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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 713: Disentangling Faith From Fear | Jeremy Vuolo and Jinger Duggar Vuolo, You Always Belong
00:53:15
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- [00:00]
Jeremy Volo
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [00:35]
Jenny Ertz
Welcome to 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And you'll never guess who's here today. Jeremy and Ginger Volo. Doug E. Volo. I don't know if I want you do for that Ginger, but welcome to you both.
- [00:48]
Ginger Volo
Thank you so much for having us, Jenny. We're so excited.
- [00:51]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah, thank you so much.
- [00:52]
Jenny Ertz
I definitely watched the 19 Kids and Counting with our family.
- [00:56]
We loved it.
- [00:57]
We've got five kids so I mean I just think it's fun to see all those dynamics and also like we don't have that many cousins so we've always thought like what a cool thing, you know, then your kids and then up having all these cousins and so anyways, I just loved it and it's an honor to get a chance to talk with you both. I've read several of your books. I've read People Pleaser, Breaking free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations and then Becoming Free indeed here I know, Jeremy, you've got a book where you wrote it together, a love story, the hope we hold. And then very exciting. There's a new kids book coming out called you always Belong. So Ginger is. Oh, it's a beautiful book. Is it interesting? I just think your story is such an interesting one because you talk so much about being a people pleaser and coming from which would make sense, a family. We always got family around then you're like, you get married and you move and you're like this is kind of nerve wracking. And yet you have. I just think you've been so brave with writing all of these books and, and sharing deep messages. I think that people need to hear. Can you talk about your journey from. You know that you talk all about.
- [02:03]
The people pleasing and the people pleasing.
- [02:04]
Book, but also in becoming free indeed about just deciding that you're going to put all this information out into the world. Even though it's super, I would imagine super nerve wracking.
- [02:17]
Ginger Volo
Oh yeah, for sure. So yeah, it was quite the journey that God took me on. I was raised on reality TV from the age of around nine or 10 until I was 27. I was on my family's reality show and anyhow, so growing up in that place, it was interesting. We were known for a lot of things. And so one of those also was the teachings of Bill Gothard, who was a teacher that claimed to speak for God but didn't. So it took me years of developing, figuring out what I believed in. My own faith journey with the Lord and God was so kind to bring me out of that teaching. And that was what my book, Becoming Free Indeed talks all about. And then fast forwarding after that book, I was looking back on that experience of writing, and I was thinking about how much I struggled with people pleasing. And I wanted to speak on that topic. It was something that I knew I had wrestled with, even going into sharing my story about coming out of those teachings, because I was afraid that I was gonna lose friendships over it. I was afraid that maybe loved ones would not agree or it would make tensions there. And so it was amazing, though, because as I was writing that book, it was me working through people pleasing as I was writing, Becoming Free indeed. So I was speaking to that topic of how we all wrestle with it. People pleasing in and of itself is not always bad, right? Like, we're designed for community. We want people to like us. We want to have friends, and that's how God designed us. And at the same time, we also realize that there's an unhealthy craving for. For needing people, needing something from people, so sucking them dry of everything we can get from them to satisfy our own, like, desires. And so that's where people pleaser. I wrote that book. And then as we were talking about it, we had some interesting stories about, like, why we've jumped into this kid's book. But going back and looking at my upbringing, there was a lot of, you know, pressures that I probably put on myself that I would think, oh, people expect something from me. They want me to be this certain personality on the show or this is who they see me as. And so I kind of lean into that and, like, be captured by what people thought a lot. And so through all these books, there's. There's, like, a kind of a theme and a thread that's woven through. So freedom, finding freedom from. If it's that, you know, cult, like, teaching, or if it's finding freedom from people pleasing and fear of man, then that's kind of what I've been writing on.
- [05:07]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, and I love it, and I love how it weaves into this children's book. And I always love. I talk about this a lot. But, like, when there's a book that an adult can read and then a book that a kid can, you know, you read with your kids, and there's some similar themes and you're kind of learning together, like side by side, so you always belong. And you talked about how when you got married, so Jeremy is a pastor, you get married and all of a sudden you're like, away from your family. And I think that people often think if you come from a large family, you're super social.
- [05:35]
Ginger Volo
Yeah.
- [05:35]
Jenny Ertz
But I think actually it's kind of the opposite because you're used to just being with your siblings or your cousins. And so you. You didn't need that. You, you know, you don't need to talk to anybod because you've got all these people around. And so you end up with, you know it. And you're at this church and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm, like, super nervous. I'm having all this social anxiety. So these feelings of belonging, whether it's stepping away from Gothard and then writing about the teachings, like, are, you know, are these people still going to love me? Are they still going to care about me? And then also moving away from a large family to a whole other other state and, and kind of starting this new life and you are able to. To slot it into a kid's book. I mean, that's a great thing. You always belong. Knowing God's love and finding your place. Jeremy, I'm super curious about how. So you go to hang out with Ben and Jessa at the.
- [06:26]
What's it called? Big Sandy.
- [06:28]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah, that was where one of their conferences for the Institute of Basic Life Principles, they would have a conference at Big Sandy, Texas, every year. It's the family conference, right?
- [06:39]
Ginger Volo
Yes.
- [06:40]
Jeremy Volo
And I had met Ben and we hit it off and he invited me out to just kind of hang out with him and Jess. And so of course, I meet the family, meet Ginger, and that was. That was my introduction to that whole world as well. I had heard of the Duggars. I'd heard the TV show. I'd seen a couple of episodes just kind of passing by as other people were watching it. But that was really my introduction. And then it was my introduction to that teacher as well, Bill Gothard. And like, I kind of just stepped into this world, not really knowing what to expect. And then you meet a pretty girl and say, hey, I like her. And so, yeah, that was my first exposure into the world, meeting Ginger. And it wouldn't be till the next year that we'd start, you know, dating or courting and having a relationship. But, yeah, that was. Ben introduced me.
