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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 745: Inspiring Families to Travel Better | Jenna Lee Dillon, Look Up
00:56:12
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training Tread plus@onepelaton.com Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
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B
My name is Jenny Ayrton, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. We're gonna be talking about traveling, traveling with our kids today, heading into the spring and into the summer. This is the perfect time. I'm sure people are envisioning, you know, what memories they're gonna make with their family. The author of Look Up A Wild and Screen Freed Road Map to Enjoying. That's the key. Are we gonna enjoy this travel with our kids? Jenna Lee Dillon is here. Welcome, Jenna Lee.
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A
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
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B
Okay, so this is an exceptional story. I mean, you're like, okay, you know, I want it. We want to get out, we want to see the world. I'm going to take my child with me. But you're pretty intentional as well about having those experiences be as screen free as possible. So can you give us your backstory on that intention and where that came from?
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A
Sure, yeah. I'm a. An avid traveler. In my youth, I grew up in a small town in Colorado and I traveled through books and I, they, yeah, I just, that was, that was what was available in my family. We went on camping trips and things like that. But I lusted for this adventure, for getting to go to places unknown, the hotspots, of course, but also just the corners of the world that were the farthest. And I wanted to get there and see how people lived. And I always had this desire that I would just blend in. Right. I didn't want to be the tourist. I wanted to be the person who was being welcomed into someone's, you know, to life to observe it. So when I became an adult, I pursued that and I had a very small budget. But I traveled everywhere I could, anytime I could. And what I came to realize was the destination was really only half of it. And on the way to wherever I was headed, I would meet people, I would observe things, I would have wild experiences. Some of my best travel stories are actually in the airport, on the train, you know, in route to where I was going. And so I, it became clear to me that travel Includes the time you spend getting there and, and the experiences you have getting there. So I knew I wanted to travel with my daughter and I wanted her to experience all of it, the journey as well as the destination. And I think it's really easy nowadays to remove ourselves from the journey, and I understand the inclination to do that. And I. I think we're missing out when we do that. And I mean that metaphorically in life as well as just specific to travel.
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B
Sure. Okay, so talk about some of your earliest travel. So you talked about in your 20s, you quit a job, you sell everything, and you go to Ireland.
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C
You moved there.
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A
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I had. Well, I didn't realize we were about to hit a massive economic collapse. And so I very loftily was like, my job will. A job will be here when I get back. And I did. I quit an amazing job post college opportunity and I sold all my furniture and my vehicle and I. My rucksack and I showed up in Ireland to woof, which stands for Worldwide Opportunities on Organic Farms. So basically you go live with someone, you do labor for them, and they house and feed you. And so that was sort of my low budget way to just elongate my time in Ireland and Europe as long as I could.
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B
Generally. That could be so awkward. Was it, Was it awkward?
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A
Sometimes at one place I stayed in a converted van, which was not communicated before I got there. And so I had to like hike into the house, you know, a quarter mile down the road to use their restroom and shower and everything. And then I stayed in the van. So that was a trip. Another place where I have some of my fondest memories. There were like 15 of us from all over Europe in the US staying with this family, helping them turn a very, very building from the 1600s into a hostel. But it turns out they ultimately were like abusing the wolf policies because they weren't giving people days off. And they were feeding us like PB and JS and we were doing manual labor. We were building a wall out of tires by filling them with dirt and sledgehammering the dirt into it. I mean, crazy. And so they got reported and they had to feed us better. So, you know, it could have been this terrible experience. But I'm still in touch with people I met while, while there.
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B
So. Yeah, yeah, because when else are you going to have such a bonding experience like that where you're like, no one else is ever going to have an experience that's the same. You know, it's super unique. So this just gives an insight into like how adventurous you are. There are not that many people that are like, I'm going sell my car, I'm quitting my job, I'm sell everything I own, I'm going to go just see what Ireland has for me and I'm going to move there. So then you have a child. And I think a lot of people are under the impression that once you have a child, you know, your traveling days are pretty much over, but you have turned that on its head. Talk to us about what you know about your thoughts when you're transitioning into being a mother and like kind of what has happened along throughout the years.
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A
Yeah. So I can't take full credit for that. I, I did have an interaction that I describe in the book with a mom of four who, you know, I was lamenting, oh, I'm gonna have to give up travel when I have kids. And she was, I'm headed to Puerto Rico next week with all four kids. Like, you do not have to give it up. And that sort of expanded my perspective and, and gave me the opportunity to start dreaming and thinking, okay, if I'm not giving up travel, how am I bringing my child along? And some of that required really long range planning. Like I knew from the beginning when she was born, for example, I didn't want to create a super quiet environment when she was sleeping because I knew she'd have to be able to sleep on the go. So we always talked while she was an infant and you know, the dog wasn't silenced and there were sounds and so she grew accustomed to sleeping in a not totally controlled environment. So there's a, there was a lot of long range planning that kind of went into it like that. And then some of it was just willy nilly, let's find out. And I found out
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B
and so I. You talk about. Yeah, like you said, you talk about that story in the book. You said you're grateful to your friend for sharing her story and encouragement. You say it'll look different, but you don't have to stop. You can bring them along. Don't change something that is fundamental to who you are. Because don't you want it to be fundamental to who your children are? 2. So at this point of writing this book, which is called Look Up a Wild and Screen Freed Road Map to Enjoying Travel with Kids, you had taken 54 domestic flights, 11 international flights, and 51 road trips with your daughter. 120 screen free trips. Yeah. Okay, so give us a little insight into the. I mean, that's a, That's a lot. 11 international flights, 54 domestic flights, and 51 road trips. Most people will never do that in a lifetime, right?
