← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 661: Let Kids Grow Up at the Right Pace | Jon Gustin, The Tired Dad
00:55:00
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- [00:01]
A
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A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And today I have for you the tired dad, John Gustin.
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B
Welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
- [00:44]
A
You got the coolest merch. I just want to kick it off by saying that you're wearing this hat. It says tired dad. Your wife is the tired mom. And then you. I think it's the most clever thing. Tell people about the kids shirt.
- [00:56]
B
Never. Tired kid. Yes. That, that was definitely. That was invented with. See, this whole brand was invented. After our second born, my son, who did not sleep at all through 13, 14 months, he would wake up eight, nine times a night for 13 to 14 months before he decided to sleep more than that. But he is almost six years old and he's, he's, he's going to be the kid that wakes up at 5am on Saturday, you know?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So he's going to get a lot done. I, I made those shirts, onesies for him when he was. After he was born. Never tired kid, because that's what he was. Well, he seemed like he was tired just at the wrong parts of the day.
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A
It's really so hard. It's so hard. And he was your second.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So that means you also have an older one that you're having to parent at the same time.
- [01:53]
B
Yes. And she, that's my daughter and she is, she's a little, A lot more. She beats to her own drum. So a lot of the time it's a lot of compromise with her, like letting her, you know, pick her own outfits, like, you know, have that space to be herself fully, but also like having boundaries with it as well. So. Yeah, and she sleeps like she slept through the night at six weeks and she would sleep till 10am I swear, every day. She didn't have to wake up for school.
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A
So that must have been just such a shock.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You have this first baby that sleeps and then here comes the next one and you're expecting. And then for 13 to 14 months, John, that's So long. Like when you're in month two and you're thinking, if I have to do this for one more year, I mean, you never know how long it's going to last, but that's so long. So you're encouraging parents and you have a book coming out. It'll come out next year right before Father's Day, called the Tiredad, which we'll talk about a little bit later. And then hopefully maybe in the spring you'll come back on and talk about that book. But you have a really compelling story where you've made incredible life change. So you talk about how in your past and people can find your story on your website, and then, you know, you're on the social media channels, but, you know, you have this past of drug addiction, alcohol, and even your marriage falling apart. And now you are in this spot where you're really encouraging parents to keep showing up, which I love that. I love that. Just simply keep showing up. Keep showing up. Keep trying. It's another day. I know it's hard. Can you talk about the change? I mean, change is so hard. John. I'm always incredibly impressed by someone who can go from like, basically a life that looks like one thing to a life that looks like another.
- [03:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. So growing up at a very young age, I experimented with drugs starting at the age of 13, seventh grade, and that lasted for a solid. A solid decade, a little over a decade of that. And it was. That was always at the forefront of every decision I made in life. It was always, you know, and also it was at the forefront of everything, of my struggles. So anytime anxiety or hard decisions or anything that was uncomfortable, my parents getting divorced at 14, you know, family, family situations, you know, just that uncomfortableness, you know, instead of dealing with it, I ran, I went to substances. It took it away. And I did that for over a decade. So when I was in my mid-20s, it was a very confusing time to kind of, okay, now I'm an adult. Somehow. I just. I'm an adult now and. And like, it's like a blur of the last 12 years or whatever. How do I do this? You know? So I made a lot of life changes. I didn't get sober then, but I cut out the hardcore drugs, the. The stuff that was going to be not good. Like, if I kept doing that, it wouldn't. I wouldn't have made it. You know, it was just. It was a dark road. So I met my wife when I was 27. Yeah. Right after my 27th birthday, I met her. I Moved. I moved out of. Trying to make this a short. Long story. Long story short, we got time. I moved from Southern California to Tennessee to, to just kind of start from scratch and kind of just start over. Right. I had some family friends here. My sister moved here for a little bit. So I visited here a lot. And I just, I love the vibe that it had, the scenery, everything. Just. It was a. It was a different vibe. So I did that. And I met my wife like, three months after I moved here, and we got married within 11 months after meeting each other. And she's from Ohio, so it was my first experience with, like, a Midwestern girl. And it was amazing. And, you know, we. It was a learning experience for the both of us. Again, I'm, like, trying to navigate life and this, you know, the late 20s were my hardest to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. We were talking about children, like, pretty early on because we're, you know, gonna be 30. You know, it goes so fast, and buying a house and, and just all these big decisions. I was like, where am I happy with my life, like, before I start this? Because you feel like your life has to be totally figured out before you have kids. And it's like, I'm now 40, and I still haven't figured it all out, you know, I don't think you ever really do. You figure out a lot of things about yourself, but not everything. So I, we. We did have our firstborn. I was 30, and my wife was 28, 29. So we had about three years together without kids, learning a lot about each other again. We got married pretty fast, so. But once we had our daughter, everything changed. So I explain it as, once you have kids, it's like this mirror is put up to your life, and everything you haven't dealt with is right there. And you're either gonna deal with it or you're not. And, you know, those are two different. There's a fork in the road there with two of those decisions.
