← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 727: We Deserve Better Than Netflix | Michaeleen Doucleff, Dopamine Kids
00:59:01
Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:01]
Mikaleen Duclef
Toogood and Co Coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers, real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.
- [00:28]
Ginny Urchin
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urchin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I could not be more thrilled that Mikaleen Duclef is back. And she is back this time because she has a brand new book and it's phenomenal. It's one that you're gonna want to read more than once and that you're gonna flip back to. You know how you have books like that where you're like, wait, where was that in this book? It's so good. It's called Dopamine Kids, A science based plan to rewire your child's brain and take back your family in the age of screens ultra processed foods. This is book number two. The first book Hunt together parent is a staple. I mean, oh, you wrote a staple for parents around the world. Is it nerve wracking to follow up a book like that?
- [01:14]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, very, very much so, actually. And to the point where like, yeah, even to this moment, I, I feel that, but I'm starting to just kind of let go of it and it's like, look, we need to talk about what's in this book and parents need this information. So I just have to let go of like my own ego.
- [01:35]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah, yeah, I think it would be nerve wracking and because here's why, even myself, people pick up the book and they're like, is this going to be as good as the last one? Yeah, it's just human nature, but it is and it is phenomenal. Like I said, you know, I read books twice, basically because I read it once and then I go through to make notes and I was like, I'm so glad I got got the opportunity to read it twice. I like it so much. Okay, so we're gonna talk about just some different topics in the book. I've got notes after notes after notes. It is a critical book to read because even though, like, people are kind of talking about dopamine and you're like, this really makes you understand how shackled we are and how shackled our kids are and the way that you write with the what's next, what's next, what's next? Tap, tap, tap, crunch, crunch, crunch. I was like, oh my gosh. I just, it, you know, that obsessiveness of food and screens.
- [02:33]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [02:34]
Ginny Urchin
So I would love if you would kick it off with the phrase you use is anxious hum. You're talking about your own story. You're like, I'm with my daughter, you know, we're making Belgian waffles, we're at the park. And all I'm thinking about is I need to check my email, I want to check my Twitter. Even if your phone isn't with you, which is what people tell you to do, leave it. It's still like in your mind.
- [02:56]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah, yeah. It really hit me. It was like one day at the beach I think and we, you know, we, we could go to these amazing beaches in San Francisco. Just spectacularly beautiful, you know, like, and it was a crystal blue day and little Rosie was out like making a sandcastle and she was having a great time. And I was just sitting there kind of feeling like gray Jenny, like gloomy because I was just, what's next? On my email, I would pick up my phone and I would do kind of this like whole dance where it was like, check my email, check my text, check, checked social media. And then I put it away and like try to enjoy the ocean. Try to. And, and it, it just started to like dawn on me that I was feeling like this kind of all the time. Like anytime I wasn't at my computer I'd. And it wasn't a good feeling like you said. It was this constant kind of what's next, what's next? Like it wasn't that I was depressed or like clinically anxious. It was just this really like low lying kind of feeling that was like covering my days. And over time I just was like, I don't want to feel like this anymore. You know, I, I wasn't laughing as much, I wasn't, I wasn't enjoying friends as much because I would, the same feeling would come up, right? It would be like we'd be having fun and stuff and then I'd be like, oh my gosh, somebody at work is mad at me, I need to check my phone. And I think I started to realize like, even though I was so drawn to do this, like to, to look at social media, so trapped in social media, it wasn't making me feel good, you know, it was like this weird kind of mix of like why am I keep doing this? Even though, you know, somebody would Say something that would leave me feeling upset or insecure and it would, it would last. Right. It wasn't like I put my phone down and then, oh, now I feel fine. Like, I would carry kind of this residual feeling with me. And so I want. I. And then I started realizing, like, I don't want to give. I don't want Rosie to feel that way. I don't want my kids to feel that way over time, you know, So I was like, I need to fix my problem. And, um, and that was how this started, was like, I need to fix my problem. And I started to study the dopamine system and, like, how these screens and ultra processed foods, like, work in our brains. And I. I discovered something so surprising then. I was like, I have to write this book now. Is that, like, what actually works and what actually frees us from this constant hum isn't like deprivation at all. It's actually more joy, more joy in our lives. And I think that's like, the message of this book is, like, when we limit these things and we kind of take control of them, our lives get brighter and more colorful and more fun. And it's not deprivation, it's reclaiming pleasure.
- [05:30]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah. Well, one of the things you wrote, which I thought was really important to write, was that when you have this sort of vortex of boredom, which people talk about, boredom is actually more nuanced than I ever really realized. Boredom, if you're bored and you can't escape, drains you. So if you're sitting in a class or a lecture, you know, we talk about, oh, boredom is great for kids. Well, there's the one part where if you can't escape, actually it's going to make you feel awful. And then you talk about boredom. If you're not used to it, it's also going to make you feel awful. So can you talk about that part of it? You just kind of brought up like, you need more joy. You can't just be like, well, we're going to be bored. You have to kind of work into it.
- [06:10]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah. I think the thing about boredom is, like, it can inspire you and get you to go do something, but you have to have pathways in your brain, the dopamine system. So the dopamine system is about wanting desire. I want to go do this, I want to go eat this. It gives us motivation. It's not pleasure. It's separate from that. Sometimes we get pleasure when we get what we want, but it is the trigger of, I want to go do something, I want this. And if you're bored. And you don't have any other of those pathways saying, oh, I want to go ride my bike, or, oh, I want to go color or go read a book, like, because I've enjoyed that activity in the past. If you don't have that pathway in your brain, then it's just misery, right? So I would, like, go to the beach and just try to be bored without my phone. And it was awful, Jenny. I would just, like, all I'd want to do is my phone, right? And I think kids feel that way when we take it away. I didn't have anything else in my brain calling me to do something, right? Like, the same thing in our house. Like, in the evenings. I was like, I'll just be. I'll be bored and I'll put my phone away. And then I'm like, what do I do? You know, Because I hadn't experienced baking and not just experiencing it. Experience the joy and the pleasure of it. That's when we create these pathways, these dopamine pathways that make us excited to do something and go do something, right? And so before we just stick kids in a room and say, be bored, figure it out, we've got to introduce them somehow to other options, better options in their lives than staring at a screen. And that's what this book is about. It's, you know, these ideas are based on, like, about 20 years of behavioral psychology and neuroscience, and they've been out there in, like, the business world and the productivity world, but they haven't been in the parenting world, and they're really powerful. So we've kind of been parenting with advice that's like 40, 50 years old. And so this book is really trying to update us. And one of those big tools is, like, you can't just take things away. You've got. You've got to swap in something that's exciting for the kid. You know, it doesn't have to be. You don't have to do a lot of work. Exciting for kids isn't just like, trampoline parks and amusement parks, right? Like, exciting for a kid is like learning to use the oven, you know, or learning to bike down the street by themselves, right? So once we start introducing them to these other activities a little bit slowly, but, you know, step by step, then when they're bored, they're like, oh, you know, in this time and in this place, I go, I go over to my friend's house, I go to the park, or I read a book or an audiobook, you know, and instead of just Having that one thing of, like, I go look at the screen. You end up. Kids end up having like six things that they're doing, you know, and then their life gets really colorful and bright.
