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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 752: When Life Feels Like a Never Ending Plod | Ginny Owens, Singing in the Dark
00:52:50
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- [00:01]
Podcast Advertiser
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Podcast Host
welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
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Jenny Urch
My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I've been so excited for today. Someone is here that I've been a fan of since I was, like, probably a teenager or in my early 20s. And also we have the same name, Jenny Owens. Welcome.
- [00:43]
Ginny Owens
Thank you. Thanks for having the same name. I never get to talk to anybody that has my name, so. Or I have your name, however you want to think of that.
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Jenny Urch
We have the same name. Short for Virginia. Both of us.
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Ginny Owens
Yes, yes, yes.
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Jenny Urch
I was named after my grandma.
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Ginny Owens
Oh, well, I'm not sure who I was named after. My parents just thought it was a cool southern name. So they. They named me Virginia Lee with L, E, I, G, H. So it's all. I don't know.
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Jenny Urch
I love it. I'm Virginia Lynn. We're so close.
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Ginny Owens
Oh, we're so close. Oh, my gosh.
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Jenny Urch
So great. I love it. So, Jenny, I've been a fan. I mean, I've known of your music since. I mean, we. I, like, grew up in the Michael W. Smith era and all of that, and so I've been a fan of your music for a long time. I got your book to get ready for this podcast because I was so excited to get a chance to talk with you. And your book is called Singing in the Dark, Finding Hope in the Songs of Scripture. And I got the book and I didn't know that you were blind.
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Ginny Owens
What? That's so cool.
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Jenny Urch
This whole time I learned from the book and the book has got braille on the front of it. And I've had an incredible time with my youngest daughter going through your YouTube channel. And you have this whole part about what, you know, how you. How do you deal with your clothing. Yeah, it's a How I See it video series. So, you know, how do you navigate through a new space? How do you pick out your clothing? How do you figure out what's in your grocery bag? And so I love going down that rabbit hole. And I love this book. It's one of my favorite I've ever read. I've already recommended it to so many people. Singing in the dark. It's really about like when your circumstances don't change. And I thought, gosh, what a premise. So I would love if you just give a little bit of introduction of your story. You lost your sight when you were young, but it was not that great even leading up to that. And then you become this incredible musician. And as of today, you've got new songs coming out tomorrow and a new journal and just lots going on. I mean, I don't know. That's too open ended of a question, isn't it, Jenny?
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Ginny Owens
No, it's. It's great. I love it. And I will say to your point about just not knowing that I was blind, one of the things that I started to realize because I really never wanted my lack of sight, vision, whatever you want to call it, to define me. And so for many years of my career as an artist, I did not talk about my blindness. I mean it was, I wasn't scared of it. I just like kind of purposely didn't mention it. And then I began to realize, oh, people actually have questions. I think there were a couple times that I would mention how I do something and then just realized that people really were curious. And so we started releasing those How I see it videos and, and you know, people would come up and be like, oh, I finally know how I should be walking with you, or I know how I should walk with my blind friend. And I've never known before just things like that that really inspired me to keep creating new videos to kind of tell the story of what it's like to be blind. So it really wasn't until later in my career that I figured out, oh man, it's okay to actually talk about the fact that I can't see as well. So. So thanks for watching those. That's really cool.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, they're great.
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Ginny Owens
Thank you. But I did lose my eyesight when I was about three years old. I was born, as you said, with pretty poor eyesight to begin with. Hereditary conditions inherited from my dad's side of the family, and then had limited vision, had enough vision to learn my colors and learn the faces of my favorite people and. And then when I was 3, I went in for a surgery that the doctor probably shouldn't have done a cryotherapy treatment and lost all of my sight from there. So went in being able to see lots of things and came out seeing nothing. But my family was great about just saying, well, you're just gonna adapt. And I did adapt and was back outside playing the next week. And I think our poor neighbors were completely freaked out. And they would always, you know, they would call my mom, say, should I call the fire department? Jenny's in the tree again. And, you know, they would always, mom would always say, no, this is her life, she's gonna have to learn to live it. So she was great about just letting me, you know, climb and, you know, find my way around the neighborhood without being able to see and ride my bike and all those things that all the other kids were doing. And I did fall in love with music at quite a young age. In fact, I don't ever remember not being in love with music. It's just, just always been something that I've loved. And started writing, well, started playing piano when I was three. So about the time I lost my sight, we had an old upright, out of tune piano that lived in the back of our dining room. And I just loved to sit and just pound on it and play the songs that I was hearing at church or at preschool. And so that was when I started to fall in love with music.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, and what a career you've had. And it's had its ups and downs, for sure. You talk about, you know, that you're thinking you're going to go into education and you go in for these interviews and they just cannot, you know, they can't, I guess, see past, what would this look like? You know, what is it going to be like for you to be up in front of a group of students? And so a lot of times you didn't get a fair shot. Can you talk about what happens then? You know, you, you say, I mean, it's kind of wild. I think people would ask how, you know, we're trying to get our kids outside and a lot of people are scared. You know, they're scared to even let their kid ride around the block. In general, they're scared to let their kids climb trees. And you say, as a young child, being blind never slowed me down. I rode my bike all over the neighborhood and competed with my friends on the block to be the highest tree climber.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah.
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Jenny Urch
Can you how, like, how talk about riding your bike when you can't see?
