← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 656: Real Education Success Starts at Home | Dr. Kelly Cagle, Parenting IQ Podcast
00:53:25
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- [00:00]
A
Every holiday shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission.
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Like a gift run that turns into a disco, snow globe, throw pillows, and PJs for the whole family, dog included.
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A
At Ross holiday magic isn't about spending more.
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It's about giving more for less.
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A
Ross, work your magic.
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B
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I'm so excited to have Dr. Kelly Cagle here with us. You are doing all sorts of work with the families with adhd. You have your own podcast. You have all sorts of courses. Big welcome to you.
- [00:32]
A
Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.
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B
All right, tell us about your background. You've got this PhD from the University of Texas at Arlington in K to 16 educational leadership and policy studies. Your research includes alternative instructional methods and school choice, which is interesting. Is K16 just what it means? Is it kindergarten to age 16?
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A
No, no, no, no. It's grade 16, as in higher education.
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B
That's what I wondered. K16. So basically it's all the way through college.
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A
That's right. So it's just a mouthful for education, kind of any level of education, although it doesn't include pre K. You know, you study a lot of human development. And so it. Learning starts literally from the moment, honestly, of conception, right. Because the mom's learning all the things the baby is developing and. And doing all the beautiful things that creation is, you know. And so you asked how I got into this man. I'm originally from Brazil, Jenny. And so if you hear my accent come out, that's my. When I. Back in my coaching days, the girls would always say, we always know when Coach K goes pissed because her accent comes out. So it also comes out at random times whenever I'm speaking and things like that. So if it comes out. Audience now, you know, it's because I'm from Brazil. But when I moved here to America, I spoke no English. I was 11 years old. The school system in Brazil is because of the way that the weather is. We're below the equator. So our. Our winter, our summer break, excuse me, is December. So that's when our school year ends. And so it goes January to December. So I just finished fourth grade in Brazil and we moved here. I spoke no English and I went to visit with the counselors, and they're like, you know, typical. Like, I don't know what to do with this little girl. She speaks no English, but, but her transcript is incredible and technically she's got enough to go into sixth grade. I just finished fourth grade, so here I am, no English whatsoever. Skip. I'm given the option to choose either second semester, fifth grade, or second semester of fifth or sixth grade. And I'm like, well, duh, that's a no brainer. I'm going to skip fifth grade.
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B
Hoorah.
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A
So I skipped a year and a half of school then. And in high school, same thing. I, I now have learned the language a little bit. I was determined to not be that girl who had no friends. I was uprooted from everything I had ever known, including my friends. Dad was a pastor in Brazil, Small town, everybody knows you. And then I moved here and I know no one. Neither can I meet anyone because I don't speak the language. And so come high school, I learned English. I had fresh, you know, you know, the, the, like as many friends as I could have. And I have a Brazilian friend who says, kelly, I just heard of an opportunity that we can graduate high school, skip a whole year. We could just, we just have to take one summer school class to get enough credits. And then that last year of school is our junior slash senior year. And I was like, let's do it. So all together, I skipped two and a half years of school. And that always stayed with me. Like, what is this? How could this system say, hey, this child who I know nothing about, doesn't even speak the language. How can we just rush her through life to get this diploma in her hand to then launch her into the world? So when I became a mom, it all became personal, you know, and I said, my kids need something different. I don't know what. And I became a teacher. I got a master's in school counseling. And during my internship, it dawned on me that I still couldn't serve kids like I wanted to serve them. Like, my heart was so much into the. I want to see you thrive beyond. Just like, let me push you to the next level. And I, I heard the Lord say, keep going to school. And I was like, oh, I'm not that smart. I'm really not that smart. I can't do it. And he said, yeah, you can't, but I can. So here I am, you know, several years later, lots of schooling later, with letters behind my name and a diploma on my wall. Three diplomas on my wall. But it's really all because it became personal when I wanted my kids to experience something different.
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B
I don't think I've ever Met anyone who's done, you know, like a lot of times the degrees as it relates to education are elementary. Maybe you have a degree that focuses on grade 7 to 12, but K to 16, which is basically all the way through the college years, is really intriguing. Why did you move from Brazil?
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A
Well, okay, it's another funny story. My sister, who was, I'm one of five, by the way. I know you've got five kids. It's so fun. I'm number four. My oldest sister had just graduated high school and she had a girlfriend whose uncle lived in Boston. And she was like, hey, I'm going to go visit my uncle. And my sister jokingly said, take me with you in your suitcase. And the girlfriend was like, let's go. And what started as a joke, within a couple of months both of these girls are here, over 10,000 miles away from home. At age 18, my sister spoke some English, but then both of the parents, the families would get together and have prayer meetings for them for safety. Obviously, like all the fear related from the parents, like, oh my gosh, my kids are abroad. And then quickly, I guess the parents heard the Lord say, hey, you are all moving. And we ended up here like two and a half months later. We sold everything. Dad had, we a business owner. We had a church of 700 plus members, you know, like all of our whole lives. Dad was 43, mom was 38, and they moved everybody here. So that's how I ended up here. And it all started as a joke, but I think all along there was, you know, orchestration taking place from, you know, our sovereign God that we were just like, okay, we're just walking and here we are.