- [08:52]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah. And you've got all sorts of ideas in the book. It's phenomenal. You talk about your own personal ideas, other ideas as well, on what to sort of fill those voids with.
- [09:01]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [09:01]
Ginny Urchin
And I really made me think about my life when I was a kid. Like, it made me think back and consider, did I have this anxious hum towards screens, towards anything and a little bit toward food, because all the ultra processed stuff was already out, like the oatmeal, cream pies and things like that.
- [09:17]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [09:17]
Ginny Urchin
But as far as screens go, it just wasn't. It was like you knew that the show you liked, you know, Home Improvement or whatever, was on on Thursdays and.
- [09:24]
Mikaleen Duclef
Right.
- [09:24]
Ginny Urchin
You know, and only for 14 weeks because that was how long the season was or however long. And it was off for reruns. And you just didn't have that pull. You weren't tethered. And it does make you feel so compassionate and empathetic for kids today, like, if they're feeling this in their childhoods and then also for ourselves. So what you talk about, and you make it so clear, the book is phenomenal, called Dopamine. The intersection of the ultra processed foods and the screens. Like, what is going on? And you're talking about the gamblers. Now, this is something that everyone needs to understand, whether you gamble or don't gamble. Nicholas Carderis talked about how, like, when they make these video games, they're trying to shoot your blood pressure up within a certain amount of seconds, or they go back to the drawing board to make it more addictive. Michael Easter's talked a little bit about going to Las Vegas. I think he's in Las Vegas and he's like, there are simulation, like, gambling places. Like a fake gambling place where they're, like, testing everything.
- [10:22]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [10:23]
Ginny Urchin
Oh, my goodness. So what you talk about in this book is that people are peeing. They're peeing in their gambling chairs because they're so attached to it. And then making the connection that this. These whatever it is that makes someone sit in a gambling chair for hours after hours, 24 hours in a row, 36 hours in a row. What makes someone sit there? They're taking those strategies and putting them in front of our children.
- [10:51]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes. And this was something that the gambling industry did in the 90s. So this is not like. This is pre. AI right. Like. Like I tell people like, you don't need AI to somebody. Yeah. To basically sit there and gamble to the point where you don't pick up your kids, you don't go to work, you get UTIs, you know, I mean, it, it. That chapter is really like, I think it was a wake up call. When I like studied that, I was like, you know, this is, these are, and these are adults, right? These are adults that are doing this, right? Into. And then in the 2000s and 2010s, like the tech industry started putting these same tools into basically everything, like educational apps, social media, of course, and video games. You know, all these little tricks to basically crank up your wanting, right? Like this. Like I, I've been thinking about the dopamine system as like the do it again button in your brain. Do it again, do it again, do it again, right? Because that is the pull, right? And over time, what happens is these gamblers, if you talk to them that are addicted to gambling, they don't enjoy it, they hate it, but they are so pulled to it. And so what happens is when we want something like this over and over and over again, what can happen is the wanting goes up and up and up, but the pleasure we get from it can actually decline or go away. We actually skip past the pleasure part and we just are chasing the wanting. And this is the trap, right? Is when you're chasing something that's not giving you pleasure, it's not lighting up the pleasure part of your brain and it's, it's. But it's taking up so much of your time, right? If you're spending six hours a day on something that's really not giving you pleasure, then your life starts to feel gray and gloomy. And I think some kids are, especially teenagers are feeling this, right? They want out of this loop. There's even a name for it. It's called like dark flow, where you're like stuck in this kind of loop thing. Flow from the great Russian psychologist that, I will not say his name right, but his flow is like you're sewing, you're playing the piano, you're creat art. And at the end you feel satisfied and just joyful and just, you know, it's a wonderful experience, right? The dark flow state is similar in that you're kind of, you keep going, you keep going, but at the end you feel drained, right? You, you feel tired, exhausted, you feel like, like, why did I just spend all that time? And I, I think social media for sure and video games are really creating this dark Flow and, And, you know, and. And what it means for me as a parent, why I wanted to write this is like. Because once I understood this, it was like, okay, setting, you know, creating space in Rosie's life for other things and other foods, because food can do it, too. We can get in a dark flow state when we're eating right, where we're just like, you're not even thinking about the food that's going in your mouth. You're just kind of putting it in your mouth. Creating spaces in Rosie's life and saying, you know what? We're not going to have screens after dinner. You know what that's. We're not going to. We're going to do. I'm going to give you some better options. I'm going to give you some more fun options. But creating that space isn't taking away pleasure in her life, because these things are going to draw her and rob her pleasure, especially over time. And so, especially when they're little, it's like, set up the system so you just do it once and you're not constantly managing it. That's really what I'm. What I'm trying to do in Domain Kids is give you a system so you're not managing it manually from moment to moment, day by day, which is exhausting. And then, you know, as they get older, you know, it just doesn't work right.
- [14:23]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. And you just don't want them to live. Like how you explained, you say, this constant need for something painted a dull gray feeling across my mood and life. Not so much a depression, but more of a varnish of discontentment. I love how you read. I rarely had the wonderful feeling of, ah, I have what I need and now I can rest. I rarely felt a sense of satisfaction, of life is just good how it is. And when that feeling did arrive, it fluttered away in seconds. You felt like you couldn't enjoy your downtime. So then you're like, well, how much more are kids? So can you explain in more detail this overdrive of wanting? Because I think this is the part that I did not have a clear understanding of as it relates to dopamine. Because you really do feel like, even though it has never worked, you really do feel like, if I pick up my phone and scroll through Instagram, this is going to feel good for me. I'm going to see something funny. You know, someone's gonna like my whatever. I'm gonna scroll through Twitter. I'm gonna check. You really do think. And so what you talk about is that we are actually working really hard for extremely little. What we're being trained and conditioned to do is to want. Wanting.