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Ginny Owens
Well, I think now, looking back on it, I think that I had like some, some sighted memory or some memory from when I could see. Yeah, so, like there were some spatial things that were still there. So I, I think I knew how to, you know, drive around the corners pretty well. And I, I used my ears very, you know, I learned very early on to really rely on my ears. And list, listen for cars coming and always stay, you know, close to the side of the road as well. So, you know, learned, though I was always very careful. My mom always said that I wasn't the kid she had to worry about. She had to worry about my sighted brother because I knew that I needed to be careful. So. But I do think there was some memory of just how the streets looked. And because I do remember, maybe by the time I rode my bike and I would roller skate until I was maybe 8 or 9, then I feel like some of that memory started to fade. And so I wasn't quite as comfortable riding my bike anymore. So kind of gave up, gave that up, but. But still just enjoyed, you know, I just learned you could do anything if you were careful. So you could climb the trees and roller skate down the steep driveways and, you know, whatever, as long as you were just careful. And, you know, you know, I think instinctively kids just learn to be safe. You know, they sort of figure those things out for themselves. Like, I don't want to hurt my head, so I'm going to be really careful here.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. So you had this vibrant childhood. You know, you're playing outside. You kind of, you know, you have this procedure done that you said, like you said, but you just kind of get back to being a kid. But in the book Singing in the Dark, you do talk about how then once you got to school, this became a bigger deal because of the way that the other kids treated you. And you talked about how, you know, your fearlessness turned into sadness. Can you talk about the sort of unique bullying that happened when you were younger and how that, I mean, that would affect you so deeply?
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Ginny Owens
Yeah. You know, I think. I'm not even sure it was unique bullying. Right. Because middle school is just the worst for every kid.
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Podcast Host
Yeah.
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Ginny Owens
But I think what was so hard was always being the odd person out and, you know, always feeling like the kids kind of needed someone to pick on, or that's just kind of the way you are in middle school. I think it's your hormones and your chemicals and all of that. And so there was a lot of, you know, how many. How many fingers am I holding up? And there was a lot of just, you know, name calling or just kids would come and grab my lunchbox when I was eating my lunch, and just things like that that just were exceptionally cold and cruel. And so, you know, I think over time I gained perspective and I realized I probably wasn't the only one facing that. But at the time, it was really Hard. It was a very, very difficult and lonely time. And my mom, you know, really encouraged me to lean into my faith. I had grown up a Christian with. With going to church and with strong faith. And so she would. She would always say, just, you know, Jesus is always your best friend. You know, he went through the worst darkness and so he knows what that feels like. And he did that for you, so you can tell him everything. So that was, at the time that she said that, I think, you know, I really was like, well, that's fine, but I want more friends. But I think over time you just realize that the. How true that absolutely is. And so that, that was a. That was really key to just my. My growing up and understanding how my faith and my relationship with God played into everything.
- [10:24]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, you talk about in this book. So the book is called Singing in the Dark. And then you also have a new mini album that's out by the time people listen to this. It's called Different Kind of Water. And there's also a journal that people and you can. Will definitely explain that and I'll put links to where people can find that. So a lot of new music that's coming out, which is so exciting. But in this book, Singing in the Dark, you relate that sort of childhood time at school to having it be this sort of one thing. Like, if this one thing could change, then it would change everything else. And you. So I just think this is such a powerful book, Ginny, because sometimes we read books and they're all about, like, how you can fix things. Things.
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Ginny Owens
Yes.
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Jenny Urch
But this is a book about when you're in difficult, unchangeable circumstances. And I've not really read one like it and I just loved it. I have nine pages of notes, which is close to the top of the pages of notes.
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Podcast Host
I ever write about a book because
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Jenny Urch
there was so many good things in here. You wrote. I realized sometime during elementary school that my circumstances would not change. And from then on, the desire to belong became center stage. It became the one thing I thought I had to have to be happy. But you say when we don't have the one thing we think will make everything better, we're not content with anything. So can you talk about how that played into your music career? Because, you know, you go to school, you're going to maybe do teaching, but, like, that doesn't work out. You play some songs for your students and they really like the songs that you've written into. You end up becoming this musician that tours and it doesn't really Fulfill you. And also almost can become like a rat race unto its own.
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Ginny Owens
Absolutely, yes. Yeah. I think that's the thing when. When. When we are looking for things on this planet to satisfy us and when we are sort of the generator of our satisfaction. Even though I know that's what our culture says, I think it just. It never really works out, you know, if I'm the master of my destiny, it is a heavy burden. And so one of the things I began to learn, I kind of got smart after middle school and just realized I needed to find ways to be likable and ways to sort of be the person in the room that did things other people couldn't or didn't do. So I became a much better listener and asked questions and wanted to know how my friends, what their lives were like. So, you know, I was sort of the resident high school counselor during high school. And, you know, some of that was because I love my friends, and some of that was because it helped me belong. It helped me to be liked. But I also found as I was pretty shy. I started writing songs when I was 7, but I rarely played them for people. Yeah, they were. They were pretty cheesy, but fun. You gotta start somewhere with everything. So I remember that as I began to play some of my songs for folks during my high school days, that people could really relate. Like they were going through those same things. And so, you know, I wasn't the lone, you know, ranger, the lone teenager experiencing all the things that teenagers experienced, all the angst and misunderstanding, like everyone was feeling that. And so I realized that I could relate to people through music. And instead of sort of seeing that as an absolute gift, I really just sort of made it my everything and sort of put it in the center of life. And so it just became so important to write songs that people could relate to. And, you know, that lasted for several albums as I. As I found myself with a record deal and actually working with a label owned by Michael W. Smith, who some. Some of your listeners may have heard of. Yep, yep. And just. It was such a blast. But I also just became really enslaved to the work and just. I was always going. I wasn't here for days of rest, really, with friends, you know, or just time with my family or faith community. I was just gone all the time and just. Was always, you know, really, really just enslaved to the work. So I. That led to burnout and that led to me just realizing I needed to re. Evaluate my priorities. Like music was only gonna work if it wasn't the center of my life. You know, I had to actually live too. So, yeah, that was a huge, huge lesson that I continue to learn because I love music so much that it's easy to, to make it very, very important.
