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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 701: Charismatic Adults | Dr. Robert Brooks, Raising Resilient Children
00:58:06
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Song Performer
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [00:34]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
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- [01:54]
Jenny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I am beyond honored to have such an accomplished guest today.
- [02:04]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Your enthusiasm, by the way, is contagious.
- [02:07]
Jenny Urch
Okay, good. Well, I am. I'm so enthusiastic because you are so accomplished, Dr. Robert Brooks. You have co authored 23 books. Okay, I started to go through the biography. And you have your doctorate from Clark University, a training at University of Colorado Medical School, served on the faculty at Harvard, Director of Development of Department of psychology at McLean Hospital, a private psychiatric hospital. And in fact, one of the first things you did was you were a principal at a school in the Locked Door Unit of the Child and adolescent program at McLean. You've been on television. These books have received all sorts of awards. You've received all sorts of awards. The one I read is Finding the Calm Child within, which would really be helpful for any parent of just kind of some basic parenting principles. And also you are consultant to Sesame Street. I mean, the list is so long. Can you take us back? Because you've been in this work for, for decades, I always am really interested in what changes that you've seen. So you start off in this work. You're, you're working with kids who are really struggling. What changes have you seen kind of since you started your work up until now in terms of how children and families are doing?
- [03:19]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Right.
- [03:20]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Well, I'll start a little by telling you, since I've been in the field so long, the changes even in my whole approach. And then we could talk about specific families. When I started, Ginny, it was a time when it was almost what they call the medical model and you looked at what was wrong with people. So what could happen is parents could come in to see me about their child who's having problems. I'm almost embarrassed to say this. I could spend the first hour or two meeting with parents and, and 99% would be about what's wrong with your child. It was almost like the mentality was, you know, here's the problem, how do you fix it? And anyway, along the way I started to feel that this wasn't the best approach that I was really missing, really about the beauty and strengths of each child. And so one of the key changes, and not just in my approach, but in the field of psychology, was starting to look, not ignoring problems, but starting to look at the strengths that we all have, which got me very interested in the topic of resilience. So even during this transition, instead of just asking parents about their kids problems, after about 15, 20 minutes, I would start asking them questions like, now that I've heard about a few of the problems, can you please tell me what you see as your child's strengths? Their beauty, and I use words like that, or something I coined 40 years ago, or their islands of competence, you know, the particular strengths. And in the field of psychology, the whole field of positive psychology was also emerging as I was changing my views. So major change for me, and a major change, I think, in the field was to really look beyond just problems, not ignore them, look beyond them and see what strengths were. And this became even more important, you know, just the greater stresses on kids from When I started to. Now, you know, you just have to pick up any paper. And the increase in anxiety and depression among kids and mental health issues. Now, I don't want it to seem like when I started 45 years ago that there wasn't a lot of pressure. There was a lot of pressure then in the 1980s, I would get questions about how much screen time should we, we allow kids to have at that point, screen time and television. And we face this now. But there really is a greater pressure now in terms of, of course, the Internet and all of these things could be very good. And also with AI, the worries about kids in one sense giving up their own problem solving abilities, having, you know, AI solve these, some of these problems and, you know, there's just so many more influences on kids. Some may be good, but some are also much more problematic than I think. When I think back to when I raised my own kids and even my grandkids getting older now, it's really, I think that kids are facing greater challenges. Again, I believe in the statistics about the greater anxiety and depression they face. Which even more is why I believe strongly that we have to think about, okay, what helps kids to be more resilient, to be able to solve problems. So a quick 10 minute or whatever overview of the last 45 years of my career.
- [07:02]
Jenny Urch
Yes. And these are the topics that you're talking about. Tenacity and perseverance and empathy and, you know, how to help your child to worry less, self discipline, resilience. So it all is incredibly important, especially in this and age, like you're talking about with AI. I loved the phrasing Nurturing islands of competence. So the book that I read of yours, plus you have incredible articles on your website. So the website is called doctorrobertbrooks.com and I'll make sure I'll put that link in the show notes so people can go.
- [07:30]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Thank you.
- [07:30]
Jenny Urch
Each month you put out a new article. So I was looking back all the way to 2023, there was an article about what differentiates us from machines. And I just thought, oh, this is so important, like what makes us human? So we'll talk about some of that today too, because I think if we can help kids with the parts that make us human, it's really going to help us differentiate ourselves in this day of AI. So the book I read, Finding the Calm Job within, is specifically to help raise resilient children who have disruptive mood dysregulation disorder. But what I found was that, well, a lot of kids are Struggling with their emotions. Obviously this is more of an extreme case, but so many of the parenting philosophies I felt would work for any parent is I loved the nurturing, the islands of competence. You said every child has unique strengths that parents must identify and nurture. Parents need to create an environment where their child's strengths can flourish, offer opportunities for their strengths to shine. And you say when these children, they face extreme, they got these emotional regulation issues, they're really, you know, they're really struggling with the way that they view themselves. Is an interesting day and age though, because a lot of time is going to screens. And so you could see that a child maybe would grow up and not have had any of their islands of competence nurtured. So can you talk to the parent about, you know, like putting our time and our resources toward making sure that we first of all can identify their strengths and then nurture them as well?
