← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 754: The Mother in Law Triangle | Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, You, Your Husband, and His Mother
00:57:23
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- [00:01]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [01:13]
Jenny Urchin
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urchin, the founder
- [01:16]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
of 1000 Hours Outside and I'm so
- [01:19]
Jenny Urchin
excited that Dr. Tracy Daglish is back. We are going to be talking about mother in laws today.
- [01:23]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Welcome Jenny, thank you so much for that warm welcome and thank you for inviting me back. I feel like this is a chance for us to just hang out in your living room. I know we're not in your living room but like we should be just to like grab some tea, coffee, some snacks and just talk. All things right before the holidays.
- [01:39]
Jenny Urchin
I love this. So we talked earlier about your book. It's called I Didn't sign up for this and I just loved it. I talked about it so much, Tracy, about the story about the guy who made sausage for dinner and was like, well I tried, you know, and like how you find yourself and you told your own personal stories in that book about how you find yourselves in these situations that you feel like you didn't sign up for. Like you didn't think it was going to go this way and now what do I do? And it's just filled with practical, practical advice, advice and all sorts of stories where you relate to it and you know, you can figure out what to do. So I love that book. And then while we were talking, it got brought up that you have another book about mother in laws. So it's called you, your husband and his mother. We've never talked about mother in laws on this story. Create a healthy relationship with your mother in law and your spouse in five simple steps. And so I was like, oh, I, I'd love to have you back on to talk about this one. And you said, let's do it right before Easter.
- [02:40]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
You know, here, here's the thing. The conversation around extended family members never goes away. If it's either before baby comes, baby comes. You know, babies are. What's the highest birth rate? It's around September, right before September, or before wedding season, or before Thanksgiving or Christmas or any major holiday. It's this conversation that we're all having. And, and Ginny, I love that you haven't had this yet here because I think it really speaks to how we have these experiences and feelings in families. And, and yet for so many of us, we still are very quiet about those experiences. And that's a whole thing to unpack.
- [03:17]
Jenny Urchin
Oh, so that's so interesting, isn't it, Tracy? Like this. I mean, I think there's. I've got currently 750 episodes, let's say, that are recorded. And yeah, we've never talked about in laws ever. So. Yeah, that's your point. And beyond that, you say this is a universal problem. It's not just a thing in the United States. You said you were in Turkey, someone was like, would you like some poison for your mother in law?
- [03:43]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And you know, it was, it wasn't even a 2026 issue. That was my experience in 2011. And it was, that's really where a lot of. Let me find my words because I just get so excited about this conversation. I have been working with couples for years, for almost two decades, where an in law has been a tricky conversation. One of the top reasons couples fight. And yet this specific issue didn't have a book. There was no, nothing written specifically for daughters in law. The last real deep dive into this book is called Toxic in Laws and it was released, I think the second edition may be in 2003. I mean, think of how much we have changed since then. We have social media, we have texts, we have grandparents who want to FaceTime every day we have different communication patterns. We have changes in the mental load, how we parent our children. These are real changes that have happened in families. And we haven't yet talked about it. And so it was really interesting then to continue to see this struggle in my therapy room with couples to then just as a, you know, a person walking through the spice market in Turkey and having someone say, would you like some poison for your mother in law? That's in 2011. And here we are today where there are Taylor Swift talks about, you know, mother in law kills me. Well, I can't remember the antihero expression in it. We'll, we'll go by it. But then there's accounts that are focused on helping you navigate your mother in law. Here we are. Let's have this conversation.
- [05:18]
Jenny Urchin
Wow. Yeah. Okay, So I want to be very clear. My mother in law is. She's a doll. So I feel bad. I read these things and I was like, oh my gosh, this would make your life so hard. Like, there was one mother in law that was like, what did you say? My grandson is not a part of your family. She birthed him.
- [05:42]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yeah, right.
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Jenny Urchin
Oh, it's still difficult.
- [05:45]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And, and I just want to first pause to acknowledge all of the women who have showed up to, to support their daughters in law. There are some beautiful stories and I'm so glad that you have that supportive mother in law that's there and you are connected and you're all a family. And then other groups of people who really struggle with things that are maybe small, like paper cuts, but then other moments that are really hurtful and disrespectful. And this is not a conversation. So I walk really carefully in this conversation. I also walk in it honestly, because I will be a mother in law one day. I have a son and a daughter. And it's very, it's going to be very different with both of whoever their partners are that they bring home. And, and yet there's this very real experience where women are not respected and there, there's this dynamic that they struggle with. And then the key piece about this, which is why I wrote this book, is because then it's breaking marriages and our children need us to have strong marriages.
- [06:52]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. So this is a huge problem. 85 of women said they had conflict with their partner about their mother in law. Couples are heading toward divorce because they don't have a solution. You say, in my clinical practice online programs, which people can join the be connected digital online community. In my clinical practice online programs and interactions with friends and colleagues, one issue comes up more frequently than any other unresolved mother in law conflict. And there's not been A book about it since 2003. And then this one is especially for the daughter in laws and then with a focus on keeping your marriage intact. Yes, that's the focus. It's like how do you navigate it from the perspective, I don't even know
- [07:32]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
if that's the way to say it.
