that their Friend doesn't like them. And, and it could be just they're having dinner, they're not allowed to be on the screen. You know, they. They're at basketball practice. There's, you know, again, it's something we take for granted that they just know. Or, and sometimes if you see two check marks, it doesn't mean that they have actually read. Doesn't mean that they're just, you know, they. Or they couldn't write you back. And so, like, what I have seen across the board with even a question like this, how many kids don't know.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah. And how many parents don't think to talk about it because we don't. Was part of our own upbringing.
- [40:58]
B
Yeah, exactly. And it's a funny one because I've even done this question with asking adults, like in companies and even it's funny to hear adults talking about it together, you know, remembering. It's. It's a good reminder for us sometimes because even adults can sometimes get in a huff of like, someone didn't write me back. And, you know.
- [41:16]
A
Yeah, no, it's totally true. I was talking. I had a friend and she was, you know, she was dating and she would be like, he says this or he didn't respond for three days or that. Now he says he's busy or, you know, and you're like, there's so much more nuance to relationship. You know, how are they interacting with your social media? Are they still friends with their ex girlfriend on? You know, there's so much more nuance to it. And it was so eye opening to me, Jessica, to think how much of this that we're actually not really discussing.
- [41:48]
B
That's it. That's it. You know, this movie adolescence, this adolescence, the series Adolescence. It's interesting because actually one of the big pieces, I feel like, like, you know, we talked about the manosphere and all these things that have, you know, they're in England anyway, they're training this in schools now because of the information the boys were sharing. But actually, for me, just one of the biggest missing pieces and was that boy being behind his bedroom door and his parents just assuming everything was okay because they didn't have really any conversations about his digital life.
- [42:19]
A
Right.
- [42:20]
B
They have conversations about his life. He was playing sports, he was doing all these other things that I can relate to so I can ask about it. It.
- [42:27]
A
Yes.
- [42:28]
B
And I just assumed that his whole other life, all those other hours he's spending in that other world that I don't know really anything about, must be fine.
- [42:37]
A
Yeah. You get the box of 200 questions. And you're like, oh, wait, there's a lot more things that I should be talking about that I'm not. So, so here's one. Let's just talk about this one in particular because it relates to kids and adults. A friend has misunderstood your text message or comment and is upset. What do you do? So let's, let's play that one out. Let's play that one out. So, you know, let's say we're at a lively dinner. I mean, you could do this with adults. It doesn't have to just be with your kids. But, you know, I, you know, I think that it, you know, first of all, it lays out the expectation that sometimes misunderstandings happen. It reminds you as a human to be really careful, I think, with your digital communications because none of the external eye contact and in those types of body language are there. Because don't they say like, body language is almost 90 or something of the communication? It's not the words. So you're really only getting 10%. So this is a laying a foundation for, for all of us to be extra careful and cautious. I think about our texting. Sometimes you text people on accident and it's the wrong person, you know, what do you do then? Maybe like, you know, it doesn't come across well. My husband just texted. He just texted. Literally just yesterday we finished a 2000 piece puzzle.
- [43:54]
B
Congratulations.
- [43:55]
A
Super exciting. Yes. It's like a big deal over here. I have one wall in this. It's like a pretty small room where I have this podcast, but I have one clear wall. And I was like, I should get some artwork. And then I was like, I think I'm going to hang all my puzzles on this wall. So anyway, we finished this puzzle and my husband took a picture of it and he, you know, we've got some teens, so he like, we did a little group thread and instead of putting my name, he put in his mom's. So then everyone's getting responses from Nana about the puzzle and they're like, why is texting us about our puzzle? He was like, oh, I just, you know, I put in the wrong person and it just happens. So all of these nuanced things that can happen. So let's say a friend has misunderstood your text message and, and is upset. What do you do?
- [44:36]
B
Yeah, you, you write them again. I'm thinking about what kids say sometimes, you know, I write them again, I text them again, and they don't.
- [44:44]
A
And maybe, maybe you call them, but probably they don't. Do that. Right.
- [44:48]
B
I mean, so this is so funny that you say that because actually what's interesting about this, the conversations about these questions is it again, ultimately what, what we're trying to do is we're trying to help them with our adult wisdom know how to work through these situations. And so for example, a question like that, very rarely will they come up with the thing about calling them.
- [45:09]
A
Right.
- [45:09]
B
But, but we can say that because.
- [45:11]
A
That'S not part of their culture.
