1KHO 737: Friendship Is Eroding | Dr. Tracy Brower, Critical Connections

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 737 - Friendship Is Eroding | Dr. Tracy Brower, Critical Connections
Host: Ginny Yurich
Guest: Dr. Tracy Brower
Date: March 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode centers on the erosion of friendship and community in today's world, as explored through Dr. Tracy Brower's new book, Critical Connections. Host Ginny Yurich and Dr. Brower discuss the loneliness epidemic, the importance of real-life connections, generational impacts, and tangible strategies for reclaiming community and relationship in a tech-saturated world—both at work and in personal life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Dr. Tracy Brower’s Background and Motivation

• Dr. Brower is a PhD sociologist focused on happiness, fulfillment, and the future of work.
• She has authored several books, including Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work, The Secrets to Happiness at Work, and the new Critical Connections ([02:00]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 02:15):
  "We have this negative narrative of work being a drain...but it can actually be a source of joy and, more importantly, a sense of purpose...It's that connection piece that is so magical.”
• Dr. Brower does not use AI to write her works, emphasizing the human authenticity behind her books ([03:08]).

2. The State of Friendship and Community

• Loneliness and disconnection are at record highs. Over 50% of people globally report feeling lonely ([05:59]).
• Young people, especially young men, are most affected:
  • 27% of young men say they have no friends ([07:12]).
  • Gen Z shows a 98% burnout rate.
• Older adults with stronger community connections live longer and healthier lives; marriage and friendships correlate with increased happiness ([08:48]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 07:12):
  “Having two or three close friends is correlated with all kinds of health outcomes. More than our habits around diet... even on par with smoking.”

3. Where and How Friendships Form

• Top sources for friendship:
  1. High school
  2. Work
  3. College/university
  4. Activities/extracurriculars ([10:55])
• Making a true friend requires time investment:
  • 40-60 hours for acquaintances to become friends.
  • 140 hours = good friend, 300+ hours = best friend ([19:25]).
• Online relationships can be “empty calories”—not a replacement for in-person connection ([12:45]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 12:45):
  “Sometimes I think our online relationships are like empty calories...When we have a problem, who are we going to call?”

4. Friendship Barriers and the Need for Intentionality

• High school and college don’t work for everyone (commuting, entrepreneurship, remote work can make connection harder) ([14:36]).
• “Belonging” comes from shared identity and frequent proximity—hard to achieve in large or impersonal settings ([14:36]).
• Intentionality is crucial: sometimes you need to “start your own group,” even if it begins with just two or three people ([16:31]).
• Social skills are declining, making it harder for lonely people to cross social thresholds ([17:59]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 16:31):
  “It takes a lot of intention and attention to create those connections.”

5. Depth & Quality of Friendships

• The elapsed time and the nature of interaction matter:
  • Social + task-oriented time together accelerates bonding ([23:31]).
  • Working through hardship deepens connections ([26:37]).
• Being fully present and making time for others is a “strategic choice” with measurable health benefits ([27:26]).
• Network size is shrinking, relationship quality is rising—people are becoming more selective ([28:10]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 28:10):
  “When we feel seen, that’s a resource.”

6. The Best Friend Question

• Having a best friend is valuable for emotional health.
• Dunbar’s research: About 150 “close” relationships possible, but only 2-3 in your innermost circle ([32:21]).
• Men usually have one close friend + partner; women often two close friends + partner ([32:36]).
• Should you have a work best friend? Polarizing views, but colleagues you can count on are crucial for satisfaction ([38:32]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 32:21):
  “A best friend is a really, really important friend to have. You do want a best friend. You want that person you can really count on.”

7. Work, Community, and Friendship

• Work is the second most common source of friendship. 76% of people make friends at work ([40:46]).
• The primary reason people stay at their jobs is workplace friendship.
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 40:46):
  “The number one reason people stay with an organization is because they have a good friend at work.”
• Work can also serve as a proxy for finding like-minded friends due to shared personality traits and interests ([41:33]).

8. The Remote Work Challenge

• Remote work reduces opportunities for friendship and promotion: 31% lower chance of promotion if you work remotely ([43:53]).
• The loss of proximity means fewer organic connections and less chance for advancement ([43:51]).

9. Declining Empathy and Optimism

• Empathy is plummeting due to disconnection ([44:54]).
• Empathy grows through exposure to real experiences or even fiction reading. “Empathy doesn’t mean we take on someone’s pain; it means we recognize and want to support.” ([47:27])
• Optimism, while challenged, is foundational for resilience and making life changes ([47:28]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 47:28):
  “Optimism...wasn’t just toxic positivity. It was understanding the future, investing in the future, feeling like there was hope for the future.”

10. Nature, Play, and Connection

• Outdoor and real-world shared experiences—like unique hikes or group adventure—strengthen bonds ([52:07], [54:51]).
• Switzerland’s “ball run” trail and midnight snorkeling are cited as potent examples of experiences that “connect people and engage them” ([52:07], [54:51]).
• Shared challenges (even facing “sharks”) draw people together ([54:51]).
• Quote (Dr. Tracy Brower, 54:34):
  “It’s a place to share, interact, spend time and learn together—not only about processes, but also about each other.”