- [15:10]
Jenny Urch
Sure. I mean, I think this is something that so many people will relate with that. This as well as being a ministry and a talent that God has given you, it also is a key to belonging. And you said suddenly my goal of belonging seemed within reach. And you talk about how that then you can become hyper focused on it. And as things went well, you start to consult God less and less. You're drinking from the fire hose of activity and then like you said, it comes at a cost and there's, there's burnout there. So it just goes to show that sometimes when we're chasing after certain things to fill voids.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah.
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Jenny Urch
Because we think it will make it better. It just doesn't. So that's a powerful lesson to learn in the book.
- [15:56]
Podcast Host
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- [19:51]
Jenny Urch
you also talk in this book called Singing in the Dark. Another super relatable thing is when life feels like a never ending plod. And I didn't know Ginny, like, I've not really thought too much about Moses and that sort of interim time you talk about he, how he was a
- [20:08]
Podcast Host
shepherd, so he had to.
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Jenny Urch
He fled and he was a shepherd. I didn't realize that he was a
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Podcast Host
shepherd for 40 years.
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Ginny Owens
Forty years, yes. And I heard somebody point out once that the Hebrew word for shepherding there, when it talks about him tending the flocks, the verb, it's like he was shepherding and shepherding and shepherding and shepherding. You know, it's like endless shepherding. Who wants to be doing that? Especially like when you've been trained, you know, in royal lanes, like you, you know, you've got, you've had the finest of the finest. You've had exceptional, you know, education, and you've had the finest food and all the greatest clothes and all the things, and now you're shepherding and shepherding.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. So you wrote. Can you imagine the utter dullness the man prepared for power as a prince presided not over people or governmental matters, but over sheep. You relate this to your own life where you're in these seasons of like, not, you know, quite knowing which direction to go with your music and feedback that you're getting. What advice do you have for someone? And a lot of moms listen in so they may feel like they're in the never ending plot. What advice do you have for someone who feels like they're in that situation?
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Ginny Owens
Well, hold on. But I think just knowing that, you know, God really wants to meet us in the plot. So maybe whether you're someone who believes in God or not, I would say there are always beautiful ways to find peace in your plod, especially reaching to others, like having friends that are walking with you through your plot and family and finding fun ways to just walk through that time, like things that bring you joy. Because honestly, if we can find joy in our plod, we can find joy anywhere, right? I mean, if we can get through the plaid. And so I think. And I think so. So leaning on others to sort of like, not go it alone and sort of have camaraderie in your plaid, Especially for moms, I feel like that's so important. But then I also think just finding ways to just rest and just kind of take things as they come. I think one of the things that we get so overwhelmed with, and you can tell me if you've had this experience, but sometimes I think the plot is harder because we're like. The plot just never ends, you know, so we get anxious because we can't, like, because we're just still doing the same thing. We're still changing diapers, or we're still driving, you know, everyone to soccer practice, or we're in the carpool lane every day, and, like, it just feels like it's over and over. But I do think our anxiety for just like, oh, no, is this ever gonna end? That really contributes to the heaviness of a season like that. So I think it's. It's, you know, really kind of easing, taking it easy, and, you know, finding hope in that season by not only leaning to others, but just finding ways that we can relax, finding ways that we can have peace. You know, like, what can we celebrate today in the midst of the plot? I feel like that's so helpful.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, I agree. Because you never know how long it's gonna end. And, you know, you do talk about how that, you know, for Moses, it ended after 40 years in. In quite a dramatic fashion, right? Where he's just out hanging with sheep, and now he's got to go back to these people, and he doesn't feel like he's speaks well. But you wrote in this book, the Lord's plan looked nothing like mine. And then you have. You try and accept what's going on, but at the same time, you say, you can lament, weep, and ask why, but. But you just don't know what's. What you're being prepared for. Moses had no idea he was preparing for a life that would leave a legacy. It was in the dullness, in the plotting that he became the man of God. His story encourages us that plotting down a path that feels mundane might be the most glorious choice we can make. Jenny, this is such a good book. I don't know if you were expecting that we were even going to talk about it.
- [24:21]
Ginny Owens
No, I love it. It's so fun to. Thank you. It's so fun to talk about it. And, yeah, I do think one of the most beautiful things of knowing God and trusting God is that the plot always has purpose. Right? Like, just period, like, that's what he Says like, I didn't make it up. It always has purpose. We may not know that purpose on planet Earth, but we probably will. We'll probably know something about why this plot, why we were on the plotting path for longer than we want it to be. So.