- [45:12]
B
Exactly. But we can say, you know, you know what if you really want jump on a call. Because when you see, you know, when you hear tone, right. When you see facial expressions, everything changes.
- [45:24]
A
Right?
- [45:25]
B
I mean, because, and that is also, you know, one of the questions is talking about why it's so different without tone, without body language, without faith. And, and that also helps them understand how miscommunications happen. And this is again, this is like, this is the groundwork for empathy. And the more empathic we are, the better our relationships, the less conflicts we have.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah.
- [45:49]
B
The better we feel. But, but kids need, need help. It's a simple, it's a simple thing. But like something like that, you could have a 15, 20 minute question, half an hour, you know, maybe you have a story. I mean, I can give you example. I mean, even in, as an adult, I just was doing a work thing where the emails that I would get from this company, I found really off putting or I found them really like aggressive. They would kind of piss me off. But then I'm like, okay, no, I'm. Let's, I'm just gonna jump on a zoom, you know?
- [46:23]
A
Yeah.
- [46:23]
B
And then when I, when I got on a zoom with this woman, it was like, I adore her.
- [46:29]
A
You know, she just doesn't know.
- [46:31]
B
So she just has a weird tone in her email. And then, so the next time I got an email, I immediately, I also got like my. But then I'm like, I am getting on a call immediately. And then it's solved. I swear. It's like, it's like, it's so different when you have that communication. And that's something that's just, you can share a personal story. I had a mom say to me the other day, she's like, you know, I doom scroll. Like I, I feel addicted to my phone sometimes. How can I, you know, how can I in good faith have my teenage daughter, you know, And I'm like, tell her, share. Let them know we're human too. This is also how we build that empathy and respect and vulnerability that they Know that we're struggling.
- [47:14]
A
For sure. For sure. I like this question. If you're not available online all of the time, does it mean that you're not a good friend? Even the fact that that is out there, you know, that you. Because you're. You grew up in a different generation, a different culture than your children, you may not know. You know, I'm like, nobody cares if I don't text them back. Like, it might be 10 days or something. Like, no, nobody cares. They understand that I'm a mother and I'm, you know, I'm probably with my kids. Like, that is the assumption is that I'm just busy, not that I'm a jerk. But this is a different culture for these kids.
- [47:48]
B
And so many kids get very upset and, and many. That's what I'm saying. Something like a simple question like that to help them understand that if they. They're not able to text back or, or they're not online or available all the time. That doesn't. That's not what being a good friend is about.
- [48:04]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then that relates to the hobbies. Like, if gaming isn't available, do you have three things you love to do? Well, you know, maybe those. You're. Someone's doing the three things that they love to do and so their phone is put away or their family has rules about it. And so, yeah, friendship is not tied to online availability.
- [48:21]
B
If there is a concern for this, send out a message that you're unavailable. Yeah, send out a message that I'm not. I'm, you know, I, I'm. I have to be offline for these times or I have these three hobbies or, you know, I'm not allowed. You can. You can also communicate in advance, which can sometimes save.
- [48:38]
A
Yeah, that's a good idea. I talked to this man who runs this place called the Moab Adventure Center. It's in Moab, Utah, and runs. It might be the wrong thing. I can't remember what his exact title is, but you go and you go on these adventures as a family. And a lot of them, you can't use your phones because you're just out of. Of service area. So sometimes you'll be like five days without a phone. And he was saying about how growing up doing trips like that those were some of his best family experiences. Like, you're just like together. It's, you know, day and night for a couple days. And especially as phone started to factor into the equation, he was like, it's just all the more reason why it's so special. And so then he implemented a policy as his kids got into late teenage years and adult. I will pay for you to come on the family trip, but the rule is that you cannot be on your phone. Wow. So. So, you know, it's kind of emulating these river trips where they're there, it wasn't available. And he said it was incredibly impactful. Like, it changes the whole experience. But that's the time when you would say, I'm going to be out of pocket for eight days. You know, you let your group of friends know. And I think what that does too is that gives other people permission to say, oh, yeah, yeah.
- [49:50]
B
And I mean, so we've done some work with schools as well. And you can't believe also what a difference it makes when you get a classroom to talk about this together and to agree as a class. Can we agree that from, you know, from six onwards, nobody's available or from these hours, it like, it like, liberates them.