11. Final Reflections and Takeaways

• Social connections powerfully affect health: reduces risk of death by 50% ([56:30]).
• You also need a healthy relationship with yourself; spending time alone, especially in nature or reading, builds resilience and empathy ([50:49]).
• Both children and adults must intentionally create and nurture opportunities for relationship-building.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On modern loneliness:
  "We are so disconnected from each other. So we've got to find our way through this, right? Find our way back to community or ... more sustainable relationships."
  —Dr. Tracy Brower ([05:59])

• On making friends outside of typical environments:
  “Book group or motorcycle enthusiast group … sometimes you just have to start your own. It takes a lot of intention and attention.”
  —Dr. Tracy Brower ([16:31])

• On friendship's health impact:
  “Having two or three close friends is correlated with heart health, longevity, depression, anxiety, cancer, dementia.”
  —Dr. Tracy Brower ([07:12])

• On empathy:
  “Empathy is something that we build by being closer and by building those connections.”
  —Dr. Tracy Brower ([47:27])

• On the impact of outdoor family experiences:
  “It’s the coolest thing ever … it’s that common experience that connects us. Sometimes we have less common experiences because we’re all doing our own thing ... but when we’re together, when we’re outside, when we’re in nature, we’ve got that common experience.”
  —Dr. Tracy Brower ([52:07])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Brower’s Introduction & Book Authorship – [01:21]-[03:08]
• Loneliness Statistics & Trends – [05:59]-[08:48]
• Making Friends: Where & How – [10:55]-[14:36]
• Intentionality & Barriers to Friendship – [16:31]-[19:25]
• Depth, Presence, and Quality in Friendship – [23:31]-[29:32]
• Best Friend Debate & Workplace Relationships – [32:21]-[40:46]
• Remote Work and Isolation – [43:51]-[44:41]
• Empathy and Optimism in a Changing World – [44:54]-[49:52]
• Nature, Group Experiences & Analogies – [52:07]-[56:30]
• Final Reflections: Community, Health, and Parenting – [56:30]-[58:40]

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Conclusion

This episode underscores the growing crisis of disconnection and the urgent need to prioritize real-life friendship in all phases of life. Dr. Tracy Brower’s insights, grounded in research and lived experience, offer hope and practical strategies for parents, workers, and communities seeking to rebuild social bonds—and the many health and happiness dividends such relationships return.

For more from Dr. Tracy Brower, visit tracybrower.com or connect on LinkedIn at Tracy Brower, PhD.

Transcript

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Jenny Urch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a Michigan friend here with us today, Dr. Tracy Brower. Welcome.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Thank you. So excited to be here.

[Jenny Urch]

A PhD sociologist studying happiness, work, life, fulfillment and the future of work. You have written several books. So I have here the Secrets to Happiness at Work. What a big topic. Tracy, you have a new book coming out called Crucial Connections. This one is all about community and friendships and building the relationships and harnessing the power of community both in work and life. And there's another book, Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work. Did I get them all?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

You did, yeah. And actually the second one you mentioned is called Critical Connections. So super.

[Jenny Urch]

I wrote it down.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

That's the new one.

[Jenny Urch]

I wrote it down wrong. I literally have Crucial Connections written on my thing. Critical Connections is the new one and that's what I took notes on mainly. It's a fantastic book. But a lot of these topics surrounding. We spend so much time at work.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Exactly, exactly. And we have this negative narrative of work being a drain and a terrible thing, but it can actually be a source of joy and more importantly, a sense of purpose and kind of we feel seen, we feel connected with Our coworkers. It's that connection piece that is so magical.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Absolutely.

[Jenny Urch]

Because you spend so much of your time there. So I love this. I love that you're talking about this and, you know, bringing more levity, I think, and hope to this part of our life that takes up so much of our time. And then also now you're extending in critical connections, you're extending to, you know, all these just different areas of life. I want to just hit start off with this because I have not actually read this yet in a book. Tracy, you wrote, it must be said that this book was written by me, a human with no portion. Written by AI.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

Tell us about. Tell us about. Including that. I mean, what an interesting day and age.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

I know. I know. We are in this moment where there's so much that's written by AI. I just saw a new stat, literally this morning, that 50% of what's posted online is written by AI.

[Jenny Urch]

And.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And I do not write with AI. I love to write. It's like what I do. It's who I am. Like, I really get a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment from it. So I don't use AI, but I don't use it to write. Like, I'll use it for other things, but never, ever to write. But we're in this moment right, where we have to say it out loud. And it's really funny. I will tell you this. This might be like a cone of silence that's now going public, but I used to be a huge M Dash user in my writing. Like, I used M Dash is all, all the time. And of course, now everybody thinks if you use an EM Dash, it's written by AI. So I went through the whole book, like, whatever it is, 65,000 words. I made sure there were no em dashes because by goodness, it's written by me. I didn't want to send the wrong message.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I. I think it's fantastic that you wrote it in there. You got a TEDx talk as well. Can you give us a little bit of your history, how you got in interested in this line of study?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going back to school for my Ph.D. and I was living the dream. Our son was 5, our daughter was 9. My husband, you know, we had all the things. And then I was going to go back to school, so I was threading the needle. And so that's really what started my interest in work life. And I wasn't sure about the concept of balance. Like, that just didn't feel like Enough. So I studied what are the alternative ways to think about work, life, fulfillment, work life, navigation, work, life, you know, satisfaction and all of the things. So that was my first book, Bring Work to Life. And then after that it was just really hitting me that there was so much of this negative narrative of work. So I thought, how can we talk about happiness at work? How can we talk about joy? Not that it's all bon bons and butterflies. We have really hard days. Work is hard. Whether we're working at home, whether we're working with children, whether we're working, you know, in a corporate environment or a healthcare or a learning environment. Work can be hard, but it can also be a source of fulfillment. So I wrote that book. And then in all of that, like follow up research, the secret is connection. Connection, connection and community. Like there's a blinking light around the importance of our connections for our health, for our well being. As we think about that physically, emotionally, cognitively, we do not all have to be extroverts, but we deeply need a few really meaningful connections. So that's what led me to write Critical Connections. And it's just, I'm so excited about it. I'm just, I. All the writing I was doing, it's just so fascinating and interesting.

