← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
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B
Before we begin, I want to say thank you for being here.
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C
Today is a milestone.
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B
This is episode 700 of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. That is 700 conversations with authors, researchers, explorers, doctors, thinkers, parents, and people who are trying to live well in a very complicated world. Plus a few episodes where I was slightly awkward all by myself. For episode 700, I wanted a guest whose work has impacted millions of people across the globe.
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A
And.
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B
And so James Nestor is here. Author of Breath. Three million copies sold, translated into 44 languages. This conversation connects dots almost no one is connecting. Mouth breathing, crooked teeth, snoring, adhd, anxiety, endurance, sleep quality, and why the way you breathe every minute of the day might be the missing lever in your health. At one point in this interview, James says something I often hear from guests. No one has ever asked me that before. That's part of what makes this show unique. I read each guest book from COVID to cover, and I never use the sample questions that publicists send over. That means you're getting something completely fresh, even from people who have been interviewed countless times. If you're brand new to this show, I'm so glad you're here. The 1000 Hours Outside podcast is for people who care about living well in the real world. Health, family, work, childhood, adulthood, and everything in between. And if you've been here a while, we did do two quick things that make a huge difference. First, tap follow on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so these episodes land in your feed automatically. Second, share this episode with friends and family. If you know someone who is a mouth breather, all the more reason to send it. This might nudge their health in the right direction. Every parent needs to hear what James has to say because the way kids breathe affects their sleep, focus, behavior and development. And finally, because it's episode 700, we are celebrating. We have just launched a brand new toddler shirt that says yes, I've eaten.
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C
A bug or two.
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B
We're offering this T shirt for one week at a launch price of just $10. It is absolutely adorable. All week long, the rest of our apparel will be 20% off as well. We have apparel for adults and kids. Short sleeves, long sleeves, hoodies with sayings like born to climb trees, trail kid.
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C
Out here to wander.
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B
A little dirt never hurt.
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C
And more.
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B
Honestly, it's mostly what I wear every day. Check it out at 1000hours outside.com shop. No promo code is needed. All right. Episode 700 James Nestor let's get Into it. If you're a parent, you know how hard it is to find drinks that are actually good for your kids. And honestly, for yourself too. I always read the label before I let my kids drink anything and Cure is one of those rare finds that checks every box. I've been trying Cure Hydration packs for myself when I'm traveling, or even just first thing in the morning when I know I need to drink more water. They're plant based, have no added sugar, only 25 calories, and they hydrate better than water alone. And the flavors are so good. Not overly sweet, not fake tasting. Watermelon and lemonade are my favorite. It genuinely makes drinking enough water easier, which I know so many of us struggle with. Now let's talk about Kids because this is where Cure is doing cool stuff. My kids would sometimes ask for sugary sports drinks, especially after playing outside for hours. Switching to Cure Kids Mixes changed everything. They're formulated with kids in mind, made with real ingredients, no added sugar, no artificial colors or dyes, and free from all the major allergens, from long outdoor play days to sports practices or even when they're just not great at drinking water. Cure Kids helps replace the electrolytes they lose throughout the day so they can keep doing what kids are meant to do, play, explore and be kids. Staying hydrated isn't just about water. You also need electrolytes. That's why my family loves Cure. It's clean, it tastes great, and kids actually ask for it. You can grab Cure on Amazon or find a store near you@cure hydration.com outside real ingredients, real hydration ready for the whole family.
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C
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I am beyond excited because James Nestor is here. James, welcome.
- [04:19]
D
Thanks a lot for having me.
- [04:21]
C
This book is absolutely phenomenal. I've had it for a long time and it just been I was so excited that you said yes. Three million copies sold, translated into 44 languages and I took nine pages of notes. It is a book that gives you so much hope that you can drastically improve your life with some simple things with the Lost Art of Breathing. So we're going to talk about your history. We're going to talk about the launching of the book during COVID but I want to kick it off here because we're just trying to get outside, James. Like we're trying to like leave the indoors. We're trying to get outside, get off screens. And you talk in this book about the toxic air indoors and we haven't really talked about that on this show before, so I would love to kick it off there. You're such a fantastic writer. You talk about how you're, if, if you're stuck inside too much, you are taking in someone else's breath backwards. A respiratory version of Stone Soup. So can you talk to the parent who, you know, it's hard to get outside? We're in, we're in Michigan. It's the middle of the winter, it's freezing. You know, it's so much easier to stay indoors. Or if it's, you're listening to this and it's the middle of the summer in Arizona, it's so much easier to stay indoors. But getting outdoors helps us with toxic air.
- [05:38]
D
Yeah, well, you know, I don't mean to become such a bummer so early in this podcast. You seem so happy and full of energy. But I'm going to talk about some depressing things. The good thing is once you know these depressing facts, you can fix them and you can improve the quality of your life, your kid's life, of your mother in law's life, of everyone around you. So this was something that I learned actually after the book came out. This book has been out for a number of years and I was able to go around and, you know, do these lectures at schools and universities, different corporations. And I met a bunch of very interesting people who had a bunch of knowledge about breathing and air that I was not aware of. And one of the things they told me was that so many of us are conscious that the CO2 levels are going up in the outside environment, which is true. Right. Today it's 423 parts per million. A hundred years ago, you know, it was 200 something parts per million. So it's going up. But one thing very few people seem to be talking about is the levels of carbon dioxide in indoor environments. Environments and how deleterious that is to your health, to your mental health, your physical health and more.
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C
Yes. Okay, so these are high levels. So you talk about that. If the carbon dioxide level is at 1500 parts per million, that means that 1 in every 40 breaths you inhale is someone else's exhalation. So then you talk about school. You're like, this is going to affect your focus. So we're talking about our kids, you know, the typical Classroom is twice as high as the outside air, if not more. 800 to 1500 parts per million. This is offices, hotels, airports, airplanes, restaurants, buses, libraries, and more. You say we spend 90% of our lives inside, and then you talk about how hotels. Can you even add on that for hotels? It's recycled air because that's cheaper than bringing in the outside air.