- [07:28]
Jenny Ertz
Isn't that interesting. You both kind of stepped into worlds that were unknown to you, but both of you did. You know, you step into this world where there's a lot of kids and this cultish, like, teaching. Very strict. You know, you. There was a phrase in here, are you stricter than Jesus? This is from Becoming free. Indeed. And I think it's really relatable. I think that there are a lot of people that grew up with these really strict concepts that are cloaked in Bible words. I mean, even the. Even the phrase Institute for Base. What is it called? Basic life principles.
- [08:01]
Ginger Volo
Yes.
- [08:01]
Jenny Ertz
You're like, oh, well, okay, great. And a lot of it. You wrote about all of them. It's so interesting, Ginger. Like, you're writing about authority, and you're writing about. You could just see how someone would get tangled up in it. It's like, there's so much nuance to. And it's. It seems really good. So, Jeremy, can you talk about. Because you weren't from this world, this IBLP world. Did I say that right? Yeah. You're not from this world, and, you know, you. But you spent a lot of time learning about it. Can you talk about making the decision, like, it was like you watched, like, 60 hours of the film to, like, get a sense of what it was. So talk about deciding to do that. And then what were your first reactions to that?
- [08:41]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah, so that was something that Mr. Duggar had asked me to do because I think he knew I was coming from a completely different theological framework. And so I think he was saying, okay, I don't know where this guy's coming from theologically, So I want him to be grounded in what we believe and what we taught Ginger. So he asked me to listen to the. Yeah, the basic seminar of Bill Gothard. I went on and listened to the advanced seminar as well, then the Financial Freedom Seminar. And for people in that setting, they would go, oh, yeah, I remember that. And so it was over 60 hours of teaching. Bill Gothard had more than 60 hours of teaching. But that sort of, you know, dipped my toe into the pond of, okay, what is this world theologically? And like you said, Jenny, I was a pastor, so I was already pastoring a church. I was already pretty well established. I was 27 years old. I knew what I believed, I knew why I believed it. I could defend it from the Bible. And it was really helpful, honestly, because it helped me understand, Ginger. It helped me understand. You know, at the time, I didn't know we'd get married, but it now even helps us in our marriage to understand ways that she's had to rethink who God is or how God interacts with us. And so actually, when we started courting, we were listening to some of those together because I had promised Mr. Duggar I would listen through all of them, and I hadn't yet finished. And so we would listen to them together. And Ginny, honestly, it was like, the best thing for us because I would pause the tape and say, or the videotape, you know, what is this in 90s? And I'd say. I'd pause the video and say, hey, did you hear what he just said? She'd go, yeah, what is that? I would say, hey, let's turn to this passage. I'd open up the Bible and say, you know, this says the exact opposite of what he just said. And it was helpful for her to go, oh, interesting. Yeah, that always didn't sit well with me. Or, oh, that's curious. And so we just had hours of conversation. And really, honestly, I didn't know at the time. I didn't know Bill Gothard, you know, the extent of what he was teaching. I was just kind of like, oh, yeah, let's see what this guy says. And at first, he's got some interesting stuff to say, you know, like. And most teachers who get a following, like, are going to have interesting stuff to say. And, yeah, there's a reason people follow them. But then as I started getting deeper and deeper, I started realizing, oh, this. Some of this is problematic, you know.
- [11:04]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. What was your response to that, Ginger? Because you talked about how Jeremy was like, this guy. I mean, he's got some good things to say. Obviously, some of it is just off, but he's got some good things to say. And of course you would like, if you're going to gain a following of people, some of your stuff probably has to. To have some shred of truth to it. You got to have charismatic personality. But you say to Ginger, he's not a Bible teacher, and Ginger were. You were, like, kind of, like, freaked out. Like, what?
- [11:31]
Ginger Volo
I wasn't sure what to make of it initially, but then I think because we were going through those videos very slowly, pausing them, and we would go to the verses that Bill Gothard would share, and often we'd find when we opened the Bible, that he said almost the exact opposite of what Scripture said.
- [11:51]
Jeremy Volo
And.
- [11:51]
Ginger Volo
And it was really helpful for me to see that for myself with an open Bible, because then I realized, oh, wow, like, Jeremy saying that actually makes sense because he was pulling one verse out of context, making it say whatever he wanted to, and then telling you to make a commitment to keep his. His little rule. You know, if it was about things so small, he would say that, you know, like, you just need to keep this rule, and then God will bless you. And if you don't, then your life will be one disaster after another.
- [12:21]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah. And I remember that conversation. We had just started recording officially, and we had been spending time together, and then she was traveling, and so we were on the phone, and I was outside of Walmart in Laredo, Texas, and I was about to go in, and I guess she called me, and we're talking, and I don't know, I think you asked me about Bill Gothard, or it came up, and I just went, yeah, he's got some interesting stuff to say. He's definitely not a Bible teacher, though. And I knew that would be, like, a little bit like, huh? Because she. She was basing her life. She's a Christian. She's basing her life on the Bible. And this is the preeminent teacher.
- [12:56]
Jenny Ertz
Right.
- [12:57]
Jeremy Volo
And. But I wanted to see too, like, how she would engage that. Because Gothard wasn't a Bible teacher, he would, like, use the Bible like. Like, you know, to hang his hat on. You know, he'd start a seminar and say, hey, this Bible verse is this. And then for 65 minutes, talk about whatever else. You go, yeah, bro, can't you just teach us the Bible? But it was interesting to see and that she was so humble and, like, receptive to go, what do you mean? Which I think is so admirable for anybody in any stage of life.
- [13:27]
Jenny Ertz
That's right.