[Jenny Urch]

Right?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like it's just really, really critical to us. And the timing is exactly right, right? Because 50% of people globally say they're lonely. Depression, anxiety are at record highs. We are so disconnected from each other. So we've got to find our way through this, right? Find our way back to community or find a way to be more sustainable in terms of our relationships.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. Wow, your work is so interesting. This TEDx talk has been viewed 8 1/2 million times. You are a senior contributor to Forbes as well as a contributor to Fast Company. So people can find you there on LinkedIn. You've got a newsletter. Your work has been translated into 24 languages. It just goes to show that all around the world people are looking for answers like this. Can you talk about the stats? So you just brought up 50% of US adults feel lonely. This is an even higher number for college students. Now I don't expect that you remember the exact numbers, but like it's even higher for, for college students, there's a high amount of stress, for Gen Z feeling burnt out. So there's that cohort and then also there's older adults. So can you talk about what's going on with those two populations?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, absolutely. The younger people are, the more likely they are to say that they are lonely and the more likely they are to say they do not have friends. I mean, it's just like incredible. The number one group that struggles with friendship is young men. I think. Don't quote me on the number. I think it's 27% of young men say they do not have a friend. But overall, the takeaway message is the younger people are, the more likely they are to say that they don't have friends. And friends are critical to our well being. Having two or three close friends is correlated with all kinds of health outcomes. More than our habits around diet or drinking, more than our habits around exercise and on par with smoking. So having a couple of good friends is correlated with heart health, longevity, depression, anxiety, cancer, dementia. This is research out of Brigham Young University. But also like having friends just helps us to have a better experience of life. Right. And, and the importance of kind of family as well. Right. We can sometimes being a mom can be especially isolating. Right. Depend. Especially depending on the ages of your children. But all are struggling in lots of ways. 98% of Gen Z's say that they are burned out, which is just like shocking and incredible. Right. We need to support them. We need to think about how do we build resilience because the world is always going to be stressful and so how do we have resilience? Which is part of why I love what you're doing in terms of a thousand hours outside.

[Jenny Urch]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like that builds experience in the real world and you scrape your knee and you find a toad and you, you know, do all the things with water play and the stre. And that builds that sense of resilience, but also connectedness. And you were asking about older adults as well. When older adults are more connected to their communities, they live longer and they live healthier lives. And there are really interesting, there's really interesting data. AARP has done tons of this data. Not surprisingly, it's aarp. Right? But when people are married, that's correlated with greater happiness and less loneliness and more longevity. When they have good friends, when they're engaged in activities with others. Those are things that are important to all of us. But especially as we age, we need to keep those connections going.

[Jenny Urch]

I love your work. I loved what I read out of critical connections. I love this, the secrets to happiness at work. I love what you talked about with the young men. This is personal for us. We have an A son who's about to graduate from high school and he's not choosing the college route. He's going to do some Entrepreneurship stuff. And our biggest concern has been relationships. That's what we talk about kind of the most, to the point where, Tracy,

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

he's got, like, a little bit of a later birthday.

[Jenny Urch]

He's in the right grade, but his

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

birthday is a little late.

[Jenny Urch]

We're like, why don't you just do your senior year again? He's like, absolutely not. I'm not going to do that. But we are looking out. And I actually had a friend that I was talking to yesterday who has a son that's one year older. He's 19. Same thing. He's an entrepreneur. You know, he's out. He's got a job, you know, and he works at this smaller place where there's not that many employees. And I said, how our friendships going? And the mom was like, not well. You know, he spends a lot of time with family, and that's good. But, you know, it's like, where. Where are they supposed to meet their people? And what's interesting in relationship to what you talk about, Tracy, is that for our son, we were like, okay, well, you're going to do this entrepreneurship. But he's like, but maybe I'll get a job at Chili's. I've got some friends that work there. And so, to your point, this is a big spot. A big spot.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

It is.

[Jenny Urch]

People can find their community.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

It is. It's just huge. It's just huge. Because whatever we're doing, if we have those connections with others, we're overall happier in terms of that relationship. There's some really interesting data. There's an organization called YouGov.com that's done some really interesting looks at generations and relationships and friendships. The number one place we make friends, statistically, is in high school. Those are lasting friendships that we tend to make. The number two place we make friends is work wherever we're working, right? And the number three place is actually college and university. We also make friends. Another place we make friends is through our activities. So a lot of parents say, oh, my gosh. All my friends are, you know, other soccer moms or other baseball moms or other violin moms, Right? But the other thing that's really interesting about friendship, and I talk about this in Critical connections as well. Statistically, it takes about 40 to 60 hours to make a friend. So that can add up slowly, right? Like, I talk to somebody 15 minutes before yoga class. We go out for, you know, an hour, and we have coffee or soda or whatever. Maybe we saw each other, you know, for a few minutes at the super bowl party. But interestingly at work is when we end up spending more time together, right? Like we're working our shift at Chili's or we're in the project room together, right? Or, or we're at, at college or high school and we're working on the project. I mean it's that time investment. But I think as we have more opportunities to connect online, the key is to make sure we're not replacing the opportunities to connect in real life. And that is one of the dynamics we're struggling with as a society right now, right? It's like I always say, it's like empty calories. Like I might love candy corn. I know candy corn is very polarizing. I happen to love it. But I, you know, I could like I could eat, I could eat meals of candy corn, but I'm going to be completely malnourished, right? And sometimes I think our online relationships are like that as well. We have, oh we have so many, you know, friends and connections and we get likes and we get engagements on our posts. But when we have a problem, who are we going to call, right? Who's that person that we can really, really count on? And those are relationships that we build in real life in the flash, face to face and, and even like on camera is, is good as well. But it's so different than just being on social media, right?

