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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 712: Write It Anyway | Melissa Ferguson, Meet Me in the Margins
01:01:07
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ert. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have a wonderful woman today back for the second time. This time, she's pretty pregnant. Melissa Ferguson. Welcome.
- [00:13]
B
Hi. I'm so, so excited to be on this again with you. It was so fun last time.
- [00:19]
A
So I feel like last time I dropped the ball. You had a kid's book coming out, and this is an adorable kids book. Like, everybody would love it in your home. If you're listening, it's called Our Friendly Farmhouse. And so I get the kids book and I like, oh, yeah, this is great. Like, this woman lives on a farm and she's got ducks and, you know, she's doing all these things. She got these kids, she's got this cute farmhouse. And it wasn't until, I mean, right until the before we were gonna record that I realized that you also write all these novels. And so I just missed the boat on it. And then right after we recorded, I grabbed a couple of them, and so that's what we're going to talk about today. But I was like, oh, my goodness, you just are so eclectic. I would love if you just a little bit reshare your story because I've talked to people. What really stuck with me, Alyssa, is you said, you know, I'm going to spend years, you know, maybe getting my first novel out there. But you're like, it's kind of similar to just going to college. Like, if I spend four or five years, you know, learning this craft, what's the difference between that and going and getting a degree?
- [01:26]
B
Yeah, no, that's totally true. Well, the only difference is it maybe took like the level of like a PhD with how long it took. So we'll just say I have a pphd. But yeah, most people can get a book out for sure faster than I got my first one out. And it is like getting a PhD or not a PhD, just doctorate with you. I mean, just, oh, my gosh, you know what? Don't. It's like, don't podcast interview Melissa when she's 35 weeks pregnant. She's got full on pregnancy brain.
- [02:05]
A
Anyway, the whole point was it's like, you know, I don't think you can expect to turn it around. Like, if you're like, not a writer but you want to be a writer, I don't think you can expect to say, in 12 months, I'm going to be, you know, a pro at this. And then you talk about, can you talk about. Just sort of the. It's leveled up, you know, in small increments where you're like, okay, I started. It took me a while to figure it out. The first, you know, couple go arounds were not necessarily smashing successes, but eventually these books start to sell and now there's movies in the works.
- [02:36]
B
Yeah, well, and not only that, I think book writing is such a cool. It turns out it's a really, really cool career because the books that were even your first ones have this long. Can have this long opportunity. So like Meet Me in the Margins was. Came out. It's my third book out of the 10 or whatever I've written. And it's where I'm flying out to be on set in two days. So in Canada as they're filming it. And so, you know, it's like. But that was years ago that I wrote it. In fact, there was a girl that messaged me on Instagram side point and she was like, I just. I just cast it to be Giselle in the movie. And I'm so excited. I've been reading Meet me in the Margin or no, no, no. She said, I'm so exc. Whatever. And I responded and I said, that is so exciting. Who's Giselle? And she was like, it's in Meet me in the Margins. And I was like, super.
- [03:37]
C
Yes.
- [03:37]
B
But that's how long it's been is that I can't even remember, like, oh, that side character. It's been so many books. So I think, to answer your question properly, I think, yeah, I think it's kind of crazy some now, some people can do it. Some people sit there and say, I want to write a book and I want to publish in six months and I'm going to go for it and I'm going to write it right now. And especially with self publishing, they can go ahead and put that on Kindle. And there you go. It's there. So you can, if that's who you are. But there are different challenging roads with that style that you have to figure out then how to promote your own book, like really intensely. It's all on you, right as we know, have books out. And so to have a traditional publisher kind of shoulder some of that responsibility of marketing promotion and get into a career choice that's like that. Yeah, it definitely might take a really long time. For my first book, you know, I just wrote it without having a clue what I was doing. And it wasn't even in the genre I landed in because nobody wanted it. And so it literally, I wrote three Books. And it was my third one that I ended up getting that triple contract with and really started going. And so it was really slow. I mean, what, what I wrote. I wrote that first book for four years, and then it was like another three or four years before I got my first contract. And so, you know, it's like almost a decade. That's why I have my PPHD that I just made up, you know. But once that happened, I will say, and I, like, I just told my friend who got her first agent, like, once you get your foot in the door, it really can go really fast. And so I'm at the point now where I literally have to kind of hold up my hand and slow myself down and in conversation, slow my publisher down and say, I can't.
- [05:46]
A
I have a baby coming.
- [05:47]
B
I can't do this many books. Yeah, I can't do this fast. Because also, I have learned in publishing, once you're out there, the faster you can put a book out, because readers read a book in like, what, eight hours or a day? The faster they're like, okay, well then I'll move on to your next one tomorrow. And you're like, cool, just give me a year. You know, and so it's just. It just suddenly goes fast and people.
- [06:12]
A
I think what's interesting is that once you're doing it, then people will go backwards. So. So you're to your point of the. One of the very first things you said is basically, there's a long tail effect here that doesn't exist with hardly anything else. No one's going to go back to your first podcast. Really? No one's going to go back to your original YouTube video usually, but often people will go backwards. Book reading, they all start at the beginning, even, and. And read them all. So what did that. I'm. I mean, you must just be kind of tickled.