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B
What a huge change in an environment like that. And I've always wondered this and I've never asked anyone, how do you learn the language and how quickly does it happen?
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A
Okay, so I will say this. I was 11, I have seen my, my brother was 16 and he spoke a little English before he moved here. And so he moved within high school age. And so he was fully immersed as well in that continual education in the classroom setting. Now, both of my sisters, one was 17, one was 18, and they both had done English school in Brazil, you know, kind of the typical like we do here. Spanish.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And they, they still have an accent, they are fluent, no issues whatsoever, but they still have a pretty thick accent. So I do see that the age plays a big role when you do move to a certain country, a foreign country. But I will also add that the child, like my brother always told Me, Kelly, you're the smartest kid in the family, Mike Baloney. You are, you, you're, you know everything and I do not. I just, you know, happen to be a super mega nerd and I love to learn, but I do think that the child has to be curious. And this will speak a lot to your listeners because that's what we're after is just this freaking curiosity that's being sent out of kids and it's, how can we bring that back? And so I was just curious about, man, I don't want to not connect with people. You know, Jenny, our humans have a great need for a sense of belonging. All of us not. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can be 80 something. That's why those individuals in the nursing homes love when little kids come and visit, is because everyone wants to feel loved and belong. Right? We all want it. And so I was in those pivotal tween years, developmental years, and I wanted to belong and I couldn't belong. And so that was my sense of motivation to, gosh, I'm, I'm not, not going to belong. I'm going to figure out a way so I would come home. Do you remember pbs, Arthur, back in the day?
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B
Yes.
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A
It retired, I don't know, like eight years ago. But that was my show. I would come home, turn on Arthur. And that was a huge way I learned the language. So now I know I have adhd and so now I know that obviously the rhythm and the, the repetition that always played a role for the music that would play. I knew all the, I could repeat all the words. I didn't know what they meant, but I could, I would figure it out.
- [08:55]
B
Yeah, what a life changing experience. And you come here then and, and they have you skip a grade, which is so wild because then you're with kids that are completely different age. So that's an interesting choice. And maybe they gave you the choice. And now you're here, you've got these three amazing boys and you are helping a lot with adhd. So there's a lot of focus there. ADHD families, you've got this membership community and I'll put links in the show notes and then your parenting IQ podcast you courses and different things like that. Can you talk about the ADHD part as it relates to our school system and how the school system is set up for these kids?
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A
So because I do research alternative instructional methods, I have looked at school, school systems abroad and when we compare, if we're going to compare, which we don't want to compare, right? Like that's a bad word here in really society. I hate comparison. But we do have to look and see, hey, how can we learn from these other countries that are really thr and these kids are excelling? So whenever you look at the higher education data, so the Asian community, and you know, they are extremely high achievers in the graduation rates and the retention. So you look at freshmen dropouts and things like that. Our American students are so used to. And please don't, don't take me wrong here. I'm just, you know, presenting data. We are just doing everything for them. Like we're catering to their needs and all of these different accommodations and all these things. Well, the Asian community, they're like, hey, you're gonna go to school. You, you have no alternative. And it's very black or white, like you're going to school. You also look at a lot of the, the individuals from India or, you know, the Middle east, and they're like high achievers, high dollar earners. Why is that? Because, same thing. You are either going to figure out a way to make a dollar, you're going to, you're going to be a dentist, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be a dermatologist, you're going to be something, right? And, and for us here in the US we're really hyper focusing on just the, the heart and the emotions, which are also extremely valid and important. But we have this, this sense of over, over focusing. Like we're focusing way too much instead of just being like, hey, you know what? Life's tough and we're going to figure it out and we're going to go do hard things. You know why? Because we can. And we have opportunity. Land of opportunity. So let's go get it. But going back to the education in Finland, for example, if we're looking at the K through 12, Finland has one of the best education system in the world. And they don't start kindergarten at five, they start at seven. And what are they doing that very first year of kindergarten? Playing.
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B
Right?
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A
They're playing. So they're learning through play. Where here in the US we have rescripted that and we said no, no, no kindergarten. We have to perform. And we got testing coming up in third, got all these other things. And so again, it, we're, we're racing it, we're making it like all about this, this race and competition, when in reality it's like we also can pause and let kids be kids because it'll.
- [12:11]
B
Come it's so valuable to have spent time looking at, at where things are more successful and what makes it that way. And here I just think we sort of barrel forward with what everyone else is doing. You may not even know or realize. I didn't, I didn't really realize once we hit kindergarten age that around the world people do it differently. You know, they don't do it exactly the same. Like, can you imagine not having any seat work or anything until 7? What a difference that is, that these kids would just thrive. So I love that that is your focus of study. Can you talk then about the graduation of high school to grade 16? Right. Which would be, I guess, graduating college. That is a hard time right now and maybe it always has been. I think it's always tricky to figure out what you're going to do with your life. But I think especially now with AI and the fact that a lot of the entry level jobs are being taken, what helps a kid thrive through those years?