[Jenny Urch]

This is really interesting to Me, Tracy, this 1, 2, 3, 4 of where people find their friends because there is the possibility that none of these really work well for you. So for example, I went to a high school. I'm. We're both from Michigan, right? So my high school in plymouth, Canton area, 6000 students. I graduated with 1200 kids. And it' big campus, it's almost like a mini college. They pull from this huge geographic area. So I would have a class with the kid I really liked and then I am not kidding, I would never see that person again for the next several years. I run into people all the time. Like we went to high school together at the same time. I have no idea who you are. They have no idea who I am. So you know your high school experience. Maybe you come out with close friends, maybe you don't. I commuted to college, so same thing, go and come back. I had some friends but like I didn't make close friends. Like how my sister in law know, she went away and stayed on campus. So there's that a lot of people are entrepreneurs, you know, or solopreneurs where they, they don't have those work relationships and then Once high school ends, it's really easy for there to be zero activities.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And one of the things that's so interesting about the dynamics of belonging and connection. You don't get a sense of belonging just from being with other people. You get a sense of belonging from a shared sense of social identity. And, and you need proximity and you need frequency in your relationships. We have a cognitive bias and I talk about these cognitive biases and critical connections as well. We have a cognitive bias for familiarity. We tend to be more accepting of people that we see more frequently. We have a recency bias where we tend to remember people, oh, I just saw that person. I'm going to pull them onto my project or I'm going to invite them to the event or whatever. So our cognitive biases also matter. But the thing I think that's so critical is like you're not going to find your people in some big, you know, study hall or like classroom or some giant work experience where nobody's really connecting. You need like an affinity group or a friend group. And one of the things I talk about in Critical Connections as well is you might be able to find some of those things. Like I know a woman who moved to a brand new area and she was using Bumble and she actually made some great friends. Like they would get together for coffee. It was just this lovely. But that I think can be the exception. It might be hard to find a book group or a motorcycle enthusiast group or a, you know, outdoor hiking group. It might be hard to find those. And so one of the things I talk about is like sometimes you start your own, right? Like you feel like you want more connections and you know that one person who also loves to read. So you decide, hey, let's find one more friend and we're gonna have a book group and let's just start, let's just start with two or three of us and then we'll add other people, right? But it takes a lot of intention and attention to create those connections.

[Jenny Urch]

I think these are fantastic ideas. The book is called Critical Connection, so people can pick that up because to your point, of the four things, it's

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

like if you're out of high school

[Jenny Urch]

and you're out of college and you maybe are a stay at home mom, or you, you work very, you know, odd hours or you're like me, I'm just sitting in front of a computer making friends with people all over the world for one hour. You know, it's like then the activities is your only last choice. And when you're in high school, like our kids are in high school, there's tons of options. You want to be in theater, you want to play sports, you know, you want to sing, you want to be in the orchestra. I mean, there's so many options for activities. And then once you leave that environment, it just seems like the bottom drops out. And where is the safety net for this next set of ages? You know, it. It's there for call if you go away to college. It's often there. But. But I also think you have to be intentional even to join in on the things. And then you're like, oh, well, what There's. We're in this teeny little town, and our teeny little town has, like, two restaurants, and we don't go there often, but the other night I was there with one of my daughters, and on the table, they. They do a book club on Monday nights at this little restaurant called Bliss and Fish. And I was like, oh, that's fantastic. But this is a good reminder that you have to be aware. You have to be aware for your kids, I think. You know, I mean, helping them transition and to know these are the places where they're going to find their people. And that does really change the nature of work, doesn't it?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

It does. It changes it so much. And I think the other thing that's actually really, really important is if you are feeling lonely, it gets harder and harder to get out, and it gets harder and harder to cross the threshold. Mixing and mingling can be really hard. There's new data that social skills are plummeting. People are saying, I don't feel comfortable making a conversation. I'm not sure I feel comfortable making eye contact. How do I shake hands? When do I shake hands? What? I shake hands at a business or a book group.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And so I think there's also something about from a loneliness perspective, like, how do we get out? How do we push ourselves out of our comfort zone? Oh, my gosh. There's this book group I learned about at my local restaurant. Now I gotta show up. Which can feel a little scary, right? Depending on how comfortable you are with those social skills. So. You're so right. It's like putting in the effort, putting in the emotional investment to get there. And then it gets easier and easier. Right?

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. What a message of hope you wrote in the book. It's a vicious cycle. When people are lonely, interactions can help because they activate feelings of reward and positive mood. But if we're lonely, our brain chemistry may hamper the experience of happiness or satisfaction. So the social interaction doesn't feel as good when people are lonely. But you have to keep at it. You brought this up earlier and I thought this was super interesting. You have the amount of time to

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

make a friend, right?

[Jenny Urch]

And you go through all the hours. It's like if it's less than 10 hours, it's an acquaintance acquaintance if it's 30 hours, it's a casual friend. If it's 50 hours, hey, you know, we are friends. We know we've hit that. But 50 hours is a lot of time, you know, especially if you don't work together. 140 hours is a good friend. 300 hours. This where you're like starting to get to the best friend spot.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Jenny Urch]

in one place, from big furniture upgrades

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

to functional decor that actually solves a problem. Delivery was fast, assembly was straightforward, and there are even options if you want installation handled for you. It just feels streamlined. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, Every Home this episode is sponsored by Better Help. March is a month where we pause to celebrate women. And I've been thinking a lot about the women I'm raising. My daughters, the strength I see in them, the creativity, the courage. And I want them to grow up knowing that caring for their emotional health isn't weakness. It's wisdom. Women often grow up learning how to be everything for everyone else. The helper, the organizer, the steady one. The one who smooths things over. And while that strength is beautiful, it can also be exhausting. Therapy offers a place to step out of performance mode to reflect on the roles you play. The expectations you carry and the pressure you feel. It can help create balance, build boundaries, and remind you that your needs matter too. BetterHelp connects you with fully licensed therapists in the US who follow a strict code of conduct. They handle the matching process through a short questionnaire so you can focus on your goals. And if you need a different fit, you can switch anytime. With more than 30,000 therapists, over 6 million people served worldwide, and an average 4.9 out of 5 ratings across 1.7 million reviews. The support is there. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com 1000 hours that's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com 1000 hours okay, I have been waiting to say this. Womb Bikes is the official 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside. And it just makes sense because here's what I know. When kids fall in love with riding bikes, bikes, something shifts. They go from hesitant to flying down the sidewalk with total confidence. And that confidence spills into everything else. These bikes are lightweight, thoughtfully designed and built so kids can actually succeed. The brakes fit their hands. The geometry fits their bodies. They feel capable right away and in a world pulling our kids towards screens, bikes pull them toward freedom. So we are kicking off spring with a 100 hour ride challenge. We'll release a special tracker to log 100 hours outside on bikes and yes, app members. We're working on bringing that right into the 1000 hours outside app. It's going to be so fun if you've got younger riders.

