← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 627: Children Are a Reward Not a Regret| Abbie Halberstadt, You Bet Your Stretch Marks
00:59:34
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A
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These deals are epic. Without a doubt, the who's are all ready. But are you? Walmart Black Friday deals await. Who Knew? Welcome to 1000 Hours Outside. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and so honored. Abby Halberstad is back. Welcome, Abby.
- [00:38]
B
Thanks for having me, Jenny. I'm so glad to be here.
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A
You have written a trilogy, which is so exciting. When I think about trilogies, I think about, like, the Lord of the Rings. Is that a trilogy?
- [00:51]
B
Yeah, I think it is. I feel like it is. I mean, people throw the hobbit in there, right?
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A
But yeah, anyway, I just think that trilogies are remarkable. And so you've written a trilogy. And to round it out, the final book is. You bet your stretch marks. Finding beauty and worth in the ways motherhood marks our bodies and souls. Did you ever imagine that you would write a trilogy?
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B
No, not at all. In fact, as a young mom of a whole lot of kids, because I had five by age 29, five, six and under. And then I was actually talking to my husband the other day, and I was like, what was our, like, largest number of children under a certain amount of years? You know, like. And I realized with our second kind of half of our kids, we had at one point, seven kids eight and under, with two sets of twins in there. Now, that had never occurred to me before because you just kind of live your life. You don't go around thinking, like, how many kids under this age do I have? But that was kind of an aha moment of like, yeah, I was. I was pretty busy. I still am, but was really, really busy with lots of small children. And I had three older kids in addition to those. Seven, eight and under. And no, no. I wanted to write since I was six, seven years old. If you had asked me at seven years old what I wanted to be, I had all kinds of. I always joke, I was all the a words. Astronaut, architect, artist, author. And the author is the one that stuck. But at a certain point, it kind of feels like this isn't a realistic dream. This is something that you're not called to because you're clearly called, in my case, to be having all these Babies, and they're my primary focus. And so when it came along, so 6ish years ago, five years, I think my publisher contacted me six years ago that I was going to get to write a book for real. I was like, you've got to be kidding me, Lord. Like, this is incredible. But I really was going to be happy if I got to write one. And my mom bought it. Like, that was. Those were my standards. Like a real book with my real name on it. And, man, it's. It's such an example of this trilogy of the Lord doing abundantly, more than I could ever ask or imagine.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
Far beyond anything I ever dared to dream.
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A
Yeah. The three bucks are called M is for Mama. Hard is not the same as bad. And this new one is. You bet your stretch marks. And they're beautiful. They're. They're stunning books, which is, like a really nice thing for. For moms and for women. You know, you have this gorgeous book. It's gorgeous inside and out. There's illustrations. I mean, look at this front cover. This is so pretty. And they're all like that. And I love it when books match and you can put them on your shelf and they're all gonna look good together. So that's just a little bonus. I have this friend that I haven't seen in a little bit, but we've done a lot together when our kids are smaller. And she was a part of this Facebook group called Mommies. And it was an acrony, and it's different. Something like mothers of many young siblings. That would make sense, right? Mommies. And the criteria to be in the group was if you had four kids eight and under.
- [03:41]
B
Oh, wow. Yeah.
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A
And so then I tried to figure out at one point, like, I was like, we had four kids eight and under for a. A fairly long stretch. Not as long as yours, but, you know, if you were to try and figure out how many years in a row did you have four kids eight and under, you may still have four kids eaten under.
- [03:58]
B
I do. Yep. I do. You're still in it.
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A
You're still in it.
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B
Yeah. I don't think I've ever. Not. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. So starting from whatever year that your fourth was born until now and still to go, because, you know, those are the ages where they, you know, you think that by 6, 7, 8, they're going to be helpful, and they are in a. In a way, you know, they can't. But they're still not totally. Like, you may still have to be helping them tie their shoes and they may still be crying because you put cheese on their cheeseburger and they didn't want the cheese. You know, they're still a little emotionally unstable. So, um, I. That was actually really helpful for me because I remember thinking, this will not be quite as hard as it is right now. Forever. And that's part of the point of your book. Part of the point of your book is that we have stopped thinking long term and we're only thinking short term about kids. So this is a book that's pro motherhood and pro children in a society that is increasingly child averse. So. So can you talk about what has changed? I mean, the statistics are pretty shocking. You had a statistic in here. In 2023, the Pew Research released a report showing that A record breaking 47% of adults younger than 50 say they are unlikely to ever choose to have children. 47% of adults younger than 50 say they are unlikely to ever choose to have children. That's basically half.
- [05:15]
B
Yep. Yeah, we are looking at half of the population of the western world that they are interviewing who are saying basically this is not even on my radar as a priority. And I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to this. I heard another study recently that was interviewing conservative single men. I believe they were single. They could have been married, but I think they were single. Conservative single women, liberal single men and liberal single women. And for conservative men, having a family was their top priority, which was interesting for conservative women. And I find this even more interesting. And I don't know how they were defining conservative. Like I don't know what all the parameters that they used for. I'm sure it was self identifying. For conservative women it was priority number six. Yeah, I know.
- [06:06]
A
What are five things that could be more important than having a family? Well, I can't even think of five.
- [06:11]
B
I love you, Jenny. I love you.
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A
I know people would say work. That's the only one I could think of that someone would say. But that's probably travel the way they look.
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B
Personal care. Yes, yes. Like self expression, personal care, the way they look. Probably some sort of hobbies or self actualizing. I haven't seen the actual thing.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah. Okay, so maybe friends. That's five friends, hobbies. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's shocking.
