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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 759: When Worry Stops Running the Show | Addison Bevere, Words With God
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- [00:00]
A
We have had a lot of conversations on this show about how every child is different and how, especially for kids with ADHD or other learning differences, the world can feel a little overwhelming sometimes. And if you're parenting a child like that, I want to point you to a podcast called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's a space where parents are just being really honest with each other about what this journey actually looks like. The questions, the doubts, the small wins, all of it. One part of a recent episode that really stuck with me was this mom who was talking about how she started noticing things early on. Little signals that something might be different. But at the same time, everyone around her was. Was saying, she's fine. And she described that feeling so well, that back and forth between, I know something's going on and what if I'm overreacting? I think so many parents have felt that tension. And then when she shared this moment where her daughter said, I can feel it talking about her body not giving her the signals she needed. And it opened up this whole understanding about how some kids experience the world so differently on a sensory level. It was such a powerful reminder that often our kids are having a hard time, and the more we understand what's going on beneath the surface, the better we can show up for them. I really appreciated how thoughtful and honest the whole conversation was. So if that sounds like something you need right now, go give it a listen. To listen Search for Everyone gets a juice box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a juice Box.
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B
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ert. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and super honored to have Addison Bevere as a guest today.
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A
Welcome, Addison.
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C
Thank you, Jenny. It's an honor to be here. I'm excited for this.
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B
I'm excited, too. I think your story is a really powerful one. You know, you come from a family that in my world is well known. Do you feel the same way? I mean. Well, that's a dumb question.
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C
Hey, listen, my family's very well known in my world. Very well known in my world.
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B
That was a dumb question. I wish I could start over. I'm not going to.
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C
Hey, no, no. I love it. Their presence looms large in my life. It does.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Yeah, That's a real thing.
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B
And I, you know, you kind of get that through. I. I read a couple of your books. A book that goes along with a journal. It's a really good combo. So the one. The one I have here is called Words with God. There's also one called Saints, but this one is called Words with God. It's about prayer, trading boring, empty prayer for real connection. And you pair it with this journal. There's a 40 day Words with God prayer journal. And you really get through your writing. And then also I was able to interview your dad recently that you have this. I mean, I'm sure as close as it can be, you know, there's always problems in families, but a fairly close knit family and we've got five kids, so they're still growing up but close to graduating. And you kind of start to wonder like, how will it be when my kid adjusts into the adult world. And it was just interesting to me that coming from a close knit family and having these brothers that still there was this pressure for you to get more done and to do, do, do and to go, go, go to the point where you kind of burnt out and it shows up physically. So can you talk about. I guess I'm just curious is it's just human nature really is what it sounds like that we kind of take the range when we hit adulthood and often it just kind of snowballs a little bit.
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C
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think we all have to come to the end of ourselves in different ways in different seasons. Like that's, that's a part of our formation. For me, I'm a firstborn, though. Firstborn. Three younger brothers and my dad traveled a ton. He was gone 250 to 275 nights a year when. Yeah. So it was a lot. And he would, and he would say even now it was too much. But I did feel a pressure.
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B
Yeah.
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C
To fill a space in our home.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And in, in some ways that, that formed strength in me and, and character traits that were celebrated and, and called out. And I, and I love that. But in other ways I would say it caused me to hide things that I probably should have been more vulnerable about because I didn't want to give off the appearance of weakness because I felt like I needed to hold things together. And for me, and I share about this in words with God. But I went through a season for five years where I struggled with insomnia. And my dad. People joke about my dad for the people out there who heard messages from my dad. My dad. And one of the things I love and admire about him is he is a man of profound humility, but he's also a man of conviction. And if you interact with him, you're going to see very clearly like the man knows what he believes and he Lives what he believes, and I love that about him. But he went through an evolution, and this is. This is a testament to his humility. He went through an evolution. And being his firstborn, I saw that. I witnessed it. People used to call him Severe Bevere. Right? That was his. His nickname. Okay, Severe Bevere. So I grew up as his firstborn, Jenny. I grew up with Severe Bevere as a dad. Whereas my brother, who's nine years old, younger than me, he grew up with a very different version of my dad. And so for me. And listen, I'm not blaming my dad. I had my own things I had to work through because. And this is just something for parents out there. I have four kids. My own. My oldest is almost 17 years old. My youngest is nine.