- [15:38]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, that is, that is like the crux of it. When neuroscientist said to me, it's no longer about the rabbit, but chasing the rabbit. Like, we fall in love with the possibility of seeing something on Instagram that makes us feel good, right? So if there have things, things on Instagram that make us feel good, that's. That's how they get us at the beginning, right? My email is like this for me, right? It's like a slot machine. Every morning when I press the button, it's like, is it gonna be like a really good message from Jenny and it made my day, or is it gonna be somebody who's really angry at me? It's like, I don't know, you know, find out. And humans have a natural pull towards resolving uncertainty like that. Like they're in laboratory experiments, they'll actually, like, pay money for information that doesn't really help them. And they. But. But it kind of resolves some uncertainty or helps them resolve uncertainty. And that is this just. This is an innate drive. If we think we can get some information that's slightly useful even, or we can just. With social media, I think one of the scientists said, put it right, it's like, it's like, what emotion are you going to feel right when you, when you scroll through? You don't know. Scroll and find out. And he thinks that that's actually what keeps most people on social media. Is this like, constant kind of, what, what am I going to feel next? What am I going to feel next? What am I going to feel next? And he's analyzed it and he's actually found that, like, feeds actually see a very up and down of like, okay, this video makes you laugh, this video makes you mad, this video makes you frustrated, this video makes you happy. And what he's found is it's like a whole mix so that you're constantly, like, going up and down in emotions. But he's also found that more often people end up with negative emotions. Like, you feel rage, you feel insecure, you feel worried. Yes, all these things. Because that actually holds people on the app more than feeling happy and confident and satisfied. Right. And so I think what you end up doing is, yes, there is a chance that something good is going to be on there. But if you keep scrolling, just like, if you keep playing the slot machine, you're going to lose all your money. I mean, absolutely. There's no doubt they tell you that if you keep scrolling, eventually you're going to end up feeling really upset and something's a negative emotion. And, and I experienced that like when I was getting off social media, I, I would be like, okay, I'm going to stay on it until I feel bad. And like there were times when I was like 10 seconds, you know, I was like, literally like, well now. And the thing too is like, like I said, it doesn't. For me, my little brain is very like, I'm very vulnerable to this. Like in different. People are vulnerable in different amounts, right? And your childhood affects it too. But I am super vulnerable and I would, I would feel something would make me feel bad and then I, it would leave me feeling bad for hours, you know, and it's like 10 seconds on social media for the hours of discontent. And, and I, there's so much data on this with kids even from Meta, where like, you know, they start off on social media looking for healthy recipes or looking for how to exercise healthy, and they quickly get into these rabbit holes of really edgy, really negative, really harmful content, right? Because that, our dopamine system at the end of the day is there to keep us alive. It's at the bottom of the brain. Like all animals have it and it's really survival. It's food, water, sex, eventually, but also for humans, like information that helps you survive, like that is, that pulls. Information that helps you survive, pulls people like nothing else. I mean, that is the whole news industry, right? But what you, what I didn't understand was we can be pulled to information that makes us feel really bad, right? Like all that, like eating disorder content or suicide content that's on social media, like that pulls on kids, like, oh my gosh, this is important, this is survival. But that leaves them feeling awful afterwards. One of the key ideas in this book is we can be pulled to things that do not make us feel good and even over time make us feel horrible. And then we can do what you're talking about where we skip right past the pleasure and the reward of this system and we go just straight to wanting. The wanting. That's when we get caught up in this loop where for me the, the biggest skill, Jenny, is to really try to understand the difference in wanting and pleasure and the feeling of it. And once you, and once you can start doing that, and I try to, and I'm trying to teach rosie that. She's 10 now, right? And I'm trying to teach her, like, is this just wanting, wanting, wanting. Are you feeling really Good, you know, is this leaving you feeling good? And once I could differentiate those two things, oh, man, my life just got so much better. Oh, yeah.
- [20:32]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
These days I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's exactly why I love Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100 European linen, 100 silk and organic cotton poplin. Their lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for the changing seasons. And I'm loving the seasonal colors and prints for spring. These are versatile, well made pieces that make getting dressed simple and I appreciate how they do business. Quint works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. The difference is in the details. The linen is breathable but substantial. The cotton poplin is crisp and holds its shape. Everything is built to hold up season after season, including the stitching, the fit and the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. That quince cotton cashmere sweater has become my go to. It's light enough for layering, but still feels luxe. And it didn't cost what I thought quality cashmere would. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want. You don't need a closet full of options. You need pieces that work. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too.
- [21:44]
Ginny Urchin
Don't keep settling.
- [21:45]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
For clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinns.com outside this is such a fun announcement to make. Womb Bikes is officially the 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside. And if you've been around here long enough, you know that's not a casual partnership. We care deeply about the tools that help families reclaim childhood. And Womb is doing exactly that. Womb was founded by two dads in a Vienna garage who simply couldn't find a bike that actually fit their kids, so they built one. And what makes room different is that they don't start with engineering. They start with empathy. Every part of the bike, from the lightweight frame to the brakes, sized perfectly for small hands, is designed to help kids feel capable and confident in a screen dominated world. Bikes are more than bikes. They are freedom. They are connection. They're miles of memories before the street lights come on. So this spring we're launching something brand new, the 100 Hour Ride Challenge. We'll release a brand new tracker chart just for logging 100 hours outside on bikes and for app members. Stay tuned. Integration inside the 1000 hours outside app is coming if you've got little learners. The Womb Go bikes are incredible. Available in six bright colors, including the sweetest new powder pink that just feels like spring. If you are working toward your 1000 hours outside this year, a great bike makes it a whole lot easier. Womb designs lightweight bikes built just for kids so they can ride farther and ride happier. Go to woom.com and use code outside 10 at checkout for 10% off your bike purchase, excluding the womb.
- [23:17]
Ginny Urchin
Wow.
- [23:18]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
That's outside 10 for 10 off at w o o m.com Every season I find myself wanting our home to breathe a little easier. Not a full renovation, just thoughtful updates that make the space work better for our real everyday life. That's why I love shopping at Wayfair. Our style leans warm and collected, a little modern, a little lived in. This spring we refreshed a few spaces. Lighter bedding, a couple accent pieces in the living room, and some outdoor furniture to make our patio feel like an actual gathering space instead of just yard furniture. Wayfair made it so easy to narrow things down by style, size, price, and I always read the reviews. Thousands of 5 star reviews make it feel less like guessing and more like choosing confidently. I also love how many functional pieces they carry, storage solutions, shelving for work from home spaces, even options for assembly. If you don't want to DIY it, it feels seamless. From browsing to delivery, the pieces we ordered fit right into our rhythm. Beautiful but practical. And that's what I'm always after. Find furniture, decor, and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [24:26]
Ginny Urchin
I think you know, there's this whole point of with hunt, gather, parent. This is about how you travel the world and see now other people parent and you've been exposed to these ancient parenting practices that other people would have no idea exist. So one of the practices is that in some cultures they never yell at children. You maybe are shocked. You know, if you live in the United States and you know, you see that people are kind of always annoyed with their kids, are often annoyed with their kids. And you're like, these. Some people don't even get mad at all, you know, and they're. They're viewed as toddlers themselves if they're yelling at kids and people really pressure them not to react that way. And the key here is that the ancient parenting practices were not up against.
