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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 722: We've Sucked the Joy Out of Parenting | Dr. Kathy Hirsh-Pasek and Dr. Roberta Golinkoff, Einstein Never Used Flashcards
00:57:20
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I am joined today by a dynamic duo. A dynamic duo. Dr. Kathy Herst Pasek, Dr. Roberta Gollenkoff. And they are. I mean, they're heading to class to teach college students, but have this incredible, incredible set of accomplishments that they've gotten in their lives. And also they've written this book together. It's called Einstein Never Used Flashcards. It has been around for more than 20 years, and it's, I would say, more applicable today than ever. Been applicable the whole time and continues to become more applicable. This is about being hurried and frazzled parents and hurried kids and hurried educators and hurried parents. And what is the antidote. Welcome to you both.
- [00:48]
B
Well, thank you. And I just want to tell you this new edition, you're so right. That is when we looked at what was going on with the screen situation, and they asked us, would we just write a forward. We said, no, we have to rewrite the whole book. Do you know what's going on out there? So this is a totally rewritten, updated book that you can now get to also help you navigate screen time.
- [01:10]
A
Yes. It's fantastic. Give us a little bit of your backstory. How did you become this dynamic duo?
- [01:15]
C
Oh, we have Bernie, you do that one? Well, no, no. I can't even tell you when we met. It was so long ago. We've been collaborating over 40 years. I am not kidding. We were at a conference together, and we just clicked. And then I did a sabbatical at the institution Kathy was at for her PhD, and we decided to study how children understand language. And we wrote a grant, and the rest is history. But we became committed to sharing the science with people in the world and not just keeping it in the ivory tower. And now we see how it's needed more than ever because parents are feeling so anxious and guil at the same time. Because you can never do enough, according to the marketplace.
- [02:06]
D
That's right.
- [02:06]
B
And I think there's one other important part, for me, at least, of the backstory. When I first met Roberta, she was like one of the first people I had ever met. Get ready. Who was a scientist like me, but who absolutely 1000% put family first.
- [02:27]
C
Oh, yes.
- [02:27]
B
You know, like it. When it came to our kids, when it came to anything having to do with family, we would run out the door, Right? And I thought, this is my kind of person, you know, because we're like, we're doing this because we love kids and we love the science, but we really want to make it better. And it's because we prioritize raising good, good human beings.
- [02:53]
A
I love that you said that, Kathy, because I asked. I always ask at the beginning. I want to make sure that I know everything that's going on so we can let the audience know. So I was like, what besides the book, this fantastic book, this new edition, Einstein never used flashcards. What do we want to make sure everyone knows? And you're like, well, we have grandkids.
- [03:10]
C
You could let them know that Roberta
- [03:12]
A
has eight and I've got three. Can you talk to us about the college campus? You know, we've got a 17 year old, so that's our oldest child. We are on the cusp here. And, you know, you're like sending them off into the unknown. You know, you're kind of walking into this unknown territory. What's going on on college campuses? What are some changes that you've seen over the years? What do parents need to know?
- [03:34]
C
Wow. You know, good question.
- [03:37]
B
I think the pressures hit. Hit our college kids big time. I teach the honors course at Temple University and we always, like, make up a new topic every semester that we're going to study. So this year we decided we're going to study. My wonderful friend Susan Magsamon wrote a book youk Brain on Art. I'm telling you, everyone should read this book. No kidding. And it has a big component of nature and shows you why it's so powerful. But anyway, what I've noticed is it used to be I'd have a few students who needed accommodations every single year.
- [04:16]
C
Did you say what accommodations are, Dr. Hirshpasser?
- [04:18]
D
Yeah.
- [04:19]
B
Well, it just means you need extra time or having some struggles that you need that you're going through. About 90% of my students now need accommodations. It's not okay what's happening in the world for young people. You know, my students, just the ones who are in my class right now, they have lived through a pandemic when they were seniors. You know, they're living through a collapse of the world order as it used to be. They're living through the horrors that can sometimes come from social media that a lot of the social media companies want to deny. But there's no denying that it's not had the most positive effect. And I think, you know, as I see it.
- [05:09]
C
And then.
- [05:09]
B
Roberta, please chime in. I see it. We live in a world where we're constantly giving away our social capital and that human beings, what we're about is being human beings, like working with each other, standing with each other, having conversations with each other. And the more we're on, you know, and the more this comes at you like a torrent, the less we are with other people. And I think it's a real problem. And I'm seeing it come out in anxiety, I'm seeing it come out in depression.
- [05:47]
C
In the past, when I would enter a classroom where my students were waiting for me, I'm always early, but sometimes the students get there before.
- [05:55]
B
Never me, never me.
- [05:57]
C
I'm always early. In the past, they would be sitting around, their books would be open, they would be talking to each other. You guess what they're doing now? Nobody is talking to each other. They are sitting with their little devices, they are scrolling. They are having conversations with people elsewhere. And the earplugs, not the person next to them.
- [06:23]
B
Yeah, and the earplugs. And the earplugs. They're like tuned in, you know, and tuned out or plugged in and tuned out.