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B
Well, and if you flipped over to the liberal side, I don't know that it's super surprising that it went much lower. So for, for liberal men, I think it was like, oh, maybe number eight as a priority. I don't think I have that number in My head. But I know that the number for liberal women of this particular study was number 12 out of 13 factors. So I think feminism is a huge contribution. You've essentially said that unless you can do something that produces an income or if you are doing something, namely having children that prevents you from an equal outcome with males in the working place, in the workplace, then it's not going to be a top priority because that kind of equal outcome is the goal, or at least it's one of the goals. And it's interesting to see how much the feminist mindset though apparently has crept into a conservative, a self proclaiming conservative mindset. Because as you say, when you're talking from a conservative perspective, usually it's more traditional values. Again, we have, we would have to define what those were. But you know, God, family, country, are a lot of those things that go along with that. And if those are true, then the fact that there are five above, which very likely, if they're similar to the ones that we suggested, are more me focused.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
Kind of flips the narrative on its head of God, family, country, in that order. So yeah, it's, it's concerning. It is sad because I have never seen a group of women then more than the really young ones that are coming up to childbearing age who are more terrified of the thought of physically having a child, mentally having to be prepared to take care of that child, emotionally being the emotional thermostat in a home where a child is present. I think broken homes contribute to this a lot. A lack of moral stability, a, a birth control culture that says if you just don't want to, you don't have to. Here, take this pill or insert this device. We have done a lot of things that are viewed as progress which have instead produced a regression in population. For one, in the Western world, we're not even replacing ourselves and our workforce is actually at risk. China for so many years restricted their citizens to one child, or possibly two if it was a girl, first per household. And now they're trying to incentivize their citizenry to have children. And what they have discovered is that they are struggling to convince anyone to have more than one because they have now been conditioned that one and done is easier and it makes their lives simpler and more self focused. And so they actually don't want more children. Now in the past they did and were restricted from having it and now they can't even pay them enough to have more children in some cases because it's just too much work in their Mind.
- [09:44]
A
Wow. It's so interesting to think about where we're at. I'm talking later today to a man named Arthur Brooks, who talks a lot about happiness, and he has a new book coming out about, like, meaning and how young people are really struggling to find their meaning.
- [09:56]
B
Yeah.
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A
And so when you take. When you take all those 13 things, which is like, job and travel and, you know.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Those can bring you some meaning. Also, they can be really difficult, too, you know, and. And some things you can't do forever, like certain hobbies or. Or whatever. And you could see, though, how, like, in Ecclesiastes didn't talk about meaninglessness. The. You know, so many of the things you go for in life, once you get them, you're just kind of like, oh, this wasn't what I thought. Yeah, but children are never that. Never. And the problem is, is that sometimes you make decisions that are lifelong and you can't go back and fix it because. Or change it. Fixes. Maybe the wrong word. But, like, the older that you get, sometimes it's a little more tricky to get pregnant. So you may make a decision. At 23, 25, I'm gonna freeze my eggs. I'm gonna do. Which, I mean, that's a whole other.
- [10:46]
B
That's a whole other can of worms. Yeah.
- [10:48]
A
That could be a whole other podcast. But I've had big conversations about. Is. Is that a frozen soul? Like, I mean, there's a lot to think about there, but. But there's this cultural force, and I guess for me, I'm passionate about it because I got a cultural message, and I've talked about this before on the show. I got a cultural message from somewhere, and I grew up in the church, and it was floating in the ether to wait to have kids. And it's one of my biggest regrets. And the wait time was five years. It was like, everybody should wait five years. I don't know where it came from, Abby, but, like, it was just in my mind. And so I'm passionate about at least exposing people to other ideas.
- [11:28]
B
Right.
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A
And so this is a new one, and I'm not really in it. Like, when I was reading this book, I was more shocked than I was expecting at how much things have changed, because I'm kind of in. You know, we're all kind of in a little bit of a bubble. I'm like, I'm with a bunch of other moms who have a lot of kids, and we're all homeschooling, and we love it, and it's wonderful. And like, yesterday, we got a banjo, and we got a banjo, and our daughter, like, picked up the banjo and started singing Amazing Grace, and she's never played the banjo. And I was like, this is a pinnacle moment of my life.
- [12:01]
B
Yeah. Core, core memory.
- [12:03]
A
And then the other girl goes and gets a guitar, and they're playing, and then on Sunday, their friends are getting baptized. And so, like, we got the banjo yesterday. The mom was like, can they come play banjo at the baptism? You know, and you're like, this. Like, this is it.
- [12:16]
B
Like, this is where it's at.
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A
Nothing better. So it's always. It's confusing to me when these messages are out there, because to me, they make no sense. So let's. Let's dispel the struggling moms. Okay. Like, it is hard. Yeah, some. But not sometimes.
- [12:30]
B
Way more than. No, not all the time. And although there is going to be the mom listening, that's like, listen, for me, it is all the time. Yeah. I genuinely feel like you said you grew up in the church and that you encountered this, you know, message floating in the ether. I love putting it that way, how you put it, because it's like, yeah, where did we hear that? I'll tell you where I heard it, Jenny. I heard it lots of places, but I did not hear it from my parent. Parents. Thank the Lord they were very, very open to children. The Lord literally gave them two, even though they would have happily had 10. That's how much my mom was able to have with her body working the way that it did. That could have been my story, too. But I'll tell you very specifically where we. My husband and I heard this. And that is from our Marri counselors who were assigned to us by our Christian Evangelical Church, who said their number one piece of advice was to not have children. Vote too soon.
- [13:21]
A
It's the worst. It's the worst. That makes me. I mean, I. I feel like I think I'm supposed to have two more kids. I've always felt like that I was supposed to have two more on the front end. The one that's the oldest actually isn't supposed to be the oldest. And. And that was the cultural message. And I'm like, I, like in this book, how you like. Okay, let's go back to scripture. What does scripture say? It says children are a reward. You know, they're a heritage from the Lord. Is that what it says? They're a blessing. I'm saying it all wrong, but anyway.
- [13:49]
B
No, you're good. Psalm 127. Go read Psalm 127. You got it.
- [13:52]
A
I want to read it out loud because it's like the fruit of the room is a reward. That's what it says, right? The exact words. I'm actually looking it up because that's not. It doesn't say, then who wants to wait five years for a reward?
- [14:05]
B
Right.
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A
I'm like, abby, Abby, I've got a really good reward for you. Would children. Oh, I just said it right. Children are heritage from the Lord, offspring, a reward from him. And then, you know, it says, like, arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one's youth. In your youth.
- [14:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
So no one would be like, you know, I'll have my reward in five years.