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A
Well, I think that that's, that's a really good point actually, because think picture this with me, okay? I'm gonna, I'm gonna paint this picture. You have been under mom and dad's roof. The safety that you can come home and kind of just plouch on in your bed and shut the door, remove all of the noise and all the things you don't want to do in life for, for all the high school years and you sleep when you want to sleep and teachers accommodate for you. You know, I was a high school teacher and so, and I taught Spanish and so it's like, man, you do not, you really focus on those kids that are barely passing, especially if they have a sped attached to their name. It's like you do not fail them. You just don't fail them. Because then the paperwork is this and the phone calls are going to be endless from emails and you, you we've been sugarcoating and like protecting, doing a lot. When I was with golf, she said this and I haven't been able to shake it. She said, you know, Kelly, I know we all mean well. We're all just trying to do our best for our kids. But what I see is that parents are really trying to do too much. Like we're trying to do everything for them to shelter, like to bubble wrap all of our kids from this. We don't want them to fail. Of course, Jenny, you got five kids. You don't want your kids to fall flat on their faces. But how are they going to learn if they don't they're not always going to have you right there to reach out your hand and pick them up. Here's. Here's a funny story. This. This morning, we. We have a dog. His name's Jethro, and he's so cool. He's literally amazing. But the boys, my three boys, 14, 9, and 7, they take turns feeding him. And they kind of came up with a system on their own. And I hear them bickering about this often, like, hey, it's your turn to feed Jet.
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B
No, it's not.
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A
I did lesson. No, it's your turn. No, it's not. And I'm just, like, getting my water and thinking. I have these dialogues, and this is the perks of, like, knowing what I. I know a little too much. And then I'll come present research. And they're like, oh, here comes mom again. I read somewhere and I'm just. I just pause and I'm like, kelly, don't say anything. Because in my head I'm thinking, maybe I should invest in that Skylight calendar, and I will just assign things for them. And then I pause and I was like, no, I would be robbing them from this conflict resolution moment that's taking place right now where they are figuring things out on their own, where they're learning to communicate where. Where they're learning to really emotionally regulate themselves not to lose their cool on one another. Okay? Me as the mom, I want to solve it because I don't want to freaking hear it. I. I don't. But do I want them to know how to solve that 100%. And so when you look at that transition, going back to your question, that transition from high school to college, you're now launching your kid, likely to a whole different state. And you're like, hey, have so much fun. I'm also paying thousands and thousands of dollars, so make sure you go to class. Okay? Like, don't just bum out. And you're saying, attaboy, good luck, have fun. We're not scaffolding the situation for them that. That transition in a healthy way. So we gotta unbubble, wrap ourselves or our children. I'm sorry. And let them struggle a little bit. Let them go figure out whose turn is it to feed the dog. Because then whenever they have to go and, you know, tell a. A roommate and say, hey, it's your turn to the dishes. No, it's not, bro. Yeah, it is. And then they can. They can this on their own. Mama's not going to be. The Skylight calendar is not going to be there with that little checklist.
- [16:47]
B
None of the college students are using the skylight.
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A
Yeah, no, no, I wouldn't think so.
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B
At least, I mean, that is, that is a, a skill set for life. Because in any work environment that you have, it's always like, well, whose job is it? Is it my job? Is it your job? Whose turn? Who has to do the thing? Yeah. So these are the places where they learn all of these skills for life and you can help them scaffold if you give them opportunities to work through that. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people genuinely love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. And that's why I'm going with Quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince truly has something for everyone. Their soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they look and feel like the designer pieces you see for 200 or more. They've got gorgeous silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday life, and outerwear that actually keeps you warm without feeling bulky. And their Italian wool coats, oh my goodness, these are standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and made to last for season after season. What I love most is that Quint works only with ethical, trusted factories and uses truly premium materials. Yet their prices stay far below what you'd pay at other luxury brands. Personally, I've been reaching for my Quint's cashmere non stop as the holidays get closer. The cashmere feels incredible and soft structured and it doesn't pill. It is the kind of quality I normally expect from a 200 sweater, not $50. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins, in the next I'm looking around my house thinking, wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where's the wreath from last year? And who am I still missing gifts for if you are in that same last minute scramble, Wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair from bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house. It is truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids reading nook. Everything came with fast free hassle free delivery and it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting mode, Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget and I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried like kitchen essentials, storage solutions and seasonal decor. To get everyone in the holiday spirit. Now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family. And instead of running around trying to catch up, Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style, every home. So talk a bit about ADHD. So this is one of the things that you focus on. You have ADHD and you talk about helping families and you have all sorts of courses and things. You have one called how to Master ADHD at Home in five Weeks. Growing Wiser ADHD Families. One moment at a time. Talk about your experience and then can you talk about how we can help our ADHD kids, especially in this culture of school that starts really young?
- [20:15]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I would love to to talk about that. So I like you said, I do have ADHD. I was a late, I was in my late 30s when I got diagnosed and then a lot of my hiccups in life made sense. So because you guys have already heard that I'm not from this country for years and years, including my doctorate level coursework, when I struggled, I always went back to man. I have to reread this same page five times because I'm an English language learner. So all everything for literally 20 years of my life. I've now been in America for nearly 27 years and it always had been I'm an ELL. I'm an ELL English Language Learner. That was always my fallback. But then it became apparent in different areas too My oldest son, who's 14, has ADHD. And it was at 2 that I knew. I was like, this kid, he's something's different. His very first word is an infant. Wasn't mama or dad. It was ball. So right then I was like, man, this kid is fiery. Like, he wants all the balls.