[Jenny Urch]

The Womb Go bikes are perfect for

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Jenny Urch]

Wow.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Excluding the womb. Wow. That's outside 10 for 10% [e-mail] but

[Jenny Urch]

one of the things that you talked

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

about was there was a little bit

[Jenny Urch]

of nuance here because it depended on in what period of time you got those hours in. You know, it's different if it's a really lengthy period of time. So you're really trying to like immerse yourself.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

That's right. You're Immersing yourself. The other thing that's really interesting is what kind of things you're doing together. So if you're spending time together in an obligatory way, like we work together and oh my gosh, you know, we both work at Chili's and we happen to run into each other because we both have to be there on our shift, there might be less fuel for that relationship. On the other hand, when we're together because we want to be together, or we're together because we both love a certain activity, right? Like, oh my gosh, I love to go hiking together. I love yoga. And we're here, we are both loving our yoga. That makes a really big difference. And the intensity of the relationship matters as well, right? When we are together socially, that is really good for relationships. Absolutely wonderful. So keep doing your, you know, social stuff. And when we are involved in task together, it actually builds the relationship even faster when we're rolling up sleeves, when we have a mutual goal, right? I think of the hours and hours and hours I would spend with other moms, right, Setting up for events and how many tables I carried and set up and wiped and, you know, how much food we prepared together. It was like, it was. It was great work, but it was actually super bonding because we were working together. We had certain things that had to get done. By goodness, we were all pitching in. And so tasks is a huge driver of bonding. Even more than just social. The other thing that I think is really interesting about relationships is continuity over time. Like, we might have that really, really great friend that we go through something with and, and then we just stay in touch with them over time. And that has huge meaning for us. It actually contributes to our identity. Like when we have those longer term relationships, they remind us of who we were. They remind us of how far we've come. They remind us that somebody still knows us and we still know them. And so therefore, we're part of a community. So that's really good stuff. And the last thing I would say too, about just intensity in relationships is if we go through hard times together, that's one of the most significant contributors to bonding. Not that we're looking to go through hard times together, not that we're creating difficulty, but if we go through something really hard, that actually creates such a lasting bond, like, you know, I'll never forget, we were. We were going through a certain sporting experience with one of our children. And the coach was just really, he. He was kind of Attila the Han. It was a really, really, really hard experience. It was hard for the kids and then for the, for the parents, we were like, you know, like, we don't want to step in and disempower. We want to have our kids take responsibility and, you know, get through it. And we don't want to enable them so they feel like they don't have personal resilience and we need to support them deeply and meaningfully. I mean, it was just this really hard dynamic that we went through for a while and we have bonds to this day because we've been through that together.

[Jenny Urch]

So, yeah, you touch on all of this in the book. So I love how you talked about, you know, you're giving this overall view, but then you're saying, look, there's, there's

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

a little bit of things you need

[Jenny Urch]

to make sure that, you know, beyond the time. So you talk about how the elapsed time matters. The time matters, but also the elapsed time over, you know, a short period. You talk about that the conditions matter, all these things that you brought up, the nature of the interactions matter, matter. Being fully present matters. And then you wrote this. Spending time with others is a strategic choice. Psychologically. That's a great thing to say because I think often we just think of our friendships like, oh, if they happen, they happen. You know, I hope they do. But you're like, no, this is a strategic choice. Can you touch on. Because this feels almost like, you know, seventh grade language. Should we have a best friend?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, it going back to that strategic choice just for a second. Interestingly, the, the strategic choice is very much psychological language. Like, like some of the best relationships maybe shouldn't feel strategic. Right. Like, I'm, I'm not here in order to get something from you. I'm not here because I'm feeling manipulative. I'm here because I want to offer something to you. And, and I believe, believe the strategic choice part of it has to do with resources. Psychologically, we invest time in activities and relationships that provide us with resources. Resources in the form of emotional support, resources in the form of helping, resources in the form of time.

[Jenny Urch]

It's real.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

So you think about like, kind of the bigger, like the bigger picture of resources. Right? This isn't like somebody's buying your lunch, like money resource. This is time and support and attention. And even feeling seen is a really important part of mental health. So when we feel seen, that's a resource. Right. So that's what I mean by the strategic resource. And so at a, at, at both a conscious and a subconscious level, we're making choices about who we spend time with. The other thing that I would say that there's some really interesting data they did. It was about 40,000 people in four waves. This is national data. This doesn't happen to be global. And they asked people, are you. Are you seeing the same quantity of people? And what's the quality of your relationships? And through these survey questions, they found that people had been reducing the size of their networks and increasing the quality of their relationships. What they were doing was saying, you know, I know so many people in so many places, but I really want to invest in the relationships that absolutely mean the most to me. So I thought that was really cool. I mean, we might have a million friends, and that's great. That's what we need, that's what we want. And when we are selective about the time that we're spending, when we're selective about the investment we're making, that makes a huge difference. So. And then you had another question about friendship.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, but no, I want to stick here for one minute. We'll come back to the best friend, because I love that you talked about the best friend in the book. Should you have a best friend?

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

And you.

[Jenny Urch]

And you answer it in critical connections. But it is interesting that, that you bring up this strategy. I read this book recently called Super Communicators by a man named Charles Duhigg.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

I've read it.

[Jenny Urch]

It's a good book. And one of the things, I mean, it was strategic, is a strategic book. Here's how you go from a question that surface level to deep. And one of the things that he talked about was having a plan for your conversation. And he said, even if you don't use the plan, you should have two or three questions in your back pocket so that you feel more confident that you know where the direction is going to head. And I was like, that. That's super strategic. Almost seems a little odd. But, you know, we talked about how it really works. I read a book by Jennifer Wallace named Mattering, and she talked about how you have to. You have to kind of make sure you matter. And especially at these different junctions where maybe you retire or your kids move out and you have this big transition of life change. And it's very easy to be, maybe you're the one that now is being taken care of and you don't matter to anyone, so you belong. But she went further and said, you need to matter. And basically she used. I mean, it wasn't the language of strategy, but the premise was you got to know it's coming, and then you have to kind of figure it out. And so I think our relationships can be an afterthought in terms of the strength of them, and yet they're so important. That's what you're going through in this book. I mean, time and time again, you're

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

talking about how this affects.

