1KHO 654: Belonging Is a Developmental Need | Rosalind Wiseman, Queen Bees & Wannabees

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 654: Belonging Is a Developmental Need | Rosalind Wiseman, Queen Bees & Wannabees
Host: Jenny Urch (That Sounds Fun Network)
Guest: Rosalind Wiseman
Date: December 19, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores the essential, lifelong human need for belonging—particularly during childhood and adolescence—through the lens of social group dynamics, play, and modern pressures. Jenny Urch interviews Rosalind Wiseman, author of Queen Bees & Wannabees (basis for Mean Girls) and Masterminds & Wingmen, delving into how belonging, social roles, technology, and adult involvement influence young people's development. The conversation spotlights the timeless, complex nature of childhood friendships, evolving cultural dynamics, the critical value of unscripted outdoor play, and practical parenting advice for supporting kids as they navigate these worlds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins and Impact of Wiseman’s Work

(Starts ~00:47)

• Dynamic Girl Groups: Rosalind noticed a gap in literature about the nuanced social dynamics among girls, leading to the creation of her landmark book when she was 29 and a new mother.
• Adolescent Social Learning: The skills and habits learned in adolescence around conflict and belonging last well into adulthood.
• Quote:
  "The consequences of social dynamics were really important for young people in the moment...the things we learn in our adolescence...absolutely impact us as we get older." — Rosalind Wiseman (01:21)

2. Evergreen Group Dynamics and New Cultural Challenges

(02:56 – 05:55)

• Belonging is Developmental: Wanting to be in a group is not "just" peer pressure, but a fundamentally developmental need for kids of all ages.
• Modern Complexities: Technology and societal expectations (the "middle class script") have intensified these group pressures, leading to feelings of disillusionment, paralysis, or disengagement among older teens and young adults.
• Quote:
  "Young people are realizing…what you sold us is actually a lie. And that is making young people paralyzed...disengaged. And I don't blame them." — Rosalind Wiseman (05:30)

3. The Lengthening Arc of Adolescence

(08:23 – 09:43)

• Earlier Puberty / Later Independence: Adolescence now potentially spans from ages 7-8 to 26 or even 28 due to changing cultural and economic structures.
• “Living in the Basement” Narrative: There’s often catastrophic or judgmental thinking about young adults who don’t follow traditional independence timelines, but economic realities (tuition, AI displacement) are real and growing drivers.

4. When Should Adults Get Involved in Kids’ Social Conflicts?

(11:03 – 19:55)

• Letting Kids Learn: Kids learn powerfully from their peers; negative peer feedback (e.g., “I don’t want to play with you because you bite") helps shape behavior more than adult intervention alone.
• When to Step In:
  • If direct peer feedback fails or a child can’t self-regulate, a calm, short adult intervention is appropriate—especially with repeated harm or ostracization.
  • Always remember as a parent: You weren’t there. Accept your child’s account may be incomplete.
• Quote:
  "Our anxiety drives the way that we parent way too often. It justifies why we get involved in some situations and it justifies why we don’t in others." — Rosalind Wiseman (11:32)

5. The Essential Value of Outdoor, Unstructured, Multi-Age Play

(23:35 – 29:17)

• Neighborhood Narratives: Rosalind shares candid stories of her sons' gritty and emotional learning experiences with neighborhood alley play—full of conflict, cussing, risk-taking, and self-organization.
• Dangers of Adult-Directed Lives: Over-scheduled, adult-run lives deprive kids of space to learn social nuance, adaptability, and limits. Toxic youth sports, with untrained coaches and high stakes, can harm emotional health.
• Protective Role of Multi-Dimensional Relationships: Kids who experience themselves as part of varied relationships (friend, neighbor, etc.) instead of just “athlete” or “student” develop greater resilience.
• Quote:
  "If they see themselves as one thing...they are really vulnerable to collapsing onto themselves." — Rosalind Wiseman (28:12)

6. Commercialization & Social Media’s Toll on Belonging

(30:53 – 33:49)

• Adult-Made Social Scripts: Social media and pop culture create unrealistic standards and pressures, especially for girls—designed knowingly by adults.
• Critical Conversations: Parents need to demystify and “break the spell” by explaining to their children that these tools were intentionally crafted to manipulate emotions and that adults can do better.
• Quote:
  "This was designed by adults...to make children feel not so good about themselves...Me, your mom, your dad, your teacher. I don’t forget what my responsibilities are to you." — Rosalind Wiseman (32:22)

7. Gender Myths & Group Sophistication

• Clicks and Roles are Complex: Both boys’ and girls’ social groups operate with sophisticated, layered roles—whether obvious or not.
• Teen Drama is Not Trivial: Everything from heartbreak to power struggles is developmentally crucial, not "superficial."
• Cultural Double Standards: Boys’ and girls’ roughness, competitiveness, or “mean” behaviors are interpreted differently; both need empathy and understanding.

8. Parenting Practicalities: Belonging, Apologies, and Guidance

(35:35 – 38:30)

• Self-Esteem and Belonging: Avoid overcorrecting negative self-talk (“honey, you’re beautiful, not heavy!”). Instead, ask children to name what parental comments bother them, and collaborate on better ways to talk.
• Repair is Powerful: Apologies, “redos,” and admitting when we overreact or ask too many questions strengthen authority and relationships.
• Quote:
  "When we apologize...our authority goes up, their respect for us goes way up, and our relationship gets stronger." — Rosalind Wiseman (38:30)

9. Boys: Emotional Expression and Listening to Quiet Signals

(40:28 – 48:25)

• Misunderstood Simplicity: Boys may appear “fine,” but their world is equally nuanced. Dismissing their emotional cues leads to greater future trouble.
• Practical Advice:
  • Wait before pressing boys with questions.
  • Accept silence or “fine” as sometimes all they can give.
  • Recognize group humor, put-downs, and roughhousing as complex social currency.
  • Anti-bullying and kindness programs often didn’t offer space for boys’ skepticism or emotional complexity; future initiatives must do better.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Adolescent Lessons Lasting Lifelong:
  "The way in which we handle conflict, the way we speak up or the way we don't, absolutely impacts us as we get older."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (01:21)