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A
Yeah.
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B
There was a lot about postpartum didn't know about. Actually didn't know anything about it. Our family was just brushed it off. Like, oh, yeah, they're the baby blues. Like, we all deal with. It's no big deal, you know? Yeah, it was a big deal. And just navigating that. Navigating. No sleep. Navigating. Oh, my gosh, we're responsible for a human being now. It was a lot. So I did what I always do, and, you know, I, I, I drank at night, like, every night, just to caught. Because at night is like when everything comes up, you know, in your mind, regardless of where you're at in your life. It's like. Seems like, oh, I had a great day. And then all of a sudden, why am I starting to think like that right before I go to bed? So there was a lot of stuff we weren't dealing with in those first couple years after my daughter was born. It was an amazing experience. When my daughter was born, it changed both me and my wife. It's just our marriage. We weren't working on the stuff that we should. And again, it's just stuff we didn't deal with the three years before kids that came up, and we didn't know how to deal with it. And then we had our second born, my son, right before COVID So it was end of 2019. And then during COVID that was stressful. We now have two kids. So drinking was an answer to all that anxiety and worry. And it was about 2021 or so that I was like, something needs to change. You know, me and my wife looked at each other. I knew we weren't in a great place. We. We loved our new life with children. We loved it. And we knew we weren't becoming what we needed to be for them. You know, we just. There was stuff we weren't dealing with, so we started dealing with it. And a lot of it was just ego and pride and also running and not communicating. So once we started communicating, killing our egos, admitting our wrongs, apologizing and really wanting to make that progress, it got exponentially better. And then I stopped drinking completely. January 2nd of 2023, it was off and on battle 2021 to that date, it would go two months, three months. I was like, okay, I could stop drinking for three months. I don't have a problem. And then I'd make up for lost time when I started again. So I was like, I've never had a good relationship with alcohol since the first time that I tried it in eighth grade. You know, I never, never. I was the type of kid that would have a. Just a horrible experience with alcohol, throw up, gold slogger. And instead of being like, okay, I learned from that. I'd be like, well, let. Let's figure out how to not do that again. You know, not get sick. Let's. I wouldn't just stop. It was like always figuring it out. So anyways, I stopped completely. And I thought, okay, I would stop and my life would just get better and clearer. And it definitely got more clear and that was the scariest part, because now I couldn't run from anything. So. So figured out that I have anxiety. I have a lot of anxiety. And I had my first panic attack, you know, and, you know, I thought my life was supposed to get better. I had these intrusive thoughts. It was really, really hard that first year. It was just so hard. There's so much going through my mind. And then it started to get better as time went on, because I started to learn how to deal with everything, you know, it was like I was being exposed to it finally, you know, for. You think I was 36 and was I 36, 37, when I stopped completely. You know, I had my first drink when I was 14, started using substances when I was 13. That's a long time to develop as a human and run from all your problems and mask everything, right?
- [12:06]
A
Yeah.
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B
So it just came flooding in and it was a lot. It was a lot to deal with. But, yeah, being on the other side of it now and being so much better, I understand it now. I understand myself so much more. I'm so much. I wouldn't say I wasn't ever present with my kids because I was. We were always there. You know, it's just that nighttime, you know, it was always drinking at night and then sometimes not having that energy in the morning. Like, I'll never regret waking up and feeling good, you know, not hungover or anything. So it's just little things like that. And then just knowing so much more about myself and learning. It was. It was such a scary experience. But, gosh, you're so much stronger on the other side of it. So.
- [13:04]
A
Wow, John, what a message of hope. What a message of hope that you can make such significant changes. It's interesting. I interviewed this man, his name's Jake Whitman, and he had a similar story to yours in this, like, because the ages were similar when he was exposed to alcohol. So he. He had talked about how when he was. I think it was in the seventh grade, the 13, he had gone camping. Now his parents were divorced, so he gone camping with his dad in that side of the family. And his mom didn't know, but they let him drink at the campground and he got drunk and everyone's just kind of like, oh, whatever, not that big of a deal. But that completely changed the trajectory of his whole life. It was like something that he really began to seek out and then something he struggled with into his 20s and trying to figure out how to deal with that. And I. I want to relate it to A little bit down the road here to screens, because I think in some ways screens allow us to run and mask. But can you talk about. I mean, 13 middle school is so young, John. You know, and it's. So. It's such a pivotal time where you. You see these stories and like, it's just exposure. It's exposure to that and and is. Had the child not been exposed, the life trajectory could have been fairly different. So can you talk about how does it even happen? You know, it's like I grew up in, like, this era of, you know, DARE or something.
- [14:31]
B
Yeah, DARE to.