- [07:41]
D
Yeah. So the problem with so many schools today is the levels can be up to around 2,2500 parts per million. So this is so much higher than our bodies are accustomed to taking in this level of CO2. And dozens and dozens of scientific studies have shown that when you are in an environment with this level of CO2 in the air, it significantly affects your ability to think. So one study done at Harvard found that 1500 parts per million, just 1500 parts per million, showed a 55.0percent decrease in cognitive tasks. So if you imagine your kid is in a classroom for eight hours a day of 2500 parts of the mind, which has been associated with headaches, which has been associated with higher blood pressure, all these physical problems and all these mental problems, we're asking kids to do their best, but we're not putting them in an environment that is conducive to that. And in Michigan, a school got a CO2 monitor, and they found that their levels were north of 2000 parts per million all day long because the school never bothered to update its H vac system.
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A
Wow.
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C
Wow. So you recommend, at the very least, cracking windows. Crack a window while you sleep. You know, you can't do that at a hotel usually. So you, as much as you can, if you're a teacher listening in, crack the windows in your classroom. Because we don't want to be breathing in other people's exhalations. So talking about kids. You talk a ton about kids in this book. I'm so glad you're here. Our story is that we had one child that when her teeth came in, she had an underbite. And so at a pretty young age, we had to go down this path to correct that. And we learned about this thing called orthotropics, which none of my friends knew about. Like, nobody knew I didn't know about it. And we started at really young ages with this forward jaw growth appliance. And you have tons of information about this concept in your book Breath, it is imperative. Is imperative for parents to read because this is like starting really in infancy with. In other cultures, they are very cognizant of making sure that kids are breathing through their Mouths that they are closing. They're actually closing the kids lips. Like after they nurse in the middle of the night, they're closing the kids lips while the baby's lips while they're napping. Nursing extended breastfeeding can help with this forward jaw growth and making sure that there's enough room for the teeth. But we're so focused on orthodontics and straight smiles. This is so much deeper. This is about making sure that you have enough airway. So you give a story in this book and it's so well done because at the end you're like, this is my story and you're not expecting it. But you know, we have this. We're bottle fed, we're using pacifiers, we're switching to soft baby foods at six months and then we are extracting teeth and or using braces. That's making small mouse even smaller. Can you talk about the long term ramifications of this?
- [10:55]
D
Sure, I'll talk about that. But I want to go back to CO2 a little bit more and provide some actual bullet point things that people can do to help mitigate this issue. This is a very major issue. It's affecting so many people all over the planet right now, and especially in the U.S. so what has happened with so many new schools, especially new construction, new hotels, new conference centers, is they glued up all the windows. Because by gluing up the windows, they can save on heating and cooling costs. But what they do instead is they recycle all that air around over and over and over. And I can prove this because me and a small army of people have been cruising around with CO2 monitors and, and showing just how bad it is. And some hotels, every 20 breaths you're breathing in is someone else's exhalation. So one thing that parents can do is you can buy these CO2 monitors, they're very cheap on Amazon or whatever, for 30 bucks, and bring them into your kid's school and make them aware of this. Sometimes the fix is easy. If there are windows in the school, then you require them to keep them open and turn the heat up a little bit, a little bit more and watch the CO2 levels. And if the teachers aren't on board with this, then you go to the superintendent and you have them pay it, pay attention to this because this is not some crazy conspiracy theory there. For dozens and dozens of decades, researchers all over the world were recording this and showing the damage of it. So I travel a lot for my job and these hotels are a catastrophe. And you Wonder why you feel so crappy when you wake up in the morning. So this is something I'm trying to bring awareness to. And I think the more people that start talking about it, the more we're going to elicit some change to go back to getting fresh air the way we were having before all of this crazy industrialization. And right now, we're going to be putting out a database of all of the data that we've collected over three years that's going to be available for free everywhere. And we're trying to get schools on board with this as well. So moving on to. From CO2, putting a little cap on that.
- [13:08]
C
Stick with it for one more second, because I want to read what you wrote. First of all, the CO2 monitor is the size of a pack of playing cards. This is a small thing. We've actually done a similar thing with Lux. You can get a lux meter and measure the amount of light. And it's very similar where you think, oh, I can see fine indoors. But as soon as you step outdoors, the numbers jump thousands. And so that's really affecting your physical health.
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B
So this is the size of a.
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C
Pack of playing cards. And here's what you wrote. There is no way a student can focus and perform at the top of her potential breathing in this kind of air five days a week. So to your point, this is incredibly important. All right, that's it. Okay, moving on to the forward jaw growth situation.
- [13:50]
D
So one of the first things I discovered when I was researching this is why have humans become such poor breathers, especially kids? Right around 50% of kids are mouth breathers. And it didn't used to be that way. So the question is, why? How did this happen? And it turns out that our ancestors, our ancient ancestors, were great breathers. And we know that because we can look at their skulls. Did you know that our ancient ancestors all had perfectly straight teeth? And they had straight teeth because their mouths were enormous. And with a larger mouth, you have a larger airway. And the reason why 90% of us, 9, 0% of us have some sort of crookedness in our teeth has nothing to do with teeth, has to do with our mouths growing smaller and smaller and smaller. Smaller mouth teeth have to fight for room, so they grow on crooked. Smaller mouth equals smaller airway, which leads to breathing problems. So the next question is, how did that happen? Why are humans the only mammals on the planet that are growing consistently smaller and smaller mouths in such a short amount of time, just over a few hundred years? And the answer is food the answer is the consistency of food when you are young, especially so in those early years of very fast development, it is essential to have kids chewing, chewing real food. There's a movement, I'm sure you're familiar with it, called baby led weaning, where kids are weaned from the breast onto. I'm sure you've probably had some experts on it who know a lot more about it than I do, but this is how we were evolved to be. And when you are chewing, you develop the proper skeleture and musculature and the proper airway so that you can breathe later on in life. And that's one of the main reasons why so many kids today, so many are suffering from chronic breathing issues because of that small mouth.