- [25:09]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right.
- [25:10]
Ginny Urchin
Machines that you would be stuck in so that you literally pee in them and they have to hose them off every night. And so the advice and the explanation in here is going to help you change your life. It's so practical and it's so vivid, and the imagery, it just. You get it. So, like, there was one example, just a small example in the book. It's dopamine kids, where you're like, okay, let's say you're running a marathon or some race. And I. I mean, I would equate it to like, oh, you know, I don't. I don't drink, you know, Gatorade. Or I, you know, I only have water. And you're so thirsty because you, you know, you ran out or whatever.
- [25:46]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes.
- [25:47]
Ginny Urchin
And you get to the finish line and someone's gonna hand you a glass of lemonade.
- [25:50]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes.
- [25:50]
Ginny Urchin
Whether you drink lemonade or not, you're gonna drink it.
- [25:53]
Mikaleen Duclef
You're gonna drink it. Yes.
- [25:54]
Ginny Urchin
Yes. You're not even gonna consider. When you're trying to quench your thirsty route, you act impulsively.
- [26:00]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right.
- [26:00]
Ginny Urchin
And that's what's kind of happening here, is this imp.
- [26:03]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right.
- [26:03]
Ginny Urchin
Impulsivity. So one of the practical strategies. And there' strategies in the book and practical strategies that you may not have thought of, which is like, okay, everyone talks about boredom, so we're just, you know, we're just going to leave the evening open. And then you read your book and you're like, if we switch suddenly to a void of nothingness, it creates a horrible discomfort in our brains. So, you know, you're. You're given, like, the next step. Because I think maybe someone would try and be like, well, that didn't work.
- [26:33]
Mikaleen Duclef
Right, Right. Right.
- [26:34]
Ginny Urchin
So here's an. Another example of a practical step in this book. In dopamine, kids slow it down.
- [26:41]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, yes. The speed is so. And this comes straight from the gambling machines. The faster they. They made the machines, the more addictive they are, the stickier they are. If we can slow anything down, it gives you that opportunity in your brain to stop that impulsiveness. Right. Until, like, say, whoa, whoa, wait. Is this Is this really making me feel good? That's the question. Is this really making me feel good or am I just doing. I want. I just feel this, like, pull. I talked to somebody, a mom yesterday, and she told me that, like, her 10 year old told her that one time that, like, I feel like I'm just watching this because I just have. I need, I want to, but I. It's not making me feel very good. And I was like, wow. Like, so I think our kids can get it too, Jenny, you know, but absolutely slow it down. You know, one of the things that we did and we have done since I think it's been like two years now, is we canceled all of our subscriptions. Serve, like video streaming. And I was like, I thought we'd spend tons of money. I was like, you know, because that slows it down, right? You got to press the button to buy it, right? Instead of just like endless, endless options. But it just. What ended up happening was we just watched so much less. Because when you're sitting there and you're like, do I want to spend 9.99 on this movie? You know, or like even 3.99, you know, you're like, maybe I'll go outside for a bit and then we'll come back, you know, and like, yeah, absolutely. Like, put something like a little wrench in that cycle. You know, people are good for that. Like, other people, not virtual people. Virtual people just make us want to be on the apps more. But people in real life slow us down, you know, because they kind of. They make us look around and say, like, whoa, whoa, what am I doing? Why have I been on this for three hours? You know, and so anytime you can add people back into things, that's going to slow it down, you know, with food, just making it, you know, putting right. That was a huge thing with my. My daughter as I really has a really strong food drive. So I think kids are pulled to food or they're pulled to games or social media. Like, you know, it's both. All or both. Exactly. And so, you know, I. One day I was just like, you know what? So in the grocery store, she sees the cookies and that's. Dopamine is triggered by the sight of that. Are these dopamine things happen early?
- [28:58]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah, because it's wanting.
- [28:59]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
Want. I want. I want it.
- [29:00]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right.
- [29:01]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah.
- [29:01]
Mikaleen Duclef
The hit happens before. Right? And so she wants it and she's motivated. Dopamine motivates us. Some scientists say it's willingness to work. Like it makes kids and that's why kids are so dogged about screens and foods, because they're flowing with this neurotransmitter that's telling them work, work, work. And so she was like, I want these cookies. I want these cookies. And I was like, I'm going to take all of this motivation, all of this, this desire to work and get her to do something that's fun and interesting and it will really help her. And I was like, okay, you know what, let's go make, you go make the cookies. You know, let's go into the baking aisle, get the ingredients and go home and you can make them all by yourself. I'll, I'll be there. But. And she just lit up and was like. And from that moment, that was it. It was like, we're gonna, we're gonna, instead of buying these, these cookies, we're gonna make them. And. And then I'm giving her so much more pleasure because it's not just about eating the cookie. It's about learning to use the oven. It's about learning to do something on your own. Create something that my husband, her dad, is gonna love. Right. Being purposeful, contributing. Right. These are all super pleasurable for children and they're in fundamental to their lives. Right. And so we've taken this thing that triggers all this dopamine and wanting and we've diverted it.
- [30:19]
Ginny Urchin
Right.
- [30:19]
Mikaleen Duclef
And I call it like, ride the motivational wave. We're riding her motivation into a hobby that actually makes her feel good, helps her develop and leaves our family, like more peaceful. Right. Because we're not arguing about how many cookies she's eating. Yeah. That, that I think is something to keep in mind that when a kid really, really wants a screen or food, like, can you divert them into something that's related to it but will make them feel good afterwards and not just leave them in this cycle of wanting.
- [30:53]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah. And once you read the book, then you see it everywhere. You see it in the grocery store of why they put all those candies right at little kids eye level. You know, it's like down at the floor. You know, they've got those kinder joys or whatever because you got a three year old that's walking by and it cues them, there's that trigger. They want it, they want it. So then they're gonna bug, bug, nag, nag, nag. And you said, I have never had to set a timer and pressure and persuade Rosie to stop baking. I've never had to hide the mixer or hide the baking soda. Like how we have to do with our screen sometimes. And then you said she wouldn't overeat them. I mean, what a different situation. As opposed to the veggie straws, which, that's one of the things you talk about, you know, like the calorie density. I didn't know that.