- [06:48]
B
Yes, I'm super tickled. And it also made me really realize you got to be careful what you sign in your contracts in the beginning. So, like, meet me in the margins, the one that, you know, I'm doing the film thing with on Monday or Saturday or whatever. I gotta pack straight after this podcast is like, that was my very first contract and I had an agent at the time who I signed with who was not very professional and turned out didn't quite know. He's not even in it. I mean, he didn't. He's not even doing it anymore. But he wasn't really. It turns out, kind of anyone can be a literary agent. And so you Got to be careful who you sign with. And there are a lot of people who, who can just, just take everybody but not really spend any attention on anybody and doesn't really have contacts. And they're just, you know, it's kind of like throwing out there, see what you get. And that was my experience. And the contract kind of reflected that. And I didn't know better. I signed things without meaning to. And then, oh, here we are years later and it's like, oh, I wish I kept, you know, certain things different about that contract now that suddenly it actually turned out to turn into a movie. So all that to say word of caution or you know, to the aspiring writer is be really careful who you, who you research, who you sign on with, literary agent wise. And also about your contracts and what you decide to give away rights to or not.
- [08:18]
A
You know, I mean, yeah, that's a really big deal because you know nothing, right? You know nothing. And you get this huge contract. One of the, one of the ones that I thought was tricky. So I had a book deal that fell through, in terms of which I know that's common. Well, I don't know if that's common. I had a book deal that was like signed, did the whole book, and then it fell through because of COVID So they called it like an act of God and they backed out once my book was already done and we ended up being able to self publish and it was a cool story. But what I realized within the contract was that they had the publishing company have what's called first rights of refusal. So, like, you maybe would have to go with them again or you have to at least share your next idea with them. You know, those are. And then I got out of it because they canceled the contract. But, you know, those are the types of things that I'm like, I don't even think I knew what that meant.
- [09:13]
B
Which to clarify, first right of refusal. I have first right of refusal in all my contracts. I think that's standard. And that just means typically they have like 30 days to put in an offer to you before anyone else gets to see it. But you can refuse it, you can say, no, I don't want it, and then go shop it. It's just kind of they want, they want first grabs and often they get it because then you're scared to go wide. You know, you're like, so it totally makes sense. But. But yeah, there are so many things that I feel like I didn't know or I was like, there's no way. My Book will become a movie. Of course they can have xyz, you know, or.
- [09:53]
A
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And here it is. It's okay. So the one that's okay. What's wild to me is that sort of similar to the farmhouse book. Like, when we get on, we're going to talk about our friendly farmhouse. And then like, you know, right before that, I was like, wait a minute. She has a whole other side to her. The same thing. Kind of actually getting ready for this. I was like, oh, meet me in the Margins. I read it right after we podcasted about our friendly farmhouse that Meet Me in the Margins is going to become a movie. And then I feel like within the last, I don't know, months or so, it was like, wait, no, there's another movie and there's another book coming out without a clue.
- [10:30]
B
Yes.
- [10:31]
A
So talk about being an executive producer. What the heck even is that?
- [10:38]
B
You know, I don't even know. I'll be honest. I don't even know. It's super cool sounding, apparently. Okay, so this is what I mean about contracts. I don't know. And clearly I don't read my contracts very well. But. But my agent was like, yeah, this is great. And I was super. So apparently here's what I'm excited about. When it goes up, my name gets to be under, like, executive producer, you know, like, in the running. What does that mean, practically? Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea. I think there's a chance that I have some veto power or. Or potential, like, influence over, like, casting or something. I think there's stuff in there, but I made clear. So who I'm working with, which if this is going out in two weeks or so from. From time of us recording, it's final be. It's with Great American Family. So Pure Flix, Great American media.
- [11:34]
A
Yep.
- [11:35]
B
And so they. I met with them in New York City probably eight months ago and had dinner with their, like, team and their CEO, which their CEO came from Hallmark, Bill Abbott.
- [11:48]
A
He.
- [11:48]
B
He's amazing. They were all amazing. It was so fun. And really, I just told him kind of continuously throughout this contract, like, they were like, do you want to write it? Do you want to write the adaptation? Meet me in the margins or. My Christmas rom com is called the Christmas yes list, and we're going to release that in October, the same day that it comes out as a movie.
- [12:12]
A
So. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is that the second movie then?
- [12:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
So that book, I don't know why balloons are going off. There's like balloons going off in my background.
- [12:25]
B
How did you do that?
- [12:27]
A
I don't know. I don't know why it happened, but it was very appropriate timing. It was like a lot of colorful balloons. Okay, wait, so. Okay, let me get this straight. This is why I can't keep up with what you have going on, because it's so incredibly cool. So this year, on February 17, there is a new book coming out called Without a Clue. And it is a fantastic premise. It's a. It's a similar in terms of. It deals with book people, and I love that there are books for book people that are about book people. So Without a Clue. Similar. We'll talk about that in a little bit. But Without a Clue comes out February 17th. Additionally, this year, there's also a Christmas rom com coming out this year.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And this year, on the same day that the Christmas rom com comes out, there's a movie coming out.
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B
Yes. So two books, Two movies this year is the. Is the plan. But do you want to know?
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A
Plus a baby.
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B
Plus a baby.
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A
Is it twins? No, but look, great. It looks two movies.
- [13:28]
B
I know. I. My life is. Has been a whirlwind since last. Since I got back from that trip where I met with them, and I was like, listen, you take full. I just want to work with you. It's a dream. Take full control of whatever. I don't want to write it. You just. I trust you entirely. And they were like, okay, cool. So they've just kind of run.
- [13:48]
A
Was there any part of you that. I mean, this is probably a ridiculous question because obviously you have so much going on, but was there at all a little part of you that was like, it would be cool to learn how to write a film script?
- [14:02]
B
No.