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B
And.
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A
But now that He's a. He's 14, he's a tornado. Like, everywhere he's been in the room, he's a tornado. But because we homeschool, and I, you will never, as an educational researcher, you will never, first of all, never hear me say that homeschooling is the best route, because it's not. It's really not. It's what works for us. It's what works for you guys, but it's not what's best for every child, because every home is super unique. And so that rhythm in each home is specific to the home, to what the dad is like, to what the mom is like, to what the kid or kids are like. So he's a tornado. If he were in a traditional classroom environment, which he's a soccer player, we had to pull him out of our university model school to homeschool because he travels all over. And so we needed an extremely flexible schedule for him to do, to do things to be able to do, to steward his giftings and his talents. But, man, I look at Josh all the time, my husband. I'm like. Which, by the way, Josh, Yeah. I'm like, it would be a nightmare if he was in a classroom. He would be that kid I would get called weekly from the principal because he wouldn't be able to sit still. He just blabbers. He, you know, and I've worked. We have worked on self control with him since he was born forever. And he's now 14. But he is a teen boy, and that's also the way that God made him. So I can rewire how I parent to love on him, because had I done things differently in his life when he was little, had I made him sit still, had I not been in touch with the teachers constantly and in. In a collaborative environment, because we have not always homeschooled. This is our third year homeschooling. We have always had this relationship. Hey, here's my kid. Let me tell you about my son. Here's how to make him tweak and how, like, how to tweak him, and here's how to make him really be engaged. If I didn't have that awareness and really that conversation where the teacher could Come and tell me things. I would. I never questioned. I never said my kid, not my kid that you know, because I said, yeah, I know he is a tornado. I, I know that he is loud. I know he's very energetic, but man, he's so cool. He's so awesome. And so I always partnered with the teachers in ways to do that in, in ways that were successful for both of them. Not just for my son. It was never just for about my, for my son, because I Understand there are 20, 30 other kids in that classroom. And so, you know, it's. It's a collaboration. It's a conversation. And that to me is what keeps that open door. I call it open door policy. Come tell me if. If there are things working here. I'll come tell you if you have things working there. Come tell me. Like, let's. We are, we are a team. We're in this together for the success of the child.
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B
So, okay, tell us what are some of the ways. What are some of the successful ways that worked? Because you're talking about, look, I got this kid that's high energy. And everyone can picture that, right? You've got a classroom. It has four walls. It's big, but it's not very big. It's filled with desks, and there's 24 other students, and there's probably a couple other tornadoes as well. What. And I, and I liked what you said, like, it has to work for everyone. The teacher. And I was a teacher as well. It is a really hard job, and you have a lot of accommodations that you have to make sure legally that you abide by. And so what are some successful ways to partner with schools and with teachers when you have a kid that's got a lot fiery and has a lot of energy?
- [25:00]
A
One of my very favorite things is, and I know a lot of schools don't even allow it. Man, I chew gum like a mat. My dentist hates it. But that gum chewing, whenever I'm becoming anxious and nervous about something, I. I put that piece of gum or I'm driving, like anything, if I'm having to sit still. And my son does the same thing. We're at church where he's having to pay attention that try a piece of gum in your kid's mouth. I'm telling you, because there's sensory intakes that's. That's happening from that gum. There's minty, a blast of minty flavor in their mouth. So you've got the taste, sensory that's being picked up. And then you have this release of intensity, right. This energy that they're either going to tap, they're going to swing their legs, they're going to do something. Now you've just taken it to their jaw, a different muscle that's now being able to release energy. So I think gum is a super powerful, overlooked thing. And if your school doesn't know for gum, man, just, I don't know, get a mint. Like, do something that's, you know, not gonna be disruptive to the rest of the classroom. I was getting my hair done yesterday and my hairstylist, her kids also have adhd. And I didn't know this cause I've been out of the classroom for a while. But she said, kelly, an accommodation that they've given my son is that he can actually pace in the back of the classroom.
- [26:16]
B
And I was like, let's go.
- [26:18]
A
That is incredible.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because how. How often, Jenny, when you were a teacher in the classroom, do you. Did you have that kid that would pick up the tiniest little piece of trash just to walk across the classroom to get some steps in? They just have, like, give them movement, that sense of freedom of you are not. Your butt is not attached. Like, it's not glued to that seed. You can move around. And that's what I would tell Levi, my oldest. And when he was in the classroom setting, he would sit in the back of the class by choice. This is what he told me. I did not give him this idea. This was him because of the empowerment that we had done and all the work that we had done together to, like, equip him. He said, mom, I said in the back of the class, that way when I feel that energy bubbling up and that, like, tension happening in my body, I just stand up and I just stretch my arms and I, like, stretch my legs and I do some movement. You know, as a podcaster sitting here, I tense up, sure. Because I'm having to sit still. Although my hands are moving like crazy. I'm surprised I haven't hit the mic yet. That's. I'm known for that.
- [27:29]
B
But.