- [07:33]
Jenny Urchin
But like there is a goal here to keep your immediate family intact. And how are you going to do that? So one of the things that you do is you go through and you talk about, well actually I want to start here. You do talk about like the different types of mother in laws and the different types of daughter in laws. But I actually want to start here with the fact that and this makes sense, you walk into a family and they have got their own patterns. So in my husband's family, the pattern is, is that they talk about Seinfeld and maybe we talked about this last time, but like I don't really care about Seinfeld but like I know immediately within 14 seconds like that's going to be something that happens. It's quoted, you know where they're going to quote Seinfeld. So this is like a family that's a very light one. But like every family has their way of doing things. And so when you enter in with your own family dynamics that you grew up with, you could be walking into a really dysfunctional spot. But even though they're dysfunctional, they don't see it and they're going to call you the problem because you're different.
- [08:32]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
So many daughters in law end up being labeled the scapegoat and being called the problem because they are the one to name the family system. And I say to so many women, I say this system existed long before you joined the family. You are outside of it. And so of course you see it. And yes, you know, that's not to say her family is not a problem. And they don't have their own things, they have their own system as well. But what happens for so many couples is she, I'll give a very kind of general experience that happens is she goes to her husband and says, oh, I think your mom is guilt tripping us. Like did you notice that, that we said we couldn't come for the holidays and she said, oh, I guess I'll be all by myself and nobody really cares for me anyways. Wow. And then her husband says, what? No, that's just mom, you're being ridiculous. Or mom comes in the door and says immediately to you, are you looking after my husband or are you looking after My son, those Freudian slip. Are you looking after my son? Why doesn't the baby have socks on right now? And immediately comes in and is criticizing what you are doing and you're you. Then later on say to your husband, you know, love. Like that felt so hard. Your mom shows up unannounced. We didn't talk about having her visit. And then she's telling me what to do for parenting. And this is the breaking in our couple bonds is then he says, he says something like, you're being too sensitive. That's just mom. And that's a painful lived experience for so many couples where they're not on the same page because it feels like she's asking him to abandon in his family when that's not at all what's being asked. The goal of this work here is, and I've done this with couples and I've seen them work through the vault method, which is inside the book. And it's so powerful, it's for them to say, how do we build a strong family bond while still bringing in your family of origin to be part of these moments?
- [10:42]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Yeah. And then it just, it's like, I think the thing about it that's so confusing to me is like, it just seems so unwise and foolish that a matriarch. Is that the word. Like the grandmother is what I would consider so like, I would hope that when I become a grandmother, I would do everything I could to help to strengthen the my kids own family units and not to cause problems. So it is bizarre to me that anyone would cut with like, but so do you feel like it's unintentional? Do you feel like, but in some cases, do you feel like it's kind of. Not that it's kind of intentional because like they feel like maybe the mother feels like she's being replaced.
- [11:29]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I think it depends and I think there's a both end in here. And that is first, let's acknowledge the women who are being respectful, who are caring for their daughters in law, who welcome them in, who stand up for them and say, you're part of our family. There's no, there's no us women versus you experience in that family. And there is a whole group of mothers in law doing that beautiful work in their families and supporting the couple and their family. And then there are women who may not necessarily be aware of these unconscious patterns and experiences. And these are people who likely deep down inside feel insecure. And that insecurity comes from if you, if you're parenting different than how I did. Does that mean that you think I did it wrong? Or insecurity of what's my role here now? Because now you two are developing your family and I'm on the outside and I don't know how to say to you, hey, am I still important in this and I still want to have a role in your life. There's insecurity about. You know, this is really interesting too, because there are many who will say, my mother in law shows up unexpected. And then when there's kind of this like perception, perception change, that mother in law will say, well, my mother in law showed up unannounced all the time and it was fine. I would just let her in. So then people do to their daughters in law what they had experienced to them.
- [12:56]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. And to your point, there's really no resources out there about this. Like, no, what are you supposed to do? And it's probably pretty nuanced. Like, you know, what would be helpful, what's not helpful? How much help do they want? I mean, there's just so much there. So can you talk about the fact, like, what do you do when you end up in a situation that has enmeshment or codependency issues and like, you're in this situation of these prior family dynamics and like, you're not going to change it?
- [13:25]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Right there is the first thing that you have to recognize is the focus has to be on strengthening your marriage and not trying to change the family system. I think for so many of us, we get stuck in this externalization where we look outwards and we think, well, if my mother in law was just different, if she could just see, if she could just see, see this pattern that she gets into. And that's not our work to do where we have agency, control and choice, which I know I talked about that in our last podcast, is really like, how do we get to decide how we show up? That is how I go to my partner and communicate things. That's how we choose boundaries together. That's how we become this united front moving forward. And this is a conversation that I say to men. So for people looking at the book in the back, I have five things from Dr. Tracy that your husband needs to hear from me. I couldn't write a book titled like this and not have a section for men to get them on board. I think of how Eve Rotsky did it in Fair Play and how it's kind of like this rip out section to send to your husband of like, why you should do this. Work. And this is the main thing I say to men, is when you do nothing, you are part of the problem. And your wife isn't asking you to cut off your family. She wants to feel solid as a marriage. And that's the first step is how can we first then understand what's really important to us in our life?