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A
Well, one pro tip. Get the Southwest companion pass, because everywhere I flew, my daughter flew for free. That's really. That was key to us being able to afford that.
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B
Yeah. Okay, tell us some of the places you've been.
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A
Well, a lot of those flights are rather unexciting, so they're to and from Phoenix to visit. My. My grandparents are still with me, so my daughter's great grandparents, so we go two to four times a year to see them in Phoenix. You mentioned that I'm an adventurer, and as such, I've lived in a lot of different places, and I leave friends behind. So we have a best friend in California. We fly to visit. I have a best friend in Portland. We fly to visit. I have a lot of friends still in Phoenix who we fly to visit. So those are a lot of the domestic flights that we take. It's just seeing our people. It's really important to me to show up for the baby showers, the weddings, the. Even some of the birthdays. And so that, because of that, Canyon Pass were able to go show up for them. And then the international flights, I took advantage of that lap baby situation.
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B
So we.
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A
We went to France and London before she was one. We actually flew back on her first birthday, and she was, you know, we only had to pay the taxes for her, so that was really cool. And then some of the other international flights, Southwest has a number of places they fly internationally. I promise this is not an ad for Southwest and just explaining, you know, how a family. It sounds like maybe means are greater than they are. That's one of the ways we've been able to do it. We. We find flight deals and we take advantage of those. But yes, we've been to Mexico and Canada visiting friends. Those are some of the other international.
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B
Wow. You done this as a. As a single mom?
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A
Yeah. Yeah. So the. Well, the first two years I was married, but still, most of those trips were her and I. And yeah, since then, it's just. It's just been my little travel buddy and me. And she. I think that she really sees herself as a traveler, like it is. Oh, sure, right.
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C
I'm sure.
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B
I'm sure. Yeah. What a thing. Okay, so you did write the read. The primary reason we travel is for our relationships. They're the most important thing.
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A
The.
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B
The twist here, you know, of course, it's like traveling is a pressure cooker is what you write. So, you know, There's a lot. We always talk about how there's just so many more decisions and, you know, like little ones of where we're going to eat or, you know, that type of thing. There's so many more decisions. But you, you give a lot of advice in the book, the biggest thing that people really gasp about. So it's like, oh, goodness, that's a lot of travel, a lot of road trips, a lot of flights. But more than that, because it's 20, 26, it's screen free. So talk to us about, you know, your goal of having screen free travel, why and how. Sure.
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A
The why is so because our approach for LP was screen free for the first two years and because we were milking that lap baby status as much as we could, inevitably that meant we had to figure out how to travel screen free. And the why to the screen free perspective across the board for me is really based in neuroscience. So we know that children are learning in those first five years of life through modeling. So almost everything they learn comes from interactions with their caregivers and people in their lives. It cannot be replicated on a device. It can't be replicated by them being told or them reading it. It literally has to be from interactions. And so it was really important to me that devices not disrupt that process between me and my daughter and between any, anyone el who was taking care of her. We know that the overuse of technology, even just by the adults, is disruptive. So for example, for toddlers, they're giving cues that are sometimes audible and sometimes with their body. And if the caregiver is staring at a phone, they miss the cue. And so the child doesn't get that responsiveness that helps them build a healthy attachment. And then also the, the child misses the cue on the parent's face and so doesn't learn. That's how they start to learn facial expressions and interactions and all of that that lead to conversation later. So I just, I just knew from that perspective I, I didn't want her on a device, but I also didn't want me on a device at all. And let me tell you, that was actually the bigger learning curve while I was traveling. It was, I'm not going to sit on this phone, on this plane, on my phone because there's nothing for her to do and I don't want to model that for her. That was, I would say that was more challenging than, than not giving her an iPad. For families that are interested in it, I would say that the very easiest thing to do is to never start. So, quick story, if you don't mind. She. She still has never. So we're at over 70 flights now. She's still never had a device on a flight or a road trip with me. She actually doesn't have any access to devices when she's in my household. But her dad was taking her to Disneyland a couple years ago, and I said, look, I'm handing you a perfect little traveler as far as children go. But she doesn't need any screen time. Just don't even offer it. It's not a thing. And on the way home, he gave her his iPad to play some game, and then he took it away from her at the end of the flight, and she had a tsunami meltdown. And that was really educational for him. He sort of got to learn, like, in the moment of, this is why I don't do this. But it was also a reflection of what I always say to families, is it's much easier to never start than it is to take it away. Now, if you have started, that's not a case for hopelessness. The transition can be made. And kids actually adjust really quickly because their brains, because of neuroplasticity in their brains, they're just. They're. It's easier for them to form new habits and let go of old habits. But, yeah, the real key is to just never start offering devices while on travel or wherever you want to set a boundary, and then. And then it's just not even a thing they know about.
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C
Okay.
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B
So obviously, then you must fill the time with other things. And yesterday I was at this museum where they had these car bingos. And it's a. I was like, this is a flashback to my childhood. You could buy it in the store. They're like, you know, like a little store at the museum. And it was just like this square. And, you know, you would pull the little. It's like a little red film with a handle on it. And it would be like, oh, I. You know, I just saw a truck or whatever. The thing is, I saw a stop sign. They're trying to get bingo. My daughter was like, what is this? I was like, this is a throwback to my childhood. Can you talk about, you know, like, you're like, look, you know, they might even, like, a couple blue cups. You know, you give some different ideas on what to do instead. For here. I think this is important, Jenna Lee, because actually, we've lost this skill. And I've told this story before because it's so shocking, but this man, Dr. Leonard Sacks wrote a book called the collapse of parenting, and he's a pediatrician, and he was saying that he had a mom that came in that was like, how do people used to change diapers before cell phones? Because I just give my kids spongebob squarepants on my iPhone while I change the diaper, and I. I don't even know how I would change the diaper if I didn't have this phone. She's like, what do people used to do? So I, you're gonna have to give us the what do people used to do? Because not only, okay, it's one thing to be like, okay, screens on travel, but like, like, I see screens at Disney. At Disney. Here's the child in the stroller at Disney on their iPad. Or I've been at several amusement parks where the kid, like, whatever. I'm not, like, judging you, but I'm like, goodness, I think we've just really lost this skill. Help us gain it back.