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A
But as soon as we're done, I'm not like you. That I can do back to back to back to back. I like, I will explode my muscles. I will have to take a muscle relaxer before I go to bed because I like, I tense up. And so it's just this. I think that the gum is a good one. I think giving permission to move around is another great one. The breaks, if the kid comes and asks to go to the bathroom, it Literally could be that, you know, they. They don't have to pee, but they just want to walk around for a minute and see a little something. Give them permission for that. So I think those three are. Will not interrupt the rest of the classroom.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I'll end with. With this one example. When I was a teacher and this was before, I really was ready to. To welcome adhd, because for a long time I was like, no, the ADHD is just an excuse for bad behavior is really what I believed. But. But now I obviously am embarrassed to say that, but it is what it is. We learn. We live and we learn. I had a student, he was right after lunch, and he was the one who took the ADHD medication before he came to school. And then at lunch, he needed the two doses, and I had him fifth period, so it's right after lunch. His meds hadn't kicked in yet, which this is. I'm not judging if you take medication, if you don't. This is. This was just his. His story. Okay. And I had him right by my desk, and I got done teaching, and now they're working, and I'm pacing up and down the aisles, and when I get to him, he's standing and he's hovering over his desk, and he's hunched over on his paper, like, writing. Am I? Hey, hey, buddy, can you sit down, please? And he's like, Ms. Cagle, I promise I'm working. It just helps me if I stand while I'm working.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I look at his paper and he had gotten everything right. Yep.
- [29:21]
B
These are small things that. That makes such a huge difference. I. You know, it's interesting. I read a book just a couple weeks ago, and I interviewed the author. His name's Dustin Nickerson. He's a comedian. Him and his wife, and they have a podcast, too, and the book is called how to Be Married. And it's a little bit of a memoir. It's like. Like it's about their own relationship. But one of the things he said that was eye opening to me, and I think I could be eye opening to a lot of people, was he said he has a really hard time with. In conversation. Like, he gets bored and same thing like at church. Like, you brought up church, or, you know, you're sitting in a classroom or you're sitting at a podcast, you know, and so he said that he found that if he has in. This is going to sound kind of awful, especially on this podcast, but he's like, if I'm playing a mindless type Game on my phone, I, I can pay attention better, basically, like a Tetris or Angry Birds or something that, you know, doesn't involve all of your concentration, but it's inputs. And so I, I was like, you know, I am actually the exact same way. Like, I really cannot see. I mean, I doodle on everything. So if I, like, if you were to see however many pages of things I have here and I, I'm drawing, I've got a whole thing of different colored pens. I mean, the. So, so if I were just to sit here for eight hours in a row and was not able to sort of take notes and, and have those inputs, I wouldn't be able to do it. And in fact, I just started. I learned how to crochet recently and I was like, this is the perfect thing. It's providing sensory input. And I feel like I can pay attention better when I have certain types of sensory input or stimulation. So in a classroom setting that really, like, I mean, I'm, I've been out of the classroom for almost 20 years. I'm like, if I would have known that because you, you think like, logically, where the kid has to be sitting, they can't be doodling. They have to be paying attention. But actually that's worse for some kids. For me, you know, I, I would have learned better. And this one woman told me a story. Her name's. I think it's her, Dr. Carla Hannaford. But she, it might be somebody else, but she was saying that she was teaching. She was a professor and she was teaching a class. And she said there was one student who didn't take any notes, zero notes the whole semester. She just knitted. And by the end of the semester, she had the sweater and it was beautiful. And she got the best grade because whatever that sensory input was and it was, it was like priming her brain. So I just think these are really important conversations for any teacher, for any parent, because maybe these are suggestions you can take to their school is like, are there different little bits of sensory input that they, that help them? Whether that's doodling or gum or, or standing up or walking around, whatever that could be. Or in your homeschool.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah. So I'll bring up research from Harvard psychologist Dr. Howard Gardner. He came up with the multiple intelligence theory. I'm sure you're familiar with it. So. So, you know, it's one of those things that when I became aware of that theory, this huge light bulb went off and. And I'm sure you're the same Jenny if you could go back and be a teacher again, you'd be a freaking amazing teacher to all of those students. And I did the best I could with what we knew then, you know, but at the same time, it's like there are eight different ways that kids, people in general are gifted. So we measure intelligence just through iq. And if we look at our American education system, we standardize tests and all grades and the heavy emphasis on did you understand the content is based on your grade? When in reality there's, there's not everybody is a great test taker. In fact, I had to take the GRE two times and neither times did I score high enough to get into a PhD program. You know, you were talking about the K through 16. That's kind of uncommon. It's like a top notch research institution that I got into. And it was literally like, I know that God paved a way and open doors and so I could keep, could be there, but there I am not a good test taker. I have testing anxiety. And now I know because I'm having to freaking sit still for hours and hours. That's not how I thrive. But you get me to move around, you get my son to move around. That is the kinesthetic learner, right? That's one of the types of learner, is through movement. My kid dislikes school, but he can throw any ball, he can kick any ball. And that's what I was saying earlier, that had I tried to make him fit into that mold of what success looks like in a traditional classroom environment, I really would have put out that really unique flame that's to him with his gifting physically, right. Athletically. And so that is one of the ways. Another way is a spatial, a spatial intelligence. So I have a kid who the master builder, we always called the master Builder, Titus, like he can come up with the craziest, wildest things. Well, that's an intelligence. You, you. When it comes to academics, he's great at math, but he struggles in other areas. And it's like, man, you get him to build anything. So we overlook for the sake of uniformity, right? For the sake of everyone. This is what it looks like. These are the grades. This is what you're expected to do in order to go to the 11th grade and all these other things. And you know, whether you are homeschooling in a private school, in a public school, in a charter school, honestly, it doesn't matter. We as parents are the number one teachers of our, our children. And we have to take that role very Seriously. In order to help them thrive. So whether that is with navigating ADHD and figuring out behavior management strategies, that can help, because ultimately ADHD is really just a struggle with self control. You know, it's all of the delays that happen with the brain and all, yada yada, all the things that you've always heard, but they have to learn how to manage themselves.