• On Disillusionment with Promised Rewards:
  "They have good reason for saying what you sold us is actually a lie."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (05:30)

• On Adult Involvement Timing:
  "Our anxiety drives the way we parent...and justifies why we get involved in some situations and not in others."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (11:32)

• On the Value of Unstructured Play:
  "Those little moments of, like, seeing your neighbor…if there is a neighbor who sees them and has a fleeting but important relationship with them, it is literally life saving for these kids."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (27:19)

• On Social Media:
  "You need to understand that this was designed by adults...to make children feel not so good about themselves and feel less than."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (32:22)

• On Apologizing to Children:
  "When we apologize...our authority goes up, their respect for us goes way up, and our relationship gets stronger."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (38:30)

• On the Emotional Depth of Boys:
  "What looks like their easiness is actually our own ignorance."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (48:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origin of Queen Bees & Wannabees: 00:47 – 02:22
• Group Belonging as a Developmental Need: 02:56 – 05:55
• Challenges with the “Middle Class Script” & Older Adolescents: 06:01 – 09:43
• Letting Kids Work Out Conflicts vs. Adult Step-In: 11:03 – 19:55
• Practices for Adult Involvement in Conflict: 19:55 – 21:52
• Importance of Neighborhood, Multi-Age, Outdoor Playout: 23:35 – 29:17
• Shortcomings of Adult-Run Activities & Toxic Youth Sports: 26:00 – 29:17
• Media Manipulation & Social Pressure on Girls: 30:53 – 33:49
• Self-Esteem, Belonging, and Parental Communication Tips: 35:35 – 38:30
• Understanding Boys’ Social Lives and the Myth of Simplicity: 40:28 – 48:25

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Memorable Closing Moment

• Rosalind’s Favorite Childhood Outdoor Memory:
  "Racing big wheel bikes and beating the boys...climbing trees, too. But racing big wheel down the hill against the boys in my neighborhood—absolutely the best."
  — Rosalind Wiseman (50:46)

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Takeaways

• Belonging is a real, critical developmental need—never “just” peer pressure or drama.
• Kids require unstructured, multi-age play and the chance to work through peer dynamics without constant adult direction.
• Modern screens, sports, and overscheduling undermine this, while both boys and girls navigate far more social nuance than adults often recognize.
• Listening, repair, and unscripted adult–child moments—not just instruction—make the greatest difference in building relationship, self-worth, and resilience.

Action: Next time you see your child lost in play, remember: the messy, sometimes uncomfortable social lessons being learned could last a lifetime.

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Transcript

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Close your eyes.

[Jenny Urch]

Exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Jenny Urch]

And breathe.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Jenny Urch]

1-800-Contacts. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have the author today of Queen Bees Wannabes, which was the basis for Mean Girls, also masterminds, wingman, Rosalind Wiseman. Welcome.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Thank you for having me. It's really. It's just awesome to be here.

[Jenny Urch]

New York Times bestsellers, both of them. Can you give a little bit of your backstory? You talked about how you. That there was books for girls and books for boys, but there really was not any books about girl group dynamics. And after reading your books, it's so interesting. You're like, gosh, there are deep dynamics both for girls and boys that I never really talked about. You know, you. You have a brush with it because you grow up and you. You deal with all those different things, but no one ever really puts it into words. What was your path toward that?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Well, there was some academically focused work on group dynamics, but frankly, they were sort of boring. And. And I was. This was a very long time ago. Can we be clear that, like, when these books first came out, well, Queen Bees especially, first came out, I was a little baby. I was. I mean, I was 29, and I wrote the book when my first child was. I was pregnant my third trimester. And when he was, you know, in his first six months of life. Right. So in between naps, I would write as fast as I could. But I was teaching young people, and it just seemed so obvious to me and that people weren't talking about it. In Impact, the consequences of social dynamics were really important for young people in the moment. And they also, by the way, it was pretty. You know, they are. And I've learned this now even more over the years that the things we learn in our adolescence, like, you know, the way in which we handle conflict, the way we speak up or the way we don't, absolutely impacts us as we get older.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, you had someone who said, you know, I'm 35 and I'm still acting, you know, in the same sort of.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Types of ways I did when I was in junior high. So talk to us then about what the. What the changes. The changes that you've seen due to technology, due to changes in culture since writing these books. I mean, there are some things that are still going to be the same. Right. Like, you go through and talk about how there's all these different roles that we play. The queen bee and the sidekick and the banker and the messenger and the pleaser. You know, I would imagine that a lot of that is still the same, but then I would imagine that some things have changed due to technology.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, well, sure. So people, look, there are some evergreen issues, right. Like, the evergreen issues are, is that adolescence is about wanting to be in a group. And that's not necessarily peer pressure. That's like, we say this word, peer pressure, and then, you know, we just. We sort of assume we know what that means. But it's a really deep developmental need to be a part of a group and to learn how to be part of a group and also to learn that sometimes, inevitably, things will happen in the group that are going to hit you wrong and going to have that moment of, do I agree? Do I join in? Am I silent? Do I actually speak out when I see things that I don't like? And what I was saying all those years ago is that I wanted. One of the things that's really odd to me still to this day is that adults tend to forget what it feels like to be a teenager. And so we forget. And so I wanted adults to remember and realize that it wasn't superficial what the kids were going through. And it's not so, by the. Like, it's not superficial what you went through as a teenager. It is not superficial today what young people are going through today. In fact, I would say it's actually more complicated for young people today, not only for technology. There's so many reasons why it's complicated for young people today. But to answer your question, there are evergreen issues that we had, like wanting a best friend, being in a group, having a heartbreak, being betrayed under, you know, trying to figure out what loyalty means. Those are the things that still are here today. Comparing yourself to other people and feeling like you're not keeping up today, not only a lot of those things are heightened, but also the amount of feeling of, like, that you have been, I think for a lot of older teenagers and young adults, like people in their 20s, I think the thing that feels really different is that they were sold like here's if you do X, Y and Z, if you go to school, if you do certain things well, you meet, if you set high expectations for yourself, if you meet some of those high expectations, if you do well in an extracurricular, if you go to travel, sports, whatever, and you do those things that you will be rewarded. Right? You will go to a good school, you will have success in the athletic world in some way, you. Right. And what young people are realizing, which has always been the truth, but what they're realizing even more so today is that that's not always the case. In fact, what we've been selling them, they have a good, they have good reason for saying that what you sold us is actually a lie. And that is making young people paralyzed. It's making them angry, it's making them resentful and it's making them disengaged. And I don't blame them. So it's also the feeling of like, okay, they don't just get to be paralyzed.