- [15:56]
C
And this is affecting their nighttime sleep as well. And then that is associated with ADHD symptoms and a lot of things. I mean, when you talk about what this can affect, I mean it's everything from anxiety to school performance to bedwetting. I mean, there are so many things that this affects. And once again, the number is 9, 0 90% of children have acquired some degree of deformity in their mouths and, and nose. That's why this book is pertinent for parents to read, because you're going to learn all about this. All modern skulls show some degree of crooked teeth. What's so interesting to me, James, and you talk about this quite a bit in the book. This is an a lost art. So you go through so many scenarios where you say someone came out with the information and then either they were sort of scorned out of the room or just got forgotten and dropped and then it got brought back up again. So these retainer appliances that guide the jaw forward, our kids did one and are even. We have a kid doing it now.
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B
It's called Orthotropics.
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C
There's a company called Toothpillow that does it. And you talk in the book about Bioblock and I remember when we were researching the different ones reading about it, but Bioblock is sort of this continuation of one called Monoblock that was out in 1859. You're kind of like shocked because it all seems so new. Like in my group of friends, no one is talking about this, James, like no one is talking about doing anything different. But your typical orthodontics, maybe an expander, but that only is, is possibly doing the top. It's not pulling the bottom jaw forward. So can you talk about how this, these things, all the concepts in the book that you go through, they've been around for hundreds of years, thousands of years. This is not new.
- [17:40]
D
Sure, I'd love to talk about that. As long as you promise we can talk more about adhd. So I can talk about ADHD now? Or if you want to save that for later, we can talk about that later. You tell me.
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C
I'll make a note.
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D
Works best.
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C
I'll make a note. We'll talk about it in just a week.
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D
We have to talk about that. Because I've been trying to get the word out about this because I'm tired of getting hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters from angry parents. Like, I am so tired of hearing the same story from the same parents with the same kids suffering from the same problems.
- [18:13]
C
All right, well, just go for it. Because we can always come back to the fact that this stuff. I mean, that's basically it. This is not new information. This has been around. People have been studying it for so long. The monoblock has been around since 1859. So, okay, talk to us about ADHD.
- [18:28]
D
Okay, so what am I talking about? So we were just talking about adhd, but. But now you'd like to talk about the monoblock. I'm losing track here a little bit.
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C
I just wanted to mention that. And you talk about it a lot in the book, because I think sometimes people are skeptical because they think, oh, this is new. You know, everybody I knew growing up did orthodontics. Everybod extracted teeth. What is this newfangled thing? And you're like, no, these things that this particular thing had been around since the 1800s. So that's just the whole point. I don't.
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B
There's really.
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C
Unless you have anything you want to add there, you bring up often in the book that so many of these things are tried and true around the world and for a long time.
- [19:11]
D
So, yeah, I have a lot to add there about orthotropics and about retainers. So, okay, so we're going to talk about that, and then we'll talk about.
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C
Sounds good.
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D
So the issue with kids and poor breathing and mouth breathing and nasal congestion all tied to the smaller airway, you have to ask yourself the question of why do kids get these issues right? And are we doing our best job to help mitigate them and prevent them and treat them? And I was one of those kids who had brain braces and headgear and extractions just like everyone else. I knew it was rare to find somebody who didn't have all of that when I was growing up. And it turns out that so many of these traditional orthodontic procedures, what they do is they make a small mouth smaller. What happens to a kid who has crooked teeth because their mouth is too small to accommodate all their teeth? What happens when you extract teeth from that mouth and then take those remaining teeth and force them into a straight position? What you do is you're essentially doing mouth binding. You're making this mouth smaller and smaller and smaller while the rest of the head is growing. And this is one of the reasons why so many kids have this profile that grows backwards. It's called a retrognathic profile, because the mouse started off small, and then they were made smaller by traditional orthodontics. And I'm a perfect example of this. So what this is doing is it's not only affecting your facial profile, it's affecting your airway. It's making your airway smaller. Dentists have been talking about this for over 100 years. If the problem is a small mouth, why wouldn't you expand it? And that's what orthotrop, there's a million of these different devices that do it. This is what was first done so 120 years ago, when a kid had crooked teeth, they knew the mouth was too small, they would expand it. They would expand the mouth. And what happens when you expand the mouth? You make more room for teeth to grow in straight, but to also make more room for the airway to take in an easy breath of air. So the one piece of advice I would suggest to parents, it seems like you're already on this train, is if your kid has crooked teeth. Nobody wants crooked teeth. That's, that's a sign that something's wrong with the mouth. Don't make the mouth smaller. Talk to a dentist, a functional dentist, and find a way of expanding that mouth to the size it was supposed to have been. Not only will you have a better facial profile, you'll have straight teeth at the end, but you'll allow your kid to breathe more easily. And I think this is critically important. And luckily, awareness is really starting to take off now.
- [22:09]
C
Yeah, you wrote in 10 years, and this is what someone said. In 10 years, nobody will be using traditional orthodontics. We will look back at what we've done and be horrified. It's the, the situation. And if people are kind of like, well, why? Why, if they were expanding the mouths, did they stop? And it is a little bit more of a tricky process to expand. And what you wrote in the book is that fewer teeth were easier to handle and offered more consistent results. So in time. Orthodontics has moved away from widening the mouth and opening the airways, but this is very important to go back to.