- [15:23]
A
Sure. So I think everybody wants me to give them a list of toys and games that they can take in the car to entertain their kids. And I. And I will. And I do. And to. To your point and. And the point of your story, it's really about perspective. We've got to realign our perspective. And one of the key factors of that is this discomfort with our children's potential unhappiness. And I think that we are losing the ability to weather our children's unhappiness or dissatisfaction, and that's to their detriment, because life is going to hand us situations where we are unhappy with the outcome or we are dissatisfied with something that we're enduring, and we. We've got to be able to meet that. And so when we act like a buffer and we protect our children from the discomfort of, say, boredom, they don't get to experience that in the small stake situations of childhood, and it doesn't equip them to deal with it in the big stake situations of adulth. So really, the first step is pausing and getting to understand, like, what am I responding to? And is it a desire to protect my child from discomfort, dissatisfaction, boredom, unhappiness? I think a lot of people are like, no, I just don't want them to have a fit. I don't want them to be loud in public. And there's typically something deeper at play under that. And that's why we see iPad usage at home when there's nobody to disturb and they could be as loud as they wanted, and we still see it happening. So We've got to find a way to build our capacity to weather our children's discomfort. And I think the key to that is understanding that actually discomfort and boredom is really good for them and seeing it as an opportunity for them to develop lifelong skills that are going to make them happier, more well adjusted adults. It's that long game. It's really developing the perspective that this moment of discomfort or boredom is actually a gift for my child and an opportunity for them to develop what they need to live a happy life forever.
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C
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- [19:31]
B
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C
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B
you say we have a misconception about the length of their attention spans.
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C
Talk with that.
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A
Yeah. So there's at different ages in different developmental stages, children may look like they're like switching from thing to thing and that their attention can be caught by anything. But they're. That's actually really important. That inherent sort of curiosity and ability to be, you know, for their attention to be snared by something is also a sign that they're very much living in their body and connected to the world around them. It's actually if you see someone walking around, you know, staring at their, their cell phone and they didn't notice that someone could have, someone could have cartwheeled past them and they wouldn't have noticed. You know, that's actually a sign that we're not present right in our environment. So children's, the presence that they exhibit and the connection to their environment, to their bodily sensations, to what's going on around them is actually a really good thing. But it makes them sort of look like their attention is fleeting. And it's actually quite the opposite. We've all also seen a small child who's crouched down, like watching a ladybug. And they'll just watch that ladybug for so long as it progresses across the grass. And so their attention isn't fleeting, it's just doing what it needs to do for them to learn about the world around them. And when their attention is absorbed by a television show or by a game on a device, that's actually unnatural for what they need.
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B
It is interesting because when you talked about this story where your daughter is like playing with these blue cups on a flight for like hours, so you're like, you know, we just have misconception and it's unfair. You say children have a reputation for having the attention span of fruit flies. Not only is this unfair, it's untrue. So they could be truly absorbed in something and you don't have to be so freaked out necessarily about having 600 things with you. That said, you do give a lot of ideas about the elephants of surprise. Yes.
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A
My daughter thought that phrase was the elephant of surprise instead of the element of surprise. And yeah, that can be the, the novel factor is, is really powerful. So if you're going on a, you've got a plane or a road trip coming up, I make the suggestion of Going to the dollar store or a garage sale in your neighborhood don't have to spend a lot of money. But finding something your child has never seen before can really help captivate their attention when they're on the plane and they're getting maybe a little antsy. So novelty is really powerful.
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B
All right, the elephant of surprise. You say the original screen is the window. That'. That's how I grew up. I grew up with the original screen. The cheapest thing you can pack is your and your child's imagination. Okay. You talk about having a traveling mantra. So the book is called Look Up a Wild and Screen Freed Road Map to Enjoy and Travel with kids having a mantra because things do go wrong. So talk about your mantra. And then I would love it if you would tell us the no diaper story.