- [14:29]
B
Yeah. It's true. If we were to present children to prospective young parents, to people who are getting married, if we were not as. As something to be looking forward to, as a joy to be like, anticipated, as a privilege and a responsibility that is so weighty, but in the best possible way. And if we were to stop divorcing sex from an intimacy from biology, where we're saying, you know what? We're going to dissect this out. And keep in mind, this whole mindset, while present to some extent throughout the history of mankind, has never been like it is now. This idea of, when do we start having kids? When should I start planning for this? Or the magic question that everybody asks, how do I know when I should be done? I get that question in my DMs almost every single day. How do you know when you're done? Well, I'll give you my personal answer. As someone who has 10 children in 14 years, that was our childbearing years up to this point. And my answer from the Lord so far is, at this point, you're done because you've had three miscarriages since you had your second set of twins. That has largely been the answer. Biology, the way the Lord has made us to work. As we age, we release fewer eggs because we have fewer eggs. Our fertility wa. And so should we have another child, we would welcome him or her with open arms. Or them. We have two sets of twins. Who knows? But at this point, the answer has not been yes. And so that's how I know my answer so far. And people do not like to live in the tension of I don't know for sure. We want to clench our fists and we want to build our barns and fill them with exactly what we're going to fill them with on the exact date that we planned for. That is the American dream. Have your boy and your girl and get your career and have your two car garage or three car garage and plan your yearly or, or twice yearly vacation and just don't do anything too crazy to upset the boat, to rock the boat, to buck the cultural norm. But the funny thing is the cultural norm for centuries and millennia has been children at the beginning of marriage because you're having sex, therefore there's a possibility you're having children. And I know for some people that is not how it lines up. Like I said, my mom, two years, four kids apart was what the Lord gave her in the course of 25, 30 years of fertility, that's what she got. And so it's that whole the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. But we don't want that. We want, I decide, I plan. And if the Lord doesn't deliver when I decided, cursed be the name of the Lord. Or we think in terms of like, you know, having 10 kids in 14 years. You better believe my mind was like, man, how many is this going to be? I was 37 when I had my last, which are 5 year old twins. Now I could have 15 kids by 45, but little did I know my body wasn't going to cooperate after 10 years of 14 years of cooperating perfectly. You know, we just don't know and we're not in control and boy do we want to be.
- [17:50]
A
Yeah, like this is what a lot of it boils down to is control. You know, that we want to have the one kid in China because we can control and now we think that's better or we, you know, we want to keep our priorities and kids are number six. So if I can't do my hobbies and my friends and my whatever the other things are, I think the problem with that is that leads to a lot of anxiety because we never are in control. And so if you think you are, if, if, even if you're able to live that way for, you know, a period of time, I think at some point you're going to be like really shocked because you're not. And things are going to happen that are out of your control and I think you're not maybe going to be able to deal with them that well. When I think back on my own childhood, I remember the freedom of the neighborhood. Hours spent riding bikes with friends until the streetlights came on. That's what childhood should feel like. Movement, laughter and connection. 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But the price is about half because Quince works directly with ethical top tier factories and skips the middlemen. So you get luxury quality without the luxury markup. For me this season my go to has been my Quince cashmere because it is soft, classic and somehow it goes with everything. Oh and my all black quince puffer jacket is always at the ready for those chilly mornings. So step into the holidays with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside free shipping 365 day returns quince.com outside I love that like things are a little more chaotic than I would like. You know, I was hoping to like really be a checkbox mom and I'm not a checkbox mom. But I have grown. So this is one of the things that you talk about too is that I guess this would be a missing piece of the puzzle is life I think is more fun when you grow. And so one of the benefits of children and not that, not that I even think children have to have benefits, but there are benefits. I don't know if that's true or not. I guess I've never really thought about that. I don't feel like I, I hate that. I guess I kind of hate that. I hate that it has to be like well what are the benefits?
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B
You know, like what that is what people do, the pro con people are doing.
- [22:35]
A
Right. But I just want to say, I guess one of the things that is to supposed surprising to me an unexpected benefit is that I have grown as.
- [22:42]
B
A person 100% like preach. Clap it slow, clap it from the back. Because if I did not have the blessings, the 10 blessings that God gave me, I say this very clearly in the book. I said it is actually a gift to recognize you're not as patient and kind and calm as you thought you were. Why? Because unless you encounter opportunities and children are daily opportunities to recognize just how impatient and rage filled and that's another point that I make is that we tend to say things like, children make me this, my kids make me crazy, my. And one thing I say in there is that another person, including our children, cannot make us anything that wasn't already inside of us. I think it's Paul Tripp that gives this, this illustration where he basically says, you have a water bottle, the cap is off, somebody bumps in, you spill your water. Why did you spill water? And you say, well, because someone bumped into me. And it's like, no, no. Why'd you spill water instead of coke or bourbon or tea? You know, because it was already in the bottle. That's what came out. Because when you get jostled inevitably by life, listen, that's the other thing is that people are sometimes trying to avoid some level of conflict, responsibility, or, or just like struggle by avoiding children. In some cases, it's just like, listen, I'm not cut out for that. My life is just going to be easier. That's just not my vibe. I'm not motherly. Whatever all the things are, you're going to encounter struggle and conflict elsewhere. And very likely, yes, you will grow from that as well if you don't run from it constantly. But very likely that conflict and struggle and the result of it will not be as rewarding as it would be if you were investing day in and day out in an eternal soul. One of the points I make in the book is that all of these things, these hobbies, these accomplishments, these accolades, these worldly possessions that we amass, we can't take a single one of them with us when we die.
- [24:44]
A
That's right.
- [24:46]
B
And there is at least a chance that we can be in heaven forever with eternal souls that we got to preach the gospel to. I can't guarantee an outcome for my child's salvation. I am not God, but I can plant seeds. And yes, of course we can plant seeds in other people's lives as well. But what an opportunity to have a built in mission field in home to preach the gospel not only to yourself as you are reminded how desperately you need Jesus every day because your kids are doing kid things and it's driving you bonkers. But to invest in them knowing that it's an eternal investment.
- [25:21]
A
There's a lot here and I just, like I said, I just, I hope to be the counterpoint. Like I just was able to interview this couple named the Nickerson. The husband is a clean comedian and they got married at 19 and 20 and they had kids right away. And, and I'm like, look, you know, I, I at least because I didn't get the other side. I'm like, I want to at least help present that there is, there is another way. And they're like, it was so fun to get married at 19 and 20. Are you kidding me? Like, we have a best time. We did all these games. We learned everything together. We, you know, and we have this really exciting thing. And it's like, it's the same thing with children. It's like, I mean, the. You told the story in years about basketball. This. That's the thing though, that someone. I think this is part of the problem, Abby. It's like someone you don't know what you don't know and you can't think like 16 years down the road or 17 years down the road or 12 years down the road, which feels really far. And it is far. There are going to be these. And they're going to happen when they're little too. Right. Like they're going to be toddlers and they're going to have all these really cute things they do and they're going to smile at you. God sprinkles them all the way through development.