- [09:00]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes. This is a very important topic. And I also, I don't know if it was in that sentence. Ginny. I also have often said you have to honor your child's islands of competence because sometimes a kid's strengths is not necessarily what you would like to see. And I'll give you two examples so it becomes real. One is about a 13 year old boy who was having a lot of difficulties and his social skills were not as advanced. He had trouble in school and he didn't like sports. And his parents both had backgrounds where they were excellent students, they were excellent sports, very good social skills, and they had a daughter two years older than this son who was just like they were. So at one point they actually talked to me about being disappointed in their son. Even though they could say that, you know, he had these learning problems, whatever, they were disappointed and they used words like that. So I remember asking them, well, what do you see as his strengths? And they were a little hesitant. And finally they said, well, he likes to garden and take care of plants. And I thought, well, at least there's something he likes to do. But they said, and again, these were well meaning parents, but misguided in many way. They said, yeah, but, you know, whatever. A 13 year old boy shouldn't be interested in that. He should be getting good grades. And so he did not feel accepted at all. And it took a lot of work in therapy for them eventually to accept their son. And actually one of the things it led to is they went to a horticulture show where he displayed some of the plants and in school, the plants, some of his plants were in the lobby and they actually started a horticulture club there so that he could really taste success. So that's one case where they did not honor the strengths of the son. The other was a seven year old boy. And I'm just going into little detail here so people realize these concepts relate to real kids. 7 year old boy and he was an anxious kid. He was not interested in some things like sports. And his parents came to see me mainly because of the anxiety. But what happened was early on the father said, you know, when my wife was pregnant with our son, all I could think about was playing ball, you know, with him, just like I had done with my father. And the father, I'm condensing this even though it's a longer story. The father then said to me, you know, my son isn't interested in sports. So I said, well, what is your son interested in? When was the last time you saw him happy? And both parents immediately said, he loves to paint, draw. He's only seven, but he's pretty good. And then father teared up and he said, oh, but you know, the problem is I don't like to draw or paint. And I said to the father at that point, a very well meaning person. I said, you know, I have found that sometimes we have to accommodate more to our children's interests than asking them to accommodate to ours. He calls me the next day and he said, I couldn't stop thinking about your comment of accommodating to our kids passions. I use that word too, an interest. And I just signed my son and me up at one of the here in Boston, one of the museums, for an art class. And they took an art class together. And after the first meeting in the art class, the father called me and he was really choked up. And he said it was so nice to see my son so happy doing something and that I was sharing it with him. And then he kidded a little, he said, and I'm not a good artist. And my son looked there and he said, dad, maybe you're holding your pencil the wrong way. You know I'm kidding. So those are those moments that why it's important to honor kids islands of competence, whether it's horticulture, whether it's art. And that doesn't mean, again I'll say this throughout, that doesn't mean you ignore things if a kid is having problems. But what I find is if kids feel they have disappointed us, that is one of the strongest feelings there can be. And not necessarily in a positive way. Because if they feel there's no way that they can really feel loved or accepted. Then kids are not going to be very resilient. And I'll just add this last point. All the research on resilience, Jenny, shows that resilience is rooted in positive relationships, whether first with your parents and then other caregivers, and that if there's not at least one or two people during your childhood who believes in you, it's much more difficult to be resilient. And the late psychologist Julius Siegel, in one of his articles, and he spent his whole life looking at resilience. He said in looking at research around the world, the kids who make it have during their childhood or adolescence the presence of what he called a charismatic adult. I sometimes wish he hadn't used the word charismatic. It has different meanings to different people. But his definition is nothing short of poetic. He says a charismatic adult is an adult from whom a child gathers strength. And just to end this point, we, even as adults, throughout senior years, we all need charismatic adults in our life. People who encourage us, who believe in us on that. And kids need that as well.
- [14:51]
Jenny Urch
Gosh, that made me emotional.
- [14:52]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, yeah. Well, it is. We're talking about, you know, family relationships. And I often ask parents, and your audience can think about this. Who were the charismatic adults in your life growing up? What did they say and do that made them charismatic adults for you? And then I'll add, and what are you saying and doing to be a charismatic adult for your child? Or as I mentioned before we got on, I recently spoke in Michigan to educators. I'll ask the same thing. Who was the teacher you had that was a charismatic adult for you? Gathered strength. And if you're a teacher, what are you saying and doing in your classroom? So you become a charismatic adult for your students?
- [15:36]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. Oh, to be the person that helps someone else to gather strength.
- [15:40]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, oh. It's very powerful.
- [15:43]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [15:43]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yeah. First of all, it brings meaning to our own life to be a charismatic adult.
- [15:47]
Jenny Urch
That's right. That's right. We make a difference, nurture the islands of competence. And I really liked this article that you talked about what makes us human. And you were talking about consciousness and empathy. I want to talk about empathy next. But even the fact that computers are kind of good at everything, like some of the top songs right now on Apple Music are AI written songs. Computers are good at everything. And it is a unique human quality that we have islands of competence, that we're not good at everything, that there's certain things that light us up, certain things that light our kids up. And it's not all for, you know, not for. In. In some ways you're like, I wish I was good at everything. But it's these unique parts that make us human. And so you are giving this charge that you have to identify, nurture and honor the unique strengths that your child has.