- [31:39]
Mikaleen Duclef
I know. This is so surprising to me because as a mom and a biochemist, I was always like, okay, sugar, we're going to try to avoid sugar. Like, you know, and. But I had no clue that it actually is about calorie density. And what that really means is these super starch packed snacks, like crackers. I had no clue that crackers were actually really addictive for children. And I have this study that just came out that's looking at what is the recipe for the most addictive ultra processed foods. And it's this really, it's called a starch slurry. That's what the com. Like the food companies call it. It's just this like super high dense, refined carbohydrate. So we're talking about veggie straws, that's potato starch, crackers, pretzels, anything that has refined, really refined flour in it. And then what they do is they kind of coat it with a little bit of fat, just a little bit, because that, that like sparks more wanting. And then they put a lot of salt and flavorings in it. And it is literally, if you look at the food industry, they, they admit to this, it, it is a recipe to maximize wanting, but it does not give you satisfaction, right? And that, that with the baking, the cookings, that's why she stops eating them is because the process of baking, it's slowing everything down is so satisfying, right? You're creating something. These are fundamental needs of humans, right? And, and so you feel, you feel the pleasure of the cookie, but you also feel the satisfaction, right? You get gratification, right? But these veggie straws, pirate's booty, like even the pea snaps, right? These things are designed to just make us want and want and want. There's, there's no satisfaction in them. And they're also designed to basically be the thing that the child eats, no matter what else is available. I think this is what I didn't understand either. Like, if I kept putting like all these wonderful whole foods out and like at dinner I'd make all these wonderful whole foods and then we'd have like, you know, chips or crackers or corn chips or whatever, and that's all she'd eat. And that is just her Brain, the way her brain evolves.
- [33:48]
Ginny Urchin
Didn't you say your husband too?
- [33:50]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, absolutely. Like, absolutely. And I mean me too. Like, I'm not, I'm not above this at all. But I would try it over and over again. And because we evolved our dopamine system survival, it evolved to find the highest number of calories in the smallest amount of food and also the fastest. And so these ultra processed foods, all of this, again, speed coming into play, all of these things digest, like instantly. They just melt in your mouth and they just go into your blood. And so it's basically like refined sugar. It acts in our body like refined sugar. It sends, sends a signal up to the dopamine system and it tells the brain, whoa, this is super high calories density, packed with calories super fast. So remember this food. Value this food and eat it whenever you see it. Like, that's basically what happens. If you watch your kids, a lot of kids will eat this way. They will eat the highest calorie dense food around them and really ignore everything else. And I didn't realize this, this is from like the research in the last, like 15 years from these amazing neuroscientists. And you know, what's happened to ultra processed food in the past, like 30 years? The calorie density has shot way higher than anything we see in nature. So it just, it cannot compete with the strawberries and the beans and, you know, which contain all the things that do give you satisfaction and do give you pleasure. I think it's a myth that just sitting there, putting cracker after cracker into our mouths is pleasurable. The data shows that it's not. Pleasure comes from when we're hungry and we eat whole, good, whole foods, and that it can be just as pleasurable as, like the first bite of a Sunday.
- [35:34]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah. Yes. So, I mean, I didn't know any of this, Michael. I didn't either read it because you gave the veggie straws example in the book. And like, to me, veggie straws seem like air. Yeah, it like literally seems like you're kind of eating nothing. Then you said, you know, like. And you see, like, you go through the bag so quickly, like the zesty ranch ones or the cheddar cheese ones. So you wrote that the calorie density. I've never heard this ever. And I've talked to like a bunch of different, you know, like, you talked about the sugar things all, you know, but I'm like, I didn't know this. The calorie density in veggie Straws, which feel like air to me is 4.6 kilo kilocalories per gram. Then you're like, your body remembers this when you're at the store because your body is like wanting you to get the most bang for your buck. Get the most.
- [36:20]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right.
- [36:20]
Ginny Urchin
Calorie density out of the money you spend.
- [36:22]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
Okay.
- [36:23]
Ginny Urchin
The calorie density is 4.6 kilocalories per gram for a veggie straw. It is 14 times higher than strawberries. 14 times higher.
- [36:33]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [36:34]
Ginny Urchin
Like, oh my goodness. You just see the pull, the pull. And then once that gets triggered, the want, the want, the want. And I think it's important to talk about how. I love how you connected the two things. And then you said, you know, the ancient wisdom has not helped with two areas of modern life, screens and ultra processed foods. We cannot control these technologies with normal tactics used for gener. You brought up. And I thought, oh my goodness, that we are at a critical junction with this book, Dopamine. Kids, you have to read it because you explained how AI is going to exacerbate it.
- [37:08]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, yes, yes. And actually since the book was finished, there's been like another kind of layer of that which of course is going to happen. Right. Like, I mean, right now, when I finished the book and currently, like AI is used to select things for children. Right. When. When you're on a platform for adults too, for everybody. Right. It's optimizing the recommendations. Right. Like, oh, this. I think this video will hold you there. It will give you. I like this. One of the neuroscientists said, it will give you almost what you want. Very close to what you want, but not exactly what you want because if it gave you what you wanted, you would leave. Right?
- [37:43]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. Like you even said, you exit. You explained earlier, like, okay, you might. You're going to get a funny video. Then you're going to get a video that's like, you know, about and whatever you're interested in. Then it starts, you know, like, I'm interested in, you know, expanding my palette as an adult. So then all of a sudden, you know, it just showing you, you know, this and then that and you know, so I like, it's like that Russian roulette of emotions.
- [38:06]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, that's right.
- [38:07]
Ginny Urchin
It knows all of your vulnerabilities.
- [38:09]
Mikaleen Duclef
Oh, yes.
- [38:10]
Ginny Urchin
So it's like, oh, I'm gonna grab a video from this person who's funny and grab a video from that person who's, you know, who's dark. And so that's where it is now
- [38:19]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
March is when homeschool families start looking ahead. You can almost see the finish line. Spring goals, end of year milestones, maybe even testing around the corner. And this is such an important time to reinforce key skills and build confidence before wrapping up the year. If you are thinking about assessments, whether required by your state or simply the benchmarks you set for your family, it's helpful to have a tool that makes review simple and clear. That's where IXL can really shine. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out this time of year is a real time feedback and progress tracking. Kids get instant explanations when they miss something and parents can see exactly where growth is happening and where a little reinforcement might help. It takes the guesswork out of finishing strong. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
- [39:30]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's where it is now. And what is happening already really is it's now then going to create the content for you, right? So it's like one of my friends said, so it's kind of like shopping at TJ Maxx is, you know, where somebody comes in and picks out a couple outfits for you versus like going to a personal tailor, right? Where it's going to like, yeah, cut the clothes for you. But Jenny, what's come about in the last like couple months in my newsletters that I get in this world is this attachment economy, right? Where it's called attachment economy, where basically AI is going to be able to form like emotional attachments with our children. And so the pull is going to be not just like what emotion am I feeling the pool is going to be? I'm attached to this device like literally emotionally, right? And I think this is like, I mean they're going to make money off of having chatbots make our children feel like they love them. I mean that is, that is what like so this is going to be, I mean it already kind of does this.