- [24:39]
A
Oh, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. So having a mantra can be really powerful. It can give us something to anchor to in those moments of, of challenge. And I really recommend that that mantra is based on our values because when we get out in the world and it's a high stress situation and we're in the, we're in the eyes of the public, some of our pro programming that we may not be aware of is going to come to bear. And so we're going to want to respond to a situation in a way that is maybe a little shortsighted. Like, just get this kid to be quiet because we're on the airplane. I don't want them to scream, yes, we want the child to be quiet. And is there a more values based approach? So some of the mantras can be, we are traveling so that my child can develop a sense of adventure. And adventure is messy and complicated and unexpected. And I'm helping my child develop the skills to deal with the unexpected and the unknown. So you can shorten it to just, I want my child to have the heart of an adventurer and that's why we're traveling. You can shorten it. You can have a mantra like connection is the most important thing. And in that moment when you want to bypass the opportunity to connect with your child and maybe ask them what's going on and help them help understand why they're about to like blow a gasket on an airplane, you know, instead of bypassing that opportunity to just be like, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, shush. Here's an iPad. Remembering that connection. Connection is the most important. This is a chance to connect with my child. So the. The diaper story. Yes. All parents know that any plan for parenting is Just an opportunity for the universe to go. Did you, did you plan for all the odds? Are you quite sure about that? So we, we were on a flight and I thought I had packed enough diapers for my daughter. And so we were nearing the end of the flight and it was just a tough, it was one of our early days. I was still getting to know, I was getting to know my daughter. She's my first child. And it was, you know, there were just some things that had, that had gone wrong as they do in the beginning of the day. And so we're reaching the end of the flight and I'm reaching the end of my rope and I noticed that my daughter needs her diaper changed. And so we, we go in and I'm got her diaper all changed. And no, she did not watch Louie or whatever from your story earlier. Yes, thankfully I did not get a bucking bronco of a diaper change kid like some of my friends. So she's laying there peacefully and I reach into the diaper bag for a diaper and it does not exist. There is no diaper. And I'm ripping it apart thinking there has to be another one. And ultimately, no, there's no diaper. So we sort of rigged like an old fashioned style cloth diaper on her and then we went back to her seat. And I just, I just remember thinking like, if, if I, if there was ever a time to, to pray for a result, it is now. Like, please, please, please, please, please, not a blowout. And we actually ended up landing and I was able to get reunited with our suitcase and get a diaper. But it was, it was one of those moments where I just had to remind myself like, we're gonna plan, we're gonna prepare the best we can. And sometimes your kid's gonna go through two airplane flights worth of diapers in one airplane fighting flight and gonna figure it out.
- [28:13]
B
Yeah. And you know, one of my favorite things that you wrote in the book was that, you know, like you said six years later, you know, or maybe not six years later, but like once you've been a mom for six years, you say, as a six year mom veteran, I would have done it different. I would have gone up and down the aisles and been like, who has a diaper? You know, and so I think I like that the story showed that first of all, you made it through. Like you said, if you don't, you, if you don't pack enough, you're gonna figure it out. And you know, you did figure it out. And you can over prepare and then relax. But in the moment, if something goes wrong, then, you know you're gonna figure it out, and then over time, you're gonna learn a different way.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like now I wouldn't bat an eye at if, you know, if I had a second child, I wouldn't bat an eye at finding every parent on that airplane and asking if they had a diaper and like, the size range that my daughter was in. But yeah, at the time, I think my thought was just, just, this is my kid, this is my responsibility. I have to figure it out. And so that's something I've learned along the way too, is that parent. There's this greater parenting community that we're all a part of. And I think that we fear a lot of judgment from other parents. That probably doesn't exist. Social media would have it. Have us believe it exists, but I don't really think it does. I think more often than not, we would want to help any other parents in public in any way we could, and that we're more often than not like, commiserating with that parent whose kid is screaming, not judging them. So I just think it's an important thing to mention that the. The realm of support among other parents is far greater than the realm of judgment.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And that's another topic then that you talk about in my book, which is societal messages. So first of all, there's a societal message that we should try and keep our kids quiet. Actually, I really like two, so let's talk about that one. But I also liked two, and I never thought about this before, but I was with a friend.
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C
Our youngest kid is nine.
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B
So I was with a friend the other day who has a one year old, which is so fun. Anyway, she's. Everything is a mess. You know, she's like eating her food, and there's like so much food on the floor. I was like, oh my gosh. You just forget, you know, but you had said it was something like, you know, if you ever. If you are in the back of a plane and you walk to the front, like, let's say your seat was near the back. If you really look, look, nobody ever really looks. He's just trying to get off as fast as possible. There's like trash everywhere. So you're like, adults are messy. Like, we have these expectations for our kids to not leave a mess. But then you're like, all these adults left a mess behind. So, you know, it's just interesting the ways that we put pressure on ourselves because we have a child, and we're not putting pressure on the adults to clean up after themselves, even though they come up and down the aisle so many times with those trash bags, and they're like, throw your stuff out. And you're like, people are still leaving garbage behind. So we're, like, expecting maybe our kids to be clean, and we're also expecting them to be quiet. Society tells us we are not capable of parenting without screen dependence. How can we push back against that message?
- [31:10]
A
I think the first and most important way to push back against that message is to remember that the only people who really matter are you and your child. I used to be in the catering business, and I worked a lot of weddings, and the brides and grooms would be running around trying to make everyone else happy. And I always tried to take an opportunity to say, this day is about the two of you. You. There are expectations that other people have, and those are their expectations. And if it's within your control to meet those expectations, great. But not when it comes to sacrificing what you want for this day. Well, likewise for parents. We all. I'm. Most of us, I think, dreamed of being parents. Some of us stumbled into it accidentally and embraced it. But when we dreamt about it, we had all these ideas about how we would be with our children. And then our children come along and they contribute who they are as people, and we find our way forward. But we can really be robbed of both the joy of parenting and we can also be held to standards that we never even agreed to if we start to put too much emphasis on the expectations and potential desires of others. And so anchoring back in into, like, this is me. This is my child. I always say, look at, like, where do you want your. Who do you want your child to be when they grow up? What do you want them to have available as skills and traits? And then how does that trickle back to your parenting? That's your. That's your North Star. That's the thing to cling to. And, yeah, if you can also raise a child who understands that them screaming at the top of their lungs in the middle of a restaurant bothers other people and hurts other people's ears. Absolutely. But not if you have to sacrifice, like I said earlier, like, your connection to them or not if you have to sacrifice making that a learning opportunity. I just. I think that. I think that every adult was a child, and the adults who are really disgruntled with children in public, that's. That's their journey.