- [14:32]
A
To keep kids off drugs or something. Yeah, it was like an acronym and like, you know, there's all this information out there, and yet it's still happening. So what should parents be on the lookout for?
- [14:46]
B
Oh, well, today's age, it's. With the screens and everything, it's. I couldn't imagine where I would have been if I was in seventh grade right now or even 10 years ago. Not to mention the dangers of drugs now. We. We didn't have to deal with those dangers. You know, we. I never heard of anything being laced or, you know, our. Our biggest dangers was that whole ecstasy phase where they were like, doing ecstasy and drinking alcohol can cause. Can cause that overdose, you know. Do you remember that time at all? It was like late, kind of late 90s, early 2000s. It was like the new party drug. Right. That was the biggest danger I even heard of, you know, is. Is, gosh, what an interesting you people. Like, it wasn't like. Like it is now where people are dropping dead from, like, one hit of fentanyl or something. This was a rare thing to even happen, but it was a danger. That's all I remember. And also the exposure to things that these kids can get on screen so easily now. I would have dove right in because I found ways to be exposed to bad things without a phone. I didn't get my first phone TILL I was 18 years old in 2004. So this is. We're growing up off of landlines. DVDs, CDs, cassette tapes. This is all I have. Right. And I still found trouble. So I want to say that is, yes, kids can be exposed to things more easily now. But back then I was still doing. Which would be considered really bad things to a kid today, you know, And I want to say it just comes down to the intentionality of the parent to be aware. So I had older brother, older sister, eight years older than me. So, you know, they had, you know, I was exposed to older kids, right, that were in high school and graduated. And I thought they were the coolest people ever. But what it was is like I had a TV in my room and it wasn't regulated right. My parents, I guess I was like a latchkey kid. I didn't actually go to latchkey, but I was always home alone when I got home from school. I was walking home from school in third grade because we lived about a mile from the elementary school. So I would skateboard to school, skateboard home because my parents worked a 9 to 5 and I got home at what like 2:30 or something. So I would be home, my older brother or sister would come home. But sometimes they would leave. You know, they're in high school, they're older, they got friends to go see. So it just, I had so much opportunity to get into trouble. And there was also a lot going on with my family. My parents marriage was complet complete mess pretty much since I was born. So there was always issues there within the family dynamic and it was never a conscious thing in my mind that that that was why I was doing stuff. But it's just I had opportunity, you know. Yeah.
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A
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- [20:52]
B
And I relate it to today we just have to be intentional in just a different way. So first thing I even wrote about it where today's intentionality as a parent has very heavy on when you get your child a phone. So that's a huge thing. Just at what age are we going to get them a phone? We kind of know. We sh. We should know as parents that a 10 year old should not have social media or a phone.
- [21:25]
A
Right?
- [21:27]
B
They just shouldn't. I. I don't see how that's ever a good idea. You know, I heard a good thing that said whenever they can buy it themselves is a good age. But like you said, it's the same addictive properties as drugs and alcohol, even in adults. Adults have the same problem. And our intentionality as a parent is how we manage our screen time too, you know, because they're seeing us in our phones and they're like, why can't I go on my iPad again? Like, you're on your phone.
- [21:59]
A
Yeah.
- [22:00]
B
So it's just on a current. On an encouraging note, times are scary. Times are different. However, the intentionality should be the same. Pay attention to what your kid is doing. Pay attention to their friend group. Pay attention to them. Communicate with them. Always encourage, obviously, activities. Encourage creativity. Encourage reading. I think reading is so important. Young kids read when they're small. Before they can read, have them read. Once they can read it, like, give them a reward. You know, I. I reward my daughter with money, like a chore for reading. Because I'm like, yeah, she's not old. She's eight years old. But she's such a. In love with reading. She loves it. So, you know, I pay her a dollar for this book, $5 for this book. If it's over her grade level, you know, it's a little more, and she can have that as her allowance, you know, so anything you do to just encourage that. Courage, creative play. Obviously, I love what you're doing with the outside and exploring in nature, but I think the harsh reality is that screens make it easier for parents to do what they want to do. Right. And in. Back in the day, in the 90s, it was easier for parents just to have their kids be home alone, you know?
- [23:34]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so it's the same. You know, it's how we approach. This is the same. No matter what's happening in the world, you can. You always have the choice to be an intentional parent. You always have the choice to communicate with your kids and to do whatever you want with your family. You don't have to follow the trends and, oh, well, every other kid has a phone. What am I supposed to do, not get a phone? That's your. That's. It's your home. It's your. You are creating your own home. So however you want to explain to your children that do that. But the intentionality is the same as it was 20 years ago. It's just. It's just on a different. It's just something different. You know, before it was dare, and now it's like dare, whatever. To keep kids off of screens.
