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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 719: How to Get More Out of Every Step You Take | Michael Easter, Walk With Weight
00:53:24
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- [00:01]
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- [00:20]
Michael Easter
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- [00:21]
Quaker Brand Representative
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- [00:29]
Jenny Urchin
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urchin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and Michael Easter is back. Welcome, Michael.
- [00:37]
Michael Easter
My favorite podcast to be on. I'm so happy to be back.
- [00:40]
Jenny Urchin
You have made me really cool with my brothers and my dad. I don't think they ever listened to my podcast until you came on. And then they were like, they're such big fans and they got the rucksacks and, like, I think they were traveling. Like, maybe my dad and one of my brothers were traveling, and they were like, well, we traveled. We listened to your episode with Michael Easter. So you came on a long time ago. November 2022. People can go back in January 2024. And now here it is, 2026, and the book is called Walk with Weight the Definitive Guide to Rucking. Welcome back. Did I already say that?
- [01:13]
Michael Easter
You did, but I'll. But I'll take it back. I feel. I want to feel welcome. So now that we've said it however many times, I'm feeling really welcome right now. That's what matters.
- [01:21]
Jenny Urchin
I think what's really cool is, like, when we talked at the very beginning, we talked about your incredible book called the Comfort Crisis, and then we talked about Scarcity Brain. And in the midst of it all, you have. I don't even know what you would call it. Like, you have come up with this slogan about being a 2 percenter, and this has really caught on with our kids. Like, it's about taking the stairs and not that escalator. So. Well, then we'll be like, we're being a 2 presenter, and you've got your 2% hat on. So I just love that. I mean, you probably couldn't have imagined that that offshoot was gonna happen.
- [01:55]
Michael Easter
No, not at all. So I. That all came because. So I read this stat a long time ago. I think I referenced the stat in the Comfort Crisis, but it basically found that 2% of people take the stairs when there's also an escalator available. Only 2%. So 98% of people choose to do the easier, more effortless thing. When just taking the stairs would have given them a longer term reward on their health, on their well being. So we do the easy thing. And to me, the stat really isn't so much about the staircase as it is sort of a metaphor for living well. And that is basically being willing to embrace a little bit of short term discomfort if it's going to get you this massive long term benefit. And so, I mean it really came out as I was at the Las Vegas airport and I literally just did this Instagram that was like, at the airport there's this big staircase flanked by escalators. I take a video, I put, you know, only 2% of people take the stairs when there's an escalator, be a 2 percenter. And it just sort of took off and I was like, oh, there's something about that resonates with people. And then I started newsletter called it the 2% newsletter. And somehow you just stumble into these things. But to your point, when I, when I see people actually using that, it just warms my heart. I'm like, this is fantastic.
- [03:08]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, there's something about it. It really draws you in. And you've got your 2% substack newsletter. So back when we first talked, this wasn't a part of the conversation. And now you've even got merch. So I just, I absolutely love that you say become one of the rare breeds of humans who choose the slightly harder path that delivers giant dividends over the long term. So the 2% substack newsletter and I'll make sure I'll put the link in the show notes. But you wrote a book about rucking. Specifically about rucking. Can you talk about how? Because it's so interesting to me, that was the part of the comfort crisis. That was one of the parts that really stuck out to me too. I mean, I immediately started doing it, you know, it reminded me of baby wearing. So can you talk about how that too? Like you also got a lot of feedback about the rucking.
- [03:55]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So the, there's a chapter about rocking and why humans are really uniquely good at carrying weight in the comfort crisis. And it was towards the back of the book and for whatever reason it just sort of took off. I would say among people, it sort of like kind of kick started this rocking craze and there was a lot of things going on, but I think that kind of helped more people start to ruck. And I got so many questions about it because in the comfort crisis I cover a lot of topics like each section or chapter is covering A different thing. So the whole thing about rucking was maybe 20 pages. And people wanted to know, like, okay, well, how much weight should I use? How much? Like, a million different questions. And I started covering those questions on my sub stack. But there wasn't, like, a single place where if you see all these people out in your neighborhood wearing a weight vest, you have friends that start rucking, like, what do you need to know about this thing? And so I decided to just do this book to literally make a case for why carrying weight is so important for humans, all its health benefits. And then importantly, how to get started if you've never done it, if you've been doing it for a while, how to level up and how to solve any issues you might have along the way and just do it better, really. So it's kind of a guidebook to rucking. Like, I would say my last books are these, like, thoughtful, like, their big ideas. And this is, like, this is rocking. Here's how to do the thing. It's very tactical.
- [05:23]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. But I also have six pages of notes in it. So it's. I mean, there's also, like, stories, and you incorporate, like, people that you've talked to, people that have written in, and you talk about how it's like, the wellness. And I wonder if this is partly why Michael, like, it's so attractive. Like, it was so attractive to me, too, because you're so overwhelmed by this wellness industry. And you're like, okay, should I be cold plunging? You know, should I have. And then I should get in the sauna and then I should do. And then you. I should put my face in cold water. And then, you know, and you're like, it's thing after thing after thing.
- [05:53]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
And.
- [05:54]
Jenny Urchin
And you read about this and you're like, wait, I can walk with weight. I can put my baby on my back instead of putting him in the stroller. You know, I can throw a bag of rice in my backpack and go for a walk.
- [06:04]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Do you think that that's partly why
- [06:06]
Jenny Urchin
people so connected with it?