- [14:03]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [14:06]
B
Nope. I mean. Cause at this point, you know what's cool? What's cool is that people who are professionals and know what the heck they're doing are saying, we would like to shoulder this and pay you. And it's like, for not doing any. You just wrote the book. Let us take it over, and we'll give you this cool title. And you don't have to do anything but smile. That's what I want. So they just emailed me yesterday, and they were like, I mean, this is how out of the loop I am. I literally emailed. So I have a friend locally who I was sitting on the couch one day watching a show, and on my laptop, she pops up for, like, a whirlpool commercial holding, like, a stinky fish or something, and I like, Scream. And I'm like, that's Ariana. What's going on? And it turns out she casually goes down and does commercials with like, for like capital Samuel Jackson, like, legit, really. So anyways, she was like, oh, I'd love to, you know, be in your film if I could as a supportive. So I'm, I message, I reached out to, like, I messaged my agent. I said, hey, I've got this friend who would love to be considered in casting. I don't know, can I message someone? She was like, sure, email this person. So I emailed Great American yesterday. And I was like, hey, can. Can like, my friend be considered? Here's her, like, portfolio. And she was like, yeah. And I was like, side point. She also goes, hey, here's your co star. The co star is Liam. Someone super cool, plays, like Hercules. He's like, he's in Wolverine. I looked him up. He's in a Wolverine movie coming out this year. And I was like, what? He's like a Spartan. And anyway, so super pumped and it's super crazy, but she's like, by the way, we cast all these people, we'd love to consider her.
- [16:04]
A
Wait, is it Liam Hemsworth?
- [16:06]
B
No, no.
- [16:07]
C
Okay.
- [16:08]
B
Liam McIntyre, something like that.
- [16:14]
A
I don't know. A lot of Liam's.
- [16:15]
B
There's a lot of lamps. So anyways, she was like, yeah. So I said, well, by the way, do you know when production's happening? Because I'd love to maybe visit sometime and, you know, casually be in your movie or in. In the movie as an extra, like walking by in the background with my children. And she was like, oh, yes. So sure. It's in New York in slash Canada starting Monday. And so do you want to come? And I was like, and so I'm 35 weeks pregnant. I've spent the last 12 hours, like I'm up in the glow of the night at three in the morning being like, so how far can I fly? Like 35 weeks. Is that cool? So anyways, I've created a whole itinerary and I. I'm gonna try and see if I can slip into the movie with my children. And that is the plan. So anyways, all that to say, I don't know what's going on, clearly, but I get to have this cool title.
- [17:15]
A
Well, and what a cool experience for your kids. How old is the oldest?
- [17:19]
B
Yes. So they're twins and they're 10. So it'd be my twin 10 year olds, my 9 year old, my 3 year old, and my husband and me.
- [17:26]
A
Going, oh my goodness. So the older ones will totally know and will totally always remember.
- [17:33]
B
Yeah.
- [17:33]
A
Going to a movie set.
- [17:35]
B
Oh, and we get to go the next day. 30 minutes away is Niagara Falls. So, you know, it's like a homeschool, like history trip. We'll read about Niagara Falls and then, you know, be extras in a movie and then go home. So I'm really excited.
- [17:51]
A
Extras in your movie. In your movie.
- [17:54]
B
Unless they don't let me. Literally after this. I also have to run my son to get a haircut because I've cut his hair for 10 years and it's terrible. Like terrible. And so they won't let us do it unless I fix him. I'm sure.
- [18:07]
A
What an experience. I just, I love it. I love it. You just went for it and you never know. You never know what's going to happen.
- [18:17]
C
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- [21:43]
A
So what's the timeline? The ROM, the Christmas ROM com comes out. And you said October?
- [21:49]
B
Yeah, sometime.
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A
And the book. What's the timeline for Meet Me in the Margins?
- [21:54]
B
You know, I have no idea, considering yesterday, 12 hours ago, they said they were producing it. And you know what's interesting? They produce. They're like, you're gonna be. They're gonna do it from, like. Like, the 9th through the 20th. It's like, two weeks. Two weeks in a day is how long it takes them to film all the stuff. And then I guess they edit and put it together. Wow, that's so crazy fast. Because we didn't sign our contract until last week was when I signed my contract, and they had everybody casted and ready to go, and they're like, let's do this. So I love them, basically, and I'm really excited. So I don't know when it's going live, but I was like, you know, I wonder if it'll go live, like, in March or something. I don't know.
- [22:36]
A
Okay, this is so exciting. All right, let's talk about the actual book. Meet Me in the Margins. So I have three of your books. I have Cul de sac War, the. The Cul de sac War, the Dating Charade, and I have Meet Me in the Margins Without a Clue is coming out. But there's also, I think, six others besides these. I love this book. Meet Me in the Margins. It is. It's a rom com. It was your. Like, you said it was your first of your, like, three book.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah, those are the first three that you just said.
- [23:04]
A
Okay, so these are the first three. And I mean, this is, like, a total page turner. And I was so bummed that I read it after we talked, because I was like, this is a delightful book. It's clean. And you're just, like, guessing. You're guessing the whole time. So the. The premise of this one is there is a mystery editor for this woman who really wants to write rom coms, but she works for a publishing company now. This is something that people wouldn't know, I think. When I got my first book deal, the one that they ended up canceling once the book was already done, they came to me and they were like, we'd like you to write a book. And I was like, oh, wow, that's awesome. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I thought so, I guess. And then I was like, okay, well, I would like to write this book. And they were like, no, we would like you to write this book. And I was like, oh. That's when I realized that publishing companies Specialize.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah.
- [24:04]
A
So I had no idea. You know, it's like certain ones do certain things and. And they branch out a little bit, but, like, you know, they might be known for something in particular. So in this. This story, Meet Me in the Margins, there is Pennington Publishing. And the woman who runs it does not like rom coms. And she calls them, like, you know, the lowest level of whatever. So can you talk about that part of the whole publishing process?