- [14:52]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, I love it. I. I love the premise of it, which is learning how to deal with. It's a triangle that you call. It's not like one person's in the middle. You say it's a triangle. And these triangles can kind of be shifting. How do we navigate that sort of triangulation? Relationship, son, daughter in law, mother in law, and keep the marriage intact. That's the premise here. Okay, so there are six types of mother in laws and three styles of daughter in laws. How did you figure that out?
- [15:24]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
That is through my clinical experience, through almost two decades of working with hundreds of people. And I always want to emphasize this, is that whenever we create these kind of systems, when I say we, I think of therapists and psychologists. This is not a diagnosis tool. It's not for you to then sit there and say, oh, well, look, your mother is this. And that's the whole problem here. But instead, when we can understand a pattern of behavior or our approach to how we show up, then it allows us to choose. What do we do next. So, for example, I did not use the word narcissist in labeling the different types of mothers in law. And I did that intentionally, Ginny, because one of the most harmful things we could do to our partners is to go to them and say, oh, hey, love, by the way, this book right here tells me that your mother is a narcissist. That doesn't get them on board. It's also this very vague word that we don't understand behavior. So when I looked at these types, I was looking at groups of behavior that frequently and regularly shows up, that then once you can identify that group of behavior, you yourself can say, how do I want to respond to that? And we'll go through them. And then when I was thinking about the styles for daughters in law, it was like this continuum, almost like attachment styles. How we can be close and secure with someone, but then with someone else we might be avoidant or anxious.
- [16:47]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [16:48]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And so then when we think about the style of daughter in law you are, you might actually transition between them throughout different various events. I think of when you first meet your in law family, many times we fall into the good girl daughter in law style because we want to impress our partner's family. There's a power dynamic I see many mothers, not all, but many, fall into more of that manager daughter in law style because she's trying to navigate having a child and sleep schedules and what does it even mean to be a parent. And then when I think of more of that collaborative daughter in law, that's the one where she's got firm boundaries. She knows what her needs are and she can ebb and flow between seeing what her mother in law wants and needs and seeing what she wants and needs.
- [17:36]
Jenny Urchin
Okay, so I want to point out that in this book I actually felt like, gosh, this is such a resource, one of the best I've seen to probably strengthen your marriage because it's filled with so many deep open ended questions all the way through it. Like there's an exercise. The questions are so good, okay, like your shared desires. And I have written down my notes. There's a great list of questions from pages 134 to 141. I mean, wow.
- [18:10]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [21:53]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
That's in step two of the vault method, so I'll share briefly what that is. So the vault method is five different steps, and it sounds and it stands for each step of what you're doing. And the vault actually came from this and this metaphor or analogy of what I wanted couples to experience in their marriage. I wanted them to be this secure unit, almost like a vault, that we don't let other things come in between us so we're sound and secure. And so what you're talking about those questions. Oh, gosh. And these are a list of questions that I wish I had back in 2011 or 2012, because we didn't know what we didn't know back then. And those questions are really part of step two. And I found that couples would come to me saying something similar in the lines of, we are on the same page for our values, family matters to us, but when it comes to actually deciding what to do about having mom in the delivery room, we're on completely different pages. And so these questions are for whether you are new in a relationship, whether you are struggling right now in your relationship with extended family, or you're about to get married. My wish for this book, Ginny, is that every married couple were to get this as their, like, engagement.
- [23:08]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. Before you're married. So you would start to talk about if you're. While you're engaged. So I brought up them that list because it was the. A really long one. Like, it went from 134 to 141. But there's these exercises that go all the way through the book. So there's questions to ask about your partner's family. There are questions to help find areas of flexibility, questions for compromise. I was like, this book is such an incredible resources, how to. How to get unstuck. So I just wanted to give an
- [23:36]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
example of a couple.
- [23:37]
Jenny Urchin
So this is like you said in the vault section. Who will be responsible for making plans with your family? Who will be responsible for maintaining the connection with your family? Who will be purchasing gifts for your family? How much will we spend? How do you want to approach group texts with your family? How often will we see your family? How long will those visits be? How much notice do we need before visit? How do we determine when a visit is over? Who will we stay with when we visit? I mean, and this is just one Small section of this. What is the ideal for? Who will communicate with your mother? What information do you feel is appropriate to share with your mother? When we have a disagreement about our needs and your mother's wishes, what should we do to handle it? And I mean it just goes on and on. Tracy and I thought, oh my gosh, if you sat down and answered all the questions in this book, which are that. But then there's also about your shared. There's also about questions to ask about your partners family. Like if, if you went through and said who, what did your parents do with their emotions? How are disappointments communicated and dealt with? You would have such a stronger relationship.
- [24:45]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I remember sitting with someone on their podcast and she had said, we don't have in law issues, but I'm taking all five of these steps and we're going to have a marriage weekend because all of this is going to help us really communicate about where we are in our life right now. And I think that's the piece that we miss is when it comes to our in laws, this is really about you being a solid team and when you can understand each other and you can help your nervous systems not be on fire. Every time you talk about his mom, that changes what, what's going to happen next. There, there's one section in there that I absolutely love and I haven't seen it in any other book. And it's around boundaries. And I talk about the three things that couples need to be on the same page to set boundaries. Here's what the most common thing I hear from people, which is I have this boundary, but my husband doesn't believe it or he doesn't want to set it or he doesn't know how to or he tried and it didn't happen. And so I talk about these three pieces. One is the willingness you have to be willing to do it. Two is the importance you have to see why this matters to your partner. And then three is ability. Do you actually know how to set a boundary? And when you have those three pieces, you're going to be more successful in being able to do that with family members.