[Jenny Urch]

Affects health. And so it should be something that we're strategic about. Sahil Bloom talks about the five types of wealth, and one of them is our relational wealth.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And so you, you brought up like, we're strategic about our money. You know, we're strategic about so many other things. We also need to be strategic about our friendships. So then can you talk about the. I mean, the statistics. Statistics are so interesting, and they've changed even since 1990. There are statistics that are comparing 1990 to now. So men's friendships have declined more than women's over the past decades. It was a lot of. In 1990, 55% of men said they had at least six close friends. By 2021, only 27% said they had at least six close Friends. That's a huge drop. That's half. It was already only half to begin with, and then it half to gim. The number of men who say they have no close friends is up to 15%. Young men, 27%. But for the. For the older men, it's five times more than 1990. So all these comparisons, one of the things that you bring up is best friends. So in 1990, 75% of people said they have a best friend. And then you answer the question, you know, almost feels like, my kids talk like this, but should you have one?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah. A best friend is a really, really important friend to have. You. You do want a best friend. You want that. That you can really, really count on. And I love the language that we all have an instinct to matter.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like, we all want to matter to somebody. And so when we have that best friend that we can count on, that we have that really trusting relationship with, that makes a huge difference. And I was thinking about your point about the questions that we ask. Right. And how strategic we are. Curiosity is a really great fuel for building relationships. When I'm empathetic about you, when I tune into you, when I'm curious, Curiosity can drive a lot of those inquiries that we make. Those questions we have, we have our questions we plan for, but then we're also curious. And that helps us build a best friend relationship. There's also some wonderful work by a classic psychologist and sociologist Robin Dunbar. And he talks about how based on the size of our brains and the number of neurons, we, we can have about 150 close relationships. Like that's the number of people that you can kind of remember what's going on with their family and where they live and what they do in life and all the things. So that's about 150, which isn't a huge number in, in broader circles we can have more ties, right? Ties online, professional ties, what we call weak ties. And those are all important for the community. So 150 is kind of the max number where you can kind of keep track of what's going on with folks, folks. But then you work your way in in terms of concentric circles as well. And that inner circle is two or three people. And there's a gender difference here. This is interesting. A lot of times men will have one really, really close friend and their partner. And a lot of times women will have two really, really, really close friends and their partner. But that inner circle is a few people that were most close to. And so having a best friend is really important for our sense of ourself, our sense of confidence, our sense of support. Now the big debate is, should you have a best friend at work? Should you have friends at work? Is that tmi? Is it too close? And there is a lot of polarization on that question.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Jenny Urch]

I love that my kids are building

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[Dr. Tracy Brower]

I did an article one time for Fast Company about, you know, the value of friends at work and it blew up online in terms of people saying, absolutely, I need a best friend at work, that's the most important. And then other people saying, absolutely not. It's a terrible idea to have too close a friend at work network. I think the most important thing is do we have colleagues we can count on? So whether you define that as a best friend, whether you define that as friendship, whether you define that as collegiality, you need a colleague you can count on. And you need people in your personal life that you also feel like you can count on that you build trust with. And trust is built significantly through training, transparency, through authenticity, through offering help to each other. All of those things build friendship.

[Jenny Urch]

So we have to be strategic about it because this is incredibly important and the book helps you to do that. You that is really interesting about work, that it would be one of those things that's debated because people say it, it's show business, not show friendship, you know, or like my husband always says, no one's looking out for you but you in a work setting, you know, they'll, they'll cut, you know, I mean, obviously that's like a little bit more of a pessimistic view. But it does happen. You know, you get your job cut or you know, from someone that you really cared about or you worked. I mean, I remember my dad had worked for this company for so long, Tracy, and I remember, and he was like expecting to move up, you know, to the next position for so long. And he talked about it and then, you know, I don't know, like they change management or the company got bought, I can't remember. And he lost his job. It was like, you know, one day you're thinking this is my trajectory and the next day you're packing your boxes. And so you can see why people would be trepidatious. I think about those relationships. Yeah, but it's a tricky thing because you say for 70, 76% of people, work is one of the primary places that may they make friends. And this is important. So I guess it's just one of those things that that has some nuance to it and you probably have to be like a little bit more guarded. But it is still an important thing.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important. And, and I think like one of the things that we know statistically, the number one reason people stay with an organization is because they have a good friend at work. That is still true, right? It's cliche, but it's been reinforced multiple times through studies, bodies. And if people leave a job, even if it's been your choice to leave, one of the hardest things is leaving your people behind. Because proximity drives relationships so much, right? Like when we see each other, we just know more about each other. We know what's going on. There's also really interesting data about why we have friends. There's kind of, and this is Dunbar's work as well, seven pillars of friendship. And some of the things, some of the, some of the interesting research is the more of these pillars we have, the more the, the closer the relationship will be and the more longer lasting it will be. So it's things like a common, you know, shared sense of the music that we like and a common sense of humor and you know, clearly like views on politics and, and morality. Similar, similar diff approaches in terms of the hobbies and activities that we like. But another element that's one of the pillars of friendship is our profession or our vocation. And interestingly, we, this is not shocking or rocket science, but our profession, our vocation is a proxy for personality. So like, we choose professions based on our personalities, right? Like there isn't a one to one relationship. But in general, if you have certain, certain personality characteristics, you tend to choose different kinds of work or different vocation in life. And we tend to be immediately attracted to people who are more like us, more similar. That's called homophily. We also need people who are different from us to be optimally happy. But our automatic is to kind of find people who are like us. So that's why work or profession or vocation are important in terms of making friends. Like these are our people, right? Like we're all, we're super analytical and we are with a lot of super analytical people in the accounting department, right? These are our people. Or we're super creative and we're in show business together. These are our people. So I think that's fun to think about too is like, what are the elements that are attracting us to each other and what are the elements that are deepening our relationships and us and reinforcing those similarities in terms of what's driving part of our reasons for friendship.