- [50:09]
A
Yes. Like how it used to be, school never followed you home, you were done at a certain time, and that just doesn't exist anymore. I'm sticking in this one kind of until we wrap it up, because I just think there's so many situations in here that parents can get a really good sense of what these cards are like. But once again, bullying is in here, which is important. Obviously, you want to be talking about this with your kids. Emotional pain works on the same brain pathways as physical pain. True or false? So it is true, you know, that these, the bullying, it is almost like physical pain. And what do you do if you've been that?
- [50:43]
B
And that, that section is very much. It's not just about cyberbullying. It's. It's, it's also about. It's, it's about belonging and how. And how this, how important it is to kids and what it feels like. And this exclusion and it, you know, so many kids don't know basic things. Like, you know, one of the questions I think is, what's a good rule of thumb about mean comments on social media?
- [51:04]
A
Yep.
- [51:05]
B
And there's a ton of answers for that. There's. And like I said, there's no right answer. It's the generator effect. There's a lot of, you know, you can say, don't write it at all. You know, treat others the way you want to be treated. There's a lot of ideas. I think the one we have in there as a. As a good rule of thumb is just don't ever, like a mean Comment. Because. Because when your friend reads that something that says you're fat or you're ugly or you're. You're mean or whatever, and they read it and they're like. And if you've liked it, it feels like they wrote it to you.
- [51:34]
A
That's right. It is true.
- [51:36]
B
And it's just a basic rule of thumb that we would never think to teach our kid.
- [51:41]
A
Absolutely. You would never. You would never think to teach it. So, yeah, bullying is in here. Critical thinking is in here. Talking a lot about AI and your passive digital footprint and algorithms and advertisements, you know, coming from social media influencers. Well, being is in here. So all of these categories. But I want to wrap it up here in the communication one just because there's a lot of scenarios that you give once again, that you wouldn't think to think through, because none of us went through them. This is the one I have on my notes and I read it earlier, but I think this is a really good one. You are in a room with other friends or classmates and you are showing one friend a funny video while others are standing around. What is a good rule of thumb here? I mean, I, I think a lot of us would never even consider that situation. Like, oh, what must everybody else feel like when I've pulled out my phone and everyone else is just standing there, there. And so kids might.
- [52:32]
B
And you're going. And you're going, oh, my God, look how funny this is. Oh, look how this. And you're just showing one person and.
- [52:38]
A
No one can see it because it's a small little thing the size of your hand, Right?
- [52:42]
B
Yeah.
- [52:42]
A
And then it becomes a thing. Well, let me see it. Let me see it. Then it's clicked off. So a kid might say, well, maybe I shouldn't even do that.
- [52:48]
B
Yeah. And this is, you know, this is one of those questions where it's a great reminder for the family.
- [52:53]
A
Yeah.
- [52:54]
B
You know, it made like. It made. Made me think differently. It's made us act differently in the family, even.
- [53:01]
A
Yeah.
- [53:01]
B
Because we can forget even. Even as adults sort of, you know, these kinds of, like, nice etiquette ways of being kind.
- [53:11]
A
Yeah. I'm gonna read a couple more of these. These are just. It is a remarkable, incredible tool for your family. You and your friend Chris go skateboarding. He does a really cool trick and you get a good picture of it. You share it on social media and tacky him. When Chris sees you shared the photo, he gets angry and asks why you shared it. You are confused because you think he looks cool. In the photo, what do you do? And then this one is an abc. You hurry to remove it. You leave it up. Chris is being silly. Or you remove the tag but leave the image. So this also ties in with consent.
- [53:42]
B
Yep. Yep. And it's. And it's one of those things that it's. It's a. Kids get into so many issues around stuff like this.
- [53:50]
A
Yes. We didn't have to deal with it.
- [53:54]
B
No, no. And. And again, like, the more they have some guidance from adults, the easier their life online is. We have so much about how bad it is and how terrible it is. And we are doing a lot to work on legislation and ban phones. And I think, again, wait as long as you possibly can.
- [54:15]
A
Yeah.
- [54:16]
B
And know that the digital world is not going away.
- [54:20]
A
Yeah.
- [54:20]
B
So you want to be a trusted ally for your kids so that they. They can be safe and they need some guidance.
- [54:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. And the guidance comes through conversation. Like, they might even have some own inner wisdom on it. They just haven't really thought it through. So. And this one, you know, you say it's always a good idea to ask before sharing. And this is an adult thing, too, that, you know. There's a friend I know, and she'll. She posts a lot of pictures. I've actually had two friends in my life that just, like they're somewhere, they take a ton of pictures, they post them all. And so then some people will say, I'm not going to an event with that person.