- [24:30]
A
Right, right, right. Well, because it's another addictive and it's. It's an addict it's an addiction. Well, this Jake that I talked to was like, first of all, alcohol addiction is almost celebrated. You know, they're like, oh, you're funnier when you're drunk. Like, no one really cares. Drug addiction is different. But screen addiction in particular, like you said, everyone's on a phone. So it doesn't even stand out as something societally that someone should be like, hey, you probably shouldn't do that. But your story just brings up such an amazing reminder that early exposure to things can have detrimental effects for a long time. 10 years, 12 years. And then to try and pull yourself out of that. And because the screen addiction is similar to drug addiction, where it's lighting up similar parts of the brain, it's just a reminder to. Especially to pay attention with young kids. Like, how early are they getting that? I didn't drink. My mom always was like. Cause I had a grandpa that was like a drunk kind of. And she was like, it's hereditary. I don't even know if this is true or not, John, but this is what my mom would tell me. She would be like, it's hereditary. You know, you possibly, if you had one drink, you might become a drunk. You know, you might. Or you might become addicted. So my mom always said that. And I was like, I thought, whatever.
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B
So I didn't.
- [25:48]
A
So I didn't have any. You know, I didn't have any. Yeah, I didn't drink when I was young, and I didn't actually have any drinks until I was 25. The first time I had a drink. I was 25, married, you know, and people were always like, you've never had anything? Like, no, I've never had anything. So it was. We went on a double date with, like, our church friends. They were like, why don't you try this alcohol thing? And I didn't like it. I thought it tasted bad. It's got a lot of calories. I. I don't. I. You know, it just makes me feel a little out of control. So it's. In some ways, it's similar to the screen addiction, where people are like, well, if you don't let them have screens until they're 17, then they're going to be addicted. And I don't think that's the case because you're not used to it. But there are those really pivotal years. You know, you're talking about middle school, 13, 14. And the longer you wait, I think the less chance. I mean, even still, the screens are so addictive. They're addictive for adults. Too, but the less chance that they're really going to fall into that. And that's one of a big thing that you talk about. You talk just a lot about modern parenting, which includes screens. You talk about being a screen conscious family. Can you encourage the mom or dad who's listening that screens keep things clean? You know, it's one little tablet and they're not making a mess. But you talk about that, the mess, the mess really is where it's at. That's like where the beauty of family life is.
- [27:08]
B
Yeah. And that. And, and that's what I'm, I'm saying like the screens can make things easier. It makes less messes. It makes them, you know, it keeps them busy. So you can do your emails or, you know, as somebody who works from home, when my kids weren't in school, you know, it made it easier, you know, to, to get them to keep busy. And now being screen conscious and being no screens, I think it's kind of like when computers came out. It's like, I'm not getting a family computer. You know, that's a laughable joke. Now. I, I think, you know, screens, we, we can't just. That's the problem with today is that it's this or that. Right. So it's these blanket statements and it's the lack of conversation. We, we can't have conversations. We just have these blanket statements. You're either for this or that. It's like very black and white.
- [28:05]
A
Right.
- [28:06]
B
So, so screens is the same way. It's not, it's not like, okay, if you're, if you encourage your kids to be in nature and to explore and be creative, then you can't have screens. Well, no, you can have both. It's just a limited, like not getting your kid a phone at 10 is not, that's not, no screens. That's not having them have an access to things that just, they should never. In that developmental period. It's like, why is the drinking age 21? Well, because a 15 year old is developing and will get plaster drunk and drive a car or something stupid. Because they're 15 years old. That's why the drinking age is 21. They're a little bit older. Right. Which is why a phone should be normal at 18.
- [28:54]
A
Yes.
- [28:54]
B
You know, if you can't smoke, then you shouldn't be on your phone. You know, you don't, you're not going to know how to balance that. It's those pivotal years. But are all, Is everything on a screen bad? No, there's tons of parental controls, there's learning apps, there's, you know, there's games that could be good for them. You know, there are some things, it's just conscious of what that is. Right. Just like how we were with TVs growing up. It's like I was watching Beavis and Butthead at 10 years old. Probably shouldn't have done that, but does that mean I shouldn't have watched TV at all? No, I just shouldn't have been watching that. Right. It should have been controlled there.
- [29:32]
A
Yep. No one's paying. No one's paying attention.
- [29:34]
B
Yeah. So it's not about no screens versus screens. It's just the intentionality of screens. Right. It's intentionality of when you get your kid a phone, how much screen time they're having. I, I saw a statistic and people are like, how is this even possible if they're going to school seven to nine hours a day?
- [29:53]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [29:54]
B
It is the seven to nine hours a day. And then you do the math. Well, you're like, okay, well a 15 year old that goes to high school comes home at, let's just say 4 o' clock at the latest, right? Yep, 4 o'. Clock. They high school student probably goes to bed about 10:30, 11, right. So right there, that's seven hours. So when, if they weren't on their phone at school, they're gonna be on their phone from 4 o' clock to 11 o'. Clock. Right. And then on the weekend. On the weekend, somebody I know got their screen time back from their kid. They were at somebody's house and 12 hours, 12 hours per day was the screen time on a Saturday and Sunday, 12 hours. So it's possible and it's happening. And that's not being screen conscious. That's what's damaging these kids, that's what's bad for their brain.