- [06:09]
Michael Easter
I think so. Well, first, I would point out that walking is the most fundamentally human thing we can do. We're like the only. The only species out there who's walking on two feet long distances across the Earth. We did that for all of time. It shaped us into who we are. So there's something very important about that to being a human. We also started engineering it out of our lives with our modern world we live in, where we don't have to move around and walk around as Much. And so I think getting back to that, but also asking the question, how can I get more out of every step I take? That's where rucking comes in. Because now all of a sudden, we're taking this amazing thing that is walking and making it even better, helping you burn more calories, helping you build and maintain muscle, increasing bone density. Like, all these really good things just get amplified. And so I think that's what it is. And also to your point, all this wellness stuff is so overwhelming. Yeah, Right. But if you go outside and take a walk, like, all of the nonsense of life just kind of fades. You have time with your thoughts, and it's just this really meditative thing. And so I think it's like you get people to start doing that, and I can tell you about the benefits all day, but it's just like, go out and do it, and you'll experience them for yourself. It's like the magic comes in the doing.
- [07:36]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Okay, so then talk to us about you. You know, the. The walking part is one thing. Right. But the. And I read this book by Mark Sisson where he was, like, talking about walking versus running and how, like, the running is. Can be really hard on your body, and the walking is not so hard on your body. It's a great book. It's called Born to Walk. But you. You're having, like, this added component of adding on weight, and there's so many ways you can do it. And you go through all the specifics in the book. What are the pros and cons? Do you want to look like you're a tactical. You're wearing tactical gear or not? You know, that you can ch. You can choose that, you know, might be easier in this case. For whatever reason, you go through all the nitty gritty of it. But for you in particular, you're in the tundra. This is what. This is like what you did for the comfort crisis. You're in the tundra, you're hunting. And I remember you talking about, like, where you have to walk, and it's not flat. There's always, like, I don't know, moguls or little bumps I may be talking about. You know, you have to really watch your footing. And so it's like, well, I think anybody would think I would love to do that, carrying nothing so I can really concentrate. But you're having to carry this animal. So will you give the backstory of how this is where you realized, oh, wait, this is what people have done for forever. They always are carrying stuff.
- [08:53]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So there's, there was this research paper that came out in 2004 and it basically made this arguments, that argument that humans evolved to run really long distances and we would do that to hunt because other animals are not good at cooling themselves, but we are because we don't have fur. We sweat, whatever. So the way that, you know, ancestors would hunt and get food is they would run down animals until the animals got exhausted and toppled over and then we would spear them. And so I'm hunting on the tundra and we successfully hunt an animal, but then we have to carry it back. Right. So this like leads me to this, okay, yeah, we had to go get the animal, but what happens after you actually have the animals? Like, you got to carry that thing back. And if you think about humans, we're the only species that can carry weight for long distances. Right. This like really, really shaped us into who we are. And it was important beyond just hunting and carrying back meat. Because if know you had to go out and find food, while finding food, gathering food, it's just literally an act of like, I found some, now I got to carry it. Now I added more. Now I added more. Not to mention we're carrying kids all the time.
- [10:12]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [10:12]
Michael Easter
Like, you know, everyone in the tribe would be carrying around kids. And that, that really made us into who we are as people. It allowed us to take over the world because we could carry tools into the unknown. It freed up our hands for us to do all these intricate, interesting things. And so this act of caring really is probably the main form of physical activity. We did this pairing of walking while carrying something somehow was like the thing that we did for all of time. And in the book, I argue we really lost that over time because we started building technology that allows us to not have to carry everything from. You go to the supermarket and you got a grocery cart, you need to move something from point A to point B, you put it in your car if you need to carry. If you need to move your kid from point A to point B, you put them in a stroller. And so we really lost it. And that I think fundamentally changed something about how we live our lives and also affected our physical health and well being as well.
- [11:18]
Jenny Urchin
I think that the book is fantastically important, all of them really. But in the comfort crisis, you're, you said like, even though, so not only you're like getting back to this thing about caring because you're carrying this caribou, but you're also like, I'm, I'm at peace here. But it's so great. Yeah. Oddly, you say, despite the intense nature of the landscape. Well, yeah, you're in the Arctic tundra, you say. I was more at peace than I'd ever been. So this kind of kicks off and this journey of leading. You're leading all sorts of people into this lifestyle. I'm not kidding. My dad went and got the backpack, my brother.
- [11:53]
Michael Easter
Awesome.
- [11:54]
Jenny Urchin
Like it's been a great thing. I, I have, I, I ended up interviewing one of the person. People from Goruck. And then you started your own company called Walk Fully. So we'll talk about that too. But this is something, I mean, isn't it wild? You like spurred on a whole movement even though other people were doing it. I think it was your book that like really people connected with. So in the, in this book, Walk with Weight, one of the things that you talk about, and I think this is important because it could be seen as sort of like, oh, I guess in a day and age where there's like bodybuilders and how much do you bench? And my kids even talk about that kind of stuff, you know, like at the gym. You know, sometimes people are at the gym and they're like, they're like hanging from the bar with like one and, and they're, they've got a weight belt with like a weight hanging. I'm like, my goodness, these people. So you look at walking and you're kind of like, ho hum. But you talk about how this is what warriors did.