- [13:27]
Jeremy Volo
I mean, Ginny, you know, we become so, like, you know, we put our walls up and we refuse to dialogue, and once we've stopped dialoguing, we stop progressing. And for her to say, well, what do you mean? Well, let's talk about it. Let's look into that really was the foundation of our relationship because it built a trust with me and her me going, she's not just going to blindly follow me. She has a higher authority, which is the Lord. And as long as we walk with Jesus together, we'll walk hand in hand. But it showed me, like, she's got this humility and this willingness to engage even what she doesn't know or isn't familiar with.
- [14:06]
Jenny Ertz
Wow, Ginger. I mean, can you ever have imagined? There's this quote by Charles Spurgeon. It's one of my favorites. He says, leniency to the. Leniency to the dishonest is cruelty to those whom they injure. And you wrote this book a Becoming Free indeed and just brought freedom to so many people because this is a dishonest man. And think about how many people were lenient toward him even though he was wrong. And you are the one, you were the one who said, I'm gonna put this out every bookstore. Like I've been in Barnes and Noble, you know, Ginger, it's a huge deal.
- [14:47]
Ginger Volo
Well, I just have to say right off the bat, it's, it's the mercy of God because I have so many friends who are still in it and maybe are just gonna wrestle with that for all their lives. And so really the Lord bringing Jeremy across my path always makes me a little emotional, let's just be honest. Because it was at a time when, you know, like, there was so much happening in our lives and it wasn't an easy season when he brought him. And I think I had so much fear even around marriage, around all those things. But God gave peace and clarity all along the way that journey. And honestly, I was not the type person who would want to speak out. I'm more, like I said, people pleaser. So with that, it was, it was the Lord's leading and direction that, that carried us through. And I think that that's something for anyone out there who is a people pleaser. If God's given you something, that message to share even the hope of Christ with somebody that needs to hear, then just be willing to share, even if you feel like you're not the one to share. Because it's hard sometimes to push past that fear. But yeah, just very thankful to God.
- [15:57]
Jenny Ertz
Doesn't that remind you of the Bible when like he instructs, like, it's like, you know, I don't even know Moses or something. And he's like, well, you'll know Jeremy because you're a pastor, like, and Moses, like, I can't speak. Or who the, who's the guy that had the stutter and was like, I, I, I don't want to do it. And Ginger, you're like, when people say things like we'll have to agree to disagree, it's like they're speaking Martian. You know, when someone starts, people are discussing differing points of view. I'm uncomfortable. I'm like, can I leave? I got it, I can't take it. And then yet, and yet you are the one who write, who wrote this book. And then also then just really being open about this, people pleasing and it all fits with this book. You always belong.
- [16:38]
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- [20:09]
I think it was really insightful to talk about. I, I don't like the word deconstructing. I read a book that was like, that's like an active tear down and I think that people are, are so just hurt a lot of times from their experiences with religion and man made rules that mostly they're just trying to like not drown. I don't think even have the effort, you know, needed to, to deconstruct something. But you do such a great job and maybe you both could just touch on this about why sometimes people do really get caught up in these man made rules. It's because they're, they feel safe.
- [20:47]
Jeremy Volo
Totally.
- [20:48]
Ginger Volo
Yes, it does give you a false sense of safety and security because for Bill Gothard, he would say to all of his followers, he'd say if you just follow my set of rules then Your life will be a success. And there's a safety insecurity because even as a 14 year old girl I thought, oh, wow, I have all the answers to life's problems. So if your kid's rebelling, I know the answer. If you're in debt, I know why you're in debt. If you have an illness, it's probably because something you did or didn't, don't know you're doing that's displeasing God and that's why you're so sick. So there were a lot of things that I thought I knew because there was a system and it was a very easy cause and effect transaction. And so that's just not how God operates. That's not how we are designed to live. So you, you kind of reshape, reorient your thinking and say, okay, wait, what, how does God operate? What does he require of us? And that's a, that's a hard shift to make. And I think that a lot of young people who grew up even, I mean, there are older people too, but like, people, and I say young people, like, I'm young, I'm not that young now, I've hit my 30s, 31 already or something like that, I don't know. But with that, it's like so many people would struggle with their faith or their upbringing and say, well, that was super damaging. So I'm just gonna throw everything out and I'm gonna tear my faith down to the studs, never to build it up again. And they're just, they, like you said, they're hurt, they're, they're struggling through it. And I remember feeling a lot of that pain of like, wait, what? This is not true. And it kind of shocks your system and you don't know what to think.
- [22:28]
Jeremy Volo
And I think one of the important things that Ginger wanted to show that we both are passionate about is people distort Jesus all the time. And they claim, like Ginger always says, you know, claims to speak for God, but didn't. People will say, I'm a Bible teacher, or I represent the teachings of Jesus and people trust them. And it's so important that people go back to Jesus himself. What did Jesus actually say? Who was Jesus really? And what you discover is a gracious savior, a kind friend, that he was the man of Sorrows. Why was he the man of Sorrows? Because he entered this broken world that he designed by the way created and still sustains. Paul says the universe is upheld by the word of Jesus power. And he enters this world in flesh and goes, wasn't supposed to be this way. And it's broken. And he sees the devastation of sin, and he was a man of sorrows. But he didn't just, like so many keyboard warriors, write compassionate thoughts like, oh, man, I really wish, you know, they would do better for themselves, or, I wish I could help them. He didn't just show empathy from afar. No, he entered the brokenness. He himself was broken by the brokenness in order to rescue us from it. And so if you encounter that Jesus, who doesn't just look at you and your sorrow and brokenness and feel for you, but he actually does something to deliver you from, doesn't matter what some preacher said, it doesn't matter how they treated you. I know those experiences are very real and difficult, and they're incredibly hard to look past, but looking to Jesus can heal you. And that's what Ginger wanted to show was, even with this book, like you said, Ginny, she's the last person who would want to speak up and be like, let me write a book about, you know, a theological system that was broken. And yet she was compelled by something greater, which was, wait, the glory of Christ is at stake and a lot of people have been hurt and nobody's going to say anything. Well, I'll say something that makes somebody who's sheepish or naturally shy, be bold as a lion.