- [24:34]
B
Well, more specifically, as far as, like, different divisions within publishing. Yeah.
- [24:38]
A
Like, trying to find, like, trying to find your match. I mean, that's actually a part of it that people might not know about at all.
- [24:44]
B
Okay. Yeah. So. So to discuss that, I would say so Without a Clue is my first genre mashup. And it's a rom com cozy mystery. Right. But that's, like, kind of taboo stuff, you know, like, how are they, like, marketing's like, what are we gonna do with a mashup? Like, you gotta stay in a lane. You pick a lane, you stay in the lane. Stay in the lane forever. Right. Like, there are authors who are. Who is it? Nora Roberts. She writes, like, scary stuff. Maybe under J.D. robb, I believe. But her romance is under. So it's like she is two names.
- [25:24]
A
And probably two publishers.
- [25:26]
B
I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Or not.
- [25:28]
C
No.
- [25:29]
A
Or she has to be two names.
- [25:31]
B
Yeah. Or two names, whatever. But Sophie can tell it was the same way. She had multiple authors. I've been on panels, like, we're at festivals before where, like, authors will be like, hi, I'm Joanne, but you know me as Missy, blah, blah, blah, or Savannah or Giselle. And I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And I think that's interesting that, like, yeah, publishers really hone in on, like, this is our lane. We only do this. And if you waiver at all, we are going to have multiple zoom meetings about it and freak out. So I felt like I basically had to pull together a PowerPoint presentation for my editor. When I pitched this idea for Without a Clue, that is still 90% rom com. It's just a tiny bit of mystery. Like, meet me in the Margins. But I mean, boy, was it a stressful thing to try and explain. And they were like, we don't know, Melissa. And finally, finally they were like, okay. And so. Which I also feel like I get really hyped behind something. Like, I could get really excited about selling vacuum cleaners if I, like, believe in it. So I don't know. But all that's to say, yes, publishers are really intense. They're like, this is our specialty. So, like, Harper Muse is a good example. They're an imprint within my publishing house. And they're like, we only do historical and women's fiction. Like, we're going to do literary. Those are our three things. So, like, and then Thomas Nelson is like, we're only going to carry this, this, and this. Nelson Books is another imprint that I published with. At Thomas Nelson. We're only doing the nonfiction. And then I published with Tommy Nelson, the children's book. And they're like, we're only children. So it's just. Yeah, you got to find your lane, and you can break the rules, but there are so many rules, and you have to be careful which ones you can break. And there are only certain points in your career when you can break them. Sure.
- [27:31]
A
Like, once you're an executive producer.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah.
- [27:35]
A
So that's part of the premise of this book, is there is this woman named Savannah. So this is a movie that's coming out. Nobody knows when, but it will be coming out. Meet me in the margins. Nobody. Nobody knows when it's coming, but it's so fun to read the book, and then you're gonna be able to go see the movie. So Savannah is this main character, and she works at a publishing house. So you're kind of getting a little bit of the behind the scenes, if you are a book person of, like, the things that you maybe wouldn't know. So one of the things you said is, like, you know, there's these writers conferences, and, you know, they say eight. The eight authors attending this weekend's conference represent 46 of our sales. And that often happens. It's like a couple people skyrocket to the top. You don't know who they're going to be, and there's all this kind of, like, schmoozing going on, you know, and that's a part of the book. But Savannah, she works for this publishing company, and she really wants to be a writer. She says, being an editor at Pennington Publishing is my job. Being a writer is my dream, my very personal dream. But she likes writing rom coms. And the founder of this Pennington, Ms. Pennington, she doesn't like it. She doesn't like commercial fiction. She loathes it. And romance, according to her, is the lowest form. Use the word twaddle. And she's sort of in this conundrum right. Where she wants to do this, but she feels like she can't. So then, you know, someone ends up seeing it. It's a mystery person. I mean, the whole premise is so cool. I guess. I talked to someone recently and they said that actually that people are always curious about the premise. So like the premise of Without a Clue is that all these writers are on a cruise ship and then one of them gets killed who did it? You know. But the person said that the overarching theme is actually not as difficult to come up with as the day to day work because you really only have to come up with one or two overarching themes a year. Would you agree with that? Do you feel similar or do you feel like that overarching theme of. Because this is a really unique meet me in the margins. I'm like, this is a really unique idea where like she's not supposed to be writing and then someone's mystery editing and they have it in this special room and like she doesn't know who it is. And they kind of started like it feels like she's falling for this person but doesn't know. I'm like, that's a really unique idea.