- [12:46]
Michael Easter
Yes. So the term rucking that came from, that's a military term. Now humans had been carrying weight in backpacks or whatever it might be for all of time. But as we started to build these big societies and build militaries, the main form of training for military members has always been throwing your gear in a backpack and having to march. In the past, the soldiers would march hundreds of miles into battle carrying everything they needed. And that persisted in the military. Whereas, you know, I sort of argued the military is the one group who never stopped carrying weight for distance because it's always been their, their main form of training, which has been great. One of the downsides I point out about that in the book is that today if the average person looks up the term rocking, like my, my mother, she's 76, she gets photos of these super big soldiers with like £100 on their back and she goes, that is not for me. Right. That is the version of seeing the person hanging off the bar with the crazy weight belt around their waist. But the reality is as Humans are born to do this. We've been doing it forever. And really, for anyone walking with weight, using a reasonable load is one of the best things you can do for your health and well being. That's one of the reasons I started using the term walk with weight more than rucking. Because if I use that, it feels a little more approachable than calling it rucking, which has the military bent. And my big goal is to get more people trying. Trying. Just try it.
- [14:31]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Yeah.
- [14:32]
Michael Easter
You don't have to do it. If I just say try it, I think you probably will end up doing it a lot because it is so
- [14:37]
Jenny Urchin
beneficial and you give so many ideas in it. It's like, I love the page where it was talking about, well, what could I use? And they're like, okay, well, you could buy something. Like, you could buy a vest. You know, you could buy a backpack that's specifically for it. You're like, or you can take a backpack that you already have and put some books in it.
- [14:54]
Michael Easter
Yeah, that's the beauty is that. I mean, how many things in fitness do you need to go out and buy expensive equipment? Right? It could be. I mean, even a single Dumbbell is probably $50.
- [15:06]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [15:06]
Michael Easter
If you want to get a cardio machine. Okay, now we're looking at a thousand or more dollars, Right? But everyone probably has a backpack lying around the house. Doesn't matter what it is. It could be your kid's backpack. It could be the backpack you used in college. It could be the backpack you bought to go for a hike, you know, four summers ago. All you got to do is take something that weighs something that you have lying around, put it in the package, start stepping. That's it. It's so simple that. And removing those barriers to entry. It's like, how many people don't do something because there's all these like, oh, I gotta buy this. I gotta drive here to do this. I gotta. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, you have everything you need. Just use it and go. It's simple.
- [15:46]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And even just the practicalities. There's so many practicalities in the book. It's like, okay, well, if this is hurting my back, because it's like jamming in. You're like, well, throw a towel in it. Like, you know, wrap your stuff up in a towel. I mean, every single situation, I think that you could probably imagine you've covered in this book on. You can just get started.
- [16:04]
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- [19:37]
Jenny Urchin
And if you are a veteran, you talked about that these vets have spoken to who've gotten back into it and they say it's reconnected them, you know, to their past. And so I thought that was really a heartwarming part too.
- [19:51]
Michael Easter
Yeah, that was great for me because when the chapter of the comfort crisis on rucking first came out, and I don't think people had read the full chapter yet, but they just heard me, maybe a clip on a podcast of saying, hey, rucking is good for us. I had a lot of soldiers go rucking destroyed my knees or rucking destroyed my back. But remember they were having to do it in these marches with like £100 and their mission was to win a war. It wasn't to get healthy and feel better. And so. But after sort of time wore on and people said, all right, I'm going to try this again. I think a lot of vets did find that it really helped them. I had people say, oh, it helped Me lose weight. It reconnected me to my roots. It helped my mental health. It did all these amazing things. Once I did it, you know, went outside, I didn't use a crazy, crazy weight and I just sort of got into it.
- [20:43]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. The phrase you use is reasonable load. My dad walks 20,000 steps a day.
- [20:50]
Michael Easter
I love your dad. I love your dad. This is amazing.
- [20:53]
Jenny Urchin
Isn't that incredible? He is incredible. He is turning 70 this year and he is so healthy and vibrant. And he told me that he does 3 miles before breakfast and then 5 miles by lunch and then 10 miles by the end of the day. That's like his goal.
- [21:08]
Michael Easter
Amazing. I love this guy.
- [21:10]
Jenny Urchin
And incredible. He's got all these paths he walks. So I think what's incredible is that you take this little bit of weight. Could be 10 pounds, could be 20 pounds. You go through the book about, you know, based off of your body weight. It could be more, it could be less. You can start small and work your way up. That this burns more calories per mile and melts more fat than running per mile. Is that correct?
- [21:37]
Michael Easter
It is per mile. So I will say running, you will cover more miles in a shorter time. But if you look at calorie burn per mile, carrying weight is going to help you burn more calories because now you're carrying weight, so your body's having to do more work per mile.
- [21:56]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
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Michael Easter
And I think that, that having weight on your body is also uniquely good for fat loss. So anytime you lose weight, typically if you were to just diet, you're gonna lose some fat, but also some muscle. Yeah, but it seems that when you're rucking, it's almost like the weight on your body sort of signals your body, hey, like, hang on to this muscle, because it seems like we need it as we're burning all these calories walking. And it almost shifts most of the burn to fat, which is a good thing for health.
- [22:28]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. I talked to this guy, his name's Brennan. And I think, well, his book is called Pull Brennan Spiegel, I think is what his name is. I'm really hoping. And he would wear like weights on his ankles. And he said. And you talk about it in your book, too. The word is gravis dot.
- [22:48]
Michael Easter
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Jenny Urchin
And how the bones. I think kind of what he was saying is that the bones will signal your body to lose weight. And he tied it in with. He tied it in with, like when you're in anti gravity situations, like astronauts and how their health can decline really rapidly.