- [26:01]
Jenny Urchin
And once again, an incredible list of questions about the boundaries, how. And I think these are good questions for anything that's right. I'm like, it's just such a good book. You're going to grab it if you, you know, obviously attracted to it. If you're like struggling and dealing with things with in laws. But in general, like your friend said, it's just a great marriage book. Like if you took the questions in here that come from the beginning to the end and went and sat and had a weekend with your spouse. Like you would learn a lot about each other. So how would you like things to be different? I mean, that could be with mother in law, but it could be with anything. What do you think needs to happen around this situation? What areas are you willing to change? What's the downside of how things are going right now? What are the potential benefits of setting a boundary versus what are the potential costs? What are the benefits and costs of not sending the setting the boundary?
- [26:54]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
How about this?
- [26:55]
Jenny Urchin
If we think of where we want to be as a couple in five years, you know, what do we need to be able to do? So I'd written that down here. It's just another incredible list of more questions. You said when you come to the boundaries, when one partner says you need to set a boundary, it usually doesn't make the other person more willing to do so. So that's why you're talking about the willingness and the defensiveness. But people struggle with setting boundaries. You said one of the biggest questions that comes up is am I a good person?
- [27:25]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yeah. Because it's this idea of am I allowed to say no? Am I allowed to have my own wants and needs? And we tie it so much to our sense of self. And I think that's for a lot of parents who are in a lot of women especially who have taught, who have been taught to perform, to please, to perfect that. It's really hard for us to believe that we're allowed to say no. And the, the thing that I like to reframe for people is no doesn't mean you are rejecting somebody. It means it doesn't work for you.
- [27:59]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, you say boundaries are pivotal for the health of any relationship. Another amazing set of questions in here is about meta communication. Can you say what meta communication is and why it's important?
- [28:11]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
So you and I right now are communicating back and forth, but then if I want to go to meta, it's almost like going one level AB love. And so then I would say, oh, I noticed that you keep looking down, Jenny. And I'm just wondering if there's something going on here. And so then I would be like reading my notes. I know you are, but so. So oftentimes we get stuck in content in our conversations rather than talking about what's happening between us. And as a therapist, I'm always more interested about what's happening between two people than actually what they're fighting about. And so if a couple can then start to speak in that language or even in that. That way, it helps them then to change the level that they're talking at. So it would sound like, hey, love, I'm feeling really defensive right now. You know, you've asked me to help, and I feel like I'm doing a lot already, so I'm just noticing that I'm feeling defensive and I think I need to take a beat. I'm going to take a minute just to think about this. Or the other person can say, I've been trying to share something with you and you're shutting down. And when you shut down, I end up feeling so alone. That's meta communication. It's the process.
- [29:20]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And so then you have all these questions in there about. About. In this book, about can, you know, can we talk about how we've been communicating? It's. I was, like, floored. You have this statistic, 69 of problems are perpetual.
- [29:36]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yeah. That. Oh, gosh. I mean, if we could just all sign a relationship certificate that says, I am signing up for the 5, 10, 25 years of the same problem with you, I think we would do so much better. And I, you know, I think about my husband's shoes in the foyer, and there are times where I trip over them, and I think, yep, you know, he came in, he got distracted, and the shoes were left there. I can move them. And those are days where we were usually feeling secure and connected. And maybe I've gotten sleep that night, and it's no big deal. But then there are other times where I trip over them and I am just so angry, and I say to myself, how many times are to tell you to move your shoes? And it's this thing of, I can't expect him to live in our world in the exact way that I will. And so, Ginny, what's really interesting about this kind of conversation is I did post about this on Instagram recently, and I got. I got the reaction of, so you're dealing with a man child. So we just have to accept that we marry children. Like, no, no, no, no. None of that. But the difference is you choosing how you go back to that issue. So is that really important for me that day, to address the shoes? Because he's not perfect. I leave stuff around. I'm not perfect. Great. Well, you remember from my first book, I put the banana peels in the sink all the time, and he's like, please don't leave the banana peels in this thing. But, you know, it's just this piece where you are two different people and the process of a long term committed relationship is being able to know who you are without losing yourself in the relationship. And so those shoes, we can communicate them. And I can say like, hey, love shoes. And he'll say, oh, you know, I did it again, didn't I? I'm sorry, I'm. I really am working on that. I know I'm not perfect, perfect, but thanks for the gentle nudge.
- [31:33]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. What a book. I mean, the amount of resources in this book, you get a lot, you get a lot of bang for your buck out of this one. Okay, so we are heading into the holidays and this Easter holiday, but I guess I love what you said from the beginning. You're always going to be heading into something. So whenever you're listening to this, you're heading into something. Can you talk about, like, do people ask what's reasonable? Or is that, is it super fluid?