- [06:31]
C
I also know that there's a ton less reading for pleasure going on. Not because I say so, but because we see these statistics on scientific papers. And it's kind of sad that people aren't reading books for pleasure, because what happens when you read a book for pleasure? You know, Ginny, you get immersed, involved, and without even trying to, you're learning a million different things. New vocabulary, new capabilities that people have, et cetera, et cetera. They're missing out on so much by just turning to their social media instead of picking up a book.
- [07:15]
B
This is gonna sound crazy, I know, but, you know, take kid when he. It's he. Right.
- [07:22]
D
Yes.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah. When your son goes to college, tell him to still play.
- [07:28]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [07:30]
B
Get outside, kick a ball, get involved
- [07:32]
C
with some other people Activity. Yes.
- [07:35]
B
And don't feel like you're.
- [07:36]
C
Nah.
- [07:37]
B
All the time. Because I just feel like we've taken away a lot of the joy and everyone deserves joy.
- [07:45]
A
What a change to see that these kids and. And the point, yeah, they're sucked into the phone, but they also have the earplugs in. Who's gonna go talk up to someone who's got ear buds in and try and have a conversation. So it's shutting down this social part. And the book Einstein never use flashcards talks about. You use the phrase techno ference. And you had this. A situation where parents are with their kids. Parents are doing it too. They were on their phones from 25 to 75% of the time. And you wrote this we are competing against literally every piece of content.
- [08:20]
B
Yes.
- [08:20]
A
Ever produced.
- [08:22]
B
Yes.
- [08:23]
C
I love that you pulled that out.
- [08:24]
B
I said, and guess how often you check your phone.
- [08:28]
A
No, it's like, every five minutes or something.
- [08:29]
C
Yes.
- [08:30]
B
Yes. You hit it.
- [08:31]
C
Exactly. And that's been studied.
- [08:34]
A
So do you feel like. Are you talking about this with your students, like, or. It's. I mean, it's so tricky. It's part of the whole cultural landscape.
- [08:42]
C
Absolutely. And I'm teaching.
- [08:45]
B
That's why I'm teaching this course on art. We spent last semester wondering what is creating, like, all the hate and distrust in the world right now. And I said to them, okay, now we're going to have our mental health semester.
- [09:02]
C
Yeah.
- [09:03]
B
We're gonna do your brain on art. We're gonna talk about going outside. And if the snow ever disappears, because we live in Philadelphia and Delaware, then we're gonna have our classes outside. You know, we're gonna, you know, connect a little with each other. I also. We're trying an experiment. I told them that I will give them literally everything they need before each class, and I would prefer that we talk with one another and as a discussion, and put the computers and all the phones away. And they have done it, and they're telling me it's a much richer environment.
- [09:37]
A
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. And what an influence that you can have, because these are people who have grown up with technology their whole lives. And so to have an experience where it's put away and they can have conversations, I would imagine is so powerful for this book. Einstein never used flashcards. We're talking about college students. But you're going all the way through, from birth, all the way through childhood, talking about that the joy has been removed from parenting. We sucked all the joy out of it because we're rushing and we're nervous and we're, you know, we're scared, and are they gonna be okay? And we are hurried. So can you just push back against the myth that faster and earlier are better?
- [10:18]
D
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [10:20]
B
Go ahead, Roberta.
- [10:21]
C
You know, we. We thought hard about what the myths are that parents today and in the past. But today is crazy, Are working under. And they are told by the marketplace and also influenced by the Joneses down the street who have five kids and seem to do everything and everybody is mentally well. Nonsense, nonsense. Faster is not better. And this is one of the reasons why we have kids being expelled from preschool. You heard me right. Expelled from preschool. It's because we are putting demands on children that are not Appropriate for kids. You can't expect little boys and active girls to sit in seats and do worksheets when they're four. That's not what it's about. And the research tells us, which we review in Einstein. There's no big advantage to learning this stuff earlier because when you're ready and people don't have to engage in drill and kill with you to get it in your little head, but when you're ready, you pick it up more readily and you're just as good as the kid who was drilled and killed and gave up play to be able to do that. So what's the big deal about giving a play? Take it away.
- [11:44]
B
Can I jump in? Can I jump in? We're good at lecturing. We're sorry about that.
- [11:50]
A
I've had two of you.
- [11:52]
B
I'll give you a couple of real examples. So like ask the parents out there, like, how would you think, you know, that you get a pro ice skater, right? Or you get somebody who's gonna be like a concert master pianist or something, you know, so you would think, right, that when you're four or five, you should start them in the ice skating rink and really give them tons of lessons, right? And you should getting piano lessons very, very early. So, you know, I could see how people could think that. But then it turned out these colleagues of ours did this study where they looked at world class performers and they asked, you know, well, gee, did they start out as like kids who were really practicing, practicing, practicing ice skating or piano? And guess what?
- [12:47]
C
They weren't.