- [24:41]
Jenny Ertz
It's a huge deal. It's a huge deal, Ginger. Well, because then he went on and, like, then all this stuff came out about him later. And you even wrote in the book, you're like, he wasn't even married with kids, and he's giving people all this life advice. And then there was these Gothard girls, and people are coming out, you know, with all these different accusations. And then his brother had had, you know, these inappropriate relationships. And I liked what you said, too. It's like, you know, it's like you would kick people when they're down, like, oh, if you so and so had an affair, it's your fault. I mean, like, what in world? I was like, jeez, of course then people would leave a system like that and. And be very lost. You wrote so many I know and love have decided Christianity is not for them because all they ever knew was Gothard's version of it. They assume God is oppressive and overbearing, just like Gothard's theology. I mean, he was filling stadiums. So this affected a lot of people. What was it like then, Jeremy, when, okay, so Jim Bob's like, hey, you're interested in my daughter, you need to fill out this 50 question page questionnaire.
- [25:43]
Jeremy Volo
True?
- [25:43]
Oh, yeah, that was true. It was 50 pages. Like 200 some questions. Yeah.
- [25:50]
Jenny Ertz
Like, what?
- [25:51]
Jeremy Volo
Oh, goodness. What is your financial situation? Do you have tattoos? Asked all about your past with relationships? Asks your theology, Asks your family life.
- [26:03]
Ginger Volo
Grandparents, great grandparents.
- [26:04]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah. What. What sins did your grandparents struggle with? I mean, it was everything. It was. And a lot of it was honestly really, like, good and helpful, like, because it created conversation for me and Ginger, you know, it's like, yeah, it was fascinating. But for me, stepping into this was. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was a fascinating world. And I. I was, you know, as I listened to even Gothard's teachings and interacted with Mr. Mrs. Duggar about them, it wasn't like I immediately saw issues. Honestly, Ginny, if I had known all of the issues and the theology of Gothard, I would have never pursued a girl who is wrapped up in. That said, like, I would have been like, that's a false. Like, she's gonna be the mother of my kids. Like, I. That's a false theology. You know, I can't. Why would I pursue someone who believes things that are antithetical to who God is? It was actually God's kindness that I was just kind of ignorant. I was just like, hey, what's this? You know, and then I meet this great girl, get to know her, start to really like her, and then I start the theology. But it wasn't really. Until I was way down the road realizing, oh, Gothard's got some oppressive theology or. But at that point, I'm like, well, but I'm locked in on this girl. Like, I know who she is, I know what she believes, I know what kind of woman she is. So that was kind of a sweetness of the Lord to have me blind to that.
- [27:30]
Jenny Ertz
Well, it's like, I think he needed the duo of you to put all these books out into the world and to come together as this force to really help families and to really help children. I mean, you're getting to the root of it with these children's books. So I would imagine, was it scary or what was it like when. When. When a father, you know, the father of the girl you like is like, hey, you know, I just want you to get a little background on what we believe. Here's these videos. And you're like, I don't agree with these videos.
- [28:00]
Jeremy Volo
Well, I didn't know at first, so. And that was kind of the smart nature of Gothard. What I started listening to and this is actually. Mr. Gothard had asked me to listen to the basic seminar. I started listening to the advanced seminar. And I didn't realize that. And actually that shielded me from. Because very early on in the basic seminar, he goes off the rails. And so if I had started with that, I would have been like, what is this guy talking about? The advanced seminar? He also goes off the rails, but it starts with philosophy and humanism. So he doesn't say, let's open our Bibles. He starts talking about the cultural moment. And a lot of stuff a lot of people would agree with. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, bad. The heart of that is a philosophical movement of humanism. And you go, bad. You know, and so I'm listening, going, he's got some interesting stuff to say. But even that, like, I. I would call Mr. Duggar and I'd say, yeah, I agree with this. And I'd also tell him, like, yeah, this was a little strange. I don't really agree with that. And we'd just talk about it. But even then, like those initial hours and hours of listening, I wasn't getting into a lot of the more problematic stuff that we would discover later.
- [29:15]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Jeremy Volo
Part of that's just because I started listening to the wrong seminar.
- [29:19]
Jenny Ertz
Wow. Wow. So then you end up together and here you are really helping people to disentangle from a lab. There's, you know, over the years, I think there's been a combination of false teaching, but. And also. And also an onslaught of fallen men. That's just. People are really disappointed and disillusioned by people who, you know, claim to be spiritual authorities and just do things that are shocking and you end up feeling really lost. So I just think the books are wonderfully written, very helpful, and I love that you are helping with the children. So can you talk about. There's actually two children's books. One brand new one is coming out on February 17th. You always belong, but there's also. You can shine so bright. So can you talk about the kids books?
- [30:06]
Ginger Volo
Yes. So we decided to write a couple kids books because we have three kiddos. They are seven, five, and ten months. And so if you heard me squealing or screaming, they're downstairs with the babysitter. And it can be a little loud at times, actually pause for just a second because of your, you know, thousand hours outside thing. I have thought about it and I've. I'm the type person whom, like, I really would need to fully commit, make sure I can get all the hours. I see other friends of ours Post their journey of trying to get their thousand hours outside. I feel like my mom did that great. She probably actually had us outside. We were outside all the time. Like, that was our playground was outside. We spent all of our time outside, probably because we were so loud and chaotic, let me just say, throwing this out there. And I have wanted to do that, but I haven't committed yet. And I should. I have no excuse because we live in Southern California where it's sunshiny. Okay. I had to get.