- [29:45]
B
Well, I think I. So I think one way, one thing I do that might not be normal but has worked for me is that I don't write. I don't think of myself as like, you know, I guess I am a career writer at this point and I'm going to write. But if I lost my passion for it, like I'm not going to write according to what I think will sell because I think this will be trending. I write because it's fun and I think there's purpose. I like the messages that I'm giving and I feel like it gives me purpose. But also if I got to where I hated it or, or didn't feel passion for it and it was just a job, I wouldn't do it. Which means because we're financially stable enough, I can just do the stay at home mom thing. Yay. That would be fine, like solely and just do the homeschooling. And honestly my life would be a lot less complicated. But I really love what I do and it's super fun. And so I love writing. And so I only write what sounds fun to. To do. And so I'm not paying attention to like tropes. I don't care what tropes are. I don't, I don't know, I just kind of do what. Which might drive my publisher crazy because then I say, well, this sounds fun. And they're like, oh my gosh, know, trying to follow along. But I mean, it's Just like, what's the kind. What sounds like a world I would want to live in for the next six months reading, because I'm going to write that and be super involved in it. So, like, for me, meet me in the Margins came because I visited my publishing house in Nashville. And before I went, a couple author friends were like, make sure you visit the arc room, which is this advanced reader copy room. They're like. They made it sound to me a lot more exciting than technically, whatever it is, which is basically like a small storage closet. Like, I remember. I remember one of the bosses at my publisher was like, melissa, you made it sound super, like, romantic and whimsical, and it's literally a storage closet. But I was like, you know, it sounded amazing. Like, you open the door, they were like, you can just take books that haven't come out yet. You just. They just let you have it. And so I was really excited when I went to tour my publishing house. I was like, can I see the ark room? And sure enough, they opened the door, and there's, like, stacks of books that have not been released yet. And they're like, yeah, take whatever you want. And so, like, of course I did. I'm like. And I got, you know, like, piles high. And then while I was there, if you see in the dedication. In the dedication to it, it says, to all the wonderful people at my own publishing house, house, with a special tip of the hat to Kim Carlton and Mike Bazowski for living out their own inspiring love story. So they are. Kim is a friend at editor friend. Mike is the contracts lawyer at Thomas Nelson. So inspiration not fully direct, but that Valentine's Day courthouse scene, like, was almost verbatim. Like, we were out to dinner, and they said the story, and I was like, this story is insane. Insane. I'm gonna write it in. So I did, and I wrote that in. And actually, this was kind of like their. A wedding gift to them from me because they got married, like, when it came out. But it was like, I heard the sweet story of how kind of he kind of wooed her when she was this cutesy editor new to the publishing house. And all of a sudden, this contracts lawyer had a reason to, like, stop by the third floor every day and say hello to all the ladies. How is everybody doing? And then if Kim wasn't there, he'd just circle back, you know, a few hours later, and it was super cute. And so between those two ideas came, you know, what I thought would be whimsical. You know, basically, like, A Narnia whimsical turret full of magical books. Like, how fun would that be? So, you know, I kind of feel like the books that I read are like, I mean, literally this. The hobbit is right next to me right now. You know, it's like, these are the kinds of things I want to read. And so if I can find them and write about it, kind of like a magical but real thing happening, you know?
- [34:13]
A
Yes. That's like bringing whimsy into the 2000s.
- [34:17]
B
Yeah.
- [34:18]
A
I love it. And you never. Like, so many people meet their. Their people, their partner, the person that they love, their best friends or whatever at work.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
And so you. But you never consider, like, oh, at the publishing house. And so the arc. That's kind of like what I'm saying. If you're a book person and you love books, but you've never really kind of considered, how do these books get out into the world? I love that there's a lot of these little insights. So the arc room, the advanced reader copy. I mean, I remember the first time I got one, you know, like, and it's stamped on there in the back. Usually has just like, the publicist information. It's not like a regular back of the book. And it says not for resale. And then at this point, I get a lot of them. I probably get so many that I'm like, I can't even really. Like, we have like a whole bin system.
- [35:01]
B
You can make your own arc room.
- [35:04]
A
Where am I going to put all these? So, like, that part of it, the part of being rejected, you know, that's in there. And how does that work? And so I just think it is. It's like this whimsy in a. In a place that maybe you've never considered.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah. Well, I do put rejection. I love writing bookish books. Like, without a Clue is also about an author. My next book is actually now. Now that my publisher likes it. They're like, oh, okay, all right, carry on, Melissa. In fact, now you have to. Because I even said, maybe I don't want to do rom comistrated. They're like, no, you must. So now they, you know, it's like they turn. They turn the ship and they're like, we're not turning back. But yeah. So I really like writing about the inside of an author's life into kind of like rom com format, partly because I understand it. It's way less research for me. And it's interesting. You write what that's interesting to you? You know, like, I don't know how to be an anesthesiologist. That does not sound fun. That sounds hard. And I would have to research so much to write a book.
- [36:06]
A
That's true. Otherwise who if an anesthesiologist hardware to say read it Then they'd be like this woman is an idiot.
- [36:14]
B
Yes. And let me write a million reviews on why. Right? And so I do so many YouTube videos and watch a lot of needles going into a lot of back before I figure out how to write a scene right from that pov. And so it's way fun to write the author kind of workplace sort of thing for me.
- [36:33]
C
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- [38:47]
A
Okay, so some of the edits that this mystery editor writes, which are just like, a delightful. And that's a part of it, too, man. You've got an editor and. Is the baby coming?
- [38:56]
B
Yeah. No.
- [38:58]
A
Okay.
- [38:59]
B
Baby's moving. Baby's not coming, right?
- [39:01]
A
All right, Just run. If the baby.
- [39:03]
B
That'd be the most epic.
- [39:06]
A
You gotta go to Canada. It would be a good podcast. Okay, so. So, like, the. Like, the. This mystery editor is like, start is weak. This is unoriginal, nauseating, and directly plagiarized from every Hallmark movie in the last year. No man in his right mind would say this. Have you ever actually kissed someone? I mean, it's just, like, so entertaining. It goes all the way through. But then there's this heartwarming part where she's like, oh, you know, there was a positive comment. You know, this is good. Do more of this. So it just like, this sweet, even that. Like, if you were to think, what does it really feel like when someone sends. You know, I mean, I've gotten one that's like, you're gonna have to restructure this whole order. And you're like, oh, it's like a knife to the heart. But also, it really does make things better.