- [33:08]
B
Yeah, it is interesting. I mean, it is very true generally that this has become a societal message. And interesting, like the societal messages are interesting because like in some cultures there, the message would enhance childhood or enhance health. So like I read a book how in France you're. They don't really snack and if you are in public and you give your child a bag of crackers, like people are going to be like, hey, you know, your kid's not gonna eat a good dinner. Like they get involved and this is kind of like almost like the opposite where it's not only is it like celebrated, but it's almost expected. And you would never be like, I mean, I've thought about it. I'm like, I am an old mom. I want to be like, excuse me, your 19 month old shouldn't be at Disneyland with an iPad or whatever, you know, but we don't do that here. And so there's this societal message that it's easy to have quiet, compliant kids. This is what you write there. It's called the iPad easy button. You say, we've definitely gotten the message from society that we can and should outsource to the iPad. And society tells us we are not capable of parenting without screen dependence and really that we're not capable of living without screen dependence ourselves.
- [34:20]
C
When I was a kid, my grandpa had a room where he took apart all sorts of electronics. Seeing all the parts everywhere is so exciting today, as a parent trying to raise kids in a world of screens, I think about how exciting hands on learning can be. It can feel exhausting trying to offer something more compelling than a device. That is why Kiwico has been such a gift. We chose one of their science and engineering crates and the project projects we build together turned our kitchen table into a mini innovation lab. There were moments of frustration and that's actually what I love most. My child had to think, adjust, try again. And when it finally clicked, pure pride. It felt different from other activities because it wasn't passive. It required creativity and persistence. And I didn't have to do research, source supplies or plan a thing. It just arrived at our door ready to go. Kiwico makes it easy to build skills over time. Robotics, engineering, art, techniques, all while kids are having fun. And there's no commitment. So you can pause or cancel anytime. We're already looking forward to our next crate. I love giving my kids opportunities to discover what they're capable of. And honestly, these make incredible gifts too. Tinker. Create and innovate with Kiwico. Get up to 50 off your first monthly crate at kiwico.com code 1000hours that's up to 50 off your first crate at k-I w I c o.com code 1000hours. Panda Crate is an exception. See site for details Every season I find myself wanting our home to breathe a little easier. Not a full renovation, just thoughtful updates that make the space work better for our real everyday life. That's why I love shopping at Wayfair. Our style leans warm and collected, a little modern, a little lived in. This spring we refreshed a few spaces lighter bedding, a couple accent pieces in the living room, and some outdoor furniture to make our patio feel feel like an actual gathering space instead of just yard furniture. Wayfair made it so easy to narrow things down by style, size, price and I always read the reviews. Thousands of 5 star reviews make it feel less like guessing and more like choosing confidently. I also love how many functional pieces they carry, storage solutions, shelving for work from home spaces, even options for assembly. If you don't want to DIY it, it feels seamless. From browsing to delivery, the pieces we ordered fit right into our rhythm. Beautiful but practical. And that's what I'm always after. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W a Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home the start of a new season always makes me look around and think, how can this house function better? Not fancier, just better. And honestly, Wayfair has become my go to when we're ready to level up a space without overspending, we tackled organization first, like closet systems, garage storage and shelving. For a work from home setup that was slowly being overtaken by stacks of books. Wayfair's filters make it incredibly easy to narrow by dimensions, finish and budget. I could compare pieces side by side, read reviews and feel confident before clicking order. Then we layered in a few lighter touches for spring, like updated bedding, simple decor, and a couple pieces for the patio so we're ready to be outside more. I love that you can find everything in one place, from big furniture upgrades to functional decor that actually solves a problem. Home delivery was fast, assembly was straightforward, and there are even options if you want installation handled for you. It just feels streamlined. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home that's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style, every home.
- [37:41]
B
I love that you had a section in here about how to. How do I amuse myself? So can you talk about some strategies to amuse yourself as an adult without a phone?
- [37:56]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So talking to other people. I know, foreign concept. And, and, and. And post Covid that changed. Like, I think we can all admit that our interactions in public are indelibly altered since then. And I think I personally believe we have to fight to get back to that level of comfort with making eye contact, engaging with strangers, you know, chatting with the checkout person at Sprouts. When you're, when you're getting your groceries, I just, I think it's really important to treat other humans like humans. That's not a robot, you know, packing up my groceries. Why don't I ask them how their day is and like, actually pause and take a second to listen. So engaging with other people, that's. That's a big one. You know, I'm outgoing. I realize that's not everyone's comfort level, but I, I feel it's at least important to engage with the people we see regularly. People maybe at school, pickup or drop off neighbors, et cetera. Another thing is a technique I actually learned to combat anxiety years ago, which is the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. It's five things you can see, four things you can hear. I always get the other ones mixed up. Three things you can touch or four things you can touch.
- [39:02]
B
All those, I'm sure you can't do it wrong.
- [39:04]
A
Right, right.
- [39:04]
B
If it goes in the other order, doesn't really matter.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. And so that, that helps me notice. It actually highlights for me all the things I was glossing over and not noticing. Right. Because I was. Was like so focused on what I was doing and I didn't notice. Oh, those flowers, you know, stop and smell. The roses is often associated with children, but I think as adults, that can be a really grounding activity. Another way is to just leave the device behind. So the pull of that device in our purse or our back pocket is so powerful because, of course, they're designed by people who use neuroscience to create something that's completely addictive. It's really exhausting and it weakens like our resolve solve across our lives if we have to waste our energy resisting the device. But man, if you just leave it in the car or you just gasp, leave it at home, or you put it in another room, or you, you know, like, I have this ro box and I'll put it in there. And it's amazing how often I forget that I had a cell phone because it's not right in front of me. So I think it's really unfair to just require ourselves to use willpower constantly to set device boundaries when it can be as something as simple and as easy as just not having it handy, conveniently accessible, or with us at all.