- [23:05]
Michael Easter
Yeah.
- [23:06]
Jenny Urchin
So this extra weight not Only are you burning more calories, but there's also some sort of internal signal, like you said. Yeah. Your body's like, look, we're going to have to have this muscle because you. We weigh more. And then the gravis dat you wrote in walk with weight, it reduces hunger.
- [23:21]
Michael Easter
Yeah, it seems to.
- [23:23]
Jenny Urchin
Oh, it's Gravitostat. I'm saying it wrong.
- [23:25]
Michael Easter
Gravitostat, that, that's really interesting research. It's. It's definitely emerging. But it seems like having weight on your body, your. Your skeletal system, if you're, if you've lost weight, but you're walking around with weight on your body, it's like you're. Your skeletal system doesn't really know, is this from fat, is this from muscle? So it seems to hang on to some important things and keeps your metabolism higher. So a lot of times if people lose weight, their metabolism will drop. And so it seems to prevent that from happening. And it also, yeah, signals something with hunger. Again, a lot of the research is early and we're learning about it, but there seems to be a lot of there there. And even if the gravita stat hypothesis, let's say it was false, well, we still know there's a million other benefits of walking with weight. So it's like, okay, that's just kind of like the, you know, the cherry on the Sunday. It's great. It's great if it's there and if it's not, well, still a heck of a thing to eat, so.
- [24:23]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Well.
- [24:24]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And whether or not, like, there's a study on it, if it helps you with your hunger, like Stephen Rinella is like, I don't need a study to know that I feel good when I go outside. So you're going to see the impacts in your own life. So whether there's a study or not, there are people who are saying that this graffitostat hypothesis is that this can help reduce hunger and that this type of exercise actually helps. If you feel like you need to lose weight or you feel like you
- [24:48]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
need to gain weight.
- [24:49]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So with a lot of people, what it'll do is it almost, if you're too big, it'll get you smaller. If you're too small, it'll get you bigger. Long story short, and that's because it'll help you. If you need muscle mass and you're starting to carry weight, your body will put on muscle. But at the same time, if you're too big, it's going to be harder to cover all the miles on foot. So your body will tend to be like, all right, now that we're covering these long distances, we should probably drop some weight.
- [25:18]
Jenny Urchin
So you're, you're outside a lot. You got your dog and I just love it. And you're walking with your wife and you're in really cool, just beautiful outdoor settings. But you also talk in this book about, about while you're just doing your day to day, are you doing chores? Put on your backpack with your books in it, Wear your baby? Because one of the things that you talked about, and I thought this was really interesting, was that for a period of history people would have, and you said this at the beginning, they would have held the kids a lot more because they couldn't just put them down. So it might not be safe. What if there's a rattlesnake or something? So can you talk about just on the day to day? I'm going to read it. In all cultures around, across time, daily tasks must be done while caring for infants and small children. As time rolled on and we progressed into modernity, we could put our kids down for longer stretches of time. We didn't have to constantly carry our children because they were now protected from danger by the four walls of our home. Then obviously you talk about adding strollers and other things, but in your day to day this doesn't just have to be when you're out on some gorgeous walk or a specific time set aside for it. You could be doing it a lot.
- [26:29]
Michael Easter
Yeah. I'll give you an example is that in the last spring, so spring of 2025, I did this really long hike. It was like 850 miles. It took like 45 days and I had to have a pack on my back the whole time.
- [26:45]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [26:45]
Michael Easter
And so I was like, how am I going to get ready for that? To literally walk for 12 hours with a pack on my back. I can't just go out and start walking around all day because I have work to do right as I'm training. And so what I would do is I would just throw on a pack. As I'm doing everyday stuff. If I'm going to get the mail, our mailbox is like maybe a quarter mile from our house. I'm going to throw on that pack. If I'm vacuuming, I'm going to throw on that pack. If I'm insert xyz, I'm going to throw on the pack. It's like I already have to clean the house, I already have to get the mail. So if I can just add this pack to that, all of a sudden, I start to get more from that activity without having to have this special moment that is exercise. So I think one of the issues with how we as a society view exercise today is that it's become like this special, unique thing in the sense that, oh, I go run on the treadmill or ride the exercise bike for 30 minutes, and that is my exercise time. And then for the other 23 hours, 30 minutes a day, I'm mostly sedentary. So one of the big pushes that I try and do in my newsletter and in this book is like, how can you just add more movement into your everyday life and make tasks that you already have to do maybe a little bit harder if you want to throw on a pack, because then you're going to get so much more from that. And you can still do your 30 minutes of exercise, but in that 23 hours, 30 minutes, you've packed in all this movement that is really going to enhance your life. And if you look at the research on this, most people day to day burn more calories just from everyday movement than they do from exercise. So if we can amp that up, all of a sudden, all our health metrics go in the right place. And again, you didn't have to interrupt your life doing this. You didn't have to drive to the gym. You didn't have to be like, oh, I put on my special running shoes and shorts and shirts and then I went out and run. It's like, no, I just did my normal life, made it a little harder. And look at me now.