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B
They were the meanderers. It said in the paper, they're the ones who tried out a lot of different stuff and then they found out, wow, I really love this. So you know how like a lot of kid actors rarely make it into being adult actors. It's kind of the same thing. And now it's, you know, this classic experiment just came out like a few months ago. And then there was another one that always caught my eye. You know this, you better read early. So in New Zealand, there, New Zealanders are very sane. They go by the term Kiwi. And I've had the pleasure of spending a little bit of time there in Australia. And they're, they're really, they're really cool. They get it. So they, they decided that, you know, kids should learn to read when they're ready to read, which is, you know, around age. I know, isn't it shocking like 6, 7? You don't have to like start learning phonics when you're Toilet training. You know what I mean?
- [13:45]
C
So.
- [13:47]
B
So they wondered if, like, their kids were going to be behind in reading. And guess what? They aren't.
- [13:55]
C
Nope. Same thing with Finland. Yeah.
- [13:57]
B
And then last but not least, you know, a study that I did in Philly, I looked at these two preschools. One was what you might call an academic Y preschool, and another was one where you got to explore more and discover more and build your curiosity and creativity. Gosh knows, at that time, I didn't even know the term AI. Okay, and now if creativity and curiosity is more important than ever. But what did we find? Oh, yeah, the kids in the academic school. Well, when the kids were four, they were ahead. But guess what happened? By the time they were six, they weren't ahead anymore.
- [14:35]
A
Yeah.
- [14:35]
B
Roberta, you wanted to add something?
- [14:38]
C
Oh, I want to hear what Denny wants to say. Go ahead, Jenny.
- [14:41]
A
Well, can I read from your book? Because it's so well written.
- [14:43]
B
Please.
- [14:44]
C
Oh, thank you.
- [14:45]
A
You use the phrase that they are cheated out of being able to play. So the academic. You brought this up, Kathy. The academic preschools versus the traditional preschools, which you would think, like, when you're a preschool, you just go and you finger paint. I mean, that's what you do, right? You stack blocks with other kids. So academic preschool just seems like such an odd pairing of words.
- [15:09]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:10]
B
That's beautiful.
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A
And you say this. When we rush learning, we often try to teach things that make little sense to the child and that would be better learned at a later age. You brought up reading.
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D
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A
I love this phrase, emergent literacy. It takes the pressure off. Can you talk about that? It just comes in time.
- [19:05]
C
Sure. So what matters for kids? Does it matter to drill them on S sounds like S and B sounds like boo? No, that doesn't matter. They pick that up. Incidentally, what really matters is reading with your kid hundreds of years. Well, maybe not hundreds. I tend to exaggerate. But at least 50 years of research has shown us that reading with your child, we're going to use a fancy word now in a dialogic way. What that means is it's a dialogue. I had someone highly educated who is a friend who happened to write to me to say her child was being asked to read at home for 15 minutes with a parent. They found it tortuous. And I said, are you talking about what you're reading? She said, no, we're just pushing to get through it. I said, there's the mistake. Mistake. I said, back up. Set the context. What are we going to read about today? Oh, remember, you did something like that. Set the context. Get them excited about it. Don't stick to the words on the page. And you do this starting when the kid is practically newborn. You talk about what you're reading. You talk about and ask questions about the images on the page. And if the child points to something, that little pointing finger rules because that means that's what the kid is interested in. That's where you go and you say, oh, yes, I see. You see that dog? It's just like Nana's. Why does talking and interacting during reading matter? It's because it makes reading delicious for you and the kid. And this mother wrote me back and said, what a difference. We have had such a good time.
- [21:08]
B
Now I have to put in a Wonderful little anecdote that I heard about from friend of ours in New York. So, you know, like everybody talks about read and teach and you're the kid's first teacher and oh my God, what the pressure. I can't even believe it. So read, read, read, read. So one day she goes into a laundromat and she sees this, this woman who speaks Spanish and she's with her with her 2 year old on her lap in the laundromat, reading the Bible. Reading the Bible. So my friend walks up to her and says, that's great choice of book, but I'm wondering if you think your kid is really understanding anything that you're reading. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter. We just have to read.
- [21:59]
C
That's why when we speak to parents, Ginny, we can't just take for granted that people know that reading should be a pleasure. For many people, the idea is you pick up any book and it's a chore. And that is a bad thing for you and a bad thing for the kid because you reduce your stress when you cuddle up with a kid and read a book. In fact, I remember falling asleep lying down with my kid. Right. You're so tired and reading a book. And the kid would poke me and say, keep going, keep going. But that's when you see how relaxed you get when you read a book with a kid and have this kind of back and forth dialogue. It really becomes a pleasure for both.
- [22:47]
A
Yes. Okay, so in the book, Einstein never used flashcards. Reading should be fun. It should not be work. And this emergent literacy takes the pressure off, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because it comes gradually, not abruptly. And the dialogue dialogic. Did I say that right? Reading, make sure that you pick up on the child's interest. I actually do. My mom was so good at this and she, you know, we would look at the pictures and when I was a kid, I remember we did Highlights
- [23:13]
C
magazine and it would be like, I loved Highlights.
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B
Oh my God. Did you love the hidden pictures?
- [23:19]
C
Yeah.
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A
And they would have these.
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C
Yes, with my grandkids. I love it.
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A
Highlights is great. When I was a kid, they would have these stories with pictures.
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C
Yeah.
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A
So your mom would read, you know, your parent would read part of it and then there would be a picture.