- [26:27]
B
100.
- [26:27]
A
It becomes these really monumental things that are toward the end that you could have never anticipated. And when they come, you can't imagine like not having chosen that. So one of the things, I guess one of the things is just sort of like this lack of it. It appears to be lack of long term perspective. Yeah. And like you said, some people are going to have hard parenting years all the way through.
- [26:51]
B
Yeah, it's true. And some people really were not set up well, my parents were examples of that. But instead of saying I was not parented well, therefore I cannot parent well, they said, I want something different for my kids. And they are not perfect parents. Because newsflash, none of us are. We all are going to struggle in some way. And I really think that that's a good thing for our kids. If our kids have perfect parents and then they turn out not to be perfect, shockingly, they're going to feel like they failed in some way, when in fact all of sin and fallen short of the glory of God. We are all there. But my parents essentially said, we want to be the chain breakers, we want to be the hinge on which the door of change turns. And our children are going to have better by the grace of God as we just seek hard after him and let him bring the harvest as we plant some seeds, however imperfectly. And so I'm always encouraging people who are saying, I'm Struggling so much because my mom wasn't your mom. Because my mom is wonderful. My mom isn't your mom. I didn't have that. And I want to say to them, my mom didn't have that. And the Lord was still enough, and he sustained her. And he. I say all the time, the Lord does not call the equipped. He equips those. He calls with what they need. Sometimes in the exact moment that they need it, and not one second sooner.
- [28:04]
A
There's this woman, Jessica Smart, and she had a book that came out this year called Come On Home. And she talked about her grandma. It was a beautiful book. And her grandma. And she said her grandma, like her, the grandpa, was just, I mean, maybe kind of a jerk. I. Or at least out of the picture to a degree. They didn't have hardly any money. She's making, like, cow tongue soup and, you know, trying to manage her children. And Jessica was like, look, it doesn't have to be perfect. Like, you know, this woman has left an amazing legacy. She was not well supported, and yet she's got, you know, these grandkids that sing her praises. And I think it's long term. Yeah, that's the thing. So one of the things that you said in this book, you bet your stretch marks, which I. I thought was really thought provoking and something I have. I actually have not thought about this, Abby. So you're talking. You know, part of the thing is, like, I mean, I lost my figure. Now you've done a better job than I have because you've, like, done your exercise. And I'm like, that's something I regret. But also, my kids were so clingy, and I tried so hard. I took them to every exercise class. I was always getting called back. They wouldn't go in the nursery. I tried the stroller exercise class. They won't stay in the stroller. And in fact, I finally stopped. I've told this story maybe once where I was like, you know, so here and there I would try and pick it back up, but they were crawling on me. And one time I was. Was doing, like, an exercise video in my living room, and I couldn't find my weights because it had been a while. So I'm like, but I'm gonna try. Start again. So I was using cans of soup and as weights, and one of my kids came up right behind me, and I hit her in the face.
- [29:31]
B
Oh, no.
- [29:32]
A
With the can of soup.
- [29:33]
B
That's. That's so classic.
- [29:34]
A
Because they're so, like, they're clingy and I just. I don't know, I'm like, I tried so many times and nothing really seemed to work. And so, like, you know, you lose your figure. But what you said in the book. And not everybody does. See, that's the thing. Not everybody does. And I actually think in this day and age, there's a lot of good information out there for moms. But I did. And you say this is the thing, you're gonna lose your figure anyway. Yeah. Like, you're not always gonna look like some young, chipper teen forever. Like, you're not even. People that have good figures when they're old, they still look old.
- [30:07]
B
Right? Exactly. There's. There's this comedian that I follow that has the driest delivery ever on Instagram. It's Dustin Anderson is his name. And then he's like, list all folks that are getting, like, the stuff done to you. He said it's great. You know, whatever. You can do that. I just need you to know that when you're 60, no one's going to think you're 20. You can't do that again. You already did that. Like, that part's done.
- [30:31]
A
You're gonna be.
- [30:32]
B
You're gonna be hot because you have all this stuff done to you, which that's debatable, but you're gonna look maybe better than other six year olds, but you're still going to look 60. And that is the point. Yes. And I. I list a whole thing of ways that my body has changed. I just had this whole episode, Jenny, where I got varicose vein surgery because I've had varicose veins for the last 13 years. They started popping out on my right leg with my first set of twins with a vengeance. Hurt like the dickens, you know, are just really unpleasant, unattractive. They also don't function super well. And in old age, they get worse. You kind of want to take care of them so that you don't end up with like, like, really bad problems later on. My dad's had some of those. And so I got this varicose vein surgery done, and I kid you not. This was on August 22nd of this year, and my book came out. You bet your stretch marks came out. So it's. It's all about. It's actually, people are like, oh, it's a body image book. I'm like, no, no, it's not. It's more about the way that motherhood and parenting metaphorically stretches you. But part of that includes the physical. Of course it does. There's a lot of physical in there. And so I get this surgery done on August 22. My book is coming out on September 2, right? Five days later, I have this weird red spot on my leg. I'm post op, I'm wearing compression stockings, I'm barely walking. And I remember I was coming back from Ali Beth Stuckey's podcast in Dallas. I'm driving home, talking to my husband who's out of town, and I'm like, I have a spot on my leg. It's kind of red and angry, a little bit hard. And he's like, well, you should probably go in and get it checked out. I am the opposite of going and get it checked out. I'm like, nope, not doing it. So I kept texting friends, like, pictures, and was like, not just random friends, medical friends. I wasn't just texting, you know, my aunt that knows nothing about medicine. But I'm like, okay, you're. You're a anesthesiologist, you're a nurse, you're this. And I was praying, lord, please give me wisdom about this, because I really don't want to go in. I have 10 kids at home. My husband's gone. Like, this is bad timing. And every answer came back, it doesn't look too bad, but you might want to get it checked. So about the seventh one, I was like, okay, this is the wisdom. Fine, fine. So I go into urgent care at 11 o', clock feeling very sheepish. 11pm feeling very sheepish, because I'm just sure this is nothing. Well, Jenny, it was nothing. That thing was. But the thing that got me into urgent care made them find a dvt, which is a blood clot, a deep vein thrombosis behind my knee. And by the next day, I was having symptoms, even though I didn't have any when I went in. And it turned out, long story short, that I spent a whole day in the hospital, had multiple pulmonary embolisms in my lungs. If I had not gotten a shot of blood thinners the night before, when the Lord had me going for something that was quote, unquote, nothing, but turned out to be something somewhere else. Faults I. Those embolisms could have gone to my heart, they could have gone to my brain. And so, like, talk about the message of the book being driven home. This is a physical sacrifice. This is a dying to self. The Bible calls it offering up your body as a living sacrifice. And I always joke that, like, breastfeeding is the most perfect example of that. You're just like, you know what? Suck it all out of Me get life and sustenance from me. Because I was created to do this. This is. I'm sacrificing my comfort, my time.