- [32:01]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Oh, gosh. My response is the nuanced relational response, because what works for your family is going to be different for another family. And so when someone's trying to ask what's reasonable, I think the first question I would have is, what's really important to you right now? Like, just hang out in that question for a moment. What really matters to you right now? There are some seasons in life where your kids are young and you can't imagine packing up and traveling six hours in whatever weather you're confronted with. Okay, so what is really important to you in that season might be rest, might be staying home, might be saying, we can't drive in this weather to come do the holiday season with you, and we're going to make sure that we get to plan this other time, that we all come together. So that first question, what's really important to me right now? And then the other piece is, what do we need? What do I need to be well right now? And again, for some seasons, you might need slowness and rest. And I think we. And this is the other thing we didn't touch on. Ginny, why has there not been a book like this? Why are we struggling with this so much? It's because we are a generation now in the last 10, 15 years with the boom of information. We have a different understanding of what it means to break cycles, what it means to identify patterns of enmeshment and codependency. We, we use these words in our regular language. And so that means we are also doing things differently. And I think of Casey Davis, is that her last name?
- [33:32]
Jenny Urchin
I love Casey Davis from Struggle Care.
- [33:34]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yes.
- [33:34]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And so she says, well, like what's the thing she talks about? It's morally neutral.
- [33:39]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Chores are morally neutral. Yeah.
- [33:42]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
So whether you go to that holiday
- [33:46]
Jenny Urchin
event, even other things. Yeah.
- [33:49]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
This year is morally neutral. That's where our generation is different. Because 40, 50 years ago you had to go to the family dinner. You were the good kid. You went to the family dinner. Today. A lot of families are saying, I can't keep being the good kid and only have five days of leave and travel across the country with two crying babies and then come back to work. Work and still be put together.
- [34:14]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Right.
- [34:14]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And so I really do think there's this sense of tuning into what really matters to us and taking out the morality attached to it.
- [34:22]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And then you talk with, that's what you talk about with the Vault method, that the first one is values. What is really important to you. Okay. So you have in this book a whole section of FAQs. I'd love to talk about a couple of them. I just find this shocking that this would even happen. But what do you do if a mother in law excludes you from family events?
- [34:43]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
It's so painful. And this is that question of what's really important. And so some people might say, okay, I don't want to be part of it, that's fine, I'm not going to go. But then for other people, it might say, what kind of precedent are we setting? Or what kind of example are we setting? I know, Ginny. And when you read the examples, it's, it's gut wrenching because we think, how can women treat other women this way? And yet they do. And that's the, that's the incredibly painful part. So when it comes to communicating boundaries, I always say, I recommend that the adult child to that family be responsible to for communicating it. And you don't communicate it in a way of saying, Ginny wants to be included this year or Ginny doesn't want to go this year. So we're not coming to the family potluck because that makes you the bad one and it places you as the problem. And so instead communication, he goes to his mom and he says, hey, listen, mom, we're a family and if you aren't inviting my wife, then you're not inviting me. And we will be moving together as a family. And that's, that's firm. So if you want me there, my whole family is there. And it's about respecting all of us.
- [35:54]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [35:54]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
It's so clear and Simple.
- [35:56]
Jenny Urchin
Yes, you are a package deal.
- [35:59]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [39:41]
Jenny Urchin
husband talk about his marriage problems to his mom?
- [39:45]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Because what it does is it creates the divide. Now here's the thing. You know, if you are being physically abused, sexually abused in some way, you need support. And it's about a completely different conversation. You need support. You need to find a way to navigate this relationship. But as soon as you go to your mom and you say something like, oh, Jenny, gosh, she's always complaining about the kids and like, you know, then she's just like coming at me and yelling at me for some other reason, like, I don't know what's going on with her. Today, your mom only builds the story of Ginny in that way. The job that we do as adults with our family is we protect the marriage. And so we share the good stuff. We share. Hey, Ginny just had this really cool podcast episode they were talking about in laws. Can you believe it? Like, you know, I'm so proud of all she's doing. The kids, this, us, this we. And that's the approach you want to do with your family, not the bad stuff. That is where you go to a therapist or a trusted friend.
- [40:50]
Jenny Urchin
Okay, so then talk about that. There are mother in laws that complain to their son about his wife.
- [40:56]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yes. And, and this is again, this is the triangle. And so I help you identify your specific triangle in step three of the vault method. And that is really tricky because one of the things I talk about with families is. And I always get, I am. My husband says, like, I'm not clear when I say this, but responsibility flows upward in the sense of, of your kid is not responsible for your feelings and then you're not responsible for your parents feelings. Does that make sense?
- [41:28]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [41:29]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
So responsibility flows upwards. And so when a mother comes to you and says, well, I don't know, your spouse just did this and that's not appropriate, that's making you responsible for their feelings. And so I think there's a way that you can approach that, which is a. Okay, so mom, if this is an issue, then we need to find a way for all of us to come together. Or sometimes it's Mom, I've noticed you come to me saying lots of things that you're upset about with my wife. And I think that's something that you need to go and deal with because we're a team and I know my wife has respected you.
- [42:09]
Jenny Urchin
I mean, these are. The list of FAQs was so long. And I just thought, gosh, it's like life is already hard enough. It's so hard, right? Just to care for your own family and your own 69 of perpetual problems, whatever.
- [42:22]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
But remember, when we feel insecure here, we're trying to find something to do that. And so if there are people who are struggling with the changes. And you know what? This is actually a really great example of meta communication. You go, if you're, if you're one of those parents where your adult children are doing this separation thing, you go to them and say, you know, there are these moments where I feel a little shaky about my role in your family. Can we talk about how I can still participate with you and your partner because you both mean so much to me. And that is such a different conversation that a mother in law can be having with her child and their partner is how can I support the two of you?