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D
Like you would.
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B
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
You would get to say that the thing like that is, to me, emergent literacy. You're starting.
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C
Exactly.
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B
Completely.
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D
Completely.
- [23:43]
B
Listen, the thing, the thing to recognize in the fancy term dialogic is look what What? It's made of dialogue.
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C
Right.
- [23:51]
B
It's like, you know, it's just about having dialogues with your kid while you're reading. And I always think of it as kind of going beyond the covers of the book.
- [24:00]
A
Oh, yes. My favorite kids book by far is called Seven Silly Eaters and the. The illustrator is Marla Frazee. I don't know quite how you say it. I mean, her pictures in all the books that she's ever illustrated. There is so much to look at. So, so fun with kids. I love that you're talking about this. Make it fun. So in Einstein, never use flashcards. You are going to get a little relief from the hurry and get some perspective on how do these things actually happen and what is my role here? And I don't have to push, push, push. So far, you really are talking about play, promoting play. Children need to play more. Never is this message more important than it is today. And this is a topic we have never Talked about in 700 episodes on this show, about getting kids outside and playing imaginary friends.
- [24:52]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [24:53]
C
Oh, yes. So a woman at the University of Oregon found out of scientists, even at 11 years of age, kids have imaginary friends. Parents do not freak out. It's a wonderful thing and it predicts to your children's creativity. Recently my younger son told me when he was a kid, I had no idea he did this and he was an old kid already. He would play a game where the fingers on his hand were family members and he, he didn't need any props and he would have them talk to each other. So play continues underground because we seem to frown on it. But even grown ups need to play. Even grown ups need adult recess and we need to get out and get off our phones and our duffs. It's much healthier and it's certainly healthy to try to build up these muscles for exercise. And wanting to play when your kids are little, you want them to feel how important it is to use their bodies.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah. Yes.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And I'd say, you know, it is, you know, we still play, so.
- [26:13]
C
Yep, we do.
- [26:14]
B
Like, we just grew up and took a profession where we could play every day. And I know it sounds.
- [26:20]
C
We work really hard. Kathy makes it sound like we wake up and play and that's all we do.
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B
I think people know that, Roberta. I don't think it is it, but. But I think, you know, when people kind of change the frame and give themselves a little bit of adult recess, especially, I mean, work is hard, you know, and. And sometimes you just need a Break. You need to go outside. You need to see the beautiful tree that you keep missing every. Every time you walk in to your office. You need to maybe have lunch with someone and just have a conversation that isn't rushed all the time.
- [26:56]
C
What a shocking idea.
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B
Yeah, I mean, it's really.
- [26:59]
C
I remember when my second child was born, I thought, oh, that's the end of lunch. Right. But I made myself continue to go because the hours seem more precious because you're getting more things done. But it was crucial to talk. I'm afraid people are just on their phones now. It was crucial to talk with another parent who was going through the same thing I was.
- [27:26]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [27:27]
C
Really important to get together, especially when you have newborns.
- [27:32]
B
Like, you can't even believe what happened to you, you know, And I think, oh, this is normal. And, you know, you can look it up now on all these 3 million apps for newborns. But imagine if you can just talk it out with someone. You get into a mommy group. I'm finding the mommy groups actually saved my life.
- [27:52]
C
Yes.
- [27:53]
B
You know, I know it was so the kids were supposed to play, but honest to God, it was for me. And now some of my dearest friends who I stayed dear friends with since the mommy groups.
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C
Yes. I see a person at my tennis who is a dental hygienist. She tells me parents show up so stressed.
- [28:15]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [28:15]
C
Because they feel like they have to fit this in. Then they have to go two other places, then they have to take the big one here and the little one there. It's really hard to be a parent. Now. We're. Kathy and I are not saying give it all up. You know, go. Go lay down on the living room with them and play blocks the whole time. We're not saying that everybody wants their kid to do great and to have some enrichment. An instrument, an art class, religious instruction of some sort. People like, sure do that. But do you have to start when Your kid is 18 months and go to French? I don't think so. And I think that puts a lot more pressure on you. There are children who don't know where they live because they spend so much time in the car seat going back and forth to activities. Are those mothers any happier? I think they're less happy because they feel this pressure so acutely that they sign up for things that Ms. Jones down the block signed up for, even though they think, not sure he really needs advanced computing at the age of four. Yeah.
- [29:30]
A
You wrote, we know what to do, but we just can't Bring ourselves to do it. We are afraid that if we trust our instincts, our children will be missing out on learning some critical skills. So there is an entire chapter in Einstein never used flashcards about play. Chapter 10. The whole chapter is about play. Play builds versatile and supple intellectual skills. Play is the place where problem solving comes alive. You're talking about boredom, having the ability to stimulate themselves and become better planners and copers. You're talking about the pretend play, the private speech, the imaginary friends.
- [30:05]
D
Listen to this.
- [30:06]
A
Children with imaginary companions tend to be more intelligent and more creative than children who don't have such friends. Yeah. Children are at their. And this is a quote from someone else, but children are at their highest levels of development when they play. And this. The benefits of social play are many. Yet perhaps the biggest one of all. Cross cuts the others. Children who play are happier.