- [28:48]
Jenny Urchin
Okay, so there's a lot of moms that listen and they're doing all of these things, right? They're trying to make food. And I think this is a really good point that you brought up. It's like, okay, if, you know, your kid can't be on the ground because there's rattlesnakes or whatever, you would carry them. And so we are in this day and age where there's just so many containers to put babies in. It's like the bumble seat and the exerciser and the little jumping swing, and there's just so many of them, Michael. So you talk in this book, just a reminder, like, okay, if it might be a backpack because you don't have kids, but if you have kids, and really, even up to age 3, sometimes they'll go, our kids loved it. The baby carrier. So can you talk about some of the benefits of choosing to do that instead of setting them into those little containers? It's actually, of course, obviously it's good for you as the adult because that's the, that's that extra weight bearing situation. But it's also really good for the child. So it's two parts. One is the human interaction and the second, which this is counterintuitive, they actually will gain important physical skills while they're being carried.
- [29:54]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So to tell, to talk more about the human interaction is if the, if the child is on the ground and I'm having an interaction with another human being, they're not really seeing that. Whereas if the, if I'm holding the kid or the kid is strapped to me, they're at a face to face level with that other person and they're seeing how we're communicating and they're starting to pick up developmental things in that process because they're engaged with other people and they're saying, oh, this is how people interact. And that seems to sort of better stimulate these things that we want to happen in babies as they develop. And then the second part is there's all these reflexes that kids have that seem to have come from the fact that they were carried for most of time. So when you put your finger in a baby's hand, they often cling. That was kind of a, that was a reflex that helped them stay upright when caring. A lot of times you'll see a kid, their necks are kind of doing this all the time. That was also from caring. And there's different scientific names for these reflexes that we don't need to get into. But long story short is they are important for human development for kids. So I think there is a strong case for if you can carry your kid, try and do it as often as possible because it's going to be good for you and it's going to be better for them.
- [31:14]
Jenny Urchin
That's right, yeah. So this is in your everyday life and you talk about it. Even if you've got a work related call, you're like, don't sit. In fact, of all of the podcast interviews and I'm, I'm over 700 that I've actually had conversations with at this point, only one person ever took the call walking. And it was walking outside and it was Dan Buettner, who is the Blue Zones guy. And it was like totally on brand because he, like he was just on the phone and he just. I probably had an ear thing in and he was walking and, and I feel like really related to longevity. That's what he talks about. Can you talk about the specifics of travel because this is one thing that comes up and I relate to this because, I mean, I, I kind of hate traveling. I'm like, you're just so thrown off, you don't feel good. But you talk about how walking with weight can help you to maintain your fitness and just feel better while you're traveling.
- [32:07]
Michael Easter
Yeah. And I would say this probably really got cemented for me when I was doing the book tour for my last book, Scarcity Brain, because I was in like three, four different states a week. And so I'm on planes, airports all the time. It totally screwed up my timing for whether I could exercise. So I would show up at the airport and it's like, well, yeah, I could just like sit at the terminal and scroll on my phone or I could just walk the terminals. And so that's what I did. I'd usually have a pack that had, you know, my carry on stuff, laptop, couple books, water, whatever. Maybe it weighed, I don't know, £15 or something. And I would just walk the terminals. And I'm one of those psychopaths who likes to arrive at the airport early because I'm like, I do not want to be stressed out and be late. So I would walk and if I'd have a layover, I'd walk. And at some of these, you know, in an hour you can walk probably the average person will cover three miles. That's significant. And you also have, you're also carrying something, so you've burned 3, 400 calories when otherwise you just would have been sedentary. Especially because for me, it's like I'm going to sit on the plane and not be able to move for three hours or whatever it is. Why wouldn't I just walk around? Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's like those simple. It's that it goes back to that 2% idea. If I have something that I already have to do and I can make it a little more active, a little harder, but it's going to give me this giant benefit in the long run. Like, you got to take that. And I think we have to be creative today because we have made the world so comfortable where we can just sit if we want to, where we can ride the escalator, where we can. The minute we feel boredom or anything, we just pull out our phone and scroll on Instagram. And it's like, you gotta, you gotta get creative today if you want to live healthier and better and more mentally. Well, I would argue, yeah.
- [33:58]
Jenny Urchin
And more social. I mean, that's one of the big things you talk about in the book too.
- [34:03]
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- [36:21]
Jenny Urchin
I think that there's not a lot of exercise that you can do side by side. Somebody else. So it's just combining a lot of parts of wellness into one. You even talk about how do you avoid sweating? So when you talk about, you know, getting in some extra movement at work or at the airport, you're like, there's a lot of ideas in here. People can pick it up and read it. It's called walk with weight. How do you avoid sweating? And you're like, well, one of the ideas. And there's several of them, but you're like, just bring an extra shirt. You know, like know that you're going to be walking through the airport, so have something extra there if you need it. Yeah.
- [36:53]
Michael Easter
People, when I would post that online, people, I can't do that. I'm gonna sweat, whatever. And it's like, well, I'm not telling you to, like, try and train for the special forces in terminal B here. I'm literally just saying, like, yeah, just stroll the terminals. Like, you're probably not gonna sweat. And if you do, bring another shirt, get a cold drink and drink it as you walk. Like, there's a million things you could do. So you don't, you know, end up a sweaty mess on. On the plane.
- [37:15]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. You know, like running through at top speed with this heavy backpack on for hours. And there's a bunch of ideas in there. And you say by sneaking in more activity across the day, you're beating back an early death while also enhancing your life. And it's so interesting, Michael, isn't it? Like, everyone has a million excuses. Like, here I am, I'm doing this. And they're like, I couldn't do it. I get too sweaty.
- [37:39]
Michael Easter
So you cover everything in the book. Yeah. You just gotta, like, kill your excuses and find solutions. Gotta have a solution. Mindset.