- [22:45]
B
February can be a really tough stretch for homeschool families. The days are shorter, routines feel heavier and motivation can start to dip for kids and parents alike. And this is where a tool like IXL can be such a helpful support during the mid year stretch. One of the biggest gifts of homeschooling is flexibility, meeting kids exactly where they are right now. IXL is designed to do just that, whether a child needs to reinforce foundational skills, work through a tricky concept, or move ahead with confidence and adapts to their level without pressure or comparison. What stands out to me is how simple and steady it makes learning feel. Everything is organized by grade and subject, so you're not just juggling resources or wondering what to do next. Kids get real time feedback and clear explanations, and parents get progress reports that show exactly how learning is unfolding. No guesswork. IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade, and it's built to help families keep momentum going even through winter, so confidence can grow heading into spring. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. There's something about the start of a new year that makes me want our home to feel more supportive, like it's actually helping us stay organized and focused instead of adding to the chaos. That's why I keep coming back to Wayfair. Wayfair truly has everything in one place, from bedding and bath essentials to storage solutions to easy updates for kids rooms, living spaces and work from home setups. Whether you're trying to simplify mornings, reset routines, or just make your space feel a little more peaceful, it's all there. One of the best updates we made recently was in our podcast studio. We received so many books from guests and they slowly had taken over every surface. We ordered shelving from Wayfair, and it was one of those changes that instantly made the space feel lighter and more intentional. The shelves fit the room perfectly, the style is clean and simple, and finally, everything has a place. It sounds small, but it made a huge difference in how the space feels when we walk in. That's what I love about Wayfair. The huge selection, the range of styles and price points and how easy it is to find pieces that actually work for real life. If you're ready to get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year, for Way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every Style, Every Home this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. February has a funny way of putting relationships under a microscope. Everywhere you look, there are messages about romance and connection and having it all figured out. And whether you're married, dating, single, or somewhere in between, it can start to feel like you're the only one still finding your way. But the truth is, we're all still figuring it out. Therapy is one of those places you can slow down and get honest about what's weighing on your relationships. Unspoken expectations, pressure to get it right. Old patterns that quietly drain connection. Whether you're working through things on your own or together as a couple, therapy can bring clarity to what feels heavy and create space for things to feel brighter again. That's why I appreciate better help. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. They also make it easy to get started by matching you with a therapist through a short questionnaire. And if the match isn't right, you can switch anytime. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy program with over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served globally. And it works, earning an average of 4.9 out of 5 star rating across 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to have everything figured out to make meaningful progress. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com 1000 hours. That's B E T T E R H E L P. And then, like.
- [26:19]
C
You said, this is affecting the breathing. And when kids are not breathing well during the day. And then also you talk a lot about at night. No, snoring is okay, that this is showing up as ADHD symptoms. So talk to the parents who are getting mad.
- [26:37]
D
Yeah. So what's happened? When these kids have this mouth that's too small, it makes them much more apt to choke on themselves at night. And this is one of the reasons why they start breathing through the mouth. You say, well, that's counterintuitive. They should start breathing through the nose, right? No, because on the top of that mouth is this upper palate. And you can, if you have a clean thumb, you can place it in your mouth and you will very likely feel this very deep ridge in your upper palate that's not supposed to be there. Our ancestors didn't have that. It's that ridge, that upper palate is flat. So that's how our mouths are supposed to be developing. But for most people, me included, it's vaulted, okay? It goes up very high. That takes away real estate in the sinuses, which makes it harder to breathe through the nose. So you default with this small mouth to be a mouth breather over and over, and you could say, well, who cares? Air is air, right? Same air comes in through the nose, comes in through the mouth, which is 100% incorrect. Right? We know that scientifically that that's false. Need to be nasal breathing. And so these kids now, and 10% of kids in the US right now have ADHD. And ADHD is diagnosed as a neurological problem. It's a problem with the brain. And it's treated as. As such. We give these kids uppers to wake them up and downers to put them down to sleep. But what I've been finding and what so many researchers have been finding is it is almost always, not all the time, but almost always tied to sleep disordered breathing, to breathing problems at night, to snoring and to sleep apnea. Some 80% of kids with ADHD also have sleep disordered breathing. Wow, that is insane. And so we're treating, and that is what's causing these neurological problems. So we're addressing the wrong thing. It's a plumbing problem, not an electrical problem in the brain. It starts with a plumbing problem and everything gets mess up after that. And what the science has also shown us very clearly is that if you choke on yourself all night, every night, you're stressing yourself out when you're supposed to be resting and restoring. That can lead to way more sicknesses. It can also stunt your physical growth. It can stunt how tall you're going to be growing because you release human growth hormone in these deep stages of sleep that you're not able to access. So this is an enormous, enormous problem. And the thing that's shocking to me is that no one's talking about it. And so I try to, every single time I do a talk, is to make parents aware so they have the knowledge so they can address this. So what I would suggest parents do is if you have a kid, you go into the kid's room. If you can hear them breathing while they're sleeping, there's a problem. If you can hear them snoring or choking on themselves, that's an emergency. So both of those things are huge red flags that your kid is struggling to breathe at night, and you have to fix it if your kid is ever going to be able to celebrate in truly good health. There's a zillion different ways to fix it, but that's the first thing. One thing I've suggested to parents before is you can download an app. There's a lot of them. They're free. Snore lab, Snore clock. I don't. You know, I'm not affiliated with any of these companies. And you place a phone or tablet near your kid's bedside and it records them throughout the night and it gives them a snore score. So that's a good general gauge on the breathing quality. And so many kids have been doing this, which is why they're still wetting their beds when they're 10, 11, 12 years old. On the other side of this. I'll just put a cap on this little section here now, is that parents. These are the parents who write me that track me down when I'm speaking publicly. They say, you know, I taught my kid how to nasal breathe. I use this little device. And after six years of going to 30 different doctors and having this kid on 40 different drugs for the first time in a single night, he didn't wet his bed. And two weeks later, almost all of his problems were resolved, almost all of them resolved by learning how to properly breathe. And I am so sick of getting these messages from people. And they are so angry that their kid missed so many years, so many years of development by breathing poorly. So that is my message to you. Parents out there. Take this seriously. This is a box you need to check.