[Jenny Urch]

Right.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

I was talking to a young person about this today, yesterday. But we do need to acknowledge the situation that they're in.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, I heard someone say it's called the middle class script and it's a lie. That's what they said about it. And for, I think it may be in generations past, it did work to a degree and it just, it just doesn't anymore. So that is a really harsh reality to step out of maybe a tricky, a tricky junior high, high school experience into that world.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

So what, what do you think would be a more accurate thing to portray?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh, well, I mean, it depends. So I think it depends on how old young people are. Right? I mean like what stage they're in, age and stage. And you know, I know that you have talked about and it's so important about puberty and about all these issues about how for some kids it's happening younger. And you know, that's a really important issue because puberty, for example, or who goes through puberty impacts social dynamics and groups. And that could come as early as seven and eight. Right. So that's, it could come in second and third grade. And also I've around again like I work around the world and fifth graders last year just uniformly were just as a group were just horrible to each other. I don't know, it was like fifth grade. They not only were horrible to each other, but they were some, some of the meanest and I have to admit funniest things that were said to teachers. But mean came from 10 year olds so that's a thing. Right. Like that's an 18 stage issue. And then I think that what's important is that we understand how to communicate to young people in a way that we are credible so that we can, no matter where they are in this. In this. You know, we have long periods of adolescence now. Right. And so for lots of reasons. And so I think it's really important for adults to know how to speak to young people in a way that we build relationship with them, we are listening to them, which I define as being prepared to be changed by what you hear and to be able to get feedback about when you're saying things that are not working. Because young people want relationship with us. They just want a relationship with us that's functional.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. And that would help.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It's not funny. Funny. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Jenny Urch]

It would help with a lot of these things. Oh, yeah. A functional relationship.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It would be. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

It is a long adolescence. I talked to this man named Tim Elmore and he said, and he does a lot of work with Gen Z and he was saying that the. Basically 26 is the new 18. So he said adolescence is actually extending on both sides. To your point. It's like the puberty can be starting way younger. Even when I grew up, I felt like adolescence was like 11 to 11, 12 to, to 17, 18, and I was six years. Well, now it might be seven, eight to 26.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It's true.

[Jenny Urch]

28 even.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It's true. And you know, I have let's. And also let's take a step here because I want to be fair to the older 20, the mid-20s people that. So you could say, oh, you know, I mean, like there's media portrayals of, you know, these people in the basement and you know, they're. And one of the things that I've been really struck by recently is parents saying to me, I actually have it on my whiteboard. What is it? I'm worried my kids are going to live under a bridge or be in my basement their whole lives. And this really catastrophic thinking. But it's not only about people who are 25 years old living in their basements. It's also about how they're trying to figure out how to pay for college tuition and how all of these things that are not just I'm playing video games in my basement, it's like real, actual issues that we're dealing with in our communities. So there's reasons why adolescence is growing. Yes.

[Jenny Urch]

Like all the entry level jobs are getting taken up by AI Totally. Yeah. There are really difficult things to deal with. So that middle class script, they're sold that they're sold it for 13 years, you know, like do this, do this, do this so that. And then when the. So that doesn't happen yet, you're very disillusioned and.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

What are the answers for them? So can you talk about this is one of the things that you're talking about recently and is. Is very interesting. The parenting pendulum swings. And you know, we had latchkey K kids and then we're. Now we have helicopter parents. And these things tend to swing back and forth. I read a book recently called it's okay not to Share, which was about kids, younger kids, you know, maybe Birth to seven and the play. And she talks a lot about not stepping in and letting the kids learn how to work through their differences. But also sometimes you do have to step in that a kid that is repeatedly ostracized or repeatedly stepped, pushed aside, like you have to step in at that point and try and help them learn and figure out what to do. So when we're in these adolescent stages, which are maybe starting really young, like you say, is it really happening? So much younger, you say by the time kids are five, they can have super intense relationships, they can have arch enemies, they can have BFFs. Your daughter can have as countless opportunities to navigate these friendships.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, they do.