- [33:45]
A
My, my teeth.
- [33:46]
B
Yeah, my teeth. My perky boobs. If I ever had those for you, like, and it is worth it because at some point I wasn't gonna have perky boobs anyway. And I'd rather it be because that's right, I literally poured into another human being than simply because gravity got a hold of me and I was, and I was busy trying to hoard the treasure of my body rather than use it as a tool.
- [34:08]
A
Hoard the treasure of my body. And you wrote this. I have pondered which child I would like to have gone without for the sake of having five more years with a smaller waist. And that's the point. The point is, is it's not for everything. It's not like you get to look like that forever. I remember. And, and here's the other thing. When you're 60 and you look 60, I'm gonna be 60 and look 60 because I've not done any of the botoxy things. Not that I'm judging, but like, I'm like I'm to look 60 and do.
- [34:36]
B
You know, although you have the best skin in the world, Jenny, can I just say, you have zero wrinkles like 20 year old skin.
- [34:44]
A
Maybe it's from the sun, but people would say the opposite. Right. So I don't really know. But anyway, do you know who loves their 60 year old, 60 year old looking person is the grandkids.
- [34:55]
B
Yes.
- [34:55]
A
You know, I like think about my grandma. She had so many random hairs on her face.
- [35:01]
B
I love it.
- [35:02]
A
And she never plucked them. And I like. And then when I started getting hairs on my face, you know, I don't know, it's been a bit like, I like, I'll keep up tweezers with me. That happens enough that I keep tweezers with me and sometimes I'll speak at a thing and I'll be like, oh.
- [35:16]
B
I like, I need to, I need to pluck that.
- [35:18]
A
Then I started to think more about my grandma and I was like, she never plucked hers. I didn't think about it until I started getting them. And I thought. But I never cared. I never judged her. I never was like, why does grandma have all these hairs on her face? I didn't think about it until I was in my 40s. And you know, I just think, well, that's part of the point is like you, you should get to a point where people love you for who you are and who you are in relation to them. And it's not about how you look.
- [35:45]
B
100. I mean, that's why it says in Proverbs 31, charm is deceptive, beauty is fleeting. But a woman who fears the Lord shall be praised. The people that I admire. And I actually had 13 women contribute to the end of every chapter. I love book Titus 2 Women is what we're calling them, where it's that whole exhortation to older women to pass on, like, God's goodness and to give, like, wisdom and encouragement to younger women. And I'm like, I'm 43. I have 10 kids. I have two legal adults. But there are women who are so far ahead of me on this path, that have grandchildren, that have multiple adult children that they still have wonderful relationships with. And all of these women, I asked 13 of them, and every single one said yes. I didn't have any backups, and I didn't have to, like, scramble. They all said yes because they all have this desire to affirm this message that when you say, oh, my word, like, this is a lot of work, this parenting gig. I'm really weary. Like, you tell me, abby, like Galatians 6, 9. Don't go weary of doing good from the proper time, the weep of harvest if you do not give up. I kind of feel like giving up. The harvest is not here yet. I am weary. It already happened. And I have a whole chapter on this, by the way, like, practical ways to get out of that slump. But I wanted these women that were. That had gone a lot farther in this journey and been faithful in it and persevered and produced such beautiful character to affirm what I'm saying, which is, it is worth it. Keep going. It is worth it because you're obeying God, regardless of any other quote, unquote, results you get. But also, the harvest is there in you and in your children and in the generations to come. And you know what? These 13 women are some of the most beautiful people I have ever met. And it's because their countenances are shining with the joy and contentment of doing what they were made to do.
- [37:29]
A
I love that part.
- [37:30]
B
They're authors, they are speakers, they are entrepreneurs. They are primarily moms. It's not just like the idea of, quote, just a mom, which I hate that word, just. It's not that the only thing they were made to do was be a mother, but they all affirm that the most impact they're having is on the people in their home thinking about selling your house, then you need a good agent. @fastexpert.com you can find top top selling agents in your area you can trust. Read reviews from past clients, check out recent sales, and browse their current listings. Selling a house shouldn't be hard. At FastExpert, we make finding your perfect agent fast and easy. Connect with top local agents@fastexpert.com today. Big news Wayfair's Black Friday sale is here right now. Score up to 80% off everything home. These are our best deals of the year. Shop Wayfair's Black Friday sale now@waybear.com Wayfair Every style, every home Cozy traditions feel good, especially this time of year. And that includes changing up your makeup look for fall. From lashes for days with the viral Liquid Lash Extension Mascara to enhancing a smoky eye with your favorite shade of brilliant eye brightener, Thrive Cosmetics is your go to for completing every fall look. Whether you want a simple just gotta get out the door routine or fall glam that wows from the office to all your favorite fall festivities, you'll always look and feel radiant with Thrive Cosmetics. Plus, every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean skin loving ingredients. And for every product purchased, Thrive Cosmetics donates to help communities Thrive. So every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're helping communities you care about too complete your fall look. Go to thrivecosmetics.com cozy for an exclusive offer of 20 off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics C-A U S E M E T-I C S.com cozy.
- [39:32]
A
I think that motherhood enhances what you're meant to do.
- [39:35]
B
I 100% agree actually.
- [39:38]
A
Like you said, you wanted to be an author. You're six years old. Motherhood enhanced that absolutely.