- [30:31]
C
Yes. Yeah.
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B
Joy.
- [30:34]
A
What if we have happy kids?
- [30:37]
B
By the way, happy kids equals happy adults.
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C
Sure, sure.
- [30:43]
A
Yes, we have. We shouldn't suck all the joy out of parenting. You wrote we're not having much fun at parents parenting, which should be one of the greatest moments of our life. So in talking about myths, here's another one because you just brought it up with, you know, the comp. High level computing class at 4. Here's a myth. Parents are brain sculptors.
- [31:02]
C
Yes.
- [31:03]
A
They are responsible for molding the intelligence and capabilities of their children. I mean, this can't possibly be true because if you talk to people who grew up in 1962, their parent didn't even know where they were.
- [31:17]
C
You are so right. And if you have more than one child, you see how different the kids are.
- [31:24]
D
That's right.
- [31:25]
C
And you may think that you are sculpting and pushing them into this direction or that, but the research tells us the minute they have control, they walk away from that stuff and do what they want to do. You can give them a good foundation. Absolutely. Again, you can have enrichment activities. But don't think that because you're doing this kind of enrichment activity versus that kind that your kid is going to go in that direction. Children literally have minds of their own and we want to be there to support them in whatever direction they want to fly.
- [32:04]
B
Did you ever hear the great joke, Ginny? It says the parents of one child believe it's all environmental and the parents of two children, there's. Oh, no, we have less to do with it. They're born the way they're born.
- [32:20]
C
Yep.
- [32:21]
A
Yeah. So, okay. Help convince us of this statement, children.
- [32:25]
D
And this is from your book, Einstein Never used flashcards.
- [32:28]
A
Children are the engines behind their own development.
- [32:32]
B
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, all of us when we're little, we have like, interest things that seem to draw us. We. We have different temperaments. You know, some of us need more constant stimulation. And some of us would just like to be at home doing a puzzle upside down, you know what I mean?
- [32:52]
C
And.
- [32:53]
B
And we have to parent those to those differences. And I think we're so much better off if we follow the kids lead. There's a beautiful little study in language development, and it shows that the parents who know how to look where the kids look at how sophisticated this is, look where your kids are looking at and then comment on it. Okay? Those kids end up with more language than the parents who try to redirect where the kids should look so that they'll learn the words. So again, it's not to say should never redirect. It's just that you should be attentive, be a good observer.
- [33:33]
C
Oh, I love that you said that, Kathy, because you reminded me of a family I studied many years ago. Of course, I will never say their name, but the mother was a graduate student and she would be home studying, and the same time she was taking care of her baby. And I came in with my video camera behind the. And I would watch them at lunch. Yeah, this mom would be feeding the child and putting stuff out on the tray, and the kid would ask for more. And she was clearly asking, like, for more grapes. And the mother would say, oh, you want more cheese? I was behind the screen staring my hair out. Of course I couldn't say anything. This child didn't talk till she was about 36 months. Why is that? Why is that? It's because the mom didn't honor what the child was interested in and pointing at and requesting and instead was giving the child something for some reason she thought the child should have. So what Kathy is saying is so right on. And that's what the literature tells us too. When you talk about what your kid is interested in and what your kid wants, the child will learn more. More because their antennae are up. They're already interested. They're already paying attention. And when you feed that interest, that's when they learn. Notice, no drilling, no flashcards. Just back and forth talk. That's it.
- [35:09]
A
And how fun is that? Yes, because kids are fun. And they're funny.
- [35:15]
C
Yes, they are. They're so funny.
- [35:18]
D
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- [37:32]
B
You know, there's, there's one other thing I, I just thought maybe I'd, I'd put in there, which is you can have these conversations even when our kids are babies. So I, I have a four month old granddaughter right now. And I notice, you know, when I watch parents form four month olds, so often the parent jumps in trying to get the kid to coo or to burp or whatever. And, and I'm so pleased that my kids, as I watch them, they wait for my kid, the little one, the four month old to and, and after they do that, they mimic it and then she wants to do more, more. Already they're following her interest dominate. And when you jump in too soon and you fill all the spaces as adults are want to do, we don't know how to cope with that. Just one other example. In Philadelphia we have this place called the Please Touch Museum. One of my favorite pieces of the Please Touch Museum is there's this elephant and this elephant of it is made out of, you know, I don't know, stuff they probably collected on the floor and made it into an art exhibit. There's bottle caps and there's, you know, shiny things and there's non shiny things and there's pencils and pens and artwork.
- [38:56]
C
Okay.
- [38:57]
B
So of course when a kid walks into the Police Touch Museum, the parents, you know, they have paid to enter into the Police Touch Museum. The kid wants to stop at the elephant. Of course they do. They want to find every little piece of what's stuck in that elephant. And the parents, you see them like dragging them away from the elephant to go do what they paid for.
- [39:19]
C
Exactly right.
- [39:21]
B
And if you just followed their lead, oh my gosh, imagine what your kid would notice. The curiosity and creativity. And that is, that is going to be the kingpin. And for an age of AI, we may have our kids. Maybe you want your kids to grow up like the robot, but I promise AI will do better than our kids will. So we gotta train them in the suite of skills that will help them grow.