- [16:39]
Dr. Robert Brooks
I'm glad the word honor was in there. So I always. That's what I was just talking about, honoring. I'm. I'm sorry.
- [16:45]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
- [16:46]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. All those pieces matter.
- [16:49]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
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- [20:21]
Jenny Urch
Then empathy is a part that you talk about a lot too. Empathy is the cornerstone of emotional resilience. Obviously the studies are saying that empathy is dropping. This has to do a lot with the screens and the sort of selfie generation. Can you talk about why it's important? It's seems kind of like a soft skill and it shouldn't really matter but it does matter. And then how do we nurture that in our families?
- [20:41]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes, in probably every book I've written and many of my articles about resilience, in the books, there's a chapter on empathy. And the reason it's in there is it's such an important skill that we have to really develop in ourselves. Daniel Goldman now got a time about 30 years ago, he wrote a book, Jennique, his psychologist, called Emotional Intelligence. And in that book he basically said, sometimes more important than IQ is emotional intelligence. And one of the key components of emotional intelligence is empathy. And what empathy is, I mean, most of the viewers will know, not totally simplified, is the capacity to put yourself inside the shoes of another person and see the world through their eyes. And when I started talking a lot about empathy, I had parents especially say, are there certain things we should be thinking about to help us to be more empathic? And so in the many workshops I've given parents and teachers, I'm going to just mention a few questions for your listeners to think about. I always like to ask parents, and the same could be of teachers, what words would you hope your children use to describe you? And, you know, I'll always smile and say, you know, every one of your kids has words to describe you, just like you had words to describe your parents. So what words do you hope they use? And if it's teachers, I will say, you know, what words do you hope your students use? And then I'll ask the next question, and it sounds simple enough, is what do you regularly say and do, intentionally say and do on a regular basis so that your kids are likely to use the words you hope they use? And then I'll ask, and what words do you think they will use? Now, the reason I started to do that is, you know, I'll give you example. I was giving a workshop for teachers, and I asked these questions, and a number of the teachers said, right away, we hope our kids see us as caring, which is very important. You want to feel cared for. And then I'll say, okay, what are two or three things you've done in the past two, three weeks? So they're likely to see you that way. And some teachers could tell me right away, and some could say, I, I'm not sure, you know, that's why in writing books for, you know, about resilience and how to raise resilient kids, you know, you want to give certain things that people can do, parents could do and teachers could do to help kids be resilient. And the question of what words might they actually use gets people to think about one. What words do I hope they use? But what am I doing in saying, are they going to actually use these words? I'll give you another quick example. I was giving a workshop. What happened at this workshop? There were about 200 parents there. I'm glad. Does not happen often, but it turned out in some way to be fun. I had just finished asking these questions when all of a sudden the woman in the audience basically shout out, oh my. I'm up there. I'm thinking, there's a medical emergency. And I said, what is it? She says to me, bob, those are good questions. I never really thought about them. And then she says, it's like she's now oblivious that there's like me and her and 198 viewers. She said, can I tell you the first word I hope my kids use to describe me? So at this point, everyone's in a good mood.
- [24:12]
Narrator/Song Performer
So.
- [24:13]
Dr. Robert Brooks
So I said, what? Just like this? She said, I hope the first word they use is calm. And I'm thinking, oh my God. She just disrupted the whole audience. And I said to her, but there was a positive mood there. I said to her, do you think that's the first word they would use? And she just like, not at all. I've been yelling at them for like 10 years. I don't think that's the first word they would use. She came up to me afterwards and she said, I'm sorry I disrupted place. I said, that's okay, people were smiling with you. And she said, your questions in one sense were so simple, but I never thought about them. How would my kids describe me? I mean, when I've done marital therapy, it's the same thing. How would your husband describe you? How would your wife describe you? Or how would you hope they describe you? I always ask first. So empathy is very powerful. It's hard to be a charismatic adult if you cannot understand the world through the eyes of the person like your child. And it's hard to be a charismatic adult when they feel you don't understand them or you're being hypercritical. So that's why empathy plays such a big role in one of my books. I can't remember if it's in the book you alluded to. There was someone, a well known business person, who said the most important thing he learned at Harvard Business School. And I remember when I was first reading the article, I said, what is it? Was empathy. He said, that was one of the most important things because whatever world you're in, the ability to try to appreciate the world of another person is critical.
- [25:54]
Jenny Urch
You have an article about that on your website too. People can look that up as well. Yes, it's in your books, but it's also on your website. I saw that one.
- [26:00]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Well, I should make you my agent. You've already.
- [26:04]
Jenny Urch
I did just find a lot of useful information and such a depth of, and breadth of topics as well. So adept there, but also a breadth of so many different. The trails that you could go down.
- [26:16]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, thank you.