- [31:06]
Jenny Ertz
But you know what? It's just. It's not like, really about a should. It just makes life easier. I actually think it really ties into the message of freedom because the reason that we do it is because I was just, like, so overwhelmed as a young mom. You know, we have five kids. I mean, they're pretty close in age that. I mean, obviously there's families that have way bigger. But I was just like, so overwhelmed by it. And I learned from somebody else, it was like, well, getting outside, it kind of takes the edge off. And. And then God in his mercy, I think, made his world to be a place where kids grow and thrive. So anyway, I do think, though, for someone who is more type A, it's actually like, like, not probably not the best thing, because, like, you're like, don't want to be like, what have I got to 720. It's really not about that. Even though it is research backed. It is backed. And I do think that kids used to naturally spend that much time outside. But it's more about a freedom. Like, you don't have to run around and do all these things. You don't have to roll your kids to all these classes. You don't have to do so many extracurriculars. You don't have to go, go, go. There's a lot of freedom in the way that God made children.
- [32:15]
Ginger Volo
I love that and I love what you do. So I just have to say that. Okay, but back to the kids books now. Okay. I had that side note talking about kids. I was waiting to say that at some point, and then. Yes. So when we wrote you always belong, Jeremy actually has a story kind of about, like, why this book, how it came about.
- [32:36]
Jeremy Volo
Yeah, Well, I mean, our daughter was just starting to go to class, and she got in the truck one day or came home and was about to burst into tears. And Felicity is a strong little girl, and so she didn't want to show her tears in front of everyone, but as soon as she got with us, she started crying and just said, Daddy, they were laughing at me today. And so then you think, okay, every parent has to go through this for the first time. What do you say to your kid? And you know, I'm a Bible teacher. It's my job to stand up and speak for an hour on things of the Bible. But I'm stumped by this little conversation with my daughter going, what do I say? Do I say, you know what, I'm going to go in and teach those kids? Do I go tell the teacher, like, hey, they were laughing at my daughter. Shut it down. Well, yeah, I guess those could be like solutions. But that's not helping your kid. That's not helping them function in life. That's not helping shape their worldview. You don't want a 45 year old daughter coming to you and saying, daddy, they laughed at me at work. And Daddy walks into work. You've got to help equip them. So as we thought about it, and we thought about our answer to it, we thought, man, the message that Ginger is communicating to adults about you are not having to find your approval and gain acceptance from everyone around you. If you know and love your creator and have found your approval and acceptance from God, then you're actually able to enter relationships from a place of strength. And so if people accept you, wonderful. If people don't, that's okay, and you can still love them anyway, even if they don't accept you. And so I ended up telling her that day, you know, well, Felicity, I think it was a combination of things. You know, I said, God isn't laughing at you. So even if they're making fun of you, God's not making fun of you and he's always with you. Mommy and daddy aren't laughing at you. But then as I got into it with her, I actually realized, like, I was able to tell her because they weren't laughing in like derision. It was like she did something funny.
- [34:38]
Ginger Volo
That was cute, that was cute.
- [34:39]
Jeremy Volo
And she didn't try to do it. And so I was able to say, felicity, you could laugh at yourself too. Like, you could not take yourself so seriously where you go, hey, that was really funny. And they're your friends, they love you. And so as we process through it, we started to think, man, this book, this book, people pleaser. A six year old's not gonna read this. And adults need this. But adults also need this understanding of like, hey, I can go through life from a place of security and confidence, not craving everyone else's approval, and then living or dying if I get it or don't.
- [35:19]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [35:19]
Wow.
- [35:20]
Oh, I love it. A book for the adult and a book for the child.
- [35:24]
Jeremy Volo
And if you want to feel good about yourself, you can read this as an adult and go, I read a book today.
- [35:32]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, Sometimes the hardest part of eating well isn't cooking, it's deciding what to cook. I care about feeding my family well. I have health goals I want to stay on top of, but honestly, by the end of the day, I'm just out of brain space. And that's exactly why Hungry Root has been such a game changer for us. Hungry Root works like a personal nutrition coach and grocery shopper all in one. I told them what we like, what we avoid, and what I'm aiming for health wise, and they handled the rest. The recipes, the groceries, the planning, it all showed up ready to go. What I love most is how simple it makes eating healthier without overthinking it. Whether I'm focusing on cleaner ingredients, more protein, or meals that work for everyone in the family, Hungry Root just gets it. And it actually learns as you go because it every order feels more tailored than the last. There are over 50, 000 recipes to choose from, no junk ingredients, and high quality meat and seafood you can feel good about. And if you're trying to keep healthy habits going past January, this makes it realistic. Hungry Root has taken so much stress off my plate, literally, and made healthy eating something we can actually stick with for a limited time. Get 40 off your first box plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com 1000hours and use code 1000hours. That's hungryroot.com 1000hours code 1000hours to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. There's something about the start of a new year that makes me want our home to feel more supportive, like it's actually helping us stay organized and focused instead of adding to the chaos. That's why I keep coming back to Wayfair. Wayfair truly has everything in one place, from bedding and bath essentials to storage solutions to easy updates for kids rooms, living spaces, and work from home setups. Whether you're trying to simplify mornings, reset routines, or just make your space feel a little more peaceful, it's all there. One of the best updates we made recently was in our podcast studio. We received so many books from guests and they slowly had taken over every surface. We ordered shelving from Wayfair and it was one of those changes that instantly made the space feel lighter and more intentional. The shelves fit the room perfectly, the style is clean and simple, and finally, everything has a place. It sounds small, but it made a huge difference in how the space feels when we walk in. That's what I love about Wayfair the huge selection, the range of styles and price points, and how easy it is to find pieces that actually work for real life. If you're ready to get organized, refreshed, and back on track this new year for way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every Style, Every Home this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. February can make it feel like everyone else has it all figured out when it comes to love. The flowers, the candy, the big gestures. It can quietly whisper that if your relationship isn't perfect, or if you're still single or still figuring things out, then somehow you're behind. But here's the truth. Most of us are still figuring it out. Married. Dating. Single. All of us. We certainly are. After 22 years of marriage, therapy can be a helpful place to slow down, take the pressure off, and honestly ask what feels heavy right now? What do I actually want? What might be weighing my relationships down more than I realize? Whether you're working on things individually or as a couple, therapy can help identify what's getting in the way and help remove some of those blockers so things can feel lighter again. That's one reason I appreciate better help. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. They also make getting started simple by matching you with a therapist based on a short questionnaire. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime BetterHelp has over 30, 000 therapists that have served more than 6 million people worldwide, with an average of 4.9 out of 5 ratings across over 1.7 million reviews. You don't have to have it all figured out to take the next step. Sign up and get 10 off@betterhelp.com 1000 hours that's B E T T E R H E L P.com 1000 hours.