- [39:49]
C
Right? And before we talk about that suite of skills, I gotta share one more anecdote. When Kathy and I are so lucky, we were invited to teach a course in Hawaii. I know, I know, it was amazing.
- [40:06]
B
Amazing.
- [40:07]
C
And Kathy brought along her oldest son and wife and their new baby. The baby was only about eight weeks the whole vacation. And I think this will shock people and I call it a vacation because we worked hard and we taught. But this is Hawaii. You know, so. So the whole vacation was spent around getting Ellie to vocalize back to us. Now, your listeners probably don't realize the capability that babies this young have, but if you give the kid a little time to respond and the baby goes ooh, and you go, oh, the baby will do it again. And you'll get into a whole, whole cycle of repetition with this baby. In the fancy language of psychology, we call this a proto conversation. Proto because it's empty. There's no meaning. But what's happening in the back and forth, that's the meaning that you're interacting with this baby. Who knows you now and who knows that if they do something, you're there for them because. Because you can mimic what the sounds are that they make and. And you're there for them. It tells them that.
- [41:29]
A
Oh, I love that example. It reminds me of the emergent literacy.
- [41:32]
C
Yes, it's emergent language. You're so smart, Jenny. You're. We're gonna give her an A, right, Kath?
- [41:41]
B
Oh, man, she's the best.
- [41:42]
C
A plus.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah. And then, goodness, what a thing they're learning. Like you talked earlier about tennis. Isn't that a way that people talk about 10 conversation? You pass the ball back, don't talk the whole time, and they're already learning it at 8 weeks or 10 weeks old.
- [41:57]
B
That's amazing.
- [41:58]
C
And the fancy name that we give in the book, I believe is serve and return, which is like tennis. You. You put it over the net, they put it back. If you're lucky, you put it over the net, they put it back. And that's what this emergent language is about. Just like you say, Ginny, why don't we use that term? I love that term, emergent language. We should start that. Kathy, that's so good.
- [42:24]
A
It takes the pressure off. Emergent takes the pressure off. Because we often think they have to learn this thing right now at this age, instead of thinking they're doing this from the womb, they're learning language. They're listening to the pattern of language. So you talk and then you talk about. It's such a. The pressure is off. Because this is a book about her hurried. The antidote to hurried child and hurried parent and the hurry teacher. What is the antidote? That kids are the engines behind their own development. Children operate like little scientists. Babies are born pattern seekers. You write in the book.
- [42:59]
C
Yes, it's true.
- [43:00]
B
Isn't that amazing? They have so many capabilities that I think it. It's mind. It really is mind blowing. And I find each time I Watch it. I'm amazed yet again. You know, like as I said, I have this four and a half month old baby. So of course I call every night to look and see what she's doing. So the other day, I'm watching and my son says, hey, look, she had just learned to reach and grass. We were like really excited about that. And so my son holds out a tomato. Now you got to know, like to see some of this stuff, which is what Einstein never use flashcards is about.
- [43:40]
C
Yes.
- [43:40]
B
How do you learn to see it? So he holds his hand out and in his hand is a tomato. A bright red tomato. Okay. And my little kid, I told you, she's a new reacher. Right? And normally when they reach, they do this thing where they use their whole hand to try to grab anything and pull it, you know, into their mouth for the first time. She puts out her hand and she opens up two fingers and she takes these two fingers against the thumb and she goes in and she grabs the tomato. And I said, oh, oh, that was a mo. That is like drama. Like you're watching theater. And so my kids are. What did you notice? What did you notice again? In Einstein Avenue Flashcard, we show you all of these moments of emergent everything.
- [44:31]
C
Yes.
- [44:32]
B
You'll see that if you just notice, see them. You don't want to substitute that with anything. You just want to notice and go, wow.
- [44:39]
C
So I'm going to bring this back to your question. You said, why should we believe children on the engines of their own development? This is it. What we try to do for parents in school. I never use flashcards will show them how children a want to learn. They don't need drill and kill. If you present them with information in a playful and meaningful and fun way, they'll suck it up. They want to learn. And second of all, they come in with amazing capabilities which they continue to learn, refine by virtue of their interactions with you. This goes through the time that they go to, to middle school. The interactions they have with you teach them so much about the world. And the playful interactions they have with you are the ones that build their brains. Because what we have learned, and, and this is amazing, is that how we play is exactly how the brain grows. Think about that. So when you allow your child, as opposed to the drill and kill, throw that out. When you allow your child to engage in playful interactions with you, with their sibs and with their peers, that's when they're learning. How much did you learn from your peers? Not all good.
- [46:14]
A
Yes, yes. I mean, I love that you wrote in this book that this is on their own. You wrote, seven months into pregnancy, babies are already eavesdropping.
- [46:24]
C
Yes.
- [46:25]
A
Such great writing on their mother's conversation.
- [46:28]
C
Yeah.
- [46:29]
A
A baby tunes in when their mothers talk or when there are family talks with the cooing back and forth. They're tuning in. So what if thing to remember that children are the engine behind their own development. Now you talk in this book about how David Elkind, which I actually have this book, wrote a book called the Hurried Child. And he wrote about this a long time ago.