- [26:17]
Jenny Urch
Because you're talking about Quitters Day. That's you know, so, you know, heading into this New Year's time where there's New Year's resolutions, like you're talking about everything from Quitters Day to the importance of like the small interactions there called interactions with weak ties. A runner's wave, a smile, like how a warm greeting. You're like, it's, it seems like it's unimportant, but it's not. It's really impactful. You talked about Dr. Arthur Brooks. No relation, but I've actually gotten a chance to talk to him as well. I really, I'm like, I love these Dr. Brooks here. But okay, so talking about empathy, let's talk about this. So something that happens often is that kids in, in this book Finding the Calm Child within, you're talking about emotional disturbances that are often not equatable with the situation. But in general, all kids have emotional disturbances and they get upset about different things and you cut their, their sandwich into a square instead of a triangle. You know, that, that seemed like they're not very important. But you use this phrase emotional regulation before consequence based discipline, which I think would be helpful for every child. You talk about how they can often be too emotionally charged to respond in a way that seems reasonable and shifting the focus from punishment to emotional growth that requires empathy.
- [27:36]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes, very much so. Look, when you get, you know, when your kid is acting up, it's very easy after all to get very angry. Now that particular book focuses on a specific diagnosis, but as you say, the principles could apply to anyone. So where this comes up, you know, after I co authored book Raising Resilient Children a few years later, so many of the questions I got at my talks were discipline, discipline. So I spent a year really, I'll say researching and then co authoring a book on. It wasn't called how to Discipline. It was called very specifically raising a self Disciplined child. Because my feeling was discipline should be used one to make sure there's a safe and secure environment. But one of the goals of discipline is to create self discipline. So even if you're not there, the child feels comfortable about that. So in one of the what. One of the things you read, Ginny, is there are times where, especially if a kid is having a meltdown. And in that book we're talking about kids who very often for biological reasons mainly have a meltdown, punishing them at those times, trying to reason with them at those times they're not processing anything. So there are those instances where you basically almost sometimes, if it's a young kid, have to hold the kid. You can't explain things. It's afterwards that you can start discussing things with the child. And for me, if a kid is screaming and yelling and your response, and let me tell you as a parent myself, it could get very, become very easy to yell back. But if you do, then you're just reinforcing the acting out behavior. And I know this is very difficult. So we have to find ways when our kid is acting out sometimes to give them some space as long as they're not destroying things or hurting themselves where they can calm down. I think sometimes we don't even realize when we're talking to our kids, we forget what a meltdown may be. They're not hearing anything at all. And so the first thing I always feel is like even the title, Finding the calm Child within, you've got to calm the child down, help the child. Afterwards you could try to discuss it with the child. And as in that book, we know that some kids, even if you discuss it and they'll say, okay, next time I'll be calmer, they still may not be, but we slowly can teach them what I call, you know, coping strategies that will help them to grow and develop. That's why raising a self disciplined child, which again implies when you're not there, slowly children develop the, the, these inner abilities to really think before they act.
- [30:31]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. I mean you talk about the science here that you say they're stuck and you, like you said, this book is specifically written for children with dmdd. Everybody has had a child that's had a meltdown. So it works for every parent. You say the child is in a heightened state. It may seem like they're overreacting or being defiant, but they're stuck. They're stuck in emotional high year. And you go through like these are the chemicals, these are the things that are being released. And so I think there has to be a level of empathy there to know that you have to deal with that first.
- [31:09]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes. You know, you just said something and I hope I'm not interrupting. That is really very important. You know, some parents right away want to stop the behavior, which I totally understand. But with empathy, what you're really trying to do is one and eventually to use this to, you know, are there certain times my child gets more upset than others? Are there things I could do to prevent it? In our book Raising a self disciplined Child, I think we have a whole chapter on prevention because there may be certain things we know are triggers for a child. I remember once, just to give you a quick example, it was a four year old boy with what's called a difficult temperament. Anyway, I saw the parents and the mother said to me, I can't even bring him into a grocery store because right away he wants to something and if you say no, he's screaming and yelling. And he was only four. So I said to the mother and the both parents were there, I said, well, why do, why do you bring him into the grocery store? And she said, well, kids have to learn. I said he may not be capable of learning right now. And it was like this huge relief. She said first she said though, well, other kids 4 years old can do it. I said, well, you really have to know your kids temperament.
- [32:29]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [32:31]
Dr. Robert Brooks
What would happen is even before she went in, she would say I got very anxious, which probably the kid felt the same thing. Sure. You know, so sometimes I don't want to overly simplify it, but there may be some things that are triggers that we say, okay, can my child handle this? How do I prepare my child and some kids as much as you prepare them, like with that four year old, the moment he can't went in there, there was just too much stimulation.
- [32:57]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And truth be told, how unnatural is a grocery store.
- [33:00]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Jenny Urch
Four year old in the 1860s weren't going into grocery stores.
- [33:05]
Dr. Robert Brooks
You're right.
- [33:05]
Jenny Urch
This is actually a relatively new thing. And they do it on purpose, don't they Dr. Brooks? Like they're putting all the things they have, all the toys at the four year old level. Like they're trying to get your kid to have a meltdown. Kim. John Payne says they call the parent the. What is the phraseology he uses? Purchasing friction. That the parent is the purchasing friction. And they want the kid to nag and nag and nag and nag so that they make money. So I mean, I think that's very practical.