- [40:21]
B
There was also the idea to organize your purse. Yes, great idea. Generally, you know, it just made me think about, like when I was younger, I think I organized my purse a lot. You know, I never do it now, but you know, when you're young and you're like, you know, let's say you're like not super young, like 17, I'm sitting at church goodness in my board, you know, and you kind of just start to go through at first and they're like with I got extra garbage or whatever. I mean, there's just different things that you can do. And I just love that you included that in the book that you can amuse your own self. Here's how you do it. Yep. Because we all, we all need a little bit of instruction. You are particular about using the phraseology screen freed. So the extra D matters. So can you talk about. And that's. That's in the subtitle of the book, A Wild and Screen Free Roadmap to Enjoying Travel with kids. Can you talk about the difference between screen free and screen freed?
- [41:17]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So screen free can fit inside of screen freed. So you can be screen. Your child can be screen free either for a particular amount of time their lives, like maybe 0 to 2, or in certain boundaried settings. You have maybe your screen free during meals or your screen free during travel. Travel. And that's fine. Screen freed is a mindset, and the mindset is one of being willing to constantly or regularly assess the role of screens in your life and maybe your children's lives and evaluate. Are we using this as a tool as. As a tool to maybe stay in touch with family or play learning games or whatever, you've chosen the. The role of technology as a tool in your life, or are we using it as a crutch? And if it's being used as a crutch, when you're screen freed, you sort of dig underneath that and you see, okay, what's at play here? Am I overwhelmed across my life and I'm looking for an out like we talked about earlier. Am I uncomfortable with my child being bored? Do I believe children should constantly be entertained or enriched as it has Been rebranded. Oh, they're doing enriching things like. No, let's be clear. We don't, we just don't want them doing nothing because they're going to get into something or make a mess. Mess. Well, there's value to them getting into something or making a mess. So being screen freed is the perspective of we're going to consciously and deliberately choose the role that screens play in our family's lives. And we understand and are agreeing that that role might change moment to moment. It might change based on our children's age, it might change based on a season of our family's lives. But however it changes, we're going to approach it with deliberation and we're always going to be willing to, to reassess if it's working for us. And that's really the question, like, is this working for us? It may oftentimes it seems like screens are working in the moment because they're producing a quiet, compliant child. But is it working for that child long term? Are you looking at that child's overall behavior, relationship to screens, expectations around screens? What happens when you take that screen away? What happens when you say no to screen usage? Is there a big response? Okay, then it, maybe it's not working for you. So I was screen free. My daughter was screen free until she wasn't. Just like everything in parenting, it works until it doesn't. And when she wasn't screen free anymore, instead of choosing that deliberately, I, I felt pressured into it in a moment and then I guilted myself about it for a long time afterward. And that's, that's the opposite of screen freed. So screen. If I had been screen freed instead of screen free, I would have been able to say to myself, hey, you did the best you could in that moment. It, and in the future, maybe you'll choose differently. That would be like one facet of being screen freed. And that's the mindset I had to cultivate was one of flexibility and responsibility.
- [44:17]
B
Yeah. And like not feeling like, oh, I'm ashamed that this happened and now I'm just going to give up all my ideals and dreams because things happen. I remember, I remember before I was a mom, I was at church and, and there was this other mom there and her daughter was one, she just turned one and the church had like muffins, I don't know, like sometimes there's muffins, I guess. And it was like the little someone had given the one year old this poppy seed muffin and the mom was like, oh, this is the first time she's had hydrogenated oil. And I was like, huh? Like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, I don't even know what hydrogenated oil is. But it was just. It was interesting to me. And so it's kind of like that. It's like, well, I'm sure she didn't just start feeding her tons of muffins with hydrogenated oil. Have him once, you know, and then you kind of assess and move on. So you had a story in the book about it. And I, you know, I feel like I like the screen. I like the screen freed wording. It's like you're just not bound to it. And you can make your choices based
- [45:21]
C
off of where you're at today, even
- [45:22]
B
if they're different than what they were tomorrow. And even if, like you said, things change day to day. So. Yeah. And. And in line with that, you say, if you want your kid to be. If you want to have more screen freedom in your life, then what you're gonna have to do is care more about what's best for your child and what then. What's best for the public. You brought this up earlier, but I. I do think it would. I would love to dive just, like, slightly deeper on it because you're like, what's really happening here is that. That we are more concerned. You said earlier, you're like, if someone else is annoyed, you know, and everyone has those moments where, like, you get on a plane and you're like, oh, there's the baby, and they're probably gonna cry. You're like, it's really not that big of a deal. Like, also, they sell noise canceling headphones, like, even more so than it would have been, you know, like, generations ago. Like, they hand out often free year, year, but you could buy whatever, something for over your years. So you're basically like, what we're doing is we're just catering to adults over children. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, the phrasing that you use is that we're more concerned as a society about, like, the comfort of adults over the existence of children. Yeah, that might have been a little too much like. Or the comfort of adults over children in. In spaces where there are other adults.