- [46:52]
C
Yes. I think it was the 80s, 1990s.
- [46:55]
A
Yeah. Can you imagine, you know, back then when there weren't this youth sports culture like it is today and there wasn't cell phones and there wasn't television on demand, he talked about the hurried child. There were already signs that children were being treated like adults.
- [47:12]
C
Yes.
- [47:13]
A
So you say that's the age of the hurried child. We're still there. Now we've added in the hurried parent. One of the things that I think is an impetus to that hurried feeling is another myth that you discuss in Einstein.
- [47:28]
D
Never use flashcards.
- [47:30]
A
It's the myth of the first three years.
- [47:34]
C
And some very well meaning people put that out. For example, the late Rob Reiner was, was a champion of children and he worked with some scientists and they wanted to get more attention to early childhood. And the way they did that and the best of intentions was to say that the first three years of life are really so much of what matters. Well, the first three years of life matter a lot. There's no question about it. That's when you lay down your basic trust in the world. Right. If you have people who aren't responding to your needs, you'll be a different person.
- [48:14]
A
Right.
- [48:15]
C
But the first three years are not everything. It continues all along. And that is such a pessimistic way of thinking of it in a way, because if you don't have a fabulous first three years, you're doomed on that story. No, no, Everything counts. Every experience that your child has with you, with others, with their peers, really makes a difference. But now I got to tell you the downside. The downside is the first three years are when really important things happen, like language development, development. And we're here to tell you that it's really unfortunate, but the advent of the cell phone is keeping parents from having these proto conversations with their kids. They turn to the phone immediately right after they finish taking care of the kid. We understand that because we're addicted to our Phones, too. Although we try to modulate. You get a dopamine hit every time you pick up your phone and something is on there. Of interest, that dopamine hit is now, for many people, taking over the time that they would have spent talking with their kid. Just think of strollers. You take your kid out in a stroller. Before the cell phone, what were you doing? You were saying to the kid, see the doggie over there? Wow, look, that tree has red leaves. Look at that. Do they do that now? Not as much, because the kid is playing with the device while they're walking in the stroller, and they're on their cell phone with the ear pods, so they're not talking to the kid. So what we're doing without realizing it and with the best of intentions, is we're shortcutting our children from hearing our language and interacting with us to learn about the world. It's a very pessimistic view, but it's what's happening many times now, and it's very distressing to us.
- [50:22]
A
I talked to this man, Dr. Leonard Sachs, and he's a pediatrician.
- [50:25]
C
Yeah.
- [50:26]
A
He wrote a book called the Collapse of Parenting. And he would say that these moms would come in and they'd have to change their baby's diaper during the appointment, and they would say, how did people used to change diapers before cell phones? He was like, what do you mean? And they're like, well, we just give the baby the phone. And they watched SpongeBob SquarePants while I changed their diaper. And that reminds me of this proto conversation where you're two feet from your baby's face and you're talking while they change the diaper. How many times does it happen throughout the day? And they're missing it. They're both missing it.
- [51:04]
C
I'm gonna steal that anecdote.
- [51:06]
A
Yeah, it's in the claps.
- [51:08]
B
Amazing. That is truly amazing.
- [51:11]
C
You know how delicious it is to change a diaper when you're actually talking to a kid? Look at these feet. I mean, I can. I can almost feel it. Right? And you kiss each little foot and you make the baby laugh and you talk to the baby. What are you missing out on?
- [51:29]
B
To be honest, you know, changing diapers is a lot easier because they have the little paper diapers and they go into their place and it has a sticker on each side, and then you're done with the diaper. But of course, I don't think at the same time that we have to measure the weight of everything in the diaper each time and then put it on an app. You know, we probably could skip that part of it, but it sure beats what you have to do with a cloth diaper, right? Yeah.
- [51:59]
A
Pins, the whole thing.
- [52:01]
B
Right.
- [52:01]
A
Nobody even knows how good they've got it.
- [52:04]
B
Right.
- [52:04]
C
That's right.
- [52:05]
A
I read this book called the Invincible Brain by a man named Dr. Majid Fatouhi. And he was talking about how all through your life, if you work on your memory for 45 minutes, he's like, you can see micro changes in the brain. So this myth of the first three years is you want to, you want to support the child in their emergent self, in their engine behind their own development. Tons of interaction, put your phones away. But no, that growth can happen all the way throughout life. And so we don't have to be so hurried.
- [52:36]
B
By the way. By the way, it does. I mean, one of the, I think most amazing things that I remember in the last 20 years is that we learned that you have as much growth.
- [52:46]
C
Yes.
- [52:46]
B
In the adolescent brain as we do in the first three years. So I don't want parents to leave here thinking that the first three years aren't important.
- [52:56]
C
They are.