[Jenny Urch]

What is the role of the parent, the teacher.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

In stepping in. Because, you know, then you talk about in the boys book, you know, you have in the girls, you got the torn bystander, you got the target, you got the champion. Yeah. Which you before I'd called the floater. And in the boys, it's, it's similar, you know, you have different names for them, but you have the mastermind and the entertainer and the punching bag. How much is like let kids be kids.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Versus guiding.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah. Well, okay, so let me be clear also that I did not come up with those, especially for the boys. I did not come up with those titles. I had boys come up with those titles. So that was an important part of it because I really felt like I had 150 boys help me write that book. Because I really felt like even though I, I mean, I am an expert in adolescent development, but I'm not, I am not a boy. And frankly, I wasn't a girl at the time too. So I really needed to have kids, you know, really edit and critique me, which I do to this day. But you know, for me, the involvement issue is we do we tend, I really appreciate you talking about this is that we tend to. And individually in our lives, I think we tend to fall back on these patterns that we don't really think about. We just sort of our anxiety drives the way that we parent way too often. And it justifies why we get involved in some situations and it justifies why we don't in others. And so for example, for young kids, here's like when you have little ones and there's usually, for whatever reason, there's usually a child who is having a hard time managing their emotions. You have big emotions when you're three and four and five and you don't know how to process them. So you bite, right? There's all. There's usually a biter, right? There's usually a biter. And the problem and that. And so when a kid bites, children don't like that, like being bitten and so. Or they don't like being hit or they don't like. And so what happens? They say, I don't want to play with you, right? Well, guess what? Negative peer pressure in that situation is okay because a child who is biting or punching needs to hear from their group that their behavior is not acceptable. That is actually enormously motivating because it's not like you're a teenager and all of a sudden a group is important to you. It's that your whole life as a human being being in a group is important to you. So they're gonna learn really powerful lessons that are sometimes really uncomfortable to watch that, you know, a group of little 5 year olds when they're going to say I don't want to play with you because you bite, right? Or maybe you're going to. You might have to make that explicit of like, what's the reason the child needs to realize you're biting, Therefore there's a consequence that's an important part of this. Because I think there, we think that adult involvement guarantees or is the only way in which these children are going to behave better. That's actually not the case. Lots of times when, especially when children start going through adolescence, adult involvement does not. They don't care. Listen to us. Really, they don't. I mean, I hate to break it to people, but like the best of intentioned, well meaning people, when we get ourselves involved in our situations with our kids, they don't listen. And we can talk about why, but they don't. But they will listen more powerfully to like in these moments, I'm talking about, not talking about values, moments of like when we're talking about what's important to us, that's different. It's in the moment of conflict when an adult says, you have to be nice, show people what it's like to be a friend, just ignore that. Show them that they're the better person. You know, just be kind, show them compassion. That doesn't work. But young people actually telling each other that things are not working, that works. But it's painful.

[Jenny Urch]

So the tricky part then is when do you step in? And I think that you know this Heather Shoemaker, who wrote this book, it's okay not to share, which I recommend to every parent because it actually, it gives the foundation. I wish I would have read it when my kids were younger because she saying similar things to you when they're really little, like they're actually teaching your kid. Say to the other child, don't do that. Stop. I don't like when you do such and such. But then she said sometimes a kid can't self regulate and you do have to step in and say, yeah, you're not listening. And so I'm gonna have to remove you until you can change your behavior. It gets trickier when they're 12.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh my gosh. Well, I would say eight.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. When you don't know what's happening. Right. You come home and you get one part of a story. You weren't there.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Right. Okay, but hold on one second because you just said something that most parents forget in the moment. You weren't there. Yeah, most parents forget that they weren't there. And so their child comes home and tells them a story. And then that's like the truth. And I'm not taking away. I wish parents would remember, like just that you had that in your head. Right. That like you're not there. Yeah, you're not there. And so it's a really. I can't tell you as a parent. I mean, I certainly. Countless times as an educator, but humbly as a parent, how many times I had to learn myself that like when my. Especially with my. Well, both of them, but especially with my older one, that he would come home, he would get in trouble, somebody would get annoyed with him for good reason, frankly. And. And he would have a particular viewpoint. And my assessment after many years of having this child in my life was that usually the reason he was upset, I totally got it. But the way in which he reacted to it totally made the problem worse. And so it meant that there was a whole nother story that was going on that I wasn't crediting. And I always needed to remember like that there was another story. And the way I remember, I keep that in mind is when I'm, you know, as a parent, when your two children come to you and tell you a problem, that they're really angry at each other, both think they themselves are 100% innocent and the other one is 100% guilty. And, and so both of them feel that way. Well, I just want people to think about that in terms of there's other kids out there that are probably feeling the same way.

[Jenny Urch]

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[Rosalind Wiseman]

But you, you asked me about involvement, so here's what I would think. Here's what I think. First of all, I agree with the, you know, I agree with you about. There is a certain point where adults need to get involved, right? Like, and we're so scared, especially with other people's children, that we just sort of go, ah, right. And when things, when a child has tried, you know, for it to work, to say something, to say what they want to, you know, to establish a boundary, basically, and the other child isn't listening to that and continues the behavior, I would allow that as a, as a parent, like once, maybe twice at the most. This is for younger children. And then if I'm there, if I am there, then I would get, I would get involved and I would say, hey, what are you hearing right now? To the other child? What are you hearing? Or I would pause it. I would say, everybody, let's pause for a second. What do you want to say? What do you want to say? And this takes, this doesn't take four minutes, it doesn't take four hours. It takes like 30 seconds. And yes, I'm saying that people need to get involved with other people's children. I'm not saying you scream, I'm not saying you wait until you run in there freaking out. That doesn't work. It just freaks the kids out. Or it makes them, and it makes them disengage. But you do walk in there calmly with, this is what my work with David Yeager was about with the book 10 to 25 is what are the high expectations and high support that both of the children need in that situation? Right. What are the high expectations? You know, and that can start as young as, you know, when children are playing and they're socializing.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's all learning opportunities. And that really comes out in the book is that, you know, if, if we don't learn that you just say there's so many opportunities here. The fact that adolescence has extended, you could look at it as well. Now we have more opportunities to help teach and to help guide our kids.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

That's true. I'll tell that, I'll tell that to my 24 year old son as they go these things.

[Jenny Urch]

Okay, so then can you talk about, you talk about play.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And you're talking about it a lot in terms of sports, but also in general. You say play, as it should be, is filled with messy social dynamics, power struggles and conflicts. Play reveals things. Who's the gifted athlete, who's the rule enforcer? It reveals conflicts, it reveals these other roles that kind of come out. It's about interacting with multi age groups of kids. So you really get from these books which like you said, have been out for a while and I just love that. I love the staying power of a good book that you have. Like.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, thank you.