- [31:30]
C
Yeah. And that is the hope of the book, is that you can make your life and the lives of your children significantly better. Simply, there are things that you can do, things to pay attention, but you have to know when they're young, you have to have the information. And you also go on to say, if you're older, you have not lost all hope. You wrote that the bones in the human face don't stop growing in our 20s. Unlike the other bones in our bodies, they can expand and remodel into our 70s and likely beyond, which means we can influence the size and shape of our mouths and improve our ability to breathe at virtually any age. All the information is in this book. It is wonderfully interesting. It's a total page turner. Can you share your story of. This is such a wild thing, James. Like you went to such Lengths to learn about this. And you had a book that had come out years before called Deep. So you'd already dabbled in this thought of like expanding your lungs and being able to control your breath with these, with this free diving community. But you go to such lengths to research and to really find out what's going on and why this matters so much. So you had your nose completely blocked for 10 days and you went through this whole procedure with another person. They did it too. And you also talked similar, like what I said before. People have been doing this for a while. They were doing it to monkeys in those cases. Sometimes they would sew the nose shut to see what would happen with extended mouth breathing. So can you talk about when you said goodbye to your nose for 10 days?
- [33:02]
D
Yeah. So I had been researching all of the problems associated with mouth breathing, specifically what it does to focus, what it does to lung health, what it does to mental health like anxiety and panic and asthma and more. And I wanted to see how quickly that damage would come on. And we tried to get a big study together at Stanford, but it was going to cost, you know, they quoted us a million dollars to do that. So, so the, obviously that was so, so beyond the scope of anything I could fathom doing. But they offered to allow us to run an experiment with two people. So me and a friend of mine were able to enlist in a 20 day experiment in which 10 days we were forced to breathe through our mouths. And we recorded data three times a day to see what would happen. And everything as advertised happened and it happened within a single day. Spikes in blood pressure, loss of focus. And the most startling thing of all is I don't snore. I don't have sleep apnea. In a single day of converting to mouth breathing, I was snoring. And the longer I was mouth breathing, the more severe the snoring got. So this is, this is a big issue. And it's a big issue with people with seasonal allergies, which is why they tend to snore and have sleep apnea more during springtime when allergies are up. So it, we didn't find any shocking information. What, what we found was confirmation of what the science has been telling us for so long.
- [34:40]
C
Just a 10 day change. And even in five days you're like, this is destroying health. You talk about getting up to pee, you talk about your mouth being dry, you talk about this chemical vasopressin and just how quickly it changes. It's so, so interesting to read about, you talked about, you Just felt awful and every day it seemed to get worse. Then can you talk about. Because actually, so I know about the mouth breathing just because our kids have gone through these appliances. And so the orthodontist would always say like, lips together, teeth together, tongue at.
- [35:11]
B
The roof of your mouth.
- [35:12]
C
I mean, I remember thinking, James, what is she? I never heard of this. I'm like, what is she talking about? Why is this such a big deal? And myofunctional therapy and how are you using your tongue? So I knew about it, but I tend to breathe through my mouth when I exercise. And you know, because you're thinking I'm getting more air, but you talk about how that actually this is a, like, this is a life changing thing for me to read. Because then you.
- [35:38]
B
I've always felt like, well, exercise is.
- [35:40]
C
So hard and I'm so exhausted. So you say if you could train yourself to breathe through your nose even when you're exercising. And you talk about Olympic teams and runners, how this changes their performance and the way they feel.
- [35:54]
D
Yeah. So again, that's just a recap of decades and decades of research that was all saying the same exact thing, that if you think about an athlete or if you think about physical exercise, if you are wasting energy breathing, if you're taking an air that you aren't using, which is what happens when you mouth breathe and you breathe into the chest and you over breathe, you are taking in all of this air, but it never makes it to the lungs to participate in gas exchange. So it's just a waste of your energy. Then you're not going to perform very well. So I can count on one hand how many joggers I've seen jogging around with a closed mouth, right. Breathing in and out of their noses. But think about a cheetah or a horse galloping at a very fat. They're always breathing through their noses, always. And this is what we're designed to be doing for people who say, well, it's impossible when I'm jogging, I just can't do it. Look at Kim Poggi running a two hour marathon, right? And, and look at his breathing. He's running at what, 14 miles per hour, 13 miles per hour for two hours. And look at his breathing. His shoulders are relaxed, he's breathing in and out of his nose, right? So if he can do it for that long, you can do it too. It takes a very long time for some people to convert to nasal breathing when they're exercising. And some people have structural issues in the nose and they need surgery. But for most of us, it's just a habit we need to change. And when we change that habit, you start to learn what true efficiency feels like.
- [37:40]
C
Yeah. Wow, that's a, that's a part that I wouldn't have even considered. So you got these plugs up your nose. You say everywhere we go, we either get questioned or somebody gives us their long life story of breathing woes, how they're congested, how their allergies keep getting worse. Breath inhaled through the mouth saps the body of strength, deforms the face, and causes stress and disease. On the other hand, breath inhaled through the nose keeps the body strong, makes the face beautiful, and prevents disease. So there is so much to learn here. This is so remarkable that it even affected this woman with scoliosis. So you talk about the lungs, that if you expand the shape, the size of the lungs, that this is really going to affect your longevity. And so we have, I guess it's like you read it and you're like, gosh, we have a lot more control than we might think we did. So can you talk about. Because I think I, I had written like, this is where I was like, wow, we can really change our lives. About Katerina Shroth and how she had this, I mean, this huge curve in her spine and was able to really improve her quality of life and the quality of others through breathing.