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B
Same.
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C
And so I'm in that season. Listen. So I'm remembering, like, my teenage years, and I'm reframing it now as a parent of teenagers. And I'm like, man, I know you're talking about what happened a week ago. It was not that bad. Like, come on, like, let's just be real right now. And so there's that element. There are gaps in our being. And what I love about what my parents did is they modeled humility brilliantly. And we have a saying in our home that humility creates safety. And when you have an environment where people are choosing to embrace the outworking of humility, you look at scripture, James 4, 1st Peter 5 talks about this idea of God gives grace to the humble, but he opposes the proud. And, you know, I. I did grow up believing I'm a one on the Enneagram. I'm a reformer. I would say the shadow side of that is I'm a perfectionist. And I would trade sleep in my late 20s, early 30s for a semblance of control over my world. And I. And I developed a pattern, and then I didn't know how to break out of that pattern. And, Jenny, it wasn't till God taught me that he has a way of not delivering me from a thing when he knows that the thing will ultimately deliver me to him. And when I saw that, I experienced it, I lived through, was a surrender that led to a fresh understanding of identity, purpose. What that meant for me as a father, what it meant for me as a son, what it meant for me as a leader. I have the privilege of leading an organization that does work in virtually every single country. At that time, we had offices across the world. And so there was a pressure that I would take on because I believe that I was A God of productivity. And the world wouldn't spin without my contribution, which is so messed up.
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B
No, actually, I'm so glad that you told the story because I. Well, one time recently I talked to this man who said that sometimes in childhood things happen that are not on purpose. And like you said, your dad said, well, maybe I did travel too much. I probably could have dialed it back some, but he had to work. And, you know, what is he good at? He's out speaking or doing these different things. And this guy I talked to, he said, well, he had twin siblings when he was 4. And he was like, my parents didn't do that on purpose to ruin my life. He's like. But it did kind of really throw me off my game. And so you can see how these things from our childhood, though they're not done to us purposefully, can really affect then how we transform transition into adulthood. So that makes a lot of sense. You're the man of the house for the majority of the year. You know, you have this high pressure. Then you, you step into this high pressure job and then you end up with these physical symptoms. You've got exhaustion. You wrote, my life was a frenzied mess. Years had passed since I'd slept with any regularity. Two years since I had felt any emotional connection with God. And I had. I was frequently using the term burnt out to describe my job. So your family says, why don't you go away for a little bit just and have a little bit of time, like regroup, have a little bit of silence. And this is where you met Ivan? Yeah, and this is like a pivotal point in the book, which is bringing up a question, I think, that so many people have, which is why does it appear that God doesn't answer some prayers? So can you talk about the situation of meeting Ivan? You're not. You're wanting to kind of like regroup and not really talk to anyone. And Ivan's gonna kind of share his whole life story. Can you talk about when that happened?
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C
Yeah. So this was right about the four and a half year mark in that five year journey with insomnia. And. And I went away and I was actually, basically, I was in silence. I was staying at someone's house and I was just in silence. And the night before, I had read Psalm 127 where it says, it's in vain that you go to bed late and you wake early, eating the bread of anxious toil. And I broke. I was in the kitchen and I remember exactly where I was. And I Broke. And I just started weeping because I realized that I had been feasting on my anxiety. It gave me this. This weird illusion of control. The neurotic. It presents an illusion of control. It's a grasping. And I was grasping for all of these things, but I was unwilling to stop, to slow down, and to be grasped by God's holiness, his goodness, his faithfulness, his otherness, the fact that he was beyond me. He was beyond my ability to accomplish something or to perform or to do whatever I thought I needed to do. And I remember I woke that morning, and this is my first good night of sleep, Jenny. And for whatever it was, four and a half years, and I think