- [30:50]
A
Yep.
- [30:51]
B
Not an average of one to two hours. And that's even per day is at the very low end. So if you're at one to two hours a day, you're at a super low end. And then if we have no screen days, you know, a lot of them, I, I think they're allowed on their iPads like a couple hours, two times a week maybe. So they're maybe four hours a week or something. But I'm just blown away as how 12 hours, what the heck are you doing? And you know, that's the conversation we need to have. It's not, we don't have to be like, are you for screens or against screens? You know?
- [31:28]
A
Yeah, we're for paying attention.
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B
Yeah. Paying attention with everything, with all areas and, and screens are a huge part of that area. Because it's the biggest problem, right?
- [31:39]
A
Yeah.
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B
It's an epidemic, you know.
- [31:41]
A
It is, it is. You say it's killing their childhood. Killing.
- [31:44]
B
It is in. I notice I'm very observant with older kids and I'm. And I'm watching and I'm always talking to parents and I'm watching because I love to learn from older parents and to also to just observe with my own eyes. I don't care what the Internet is saying. I don't care even what statistics are saying. I'm gonna just pay attention right to what's going on in the actual world around me. And I see it. I see the girls that are 12 years old with phones and I see the ones that don't have phones. It is so different. So different. It's like they're seven years apart.
- [32:27]
A
It's like you could say the same thing about drugs and alcohol. You know, if it were more pervasive, it would be like, well, you can tell the 12 year olds that drink versus the 12 year olds that don't drink or the 14 year olds that are doing drugs versus the 14 year olds that aren't doing drugs. It really matters in age of exposure matters so much. And so if you pay attention, you've got to keep paying attention. That's like your whole thing. Keep showing up, keep paying attention. And I loved you this video so just so, such a good reminder of. I think we look at our home. You've got, you know, if you've got kids and there's like, I'm looking right now, I've got like my bookshelf. But on the other side, you're in a really cool looking room. On the other side, our youngest daughter has a little kid's table and it's just covered. There's a robot on it, like with all these gears. And then there's all these books and pencils and paper. And you did this beautiful video of kind of walking through a home and like, oh, it's a mess. You know, everyone's like, oh, it's such a mess. These kids make such a mess. But you reframe it to be like, actually it's a dollhouse with a whole scene that was imagined. Can you talk about just reframing and looking at the messes that children make as something that's beautiful and not something that's annoying?
- [33:40]
B
Oh yeah, it's. It's Funny, because my kitchen table is a mess. It has papers everywhere. My son is into drawing, like super into drawing all of a sudden, so we're just letting him go crazy. And he just. The characters. And my daughter did it too. She draw these little characters and name them and she just, she's so creative with her friend. She has like this little best friend and they create these dolls. There's these dolls called Yummy Land dolls. They're. They're a popular toy and they've created their own Yummy Land dolls. And they drew out literally 70 characters. Like it was, it took them weeks upon weeks. And they were up there for hours, Hours. And I went up there one day and it was, it was blown to smithereens. Like, there's papers, cutouts, there was dolls everywhere. And I'm like, what's going on? You need to clean up. You know, like, can you, can you clean up? And she's like, no, we're in the middle of a project. And I just, me and my wife had a conversation about it and my wife stepped back and was like, listen, when was the last time she was on her iPad? She's never on her iPad with this friend. And I was like, I don't even know. I don't remember. She goes it, we can have this, we can have this mess and, and look at all this creativity. Or we can let her on her iPad a lot like some other kids at her age. And she can be into all the. Nothing bad with this, but I'm just saying she can be into all the makeup, she can be into all the clothes, she can be into all those dances, she can be just there. There's some things where I don't think an 8 year old should be concerned with.
- [35:36]
A
Yes, right, Absolutely.
- [35:37]
B
There's just things that an 8 shouldn't be concerned with.
- [35:41]
A
Yep.
- [35:42]
B
And this is such innocent play. And it's not forever. Like there will be a time. She's definitely wants me to take her to Sephora and that's her favorite place. But right now it's still toy stores, it's still Target, it's still. She's creative. She wants to go to the bookstore, all this stuff. And I just want to, you know, keep that in a, like bottled up. And I think it's letting them grow up at the pace they're supposed to. And that's the problem with the screens and the phones. They're not growing up at the pace they, they're supposed to. So the messes are. Should be embraced. It's. It's a sign that your kid is growing up at a normal pace. And it can be overwhelming at times. But, you know, and we do have days where, okay, you got to clean up your room now, you know, or you know, to teach them responsibility. It's not like, again, it's not this or that. Oh, you allow messes. So my house is going to always be messy. No, like our house. We clean up our house like I have, you know, I clean up. If something's bothering me and not my wife, I'll clean it up. You know, it's not a big deal. If their room gets too messy or there's stuff everywhere, they got to clean it up. So it's again, a balance. It's not this or that. So, yeah, it's just so. It makes me feel so good when I see that their creativity and I just feel like you're just preserving their childhood and also just. It's so great for their brain development. Right? It's just, it's beautiful.