- [37:48]
Jenny Urchin
Yes, yes. So this is going to help because it's going to lessen your chance of getting injured. So you talked about how when you get injured, a lot of times people they lose their whole exercise routine completely and maybe have a hard time getting it back. How in the world could this help with back pain?
- [38:04]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So when the weight is on your back. And this is somewhat counterintuitive. Interesting. Left enough, your back muscles actually work less than if you don't have weight on your back. So what happened? People go, well, how the hell does that work? The answer is that as you sort of tip slightly forward with the weight on your back, your abs engage much harder. So it's really working your. Your core and your abs muscles. And one of the main reasons for back pain is that people tend to have really weak cores today. And so your core is really meant to stabilize your spine. And so when people with weak cores, you know, bend down to pick up whatever it is, a bag of mulch or their kid, their core isn't strong enough to sort of protect their spine and then back. Something happens in back pain. So if you can. If you can walk with weight, your core is going to get stronger. That's helpful. And there's also a back health expert up in Canada that uses rucking with a lot of his patients to try and rehabilitate their backs. And it seems to work. It's like it kind of shuts off your back muscles a bit, gives your spine some gentle motion. It improves core strength. So it's counterintuitive, but all the data says it works. And I will say, kind of like Steve Rinella said, I don't need to study. Same with me. I've never had back problems and I've rocked a long time. And I do stupid stuff in the gym too, like deadlifts and I've been fine.
- [39:33]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, so you're like, hey, it's working for me. And that's something that a lot of people struggle with, is back pain. You're talking about building endurance. That's another thing. If you're running after kids, you know, or you wanna, you know, like in our situation, we've got these kids and then they're really little and then all of a sudden they're teenagers. And I'm like, I'm having a hard time keeping up with them. You know, I don't want to be left behind the pack. So I definitely want to build endurance. This helps with that. Your heart needs to pump more blood per. Well, per stroke. What is that? Maybe that had to do with swimming. But this is going to build your endurance as well.
- [40:08]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Okay, let's talk about the bone fractures
- [40:10]
Jenny Urchin
because we actually have a family member who broke her femur this past year. And she's in her 70s and has had a hard time, Michael. Like she's still alive. So she's doing like she's got a good attitude, but. But she is still mainly in a wheelchair. And so it is interesting, like, even with the rehab and then there's surgery and then they mess up the surgery and they had to go back in and the screws are too long and they had to shave it down. And it's really been eye opening because I had read about it in your book years ago that for older women that break their hips or something. Is that it? There's like a really high percentage that they are going to pass away within one year.
- [40:49]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So this is where bone density becomes important. So rucking seems to improve bone density. There's a lot of different exercises that improve bone density. So my position on exercise is, like, do them all. But rucking does seem to be good for bone density. And to your point, this becomes important because if you fall when you're over, I think it's age 65, if you break a hip, about 30% of people at that age who break a hip are dead within like six months because they stop moving, activity goes downhill. They have to have all these crazy surgeries that often, you know, put them in a bad place. And so you really, you know, I think it's like one of those things where as we age, we're worried about heart disease, we're worried about cancer, we're worried about dementia, but not enough people are worried about, are my bones strong enough to take a hit? Should I slip on some ice or whatever it is?
- [41:48]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. And you talk about this as a male. I mean, we talk about it more for women, but also it's becoming a growing and significant threat to men as well. Everyone starts losing bone density around age 30. By post menopause, women begin losing it at a rapid and dangerous rate. This is why bone fractures are one of the biggest health threats to older women. Okay, so this is from the book. The book is called Walk with Weight. Women naturally lose as much as 8% of their muscle mass every decade. After 30 aging women in the US are 2, 5, and 8 times more likely to break a bone than they are to have a heart attack, get breast cancer, or have a stroke, respectively. Yeah, you're right. We don't. We're not talking about the bone health as much. We talk about those other things, but this is more likely. And the muscle mass.
- [42:37]
Michael Easter
Yeah, the muscle mass is important, too. And so I think especially so if you look at the numbers on how many people meet the federal exercise guidelines, which is 150 minutes of cardio ish work and then two sessions of strength training a week. I think about 26% of men hit them, but only 17% of women do. And the reason is the strength training is that women tend to strength train less than men. And so as you age, you want to be doing something that's working your muscles. Because strength is really important as we age just for our ability to live life. It's like that's what allows us to move around to do basic daily tasks. And I think sometimes that gets forgotten. But I will say I also understand why a lot of women don't want to go into a gym like the commercial gym, because it's filled with these like awkward, sweaty, grunting dudes. It's like, I don't even want to be there. It's terrible. So rocking, because you're carrying the weight, it allows you to work your muscles while you're also getting cardio, while you're also getting bone density benefits, while you're just stacking all these benefits into one act. And I think that can make it. You just get a lot of bang for your buck.
- [43:51]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. The book has so much information. You talk about how can you level up, you know, so you're like, you're going, you know, what can you change to level up? You talk about the hip belt and the sternum straps. You talk about just like I leave my bag on the porch, so when I go out to walk my dog, it's like it's ready to go right there. Warm ups are in here, blisters are in here. And I really loved the training plans. I thought this was a super practical thing to add into the book. So can you talk about the three tiered training plans that you have at the end of Walk with Weight?
- [44:26]
Michael Easter
Yeah, so I, I did three and they're separated basically into people who are just beginning people somewhere in the middle and then people who really want to go hard. And I've, I've done them by hours a week.