- [39:43]
B
Because when I was six years old I just wanted my name on a book because I love to write words. I love to tell stories. I didn't know what it was going to be about. I didn't know where that would go even at 30 years old. I actually was at a blogging conference and I had just changed my blog name to Ms. For Mama. It was something else before and I had some agents telling me that is a really marketable name. We like that. Send us an email. That should have thrilled my soul because I actually wrote a novel in my 20s, shopped it around to agents, did all of the like queries. It's such a a it's such a hard process to hear no so many times. And that is essentially all that I heard, praise God, that novel does not need to be out in the world. Like that's like a whew. Dodged. Oh gosh. So at 30 this agent is like message me and Jenny, you know what I never did, not because I didn't want to be published, but because one, I knew the timing wasn't right. Two, I knew that the desire to write was higher than the true message I had in my heart yet. And three, I knew it was going to be a stress to my family if I did get published. Interestingly enough, not so interestingly, not so surprisingly or ironically, but providentially, the timing of when I was actually able to publish my first book shouldn't have made any sense. Meaning I turned in my manuscript while nursing two 2 month old babies. I turned in my first manuscript. But you know what else happened is 2020 shut the world down. So I wrote a manuscript while pregnant with twins. I was just stating three bab book baby and two babies. And I had time to write that I wouldn't have had otherwise to do all the other things because they were just shut down. Now I wasn't really rejoicing in the shutdown, of course, but it was interesting to see the timing of that. And then I finished it up as they were little bitty tiny newborns. But that what did make sense is my husband was fully on board at that point and he was like, this is where you need to be. This is what you need to be doing. Your message is clear. These women are asking these questions. You know what God's word said? I it says about this go. And it's kind of been go ever since. But man, is it really cool to see exactly what you're saying. The way that the time management skills that I learned, the character that the Lord has built to me, which he is still building, I am far from where I want to be and I won't be there until glory. But the way that he has grown, my patience, my perseverance by time management skills, my discipline all through the vehicle of raising children and learning from them and honing my motherhood skills, all of those contributed greatly, not just in topics but in like actual skills and execution to my writing.
- [42:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the character and you know, the things that wouldn't have grown unless they had to grow 100 and then you have those opportunities every day to continue to grow. I had read a book, one of the things that really, it was like just a quick sentence is a book called On Being There, which is a really good book. It's about mothering in the first three years and the importance of those, you know, those three years. Zero to three. And one of the things that they said in there is that as a mom, I don't know if, I don't know if this is the exact wording and I don't even know if I totally agree with the wording. But it's like as a mom, you can do it all. I mean, you can't really do it all, but like, you know, whatever your passions and dreams are, you can do it all, just not at the same time.
- [42:55]
B
Well, that's very true. And that is something. So I like to do a lot of different things and when people see the list, it's actually kind of obnoxious because I've always been. The Lord made me someone who likes to do a lot of different things and was a little bit good at a lot of different things. I'm not excellent at a lot of different things, but I'm a little bit good. I'm like kind of a Jackie of all trades, right? And so when people see the whole list, they're like, well, that's super intimidating. And I'm like, well, I'm not teaching a fitness class while making waffles and teaching math and turning in a manuscript at the same time. There is a time. Speaking of Ecclesiastes, there's a time and a season for everything. And when I am hard core turning, turning a manuscript in, not everything else gets dropped. The main things stay the main things. But that's the only other thing I can really manage, you know. And so, yeah, you can't do it all at once. And anybody picturing you doing that is I think been inundated with too much social media.
- [43:51]
A
And I think there's a season for it too. You know, I, to me, it was like I took the message for me at that time because sometimes you look out and because of social media, just because of the way the world is and you can see until people's lives, lives so easily, you start to see, well, that person's doing this and that person's doing that and I'm not. And you start to feel like maybe you're getting passed by or maybe your opportunities are getting passed over and it's not true.
- [44:17]
B
No. And I, I have 100% been there. When I first started blogging, I actually I mentioned I have a different blog name. I had a different blog name. It's called five Days Five Ways. It was Scattershot. It wasn't Scattershot. Like random. I had a label day for each day of the week. Creating content five days a week for, for five different topics is insane by the way, especially when you have young children. And the Lord very clearly showed me that that was not a good way to do things. And so I abandoned that after about a year and a half because it just wasn't sustainable. But one of the things that that did I would say to me rather than for me is it stretched me out on all of those interests and it kept my voice and my message from being centralized and developing as much as I would like to it to. It also kept me from really developing a community. So I spent multiple years of self pity having little pity parties about other people doing better or having better friends or more friends or a stronger community. And because I was too spread thin, I was doing DIY projects and crafts and writing and motherhood and recipes and all those are good things. But it wasn't until I niched down to talking about the joy and the challenges hand in hand of mothering well to the glory of God. And then started asking really about 8 years ago I started a segment called what do you want to know Wednesday? And because people would ask me questions in my DMs all the time, I couldn't get to all of them. So I'm like, okay, let's pick one day where they can just ask me anything that they want to ask me. And these themes started to emerge and then I started seeing these accounts that were kind of having good answers for these. And instead of waiting for someone to come to me and having a pity party about it, I started reading, reaching out to other people and being like, hey, you want to be my friend? Hey, let's do a giveaway together. Hey, you want to do a collaboration with me to answer these questions or provide resources? And I ended up kind of building my own community instead of waiting to be picked. And I was able to find such kindred spirits and like minded mamas who were all pulling in the same direction, which was seeing this as a blessing and a calling and, and an incredible privilege. And that is honestly when my account started to take off. When I invested in other people and started answering other people's questions and quit worrying by why no one was paying any attention to me, which was such a sadly self focused way of thinking ever. But man, we're all capable for sure. Yeah.
- [46:41]
A
And it's, it's just especially in, in a day and age where everything is monetized is the wrong word. Numer numericized. I don't even know if that's word. When there's numbers attached to everything.
- [46:50]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [46:51]
A
You know, and I would look out sometimes at people that, you know, it's like, well, they have however many kids, and those kids are in daycare, and they can do four hours a day of work. And I was like, well, I can do 14 minutes a day of work, you know, and that's it.
- [47:03]
B
And.
- [47:03]
A
But, you know, it's so. It's. It's about. Yeah, it's about that focus, I think, focus that God gives you, and it's about trying to find the right time for it. I mean, I've become a professional reader, but I didn't read much when we had nursing babies. I read some, you know, but then, you know, the kids get older. You. You end up in different seasons, and you are an enhanced person. That. That's just the bottom line.
- [47:27]
B
And so that's.