- [37:22]
A
So, yeah, I mean, seriously, think about how imaginative that is to come up with 70 characters and then the hand eye coordination and their drawing and so to look at the message as something that's facilitating, obviously, like you can clean it up later, but it's facilitating growth. And you say, screens don't make messes, childhood does. There's this man named Neil Postman who wrote these books. Like there's one called Technopoly and one called Amusing Ourselves to Death. They're from the 80s, John. So he, he's no longer living, but he was like this futurist kind of and really talking about the philosophy of screens. And one of the things he talked about was that screens. And when he brought up Beavis and Butthead, I thought this was a good example. He was like, screens allow children to step into an adult world or an older world earlier. Because it used to be that the only way that you could maybe step into an adult world or learn adult things is by overhearing conversation, reading an adult book or listening to the radio, maybe something like that. But it's like that's. That's not really something that would draw a kid in. You know, like they're going to be in bed, they're not hearing the adult conversation. They can't read very well, so they're not reading about these things. But that TV and screens almost leveled the playing field. And it was the beginning of allowing kids to be exposed in mass to concepts that were too old for them. And so then if it goes from television to a phone in your pocket and a phone that has all these algorithms that are meant to suck you in. You can just see how detrimental it is for childhood. It's killing it. So you really have a lot of amazing information about being a screen conscious family. I'm imagining that's going to be part of your book that's coming out next year.
- [39:01]
B
Yeah, part of it, yeah. It's about everything. All of it. Yeah.
- [39:06]
A
A hundred reflections, you said, but I think. But I would imagine screens get at least a part of it.
- [39:10]
B
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Because it's. I mean, it's the world we're living in.
- [39:15]
A
Yep. Raising kids in a scary digital age.
- [39:17]
B
Okay.
- [39:18]
A
Talk about your family walks. That's going to be really applicable to this audience. We're trying to get outside use a family walk to solve most of our temporary stressors.
- [39:26]
B
Yes, my, my wife has always said that, and it's so true because, you know, when we were going through our stuff in, in marriage and even before kids, we would do that and it would just make things better. So we brought that into once our children were born. And now, you know, now they can both walk with us, obviously, and explore. And it's a great time to just reconnect and, and to get out there and just. It's just. I don't know, when we get back. Every time we're in a better mood, the kids are in a better mood. It's just, it's a great reset. And it doesn't have to be long. It could be 10, 15 minutes for the first time. I was going on a run the other night. This happened three nights ago, and I, I just wanted to go on a run by myself. Just a couple miles. And my kids were at home. They were doing something, drawing and staying busy. And my son's like, I want to go with you. He's fine. He's almost six. And I'm like, buddy, I don't. I'm. I kind of wanted to go on a run by myself or whatever. Anyways, he went, he went with me. We didn't go far. Went like maybe half a mile, though. And he ran with me and I posted all my stories. I just had to get the moment. He said, wow, this is so much fun. He's like, I've never been on a run before. This is so much fun. And I'm like, I mean, we run around all the time. But it was something about him being involved with what I wanted to do and something that I'm doing that just made his world right. It just, he he's so. He's like my little shadow right now. Like, if I mow the lawn, he gets his fake lawnmower out, or he wants me to teach him how to mow a lawn, or he just. If I'm building something or putting something together, he wants to be involved. And it's just so awesome. And even though I wanted to go on a run by myself and like, reset my own brain and stuff, it was just such a meaningful moment to bring him along with me and to involve your kids, like, that is so important. You know, I always say kids are terrible listeners, but they're great imitators. And, you know, they're watching what we do. And, you know, a perfect example of that is, no, you can't be on your iPad, but I'm going to be on my phone, you know. Now there are some instances you can explain what's going on if you're answering an email or whatever, but they're watching you and they're. And they're going, this doesn't make sense. Like why, you know. But yeah, it was just so cool that he went with me and wanted to go with me and work out and do something that's active and they'll.
- [42:12]
A
Just become more and more like that. I love that. Because your family walks were something you'd already established. It was something that you already doing. You're already doing. And then they join in, the kids join in and all these other things. You're building something, you're out for a run, you're mowing the lawn, and then as they get, you know, to the right ages, then they can just join in on what you're doing. It's hands on real life living. And that's really encouraging. And I love that this says family walks off most of our temporary stressors because that's what you were using alcohol for, using that to solve temporary stressors and that there are these other things that you can use that have a lot of other health benefits as well. So all of these things are going to be, I'm sure, a big part of your book that's coming out just Helping with Fathers that's coming out next year. Talk to us about your podcast.