- [39:52]
B
Yeah. No. My first editor that I had was ruthless in her edits to me. So, in fact, I think there's a point in there. I probably put it in. I kept trying to put it in books, so I'm sure I put it in somewhere where it was like, you know, from the ashes of this manuscript will rise a book. I believe it. And I think I put that as one of his edits because it was so, like, how can you hate me so much? And like, also show, like, belief in me at the same time? But you know what? She was dead on, I will say too, in that she said, this is a great book. Like, at the end of it, she was like, this one. And she had edited my first two and she was like, okay, good. You know, she believed in me enough to sign me on, so she believed in me. But when I got to meet me in the margins, she. She was like, this. This is it. And sure enough, she was like. She was like Kathleen Kelly and you've got mail. Like, she knew this one would take off. And I thought that was pretty interesting, but also super painful. So I feel like my relationship with my editor is reflected in that. Or my former editor editor, who I really appreciate and made made a huge difference. But boy, was it hard.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah, and I love it because it's very entertaining. Like this mystery editor says, for the love of all, pick different names. This is not an opera. You can have Ronaldo, you can have Cecilia, but you cannot have both. If you use Suddenly one more time, I'm going to die from overexposure. Cut the adverbs. I mean, just great. And it just shows too, also the intuition of an editor. I've always thought that that's really intriguing. How do they even know what to cut and what not to cut? And so there's insight there. So there's just a lot. If you are a book person, the book Meet Me in the Margins, this is the one that's coming out in a movie. And then also this new one without a Clue, which is about a luxury book cruise featuring the Fabulous 7, the glittering cast of seven best selling authors who all come together and you know, there's a murder. So if you're a book person, you're going to love all these little insights into the book world. But then there's other sort of subplots too. One of them in Meet Me in the Margins is that there is a sibling rivalry a little bit. So can you talk about, you know, is that like personal experience? Is that someone, you know, where there's like the big sister, little sister, little competition? Well, actually quite a bit of competition because one ends up with me, you know, being engaged to the other one's ex boyfriend.
- [42:20]
B
Right, yeah. So that. And let's all be supportive as a family ever. You know what? I heard a story and I just thought, I thought that was interesting. Just likewise, I heard a story and I think that is how that came in, because in the story with Savannah she has been with her boyfriend forever and ever and ever. And then. And then it turns out her sister, her overachieving perfectionist sister, somehow that boyfriend, you know, has one magical run in with her. And then I think. I'm not even sure it breaks up with Savannah. And then. And then now when you're getting to the story, she's engaged, the sister is engaged, his boyfriend, and the parents are like, let's be supportive of her. She found her true love. And I remember reading a story or something at the time and thinking, it's fascinating because it's all about your point of view that you're coming from. The story came from, you know, in the real life story came from the perspective of, you know, I had that. I found my true love. This is my true love. And it is the former boyfriend of my sister or somebody else.
- [43:27]
A
I totally get it. They have it at church once where there was this worship pastor and he was married and had kids and then ended up with one of the choir members. And she. This is like when Facebook was really big, and she would be like, God brought me my man. And we were like, I don't think that's how it works. But her perspective was very different.
- [43:50]
B
The evil brought you your man. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So. Well, the perspective in. Yes, yes. In this story was. And, you know, maybe there's a movie like this too, where it's just like, oh, but once you find your true one, let's be supportive. And everyone in that story, the reaction was super positive. Not in yours. That was. That's like, you. You're married with kids.
- [44:15]
A
I mean, some people were positive about it.
- [44:16]
B
They were like, oh, my gosh.
- [44:18]
A
You know how that goes.
- [44:20]
B
But. But I thought it was interesting. And I thought, you know, it's all about the way you. You see it. Because what about this other girl? She's been totally trashed, and now she has. Now what does that look like? She has to walk through wedding plans and being a supportive sister and family member to this, where everyone else is cheering this on. And it's just interesting thinking about love that way. So that's how that happened. And also, I am the evil sister. So that is when people say, like, what character of all your books do you resonate with? I'm like, that girl. Which is that Giselle. No, that's not.
- [44:56]
A
No, that's not. Giselle actually is a really small part. That Olivia is the sister.
- [45:02]
B
Yes. Okay. Giselle's somebody at work, right?
- [45:05]
A
Yeah, Giselle's someone at work. Yeah.
- [45:06]
B
Okay, there we go.
- [45:07]
A
I was like, such a small character that I didn't even put her in my notes, But I do remember her, but she was not. She's not one of the mains, which. That's kind of an interesting thing too. You know, you wonder how deep into the story do they go with characters? Because, you know, there's like, a couple main ones, and then there's. You know, I feel like it's like a layered out. You know, you're like, okay, there's tier two. Here's tier three. Like, I remember Giselle, but, like, she would have been pretty down the list.
- [45:34]
B
I know, it's. I don't know how they do that. I don't know how they hire on. I'm about to learn. Tell you what, you can have me back on after I go on set and see what the heck this is about and how they do anything. And I'm super pumped because I get to meet these nice folks, like the star, Merritt Patterson, I believe is her name. And she. I watched. I actually, with the kids. We watched a movie with my husband the other day, like, one of her movies. And I was like, this is who it's gonna be. And, like, that was really fun to see your imaginary person come to life. And, like, wow, she's gonna do a great job. Like, anyway, what a thing. It's so fun.
- [46:14]
A
So she's gonna be Savannah.
- [46:16]
B
Yeah, so she's playing Savannah, and she's really cool. And, you know, it's a really weird world because, like, on Instagram, all of a sudden, they're, like, following me or messaging me, and we're, like, being friends, and I'm like, what is this world? You know? And, like, also, I don't know what I'm doing. So then I get people who are like, by the way, I'm an actress. Here's my portfolio. And I'm like, that is super. I don't know anything, you know, or whatever, but it's super fun.