- [40:31]
Ginny Urchin
It's already happening, right?
- [40:32]
Mikaleen Duclef
And but this is going to be so much harder for parents to regulate kind of manually, right? Day to day in the sense that like, oh, you have your phone, but you kind of use it now and you kind of don't use it now. Right. You really, this AI is going to make it so parents absolutely need this like, system wide approach to this. Right. And I think I was really careful with this book. Like these, the advice in here will work no matter how addictive the tools are. In fact, you need the advice in here more as these tools become more addictive. And you know, the word addiction is interesting. Like, like the psychology world and the psychiatry world has been kind of like, oh, we don't want to use it with, with, with screens and ultra processed foods. But you know, while writing this book, it has become more common and I think because we're just seeing kids struggling so much with it, but it absolutely, like compulsive, obsessive use. Right?
- [41:26]
Ginny Urchin
Absolutely. You're tethered to it. And you, and you, the way that you wrote the book where you use it, like, tap, tap, tap. What's next? What's next? You know, what am I going to eat? Crunch, crunch, crunch. You're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, swipe, swipe, swipe. Like, that is how addiction feels, right? You're just compelled. Compelled, compelled.
- [41:43]
Mikaleen Duclef
Right.
- [41:43]
Ginny Urchin
I loved how you wrote it. So let's talk about, we've talked about some of the base layers here, some of the foundational aspects. But then you say, look, you know what, someone who smokes, which, that's very addictive. They don't smoke on a flight.
- [41:56]
Mikaleen Duclef
Right, Exactly.
- [41:57]
Ginny Urchin
They somehow managed to get four hours from Michigan to la and they haven't smoked a cigarette. So you lay the foundation here. And every parent has to understand what's going on. You, you have to understand. And you do such a phenomenal job talking about the dismount.
- [42:12]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, the dismount.
- [42:13]
Ginny Urchin
Like, you know, I, I can't get my kid off their screen. And you're like, it's because they love it.
- [42:19]
Mikaleen Duclef
Right.
- [42:19]
Ginny Urchin
You know, they love Lego Friends, they love Ninjago, they love Bluey. And then you realize, no, no, you know, they, they actually don't, they don't love it at all. They just love the wanting of it.
- [42:31]
Mikaleen Duclef
That's right. And they're stuck, they're stuck in those loops. Yes, right. Of like, what's next? What's next? What's next? Exactly. And I, to me, that was just such a, it was like I just had all my power back as a parent because I don't want to take something away that my child loves. Right. Like, that's like A horrible feeling, right? But. But seeing like, wait a second, two hours on Netflix leaves her like crazy afterwards. She's crying, she's screaming, she's like, this isn't love. This is a dysfunctional relationship, right? And like, so then, like, taking that away from her was like, I'm gonna. Protecting her from these. These negative emotions and this, this awful loop that she's in, right? And it was just so freeing for me. And I want every parent to feel that way, like. Cause I think a lot of us feel that in our gut, right? Like, we feel like this is not right. Like something's not right here, right? And I was even like, felt like guilty about limiting her and like, no more Jenny. I'm like, like. Because I've seen the effect too. Like, once we started really, like, creating these sanctuaries that I called these places in time where, like, there's no screens and like, there's no ultra processed food, our life just got so much better and easier. Like, so much easier and calmer. And I've heard from other parents it's the same way. It's just. And so it's like, take away the guilt about, like, you know, and this idea that, like, you need to, like, I often hear this idea of like, you need to get. Teach them willpower, right? You have to expose them to these things. This idea, first of all, has no evidence, very little evidence, especially over the long term. But also, I talked to a psychologist just last week, and he was like, in our world today, you don't need to do that. There's so many temptations out there. Food screens, apps at school, at, you know, after soccer practice, we get a whole bag of sweets and, you know, like, you don't need to bring more into your home. The kids are already gonna, like, get, practice or learn, you know, like outside, right? Like, that's different than our lives too, right? Like, for us, it was different. We didn't have it like. Like we have ultra processed. Like Rosie has ultra processed food every day in her life. Even though we don't really have much in our homes, in our home like every day, right? Like, I'm not keeping her from it, right? You know, like, she's not being like. So I think we can throw that idea out that we need to like, somehow get them used to it or, like, just throw that idea. Like, no, we need to create these little sanctuaries in their lives, just like a wildlife sanctuary that protects like an endangered species, you know, it protects like an endangered skill or activity or food, you know, Conversation, focus, sleep, adventure. These are the four. I have to tell you, when you create a sanctuary for sleep, life just gets so much better because everybody actually sleeps and they're not chronically tired. You know, like, that is the biggest one. It's been about two years now and like, I, I just, we could never go back. I could never go back to scrolling at night. It just, it, it messes up our sleep so much and then there's just all these ripple effects. Right?
- [45:37]
Ginny Urchin
Yeah. Your life is, is awful. I mean, you know, on a grand scale, I'm sure there's good moments here and there, but like, overall, you're flustered and you're frazzled and you're exhausted, you know, and you're cranky and who wants, wants to be that way. And also, I think you give such a, a great charge to make sure that your kids know that there's a different way to live life. You know, you even talk about how. So the book includes seven fund fundamental needs that American children often miss out on. So the book is so comprehensive. It's so interesting. You know, you're such a fantastic writer.
- [46:09]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
Obviously, everybody, you're too nice.
- [46:11]
Ginny Urchin
Hunt, Gather, parent. I'm like, this book, you know, is jaw dropping and so is the new one, Dopamine Kids. So you're talking about the seven fundamental needs that are basically being hijacked.
- [46:22]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, that's right.
- [46:23]
Ginny Urchin
So maybe we can talk about one or two, depending on how much time we have.
- [46:26]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes.
- [46:26]
Ginny Urchin
But I, I loved that. Well, there's maybe hopefully we can get to two. One of them is that they need to create.
- [46:32]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes.
- [46:33]
Ginny Urchin
So this is going back to the baking.
- [46:35]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [46:35]
Ginny Urchin
Like this is a fundamental need.
- [46:36]
Mikaleen Duclef
Absolutely.
- [46:37]
Ginny Urchin
But one of the things that you talk about is the bower bird versus the beaver and how kids like to create in different ways. And you're like, yes. I was in my 40s before I realized that there are things out in the world really like to do, but I didn't even know.