I slept about 11 hours. And I woke up that morning, and the holy spirit whispered something. And I don't know how much you've studied the Theta state, when you're coming out of sleep and you're coming into that state of being awake, It's a really unique state where you're kind of between the two worlds. It's a place of liminality, where you're aware of an interior reality as you're processing the exterior world, which. That's a whole nother conversation about why screens are so dangerous first thing in the morning, if we want to get into that one. Like, that's all. Like, that's a. We could dive deep into that one. But. But I woke, and it was so clear to me, Jenny, that God was going to show me something about prayer that would change my life and that I would write about it. And I was like, God, I don't want to write on prayer. I already think I'm terrible at prayer. I did a year internship after school. That was a prayer internship. And I thought I was garbage at prayer. Like, I left that year internship thingy. Like, thank God there are people in this world who are actually good at praying, because I'm not one of those. And so I felt like grasping again. I'm like, gosh, I don't want to grasp. But I got up, and I went into nature. I went on this long walk, and there was a holy residue that would not wash off. And I'm walking through, and then I walk on the beach, and I walk back to the house I was staying at, and I'm walking past this front porch, and I hear, like, a distinguished old man southern accent say, good morning, young man. And I swear, I stop, and I look around. I'm like, was that the voice of God? Because I look around, I don't see anyone, you know, And I'm having this battle. Like, I'm taking a battle of silence, basically. And I'm, like, looking around. No one's there. I'm like, oh, okay. So I put my head down. I keep walking. He goes. I said, good morning, young man. And then I turned to the left. He was right there. And I could see him. He was hidden behind a tree before, and I could see him. Anyway, I didn't want to talk to him. I'm like, what do I do? I'm supposed to not be talking to anyone. And I just sense the Holy Spirit intimation in my spirit. Just said, like, hey, go talk to him. Ended up talking to him for four hours. Found out he had terminal. Terminal cancer. And then a whole thing came out of that whole story. His wife, actually. There's too much for me to share there. But let me say this about what happened with Ivan. I prayed for him. I'm like, God, you're gonna heal him. Like, you've asked me to lean into prayer, and you're gonna show me the power of prayer, and he's gonna be healed. And this is gonna be an amaz testimony. And long story short, he passed four months later. And I was like, God, what the heck?
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B
Yeah, that's confusing.
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C
Like, this is. This is weird. Like, what are you doing? Like, are you cruel? Like, what. What kind of message are you sending here?
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B
Yeah.
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C
And that was the catalyst, Jenny, for me, engaging what I would call the robustness of prayer that is so far, so far beyond performance or transaction, that brings us into a prayerfulness that moves into every part of our lives and energizes our journey. And. And out of that experience has come really what I've dedicated to my life. Dedicated my life to these last several years.
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B
So, I mean, this is. This is the. I think one of the bigger looming questions in the world of faith, which is, you know, there's these verses that say, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed.
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C
Yeah.
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B
You know, you could ask this mountain to move from here to there, and it will. And, you know, there's those verses like, oh, you have little faith. And, you know, you talk a lot in this book, Words with God, and then also in the prayer journal, you know, kind of guiding people through a deeper prayer life. You talk about unanswered prayers, and you wrote, I know prayer is so much more than getting what we ask for, but for most of us. And this is kind of related to everything else, like, about control and, you know, trying to. Like you said, I stay up late. Like, let me make sure things are working out well.
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C
Yeah.
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B
For most of us, even if it's only on a subconscious level, prayer is judged by its effectiveness. So how can we change? How and why should we change our assessment.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Of how effective our prayer is.