- [33:34]
Narrator/Song Performer
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Dr. Robert Brooks
What you bring up is, see, empathy could imply. I start with the assumption and I know it may not always be that every child and every parent is doing the best they can under the circumstances. And what happens is sometimes parents mindset is, my son could control himself if he wanted to. You know, if they tried harder, they could do it. But once you have that mindset, then it can be very critical. You know, imagine how we would feel. I would say this as adults. Imagine if you were struggling at work and your boss said, you know, if you tried harder, you could do better. Would we say thank you? And I always say to parents, you know, imagine if you came home from work and the first thing your kid said to you is, did you finish all your work at work today? Because if you didn't, there's no television for you tonight. And if you studied harder, you know, we could live better or you worked harder. But that's how kids experience it.
- [34:34]
Jenny Urch
That's such a great point. Who has ever said that to their parent? Gosh, mom, if you just to want worked harder, I could have those nicer shoes.
- [34:41]
Dr. Robert Brooks
That's right.
- [34:42]
Jenny Urch
Nobody ever. But we say it to kids all the time.
- [34:44]
Dr. Robert Brooks
That's right. And I say, look, I did it with my own son who's very successful today in high school, where he thought homework was optional. I did not. Nor did his teachers. But when, like what I say is, imagine the first thing you heard when you came home as a parent was something like that. But that's what we say. And sometimes it's just out of our own anxiety if kids are having some struggles or not doing as well in school. That's where empathy comes in. Because I say to parents, if your kid asked you to work harder, do you think your response would be, thank you so much, I really appreciate your advice? No, we'd be really angry with our kids. That's why I'm glad you brought up empathy. Because empathy gets us to think about what we want someone to say to us, what we just said to our kids. And that's why I start with the assumption. And I realize it's a not always can be the case, but I start with the assumption this parent, even if they're spanking too much, you know, and could the corporal punishment, even if they're doing this, this, this, it's all they know now. It's they're doing the best they can, the child is doing the best they can. See, if I start with that assumption, which took me a while, so especially because when you read my bio, I especially had to learn that when I was principal of the school in a psychiatric hospital in it was a locked door unit. These kids would run away if it wasn't locked door. And many of them, the behaviors which brought them in were really what we call acting out behaviors. And it was very helpful to me to start saying this. You know, this kid is doing the best he or she can, but for whatever reasons, you know, brain development or whatever reasons. That's why in the book about dmdd, we talk about that there are other factors which are contributing. So it helped me to say this kid is doing the best they can. And that's why I started to speak to parents. Because a parent saw a kid as lazy or unmotivated, they would act one way and I would say to them, that's one way of seeing it. I never wanted to put a parent's view down. That's one way of seeing it. Your child's behavior. Can I share with you another way? Because one of the things I learned is if you want a parent to be empathic towards their kid, as someone who has seen a lot of parents in counseling or in workshops, I have to make sure they experience me as being empathic towards them. And that's why I started thinking about the words we use. And that's why I started saying, that's one way of viewing your child. Can I share another way? Rather than saying, you know, what you're doing is really wrong, because then the parent gets very defensive on that. That's why I've also written a lot about the specific words we use and of course, the tone of voice we use. So people are likely to hear us rather than immediately become defensive and not listen to us.
- [37:36]
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- [40:01]
Jenny Urch
I love all of this. All of it.
- [40:02]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Thank you.
- [40:04]
Jenny Urch
It's so practical. I talked to this man recently. His name's Dr. Ross Green.
- [40:08]
Dr. Robert Brooks
I know Ross. He's a friend of mine.
- [40:10]
Jenny Urch
Oh, that's so great.
- [40:11]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, sure. I know Ross's work very well.
- [40:14]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, he's got a book coming out called Lost. I think it's called Lost Day at School.
- [40:19]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes, he wrote. Yeah, he wrote that.
- [40:21]
Jenny Urch
He wrote that one.
- [40:22]
Dr. Robert Brooks
The new one, the Explosive Child is the one he. Matter of fact, you go, I think it's on his Website, the book. And they have a quote from this Dr. Robert Brooks. I think it's on his website about his first book. I've known Ross for years. Yeah, our philosophies are very similar. Yeah. You know, he focused a lot on the, you know, the explosive child. But you know, we both have what we call a strength based approach, really looking at strengths. Because Ross, it's interesting you brought him up because he, I forget his exact statement, but it's something kids would do.
- [40:59]
Jenny Urch
Kids do well if they can. Yeah, kids do. That's what you, what you talked about reminded me of the new book that he has coming out is called the Kids Aren't okay. But he has one already called the Explosive Child like you talked about. And one at school.
- [41:12]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes, first one. And then he had lost in school. Yeah, lost at school. Or lost in school anyway. Oh yeah, no, Ross is. Yeah, I've known ross for probably 35 years now. Our paths crossed and anyway, his work really I would say just resonates with my approach as well.
- [41:31]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, kids do well if they can.
- [41:33]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yeah.