- [46:42]
A
Your world is expanding, and it didn't happen overnight. And because it's expanding, I mean, you. I mean, you have got the whole farm thing going on. I mean, to talk about the things that you have going on, right? You're at the tail end of a pregnancy. You've got a whole farm operation. You have this kid, this adorable kids book, and then all of these things. And now it's expanding even more. All these books is expanding into movies, and it's expanding your kids worlds, too. What a. What a thing. I love. I think it's so inspiring. Let's talk about this. One of the things that that gets brought up in the book is, and this is something I think people would relate to. Savannah says, writing is what makes me happy. She likes to write similar to you. This is fun.
- [47:21]
B
Okay.
- [47:22]
A
But then she says, how on earth am I supposed to be able to manage a website, run a bi monthly newsletter, talk daily on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube and Twitter, and still have time to actually write books? What are these insane expectations?
- [47:39]
B
Yes. Do you know, I remember that key. I may not remember a whole lot about all my books, but I remember my marketing manager and editor were like, you need to cut this tangent rabbit hole down. And I was like, I will not. I will not, because it is how I feel. And I think I probably cut like one sentence or something, but I was like, I'm keeping the rest because it is so much. Well, this is. This goes back to like the last question. Which character? Like the sibling rivalry, the girl, the villain girl. That's me. Because I have had at the time a multitasking too intense problem. And so, like, the past three or four years, I've been working on a stable level of multitasking. But I remember as I'm like, writing that book, I had a bike desk, a bike work desk. So I was wearing my baby bike desking with like a pot of soup over here, writing my book and, like, listening to something, and I was like, it's a little nuts looking. And I wanted to, like, you know, push. Pushing a character so far that they get. They snap and go, wow, this is way too much. Life is not about just piling on. We can get spread too thin. We need to slow down. And so that was my realization. So that's what I made a theme in Meet Me in the Margins is slowing down, savoring, like, life and the important things about life. So. And then also putting in the random tangent about do it all.
- [49:16]
A
And it's so true. And you know people, when they come and they talk, they talk to me about. It's not often, but like a couple times people will be like, I really want to write a book. And the first thing they'll say is, but I don't have a social media following.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah.
- [49:28]
A
And I just think about all the good books I've read, like the Hobbit of people who do not have a big social media following.
- [49:36]
B
But, you know, could the Hobbit have made it today without a social media? It would have been very rare. I. I am of the belief that, well, okay. And maybe you can correct me on this, but like, I think it's really hard to succeed in the publishing world without making half of your job about promoting your own books via something, via website or newsletter or social media. Because. But at the same time, I guess my agent has some authors on there who don't have a social media following at all. And they're great. So. But I'm like, how did, how did she find them then? That's probably just through networking because like, otherwise she's like a. She's like a fancy pants, you know, agent, you know, and so I don't know if she's even at like the book conferences, you know, Like, I was so excited to sign with her and the agency, but it was like, because I had built, you know, already had books out, you know, and I'd already had friends who were in the writing world and they were like, let me connect you. And so that's how that worked. But it's like, how could I have done that in the beginning? I don't even think I would have had access to access to get to know her. So I don't know. What do you think on that?
- [50:57]
A
You know, I think it goes both ways. So I have written little blurbs for people and said things like, this seems like it's a really good topic though. They want to take it for their pitch thing. This seems like it's really good topic. There doesn't seem to be books like this out there. And here are 10 authors that I've interviewed that have been fabulously successful that are not on social media at all. So someone will be like, Michaeline Duclef. She wrote a book called Hunt Gather Parent. She has a new book coming out called Dopamine Kids. No, social media zero. But she worked for npr and she's also really, you know, so I don't know. I think often these people are, you know, they have worked in their field for a really long time. They're a professor, so maybe they're really connected and those types of people are going to help get their book out into the world or it's just a book that is really needed. Like, you know, my friend Angela Hanscom, she founded this program called Timbernook. She wrote a book called Balanced and Barefoot and it's about getting kids outside. And I think it was really needed. Did it still is. I'm like, she just joined Instagram. You're like, that's not fair.
- [51:58]
B
Did she say how she got her contracts though? I want to know the jump she.
- [52:05]
A
Had an article that went viral. She wrote an article about fidgeting.
- [52:08]
B
Okay.
- [52:09]
A
And how fidgeting is actually good for kids. And she said it went viral to the point where she was speaking at a TED, TEDx. She had a TEDx talk with Johnson and Johnson and there was like, you know, 15,000 people there. And her article got picked up all over the world, this fidgeting article. So maybe for some of these people there's a, there's a break like that and then all of a sudden you're known and, and that's where it comes from. So I, I do think it's such a tricky thing. And your point is? It's like there are Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. It's like. And you got to make sure you have people on your. How many people are you subscribed to your newsletter? I mean, it's not like it's just one thing.
- [52:53]
B
No, there's so much. Well, and in all your examples, I think too you're speaking about, you've. The ones you mentioned, they're all non fiction. And I wonder people. So non fiction versus fiction is different because in nonfiction I feel like your platform can be physical too. Because if you're a professor, they're hoping that you can sell so many copies at your university every year to students. It's a required. Blah, blah, blah. It can gain prestige in the academic field that way you, you have that credit to your name. And in the fiction world though, if you don't have anything, like, you don't. You're not writing articles because like it's. What are you going to write about, right? Unless. Unless you build notoriety or, you know, like I've seen some who are like, went famous for being cupcake bakery owners or something and then. But they went famous for it and then were able to add on fiction. I don't know, it's just.