- [43:03]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, okay. This is something that comes up a lot and, and this is something that hasn't happened in our family and I'm so grateful for it. And I. An example of it would be that we homeschool. And that is different than what my parents did and what my husband's parents did. And I've always just felt like it's so mature of them to like not take that as a slight. Like there's no insecurity there about. So they're never, they're just supportive. They're just supportive of it. And they have been from the, from the entire time. They also are not pitting siblings against each other either because, you know, not all the siblings do the same thing. So I've just been really impressed with that. They're just supportive of whatever we do. But there are mother in laws that, that are constantly giving parenting advice and like inserting themselves there. So first of all, is that okay? And if not, what are the parents supposed to do about that?
- [44:02]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
That's a great question. And I love hearing stories where parents are being supportive and it's not personal, but instead they seek to understand why you're doing, why you're doing what you're doing. So I think there's this, there's this element in here and this is really the first section of my book that I walk the reader through, which is insight. An insight into the family system, into the couple pattern and also into our own stuff. Because of course, anytime we're in a relationship, we bring forward our own stuff. And so if someone is coming to you and making parenting comments, we have to get curious about how we're going to experiencing it. Is there something about ourselves? Like I, I had this internal narrative for a long time about me as a parent that I wasn't doing enough. And if anyone ever pointed something out, it immediately fed that I'm not enough, I'm not a good parent. And that's a hard belief to carry around with you because it feels like everything comes at you as an attack. And so I then had to look at myself and say, okay, wait, hang on, what do you know about you? You know, how, how are your kids doing? They're happy, you're connected with them, you're present with them. Believe that you are a good mom. I can say it enough to myself that I can believe it today. And because of that, anybody could walk by me and say anything about my parenting choices and it will just slide right off. And so now because of where I am, I don't have to respond to those comments. I don't need to say anything in response to that. And, and I think you know this from my first book. There was a moment. No, it's actually in the second one. I remember when my first was five months old and I set a boundary with my in laws and I had said, I know you're giving this advice out of good intention, but as parents today, we are flooded with advice and all we need from you is to just tell us that we're doing a good job. And from that moment on, they never gave us advice again. And I was so grateful for them hearing that feedback and for us moving forward in that way. And so sometimes there's these moments in life where we can hear comments and hear the criticisms and say, you know, that's, that's their monkey, that's their circus. Like, you know, that's about her, that's about that person. They're criticizing everybody. It's not about me. And there are other times where you might need to say something to someone and say, hey, listen, I know you come from that good place place. This just doesn't feel good for me. And I'm not going to talk about our parenting decisions together. And that's the boundary. Me, me, I'm gonna say I'm not going to talk about parenting with you. And, or you might even say, if you're curious about our parenting, I'd be willing to sit down with you and to talk to you about the decisions and why we've done the things that we've done. But some people aren't interested in hearing that from you. They want to be defended and not understand it. So it really depends. Him.
- [46:53]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And so you go through, I mean, all of these questions you're going through in this book, which is called you, your husband and his mother. Okay, this is, this is one that I feel like I'm asking like solely for myself. You know, it's like you have these kids and they grow up faster than you hope. You know, it seems like it's going to be forever when they're five months, but then when they're 15, you're like, oh, darn. You know, it just, it went by fast past. And so then, you know, you think ahead towards someday being a grandparent. And being a grandparent is not a do over. Like you're not the parent anymore, but like, you may want to still take like the little grandkid on a vacation or you want to be invited to whatever and it's just not your kid. So what are you supposed to do with a mother in law who wants to be more involved but like you also get it because like in the period of time when you're parenting you're like, well we're really busy and there's not a ton of extra space. You know, we try and see grandparents once a week. I'm like, and that seems like a low amount. And even that we can hardly do it, you know, like, I mean it's, it's just tricky. So what do you do?
- [48:09]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
It's all contextual though, right? It's all what works for your family. And there's no right or wrong because some people with their schedules might not even be able to do once a week or some people are able to do more regular visits depending on location of where they live.
- [48:24]
Jenny Urchin
So what do you do if the mother in law wants more? Yeah, and really my question is what am I supposed to do? But I'm the mother in law and you do have a whole section at the back, there's an appendix to your transition to becoming the mother in law you want to be. Which I think is fantastic that that's in there. There's tons of good advice in that section. But yeah, how do you handle the mother in law who wants to do more? And then how do you handle maybe the disappointment if you are a mother in law and it's just not quite. Your grandparenting is not quite what you expected.
- [48:56]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
So you're first asking the question. That is the second top question I get around this topic. One is how do I deal with my mother in law? Two, how do I not repeat patterns and be the type of mother in law I want to be? And that's why that section is in the book. Because I couldn't write and not have the kind of like future thinking. Yeah. And you know, here's the thing about relationships is that we all have expectations, desires and wishes and when we leave them unspoken, then that's the recipe for resentment and disappointment. And so grandparenting and parenting together is really about naming expectations. And that doesn't mean that if you've expressed what you want that you're going to get it, but at least you've put it out there. And so then you can decide together how it works and what it would look like. And, and Jenny, you know, here's the thing. I, I got some pretty not nice DMS on Instagram around promoting this book because people felt that I was trying to separate families. And I think what's really important to name here is none of this is about estrangement. This is about how do we remain in contact with people. Yeah. When things are difficult, how do we build stronger, healthier families. And this is, this is, you know, if you, if you're the daughter in law first and first of all, listening, ask your mother in law, what expectations do you have about seeing us? Because it's often not said, oh, well, you know, maybe I thought about seeing you once a week. Oh, okay. So let's talk about what that looks like and how we could, you know, can we make it possible? And then if you're the mother in law, here's the other thing too. I think we can fall into patterns of even distancing ourselves and not expressing what we want and need. So then we think of the person who's more passive and says, call me if you ever need help. I'm always available.