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Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. So the book's talking about the plot. If you feel like you're in that spot. It's talking about when you have these kind of longings, maybe they stand back from childhood and you're trying to fulfill them in certain ways that aren't working. It's talking about when you're in a spot where the situation is not going to change. And then you also talk about, which I think this is such a critical topic, but I don't think it's brought up a lot. You talk about in the book how sometimes the evils of the world or even the evils stemming from other people's actions can unfairly fall on us. So you give the example of Uriah. I've never really thought about that. Like David is such like the hero in the Bible, right?
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Ginny Owens
Yeah.
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Jenny Urch
But then his actions also cause an innocent man to lose his life.
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Ginny Owens
Right.
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Jenny Urch
His wife and his life.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah.
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Jenny Urch
So can you talk about. I guess that's in there. But then you really focus on Leah.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah.
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Jenny Urch
And I've never looked at that from that perspective either. Ginny. About how like because her dad and the husband Jacob, because they were kind of self centered, she ended up in
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Podcast Host
a really sad spot.
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Ginny Owens
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think because we're human beings living in the world, we're broken human beings living in the world with other broken human beings.
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Podcast Host
Yeah.
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Ginny Owens
So we are all going to be victims and probably we're all going to make other people victims in some way. I mean, we're gonna fall prey to heavy things, to hard things that happen. And probably even sometimes, you know, without meaning to, probably often without meaning to, we're gonna bring hardship on others. So I do think that is just part of life. And so I think it's just one of those things that is really important to think about and to consider. Like, yes, things are heavy because we're living here with, with other folks who are, you know, we're all broken together. And so, you know, how are we gonna, how are we gonna walk through it? How are we gonna walk through it with hope? And so I really just try to kind of face, face those things head on and, and just simply say that, that, you know, it is, you know, these are lamentable struggles that we're all gonna go through. And it's good to just. It's good to get it out. It's good to lament our way through it and to just talk about what's unfair and to work ourselves through to forgiveness. I mean, that's really where we want to go. So I think for me, I'm the type of person that can sometimes deny it and say, well, it really wasn't that bad. Or I can kind of have this bitterness that festers and grows and just. I keep getting madder and madder as I think of a particular situation. And so just pushing through to forgiveness, pushing through to just say, you know, how do I reach to this person who has hurt me in love? Or how do I. Maybe they're not safe and I shouldn't do that, but how do I give it to God and trust him in a way that will and that he can free me, you know, with his help to forgive and to let go.
- [28:05]
Jenny Urch
For people who aren't familiar with this story, can you explain? So the. The wording you have here is Laban. This is the dad, Laban and Jacob. And Jacob becomes a husband. Laban and Jacob's dogged determination to get what they want, no matter what, had a lasting impact on their family. And the first person it wreaked havoc on was Leah. She becomes the unloved and unwanted wife and daughter hopelessly trapped in this web of chaos caused by others. I never considered Jenny. So you write about this in the book. So, like, she gets switched out for her sister.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah, it's like a soap opera. Right?
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Jenny Urch
It's not even her wedding. I actually never had really thought that through.
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Ginny Owens
Yeah. Yeah. So. And I mean, who knows if she agreed to it or not, but essentially we're told Jacob, you know, Jacob has deceived his. His brother and then received what should have been his brother's. So then he has to run off because his brother's ready to kill him. I mean, it really is like some kind of a movie drama. So he runs off to his. His mother's family, his uncle Laban, and he. The first person he meets is Rachel. And Rachel is Laban's daughter. And Rachel is beautiful. That's pretty much what we get. And so he's like, okay, I want to marry her. And so he agrees to work for Laban, his uncle, for seven years to get to marry Rachel. And the day of the wedding, Rachel is switched out for Leah. And so because she's veiled, and of course, I'm sure they're drinking and whatever else they're doing at their day long wedding celebration or maybe multi day wedding celebration. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't realize it. So after the night is over, he wakes up and realizes he's been duped and he is married to Leah. And we're also told, I should say key, key component of the story early on is we're told Rachel was beautiful and form or Rachel was attractive and Leah had weak eyes, but they weren't like blind. It's like a word that describes her eyes, like not pretty. She was not pretty. And so Laban probably knows in that culture he's not going to be able to marry her off to someone. And so Jacob seems like a really good candidate. And so he, you know, he does that and Jacob has to wake up realizing he's, he's been married to the wrong woman. And then of course, he does marry Rachel. It just gets more, more complicated. He does marry Rachel and Rachel can't have children for quite a while. So it's, it's quite the story. If you haven't checked that story out in the Bible, I would definitely encourage that. I think it's in Genesis 29 and 30. I also would encourage there's a great sermon by Tim Keller called the Girl Nobody Wanted that is all about this, this story. And I would highly recommend it. It's just good for all of us to hear that.
- [31:09]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, I want to read what you wrote. You say because she wasn't pretty, she wasn't marriage material, she didn't get a special wedding celebration of her own, which I, you know, in all my years of like reading the Bible and hearing Bible stor, never considered that, Ginny, until I read it in your book. She didn't.
- [31:24]
Podcast Host
It wasn't her wedding.