- [46:48]
A
Yeah. So I think it's important to acknowledge that kids are in shared spaces with adults, probably more than they were even. I'm a millennial, even when I was a kid. So millennials, as parents, we. We eat out more than older generations. We travel more than older generations. We actually see travel as like a part of lifestyle. Our lifestyles and who and our identities, as I mentioned in my book, more than just something that you do. So, so I want to acknowledge there are just more kids on planes and in restaurants than there ever were before. So it is possible that we're grappling with a slightly different environment than prior generations were and we're sharing that environment with prior generations who aren't used to children being in those spaces. So that, let's just name that that exists. But we're. And I'm not a free for all parent where it's like my kids here, just deal with her look, I sigh too. When someone's kid is crying on an airplane. I don't love to listen to it either. Are not impervious to it. But we're, we're forgetting as a society that children need these experiences in order to learn how to navigate them. So if they eat at home seven nights a week, they're never going to learn what it's like to have manners at a table in a restaurant with TVs on and people walking past and oh, they can't just get up and run around. We have, they have to have these experiences in order to develop the appropriate behaviors in public. Public. So while they're having those experiences, if we, you know, either stifle them by shushing them immediately and not helping them understand why, or if we give them an iPad, then they never develop those skills. And so you're right, we have to prioritize the development of those skills for our children. And also, let's just call it the connection between our family in these experiences in restaurants, in Disneyland, on the airplanes. We have to prioritize that, that over being seen as awesome parents, being seen as excellent parents. And I think there's some of that at play, right? We want people to see us as, oh, look at that parent with those amazing, compliant, quiet children. Like sometimes that's a factor for people and that feels good. And it feels kind of bad to be the parent with the screaming kid. And it's not the end of the world. And that screaming kid has an opportunity to learn something different.
- [49:05]
B
Different. Isn't it interesting? It's like the societal messages really just benefits the, the people who work at Apple. I mean, truly like it is, if it's a societal message that you should be kind of quieting your kid down, why can't you just hand them your phone? You're like, well, who benefits from that? The people who sell those you know and who sell the apps. And so you wrote, adults have had decades to practice emotional regulation, patience, and empathy. Why are we coddling them? It's hard to prioritize the most capable creatures instead of the least capable. And that's a good point. This kind of goes in line with, I guess it also, a societal message is an interesting one, that parenting should be easier than it actually is. And you're like, no, parenting is hard. And if we have that as our sort of. Of, like, world understanding that we live in, which is that this is hard, then maybe we won't turn so quickly to screens. I mean, I guess I think a lot of products are like, Even the. There's like a baby one. Let's see. All this stuff came along after I had babies. But, like, you know, you put them in. It's called, like, Mama Rue. That's wrong. Anyway, it's like a thousand dollars. There's $2,000.
- [50:24]
C
And it's like a womb.
- [50:26]
B
And it will. It bounces. And there's. All these things have Bluetooth. So you kind of are like getting this impression that, like, I can have this job, then just put them in that, you know, I'm just going to give them the screen. Sometimes they say even, like, the bouncy seats will have, like, a spot where you can insert a screen. Yeah. So you're like, no, instead just have the outlook. This is hard.
- [50:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's. We're setting ourselves up for needing again, going back to that, like, I need this device. Yeah, I will. I would believe that I needed a device if I expected parenting to be easy. And then I had a kid. And, you know, we all have expectations before we have kids that alter when. When we become parents. Right. That's the big joke of the parent you think you'll be versus the parent you are. But if we can go into parenting saying to ourselves, I am molding a. A human being's future, not only is this hard, but it's an incredible and immense responsibility, and it's really, really important. And I don't think any of us would take on a really important, difficult, immense job and walk in like chewing bubblegum thinking, this is going to be easy as pie. No. We would prep as much as we could in advance. We would put ourselves in situations to achieve, like receive mentorship and support from people who are ahead of us on that track. We would, you know, along the way, as things came up that we didn't know how to do, we would. We would read books, we would seek out Podcasts, we would look for experts to show us the way. You know, we would treat it as if it was a huge undertaking. And we have to remember that that's what parenting is. This is a colossal, beautiful, chaotic, challenging endeavor that we have undertaken to get to walk beside these little humans until they become big humans. And it's not easy. It's not always hard, but it's definitely holistically not easy. And if we're seeking to make it easy, that's how we're going to fall into the trap of things like yes, the little baby bouncers or the, the cart covers that have the built in phone holder.
- [52:36]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [52:37]
A
Kills me.
- [52:38]
B
Oh, how far we have fallen. I know you wrote parents who want to make parenting easy are more likely to make choices that get them what they want in the moment, but don't necessarily contribute to their long term goals or values. Values. Enter the iPad. Easy button. Okay, let's wrap it up here and you talk about. Although I will tell a quick story. No, I won't. Yes, I will. I don't know, it's a funny story. It's not even my story, but it's in an Andy Wilson book. And I just thought it was funny because you talked about how in this day and age, like kids are out in public more with their parents, but I don't think it's so true. In Europe and sometimes people listening from Europe. I don't know if this is true or not, but Andy Wilson wrote this book and I can't remember which book it's even in, but he was talking about how they went to Europe with the kids family and his brother's family or something. It's a bunch of cousins. It was eight kids and I think it's like a lot of kids. And so he said they went to this restaurant and they just like, they're not used to that. So they go with these eight kids and because they're not used to having kids in the restaurant, they gave out full size stuffed animals. Like not like some little rink eating thing. He said it was like a full size stuffed moose. And there were so many kids that they had to go back in the back and like go into the, their stash of mooses because they didn't have enough for all these eight kids. And then he said I was like such a funny story that they, they just, they just were a total mess. He's like one kid started throwing up, ate too many sausages. He's like, they're just puking. These kids are so loud. And so he basically said, we took our mooses and we ran because people were so affected by it. But it is a good thing. I think it is a good thing when kids are out in public, because don't we all need to work on our emotional regulation? It's fun to interact with kids, and I think, you know, that's kind of entertaining. So I think it's a good thing. The more kids are in these shared spaces with adults, the better. Let's wrap it up here. You talk about. So we've talked a lot about the actual travel part, which you're like, this is part of the fun too, is the journey to the destination. But then you also talk about while you're there, that travel is amplified. With kiddos, the magic of travel is amplified. It's also hard, too. And so you're basically like, build yourself some buffer. So slower days, more naps, more sitting around. You're not going to probably see everything that you would have seen if it was just you. So can you just talk about aligning expectations to the child's development?