- [50:53]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Right.
- [50:55]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
But you don't know that she wants to be over more. And so if you're, if you're the grandma right now, listening, if you are wanting to hang out more with your family, then share that, share it with all of them. And there's a caveat in here as well, is that to hang out with your grandchildren, it also means respecting your daughter in law. You have to respect the whole family unit. Right. Like that's just so important because you're modeling it to the kids. How do I treat your mother? And then how do I treat you? My grandkids, they're watching.
- [51:31]
Jenny Urchin
I love this because I think like, like we've talked about, especially when our kids were smaller, like there is often a lot of ways that anyone who could help with your kids could insert themselves. You know, it's like you can come over every Tuesday if you bring dinner with you, like that type of thing. So it's, it's kind of about kind of sorting that through and you know,
- [52:00]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I don't know, know there is something so beautiful about when people can come together. And what, what are some of those essential things? We don't take things personal. We consider how something would feel to hear before we say it out loud. We genuinely respect that there's a couple making decisions for themselves and that we can support them as a couple. I always have this vision of a parent, a grandparent supporting the couple, like being really like this insulation.
- [52:32]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [52:32]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And then because of that, then you are welcomed in to the family.
- [52:37]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, that's kind of what, where we started, which is like I was shocked in reading some of these situations, like you are making that marriage harder. You know, you're the grandparent, you're making the marriage harder. That's making life worse for your grandkids, you know, but I love this perspective of what can I do? And, and also I know that that's tricky because then some, there's, there's health concerns, you know, so there's a lot of moving pieces there. But the book is so it's a, it's a big book. Like it's going to give you a lot of topics to talk through and you talk about, you know, the grandparent is responsible for their relationship with the grandchild. Let's talk about one more specific thing that has to do with this day and age. To your point of there being no book since 2003 and it's like 2026. What about the sharing of information publicly?
- [53:29]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
This has to be guided by the parents. And with our digital footprints, our children aren't the ones consenting and they need to be having that consent. And so this again is being really clear. When we share this with you, please do not share it online. Or you are specific and clear about where photos go. Photos are not allowed to be posted online. And these being clear about your needs and wishes, it's not mean, it's not making the other person bad or you know, saying that they can't have something. It's this, these are our boundaries. This is really clear. And then what often happens is information is shared that you didn't want it to be shared. So the picture gets posted up or news gets shared online. And that's again what you do next. And what you might do next is, is, you know, this is, you reiterate what your boundary is. And our boundary is we don't want pictures shared online. And so if you want to see pictures of the kids, we'll be happy to show you the next time we're together. But we're not going to be sending you those pictures.
- [54:29]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. And then maybe like you can't get together if they don't agree because they're going to post the kids online. So. Interesting. All right. You recommend not ghosting family members. So you do talk about going no contact, but that's just a small part of the book. You have all sorts of other things in here about the mother in law that lives with you. What if the situation hasn't improved? Should I get a divorce? What about the mother in law who believes that you stole her son.
- [54:59]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I. I like the joking response to that of like, yes, I did. I did steal your son. And, you know, you will always be his mother. And. And it's, you know, it. It is. It's just a way of acknowledging it. Yes. And going back to that question about how do we be the grandparents, where we get to be involved, I think about what our role as parents is, and this is something that we're constantly doing with our kids right now, and that is around this idea of healthy separation and individuation. Our children are constantly differentiating from us. It is developmentally appropriate for them to tell us what they don't like and what they do.
- [55:32]
Jenny Urchin
Like.
- [55:33]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
When I think about the other night, one of my kiddos was like, mom didn't like the dark chocolate you bought us for Valentine's Day Day. And I thought it was something so silly. And then at the same time, I had said to her, this kiddo, I was like, thank you for letting me know. This is important information for me. I don't take it personal. I don't take it personal. It's not about me, not about the gift I chose to give them. I have it as information. And then I also thank this kid for expressing themselves because that's what we want them to do. I become a safe place for them to be mad at, to be upset with. I don't guilt them with my feelings. And then they continue to grow, and then they choose a partner, and then they know that they can fall back in this safe place. But I'll never tell them. I'll never tell them, like, oh, don't choose that person. That's not, you know, wow. Oh, have you thought about this? Like, that's so harmful in families.
- [56:23]
Jenny Urchin
It's interesting that you brought that up. I'm glad you did, because I would have forgot to bring up this topic that I didn't know at all. What you said was, is that women, individual, they learned to individuate and set boundaries with their family of origin at earlier ages.
- [56:37]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Jenny Urchin
Which was surprising to me because you tend to think about you're the daughter connected to the mom, and. But then what really happens often is the sun has not really broken away. So that was an interesting thing to learn.