- [39:18]
Well, Ginger, talk about then when you so you know, you like I'm super close with my one sister. You know, all the girls are in a room, we got all these bunk beds, and I'm super close with Jessa. And then you go, you know, you get married and you're at church with Jeremy and You're like, oh, my goodness, I have so much social anxiety. Like, you really feel like you don't belong. You don't want to have people over because you're like, they're going to come over. My house is messy. You know, I'm. They're going to see this. I want to put up this appearance. So can you talk about. I mean, that's a really huge thing to work through. I think a lot of people relate with that, and I think it's amazing that you are helping people in that area. So can you talk about, you know, a bit. Bit of advice for, like, when you went to go learn to build genuine relationships on your own and you didn't have siblings around, like, how to get out of that performative mindset?
- [40:12]
Ginger Volo
Yeah, it was hard for me. I remember initially just being afraid of opening up to anybody, afraid of letting people in and building genuine relationship. And I think I was guarded for many reasons. Part of that was temperament. The other side of it was the public side of things. I wasn't sure why people would be my friend. And so. Sorry, I'm going to cough.
- [40:34]
Jenny Ertz
No, I hear that you don't know why someone wants to be your friend because maybe they're going to be, you know, you're famous. Is that like, you know, you're famous, so you don't know what people's intentions are.
- [40:44]
Yeah, that's hard.
- [40:45]
Ginger Volo
I struggled to know if people were, you know, wanting to be my friend or maybe trying to get information. And that was also. I was kind of shut down in many ways. But realizing what? I left Laredo, Texas. I was there for two and a half years, and leaving there, I realized I was like, wow. I really did not lean into those friendships in a deep way. I had a lot of surface level friendships. Probably half the people would have been like, oh, yeah, Ginger. Like, I'm really good friends with her. But also, I was. I still was very guarded and always felt like I had a front up and not trying to be somebody else. Like that. I wasn't, but I was just afraid. And I struggled so much. Even going out to coffee with another sweet mom for my church. I would be terrified in fear, and I would be unable to, like, eat anything. Almost there. Because I was so afraid. And Jeremy, like, before, do I have to go?
- [41:41]
Jenny Ertz
Do I have to go?
- [41:42]
Ginger Volo
I need to do this. I know I need to go out to lunch with her a coffee, but I'm so scared because I don't know how to interact with. And I think I was more so in my own head, thinking, what are they going to think about me? Or are they going to think I'm stupid? Are they going to think I don't know what to say? And so pushing through that, though, Jeremy was always encouraging me, like you, it's good to have these friendships. It's so healthy and helpful for you. And it's going to be tough, you know, when you're first starting to figure out who you are and all those things. But he was just saying, like, even think of them, ask them questions about themselves. And I was not great at that. Like, I honestly just wasn't great. But kept pressing through Jer, kept encouraging me, and by God's grace, made it through on the other side. And now I have a lot of good friends. We go work out. Actually, we've been working out the past couple. Only the past couple weeks. Okay. But 5:45 in the morning, get up and go work out. And it's so great with my mom friends, we're laughing half the time. The ab workouts are just. Just us laughing and having fun and relax together, you know, and it's. It's one of those things that I couldn't have looked back at this season, like, where I'm having mom friends over into my messy house. Just letting people into my life has been the biggest blessing and gift. And I already had the sweetest best friend next to me. Jeremy is, like, amazing. And having your spouse is such a gift. And then beyond that, we need other friends. We need people around us that we can invite over into the messy stuff, but then also into the joys of life. Like, sharing life with your friends is such a gift. And it's something that for so many years, I gave up because I was too afraid. And so for anybody else who's in that place, I would just say, like, don't let that rob you of the joy of friendship, because we were designed for that community.
- [43:41]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. I loved how you wrote about how then, you know, you just realize it could be totally different. I can't find it in my notes. But you were, like, talking about how just then, that risk of letting someone see you as you are. Like, there was a story about the Cheerios on the floor, and you said, that's when I realized that there was something I wanted even more than a polished reputation. I wanted real. Real friendships, real freedom, real conversations, and real connection.
- [44:09]
It's good. It's a good.
- [44:11]
It's a big thing to grow through. And you can read all about that in the book called People Pleaser. So, a lot to learn. Jeremy, how did you go from being a professional soccer player to a pastor?
- [44:21]
Jeremy Volo
Oh, good question. You know, it's funny. I was always. I was. My dad was a pastor, and I was always obsessed with soccer and thought I could never do what my dad does. And it was actually the Lord teaching me some lessons in college. I was drinking, partying, going down a bad path.
- [44:38]
Death.
- [44:39]
Oh, no.
- [44:40]
Jenny Ertz
Your dad was probably like, oh, no, Jeannie.