- [35:24]
B
Yeah.
- [35:25]
A
In whatever environment.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah, that's right. There's this man, Mike McLeod, who I really respect and has done phenomenal work a lot with adhd and he says that exec, I might say this wrong, so hopefully I don't, but that the executive function, like it's an executive functioning disorder and that what kids really need to be able to do is to be able to do non preferred, non stimulating tasks. And that so much of what childhood is today because of screens. The kids can do things that whatever they want, you know, they don't have to do chores, they don't have to feed Jethro. They don't have to, you know, do these different things. They're, they're sort of being coddled. And then also everything is stimulating. So they're playing video games and their social media, everything stimulates them. So it's like, well, can you, can you enter into an adult world and have self control like you said, to do things that you don't prefer and that are not wildly stimulating?
- [36:24]
A
Yeah, that's it. That's that. That is the definition of self control in a lot of different examples. Right. Because nobody can make the choice for you. Life is full of choices, whether it's with what college you're going to attend, what you know, how you're going to teach, what curriculum you're going to use for school you're going to send your kids to like, are you going to buy this? Are you going to buy that? Everything is filled with choices and if we're always looking for the shinier thing, then you're the important thing will always get left behind.
- [36:56]
B
Yeah.
- [36:58]
A
You know, so like, as a podcaster, maybe you can relate. I love this part because this is really stimulating for me. I love connecting with people. You're super cool, super wise, super knowledgeable. I'm super honored to be here. But then the behind the scenes stuff where I have to then, you know, send it to my producers, get in.
- [37:17]
B
Touch with them and like, figure out the teleprompter. Like you're like, at some point the whole camera was so cockeyed. And then another point was like, we are so close to each Other like I can see right into your eyes. Yeah, yeah. And there's a, there's a lot of elements to a lot of the things that we do in life.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah. And it's important, you know, it's, it's important because the. Ultimately, yeah, we're giving our kids a childhood. But man, eventually I'm, I've got three sons, they're going to be husbands and I really hope that I have, I'm gonna be. First of all, I'm gonna be a mother in law. Like my mother in law, she's so cool. So if I'm gonna have cool daughters in law, then I've gotta have really amazing sons that will attract.
- [38:02]
B
Tell us about Josh's mom.
- [38:04]
A
Oh my gosh, she's so cool. Okay, so Josh's father, a little sad part of the story. He died in a car wreck 10 years ago, nearly 10 years ago. And she's always been amazing, but since then we've just kind of like come around her and just surrounded her. Josh is one of three boys as well. And we said this, like, we're going to navigate this, we're going to figure things out with, with your mom, Josh. So that's actually when I quit. Work was to be available for her and as a support system, she was still working, but she now has retired and she's that fun grandma that will call. It's like, hey, it's your anniversary weekend, can I take the kids? I'm like, yeah, you can take the kids. It's like, hey, it's your birthday coming up. What do you want for your birthday? She'll show up with this amazing plant that's just gorgeous. For my big table outside this year she gave me two lounge chairs. She's like, one for me, one for you, for us to lay out by the pool. So that's it. I'm telling you, she's, she's incredible. Incredible in her servant heart, but she's also the one that, I mean, we'll just have dance parties up until one in the morning, the back door is open, the kids are in the pool and we're over here dancing and just living it up. Like she's, you know, so she's awesome. She raised amazing men. And my father in law had a huge role in their work ethic that now we get to partake and benefit from, you know, the, the work ethic that he really raised these boys with. And, and she was the heart and she's the one that would try to discipline but really sucked at it. And so they now laugh at her like, mom, we can't discipline like you. Not even her dog. She can even train her dogs because she's that nice, you know. But that's kind of mother in law. I want to be.
- [39:49]
B
Oh, she knows you. She knows you. It's your anniversary. How about this? Your birthday? How about that? Oh, that's so inspiring. Okay, so then talk to us about home. Because you talk about how you just said it. Parents are the number one teacher. Which to a lot of people would be like, well, no, there's an actual teacher, so it's not me. But you say real school success starts at home. You are your child's number one teacher, even if you don't homeschool. Can you talk about the rhythms of the home that can help a child extend their success in whatever direction they take?