- [46:49]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, yes. So I, I, I looking at kids all around the world, like, not just here, but like, I, I started to realize, like, there's really kind of two types. And of course it's a spectrum. Right. People. My, my husband is both like. But you know, you either kind of want to create things that are really small and tiny, you know, like art and my, my Rosie loves paper quilling. Like just be like a nightmare for me, like, but she'll do it for hours. You know, this dopamine system just lights up with creation because we need it to Create things to survive, right? And you're right, like Roblox, Minecraft, these sandbox games are hijacking the system, right?
- [47:28]
Ginny Urchin
They're exploiting our kids.
- [47:29]
Mikaleen Duclef
Exactly. So there's kids like that, they want to sit down, they want to be still, they want to use kind of small muscles. I call them bowerbird kids because bowerbirds are these amazing birds that create little structures out of like ribbon and trash and leaves and. And flowers for their mates. So they create art for their mates. So bowerbird kids are like the easy ones on the airplane, right? You just give them a pen and paper and they like. But the other kids are the beavers. And I was totally a beaver. And these kids want to be like big muscles, right? Like swinging. I've started splitting wood, Jenny. Like, I like.
- [48:05]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
Wow.
- [48:06]
Ginny Urchin
I made it feel so good.
- [48:08]
Mikaleen Duclef
Oh, it is like the best exercise number one, you do it like five times and you're like exhausted. But it's so empowering. So like I garden. We're talking about construction saws, like these big things, you know, building with boxes, old Amazon boxes. Totally a beaver project. And if you try to get a beaver kid to sit there and do paper quilling, they're going to hate you. You know what I mean? Like, this is going to be so kind of figure out where your kid sits and then start to introduce activities or give them ideas that fit those categories. And these are great replacement activities for these, like sandbox games. Right? But they're also just great for, you know, you can take some of them into. For the bowerbirds, into the car, on the trains, right? Like you can start integrating them all across. All across your life. So, yes, creation is a fundamental need. And it just makes us feel so good to see something that we've. To hold something in our hand that we've made. It just gives kids something that like a screen can. Can nev. Can never do. It gives you that satisfaction. It gives you what I call, like the genuine reward in life. I mean, gardening. Like, it took me four years to figure out how to grow cauliflower. And that first cauliflower plant was just like, oh my gosh, like we, we did this, right? And like, and then I just feel, ah, like there's no what's next? What's next? It's like, no, we're gonna go eat this cauliflower and we're gonna really enjoy it. And I want. I think every kid needs to feel that satisfaction of like, look what I made. I made this. This swing, this tree swing. I made this, you know, paper quill card. Like, you know, and, and, and every, every kid, every kid needs that. You know, every adult needs that too.
- [49:54]
Ginny Urchin
What an ultimate slowing down process, right? Which is growing your own cauliflower or your own watermelon, whatever it is. I mean this actually reminded me of even in. This has been going on for a long time. Like even in the 90s. It was like the Sims and it was right. Like a fake, you know, another fake world, right? And you want to get in there and build and you have your family. I can't quite remember, but I remember being really drawn to that game. But you say it will never completely fulfill their needs because kids yearn to create with their hands. Kids and adults, I do not know what's going on with my voice. Kids yearn to create with their hands, not just their minds. Children need to hold a tangible result for their time and effort in their hands and they have to show others. That's another just, I mean, yes, practical thing where when your kid comes in ours, like they, you know, our youngest one, she's similar age to Rosie, she likes to write books. You know, she'll, she'll come and I wrote a book and will you read it, mommy? And maybe I can sell it and you know, yes, that part was just like so good for me to read that.
- [50:58]
Mikaleen Duclef
You know, this is a huge, huge take home message I think is that anytime a kid does something offline, you know, any. Anytime a kid does something that an activity that you want to support and boost, right. You want it to be a habit, right? Creating books like, right, that you want that to be, you need to give them like an emotional payoff. This comes from behavioral psychology for the last 20 years. I mean this is how social media works. You, you want to make them feel successful and like you care about it and you want them to feel really good about it. And the best way to do that with kids is to have them present to you their work, have them show it, have them read it. Like some sort of like, I mean this is the hitting the button on, you know, the post button on social media. I'm telling the world, right? You gotta do that with these activities that are offline too. So like anytime Rosie makes a quote card or what was she doing recently? Oh, she was just making some sort of like scene out of, out of something. And she was like, mommy, can I show you like how the scene works? I'm like, yes, please show me. Because this is when you're hitting pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. In their brain, not just want, want, want, but like, feel good, right. And that feel good. Chemicals are going to tell their brain, do this again. You know, they're going to wire up that pathway of wanting to. Oh, you know, in the afternoon, I build with these, with these little blocks. I build with these stones. I go outside and I do this, right? Like, this is the do. This is making them. This is making it not just some activity that they've been doing for a bit. This is making it a habit. This is how you make it a habit, is have them present it, have them explain it, you know, hang it on the wall. You know, sometimes to really get Rosie's motivation out, I'll be like, can you make a version of this? And, and we'll give it to a neighbor. You know, we'll go across the street and we'll create this for the neighbor. We'll give it away. Or like you said, like selling it like that. Like, like, so good for kids, right? To create something and then sell it at the farmer's market or in their neighborhood or. Because you're making them feel successful, right. You're making them feel valued. And, and that's what, that's where the pleasure comes from too. Right. And where. Then you're. They're going to want to do it again and again and again. And then when they're bored, Jenny, they'll be like, wait a second. I feel good after I, you know, write a book. Yeah.
- [53:23]
Ginny Urchin
And someone likes it.
- [53:25]
Mikaleen Duclef
My mom cares. Yeah.
- [53:27]
Ginny Urchin
That is so interesting that you brought up with the social media. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna post my quilt or my thing, I sewed my thing, I drew or, you know, whatever. And it's like the. I would imagine that with the video games, they became so much more addictive when there was that multiplayer component online, you know, Minecraft and Roblox. We were at a piano competition this past weekend, and in my line of sight, there was a thousand people in the room. And in my line of sight to where they were doing the trophies, there was a kid who never put the phone down. And it was what you could tell what kind of a game it was. You know, it was like, you know, one of those endless world type games.
- [54:01]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yeah.
- [54:02]
Ginny Urchin
And then further on, there was a man who never lifted his head up, not one time. And I was like, it just shows the pull of it. And so you can see that the fundamental needs are being hijacked. And so you talked about Kelly Lambert. I love Kelly Lambert. She talks about the effort driven Rewards. I go where, like we have to use our hands in meaningful ways to create. You wrote you need hobbies. This is for adults and kids, where you can see the end result and the real reward. And then be the audience, Be the audience. Don't let social media be the audience for your kids. You be the audience. We've got just a couple minutes left. I want to hit one more of the fundamental needs. It's this Eudaimonia.