- [44:38]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [44:39]
Michael Easter
The training plan requires. How much time do you have? Yeah, how much time do you have? And so for the three hour one, most of the, there's obviously a lot of walking with weight across the week. But then I want you to be able, I want you to do two strength training sessions a week. But I've designed them so that you can just use your pack. You don't have to go to a gym, you don't have to go buy special equipment, just use your weighted pack. And then as you get into a five hour plan and then a seven and a half hour a Week plan. They kind of level up. You need a little more equipment, but those are for the people who are more dedicated, who want to push it. But I think that that three hour plan is great for the average person because it's just a lot. It allows you to hit those federal exercise guidelines. Like that is a really great starting point for health. All the research says if you can just hit that, you're going to be fine. You're totally fine.
- [45:30]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, less than 30 minutes a day is what that adds up to. And you can then level up. So I loved that it was separated by time and I thought that part was really helpful. You have QR code in here too. So there's other. I think that goes to the warmup.
- [45:44]
Michael Easter
Yeah, there's QR codes for. So I, I personally think that I, and I'll, I'll say this, that I worked at Men's Health magazine for a lot of years. I find those little exercise illustrations and written out descriptions totally confusing. Like you don't really know how to do the exercise. So the QR codes point to videos that show you exactly how to do the thing, which I thought was more useful.
- [46:06]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, so that's in the book too. Super helpful. You really did a phenomenal job. It's like a different, like you said, a little bit different style than the other book. But it is like you covered it all and you really made it accessible for people to start today. Like there was a quote, it was like in order to begin, begin, begin or something like that. It was great. All right, let's hit the nature part. So you got, you're going to have another book that's coming out so everybody can be real excited about that as well. At some point there's another book coming out, but you went on an 850mile hike across one of the most remote rugged landscapes in America for 45 days. At some point you were walking 40 miles a day.
- [46:48]
Michael Easter
We had a couple 40 mile days, yes. I'd say our average was probably 25 miles. And it really depends on the terrain. So this was a, this the way to think about what I did is it's a route, it's not a trail. So you basically wander out in the desert and you got to figure out how to get to the next location. And a lot of times, you know, you're walking across the desert and it's nice and flat and then all of a sudden, oh, there's a giant canyon with thousand foot walls. How are we going to get down this? So you have to really Figure it out as you go. So of course, as you're doing that, like, all right, that day is going to be like 15 miles. But then times, we would have times where there was these long stretches that were more open and we would get, get in a lot of miles because it really was just, okay, sun's up, wake up, pack up, camp, and then we're just gonna walk all day until the sun is down. So I definitely think I got far more than my 1000 hours in that 45 days.
- [47:46]
Jenny Urchin
Who'd you go with?
- [47:47]
Michael Easter
I went with one of my good friends. His name is Matt Sherman. Fascinating guy. He was the longest serving American in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. He was a sort of like off the books diplomat. He'd send him out to meet with warlords and terrorists, and then he'd come back and report to generals and help with strategy. And yeah, he was over there. He was in the war for 13 years. And after the war he just started hiking because he, you know, he hadn't spent any money for 13 years and made a salary with hazard pay. And now he just hikes around the world. That's basically what he does. I walk the earth. That's his quote. What do you do now? I walk the earth. It's awesome.
- [48:25]
Jenny Urchin
How'd you meet him?
- [48:28]
Michael Easter
He was my lifeline when I had to go to Iraq for scarcity brain. So if I were to find myself in trouble, I was given the number of this high ranking Iraqi politician and I was supposed to call this guy and just say eight words, I know Matt Sherman and I'm in trouble. And then someone would come and help me. So. And I'd never met him at this point. Like, I got, I got his name and number and everything from this friend of mine who was in the CIA over there for a long time. And so when I got home, I was like, I feel like I need to meet this Matt Sherman guy. And he came to Las Vegas for some event. So we went for a hike and we hit it off. And yeah, now we just do all sorts of wacky stuff together.
- [49:12]
Jenny Urchin
So a 45 day trip. You went on a 45 day trip? It's a long time with someone else.
- [49:17]
Michael Easter
It's a long time. It's a long time with anyone. Even yourself.
- [49:22]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
It is.
- [49:23]
Jenny Urchin
I can't really wrap my head, like when I talk about my dad and he's like, you know, he really loves to track his steps and he like, it's over a million steps a year. And I think that his. And he's retired but like, I think that his general approach of, like, making sure he's got three miles in my breakfast and, you know, however many he gets by the end of the day, it's a lot. I. I can't really wrap my head around 40 miles.
- [49:47]
Michael Easter
40 is a lot of miles. It's. You don't, you don't stop. You wake up early, you just walk. You walk at a decent pace. And then by, you know, by the time the sun's going down, you're like, okay, I'm done. And then you look at your whatever, your watch. I didn't have any tracking stuff, but Matt did. So you, you stagger into camp and he's like, oh, my gosh, we did
- [50:09]
Jenny Urchin
40 miles today, like in 12 hours or something.