- [41:34]
Jenny Urch
So you also talk about in this book and people can find it in all of your work. You're talking about with self discipline, also learning how to become better problem solvers and decision makers, which is also, also an important thing in this day and age because a lot of kids are dealing with perfectionism, impulsivity and lack of confidence. So people can find information there on your website and also in your books you've got really practical ideas. There's like a game called the what if game and the emotion thermometer and the problem solving chart and the decision making jar. So practical things because kids are going to have to make a lot of decisions. Their jobs are probably not going to be stable and these are things that we need to help them with. I love that you had so many stories in your book too. Like they're talking about the mom with the 4 year old going to the grocery store. There was another story where it was the kid was 16 and the, you know, and the parent is still telling the 16 year old what to expect. And they might think, oh well, that kid is too old. But to each kid their own, I mean we still tell our kids what to expect. We are going as soon as I'm done today we're going to Washington D.C. for this event. We're like, we're leaving at 5pm and you know, my kids who are all teenagers mostly, I was like, what? What are we doing? When it probably asked like half a.
- [42:43]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Dozen times, I I'll tell you another quick story. I remember my older son, Rich. He did a semester abroad in London, and then he came home, you know, and he had a great time. After London, he then traveled by himself by the auto rail around Europe. He comes home and for a few weeks before he's going to back to college. And so he's going out. It's, you know, these old patterns, these. I said, did you remember to take your wallet? And he looks at me, it's embarrassed to say this. He said, dad, I traveled all over Europe and I handled it okay. You know, it's like I'm. It's that in my books I talk about, you know, the negative scripts. You're still saying this, and it's not doing any good. And so you have to realize at a certain time, you know, that. And it's always. Can be a balancing act. When is. When can our kids. When do we stop saying, did you remember to take your wallet?
- [43:41]
Jenny Urch
You know, and it's kind of sad, isn't it, because you are losing that role.
- [43:47]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Right?
- [43:47]
Jenny Urch
It is a loss for the parent. Right. It's the loss of caregiver.
- [43:51]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes. This is a critical point. I remember one of the first workshops I gave. This goes back many years ago, Jenny, and it was about adolescence. And I said, you know, for many parents, it's also a period of mourning.
- [44:06]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
That's right.
- [44:07]
Dr. Robert Brooks
That you're giving up the child, you know, you're having to let go. And when you let go, you know, there is this period of mourning. I said, the good news is after the period of mourning, there may be a different. There will be a different relationship. But it's also. Could be a very wonderful relationship. But yeah, I've had parents say to me, I remember a couple I was seeing and they were having trouble with their teenage girl. And the father said, when the girl was there, it was a family therapy. I'll never forget this. I hadn't thought about this for a while. The father said, I still. I miss when you were 4 or 5 and you would sit on my lap and what have, you know, with a lot of feeling.
- [44:52]
Narrator/Song Performer
Yeah.
- [44:52]
Dr. Robert Brooks
The girl said, but, dad, I'm no longer four or five. They, they, you know, they were controlling her life too much. But it was just in that poignant moment. That's why I often talk about these micro moments, these brief things that, you know, really wake someone up or get them to think of something in a different way. And the father, you know, had to say, you're right. But it's. It's something I have to deal with because said especially the father in that case was, you know, they were just managing or he was managing her life too much and asking too many questions. And I was. It was nice that the father could even say I, you know, when she's four or five, she'd sit on my lap and hug me and he had all those memories and they were not going to take place anymore. And she was able to just say, I thought in an empathic way, but I'm not four or five anymore. Yeah, it is, it's interesting what you said. It is. It's a period of mourning, different stages. But out of that period of mourning could come new identities and new relationships that are still founded on the work, you know, we've done when kids are younger.
- [46:05]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. New ways of relating. Eventually. Grandkids.
- [46:08]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, yeah.
- [46:09]
Jenny Urch
There's good to come. Yeah.
- [46:11]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Delightful having, you know, for, as I mentioned my younger one when I mentioned Orphea or may have been off here. Just started at the University of Michigan as a freshman and, you know, it's all new relationships and, and then it's great to see them, but it's. It is a somewhat different relationship. You know, it's not that like two of the grandkids live mile down the road. It's not like they used to come over, you know, and have sleepovers. They're not going to do that anymore. But certainly all of those early experiences lead to, you know, relationships of love. And you just have to realize they're adults now.
- [46:50]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. They're going to have class. You know, they may not have time for you when you're in the area.
- [46:56]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Oh, I remember when all of my grandkids became teenagers, you know, oh, Grandpa Bob. And you know, the hug. And then they went out to be with their friends, which is very normal.
- [47:07]
Jenny Urch
Yes. But I, I even remember that as a. As a mother, like, you know, around, you know, when your kid is kind of clinging to your leg and then.
- [47:14]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yeah.
- [47:15]
Jenny Urch
And our kids were kind of clingy, so maybe this is older than other kids, but, you know, eight or nine, and they prefer to not cling on your leg and they're gonna go. And you're kind of like miffed or you're kind of like put out. You're like, wait a minute. But it's good because you do. You do grow. And then you get to have other experiences through the expansion of themselves. Like the story you talked about at the beginning about the dad who took the art class.
- [47:38]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes.
- [47:39]
Jenny Urch
His world did end up Expanding, definitely.
- [47:43]
Dr. Robert Brooks
And it expanded. He was able to honor his kids island of confidence. But most important, and I still remember that call when he said how wonderful it felt to see his son smile so much. And he was there. I mean, that moment, you know, I think what it did also for him is it really offered a sense of hope that he could have a very good relation with his son, even if the son was not interested in sports, which was, you know, because the father and father's father, that's how they. I hate to. It's overused sometimes the word bonded, but they bonded over sports. So he was bonding over, if we want to use that word, over art.