[Jenny Urch]

You can't ever imagine, like, hey, in a decade or however long it's been, you know, when it's been on the 15 editions of it and it's gone all over the world, someone's gonna be like, hey, can we talk about this book that you wrote in 2002?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy. Yes. I have redone Queen Bees and Wannabes three or four times. It's. It's true.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. So. So you do get though, from these books, especially if you've forgotten because you say, can you take yourself back? Take yourself back to the halls of the junior high. What was it like? These are actually very complicated structures. It is wild when you take a step back and think about, oh my goodness. You say clicks are sophisticated, complex and multilayered and every girl has a role within them. You talk about the boys as well, that their social world, even though we don't really acknowledge it, that their social world Is also very complicated you talk about. Because we're trying to get kids outside. And I really love multi age. Love multi age. Getting out in the neighborhood. The neighborhood type play about how that helps a child learn different social skills.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh my gosh. How, where do I begin? Because I agree so much with your, your premise, your value, right. Of, of getting outside and the neighborhood. And I, I just want to say like I raise my kids in Washington D.C. for the first half of their life. And then we moved to Boulder, Colorado and so we were living in a community of brownstones and there were 14 kids, all boys in that one block.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

And we had an alley. Right. So that's awesome. But it. And not. But. And there were really rough times with those kids in those alleys. And you know, and they, I mean, and they did disgusting, gross things in the, in the alleys too, right? I mean like, I'm not even going to say like one, I'm not even going to say, but they like built ramps to go off their bikes and they hurt themselves doing that and it was dangerous and it was okay. And I one time heard my younger son because there was a garage, you know, we had garages. And so I was in my garage and they were playing like a ball against the garage. And I heard my younger son, and he was seven and I heard my son's language was unbelievably bad. It was the cussing that was coming out of my 7 year old's mouth was so nasty, I couldn't believe it. And I mean it was. And so you find like they do things. It's a real, a really important window into like the reality of your children also. But they are learning and they're fighting and they're dealing, you know, they're in conflict with each other and they're having to work it out and they're, you know, I had kids walking through my door without even knocking, right. Which, which by the way, like I really do feel like most people need to knock. But if you're like in my group of kids, I don't think you do because it's your home, which means you abide by my rules. So it's, I can't agree with you more about like this getting outside thing. And anyway, so I can't even remember you were asking me what were you. Because I got so like, it's so.

[Jenny Urch]

Important, the value of play because to your point, these things are very sophisticated and complex and if you spend most of your life like what the statistics say, which is like you're on a screen, you know, you're at school, you're doing adult directed things. You come home and do your homework, you go to sports. It's very adult driven. Like, how do you learn the nuances of this sophisticated culture?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Well, I think you actually. Okay, so I actually think you do, but I think you do in a really toxic way. So, for example, and I. You really hit on something again that I think is so incredibly important. It's that where everything is adult driven. And I had a teacher, an administrator say to me last week, we have forgotten. Our teachers have forgotten how to just be with our students. They always have to have something to do. And wow, do I see that around, around the world. I see that. And we have forgotten how to be in relationship with young people. And so. Or if you're talking about athletics, I was a competitive athlete in high school and college. My children were competitive travel team people in middle school and high school. It was the worst decision I made as a parent. Worst, bar none. It was the worst consistent decision that I made parenting my children. And it's confusing because they were good athletes and they were good at it. And so you're like, oh, my, you know, my kids are so good at this. But they were around more often than not. They were frankly, around coaches that were not trained in any way in, like, adolescent development. So if they were good coaches, it was because they happened to be good human beings. And which they. There are some, but there's a lot of coaches that are absolutely toxic to adolescent development. And my kids definitely had their share of it. And also the other part for kids is that, you know, when you're talking about the importance of play and the importance of unscripted behavior, you know, unscripted relationships, you're seeing yourself as more than one thing, right? You are a friend, you are someone in the neighborhood. If you're outside, you're having little moments with people of adults who are seeing you as a human being. So you have other relationships with people that are not just your parents or your coach or somebody who wants something from you, who expects something from you. So those little moments of like, seeing your neighbor. When I ask young people who are the people they respect the most, time and time again, if there is a neighbor who sees them and has a fleeting but important relationship with them, it is literally life saving for these kids. Having a coach who is constantly pressuring you and you feel like if you have one practice and it doesn't go well and you're nothing is literally for adolescent development. Dangerous for them. And so it is so important what you're talking about, about having these relationships that are unscripted, that are spontaneous, that are just a moment. And so they're not just seeing them as one thing. And if they see themselves as one thing, one athlete, one kind of extracurricular thing, one kind of thing, then they are really vulnerable to collapsing onto themselves. And it's such an important thing that we just constantly miss because somebody told, well, I know who did it. And I like Malcolm Gladwell's work a lot. But that issue of 10,000 hours, you're gonna master something made parents insane. And then the sort of machine of team sports and athletic sports, of which it's really about making money and not about the development of your child, it just worked horribly, insidiously well. And parents bought it, bought into it. And I did too. And it was really to the detriment of all of our children's emotional and physical health and safety.

[Jenny Urch]

There's a lot of layers to that one. I've read a couple different books about toxic youth sports and also like what's really good about them. But it, like it ties into our own ego, you know, Totally. We're honest about it and then.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Absolutely.