- [31:25]
Jenny Urch
Instead, her father sneakily married her to the man who loved her sister. Poor Leah was thrown into a situation of hopelessness and loneliness. But one of the points that you bring out in this story if someone relates to being in a situation unfairly, you know, based off of the decisions of others, is, you know, she has these babies and she's hoping that the babies will earn love from her husband. That's like what she desperately wants. But when she gets to the fourth one, it's Judah, which now means let God be praised. And you say that the descendants like the line, the lineage here. I guess, like my point that I'm trying to say is that you never know what's to come.
- [32:09]
Ginny Owens
You never know. Yes. So Jesus comes from Judah's line. And what we hear from Leah, finally on the fourth baby, she says, this time, I will praise the Lord. So she doesn't say, I'm gonna name him, you know, this thing that means my husband will love me now or, you know, and lest we think that is too far from our situations, I think, you know, for me in music and for all of us in something, there's kind of a. We're gonna use this one thing that God has given us or this one thing that's been brought into our life to, you know, to change the world or to win the world or to make ourselves happy, you know, to kind of find. Find ourselves. Like, for me, it was music. Music can help me find myself. It can help me be a valid person in the world and a worthy person, maybe even is a better way to say it. And. And, you know, finally I have to go, no, this time I'm going to praise the Lord. This time, music is just going to be to the end of the. Bringing joy to those around me and praising God. And that's essentially what Leah said.
- [33:15]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:16]
Jenny Urch
I mean, I think you had almost a similar story like you were talking about when you were at Belmont. So this is a school in Nashville, and you're like, oh, I would like to make music for a living. And someone literally says to you, your voice is weak.
- [33:28]
Ginny Owens
Yeah. Yeah. Well, they weren't necessarily wrong at the time. I'm not sure that she was wrong. You know, she was just being honest. But it kind of changed the trajectory of my life, in a sense. I decided, well, if that's the case, then I'm just going to finish my music education degree and drop the rest. So that meant I could get out in four years, and I ended up writing a bunch of the songs for my first album during my final semester of college, when I was taking a bunch of Western Civ classes and all the general ed so I could get out. And four years, so God knew what he was doing. And then a year later, I was recording that first album, so I could have never seen that coming, so. And I know sometimes change doesn't come that quickly, and God doesn't do something that surprising that quickly, and yet, you know, sometimes he does. So.
- [34:23]
Podcast Host
Wow.
- [34:24]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. So you just never know. Leah ends up becoming David's humble, unattractive, unnoticed, great grandma. You wrote, you know, kid two, she named Simeon, which means the Lord has heard that I'm hated.
- [34:40]
Ginny Owens
So dark. So dark.
- [34:41]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. But can't you see how so many people will relate at different seasons of their life? Like, yeah. How many times do you think people have said under their breath or even out loud, like, does God hate me? Yeah, yeah, because of their circumstances. So you just never know. Same with Sim. You know, you talk about Deborah in the book, you talk about Hannah. So lots in here about when things
- [35:04]
Podcast Host
don't seem to be going your way
- [35:05]
Jenny Urch
and like what might, what might God be doing under the surface? And then you weave in your own story. I love this book. Singing in the Dark.
- [35:12]
Ginny Owens
Thank you.
- [35:14]
Podcast Host
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Jenny Urch
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Podcast Host
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- [38:57]
Jenny Urch
Okay, so tell us then. It's been a while. You've put out so much music over the years. You were with Michael W. Smith. Now I know you wrote that his his label closed down, right? But tell us about this new album, this new mini album that's coming out. Different Kind of water.
- [39:12]
Ginny Owens
Yeah, So I have been writing this album for about, I don't know, five years and I'm always kind of releasing a single here or there. So if people enjoy music, they can definitely find, you know, music coming out very slowly. But I've been just kind of writing this, this cluster of songs, this group of songs that are really just about the human journey, the human condition. Like the longing for satisfaction like we've been talking about in the book is clearly a recurring theme in my life. It's just this. This longing that we're always trying to satisfy with something. So that's where the title Different Kind of Water comes from. Because it's essentially the idea that we probably need a whole different kind of water to satisfy us because the waters around us aren't working. But there are also songs about just what does it look like to go on the journey of forgiveness? And there's a song about just how important the thoughts in our minds are. Like, how important what we sing is. You know, we want something good and hopeful to be on repeat in our hearts. And there's song about just song for my own heart, about just not being self obsessed, like about being passionate about, you know, the world and what others need and how I might be able to meet those needs and just giving my time away. Songs about all kinds of different things, but. But just. I think the human journey really sums up what this album is about.
- [40:44]
Jenny Urch
Tell us about the journal.
- [40:46]
Ginny Owens
Oh, yeah. So some of my friends online said, well, you have to make a cd. And I was like, who really wants a CD except a few of you guys? And so what we decided to do was to make a little book. So it's a book with stories from the album. So stories behind the songs and just kind of my journaling. But then there's also space for folks to listen to the music and journal for themselves. Just kind of, you know, fill out whatever they're thinking about and meditating on as they listen to the music. So there's a CD in the back if you're old school and you have a CD player. But there's also a QR code in the front where you can just scan and the music will just magically pop up on your phone.