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C
Yeah. And that's. I mean, that is such a great question. And what I would bring to mind is Jesus in the garden, because I Garden of Gethsemane. I think it shows the vulnerability of Jesus's prayer life. And in that moment, we see a convergence of three ideas. We see a son who is very specific. Father, if there's any way, any other way, any other way we could do this, please let it be so. Right. And so he's praying. A very specific request. In the New Testament, the word ask a teo, it means to almost place a demand on someone. It's. It's not a weak ask. It's a bold ask. Now, where we miss it is communicates. You have the right to ask. It doesn't mean that you're always going to get what you're asking for. It means you always have the right to ask because you belong in your Father's presence. That's the key. So we're invited to be specific, and then we're also invited to be surrendered through Jesus example. Not my will, but yours be done. Most of us, Jenny, what we want to do is we want it to either be specific. I'm going to pray, and God's going to do exactly what I'm going to say, because I'm going to say in Jesus's name, Amen. And I'm going to call the mountain, I'm going to send it to the ocean. Like whatever it is, whatever the language they're using, or they slink into this pseudo. I'm going to call it pseudo surrender, where it's just like, you know, whatever. Whatever is going to be is going to be. And the problem is there's no active prayer life there because they haven't articulated something to surrender. How can you surrender something that's nebulous? You need to have something specific in order to surrender it. So, like with anything, the wisdom's in the paradox. So you have this idea of being specific and being surrendered and then the steadfastness, which is what's in between. And Jesus models this where he's praying, he's inviting other people to pray with him. That steadfastness is actually what guides us into what is true within our request. It guides us into that place where we're sensitive to how the spirit is leading us. I think of Jesus's admonition where he says, ask, seek, knock. Think about that transition. Okay, so ask. We start by articulating. This is what I'm praying for. This is what I'm asking for. Once we do the hard work to ask, and when we ask, we become aware, then we can start seeking. Then we start connecting the dots. Then we start seeing God move in our everyday lives. We start to notice things that we didn't notice before. And then we arrive at the place of knock, which is actually a place of intimacy. And I Love what Revelation 3. 20 says. Says that Jesus is knocking at the door. So we come to the point of knocking, but then we actually notice that, wait, this is all about intimacy. So the journey of asking, seeking, and knocking is actually about intimacy. So you. You reference this idea of faith, and you said. Did you say faith the size of a mustard seed or faith like a mustard seed?
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B
Well, I don't know what it is. You're gonna know better. It's like, it's a verse, but I could have misquoted it. So.
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C
So here's the thing, though. It's a common. That's a verse that's quoted like, faith the size of a mustard seed. But the correct way to translate that is faith like a mustard seed. And the significance about mustard seeds, yeah, definitely, we.
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B
I think I misquoted it because people always talk about how small a mustard seed is.
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C
Exactly. But here's actually the significance of it. The mustard seed has the ability to slowly, through its root systems, break and move mountains. And so when Jesus was giving that message, he's actually in a place where they would see mustard seeds around them that are actually in the mountains, that would have been breaking the mountains with their root system, and life would be coming forth from the mountain.
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A
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C
So when. When I share that. Listen, there. There's something beautiful about a small measure of faith, too. I'm not. I'm not saying that we're necessarily missing it when we say that, but faith has this ability in our lives to bring us into attention that locates things in us that we otherwise couldn't see and positions us to do things that we otherwise couldn't do.
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B
It's a slow move.
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C
It is.
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B
That's so interesting. I did not know that, Addison. I had always focused on the size of it because it's the smallest seed. But it's. I mean, in that perspective, it's just about a slow growth and slow movement. That's so interesting. It kind. It relates to this because you're talking about intimacy. Right. That was the last one. Ask, seek, knock. You had this sentence in here that was like, this is a rather shocking statement.
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C
Oh, gosh.
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B
Too many people use prayer as a means to bypass God. And that's related, Right. The purpose is not for some miracle. That's kind of like what this book is going for, right? Like the purpose. You might. It might happen, but the purpose is relationship. So can you talk about someone who will be utterly confused by a statement of that? You know, prayer for some.
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C
Sure.
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B
You're bypassing God altogether.
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C
Yeah, no, that's. It's a. I've had that question so many times because people read that, and I also make a Statement. It's like we use prayer as a mechanism for idolatry. Like what? No. And so here's what I would say. I'm going to go back to the garden because I think this is really helpful. When you look at what they had in the garden, Adam and Eve, they would walk with God in the cool of the day. In other words, God would give them wisdom at the frequency or at the pace of relationship. So it wasn't just about having all the knowledge, all of the answers, figuring out the things, looking at the work that you do. It wasn't about researching all of the stuff, knowing all, everything that's going on. This illusion of, you know, omniscience. I can know everything, Omnipotence, I have all power through my phone. Like that idea. No, we're walking relationally. We're experiencing the reality of this world relationally. But then what did they choose to do? They said, actually, we want the knowledge of good and evil. We want the answers. We want to know when, how, why, what. We want to be God's over our domain. So when it comes to prayer, most people, when they think of prayer, they think of prayer in terms of the knowledge of good and evil. Man, if I could just figure out the right words to pray, if I could figure out the right framework, if I could just do this, if I could just do that, if I could be more of this or I could be more of that. It's extremely limited to their knowledge base rather than, hey, God's invited me to go outside and walk with him in the cool of the day so I can receive from him what is beyond me. That way I can enter into something that is beyond what I currently know. And prayer is the invitation to not just engage the projection of your reality of God, but to actually encounter God as he truly is. And that's why even the Lord's Prayer that Jesus gives us in Matthew 6 and Luke 11, it invites us into paradox. Our Heavenly Father, who is the Holy One, it talks about kingdom of heaven, talks about his will, our will. And you see him move like we're moving through what I would call like the tensions or the paradox of life. And that leads us to a place where we can engage our world and ourselves with fresh eyes.