- [48:28]
Jenny Urch
Or the other kid. It was gardening. Otherwise your world is narrow. If your father was into sports and you're into sports and then your kids into sports, then you just have this narrow thing. Otherwise it's really expanded. So it's a beautiful way to look at it. I would love if you talked a little bit about technology because you wrote in this book about screen sizes and you have this statement, the small devices may stimulate the brain activity differently, resulting in dysregulation. I thought that was a really interesting point because you brought up at the very beginning screen time. You said in the 80s people were still concerned about screen time, but it was a different size.
- [49:02]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Right.
- [49:03]
Jenny Urch
And it was very heavy and you couldn't carry it in your pocket. And there was only programming at certain times of the day for kids. So talking about emotional dysregulation, this is.
- [49:14]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
A piece of it.
- [49:15]
Jenny Urch
It's also stealing, I think, from the islands of competence. What advice are you giving to parents these days about their kids?
- [49:22]
Dr. Robert Brooks
You know what, I don't want to sound overly old fashioned, so I'll mention a few things. I am very pleased that many schools now the kid has to put away, not only put away, they have to hand it to the teacher, the phones. And I am in the board of a school here in the Boston area with kids who've had emotional learning problems. And it was interesting. This is just one example. The school last year said that kids would come to school and they would hand in their phones. And we put in, you know, I don't know, locked up or whatever it was. And so I asked the head of the school, this wonderful woman, I said, how was it? She said, the first day or two the kids really were upset. But by the third or fourth day they were more relaxed and relating with each other. So one thing is in schools, I think it's very important. Important in terms of limiting These distractions. And I think at home I say to parents, I know it's difficult, especially with cell phones and everything, but I think there has to be a limit. We have to get out more also, even in colder weather. I live in the Boston area, you're in Michigan. We just have to get out more, take a walk, do certain things. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York and well before screen time and we would be out playing all the time. I mean the schools weren't even open like on a weekend. We'd be playing basketball if it was 15 degrees out. But it was just nice to be out there. Now I know those days are not going to happen again. But I think parents a couple things they have to clearly, you know, they have to be set some guidelines as kids get older. Certainly one has to turn more over to the kid. The other or one of the other issues is, which I've heard from a lot of kids and I've seen is many parents are really absorbed by their phones. I remember when my grandson Teddy was playing in a soccer. They were I think seven years old. The kids and I always loved soccer because even if a kid was disorganized, it always looked like 20 kids. The boy ball was like a moth, you know, moths following a light basically. And a kid scored a goal, Jenny, and he was so happy. And this was a kid who was not well coordinated. And he immediately looked at his father and his father was. His father was looking on something screen. Father totally missed everything and the look of disappointment. So I also say to parents, you've got to regulate your also your use of this. Now the other thing is there have been some interesting articles coming out and I know it goes beyond screen time about AI. I will tell you, I have found, you know, like chat GPT to be very good in terms of doing research. They come up with articles, but you then have to still they'll write the article for you, but you really have to write it for yourself. And there have been several articles, articles by well known, say cognitive psychologists who say if AI, if the kid is using AI to actually solve a problem and write the article, it's robbing them of their experiences of problem solving. And you mentioned problem solving before. So it's one thing to do some research and get articles like I've done, but then the actual writing and putting together solutions, if we just depend on AI, especially now we're talking about kids, young adolescents, we're robbing them. One of the most important things to be able to be critical thinkers. That's One of my concerns, and especially reading some of the articles I've been collecting, is what is the cost when everything is being done for you, including writing the article, synthesizing things again, I know how I use it. It pulls up articles I didn't even know about. But I still want to be able to then synthesize these articles and really be a good problem solver. And I say to parents, you know, guidelines could be set, but they have to be set for you about how much screen time. The difficult thing is, of course, some kids will say, well, I'm doing my homework here. And that's always difficult. You know, the parents can't always micromanage, but there should be times where there is no screen time, you know, and, and, and, but that means for us as well, you can't ask your kids to put down their phones if we're using phones all the time. And when parents tell me, yeah, but we're adults, I say, yes, but if the child sees you not respecting, you know, times to put down your phone. We model things for our kids. We have to be very, you know, we have to be very conscientious about our own screen time.
- [54:23]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
- [54:24]
Jenny Urch
Like when they say, but we're adults, then it's like, exactly, exactly. And all the more reason it goes back to the empathy piece.
- [54:31]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Exactly.
- [54:32]
Jenny Urch
Like empathy has to start with the adults first if we want it to trickle down.
- [54:36]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Definitely.
- [54:37]
Jenny Urch
All right, let's just wrap it up here.
- [54:39]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Okay.
- [54:40]
Jenny Urch
What makes us human? What makes us human? So not only are there these 23 books people can check out and I'll make sure I'll put a link in the show notes to a lot of the ones that would be really of interest to this audience. So Tenacity and children nurturing the seven instincts for lifetime success. Chasing positive. Chasing positivity. The charismatic advisor in conversation.
- [55:03]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Play therapy.