- [41:29]
Jenny Urch
I love that idea, Jenny. Our kids, like, they've gone back to CD players. Like, people want embodied stuff. Yeah. They're like, for Christmas, could you please get me a CD player?
- [41:40]
Ginny Owens
Wow. Things that you never thought you'd hear.
- [41:42]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, like, you know, you can listen digitally, but they, they really like that.
- [41:46]
Podcast Host
They love CDs.
- [41:47]
Jenny Urch
I think that's a fantastic idea to have out a CD with a journal. Of the five new songs, which one is your favorite? One to sing.
- [41:55]
Ginny Owens
Oh, my goodness, that's so hard. Well, there are a few, but I guess either I would have to say God will meet you there, which is a song that I started writing about, or that I was inspired to write just after having so many conversations with friends that just seem to have unanswerable questions. You know, just heavy life situations where I just said, I don't know what the answer is, but I do think that I do. I am certain that God will meet you in whatever situation you are facing. So that's one of my favorite. And then the other one is the title track, Different Kind of Water. I love singing that one. It's just kind of based on the idea of a C.S. lewis quote where he says, if I find within myself a desire that is that nothing on this earth can satisfy, it probably means I was made for another world.
- [42:50]
Jenny Urch
Ah, yay, new music. Okay. Of all the songs when you go perform, is there one that you're the most sick of playing?
- [42:57]
Ginny Owens
Yeah. So I think as you get older and you keep going in your music life, you're just happy that people want to hear your songs. So I think I've become. No, it used to be like, anything that I was playing a lot. Like, I don't know, for probably the first five years of my career, I was like, please don't ask me to play if you want me to ever again. Because I just played it so often or free or whatever. Just any, you know, anything from the first few albums because they were out, and so I was playing everything from them. But I think as I've gotten older, it's just so. It's kind of even more fun because you're just. You've had time. I've had time to grow with these songs, and, you know, they always kind of mean something a little different to me. And so getting to share them with new audiences and new listeners and listeners that have been there for a long time, it's super special. So now I will happily sing anything. Although I will say sometimes people will ask me to sing things from the first album. Like, there's a song called I am nothing. And having now been a professor of songwriting, I'm like, that song is too long and too wordy, and what in the world was I thinking? So there are times when people ask that. I'm like, oh, I can't believe I actually ever wrote this.
- [44:11]
Jenny Urch
But they love it.
- [44:13]
Ginny Owens
You know what?
- [44:14]
Jenny Urch
It's interesting. It is interesting that there is considered, like, a right and wrong way, but in other art, there's really not right. Like, you can paint however you want, but with songwriting. I've got our oldest daughter.
- [44:26]
Podcast Host
She's 16.
- [44:27]
Jenny Urch
She likes to write songs. And, you know, and we've got some friends that do sing songwriting stuff, and they'll be like, it's too wordy, you know, and you're kind of like, oh, it's interesting. It's interesting that there is, I guess, an accepted format.
- [44:43]
Ginny Owens
Yeah, that is. That is true. Well, and I always would tell my students, you don't have to follow the format, but. But if you want to do it long term and if you want to do it for others, like, if you want to write music for. For others to listen to, not just for your own outlet, then it is a good idea to learn those rules. And then you can paint outside the lines. But if you know the rules, then you. You know, you. If you know the rules, it's a great starting point because it just kind of helps you understand how songs work and how our ears hear songs. And I think that's kind of why there are rules, because there are certain ways that we tend to hear, and there's certain things our brains kind of respond to that that we can kind of know that are, you know, not formulaic, but. But I guess certain formulas that do work. But then you can start to, you know, make the lines longer and. And make the melodies different, and you can. You can break the rules once you know them.
- [45:40]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Podcast Host
Okay.
- [45:42]
Jenny Urch
Is there a song that you like break out into a cold sweat because it's hard to play?
- [45:49]
Ginny Owens
Oh, gosh, yeah, probably. I think anytime there's a new album, there's always a few songs that are hard to play and sing at the same time.
- [45:58]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [46:00]
Ginny Owens
I don't know about breakout in a Cold Sweat, though. But, like, there's a song on the new. On the new EP that's super fun called On Repeat, and it's. It's very. It's kind of got this gospel vibe, especially in the middle, and it's just really big and happy and big piano chords, and it's. It's a little hard to play and sing it at the same time. So I get a little nervous when that one comes up.
- [46:22]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you've had to learn over the years, I'm sure, to work through your nerves. Talk about the practicing part. So sometimes people's kids listen in with their parents. And where do we do piano? I played the piano since I was four. So you were three and I was four. The Ginny and Jenny's play the piano.
- [46:42]
Ginny Owens
And in fact, we should go on tour.
- [46:44]
Jenny Urch
Come on, Ginny and Ginny. We should.
- [46:47]
Ginny Owens
It's squared. That would be so fun.
- [46:50]
Jenny Urch
I am, for the first time in like decades, I'm actually doing a piano competition this weekend along with my kids. It's in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And I'm playing I'll Fly Away. This old hymn.
- [47:01]
Ginny Owens
Yes.
- [47:01]
Podcast Host
And it's a really cute little version of it.
- [47:03]
Jenny Urch
And my kid, I just. There was an adult version and I thought, my goodness, like, I never do anything like this. So I'm excited about it. But my kids and even myself, you know, everyone complains about practic, but I liked what you wrote in this book and I think this is important for, for people to remember. Like you specifically called out the fact
- [47:22]
Podcast Host
that, you know, this practicing is hard.