- [42:59]
B
Yeah, me and my wife do it from time to time as much as we can. And it's just mostly about just again, it's like reflective. Like the thing with my stuff is I never, whether or not people take it like this or not, I never want to be a know it all. I. Because I feel like parenting is such a personal Journey. Kids are so different. Every kid is different.
- [43:27]
A
Yeah.
- [43:28]
B
And I. I just want to be. I want to help people by being reflective of my own journey. And if you relate, then you relate. You know, the stuff about marriage, it's like what I feel is important in marriage, my goals in marriage and all that is not everybody's goal or anybody situate. Everybody's situation is different. So we come at it as just our personal journeys, as our personal reflections. So that's really what the podcast is, is just me and my wife getting vulnerable with what went on that week or what went on that month or new discoveries. And just also, obviously our story and how we got through the tough times and how we're in a great place now.
- [44:16]
A
So much hope. It's so much hope. You say that your wife. You and your wife have seen a lot of divorce, a lot of failed marriages, and you've been through a lot together. This is interesting. I didn't actually know this. You say nearly 70% of divorces are initiated by women.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
As we're wrapping up here, can you just give a little bit of the marital advice? Some of it that you share, especially because you talk about you come from a divorce situation. And then, you know, the early years of marriage, you got married quick. You know, the early years of marriage are tricky. And then you add kids onto it. You're not sleeping. You got postpartum. It's a lot to hold. And often it looks like the women feel like maybe they're doing it alone, or I feel like we're roommates, and there's just this lack of connection.
- [44:59]
B
Yeah, it. It really comes down to communication. Communication is like, number one, and not just communication, but effective communication. Right. So that real, deep, vulnerable communication. I think, as we know statistically and from my own experience, that men hold a lot in, so there they can brush things off, I think, easier than women. So I think the communication lacks because the men aren't. They're just going, yeah, okay, fine, I'll fix that. I'll do what you say, or whatever. And then they can build resentment of, like, okay, I'm doing this, and she's not doing that. And then it becomes this. It starts to become this battle with each other. Right. And it's because the men aren't really expressing, hey, you know, this is what I'm going through. This is why I haven't done this. Or, you know, everybody has their own eyes when it comes to the house. So if something is left on a counter, for example, I may not see it. My wife may not see it, but I see it or my wife sees it like it's this huge thing. Right. So just being aware of how each other works, you know, and then also take it serious when somebody brings up something that means a lot to them. Right. Don't just brush it off or. Okay, yeah, I'll try, I'll try to do better or whatever because it just builds up over time. It comes to the surface eventually. So it's really about that communication. I know life gets busy and everything, but just at the end of the day, if you could just have that kind of marriage meeting after the kids go to bed, you know, anything of just, hey, what's going on? You know, so it, that's. That's huge. And again, being knowledgeable about things like postpartum, if you're having your firstborn and, and knowing that I took it as kind of a, that it was an attack on me because my wife's brain was crazy. You know, it was going crazy. Like she was just having these intrusive worries and, and it was just this anxiety and everything. So she, it was just all over the place and half of it, she doesn't even remember because I guess when you're that stressed out and your hormones are that crazy, it's like shuts off your short term memory. So I, and also I was trying to fix it and make it better, but there's no fixing it. It just. I needed to do these things and not make it about me or whatever it. And I love that there's that trend or that video where it's, it shows like one partner is at 91, partners at 10, and it's never really 50. 50. And there are days you're gonna have to make up for the other partner. Yeah. And vice versa. So that's important too. Ego and pride have no business in marriage. You know, when it starts to become like, I've done all of this and you've done nothing, that's. Yeah, you need to reset and figure that out.
- [48:15]
A
Yeah. It's really good advice. Really good advice. It's almost like, you know, you, you talked about, you know, you got married quick. You know, you meet, you get married. And it's almost like in those years you should be thinking, what should we be doing to help us survive when in five years from now we don't sleep for a year and a year and two months.
- [48:34]
B
Yeah.
- [48:34]
A
You know, like you, it really matters. I almost feel like those early years of marriage are, are so much more important than anybody really talks about. Because what you should be doing is, like, you know, strengthening. Like, you know, it's almost like boot camp. Like, you should be, like, working out. Like, you should be getting ready, because these kids are gonna come, and you're not gonna sleep, and you're still gonna have to try and make your marriage survive, and you're gonna be so tired, and there's so many more decisions that you're gonna have to make, and you are going to be shepherding children through a childhood. So it's like, I think it's just a reminder. Like, spend those early. We didn't. I wish we would have. You know, nobody's like, hey, guess what might be coming? You know, what might be coming is postpartum. Or what might be coming is, you know, like, the. The lack of sleep, which is what they do for prisoners, right? Like, yeah, whatever that's called. Like, when they torture people, it's like, this is coming. So be ready.