- [50:14]
Michael Easter
I'm trying to think six to about eight. So like 12, 14 hours, something like that. And it's, and it's like the not. The not stopping is important. So I think. And this is getting into like, backpacker stuff, but a lot of backpackers will stop and have lunch for like an hour. It's like, oh, we got a rest and we got to have snacks and blah, blah, blah. No, we were just like, you stop for like five minutes and shove some food into your mouth, and then you're like, okay, keep going. But you get into a rhythm. I will also add that my 40 mile days did not happen on day one. They were like on day 30, something. So you've been training yourself for 30 days, doing 25 miles a day, and then you just get the right terrain and you're just, you just turn into like some sort of crazy animal that can just walk. I'll also say that's how humans were for all time. We used to have to walk. We used to walk 10, 20 miles a day on average, you know, and that's how, that's just how it was. So that, like, what I was doing, it seems totally insane, but that is far more normal in the grand scheme of human history than the way we live today.
- [51:24]
Jenny Urchin
Right. You wrote the real transformation was internal. Somewhere along the trip, I stopped hearing the usual mental chatter and started hearing myself again. Can you talk? Then, as we're wrapping it up, just about your time in nature. I mean, you've spent a lot of time in nature. You talk about this in Walk with Weight, and I'm sure you'll be talking about it in the book that's coming out next. But you say nature is like organic Xanax.
- [51:46]
Michael Easter
Yeah, I think. I mean, nature really is for me, you know, I Don't. I'm not a religious person in the sense that I don't have a specific religion I adhere to, but I definitely believe in something bigger than myself, and I find that outside. And I think that there's a lot of scientific reasons why that might happen, but to me, they're not as important as how I actually feel when I'm out there and the thoughts I have and, like, the connection to just something bigger, it makes you feel small. And I think that's important today in a world where we're almost incentivized to try and feel bigger. It's like it just kind of puts you in your place. And I think it throws you up. I think it throws you up against tests and trials and adversity, and you have to figure things out. And in that figuring out, you realize you're capable of more than you thought and that you're just part of something bigger.
- [52:49]
Jenny Urchin
You say, I try to go out and walk every day. You're leading the way here, Michael. Walking through the airport with your back. You're walking outside every day. Got your dogs. It's not just for the steps. It's for unplugged time outside to clear my head. Do you have in mind the next adventure?
- [53:07]
Michael Easter
My current adventure is finishing a book, which is its own sort of fresh hell. But I will get it done, and then, I don't know, I'll figure out something. I'm always like, you know, a few months before I see something like, oh, that would be interesting. Let's go see what that's like. So I'm sure that'll happen. Who knows what it'll be?
- [53:25]
Jenny Urchin
You're such a fantastic writer. It's because you're a journalist. Journalists are such good writers. You taught journalism for a while, didn't you?
- [53:32]
Michael Easter
I did, yeah. I did that for seven years, probably.
- [53:36]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And then you go on these, like, epic adventures and you write about them so well. The books are called the Comfort Crisis, Scarcity Brain, Walk with Weight. There'll be a new one eventually. And then you also have your company, Walkfully. As we wrap up. Can you tell us about Walkly?
- [53:50]
Michael Easter
Yeah. So the reason for Walkfully is that I had noticed as especially more and more women were getting into walking with Weight, a lot of the existing gear in the market was built off of male bodies. A lot of pulled from the military effectively, and it often didn't work as well as it could for women in particular. And so I started thinking about, okay, well, how do we solve that? And I partnered with A guy whose name is Christopher Gavigan, who's launched some really great companies like the Honest Company. And he was thinking about the same question too. And so we partnered up. There's other people on the project and it's just been super rewarding and it's really on the foundation of walking. Walking is so underappreciated and if you can just add weight to makes it so much better. And so our goal is to give people tools to add weight to it. Specifically women tools that are designed for women. And it's been awesome so far. It's been a really fun project. I'm psyched about it.
- [54:52]
Jenny Urchin
People can go walkfully.com yep. Could you ever imagine that this is where your life would be? You were, you were still teaching the first time that we talked.
- [55:02]
Michael Easter
Yeah, I was. I, I think I stopped teaching at the end of 2023. No, I mean, look, when I decided I was going to be a writer, I just figured I'd live in my mom's basement my entire life. And I was okay with that though, because I loved writing. I'm like, ah, at least you get to do what you love. But yeah, it's worked out. I'm not recording this from my mom's basement.
- [55:22]
Jenny Urchin
Oh. I just think even that part of it is really incredible. Like it just goes to show you never know what's going to come. Like you go and you do this big tundra walk and you, you're learning about comfort and you, you have this major adventure, you know, flying in the. The book is fantastic and you just don't know what's going to come out of it. What, all the, all the spin offs.
- [55:41]
Michael Easter
It's also like you, like when you recorded your first episode.
- [55:45]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [55:45]
Michael Easter
Did you think you'd be 700 in and like doing all the stuff you've done? Yeah. No, you just gotta try stuff.
- [55:51]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. I even remember, I think it was a really big deal that you said yes. It's like my husband was like. I mean it was probably like a cheer screaming moment here when it was like Michael Easter said he'll come on. You know, it's just. Yeah, you never know. You never know. And so I love seeing the 2% stuff and I love that there's more books to coming and I love, I really love that my dad and brothers are going to listen to this. So hello to them because they're such huge fans. Michael, huge congrats on this new book. It is called Walk with Weight the Defin the Definitive Guide to Rucking. Thanks for being here.
- [56:26]
Michael Easter
You're an incredible podcaster. I so when I promoting the comfort crisis, I maybe remember three podcasts and yours is one of them. So there you go.
- [56:38]
Jenny Urchin
That's huge. Thank you.
- [56:39]
Michael Easter
So much fun. You make it fun. Thanks so much for having me.