[Jenny Urch]

That's all, I think, really interesting information, especially for parents, like, as we're trying to guide our children. It's obviously a really different day and age with the nature of work. And I think a lot of parents are, I mean, like myself, a little bit freaked out of how do you guide your kid? But there's such a draw toward remote work and freedom, and you have to know the other side of that. And the other side of that is

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

what you address you. Like you talk about.

[Jenny Urch]

You're 31% less likely to get a promotion if you work remotely. That's super interesting. But in light of all the things that you've said, it makes a lot of sense. Nobody's seeing you. You know, these relationships aren't being built. So it gives you a lot to think about in terms of how we spend our time and what we do with our work life, because that's a big, big part of our adulthood. So a lot to learn in all of these books. The new one is called Critical. Oh, gosh, I usually have it sitting right next to me. The new one is called Critical Connections. And there's also the secrets to happiness at work, how to choose and create purpose and fulfillment in your work. And then there's also bring work to life by bringing life to work. These are all really helpful books. Can you talk about the.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

There's.

[Jenny Urch]

There's other two other things that you bring up that well. One for sure is plummeting empathy. And it seems like optimism might be going down. I'm not sure, but both are critically important.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

So can we talk about that, how

[Jenny Urch]

empathy and optimism fit in here?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up. Empathy is plummeting. There, there's brand new data on this, like in the last 12. 12 months. 9 months. Wow. The. The problem is that we are more disconnected from each other. Empathy is I. Cognitive empathy. I'm. I imagine what you must be thinking. Emotional empathy. I imagine what you might be feeling. Statistically, we tend to have greater empathy when we have greater access to people. So, like we, we. We see people who are struggling and that triggers empathy for us. We hear people talking about their experience and that triggers empathy for us. We. We talk to somebody about what they're going through and that gives us a sense of empathy. And if we have less of those experiences, that gets in the way of our empathy. And empathy tends to build on itself. Right. Like the more we feel for someone else, the more, the better we get at that. Like, the easier it is is to identify with people. And it's important to say empathy doesn't mean we take on somebody's pain. It means we recognize and we want to support. We don't have to solve their problem, but we recognize and we want to support. So I think a really critical thing about empathy is that we need more connection with each other so we can be more empathetic. There's some really frightening, incredible data from Gallup, and they looked at the number of people globally, sort of region by region and country by country, who had, who said they had friends in the community and felt connected to their community. And the less people felt connected to their community and had friends, the more there was strife, civil unrest, conflict, like, like, like social conflict and country level conflict and region level conflict. The takeaway message is we just have to, we have to feel connected to each other, we have to care about each other, we have to have compassion for each other. And empathy drives all of those things. And so empathy is something that we build by being closer and by building those connections. The other thing you asked about is optimism. And I actually, it's really funny you say this. I actually wrote about this in my LinkedIn newsletter this week because I was reading an article that somebody said we're in a post optimistic world. And I thought, heaven forbid, that's terrible. Like, like a post optimistic world. That's like, I don't know, that's apocalyptic.

[Jenny Urch]

Right?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Right. I actually think there's tons of evidence for optimism. And while there are hard things going on, we do also see data that people are feeling. In fact, I, I, there's brand new data. Let me think about the source for it. I just wrote an article on it. People are feeling like there are lots of challenges. It's like 84% of people say, wow, now I see barriers and challenges in front of me. And three quarters of people say, I feel up to the task. I feel like I can make a difference. And so this is about resilience, right? Like, we see the challenges in front of us, but huge proportions of people also say they, they feel like they can make a difference. And so I think that's about optimism. There's also a beautiful study from Boston University, and they looked at 71,000 people over 30 years. 30 years, 71,000 people. When people were more optimistic, they lived 11 to 15% longer and they, they were 50% more likely to reach the age of 85. However, it wasn't just like toxic positivity, right? Like, like stupid optimism. It was Understanding the future, it was investing in the future. It was feeling like there was hope for the future future and hope for the future and a sense of empathy are absolutely fuel for us to get out of bed in the morning. Right. Like, you have to have a sense of optimism in order to feel like you want to contribute, in order to feel empowered, in order to feel like the thing that you're going to do is going to matter to somebody. So. So I think this really. Cultivating a sense of connection, cultivating a sense of empathy, cultivating a sense of. Of, you know, we're going to get through it. That sense of optimism are really, really critical to us as parents and as individuals.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Because I think that's the other thing. Right. Like, our children need to see that we can see something ahead of us and that's that growth mentality as well. Right. Like, it's not. We're not stagnant or static. The world isn't static in where whatever place we're in now, now we really can make a difference. We can be empowered. We can. We can create the conditions for kind of a better world tomorrow.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, for sure. And I. I love that for kids and really and for adults, too, you can build your empathy through reading. Reading is down. But fiction is such a great. I just read this book and I got to interview an author and it's like such a. Like a random one, but the book is called Cold Zero. And it was like a thriller about this plane that goes down in the Arctic. And you can imagine yourself in that position. What would I do if I was in a plane that went down in the Arctic and I'm on an. On a. Ice. You know, a floating ice flow and, you know, and all of these people are trying to come steal this AI box that I have, you know, and it's, you know, in some ways that's kind of silly, but it does put you in the position to consider yourself in a different position.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes, exactly. Yes. And there's that wonderful research that we literally build empathy through reading fiction. Like, it's a really, really good idea. One of the things I talk about in the book is how in addition to making friends with others, you need to make friends with yourself. Right.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Like.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like it's. It's really healthy if we also feel comfortable being by ourself. And that might be taking a walk in the woods that might be, I don't know, doing a chore, like. Like doing the dishes and just like taking a minute and being away from all the other things or gardening Right. Or reading books can be just a wonderful way to just immerse ourselves in another world and build that empathy and just enjoy our time alone, which is also fair and wonderful.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. And I love, you know, I read a couple books this past year about reading fluency and they talk about how your background knowledge is important and also your speed is fairly important in that, then that comes together so that you really enjoy reading. And you talked about the ability to read others and use somewhat similar language, you know, talking about these reciprocal relationships. So that's in the book too. Legibility, you know, how well can you read other people?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes.