- [44:43]
Jeremy Volo
He didn't know about it because I hid it from him. Yeah, I hit it. And I just became a master of, like, I wanted to walk with Jesus, but I was, like, ashamed of all these sins. And I was like, I could never let my parents know. I don't want to let them down. And they never. They never said, you don't. You better not let us down. But I just imposed that pressure on myself. So halfway through my sophomore year of college, I go out drinking with. With some buddies. I end up getting arrested. 2:00 clock in the morning, throwing in the drunk tank. Yeah. And I'm sitting there. I'm sitting there literally going, I can't live like this and call myself a Christian. Like, I can't keep going to church hungover. I can't keep acting a fool out here at the bars. I've either got to follow Jesus or I just got to live for myself. And that was a huge turning point for me. And what was funny is the next few years in college, I was meeting regularly with my pastor, getting involved in my church, and my pastor would sometimes say, like, hey, I think you might be a pastor one day. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm gonna be a soccer player. Like that. I'm gonna play till I'm 40. And that's my life. So then the first year out of college, I go to Finland, and I signed a professional contract, and there's a little group of Christians there, and we get plugged in together, and all of a sudden I start feeling this desire to, like, teach the Bible and counsel and. And I'm like, what is going on? What's wrong with me? I've got to focus on my career. So then I go to New York. Same thing. All of a sudden, I'm more excited to go to church and Bible study than I am to train, which was my obsession. And I'm like, what's wrong with me? So I ended up playing for four years, and by the end of it, I had no desire to play. I just wanted to preach the gospel. I wanted to shepherd Souls. I wanted to get into life with people and it was like the writing was on the wall. God just shifted my passions in a kind of a dramatic way that I did not see coming.
- [46:33]
Jenny Ertz
Isn't that wild? It's like there's so many of those stories in the, in the lives, in both of your lives. It's like God just can change your heart and change circumstances so dramatically to the point where then now the two of you, I think, are really helping people step away from this strictness. Man, you know, you talk so much about man made religion and disentangling from man made religion. It's like a. It's a powerful story. I'm sure your dad was pretty thrilled. Did you write about any of that in the questionnaire?
- [47:07]
Jeremy Volo
I probably would have. You know what's funny, Jenny? That questionnaire came to me around 50 pages or 55 pages. I sent it back to Mr. Duggar over 100 pages because I just went to town on that sucker. I just wrote and I didn't. I think the questionnaire, you know what, the questionnaire was for him. But then he gave it to you, didn't he?
- [47:26]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:27]
Jeremy Volo
And we talk about. We have an episode in our podcast on the 200 page questionnaire or however, however much. Or 250 questionnaire. And so we had a lot of fun with that. We were really. Honestly, if people talked more before marriage about a lot of stuff, we'd probably see less divorce.
- [47:43]
Jenny Ertz
No, I actually agree. I think, I mean, I think it's probably super helpful because there's all sorts of things you would never consider. Like when you go back a couple generations, like grandparents and all of those things. It's. That's why the kids books are so important. It's because these roots take place. And Ginger, you talk so much. You're like, you know, yeah, eating, you know, eating issues. And you're like, your mom was so loving and she walked you through all of it. It's like your parents are great parents and yet so many of us, like parents are great parents and yet these lies, you know, they. They weasel their way in through all sorts of different things based off of like you talked about could be partially your personality, you know, partially circumstances that are not meant to harm you but can leave some lasting performative. Well, of course you're going to be a performer. You are on television from the time you're like a fourth grader. So. Yeah, I mean, I think that that all makes sense. And you know, pastors, kids, a lot of times my husband's got a similar story to yours. I mean, very similar, you know, and those things happen.
- [48:41]
Jeremy Volo
So, yeah, it helped me when I talked to Mr. Mrs. Duggar. What was so helpful for our story together was I was completely from a different world theologically. And being a pastor, I was able to sit with Mr. And Mrs. Duggar. Like you said, great parents, but I think caught up in a theological system that had error in it. And so in our conversations, I wasn't combative and saying, you know, jumping down their throat, you better believe everything I believe. It was like, hey, let me show you from the Bible why I believe what I believe in this loving way. Well, Ginger, the same way. She's not wanting to make a statement, to humiliate someone or to expose just for the sake of exposing. It's coming from a place of love. And I think if so many of us had a conversation where we said, I want to try to communicate truth to this person because I love them, that would shape how we say it and why we say it, and we wouldn't be so combative and cruel and mean and vindictive to each other, but to be able to say, look, here's what's true, and I want to help you get here because I care for you. And I think that really comes through in Ginger's books, too, especially how she deals with some of these difficult issues.
- [49:58]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. I mean, these are all such important topics. I think the topic about. And this comes through in the book, too, that when we're in a situation where we're trying to keep up appearances, then a lot of times things can really get overlooked and people get hurt in the process. So, you know, in a. In a situation like an IBLP where you're like, you know, everything is about, how do we come across. No one's really dealing with these deeper issues. And that's how something like that goes on for decades. I mean, you talked about how it would. In the 1980s, which is the heyday Bill Gothard was packing stadiums. And then you say three decades later, you know, it's basically crumble. That's not, you know, it's. It still exists, but the whole thing is, like, so much smaller.
- [50:41]
But you're.
- [50:42]
Like, three decades is a really long time.
- [50:44]
Yeah.
- [50:45]
For someone to be leading people astray. And I just. I took so much from, like, what you're doing and your books.
- [50:54]
It's a.
- [50:54]
It's like a whole lesson on bravery. And when you're, like, the. The least person that you would ever expect because you're someone Who's a people pleaser. And you're, you know, you're struggling with that and you're, you know, you're away from your family and you're in this whole new world. To be the one who steps out and. And speaks truth is an incredible. Is an incredible path to follow. I. I just got so much out of all these books. The kids books are fantastic. Okay, can I have two last questions? Because I really like the water pressure story. Yeah, can you share the water pressure story? And then I've got one last one. But people can listen to your podcast. It is the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. 80 episodes there, lots of books. The kids book that is launching on February 17th. It'll be out by the time you hear this podcast. You always belong. Knowing God's love and finding your place. There's another kids book called you Can Shine so Bright. And at least three adult books, the Hope We Hold. Becoming Free Indeed.