[Jenny Urch]

Also our own fears of the middle class script like you talked about at the very beginning. Because if your kid is a good athlete, they can often bypass the college admissions process and then they get scouted. So it's just such a web, it's such a sticky web. And what it's doing is it's taking away from a lot of opportunities for kids to have these multi age play that they got totally, totally learn this landscape and how to navigate it. Because you just do such an incredible job of reminding the parent who probably has forgotten how complicated this is and how young it starts. Now you say we collectively seem shocked when little girls are mean to each other.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

By third grade there's kids that are going through puberty. And so this is starting really young. You say, I don't think we live in a culture that we're pushing girls to be meaner, but I do think we live in a culture that normalizes, pushing our kids to be older. Yeah, more stereotypically adolescent. Then you talk about how social media companies that are made up of adults, adults who are parents, a lot of them depict girls as fashion obsessed, superficial, caddy, manipulative. And they create and market toys and social media that encourage girls to value their appearance and pursue material things above all else. And that we're trying to get kids on the right track at these early stages. So also we have. Oh, this was a huge sentence. I guess this is actually similar. So before we move on.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yes, I'm ready.

[Jenny Urch]

Move on. Because I do want to talk about the boys. I thought that was really interesting. I really related. You're like, they just kind of seem fine. So you're like, all right, but one thing before we move on, you say we focus on getting our children on the right track at earlier and earlier ages. So the things they love to do or show aptitude for ironically become a track for relentless anxiety, egoism, or insecurity.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

True.

[Jenny Urch]

And how sad.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

And how sad. Love to do things they love to do things they love to do. Yeah, absolutely. It's. It's really. It is. It's sad. And, you know, I really have to say, for those of us, you know, for parents today, I think it's absolutely. When we're talking about, you know, you said these things about social media people and people running them, and those people are parents. And yet they, you know, Instagram puts out, like, some things to, I guess, to help young people with, like, you know, ratings and things like that, like movies recently. But I think it's absolutely incumbent upon parents to sit down with their children when they feel that their children can, you know, understand it and say, look, I use this phone, or you're using this phone or using this app, and you need to. We. We need to understand. You need to understand that this was designed by adults, by grownups, some of whom are mommies and daddies. And they actually knowingly created some things in this program to make young people, to make children feel not so good about themselves and feel less than. And feel like they're not as good as other people. Some of those people are mommies and daddies, and they did that. And that's really hard because sometimes some grownups forget what their responsibilities are to children. But we. Me, your mom, your dad, your teacher. I don't forget that. And so I'm talking to you about it because we're going to use this tool. We have to use this tool, but we're going to use this tool in an informed way and in a way where we understand how we can take as much ownership as possible. So these are the kinds of conversations that we have to have with young people. You know, your kids, obviously, like, I'm stuck talking in general. Maybe this is something you say at seven, maybe this is something you say at nine, but you certainly don't allow them to be interacting with any of this. Stuff and you know, if you're giving your children at three, and I understand this, I get it, because my gosh, I was exhausted and I just wanted some time, you know, to focus for myself for a minute. I do, I really do. But we've got to be talking to them as early as possible about not just that, you know, these things can be addictive and that kind of stuff. I want them to understand that they are in a system where adults did this on purpose and that they forgot how to be adults, but that the adult in front of you, they have not forgotten.

[Jenny Urch]

There's this man named Neil Postman who was a futurist and he wrote a book. He's written a lot of books and he's not alive anymore. But one of them was called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And he said that no medium is especially dangerous if its users understand what the dangers are. He said to ask is to break the spell. And that was, you know, long before computers were really even part of common culture. But I thought, you know, it seems simple, but also I do feel like we have not asked and we have not fully and especially at the beginning, my goodness, just handing out, how could we phones and not considering the dangers. And I think then that applies now to AI like you're like, okay, well this is fun. We can make these videos or we ask these questions, but you have to also be thinking of the other side of it. What, what might the dangers be? And then talking to your kids because you talk about how, especially for girls, you say the images of beauty for girls and the issues of, the issues of beauty for girls start at really young ages. Don't be surprised if your 6 year old starts comparing herself to other girls, noticing who's beautiful. Girls know they're being manipulated by the media to hold themselves to an impossible standard of beauty, but they hold themselves anyway. So these are important things to be talking about.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, there was a, A girl who.

[Jenny Urch]

15, she said, I have never met a person who thinks she's pretty. You sit and pick apart every flaw. The combined list of how you don't measure up really adds up. Yeah. So, yeah, things that like you said to be talking about with the kids and you're also really empathetic. You say, life is messy, parenting is really messy and parents come to you and they feel like they're failing and you say, let go of it, let go of all that. The only way you can feel is if you don't try. And if you disconnect, then you know you can fail if you Disconnect. But as long as you're there and you're trying, keep at it. Basically. Right.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Well, can I say, I think for both boys and girls, I want to give, you know, for your, all of your, you know, all the wonderful people in your community, I'm really focused on, like, what are the things we can say to young people? And so I just. There's one thing on, like when girls are giving our negative self talk because of what you're talking about. And for parents, well meaning parents, parents very, very, very understandably will say things like, honey, you're beautiful, you're not heavy, you know, or then if you're worried about it, then you start, like, making healthy meals and you start talking about healthy meals and your kid knows what you're doing. And so I just have a little bit, you know, of like, concrete advice about that because our kids immediately, you know, they know us so well and they get so reactive. And, you know, we're just trying our best and we love them and we're worried and so we're like, God, what do I say? And so for, you know, in that situation to sit down with your daughter and say, hey, I just, I'm going to give you, I. I just want to get. Give you 60 seconds to tell me all the things that I tell you about, like your body and health and all of that that really drive you crazy, that really make you just be like, mom, please stop talking. Dad, please stop talking. I'm. I just want to hear it. So know that actually I'm figuring that I'm actually making that maybe I'm doing this in a way that it's just too difficult. Like I'm really irritating. And so give them 60 seconds to tell you how irritating you are. And then when you hear it, like 60 seconds, then you're done. They don't get to go on and on and on. And then you say, okay, I'm irritating. I'm going to work on it. Let's work on it together. I do want. You do know that, like, what's motivating me is really important, right? Like, what's motivating me? And your kid's going to roll their eyes maybe, and say, because you love me and you want me to be healthy and like all that. And you're like, right, so what are the things? What? And then ask them, what are the things I could say that would be less irritating to you? And also, not only that, but where, because we forget the where part of it. If we say it in public, in Any way, it gets way, way worse. So just do that. And then the other part, I think, for both boys and girls is that if we need to apologize, apologizing is so powerful. When we do it well. Meaning we say like, hey, I overreacted right there. I asked you a million questions when you came to me with a problem, and I was like, what happened? Where were you? Where was the teacher? Da, da, da, da.