[Jenny Urch]

And I thought there was some cool parallels there. So that's also in the book. People can learn more about that. I want to wrap it up with a couple outdoor things. So one of the things that you talked about, I was like, I would like to go here is this place in Switzerland where there is a hike that's about three and a half miles and there is a set of like shoots and pulleys and drops and you roll a ball. What a place.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

It's the coolest thing ever. A friend of mine went there with their daughter and it's this long hike and it's, it's really kind of a hard hike. And their daughter was so about it, she loved it. And the, these shoots, you can like move them and adjust them on the trail. And then you get this like ball at the beginning. It's kind of, I think like kind of a bocce ball kind of size. Right. And weight and then you're rolling. But it's just what I love about it is it's about being outside, it's about exercising, it's about shifting your, your environment.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like it's empowering and it's agency. And if I roll the ball this way and if the shoot goes that way and it's a. About family and it's about connections. Like, hey, let's try this. Or oh, look at this one, mom, look at this one, dad. Right. Like somebody's running ahead on the trail. It is such a beautiful analogy and reality in terms of being able to be on this trail together. And just like it's the, it's that common experience that connects us. Right. Like sometimes we have less common experiences because we're all doing our own thing and we're all doom scrolling by ourselves and we're all streaming a different show and whatever. But when we're together, when we're outside, when we're in nature, we've got all that sensory Things going on and we've got that common experience. And then we're going to talk about the. Oh, my gosh. Remember when that ball plummeted and it almost, you know, like, hit the other group and wasn't that amazing? And we, you know, saved them by grabbing about whatever. Right? We've got funny experiences that we talk about that. Remember, we have inside joke jokes. Those all mean so much to us in terms of the bonding that happens from common experiences.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, I loved this example. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I would love to go. And maybe we should have. Maybe someone should make one, you know, here in Michigan, because what an incredible way to keep a family, especially kids, engaged. There were catapults. I mean, it shoots pulleys and catapults. And you've got this ball and it all runs alongside the path for three and a half miles. So this little ball girl was about six years old. And you wrote the trail is a powerful example of a community that has invested in active experiences that connect people and engage them. Because of course, the kid's going to want to go there or, you know, a couple moms with all their kids or a couple families with all their kids. I mean, that would be a really. I mean, I think a regular three and a half mile hike is great too, but this is different. This has got this extra level of engagement there. So you wrote it's a place to share.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Share.

[Jenny Urch]

To share, interact, spend time and learn together not only about processes, systems and mechanics, but also about each other. One more really cool nature reference that's in Critical connections is. Is a midnight snorkel to see sharks.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. This is in Roatan. It's like one of our favorite places ever. It's an island that is part of Honduras. It's the most amazing place. So my husband and our son went snorkeling together. They did this, like, midnight snorkel. They are not big snorkelers. They're just guys in the water with swim trunks. Right? And so the, the guide was like, oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

He.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

He gave everybody a tin can with coins in it. And he said, if you see a shark, just wiggle your tin can with coins. I'm like, seriously, like, my people are in. In the face of utter doom, and you're going to have them wiggle at the tin can with coins in it. But the thing that was really interesting about that is that in, in nature, ecology drives tiny fish to swim together. And, and they get protection when they swim together because predatory fish apparently, apparently have low visual acuity. So they see this shadow in the water, which is lots of tiny fish, and they think it's another big fish so they don't go after them. So that was the instruction to my husband and our son, was, wiggle your tin can and, like, swim together with the other humans and you'll be less likely to be eaten by a shark. Right. But I love it as an analogy because of just the connection. Right. Nature is so cool, and you're doing something together and you're taking risks together, and that bonds you. And it's this wonderful analogy for how we need to stick together from a safety standpoint, from a fulfillment standpoint.

[Jenny Urch]

I love that one. I thought that was fantastic. What a book. Huge congrats. I mean, these three books all together are so life enhancing because, like we've talked about, we spend so much of our time at work. You said there was a statistic about having strong social relationships and a few good friends reduces the risk of death by 50%. What a thing. What a thing. People are our lifeblood, you write, and our connections make or break our health and happiness. So all of these books will sort of be a foundation for you to help to have a better life and to look at your work a little bit differently, to help guide your kids as they're making these transitions into the working world. So it's an honor, an honor, Tracy, to get this time with you.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

It's an honor to get the time with you, Jenny. I love it. Thank you so much.

[Jenny Urch]

Can you let people know where they can find you?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes, they can find me on tracybrauer.com. it's all there. You can buy the books wherever books are sold. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you name it. Wherever books are sold. I'm on all the social channels on LinkedIn. I'm Tracy Brower, PhD, but I'm on all the social channels, so you can find me anywhere. I'm easy to find.

[Jenny Urch]

Yes. And you're constantly putting out new information. Like you said, you just wrote an article this past week about optimism, so great things to follow there. We always end our show with the same question.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Oh, a favorite memory from my childhood. Oh, my gosh. We lived on a really, really deep ravine, and there was a kid across the ravine, and we used to play together in the ravine all the time. We would go down, down, down, down, down the ravine. And there were like, the skater bugs. You know, they would be the skater bugs on top of the water and we would make this bridge across so we could see each other. This we had hours in this ravine with water and redirecting the water and finding bugs and frogs and it was the best thing ever.

[Jenny Urch]

That sounds like it could be a kid's book series, doesn't it? Yes, the ravine. Oh, I love that. I love it. Tracy, I love the book. I love what you're doing. Thank you so much for being here.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Thank you. I appreciate it

[Jenny Urch]

too.

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