- [55:04]
Jenny Urch
Play therapy. Of course, that's going to be interesting. Interesting to this audience. Inventions Interventions to enhance relationship. To enhance. I'm just messing up everything. Enhance resilience. And we talked about the self disciplined child. There's a handbook of resilience. Seven steps to help your child worry. Less angry children. Worried parents. Seven steps to help families manage anger. Seven steps to improve your child's social skills. Understanding and managing children's classroom behavior. I mean, these are all applicable, so lots of options there. And then on your website you have a new article that comes out every month. The one that came out today is about mattering.
- [55:41]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Yes.
- [55:42]
Jenny Urch
So can you give us a little brief about that? And then yeah, well, and then people are gonna have to go to the website because we're gonna be out of time. But you have an article called what Makes Us Human.
- [55:51]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Okay. I'll quickly mention mattering, because, you know, to be resilient, you have to feel there has to be what we call unconditional love. You know, you're loved unconditionally. So love from, you know, the significant people in your life, that's what makes one a charismatic adult, if you will. They gather strength from us. And this was interesting, the other. Because the other thing in many of my books and articles is one of the things that helps us to feel valued is if we are engaged in helping other people, it is amazing. You could be 3 years old or 93 years old. We now know that when you help others, it actually lessens stress as long as you're not volunteering 100 hours a week. And what I really loved about this article was published by the center for the Developing Child at Harvard, is. I'd heard the word mattering, but not quite like this. And what they say in that article, starting from birth, the way we hold kids and soothe them helps you to start feeling loved. And they said there are two main components. One is when one is to feel valued, and the other is to add value to other people, which I call, you know, in my books and work, engaged in what I call contributory or charitable activities.
- [57:10]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
- [57:11]
Dr. Robert Brooks
You know that even when we're talking about kids with dmdd, I found when you ask these kids to help out in some way, it really reinforces a sense of dignity in them. They feel at least there's something I could do. Well, so this report came out. I just read it for the first time last week. I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do my next article about. Because it just dovetailed with other things that we start helping kids feel they matter, just even as infants, how we hold them, soothe them, and then as they get older, we have to help them provide opportunities where they feel that they are adding value to others. That's why when I go up to schools about a kid who's having problems or when I talk to parents, but let's say someone going to school, one of the first things I ask is what is one thing this child does at school that helps him or her feel they are making a positive difference, you know, in that regard. And I learned that certainly many years ago when I was principal of that school in the psychiatric hospital, I found even some of these kids with major issues in their lives. When you asked them could they help you, it was just amazing how they were more focused. We all want to feel we make a difference, and now we know it's at any age. In the article that came out today, I talk about research with people between the ages of. Of 34, I think, in 93. And what helped people to even lead longer lives is when they were involved in helping others. And that's one of the strategies I use all the time. As a matter of fact, with young kids, I used to have a little diploma certificate, assistant psychologist. I said, you're really helping me here. I couldn't do it with adolescents because they wanted part of the fee. But anyway. But these were the little things, things that, you know, help people feel these kids feel valued.
- [59:03]
Jenny Urch
Aw, Bob, this was such a treat. Thank you for saying yes. I am such a fan of your work. And it's, you know, it's one of the things that in just in our conversation, people will be able to take away so many ideas of all these questions that we can ask ourselves and questions that we can ask others and ways that we can approach our relationships and our children. Truly such an honor. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood.
- [59:29]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
That was outside.
- [59:33]
Dr. Robert Brooks
One of them? There are several, but one I will never forget. And it has to do with how my father was my charismatic adult. My. My father owned a little, like, candy store in Brooklyn. And one day, I think I was about four years old, one day I went with him to pick up. I don't know what we were picking up candy or whatever at some supplier. And there was a platform, and I was on the platform. And I remember this so vividly. And my father was down. It seemed like 20ft. I'm sure it was like two feet. And he held up his arms, and I was a little hesitant. And someone, you know, for work there, there said, he'll catch you. And I remember then jumping off, and he caught me. And I. For me, I've often used that memory. There are many others, also with my mother. But that particular memory, I said, the reason it's so important to me is he was going to catch me. I could take a risk and he was going to catch me. And that was the kind of man he was. So that was one of the most important memories. And again, I could spend an hour telling you different memories, but I always remembered that he was there, he was going to catch me. I could jump off what seemed like probably Mount Everest at the time, but it was probably a foot or two in that regard.
- [60:56]
Jenny Urch
Okay. What a dream to have a dad that owns a candy store.
- [61:01]
Dr. Robert Brooks
You have to be careful.
- [61:04]
Jenny Urch
It's super unique and cool. Oh, Dr. Dr. Bob Brooks, I so appreciate your time. These, the work that you've done is so influential for parents and even more so as we're entering into this age of AI already actually in it that these things of empathy and resilience and perseverance and tenacity are so important. Thank you for your time.
- [61:22]
Dr. Robert Brooks
Well, you're a delight. Your enthusiasm, as I said, is just great. And thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure.
- [61:31]
Narrator/Song Performer
Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sun shining Sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind.
- [61:42]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Climb.
- [61:43]
Narrator/Song Performer
Some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and take it in oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen Is ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just wanna share with? I just wanna share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world.
- [62:23]
Greenlight Advertiser
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