- [38:52]
D
She was a teenager growing up in Dresden about 100 years ago and diagnosed with moderate scoliosis and given a brace and a cane and told that this was a problem that she was going to have the rest of her life. And she had other thoughts about the body's potential. And she developed a method. It was basically yoga. Nothing more fancy than that of learning how to breathe in completely into both of her lungs and straighten her spine. Right now, if you're sitting down or if you're standing or even if you're walking, you could take a huge breath in, Huge breath in. And you notice what happens to your posture. Right? We have these two balloons right in the middle of our, of our chest that when they're inflated, our posture gets a lot better. So she literally straightened her spine with breathing and then taught this to thousands and thousands of women throughout Germany. It's still taught today. It absolutely works. And it's. This is another thing. If you have a kid with scoliosis, it's especially effective for kids. So a kid with scoliosis. Right now, check out the Schroff method. S C H R O T H I think they're still teaching it at Johns Hopkins. It absolutely works, and especially for kids, because kids are much more malleable. Within a few weeks, you can see massive, massive improvements of just learning how to breathe properly. One thing I'll add to this. I was talking to Dr. Dr. Andrew Weil, who I'm sure you know who he is, integrative Dr. Harvard guy. He asked me a question. He said, why do kids get scoliosis? I was like, I don't know. It's genetic. It's something else. He's like, no, we still have no idea. We have no idea. So he. His hypothesis is that it's caused possibly by dysfunctional breathing. When we're young, if we are curved in one position when we're sleeping as an infant, one lung will always be inflating as the other will half inflate, and then the spine will gently start curving into that position. So no one can prove this. We can't run a randomized clinical trial of kids over the course of 20 years to do this. Completely unethical, but the mechanics of it make a lot of sense to me. So pay attention to the bed your kids sleeping on. Pay attention if they seem to be tilted to one side or if they're breathing irregularly. And if you prevent this earlier, it's so much easier to treat it than it is later on. But the good news is, even if your kid is in their teens, it's still, or even as an adult, this is treatable.
- [41:54]
B
Yeah.
- [41:55]
C
It is so remarkable when you read about these huge gains and you talk about how these were just sort of random people. You call them pulmonauts and that, you know, there's all sorts of medical doctors and. But these are people that really wanted to see change or needed to see change. So you talked about scoliosis. Katarina breathed her spine straight again. She helped people who had gone to the hospitals and the hospitals had given up trying to heal them.
- [42:24]
B
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- [44:45]
C
And then you also talk about emphysema and this choir teacher, this choral teacher who is helping his singers exhale properly and enlarge their lungs. And the the gains are so large, James, and they're often so fast. He took his work to help patients who had Emphysema, and he called it a disease of exhalation. They couldn't get enough of their stale air out. And then he also helped athletes. So can you talk about sto so.
- [45:19]
D
I can fold this into the whole spiel about asthma as well? You have these conditions in which people are struggling to breathe, right? They have this chronic inflammation in their lungs, and they adopt very dysfunctional breathing habits to cope with that. For people with emphysema, they're losing the function of certain parts of their lungs, so they adopt this habit of just. They use different muscles to take an inhale. They're never letting that full breath in, and they're never able to let it out. So what Stao found was that most emphysemics were their diaphragms. And the diaphragm is this umbrella shaped muscle that sits underneath the lungs. It was stuck. So it was. It was literally stuck. So they could only take these little gasps of air. These. He found if he could unstuck that diaphragm, the diaphragm, as it descends, it creates a vacuum in the lungs. So the lungs inflate. And as it ascends, as it lifts up, the lungs, deflate, you exhale. He found that if he could unstuck that diaphragm, right, lift it out of that stuck position, then these emphysemics could recover. And that's exactly what happened. So over and over again, thousands and thousands of patients just by learning how to breathe properly. Now, asthma is different because asthma is inflammation of the lungs, right? And the airways. But what a lot of kids with asthma don't realize, and I'm hoping by mentioning this, parents will start educating them a little more on this, is that taking mouth breaths into the chest, especially when you feel an asthma attack coming on, is the single worst thing you can do. Because what you're doing is you're depleting too much CO2. You're causing more of that vasoconstriction, you're causing more of that inflammation. That's when the airway starts closing up even more. So what kids with asthma should be doing when they're feeling that attack. Come on. Is breathing much more slowly and calmly with these tiny little breath holds in between. And simply by doing that, you send your brain messages that you are calm and you are safe. It seems counterintuitive, but you're getting way more oxygen breathing slowly and calmly than you are hyperventilating. And this is another thing I keep hearing from parents. Asthma is diagnosed by a lot of Doctors as a literally incurable disease that you're supposed to have for the rest of your life. Well, tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who effectively are suffering from zero symptoms of asthma right now because they have learned proper breathing techniques. And I could tell you a bunch of stories. I won't. One training technique that has been proven to be very effective is the Buteyko breathing method. B U T E Y K O breathing technique or breathing method. It trains kids. It's very effective for kids and adults. It trains them to breathe very slowly, to tolerate more CO2 and get control of their breathing and their life.
- [48:55]
C
The book is remarkable with all the things in the appendix. It's like one of the best appendix appendices. There's two appendixes, one, an A and a B. You go through every breathing method. It's the best appendix I've ever seen in any book. And then you include cough reduction, headache reduction, panic reduction, the 4, 7, 8 breathing method. Play the didgeridoo. That's where you talk about ADHD and sleep disordered breathing. You talk about that people can download. You have a live audio track of a seven day breath reset. I'll put the link in the show notes. People can find that@misterjames nestor.com audio humming, you talk about humming. Humming increases the release of nitric oxide in the nasal passages. So if you're hearing a lot of these things, things and you're thinking, oh yeah, I want to check out that method. Or you know, you talk about the 5.5 breath, the breath prayer, like having this rhythm. What is the perfect breath? And then you went and tried a bunch of different things and it's all in the, in the back of the book, the appendix goes through each one and then you talk about where you can find more information about some of those. If you're interested in finding more information, can you talk about the CO2? Because that's something I knew nothing about at all.
- [50:06]
B
At all.