- [47:23]
Jenny Urch
But then you said it really paved the way for you because then you said, look, I'm. I'm able to do whatever kind of music I want. Let me see, you wrote, putting in
- [47:33]
Podcast Host
the work pays off.
- [47:34]
Jenny Urch
Studying piano is hard and monotonous. But because of all that work, today I'm able to sing in any type of situation and under any kind of pressure.
- [47:42]
Podcast Host
Do you still practice?
- [47:44]
Ginny Owens
Oh, I have to, yes. I'm actually a worship leader at a church too, which is, which is the most nerve wracking thing I do all week.
- [47:52]
Podcast Advertiser
Really?
- [47:52]
Ginny Owens
Down? Oh yeah, 100%. I don't know, there's something about being with your hometown people. Yeah, it's just a lot of pressure. So. But yes, I have to practice. Yes, it's good. And also in New York City, which is where I live, you know, there's a lot of jazz players and a lot. Just exceptional talent all around me. So, yeah, you know, I. It's good to just be as practiced up as I, as I can be. So, yes, practicing. And you know, in some ways I don't ever really enjoy practicing more than I did as a kid, but I. But I do feel like it's necessary and I'm always so happy when I did it. So it's a little bit like working out in that sense.
- [48:34]
Jenny Urch
I think part of the thing that's tricky is that if you like, especially if you're a singer songwriter, you could sit down and just play the song that you love to play and sing along. But it takes a lot of discipline to actually practice something new or something that's not as easy. What, what has been some of your like, practice routines over the years or do you have any advice for someone who's like I just love to play what I know, but I don't want to try and learn anything new.
- [49:01]
Ginny Owens
Oh yeah, well, always take it in small doses because you will be. Or small doses is maybe not the right. Like, you know, divided into bite sized chunks. Maybe that's the way to say it. Or small chunks. We're going to get the metaphor right in a second here.
- [49:17]
Jenny Urch
I like small doses, but really.
- [49:20]
Podcast Host
But actually you're like, no, you got
- [49:21]
Jenny Urch
to kind of practice a lot. So a small dose.
- [49:23]
Ginny Owens
Yeah, yeah, like. Or like a small chunk here and there and just you will be amazed how quickly you, you get it if you, you know, you eat the apple one bite at a time. Right. So I find that I also, sometimes if I have taken a small chunk of something or like when I am learning new jazz chords, I can sit and list and practice my patterns and actually listen to something else. Maybe not music, but I might listen to, you know, the 1000 hours outside podcast while I'm practicing my, my scales. And I feel like sometimes that actually helps me get the finger, the dexterity, memory going on and just kind of locks it in. And I'm also a bit relaxed. So you can't do all your practicing like that. But, but if there's something that I'm just kind of trying to commit to memory, I can do that and help. It helps it not feel like such a practice session, you know, because I'm also doing something fun and then also giving yourself reward. So, you know, saying, okay, I'm gonna do this for a few minutes and then I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna practice for a half hour and then I get to whatever, have a snack or eat dinner or. Mine are all food, but, but, you know, get to do something fun. So. Yeah, I do think it's, it's, you know, giving yourself those small bites and then, you know, giving it yourself rewards. It'll. It'll make it easier.
- [50:48]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. Do you know my mom did that she would give a pen a penny. This is the 80s. Pennies aren't even a thing anymore, actually. So Wild Ginny. We were in Washington, D.C. we took
- [51:00]
Podcast Host
our kids over the hot like right
- [51:02]
Jenny Urch
around the holiday time and randomly we were there and we did some sightseeing and we went to the Lincoln Memorial. We were, we had a walk kind of far anyway, right where that was happening, they were having a funeral for the penny. It was like a whole thing they had. Yeah, it was just, I mean, people lined up, everyone was dressed in black.
- [51:24]
Ginny Owens
Wow, that's incredible.
- [51:26]
Jenny Urch
It was just a random thing that we happened on, so. And obviously, pennies aren't. They're not a thing anymore, hardly. But when I was a kid, my mom would give a penny for every five minutes that I practice. So if I practice for 30 minutes, I'd get 6 cents. And then she would give us, because I've got brothers, a dollar every week. We had our lesson, and I really liked playing the piano. And I remember thinking, this is odd. Like, why is she giving me this? But I do think it was so motivating, and it was, like, so precious. And so we still do the same thing. Like, our girls are doing this piano competition. They're nervous. One of my daughters is singing too. And so I'm like, well, everyone gets a little prize that they're pick out. And I love that you brought that up.
- [52:08]
Ginny Owens
So cool.
- [52:09]
Jenny Urch
I love it.
- [52:10]
Ginny Owens
I wish I could hear there. You'll have to record them and send them to me.
- [52:13]
Jenny Urch
I'll send. I'll send them along. Yeah. So I love that you said that to give yourself a little prize. There's a book out called Beginner, and it's by a man named Tom Vanderbilt, and it's about choosing to become a beginner when you're an adult and trying to learn new things. And, like, he learned how to surf, and he learned how to play chess, and. Oh, and he joined a choir. And I thought, I love this advice that you're giving for people, because these things really enhance your life. Do you like playing classical music, too?