- [54:57]
B
Yeah.
- [54:57]
A
Because I don't want my picture posted everywhere. So there are things, really, for all of us to be thinking about. I'm gonna read two more. You just came home from school, and your friend Maya writes to ask if you can hang out after school tomorrow. You write that you'd rather do homework and send her a winky smiley emoji the next day. Maya is really mad at you because she misunderstood your answer. It wasn't at all what you meant. How can it be that Maya misunderstood your message? So we kind of talked about that one. You know that often that there's misunderstanding. And this one talks a lot about body language. And here's another one. Your sister just made a profile on Instagram. You can see that she shared a picture of her teacher, which is horrifying. Gosh, I was a teacher before any of this came out.
- [55:35]
B
But.
- [55:36]
A
But, yeah, you can get videotaped by your students and your picture puts up. You get a picture put up. She shared a picture of her teacher with a text. Text. I hate my teacher. She is so Boring. What do you do? You know, do you laugh about it? Do you talk with your sister? Do you stop following her on Instagram? Do you tell your parents? You know, I mean, oh, here's another one. You are about to start homework and can't figure out how to do the first exercise, so you message your friend for help. She doesn't answer right away, but just writes, maybe there is no emotion or emoji, just a period. Is your friend mad at you? These are really, really good.
- [56:09]
B
Again, you know, and again, I. I can't stress enough. Like, if. If we practice the pause and just wait for our kids to tell us, gosh, you're gonna learn so much.
- [56:20]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [56:22]
B
It's. It's like, it's. Wow. You learn so much about their online world and. And it just opens up for a future where, like, I mean, as my daughter got older and things developed and apps changed and we updated the agreement as she got older, but I felt, compared to other parents, I felt so much more let in, and I felt so much more trusted.
- [56:49]
A
Yeah. It should be something that's a together thing, and instead, it's often not. The questions make it a together thing.
- [56:57]
B
It is. And it's. And like, you have five kids, so, I mean, it's really great with siblings things.
- [57:02]
A
Yeah.
- [57:03]
B
And friends, because it's. It's nice to hear what they can teach each other.
- [57:07]
A
Yeah. It is a remarkable tool. Like I said, I was skeptical because I'm like, you know, so many questions that we ask kids and just ask each other are cheesy. And I, first of all, was blown away at how the depth of different childhood experiences that we're having, then our, you know, the differences are really major, massive. It's. Again, it's. It's a whole different world for them. And so it's a. It's a reminder that there's a lot more to talk about them we probably are talking about. And it's a guide to do it. And it's interesting, and I just. I cannot recommend it more highly. It is phenomenal. They are called Raising Digital Citizens. You can go to raising digital citizens.com and get the package and, you know, you could do it with your group. What. You know, whatever you got, you know, a group of friends. There's a lot of ways to use it, and I just. I love them. The. And then the books are fantastic. Over 3200 reviews on the Danish way of parenting. And the new one that may be a. Available where you're at or not. If it's not. It's coming soon. It's called the Danish Way. Every day a practical guide. A practical age by age guide to raising confident, capable kids like the happiest people. Am I reading that right? Let me pull it up.
- [58:12]
B
I don't know about you people in.
- [58:13]
A
The world like the happiest people in the world.
- [58:15]
B
And remember, the cards are based on the Danish way of parenting. So the parent guide is also following the same. You know, I, I didn't invent all this wisdom, to be honest. So I'm just sharing with the world. I'm just sharing with the world how much it helped our family.
- [58:29]
A
And you're creating the tools that families need.
- [58:32]
B
Be building the bridge.
- [58:34]
A
That's right. As we navigate an ever changing technological landscape, the foundations of being a good digital citizen and just a good citizen in general remain the same. Help bridge the knowledge gap together with your child in a fun, hands on way. That's absolutely what it is. Jessica. Thanks for this incredible tool and I can't wait to talk to you again.
- [58:50]
B
I'll speak to you soon. Have a great one.
- [58:52]
A
All right, bye bye, bye.
- [58:56]
B
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited.
- [59:05]
A
To be clear, that's half the price.
- [59:07]
B
Not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.
- [59:12]
A
So that means a half day. Yeah.
- [59:16]
B
Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed flow after 35 gigabytes of network busy taxes and fees extra cement Mobile com.