- [50:07]
D
Yeah. So the reason I set up the book this way is nowadays all we get is these little blurbs of factoids and tips, right? They tend to go in one ear and out the other and they're valuable, whether it's tips on supplements or how to prepare food or breath work or exercise. But I found that without context, without a story behind it, none of those tips mean anything. So, you know, 85% of the book is the science and the stories behind all this. Why it's important, how it was discovered, what it can do for you, and how history keeps repeating Itself, as you. You certainly caught on on that theme. And at the end of the book, my editor said, well, you know, it would be nice to have just a quick reference guide for people who just want to see a method. Right. And see the instructions to a method very quickly. So that's why we put it back there and you can just refer to it whenever you want. We've also are now putting a lot of these methods for free on our website. I'm doing them on social media. But again, it's sort of a tricky situation because just telling people to do something without understanding or appreciating why they're doing it tends not to stick. And I'm more on the side of trying to take people into a different world and tell them a deeper story to make it not only make sense to them, but to make them care about it a little more. So that's how we set that up. And the CO2 thing was also one of those things I discovered, which seems so counterintuitive. If right now you take an inhale through your nose and exhale, you can all do this together and then hold your breath on that exhale. Just hold your breath. After a while, you're going to feel this nagging need to breathe. So that need to breathe, people say, oh, it's because my oxygen levels are getting low. No, that need to breathe is dictated by rising levels of carbon dioxide. So we breathe for CO2. That's, that's what controls our breathing. And so many of us are habituated to have this very low level of CO2 in, in our bodies. And when it gets too high, that reminds us that we might be choking or we might be having a panic attack or asthma attack. So we're habituated to just over breathe all the time. And if we do that, if we do that all the time, and most people are over breathers, we're breathing too much. It actually makes it harder for us to get oxygen into our bloodstream and into our hungry cells. And it sends signals to our brains all day long that we are in a panic, anxious state. And this can destroy your health. It can lead to autoimmune diseases, increased risk of asthma, headaches, and a whole bunch of other abomoradies by this constant over breathing. It is so counterintuitive. But that's how it works.
- [53:34]
B
Yeah.
- [53:34]
C
And I didn't know any of it. I learned so much. I took nine pages of notes. We are a culture of over breathers. When people hyperventilate, they are taking in too much air. But the sensation that they get is shortness of breath, choking air, hunger, as if they're not getting enough air. So it is counterintuitive. It's very important to know. You talk about the lungs are the weight regulating system of the body. And you talk about how those with the worst anxieties consistently suffer from the worst breathing habits. And if 18% of Americans, which is almost one in five, suffers from some sort of form of anxiety or panic, the numbers are rising each.
- [54:13]
B
Each year.
- [54:14]
C
We need to teach them about their breathing. And every parent listening, I mean, can take this into their family. It's fantastic. You just learn like thing after thing after thing. I loved learning about the turbinates, that there's six maze like bones and in your nose that look like a seashell and they're your body's first line of defense. And all the hairs in there push against the force of. They can push against the force of gravity. Your nose is your silent warrior. You talk about how in a single breath, more molecules of air will pass through your nose than all the grains of sand on all the world's beaches in a single breath. Trillions and trillions. You talk about mouth taping. I mean, it's just, I mean, of course it got translated into 44 languages. It is a fantastic book.
- [55:03]
D
Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. About the anxiety part of this here. They've done a bunch of studies and I know some of these people that have done these studies, these researchers, and they found consistently people with anxiety and panic disorders are over breathing so much to the point that several of these researchers told me this. They said you can never cure anxiety unless you first ensure that these people are breathing normally. You will never. It doesn't matter how many drugs you take, how many therapy sessions you do. So much of this is tied to breathing. And I know these listeners could be skeptical. They say, you know, I have a stressful life, this and that. I'm not saying it's the only cause of your anxiety. What I'm saying is that if you are dysfunctionally breathing and you don't take care of that breathing and become a normal breather. And I'm by normal breather, I mean good breather, because normal is good. You want to be normal when you're breathing, then it's never going to work. And this is why so many people are failing their therapies. And I've heard this from psychiatrists, I've heard this from psychologists, I've heard this from respiratory therapists, and by good breather and or normal breather, as I would say, this doesn't mean someone who's spending two hours a day in breathwork classes who is doing yoga all day long. We breathe throughout the day and throughout the night, and you can improve it at any time. You don't need any special clothes. You don't need to go to a special class. But I'm telling you, if you are breathing dysfunctionally, your body is always going to be one step behind and you're never quite going to catch up.
- [56:57]
C
It's so important, and it's fantastically written. I would love to talk about the story of you launching the book, because this is in the newer edition that I have where. Where you. I mean, it's. You're such a great writer, and it's an entertaining story, and I think it's just a. It's like a different type of message where you never really know where your life is going to go. And so can you talk about launching this book during COVID and basically being, like, completely out of money? So you're like, I can't wait until Covid is over. And then it just. It just took off.
- [57:31]
D
I've never talked about this in a podcast, so you're the first one that talking about the origin story of this book. So, yeah, I mean, the short version is that this book took so many years longer than I had budgeted, and it costs so much more than I thought it was going to cost. I thought most of it was going to be in the US Most of it was going to be in California. And it turned out that I had to travel all over the world for months at a time. I was on the road for six months out of the year trying to figure out the story. I could not figure out the story because one door would open that would lead to another door that would lead to another door. And I felt I wouldn't be doing justice to this unless I really understood the full thing from the ground up. And I kind of hosed myself doing that because it took so long. And I just burned through my. My book advance to. To the point where I had no other. I had not set up any other means of. Of getting money, you know, honestly, because I was just so absorbed in this book for so long. And then we had a tour planned, you know, for the book. It was going to go out and tour around the world and all that, and then Covet happened. So this book was released about, what, six weeks into lockdown? And we almost didn't release it because you remember what that Was like, right. Printing presses were stopped, but there were no bookstores were open. I said, I'm completely hosed here. Like I spent years on this book. I put everything, even my own, not only the advance, but my own money into it, researching, because I really wanted to understand it. And the only reason, well, one of the main reasons we released it at that time, at the worst time to release anything in the, in the history of publishing, was so I could get my next advance. That's the truth. So, so I would have a little security blanket because there were no other jobs. All magazine writing was just stopped. There's no one was. And I couldn't sell another book because publishers at the time weren't buying books. So we released it anyway. And just completely unexpected what happened after that. I'm still, my head is just spinning. So completely random and unexpected.
- [59:49]
C
But it is also a remarkably good book. But it is a story of hope. You just never know. You say it looked like 10 years of work was to be flushed down the drain. I hadn't received a paycheck in years and had no other prospects. So when you do a book, it's like you get. They usually will give you money at the beginning, you know, a third of it.