- [52:39]
Ginny Owens
You know, I don't play as much classical music. I. Sadly, my technique for classical music has. It has not been practiced. It is not. Because it's just kind of not center stage. Not really sure.
- [52:53]
Jenny Urch
I mean, it's not. The worship music does not call for that.
- [52:56]
Ginny Owens
Yes. But I do love classical music, and I. Yeah, I do love it. And when I can, sometimes I'll still play some of the classical pieces that I grew up playing. And I. I do love doing that.
- [53:08]
Jenny Urch
I love that. Okay, so then tell us what you're doing now along with this album. Putting out new music. Like you said. You also work at a church, and then you also have a new project coming out called the eight at home. I'm hoping asap. The asap.
- [53:21]
Ginny Owens
The ASAP project.
- [53:22]
Jenny Urch
What's the word from.
- [53:24]
Ginny Owens
What is that? Who is this guy? So Asaph was actually David's musical director in the Old Testament. So there's Songs of Asaph. Like, if you ever notice when you're reading the Psalms, there are, I think 12 Psalms of Asaph. And so, yeah, so he was a worship leader, essentially. And so the Asaph Project is a new nonprofit that is going to train worship leaders in their skill and in worship leading. And we will also be writing songs for the church. So lots of fun things going on there. I'm really excited to get to that and to dive into training leaders later this year.
- [54:07]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, so that's coming out this year. So people are following along then. They'll just be. They can just follow along with what you have going on on your YouTube and different things. Are there other. What would be the best place for someone to follow along so they can be aware of when that, when that launches?
- [54:22]
Ginny Owens
Oh, let's see. I'd say the website, which is jennyowens.com but also Jenny Owensofficial on Instagram. If people are there, we will definitely be putting notifications about where you can go to follow the new pages and then Also on. On YouTube, as you mentioned. But Instagram and the website would probably be the first two places.
- [54:45]
Jenny Urch
I'd say, okay, I just adore you. I love.
- [54:49]
Ginny Owens
I adore you, too. And your name.
- [54:53]
Jenny Urch
What a special thing. I mean, I have like, since I was.
- [54:56]
Podcast Host
However.
- [54:56]
Jenny Urch
What year did you start putting out music?
- [54:59]
Ginny Owens
1999 was the summer I have felt
- [55:02]
Jenny Urch
connected with you since 1999 because. Oh, like someone with. We have the same name. And so it's just been. That's a. Kind of a long time ago, right. Like 1999. I. And so such an honor to get a chance. Like when it came across, I was going to get a chance to talk with you, I was like, no way. And then I just liked your book so much because of these overarching themes of being in circumstances that don't change or feeling like you got screwed over by another person or feeling like you're plotting along and like it's just all of this, what is God doing behind the scenes and under the surface. And it's just, just tremendous writing, Ginny,
- [55:38]
Podcast Host
about how you were able to take
- [55:39]
Jenny Urch
these Bible stories and bring out parts that I didn't know were there, never thought of, and then weave your own story into it. And just incredible. You got this new music coming out and the journal, which is a great idea, and then pull out your CD players and you can play it on the cd. So I so appreciate your time. I appreciate everything you're doing. We always end our show with the same question. And I want to tie this to your book.
- [56:03]
Ginny Owens
Book.
- [56:03]
Jenny Urch
The book is called Singing in the Dark. You say your mom, you said as a kid, you were the ultimate worry warp. But your mom always encouraged you to lay your burdens down and go play outside. And you say you did notice that your neighborhood cohort always seemed to be carefree, so you strove to keep your worries to yourself and play ferociously in attempt to drown them out. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:30]
Ginny Owens
Oh, a favorite. There's so many. I think it was when one. I believe it was in the summer because we weren't in school. But we were all pretty young. There were like four neighbor kids that would come to play with my brother and me, and we were digging in the backyard for gold and we found a little piece of. I'm gonna guess it was a little piece of pipe or something. And we just. Just knew we had struggled and it was the best day ever for all of us.
- [56:59]
Jenny Urch
So I love that.
- [57:00]
Ginny Owens
Until we had to fill in the hole. Big hole.
- [57:03]
Jenny Urch
Our youngest is constantly like, can I dig? What do you think you're gonna find?
- [57:08]
Ginny Owens
What are you gonna find out there?
- [57:10]
Jenny Urch
Oh, but it is so exciting. It's a. It's a treasure hunt. Thank you so much for your time. It's such an honor to meet you. I like I said I love the YouTube as well. There's tons of things on the YouTube at Jenny Owens music, not just the series that I was talking about earlier.
- [57:23]
Podcast Host
How I see it, where you talk about, you know, how you talk about
- [57:26]
Jenny Urch
how you do your makeup and, you know, how do you make your coffee even, and. And it just goes to show that, you know, you have. Your memory works different and like the spatial awareness and you're like, I can hear if there's a wall. I can hear if there's a couch. You know, I can hear. So it's just fascinating. I have just loved going down this Ginny Owens rabbit hole. Thank you so much for being here.
- [57:47]
Ginny Owens
Oh, thank you, Jenny. It's so great to get to talk to you. Hey, sorry to interrupt your playlist, but this is better than music. It's free stuff. Download TikTok, search/free and share the link to get items for free.
- [58:04]
Jenny Urch
Start slashing now.