- [40:21]
A
Yeah. This to me is. It honestly doesn't even matter what school you partner with, what you know, homeschool, doesn't matter what method you used. If you begin with this less is more mentality. Because right now, in this environment that we're in, you know, and you again, you release tons of, tons of episodes. And it's. There's a lot of information out there, amazing information that going back to Sissy's point, there's always something that we feel like we need to be doing. And it's like, man, there are times that there. It's just less that we need to be doing, you know, And I'm a. When, you know, the early 2000 and tens when that Marie Kondo documentary came out, and she's like, minimalism. And even my friends, I've been talking about this for so long that my friends are like, kelly, there's this new documentary. You have to watch it. It's going to be right up your alley. So I watched in the Mike, you, my friends, know me well, but it's so true that. And I'm not, not even a minimalist. But man, if we just remove distractions because when we look at screens, when we look at information even, yeah, there is so much that we could feel like we are never enough. We are always doing something wrong. There's always more that we need to be doing. When I believe that to create the rhythm. This is why I said earlier that not homeschooling is not the best. There's always something. You know, every home is different and unique because the rhythm is your rhythm. Jenny, what you guys do and how even you spend time outside, how you go out in nature, the. The local places that you go to that's, you know, your kids well, and you can serve them and you can help them thrive in those environments, in those times. And so whenever you stop comparing your life to my life, my life is great. Your life is great, but in its unique ways and mine in my unique ways. Why? Because I. I always say this. The mom is the heartbeat of the home. If the heart is healthy, what happens to the entire body? It's. It's healthy, it's good, it's functioning. It's, you know, but if the heart is not beating well, if something's off, what happens? The whole body feels it. So the kids, you know, the kids are going to start with the tantrum. So this connection is going to come big time, come into play, that your marriage is going to feel it. The. You're going to be seeking for alternative ways to be stimulated and to be engaged and. And all along it's just because you were trying to do too much and you were distracted. And so I go back to less is more. So I'm gonna. That, that is what I want to say to your listeners, to you guys, to us, to you and I here as moms. If we remove more practices, just another activity, things. We need to be a part of all of these things and decide, you know, what's important right now. What are my kids needing right now? And that's what we're gonna do.
- [43:28]
B
You are sinking in the camera. I know.
- [43:30]
A
I see it. That's right on the phone. I was like, trying to move this. I hope you can edit all these things. I was trying to, like, sink in my chair.
- [43:38]
B
I think this is the most fun part of it right now because we were just talking about how it's like, fine to have the conversation, but it's all these tricky parts. I actually think people will love to see this. A close up of a close up of me.
- [43:53]
A
There's me. I was, like, trying to sink in my chair.
- [44:00]
B
An easy fix.
- [44:02]
A
There we go.
- [44:02]
B
Now we can see all of your face and not just part of it. So this is more, which is hard. I mean, that is hard in this day and age. And you have to trust that. Simple Parenting is one of my favorite books, which is really just kind of about that. Less is more.
- [44:14]
A
Yep.
- [44:15]
B
Tell us about your podcast. It's called the Parenting IQ Podcast. You talk about family rhythms, you talk about neurodivergence, parenting challenges and solutions. What are some of your favorite things to talk about?
- [44:25]
A
Man, Favorite things to talk about is I. I. Because I get this question all the time. It's my favorite thing to talk about is how do you do it all? And I'm like, are you, are you serious? Because again, going back to this full rhythm of less is more. Do you know how, how many no's I say? I've gotten so good at no's. I haven't always been good at no's. So I think that, that boundaries is really what I'm getting to this. Less is more leads to. You've got to have strong boundaries. You got to have strong boundaries with your intake, with your schedule. This is what I was going to get to the. The less is more. Your intake, your schedule. Right. Your commitments. Like, what is it that you are saying yes to? So in the podcast, we're talking about using the daily little moments as big learning opportunities. That's our mission. We help parents use the daily little moments. So what is that? We're becoming this number one teacher. We're not relying on textbooks. You know, my son asks me all the time. He already doesn't love school, so he's like, mom, when am I gonna use geometry? I'm like, you're not. You're never. Unless you go work for your dad and go build really cool builders. He doesn't even use shapes. I'm like, yeah, he does. Blueprints include all sorts of shapes. You know, I'm just trying to connect this about like, you're right, you're not. But the, the discipline to get something done and that perseverance again, life lessons beyond. Beyond like the grades. So that is actually one of my favorite things to talk about is that connection of the everyday moments in. With what are, what are we learning from. From this that's gonna be impactful. Not that it's just like, I'm gonna ace this, but it's really gonna matter. And that goes along with. You can't do it.
- [46:09]
B
All right. Right. That's the answer. If someone were to say, how do you do it all? I would just say, I don't.
- [46:17]
A
Easy.
- [46:18]
B
I don't. Like, things are messy. And yeah, I don't. Things fall through the cracks all the time. And I like that you talk about rethinking academics for real world success, about finding all these little moments of learning that you're. You've got a long term view because you did this education that's dealing with K to 16, which, like I said, I never hear anyone talk about that. Pretty much all education. Like, if you are involved in education at all, I think there should be a bit of. You really should get a Sense of early, like pre K all the way to 22. Wouldn't that give you just a better sense of like, where we're headed and what we're doing and why are we doing it instead of having it be so like, well, this is K to 3 and this is 4 to 6, and this is 7 12. And no one has had any touch points. Like, I didn't have any touch points at all when I went through my educational journey with college.