- [54:40]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, Eudaimonia. Yes. Yes. Thank you for bringing that one. It's so important. Purpose and meaning and mattering. Right. That's a big hot term right now. Mattering. Like kids need to feel like they matter to their families. Like that is, that kept them alive. Right. If they didn't matter, they wouldn't be taken care of. Right. And so this is becoming, I'm so glad because that people are talking about this and it's becoming a really important issue with teenagers, right, that, that some of the mental health problems are because of these screens. But at the root cause is they don't feel like they matter. They don't feel like they have purpose in their life and meaning. And every kid needs that at every age. And you know, this is a lesson that we've learned from the parents all around the world. Right? Because like those Maya parents, they were like, they were awesome at getting kids. Eudaimonia. From the tiniest toddler all the way, all the way up, you know, and there's so many things we can do, so many easy things we can do. You know, just including, including them in our, our, in cooking and cleaning and our day to day life can give kids purpose and meaning, you know? I know, I know you're. I know you're a master on this topic. Oh, you know, making your kids.
- [55:56]
Ginny Urchin
I don't know if I'm a master. I, I think I loved how you wrote that. The. What is the video. What are the video game people doing to hijack it? Yeah. Like they're giving them missions. And you use this, right? The phrase was an endless chain of purpose.
- [56:12]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, yes, this is exactly. And the video game designers emit this. This is not. I didn't make this up. They say this to get the kid to stay on there. You have to like have a new mission. A new mission, A new mission, a new mission. And but by the time they've finished the first mission, they're already on another mission. Right. So it's like embedded with each other and so they're never actually feeling again that satisfaction of like, I, I Completed something. Right. There's never. So it's, it's purposefully so. What, what do video games, what do they say? Like, the missions are like, we're going to save the world. We're gonna like, you know, we're gonna like, free. We're gonna free a free society from all these bad people.
- [56:53]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
Right.
- [56:53]
Mikaleen Duclef
These giant per. Right. And, and it's this clear, grandiose mission and then that's tapping into the kids need to feel purposeful in life. Life need to feel like they're doing something that other people care about. And, but, but are they right?
- [57:09]
Ginny Urchin
They're.
- [57:10]
Mikaleen Duclef
They're not saving the world and they're not in. In fact, I didn't know this, Jenny, but like modern video games actually through AI often titrate how hard it is so the child feels like they're getting better at it and they're making progress. And so it's like they're not even sometimes getting better at the game. Right. And so, so I know a kid that plays a lot of video games and he's always telling me, like, I just, I never feel like I get there, you know, I never get. And that, that, that's not pleasure, right? That's. That's frustration. Right. Like, endless wanting is frustration. That's not instant gratification. That's no gratification. Right. And so I think understanding that, then it's like the parent can come in and be like, no, let's find something that really gives you purpose in life, that really makes you feel like you've contributed and you're a value member of this family, of this society. Every kid needs that. And then on top of it, you're creating a kid who has skills that they need to be independent. Right. And grow. And I always say, like, when you create a kid that has skills that be independent, you're creating a kid that gives you a break. Right?
- [58:25]
Ginny Urchin
That's right.
- [58:26]
Mikaleen Duclef
They will go outside and play and go their friend's house.
- [58:29]
Ginny Urchin
That will make your lasagna for you.
- [58:31]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes, exactly. Exactly. We were at a reporter's house last week. I was doing an interview for this book and we were making lunch with her little toddler and Rosie was there too. And at one point, Rosie was kind of like, well, can I just make it? And the mom was like, yeah, sure. And we just sat down and talked and stuff. And Rosie just created the whole lunch. Oh, that. And I didn't really, like, acknowledge it at the time because I was so wrapped up in the interview. But afterwards I told my husband, like, I don't think we really realized what she did right. But like, she just, you know, I
- [59:07]
Ginny Urchin
mean, they're so capable. I want to read what you wrote.
- [59:10]
Mikaleen Duclef
Capable.
- [59:10]
Ginny Urchin
In American society, we carry a pervasive myth about children. All they want in life is to play or be entertained. But instead of viewing children as wanting only to be entertained by screen or video game, we need to view them as competent members of the family, eager to learn purposeful skills and to contribute in meaningful ways. Even just yesterday I was like, my kids were off doing stuff and I was like, I'm gonna make dinner. And I was like, oh. You know, I'm like, I just, you know, gone through your book again for notes and so I'm like, I, you know, my oldest son, I was like, hey, can you help me? Like no one ever says no. Like you want to be invited into that.
- [59:46]
Mikaleen Duclef
They want to be invited in. They want to be invited in.
- [59:49]
Ginny Urchin
He took a picture of the final meal you, you know, 17 years old
- [59:54]
Mikaleen Duclef
because he was so proud of it.
- [59:57]
Ginny Urchin
There is a real reward.
- [59:59]
Mikaleen Duclef
Yes.
- [60:00]
Ginny Urchin
So the book we have just scratched the surface. Mike Lean, you talk. I mean, we didn't even talk about all the outside parts because I'm like, well, we talk about outside all the time, but a ton in here about getting kids outside. Freedom, adventure, risk, about wrestling, all the touching. You're talking about the food. You know, how to make the food switch happen. You're talking about, about fiber. This is really important. You've got an incredibly long list of hobby ideas and activities to try. So it's a mix of clear explanation. Why are our kids so intensely wanting these things that do not satisfy? Why are we? Yeah, it's in you. You just, you get such a picture of that and then what can we do about it?
- [60:40]
Mikaleen Duclef
And you say so much.
- [60:41]
Ginny Urchin
We have to offer equally alluring activities, which sounds monumental, but it's not.
- [60:48]
Mikaleen Duclef
It's not, not to kids. Not the kids. I mean learning to use a knife is like, like to a six year old is, is, is more alluring than YouTube.
- [60:58]
Ginny Urchin
And you a 16 year old, it
- [61:00]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host
doesn't matter how old they are.
- [61:01]
Ginny Urchin
You know, I, my teenager was in cutting up peppers to put in a pasta dish. And like it was just great. It was great. And he was so proud. And so I, you know, this is talking about taking back the steering wheel of your family. And it's idea after dear idea. A four week transformation idea. At the end of the book, it is just packed full and I'm telling you, you're going to be flipping back through it over and over again. It is called dopamine. Kids. Another home run.
- [61:27]
Mikaleen Duclef
Oh, Jenny, thank you so much. Oh, you're so sweet.
- [61:31]
Ginny Urchin
Thanks for being here. I loved it.
- [61:32]
Mikaleen Duclef
Oh, thank you, thank you. Pleasure is all mine.