- [51:49]
People pleaser.
- [51:50]
Ginger, you were like, yeah, that's most of them.
- [51:54]
Ginger Volo
All the ones we're gonna mention right now.
- [51:57]
Jenny Ertz
Tell us about that. Tell us about being a people pleaser. And the water pressure story.
- [52:03]
Ginger Volo
Oh, yeah, for sure. So the water pressure story. We were staying at some friend's house before we flew out for the airport the next morning, and they were so kind to host us in their house. And anyhow, it was super early in the morning, and Jeremy was like, I'm gonna grab a quick shower before we head to the airport. So he's showering and the water pressure was super, super low. And in their shower. And so he just. He sings all the time around the house. He's either singing or whistling. Like, the kids will hear somebody whistling. And even our babies think it's Jeremy. They like, look, they know it's him. So, yeah, anyhow, he was singing and he just made up a song about the water pressure being low in the shower. And anyhow, you walk out into the living room super early in the morning. As I said, it's like 5 o'.
- [52:50]
Jeremy Volo
Clock in the morning.
- [52:50]
Ginger Volo
Like, why is anybody up? And this sweet couple, they were sitting there in the living room, and they were like, oh, sorry for the water pressure. I know it's very low. And Jerry was like, did you hear me? They're like, yeah, we did. It's okay. The walls are paper thin. And little did he know, they were just out there listening to him serenade them about their water pressure being so low. But in that moment, I mean, we were both mortified. Like, oh, my gosh, we're never Going to be able to, like, look him in the face again. And we didn't care about the water pressure. It was just, you know, it was. Jeremy.
- [53:27]
Jenny Ertz
It was a good song. It was a good song.
- [53:28]
Ginger Volo
One of those. You gotta get through. You know, one of those moments you're like, you close the door when you leave.
- [53:32]
Jenny Ertz
You're like, oh, man.
- [53:34]
Ginger Volo
Oh. Oh.
- [53:35]
Jenny Ertz
There's some great stories in your book. There's one about when you go, you think it's an Airbnb, like, you're gonna have the whole place and you.
- [53:42]
Jeremy Volo
Oh, man.
- [53:43]
Ginger Volo
There's somebody, like, on the couch. Yeah. Who didn't belong there.
- [53:48]
Jenny Ertz
Yes, exactly. So lots of great stories in these books becoming free. Indeed. People pleaser. The hope we hold. And just grab the kids books. They're ador. They're adorable. The illustrations are fantastic. And of course, our kids need this message that they belong. They always belong. And you can read the book for the adult, the people pleaser one, and walk alongside your kids while you read. You always belong. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood?
- [54:14]
That was outside.
- [54:16]
Ginger Volo
Oh, I know immediately. You know?
- [54:18]
Jeremy Volo
Yep.
- [54:19]
Ginger Volo
Okay. So I remember we had this, like, tree that I think it was probably like termites, say, at the middle of it. I don't even know, but it had, like this little slide on it. And we had tons of fruit trees. So we would go out. My mom would be like, go outside, like I told you. And we had all these fruit trees, like cherry trees, apples, everything, like persimmons. So we would go out and get the cherries and roll them down. There was like this little. This little, like. I don't even know what it was like died there. And the cherries would roll down there. I just remember that. And we'd eat the cherries and then put the cherry bits down this little side. It was the best thing ever. It was amazing. And then we'd, like, stock. We'd stuck the side. And we'd also, like, feed the cattle. There were, like, cow fields around our house and there was these. These, like, barbed wire fence. So we'd get the old apples off the ground and put them all the way along the top of the barbed wire fence. And all the cows would come up and eat and we'd name the cows.
- [55:11]
Jenny Ertz
So, yes, ginger beets are very unique. Answers. No one has ever said. Said we ate the cherries and then rolled the pits down the tree.
- [55:20]
Jeremy Volo
We did.
- [55:21]
Ginger Volo
That's what we did. That tree was probably about to collapse on us. Little did we know? But it was a memory. There we go.
- [55:26]
Jeremy Volo
That's really funny. I had. There was a little pond near our house and we'd always go to it. It's probably the first place I ever went fishing. There's a picture of me and my brother and sister reaching down, trying to lure a duck in with some food. And there was this tree that was huge and it would come down, the. The branches would come down and they were big and thick and we would climb that thing for hours. And then I went back a couple of years ago as an adult for the first time and there was this tall. There was a sign that said, like, do not climb the tree. It's like a. It's like a four. It's like a 300 year old tree or something. And I just remember, like, man, that was an integral part of my childhood is climbing that tree.
- [56:06]
Jenny Ertz
Oh, I love these simple memories. They're so simple. They're so beautiful. I love it. Well, huge congrats to you on this kid's book. I think it's so needed. Gosh, especially in this day and age, isn't it like, especially in this day and age of AI chatbots and all of that kind of stuff, like AI relationships, like for a child to have a good foundation that they always belong is so important. It's really, truly an honor to meet the both of you. Thank you so much, much for being here.
- [56:35]
Jeremy Volo
Thanks. Jenny.
- [56:39]
Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries.
- [56:46]
Out to the wind.
- [56:50]
Climb some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and.
- [56:58]
Jenny Ertz
Take it in.
- [57:01]
Jeremy Volo
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this view. Oh, it's a beautiful world.
- [57:19]
Jenny Ertz
And I.
- [57:20]
Jeremy Volo
Just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful, beautiful world Such a beautiful world.