- [56:50]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Boys are socialized to push down their feelings and needs and to not enter into the relational conversations. We're doing differently today with our boys. And yet we still need to help them enter those conversations more frequently and regularly and have experiences where they're having conversations about emotions and relationships. Right. About the relational stuff with each other.
- [57:12]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Yeah.
- [57:12]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And so because of socialization, because of them being boys, then it is harder for them over time to express boundaries and needs until they choose a partner, until they have a child, until they then are forced to express a boundary because that's going to protect their family.
- [57:30]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. And then you have some empathy there because it's like they maybe have not had too much practice with it. And the book helps, it helps you guide through all of these sort of unspoken, unspoken questions, but also questions that you haven't even considered, like, oh, I wouldn't have thought to ask that question. And so it's a fantastic resource. What a gift to get to talk to you for a second time. So if you're heading into Easter or birthday or, or 4th of July or any other holiday that's coming up, you, your husband and his mother create a healthy relationship with your mother in law and your spouse. It's both in five simple steps. Can we wrap it up with the dog story?
- [58:12]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
The dog?
- [58:12]
Jenny Urchin
You know what I'm talking about. Okay. It's the one where you were like, don't feed my dog.
- [58:17]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Oh gosh. My moment where I was not my best self postpartum. And you know, it's so funny. I, I, I wish I had so much more compassion and ability to say no in those earlier days. You know, it's interesting. We can't change the past, but we traveled a lot to see family when our kids were little, like a lot across Ontario, across the province. And when you go from one end to the other, it can be 10 hours in a car. And then so on this visit I was just absolutely exhausted. What sleep regression is that? Like four or five months? I don't remember. And then I at one point see my father in law, what I thought was feeding my dog and we were a no food to our dog kind of experience. I stood up at the table and
- [59:04]
Jenny Urchin
I was like, don't feed our dog.
- [59:06]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
It wasn't our dog. It was their dog. It was their dog. And it was just one of those moments where I'm like, oh my goodness. Like I'm just, you know, just not at my best self. And that was actually around the moment where I had expressed to them, you know, I know you come from a good place, but giving us parenting advice is the last thing that we need and we just need support and to tell us that we're doing a good job. And that was so important on our parenting journey.
- [59:34]
Jenny Urchin
It's a great story. In the blink of an eye. I jumped up and snapped, don't feed our dog. Everyone looked stunned and I felt instantly ashamed as my father in law replied, I think that's our dog. And he was right. Our dogs looked alike. But it just goes to show like so often you're kind of like at the end of your rope because you're so tired. It's already so hard. And so these relationships so hard.
- [60:01]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
And you know what I think also too, if we can enter these conversations and experiences with our in laws where we are all doing this for the first time.
- [60:09]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
- [60:10]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Remember that you're all doing it for the first time. And so if we can then approach it with more curiosity and with more willingness to understand each other. And that goes for both sides, a willingness to understand each other. And I love this idea that you always get to choose how you view the other person. So if you're a mother in law and you decide to view your daughter in law as being controlling and not letting you involved in the kids, shift that viewpoint because that's not going to help you. But see it instead that she's navigating a lot in her life and that there is something small that you can connect with her on. And if you're a daughter in law who feels like your mother in law is always criticizing you about something, find the softer edge that that. And again that's our choice. We have control over that. Find the moments where you do connect and you can just focus on that piece rather than focusing on the why does she always do this?
- [61:04]
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Yes. I love the book. You, your husband and his mother. It is just filled with all sorts of resources for your marriage and resources to have a more intact family. And there was something else I really wanted to say and it's escaping my mind. I really like the book. It has so many resources. What was I going to say, Tracy? Oh, it's going to come to me later.
- [61:29]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
That's okay.
- [61:30]
Jenny Urchin
It had so many great questions. It's going to help your marriage. Oh, that's what I was going to say. I think some books have free frequently asked questions. Not many, but some books have frequently asked questions. There. I've never seen a book with so many frequently asked questions and I think it just goes to show the depths, depth of like nuance that can happen here. So I would love if you would tell people about your be connected digital because I think that online community is very valuable.
- [61:55]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Yes. Thank you so much, Jenny. I created this space in 2020 in the hopes of really helping people change their conversations and to feel connected. I recognize that I cannot see everybody in my therapy room. And I wanted to make what I do more accessible to people. And what I love, how it's formed is there's a community of people who are there to support you. There is Dr. Tracy inside. There's 24. 7 support, which means you're not going to some random AI chatbot that's going to say, yes, yes, you're right to feel this way. No, no. This is. This is a space to ask questions and get immediate answers. And I view this almost as someone just having a fight with their partner and they're in their closet and they're like, I don't know how to repair. I give you the answer right away on how you can do that. And then I have monthly coaching calls that people who are feeling stuck can jump. And I coach them live in our group call. And it's been incredible to see the changes that people have made just by being in this online community.
- [62:53]
Jenny Urchin
Wow. I'll make sure I'll put the link in the show notes. The book is called you, your husband and his mother. Dr. Tracy, thanks for being here.
- [62:59]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Thanks, Jenny. Lifelock. How can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [63:06]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [63:10]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
What do I do?
- [63:10]
Jenny Urchin
My refund, though. I'm freaking out.
- [63:12]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [63:14]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [63:19]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I'm so relieved.
- [63:20]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
No problem.
- [63:21]
Dr. Tracy Daglish
I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [63:22]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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