- [60:10]
B
They'll give you a third of it.
- [60:11]
C
When your manuscripts turned in and then they'll give you the last third when it pub. When it publishes. So you wrote the. On publication advance from the publisher was the only way for you to get more money. And then you recorded the audiobook like you strung up a microphone in some shed in your backyard. And then that ended up being one of the like the top selling audiobooks of the. I got chills, James. It was one of the top selling audiobooks of the entire year.
- [60:42]
D
It's the publisher. At that time all studios were closed, right? So, so everything was closed. And they said, they told me, they're like, like guess, you know, okay, we can release this book, but we're not going to release the audiobook. I said, why? Why aren't you going to release the audiobook? And they said, because there's nowhere for you to record it. I said, well, what if I order a microphone and I set up a recording studio, which is something I've never done before in my life. But I assured them, I said, oh, I know exactly what I'm doing. Had no, no clue. I called a few people and I have this little shed in my, my backyard and I, I duct tape and nailed a bunch of moving blankets to it. And if you listen to that Audiobook book. To this day it's the same audiobook. I didn't re record it. If you listen very carefully, you can hear maybe a trash truck cruising by. You can hear a dog barking because those were the sounds. I had to start and stop this thing a zillion times because a neighbor would yell or you know, or somebody would drop something on the street. It was completely mad me. So that is the story with the audiobook. I'm actually talking to you on that same hundred dollar microphone. It is such a champ. It just keeps, keeps rocking. So I'm now I'm kind of emotionally tied to it. So I guess I'm stuck with it the rest of my life.
- [62:03]
B
What a story. What a story.
- [62:04]
C
Breath was released in May of 2020 in the beating, bleeding and coughing heart of COVID 19. What happened next surprised everyone. It debuted at number six on the new York Times best sellers list list, went on to be on all these other bestsellers list. Audiobook is one of the top audiobooks of the year. All told, breath would spend 20 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list chart in a half a dozen countries around the world and be published in 44 languages. It is a phenomenal book. Just a total page turner. You learn so much. The way that you write is, is just, it's tremendous. It's like so interesting. You're like, how could it be this interesting about breathing?
- [62:41]
B
Did.
- [62:41]
C
I've got two last questions as we're wrapping up. Did you have a hard time naming it? Like did you go between Breath and Breathe or did you always know it.
- [62:49]
B
Was going to be called Breath?
- [62:50]
D
No, that was something I just had to negotiate with my publisher. I had all these fancy names, these very, you know, verbose, complicated names. And they just said no, no, no, no, no. And then finally we just went for the most obvious and the subtitle was mine. The New science of a Lost Star. Because that's, that's what it was. And I didn't know it at the time, but that's what I was looking for is, is something that bridged the gap between what we know now with all these measurements and what our ancestors knew for thousands of years.
- [63:24]
C
Yeah, I love it. Okay, our last question. And I just, but before I ask question, I just want to say how thankful I am that you said yes. I think this is one of the books that every person, person should read and especially, especially if you're a parent because these are things that are going to be affecting your kids for the remainder of their lives. And there's a lot that you can do when they're young. So thank you for saying yes. Thank you for spending this time with with all of us on your 100 microphone. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood?
- [63:54]
D
That was outside Women in the Ocean is my absolute earliest memory. And I grew up in Southern California and we were down at La Hoya and I was not wearing any clothes. I think I was what, three years old or so. And that's my first memory is is being in the ocean in Southern California. And I get in the ocean almost every day since then. So yeah.
- [64:17]
C
Wow. James, thank you for this tremendous book. People can read breath. I'll put all the links in the show notes. They can go to your website. They can come and on a regular retreat with you in Bali. It's incredible. The photo online, you're like, I want to go to that. And you also have deep free diving, Renegade science and what the ocean tells us about ourselves. I ourselves I interviewed a man named Adam School Nick, who also does a lot with free diving. And these are fantastic books because you can learn about how you can expand your lung capacity and those people end up living longer with extra capacity. We can expand our lives. James, thank you for saying yes. Thank you for being here.
- [64:52]
D
Thanks a lot for having me.
- [64:55]
B
That was episode 700 with James Nestor and I hope you can feel why I wanted this conversation. To mark this milestone. If you enjoyed this one, here are two simple ways it can help reach more people. First, make sure you're following the show that one tap tells podcast apps this show is worth recommending. Second, share this episode with someone specific. A friend who's always tired.
- [65:14]
C
A parent dealing with a child who.
- [65:16]
B
Has chronic sleep issues. A runner, a teacher, a coworker. This one applies to so many people. Just start observing everyone you know and.
- [65:22]
C
See if they breathe through their mouth.
- [65:24]
B
Or through their nose. And don't forget, we're celebrating episode 700 in our online shop. The New Toddler Tea. Yes, I've Eaten a bug or two is launching for a price of just $10. And all our other apparel is 20% off this week as well. Born to climb trees, Trail kid, adult.
- [65:38]
C
And kids teas, long sleeves, hoodies.
- [65:41]
B
It's comfortable, it's fun and it represents a spirit whole movement toward real life. I'm really glad you're here 700 episodes in and I'm honored to have spent time with you and your crew. Until next time. May you find extraordinary moments on ordinary paths.
- [65:57]
A
Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries.
- [66:04]
D
Out to the wind.
- [66:08]
A
Climb some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and.
- [66:15]
C
Take it in.
- [66:19]
A
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever going to beat this view oh, beautiful and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [66:46]
B
World.
- [66:48]
E
It'S tax season, and at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.
- [67:19]
F
This Valentine's Day, the UPS Store certified packing experts are helping pack and ship all the ways we care. From the lovey dovey XOXO gift gifts for your Galentine's gal pal. Even pet gifts for doggie Dearest. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back, guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS Store US retail locations. Send your Valentines on time at the UPS Store. Visit theupsstore.com airguarantee for full details. Terms and conditions apply.