[Jenny Urch]

Right?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

I'm like, I realized. I thought about it. That's overwhelming. So I actually can. I'd like a redo. I'm really sorry about that. Can you tell me, like, thank you for trusting me to tell me. And I really want to hear it if you're ready to tell me.

[Jenny Urch]

Me.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

And then don't, like, look at them expectantly with, like, weird eyes, like, waiting for them to tell you. Just open the door again. But when we apologize to boys and girls about that kind of stuff, we get them to be we. Our authority goes up, their respective us goes way up, and our relationship gets stronger.

[Jenny Urch]

These books are filled with practical. So I just want to make sure I. Before we move on, I just want to make sure that I address that for people that are listening. So, you know, you go through all the different roles in the clicks. You go through the different types of parent that you can be. You're addressing adolescents, you're addressing popularity. You're addressing all. There's a huge thing about Q and A. You're addressing, what if your daughter desperately wants to be one of the cool kids? What if you don't like her friends? What does your daughter want you to know? You know, I wish my parents knew this. What works, what doesn't work? Teach your daughter not to blow off her friends. For a boy. This is an ironclad rule that begins when she's little. It doesn't matter if it's the love of her life. So there's these what ifs and how do you. And a lot there. The technology front as well. So all sort of centering around this fact that we all want to feel a sense of belonging. You. Right. This isn't a character flaw. It's fundamental to the human experience. So moving on to. But. But to be clear, the queen bees and wannabes was the basis for Mean Girls.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

That is true.

[Jenny Urch]

So people call you the. What do they call you? The Mean Girls. That Mean Girls.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

I know. So it's so. It's like, it's the pro and con of my career.

[Jenny Urch]

So what happened? They just. Someone saw it and came to you and said, yeah.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Tina Fey. Tina Fey read an article in the. In the New York Times that profiled me, and she needed. She was under contract to write a script for a movie with Paramount. And so she read this thing that I was profiled in and bought the rights to Queen Bees and Wannabes. And here we are.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow. I mean, it's a. It's quite a movie. And it really, you know, it really does show, though. It does show all of these roles in.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It does.

[Jenny Urch]

And in that regard, I think it's really helpful. I think it's helpful to remember how tricky and complicated those years can be. So then you have this book. You followed up. It was a bit later with a boy's book, which is ironic because that's what you have.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Right, exactly. You have some. Exactly, exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

And I related to a lot of this. You talked about the Batman. Does Batman ever smile? Batman has no emotional range. And you look at sort of what's shown in culture and you kind of just are left thinking that boys are flat.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Talk about our. The myths and misconceptions there. You say, boys say, I'm fine. So we're like, okay. They're probably fine.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Well, first of all, you know, looking back, I think that book came out in 2015, and I think it was, frankly, not ahead of its time because I felt like it really needed to be. It needed to be out there. But I think that subsequently it's quite clear what happens when boys feel like they don't. That they're not being given a voice, they're not being listened to, that they're being shut down. And I was seeing it. I was absolutely seeing it. And so I wrote this book and it's extremely, extremely relevant today. So, I mean, I think it was, you know, it's hard to say, like, it's more relevant today, but. But it's pretty relevant today. And I think the most important thing, as the mother, if you are parenting, excuse me, of boys, is that we really are living. And we. What got. We went through. We have gone through this phase, basically, where we told kids in schools because we were worried about bullying, to be kind and compassionate. Right. So before that, we were in a phase where people were like, you just need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Getting bullied in conflict makes you stronger. You know, that kind of thing. Then we swung the other way and we were like, no, we need to be compassionate and kind and have, like, kindness pledges and anti bullying presentations. That did not work. And boys in particular had no space to Be able to talk about the complexity of their relationships and a lot of what they were doing in acting people thought was wrong. It was like too rough. It was too this. And people, meaning mostly women, frankly, have a really hard time distinguishing when boys are playing and when they're fighting. And actually the boys often don't know until sort of there's times when playing turns into fighting or into a big, like, power dynamic, which I'm sure when I'm saying this, people listening to this, you can, you can see it, right? Like you, you have a vision, right? Of like when boys were sort of messing around, playing, and then all of a sudden something happened and like, it got too intense. And then, and then something happened, right? Like, and a boy ends up crying and fighting and all. Whatever, whatever.

[Jenny Urch]

Which I think is the point, actually.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Okay.

[Jenny Urch]