- [47:28]
A
It's a good message about. About becoming a parent, becoming a mother. And you. You won't know until you do it, and you won't know how that's going to show up until you do it, but you got to do it, and you got to think long term, and there are so many blessings ahead. Okay, you talked about this. You talked about you're in Europe with all your kids. This is great. Okay, you're in Europe with all your kids, which is fantastic. Good for you. You take everybody there. Now they're doing biometrics. So I think you really dodged a bullet. Right? I think now you have to, like, scan your eyeballs in order to get into the different countries. So you went. When you. You went at a good time, and you got your kids and you step on attack. And the, you know, the twins have. The twins have destroyed a room that, you know, you thought they're being monitored and, like, they did. And it's someone else's house. Like, you're staying in, you know, Airbnb type situation. So the kids are like, you know, the twins get into all this paperwork and you step on the tack and. And you have a thought, which. Which we all have this thought of, I should bail. This is not working. And. And we planned for it. We thought. We planned for all the contingencies. It's not working. So one of the things that you talk about doing is not making big decisions under duress or. Or based off of temporary hardship.
- [48:41]
B
Yes.
- [48:41]
A
Can you explain where that might come up? I mean, it's. Fertility is one.
- [48:47]
B
Yeah. Fertility is probably the most obvious example that I get Questions or DMS about. I actually just saw Nick Freitas's wife post about how she. Someone asked her number one regret in parenting, and she said not having more kids. We basically decided to play it safe and have the kids that we thought we had the income for, but we didn't factor in as, like, income changes, you know, circumstances change. I cannot tell you, Jenny, how many times people ask me this question, is it wise to have another child if we are struggling financially now? And so I'll just open it up to all of my readers and then the messages will flood in. My husband, yes, yes, yes, yes. My husband got a.
- [49:27]
A
And it's always that, isn't it, Abby? Like, my friends would do the same thing thing every single time. Every single time. Well, every single time we had another kid, there was a raise. So I've always been like, I kind of want a house on the lake, so maybe we should have another baby. But from friends, especially when the woman decided to stay home and. Or to homeschool, they'll say, look, my husband got a job the very next week that covered my salary and more. And it was like story after story after story, but. But the salary didn't come until they.
- [50:00]
B
Made the step 100%. Yes. And that is not an American mindset at all. And so then we have people saying, what is happening right now? My toddlers are very difficult. I just had someone messaging me that they were hesitant to have another child because they dealt with postpartum rage after their first child. I talk in my first book about my bout of postpartum rage after my eighth child. I had never experienced that particular hormonal re before. I didn't know what it was while I was in it. I ended up starting something called the Gentleness Challenge, which I eventually turned into an e book because people were like, please just walk us through this has scripture, it has action steps for 30 day challenge to speak only kind speech or keep your mouth shut if you can't say something nice. That was like a practical thing that came out of a really, really hard season where I was not responding well to my family. So I could relate to what this woman was talking about. But interestingly enough, I had a lot of other pregnancies where I didn't have postpartum rage. So assuming that you shouldn't have another child because one of your experiences was a certain way is one a logical fallacy? Because we. Our hormones fluctuate, our circumstances change, our maturity changes. There are things that I am 100% convinced that were as hard as they were at the time. Because I was immature and I was expecting ease. And when I didn't encounter ease and made me really upset. And now, because I don't expect ease in the same circumstance, having gone through toddlerhood 10 times now, I'm like, well, this isn't. This part isn't going to be easy. It's not supposed to. That's not how it's designed. It doesn't ruffle me like it did when I only had two. And I was like, what is going on with you? Like, I'm so frustrated and so, like, why would I have more? I never thought, why would I have more kids after this? That really wasn't even, like, a concept that came to my brain, if I'm completely honest. But I told this lady, you might have postpartum rage again, and you very likely would be more equipped to deal with it. That's right.
- [51:55]
A
That's right.
- [51:56]
B
But you also might not, because I also had postpartum anxiety and mild postpartum depression. Again, I only recognize these things after the fact. In the middle of it, you're just like, what? Just make it another day, you know, and then I had other babies where I didn't really have anything that could be labeled as an issue. Is a pretty smooth postpartum. So your mileage will vary. Your circumstances not matching up with someone else's is not how you should be gauging whether or not you should do something or even your circumstances not matching up with your own previous circumstances. Right. Because I have had people tell me for sure, like, number two is why we didn't have number three. And I'm thinking, but not just you should have had number three for the sake of three. But that's faulty logic. What happened with her doesn't guarantee it's going to happen again. And even then, like I said, you could be more equipped. So fertility is a big one. People get vasectomies and then they're like, oh, shoot, we did that while we were stressed and sleep deprived, and now we want more kids, and now we have to pay for it and not even know that for sure it's going to happen. You see this with marriage. Sometimes you see people that make decisions either for or against marriage because of certain stressful situations in their life. Maybe they jump into something they really shouldn't have jumped into and have a lot of heartache because they were just trying to escape, like a family situation that was really hard at home, like, oh, listen, you're my ticket out of here. Well, it turns out to not be that great of a ticket because you didn't really know the person. You were just trying to escape a hard situation. So, yeah, if you're in the midst of what feels like a season of struggle, challenge, tribulation, suffering even, don't make permanent decisions about your life because, yeah, nothing lasts forever. There is a season for everything. And there is a principle in scripture of going through struggle and then restoration and then struggle and restoration, even in little micro ways, because you may feel like your life is mostly one of these, or you may feel like your life is mostly one of struggle. But you can probably, if you're honest, look back and go, there were valleys and there will. There were hills. And when you're in the valley, it's not the time to go, I'm never having kids again, or I'm getting a divorce, or I'm quitting this job forever, or, you know, that kind of thing.
- [54:03]
A
Thing. I love the. The scriptures that have no stipulations. So given. It will be given to you. There's no stipulations there. And you know, it's not. It's like give to someone who deserves it. I mean, it just says give, right? Just give, give, and it will give to you. And I think the. The scripture that children are heritage from the Lord is the same thing.
- [54:27]
B
No caveats.
- [54:28]
A
No caveats. It's not like whether you make this amount of money, you know, whether you have four or 10 or it. It's nothing. It's. The offspring are a reward and God gives promises for wisdom. So, you know, it's like I have heard story after story of God providing abundantly. But even if that's not your story, even if you have kid number six and there is no raise, I. I heard. I thought it was so deep. I read a book where someone was talking about learning to make do. It's such a gift to learn to make do with what you have.
- [54:56]
B
Have. Right?
- [54:57]
A
And I thought, gosh, that's a life skill.