- [53:54]
A
That's hard too because you're building up. You brought it up at the very beginning. It's like people really expect you to stay in your lane. So they're like, well, I'm here for the cupcakes. Like, I know, I don't want to read your book. Oh yeah, it's interesting. So that part's in there. Actually. I love it that you just talked about slowing down. Which is so funny since you're heading into Canada and Niagara Falls at 35 weeks pregnant with your four children to go be executive producer. But you gotta like, take it as it comes, right? And have these cool experiences you did. I loved this part in the book, Meet Me in the Margins, it turns out racking up accomplishments doesn't mean anything. Life is not simply some game where the person with the most plaques wins. It's not about a perfectly organized home or acquiring degrees you'll never use, or the number of inches around your waistline, or most important or most especially, counting steps. And that's like a throwback to Olivia. Life is about movement and pause, work and rest. It's about relationships, about valuing others and truly tracking the time to show they are precious. About valuing yourself, too, in your uniquely given, whispered into your DNA goals and dreams. What a part of a fiction book.
- [55:03]
B
I love that we're talking right now because I haven't visited Meet Me in the Margins in years. And if I go see them in Canada for this, I'm gonna be, like, very excited now. Because before I was like, what was it about? Okay, it's about a misery. Where's Giselle? Somebody show me who Giselle is.
- [55:23]
A
I'll remind you of some of the other characters. William Pennington. Trace Green. Lila Claire Donovan. This is a great. The characters are great. I love how they all interweave. And I just am thrilled and tickled for you and how you're sharing it. I think it inspires people. Like, maybe there's more. Maybe there's more. Maybe there's more to this life, you know, than I ever thought. And I'm going to go for it and keep trying. And you just never know what's going to happen, what doors that's going to open. So Without a Clue comes out on February 17th. Meet me in the Margins is the one that's. It's. I mean, it is fantastic. Such a page turner. This one is turning into a movie. And then the Christmas rom com, which.
- [56:04]
B
You said is called the Christmas Yes List. The Christmas, which is a really funny premise. You want to hear what it's about?
- [56:11]
C
Yes. Yep.
- [56:12]
B
Okay. All right. So I watched this tick tock video ready, which is not the place to start. That does not sound very educated. I know I can. I should have said so I was researching and there was an article that said, but now in this video, some guy was trying to do like, he. He basically had a fear of rejection. And so he walked into a Walmart and asked. Was asking strangers, like, ask these two girls to throw yarn at him, hoping because why? That's a really embarrassing thing. And then obviously he would get a no from it. But the problem was they were like, okay. And then they're lobbing. You Know they're throwing yarn at him, right? And he's like, this is not going according to plan or whatever. And from there came a thought of like, oh, how funny would that be if a girl who is a complete rejection phobia person, a total people pleaser, someone who just cannot handle rejection, decides she reads some well known self care guru book about, you need to try rejection therapy on yourself. Do this challenge. Here's this challenge. By Christmas, go to total strangers, see if you can collect 10 rejections by Christmas. Work on that kind of behavioral therapy. But while she's doing it, she actually meets a guy and doesn't realize he has a. There's a. There's another book out basically that's about acceptance therapy where you know, if someone who's basically like your Grinch workaholic, who can't say no to life, who can't slow down, who can't just enjoy things, needs to practice and have a challenge of saying yes to more things, right? So they run into each other and then basically she asks him a ridiculous thing and then he, to her shock, continues to, like, say yes. And they continue to get into more chaotic, but really funny, but really romantic, but very Christmassy, but really festive holiday chaotic situations. And so it's kind of like how to lose a guy in 10 days. Twist. Christmas Rom com. Clean. There you go.
- [58:24]
A
I love it. I love it. The books are fantastic. They are total page turners. I read a quote recently, it was like, the only thing that matters for an author is that the reader wants to turn the page. Oh, that's it. It was like baseline. That's all that matters. And I was like, that really is true. And you want to turn the page. You're like, who is this mystery guy? And there's all these twists and all these other books have phenomenal premises. The, the. I don't even know if it's premises, Whatever the cul de sac war. I mean, you read the premise and you're like, oh, you know, we're coming up to Valentine's Day. Like, get your wife a book. Get her the dating charade. I mean, this is so Valentine's looking. And if you got older teens, like, you know, it's like, especially your teen girls, probably like, these are fun and they're totally clean. And you have book club kits on your website. You've got discussion questions. So they're made for community too. You know, you read it together and join in with some friends and, you know, there's just, there's discussion questions, right? In the book. But if you go to your website too, there's like book club kits. So just a lot there for you to build community with your people. And I'm so excited for you people. Follow along on your Instagram or wherever you're at on social media. All the things probably you really do a tremendous job of like, sharing so people can probably see what's the trip like to Canada and this whole kind of, you know, being a homeschool mother with a farm and stepping into the great unknown. What's that like? So, Melissa, so excited for you. I'm so excited for all of us to get to watch the movies and read the books this year. Have a blast being executive producer and with this new baby. Thanks for being here.
- [60:00]
B
You know what, thank you for reminding me. I'm gonna email him now and be like, do I get a, Can I get like a card that says executive producer on it? When you give me a Sharpie name tag, can I please have that and take a picture and keep it forever? So Jenny was wonderful to chat with you as always. So I'll talk to you later.
- [60:17]
A
Yeah. Thanks for being here. Sa. Sam.
- [63:48]
B
Lifelock. How can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [63:52]
A
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [63:55]
B
What do I do? My refund though.
- [63:57]
A
I'm freaking out.
- [63:58]
B
Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [64:00]
A
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- [64:05]
B
I'm so relieved. No problem. I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [64:08]
C
One in four was a fraud paying American.
- [64:11]
A
Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year.
- [64:14]
C
Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.