- [55:04]
A
Sure, yeah. So you touched on it. But the nap time alone, you know, when, when I was in France, my daughter was. Was nine months old, and she could do one of her naps on the go kind of in the little, like, pack that we carried her in. But she needed one of those naps to be just more calm and quiet. And so we would go back to the Airbnb every afternoon and she would rest. And I, I found that I had more stamina for the travel. And I had never, ever taken a nap myself on a trip. And that was the first time I did that was like, okay, this is actually great. Like, can we build this into travel in the future? Because I had experienced before just this, like, rabid desire to soak up every second. And I would come back from a trip more tired than when I left. And so that was a. That was an adjustment to the pace. I think also, we sort of in line with that mentality we have of that children need to constantly be switching. And if they lose interest in something, we've got to have a backup thing to give them interest in, you know, remembering that, that we don't need to do back to back sightseeing. And in fact, back to back sightseeing is probably going to result in everyone being cranky and tired. So where is the opportunity to build in just some quiet time in a park or a, you know, a really slow, long lunch where everybody can sit still and just decompress so yeah, set those expectations and then let the travel inform those expectations. All kids are going to react to it differently and some of them, them might be really like, have the stamina for it and be excited to go, go, go. And other kids are going to, you know, really be overwhelmed by all the additional stimuli and are going to need some downtime with you and some like close connection with their, with you as their parent. So they'll, they'll let us know.
- [56:53]
B
Yeah. And you talk about like, then it's a different pace and you might experience things at a deeper level or different level than you would have otherwise. You talk about 1000 hours outside in this one. Look up and just about getting outdoors. And that helps, helps everyone be emotionally regulated and more easygoing. I think vacations and travel are a great way to get in extra outdoor time. And you also talk about balance and barefoot in this book too. So I thought that was super fun to find. The book is called Look Up a Wild and Screen Freed Roadmap to Enjoying Travel with Kids. You also have a Facebook group and Instagram and a website. Tell us where people can find you.
- [57:26]
A
Sure. So they can go onto Facebook and search Wild and Screen Freed families. And that is a group where we trade, you know, travel horror stories for commiseration and laughs as well as just tips products that are working for us, places we've gone, perspective, all of that. So you can just go be with families who are ex. Both exploring the world and exploring being screen freed. So really attempting to limit, working to limit that. That the reliance on devices while traveling. And then Facebook, it's just screenfreed revolution. On Facebook I have lots of short videos with little insights, tips, tools, shared stories. Um, I'm very open in the book and on Instagram about like the real deal, how it really looks for us. And sometimes it's messy as heck and sometimes it's awesome. So all of that's on there. And then screenfreedrevolution.com is my website you can sign, people can sign up for the newsletter there. And I send out out infrequent newsletters with just stories from my experience and tips and tools and amazing books. I wrote, I wrote to everyone about your book several times after it was out. Yes. And. And then there's also. They can, they can buy the book on my website. They can always buy it on Amazon if they want to. But I of course encourage them to buy it from my website. It keeps Jeff Bezos out of the picture and it supports an indie writer. So.
- [58:48]
B
So I Love it. All right. The book is called Look Up, Look Up A Wild and screen freed Road map to enjoying travel with Kids. Generally, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood?
- [58:59]
C
That was outside.
- [59:00]
A
Ooh, Canyonlands. My family and I went camping in Canyonlands. My dad got up kind of early, nobody else was up. And I woke up and snuck out and followed him and he went and climbed on these big tall standy sandstone red rocks and I climbed up there with him and I remember standing up there with him just feeling like I was on top of the world and I felt so proud that I could climb up after him in my little like nine year old body. And I just, I, I remember feeling like I wish that we could like I wish we could be here all the time, be away from all the hustle and bustle and just be in these moments of peace piece in, in this very. If you haven't been to Stan can or to Canyonlands, it's an Arches National Park. It's very interesting. Rock shapes like you wouldn't see anything like that anywhere else. And I got to take my daughter LP there a couple years ago and it was really special. We found almost the exact same camping spot and climbed that rock and stood up there together. So it's a very much
- [60:03]
B
circle moment. How cool is that? That, that's interesting because it's like, you know, your kids can't have a full circle moment unless you adventure with them. You know, you have to have that first pass through what an adventure with your dad. That's really special memory. We've been to Canyonlands and Arches and it's just, I mean it's mind blowing. It's like wow, how different. Like we're from Michigan. You're like, what is this? It's so cool.
- [60:24]
A
It really looks like alien, like an alien land got transplanted.
- [60:27]
B
Yeah. And like the color of everything and the shapes. It's so cool. Generally, what an honor to get a chance to talk to you. This is very inspiring what you're doing. It's not only the travel, the travel is one piece and I think, you know, I think we do need to be more encouraged, you know, encouraged to travel with kids and, and get out and see the world, you know, to the best of our abilities. But then to add on the screen free and element is, is really unique. So I think it'll give people a lot to, to think about and a lot to consider. Heading into the spring and summer with travel on the horizon. Jenna Lee, thanks for being here.
- [60:57]
A
Thank you so much for having me. Me.
- [61:03]
B
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D
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B
How quick?
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D
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