You know, they say like, roughhousing is so good for kids for so many reasons. And I think part of it is because you're always teetering on that edge and so you're learning what are the boundaries. Like in those early age, like, oh, I hit too hard. And so because like you said in the. The kids, they want to be part of a group, they want to belong. It's a way for them to test what's too much and, and where's that boundary?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Absolutely. And so here's the thing. So to your point, when that happens afterwards, the thing that we usually say about boys and girls, which is not really helpful, is boys fight and then it's over. And girls just, you know, are manipulative, backstabbing, you know, Machiavellian, all this stuff. So what happens sometimes with boys is that there are times when they get into a conflict and they fight and it sort of gets cleared, Right? The conflict gets cleared. That can happen. But my experience is, working with boys is that more often than not, the power dynamics, dynamics in the group get calcified or reinforced in that conflict. And so it's a really important. So it really, like, this is again, like boys relationships, although they look simple, are not. And they're also incredibly important to them. Like if you have a boy in your home, you know, that their WhatsApp group there or their, you know, whatever, their, their chat group is incredibly. Like, they probably have many. But like their boys, their boys, that group is like super important to them. And the way in which they communicate their love and their. All of that is also really important to them. But we tend to dismiss boys experiences and we tend to dismiss their emotions or if they don't do it in the way that we think is the way they should, then it doesn't count. And so one of the things that I want us to realize is that boys say, okay, so the quintessential thing, you pick up your son at, at this after school or after practice and you say, how was practice? And they say it was fine. And you're like, oh, you always say it's fine. Remember, you know, we were talking a little while ago about like practice or school. Your son could have had incredibly difficult, complicated situations that happened. Maybe the coach screamed at him, maybe somebody made fun of him, maybe that embarrassed him. But he doesn't want to tell you because if he tells you, then you're going to ask a million, million more questions. And he's exhausted because he just wants to be in your. He just wants to like, be in the car, be quiet, listen to music, whatever it is. And so when you ask a lot of questions, you are emotionally exhausting him and he's been trying to keep it together all day. And so it is exhausting to listen to all these adult questions. So to just when you see them, especially boys, to say, hi, like, like, it's really good to see you and just be quiet, like you don't have to do anything. And so if he says fine, he's not necessarily, maybe it's fine, but it also could be he had a really, really difficult day and he just doesn't want to tell you because you're going to ask too many questions. So it's important for us to realize the impact of us on them and to stop defining the way we define emotional connection as if in the way that they do. So for boys to just be able to sit, like, for me to be able to sit with my sons and just be quiet is incredibly important for us to sit and like play cards. Incredibly important for us to just be quiet like in a car. Incredibly important. That whole thing of people used to say, advice, I hope they don't anymore, of like, get your child into the car. And then that's.

[Jenny Urch]

You're.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

They're trapped. And so that's where you have these conversations. They're trapped. Why would anyone want to talk to anybody when they're trapped, even if they. Right. I mean, it's like, right, so. But what we're seeing, the other part of this too, I just want to name, is that boys, we've gone through a phase where also boys had real questions about these anti bullying programs or about things, you know, like these character programs or how we should talk to each Other programs in school, they had understandable questions and skepticism about those programs because those programs often were not very good.

[Jenny Urch]

That's right.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

And so they would. And they. The way they expressed that skepticism was not like, hey, I'm not really liking this program. The way they expressed it was they were 12 years old in seventh grade and they made a joke to their friend because that cements their social connection with them. And then we thought they were being disrespectful and that they didn't care about these issues.

[Jenny Urch]

Issues.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

We literally were not creating an environment for them to be able to actually contribute and participate. And we blamed them for it. And so now what we're dealing with today is a generation of like 10 year, 10 years of boy. This is what I think, you know, obviously this. But this is what I think of boys not being able to ask the questions that they had or doubts that they had nuances in their relationships. When somebody makes a joke to me and I'm a particular ethnicity and they make a joke against me, my ethnicity. But we're very close friends. I don't really mind, but the school is telling me that this is a level one suspension like issue. I have questions about that. We didn't allow them to have those questions. And so now what we're dealing with is a tremendous amount of complexity and frankly a lot of cruelty of being able to just say things to people. And now we've swung the other direction of like, you just have to put up with it. And anybody who has a problem with anything that anybody says is too sensitive.

[Jenny Urch]

What a hard spot for our kids to be in.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Yeah, hard spot. But you know, the beauty of it is, the beauty of it, Jenny, is like the work that you're doing with like getting kids out and the being able to acknowledge the stuff. The thing that's the blessing, swear to God. The blessing is, is that our children thank thankfully that when we talk to them honestly and we say we're going to be the adults you need, they're like, it's literally like, okay, I've been waiting for you this whole time.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. Because they're so wise and they're smart and they're living it. And that's what you say. Boys are a lot smarter than most people realize. You say, I'm convinced that what looks like their easiness is actually our own ignorance. You talk about the, you know, that they're, they are, they put, they're putting each other down, you know, but this is, that is a complicated social system as well. In which friendships are deeply valued. And strangely enough, if you look and listen beyond the put down yelling and laughing boys, friendship dynamics are just as complex and nuanced as those of girls. There are unwritten rules. Being funny has always been and always will be one of the most important skills to have in boy world. And to your point, we're not really listening. We're not really listening to these kids that I brought her up a couple times because I really like this okay not to it's okay not to share book. And I read it this year and she said, what's the matter with high energy play women?

[Rosalind Wiseman]

I'm gonna have to read this book.

[Jenny Urch]

That's a pretty strong, pretty mellow. I got to interview her and I was like, she was this really mellow woman. But I was like, oh, that's a really strong statement. And she said it's an extreme statement and not always true, but it can help frame the issue. The adult females in a young child's life would seek to control the energy.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

It's totally true. It's totally for a lot. For a lot of. Of women. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to read this book. I don't disagree with her.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. So a lot to learn. A lot to learn. The anti bullying is interesting. I'm going to put a link to. You have another article that just came out recently and you know, I just, I'm. I'm thankful for having read these books. There's so much more. They are lengthy books. There's so much more. We just sort of scratch the surface. But you know, you're going to get out of them a lot. That's going to help your kids through these extended adolescent periods. And then, you know, the hope is that you always write more because these are the pertinent issues of our time. So ra. So appreciate you being here. Here. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Racing big wheel bikes and beating the boys.

[Jenny Urch]

Those are the best. Oh, those are the best. Those big wheels are the best.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh, they're the best. They were the best. That was my favorite favorite. Well, you know, climb climbing trees too. But racing big wheel down the hill against the boys in my neighborhood. Absolutely the best.

[Jenny Urch]

The best. I so appreciate your time. And there's a thing, you know, get out there and play the kids learn all sorts of things through those actions. Thank you so much for being here.

[Rosalind Wiseman]

Oh, it is such a pleasure.