- [49:29]
B
Like torture. Yeah, Just be. Just know that it's going to change everything. Like, your. Your schedule, your life. It's not going to be the same. Like, just because you have this job doesn't mean that, you know, before you could come home and. All right, cook dinner and chill and be like, no. Like, when you come home, your job, your main job for money is just one of your jobs. And as a parent, you're taking on, like, all these other jobs, too. So when you come home from work, you're entering a new job, and that's just the reality of it. If you're thinking that your life's not going to change and you're just going to work and come home and just kind of figure it out, it's not going to be that bad. Be honest with yourself. Yo. It is going to be a lot, you know? So that way you can prepare it. Yeah.
- [50:24]
A
So use those early years. Yeah, it's like. It's about preparedness.
- [50:27]
B
Yeah.
- [50:28]
A
But he really talks about it that way. You just kind of, like, coast by, and then all of a sudden you're like, whoa. So it's good. It's a good reminder to try, if you can, to use those early years to strengthen your marriage. You talk about being curious about each other. Marriage gets harder when you stop being curious about each other. Familiarity kills connection if you're not careful. Ask better questions and start over often. So, so much. You offer so much people. I'll put all the links. People can find you everywhere. You have your own podcast. You're all over social media. You have a substack. You've got this book coming out and your website, if you want to get your kid a shirt that says never tired kid, which I think is so clever, you can find it there. John, what an honor. Such an honor to meet you. What you're doing is so encouraging to families and bring so much hope. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [51:14]
B
Oh, it would definitely be a summer night. A summer night riding my bike on the street, I think, with some neighbors. Like, just as that sun set. And it. I didn't have to be in right when the street lights came on. You know, I could stay out a little later. A lot later, sometimes. Because it was summer. Yeah. Or skateboarding or something like that. Just like that summer air, you know, that warm summer air that even when the sun went down, it was still warm outside.
- [51:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. Freedom of the bike.
- [51:59]
B
Yep, the bike.
- [52:02]
A
I just read a book where the author had a statistic that 70% of kids had bikes. Up until, like, maybe 2000, maybe even 2010, like, 70% of American kids had bikes, and now it's 9%.
- [52:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. Also, the kids there aren't. They aren't driving at 16.
- [52:28]
A
That's true.
- [52:28]
B
It's like, that's gone down, too. And it's. Is it because they just have everything that they need on their phone and the. The electronics that they don't really need to go anywhere. Like, it's, you know, they need to be social.
- [52:44]
A
It's that. And it's also that the parents are nervous. There's a new book that just came out called Let Them Fly, I think it's called by this author named Nicole Runyon. And she says, like, very clearly, your kids should be driving at 16, and if you're still driving, you, like, you shouldn't be driving them around. And they 1000% should be driving at 16, and you shouldn't be tracking them.
- [53:07]
B
Yeah. It is a big difference. It's. It's definitely a fear thing, for sure.
- [53:11]
A
Yeah.
- [53:12]
B
Yeah.
- [53:12]
A
She says, let's see. Teenagers 16 and over should not be tracked. They should be trusted. If you are a parent who doesn't feel your child can be trusted, then you have some work to do. Enables them to continue to drive them around after they are 16.
- [53:27]
B
Yeah. I got. I got some really good advice from a parent that I respect, and her kids are, like, all off to college now and known her for, like, 10 years. Me and my wife have. And some of the best advice she gave us was to have a family meeting night every single week. So just to have a meeting. What's going on, the plan for the week, just everything. Just air it all out. Like kind of like a family therapy session, but just to. And I think that just like in marriage, communication is number one effective communication. Same with your kids. Your kids should feel safe. Your kids. If you're constantly worried about your kids and you don't trust them, then there's probably communication that's off. Just like as in marriage, if the communication was off and you don't trust your spouse, there's something off. Right? Yeah. So just having you be that safe space and, and they can come to you no matter what and they can ask you whatever they want. Because if, if you're not that safe space, they'll find somebody else to be that safe space and it probably won't be somebody qualified.
- [54:34]
A
That's such good advice. And the trust starts building over the years. So it's like they're going to turn 16 and you have to flip a switch. You should be all along the way.
- [54:43]
B
Yep, exactly. To trust each other basically their whole life.
- [54:47]
A
And I love, I just love that you're always looking at, looking out like, oh, I really like how this family's doing it. I really like how these kids turn out and vice versa, you know, to help to inform your own parenting. It's wise. It's so wise. John, what an honor to meet you. Huge congrats on your book. I'm sure you're still working on it comes out next year and I can't wait to read it.
- [55:05]
B
Yeah, it's a labor of love for sure. I'm excited.
- [55:08]
A
Thanks for being here.
- [55:09]
B
Thank you.
- [55:11]
A
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