- [52:58]
B
It is a time when if you have just normal exposure to our normal, which is stimulating environment, things you don't think of, like, you know, being picked up and you see corners and you see light and you see, you know, things like tables and somehow the plate doesn't go through the table when you put the plate on the table. These are stimulating everyday moments for kids. And the first three years, our kids are adapting to our world, getting a lot of information in. And then there's this process called pruning which gets away, you know, kind of prunes away the stuff the brain really doesn't need. So it is an important period. But wow, you don't have to rush everything in the first three years. You really don't need to do it because there's a lot of time. And the best thing you can do, the very best, if we were to pick one human to human relationships, talking with, playing with, you talk about eating
- [53:57]
A
dinner as a family and don't get the AI toys that talk. So talking about a book that you wrote 23 years ago, and here's the new edition and you. And they said just do a new forward. You're like, no, no, we have to talk about all the technology, all the things that are changing. So this is a part of the book I want to just highlight so people know you talk about IQ and the difference between that and the six Cs, collaboration and communication and content and critical thinking, creative innovation and competence. And when children are playing, they are refining all these skills. So in the 21st century, this is what we need. And your book goes through all of those in depth. You talk about the Mozart effect. You talk about nature. I mean, there is so much to learn from this book. It is a fantastic book called Einstein. Never use flashcards. What an honor. And the two of you are such a fun duo back and forth, and I love that. So such an honor to get a chance to talk with you. I so appreciate your time and this incredible resource so that we can slow down and really enjoy. Enjoy our years as parents and our years as grandparents. We always end our show with the same question. I know you're heading to class. It's a favorite memory from your childhood.
- [55:03]
D
That was outside.
- [55:07]
B
Oh, my God, there's so many. When I was a little kid. I know that you could never do this today, but when I was a little kid, my mom used to put me in the front basket of her bike. And I loved it so much. And I remember feeling the wind, especially when we would bike at the shore, and how it just felt so powerful to me that I still get that rush. I go biking today because I love it so much. I just wanted to say one more thing before I let Roberta answer the question. Is that really, please, please, please, we are doing our best to put a lot of these moments for all of you on Instagram at Dr. Kathy with a K and Dr. Rowe. So that's Dr. K, T, H, Y and Dr. Ro. And if you have ideas what you'd like us to put on our Instagram, please just send it along long and we'll actually take you super seriously. And we will try to answer your questions. We really, really care that parents find love and joy in parenting again. And we know it's there.
- [56:26]
C
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So when I was a kid, I was lucky enough to live a block away from the beach. Brighton Beach. Yeah. And we would get on bikes and we would bike all the way to Coney island, which is probably about 2, 4 miles, something like that. It was so wonderful to have that freedom to be able to be with a bunch of kids. I hope kids have this today. Parents are so worried, and one of the reasons they're so worried is because of the news. The news doesn't say, and Johnny had a great time. The news only points out the bad things that happen. And we know when you hear those things enough, you think that's the way life is. It's not. We have to give our children some freedom. I had some freedom and I could ride my bike to Coney island and back and hang out with my friends and we could even go on the beach. We were so lucky when it wasn't summer and look at all the stuff that washed up. And that's when we could discover animals and fish and things that we would never have seen because they were up on the beach. They come up in the waves. That wasn't a bad childhood, come to think of it.
- [57:47]
A
So much freedom. And it's okay because if children are the engine to their own development.
- [57:51]
C
Yes.
- [57:52]
A
Then all of that freedom is so good for them. What an honor to the two of you. Just an absolute delight. Thank you for the book and thank you for being here.
- [58:01]
B
We can't wait to hear your podcast. And by the way, what was your favorite outdoor childhood moment?
- [58:07]
A
Oh, my dad, we would do these father daughter canoe trips with our church in October in Michigan. So you're in a canoe and you're in a coat. Oh, down the A Sable river it was called.
- [58:20]
D
And.
- [58:20]
A
And it was all my little friends from church and everyone's dad and my dad always played with everyone. I feel like I had the jackpot. I got the jackpot of the dad. So I still loved. I am actually doing this because I struggled as a young mom enrolling in all the things and I hated it. I hated that.
- [58:40]
C
But you felt like you had to do it.
- [58:42]
A
And then I went outside and I for a long period of time and it changed my whole life because then you see the kids are engaged. They are the engine behind their own development. And I can settle down a little bit.
- [58:58]
C
I must say this, I have never had such a knowledgeable interviewer. Never, never, never. You are far and away the best interviewer I have ever had. You, you read the book, you pulled passages, you linked it to your own heart and experience. I am so impressed with you, Ms. Yurich.
- [59:21]
A
Thank you. Thank you, Roberta. This has been an. I love the book and I think it's such an incredibly important message and continues to grow. Can you ever imagine back in 2003, then 2026, we're going to be still doing these interviews together and talking about new things about technology. So huge kudos to the both of you for writing such an applicable book that has such staying power and hopefully we'll stay connected.
- [59:46]
B
I hope so.
- [59:47]
C
Let's do that. And I can have talk about language development and what makes that happen. That's our specialty.
- [59:54]
A
Yes. Yeah. Let's do it again sometime.
- [59:56]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to come back because you're so smart.
- [60:00]
A
Oh, you're so sweet. I loved it. And I can't wait till the next time we get to talk.
- [60:04]
C
Great. Thank you so much. Have a great day, Ginny.
- [60:06]
A
You, too.
- [60:07]
B
Thank you. Bye.