- [47:07]
A
I'll add this. Although I have a doctorate in this, K through 16, whatever, blah, blah, blah. I was net. We never were introduced to the history, the. How it evolved, how it became, how it became an education system that I had to. I did on my own. That research I did on my own because we were setting policy, writing and things like that. But, you know, you can't see the trajectory of where we need to go. Like what you're talking about 22. Whenever you're. If you don't look back and you see the foundation. How was this? Do we need to tweak this? You know, and a lot of the policy makers and decision makers, even admins at school, they are not in the classroom dealing with these things. So then these tests, test writers, you know, that are coming up with these tests are writing these frameworks and they don't know what the teachers are dealing with. They.
- [48:09]
B
It's very disconnected.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I do, I do think that if, if we took this lens of you zoom out to zoom in, it goes back to boundaries, into this. Less is more is. You would remove all the noise, the unnecessary, the things that no longer matter. Why do we need to memorize dates? Like why some of these things don't matter for every kid. Let's just really focus on the things that are impactful, that are propelling us forward and, and uniting us, not dividing us and not adding more labels and not putting these kids in boxes and these races here and those people, you know, populations there. It's uniting. Yeah.
- [48:52]
B
I love what you talk about unique ways. Like each home is unique. And then what happens is that produces unique kids. My favorite book. Well, I, I would say it's my favorite book. John Taylor got a. Wrote a book called the Underground History of American Education. Anyway, it's a good one. It's interesting.
- [49:10]
A
Hey, people, I'm about to write this one down.
- [49:13]
B
He definitely does not sugarcoat anything. Like, he says exactly, exactly what he thinks. And yeah, your point is a good one though. Does it match? Does it match where we're at today? Like, if the history of it was in part to create factory workers.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah.
- [49:30]
B
Do we have factories for kids to work in? No. So, you know, what are the adjustments that we need to make so people can be following on your podcast? Because you're talking a lot about this. You're talking about education and alternative education methods. So I so appreciate this. It's such an honor to meet you. I loved when your camera fell. It was great.
- [49:52]
A
So I will, I will throw this one last thing in there. Yeah. Whenever. Whenever I saw you at Wild and Free 2023, and I will never forget this, you were like, hey, one of the things that I learned is if you have dyslexia and you read upside down, you know, like it comes to you easily. And I was like, this is. That was actually the. I heard of you. I heard you in person, that I even found you. And I was like, I love Jenny in her out of the box thinking, this is so cool. So I just wanted to throw that in there. You were amazing in person. You are amazing on the podcast. You're just a cool, A cool gal leading the way for us, you know.
- [50:31]
B
That comes from a woman named Dr. Carla Hannaford, who's one of my favorite. She's in her 80s. She wrote a book called Smart Moves and she wrote another. She's written a lot of books, but she wrote one that's called I always forget it because it's got a long name. But it's about how you have different learning styles based off of if you're right brained or left brained, or if you're right handed or left handed, and if you're right eared or left eared, there's like these different learning styles that you could have. It's called the dominance factor. Like what's dominant? And so she was talking about how if you are left eye dominant. So I'm left eye dominant, which means if I were to look up into a telescope, I would look through my left eye. But then this is backwards on the computer because then it shows the books like the right way. But anyway, I'm left eye dominant, so left eye dominant people naturally would read right to left. And there are languages where you do read right to left, but English is left to right. And so she said if you just flip it upside down, it's actually easier for you to read. So just all these interesting.
- [51:29]
A
Love that. So cool.
- [51:30]
B
Like that you would never know. And your kid might be struggling with this, that or the other thing, and it might just be that they are left eye dominant or it might be that they are left foot dominant or. Or whatever. The thing is. And I think the more you. I guess I never knew I needed to know that stuff.
- [51:45]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, the. The thing about information is if you don't apply, then it's just information. Like that's just knowledge. Then for what? But then if you take and you're like, I'm gonna try this. Oh my gosh, this is life changing for the kid.
- [51:59]
B
Yeah.
- [51:59]
A
Then you just. It's like the secret sauce for so many things, right? Us staying curious about our kids.
- [52:05]
B
That's so good. It's so good. So the podcast is called the Parenting IQ Podcast. A little thing that there might be a book coming in the future. That's exciting. Yes, yes. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [52:19]
A
Grandma has a farm in Brazil and with five ponds all over. And we grew up. My favorite time is when it would rain because then we would all be super muddy and find the. The worms easier to go fishing and then we'd be extra muddy and then just run and jump in our pool. And those were the sweetest memories.
- [52:41]
B
Five ponds.
- [52:43]
A
Five ponds. It was pretty cool property. Love it. I've taken my kids and it's just the magical, most magical place on earth for me.
- [52:51]
B
What a special thing too, to be able to take your kids back to a place that was so meaningful. You for.
- [52:55]
A
I'll send you a picture and you can include it in the social media.
- [52:58]
B
So meaningful for you as a kid. Thank you so much for being here. I loved learning about this and I love that you have so many other things that can help parents. The school success series, the Mom IQ crash course. Crash course collection. So talking about boundaries and consistency and time and respect. How to master ADHD at home in five weeks. Dr. Kelly Cagle, thank you so much for being here.
- [53:18]
A
It was an honor.
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B
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