- [54:59]
B
Yep. We have an expectation that we should have extra. And when that happens, that's nice. You know, it's nice not to have the stress of wondering where your next meal is coming from. I mean, most of us don't. I mean, I use that example because I was thinking at the same time of this book that we just read. We love to read Christian Heroes Then and Now. It's a ywam publication that. That highlights all of these Christian heroes of the past of the faith, like Jim Elliott and Eric Little and Elizabeth Elliott, of course, and C.S. lewis. And then some of these lesser known ones, like this woman who is called the Nile Mother, her name is Lillian Trasher. And she started the first like organized orphanage in Egypt. And she started with one child accidentally because she was at a mission and she had accidentally rescued this child where she basically was called to a house. And the grandmother was going to throw the child in the river. And so she said, no, you may not kill this baby. I will take her home. And then she cried all the time because she was malnourished and she didn't have her mama who had died. And Lillian and her sister took her into the mission and then the mission kicked them out because they were tired of crying baby. How Christian is that? And they found like they had like a dollar and they got got somehow a room and a building. And then over and over and over again, the Lord provided just what they needed when they needed it. And at one point she has like 600 children under her care. And some guy comes and tours her orphanage, which they have the children, and she have literally like made the mud for the bricks and then put them in brick forms and then put the bricks together to make the building. It's just mind blowingly difficult. And yet they're so grateful they have these buildings. This guy comes to tour facility and he looks in the storerooms and he says, man, him, where do you keep your food if not in your storeroom? She said, we don't have any food. And he said, you have 600 children out here that need food. What do you mean you don't have food? And she said, it's okay, the Lord will provide. And by the next morning, somebody had, you know, decided like, oh, I think on that one, it was like a ship in the harbor had gone to the wrong place or been blown off course and they were gonna have to dump it all in the ocean. Ocean or in the, in the sea? And this guy on the boat argued the captain down and said, no, do not dump it. We need to find someone that needs this. Well, who needed it. But the lady was 600 kids who didn't have any food in the storeroom. And it happened like the night before. They needed food the next morning. And that happened over and over again. George Mueller, same thing. Like he didn't have any food for his orphans. And so that morning this guy decided to break at 2am, he gets up to bake his bread. The baker of the town decides to make twice as much as he needs and is like, I don't really know why I did this. But you don't have any bread, do you? And George is like, yes, I do. And then the milk truck breaks down. It's a cart, it's not a truck. There's no electricity breaks down outside of the orphanage. Like at the orphanage door, something breaks and he's like, all of this is going to be ruined. Can you take my milk off my hands, please? He's like, yeah, I can do that. I'm going to give it to my 175 children that are in here without any food. So. So I don't think there would be any way to deny God's sovereignty, His provision, his providence and his goodness when you're literally receiving what you need, when you need it, literally. Your daily bread. Yeah.
- [58:17]
A
Give us this day our daily bread. And that's not what we want.
- [58:21]
B
No control.
- [58:22]
A
We want to control. But what a, what a more vibrant, faith filled life when you have to learn to make do with what you have. And you have to trust God. You have to trust that he knows. And, and that's what it says. Who, who of you, by worrying can add it, you know, add anything to your life and that the Lord knows and, and he provides and he cares for the birds and he knows the hairs on your head. And I, I think that part of trusting in any way is, is, you know, you trust to have another child. It's, it's a step of faith.
- [58:54]
B
100%.
- [58:55]
A
That's what it is. It's a step of faith. I wanted to repent because you had all these Titus 2 women and Heidi St. John is one of my favorite people. A bunch of your tightest two women have been on our show. So that was really cool to see. Jennifer Pepito and Sally Clarkson and September McCarthy, Greta and Heidi. And she says the blessing of motherhood is obvious from the first look at a beautiful newborn, but it is never fully realized until you look into the eyes of your beautiful adult children. It's a long term view and, and I think it's so important to talk about because sometimes we accidentally make long term decisions that we didn't want to because that's what, that's the culture we're swimming in. And we don't know that there's another way. And there's a verse that says wisdom is proved right by her children. And that takes a long time. Takes a long time for wisdom to show up. You know, it might take the whole thing and you know, it might take even longer than that. But God has answers for you. He Promises to give you wisdom along your journey. And this book will really encourage you. I think it's important if you got young daughters and they're getting these cultural messages, this will help them. Even if you, even if you read it as a parent and then are able to talk about some of the things with your kids as they're growing older. Because that statistic was shocking. 47% are choosing not to have children. And what a, what a tragedy.
- [60:12]
B
Yeah, it is. It truly is now. Because the good news is, if you're willing to have a countercultural mindset set and welcome children as the blessings they are and the opportunities that they are to grow and the just the people that they are to get to know. Because let me just tell you, just like Heidi was saying, it is so cool to get to know little people. It's possibly even cooler to get to know the big people as they develop, as they have their own interests, as they differentiate themselves from you and continue to carry the torch that you have been, you know, lighting with a spark this whole time. My adult children are yet very young adults, but young adult children are some of my very favorite people in the world. All of my children are. But it is so cool. I just had a birthday recently and we have a tradition where you go around and you say your favorite thing about the birthday honoree. In this case it was me. And my 19 year old was like, I just like talking to you about anything. Like we can talk about anything. And that was not always the case, I will say, especially when I was struggling after that, that eighth baby and was too harsh. That firstborn a lot of times gets a lot of that harshness. Like we have high expectations for them. And I know at 12, 13 years old, when that was happening, he was kind of like, you're not easy to talk to. You're stressed and you know, you're losing your temper over things that don't matter. And that's the good news though, is that because we have a legacy mindset and a long haul mindset, we don't have to be slaves to our failures. We can repent in front of our children, show them what it looks like to own, own our sin and our mistakes, apologize, ask for forgiveness, model that for them and then move forward and trust and keep planting seeds and keep, you know, forging the path ahead and upwards, onwards and upwards and trust that the Lord can bring that harvest. And it has been the sweetest thing to be like, man, you're right. You are so fun to talk to too. I love being your friend as well as your mom. It's so great.
- [62:02]
A
You could have never expected. It's wonderful. The book is called you Bet your Stretch Marks, the third in a wonderful trilogy. People can get it wherever books are sold. Abby, thanks so much for being here.
- [62:11]
B
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- [62:43]
A
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B
Fascinating.
- [62:55]
A
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B
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- [63:01]
A
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- [63:09]
B
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- [63:10]
A
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