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B
What a different perspective on prayer. It's so interesting you have this quote in here, Our society, It's by Eugene Peterson. Our society is cheapened, cheapened by expectations of miracles. God is a supernatural shortcut so we don't have to engage in the deeply dimensional, endlessly difficult Soaring, glorious task of being human beings living by faith. Prayer is a gateway to the miraculous, but also how we recognize the miraculous all around us. Really interesting, intriguing book about the unanswered prayers and different ways that you can look at it. And then also you go into the circle of prayer using These words, these 8P words, people in presence and power. People can pick up the book and check that out. Words with God trading boring, empty prayers for real connection. Boring, empty prayer for real connection. A big premise of the book is also God as Father.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And you talked about how, and I think this is a very common view is that people are convinced that God is distant and angry and they don't have a good. Well, I mean, obviously there's a lot of kids that grow up without a dad. So.
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C
Yeah.
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B
What would you say to, you know, parents who are really trying to get the message across to their kids of what the Father God relationship is for them?
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C
Yeah, that's. That is the question. That's. That's such a great question. Even when you look at what Jesus did when he was teaching us to pray. Right. In Greek, the first word is actually father. So he. He knew. He knew what he was doing when he's inviting us to pray. Father. He knew for some of us that would be really difficult because our father was absent or that relationship with our Father is a source of pain. And for most of us, even those of us who had amazing fathers, it's a bit of a mixed bag because the father figure that in a child's life is such a. Such an important part of their development and the absent is felt keenly in so many different ways. And so when we're talking about this idea of the Father, I recognize that we have to dismantle some things when it comes to the idea of God. Most of us, when it comes to the religious notion of God, is this God, he must be satisfied through or with our performance. And so people start to believe that I've got to get my stuff together before I can be in the presence of God. And we start to believe what I would call like the gospel of sin management. Like, I've got to figure out how to manage my sin, then I can go into the presence of God. But the writer of Hebrews, and I think. I think the Book of Hebrews, if people want to dive into this. But the Book of Hebrews is probably one of the best summaries of the idea of how God engages us and how we should engage God as father and Jesus. And when we look at his life and what he invited us into, he was, he was very clear, this is my Father and your father, my God, your God. And when we read Hebrews 4 it tells us that we have this high priest and Jesus who can sympathize with us because he's navigated our struggles, he's navigated our pain. And he tells us to approach the throne of grace with mercy, throne of grace with boldness, where we find mercy and grace to help in our time of need. And later in the book of Hebrews it says that what needs to be cleansed is not our idea of sin because we actually can't even understand the extent of our sin. What needs to be cleansed is the consciousness of the worshiper and what the accuser does. Like, hey, once you get your stuff together then you can go to the Father. Whereas the writer of Hebrews makes it very clear, no, no, you run when you feel the most broken, the most confused, the most spent. That is when you run into the presence of your Father. That's where you find mercy and grace to help in your time of need. And the, the chief end, if you will, of the work of the Spirit is to actually cleanse the consciousness of the worshiper where they're not caught in the self conscious loop and, but rather they become God conscious or God aware. And the, the chief act of confession isn't so much confessing the sin, although that's a part of it, that's secondary to confessing God's goodness, his, his strength, his love, his provision over our lives. And then from that place of knowing and being known, then we confess our sins.
- [29:40]
B
Wow, this is a huge premise of the book, you say. Well it was a quote. I think the mission of the church is contained in that word, Father. The failure of the church is highlighted in that word. It just is about learning. What does that really mean? And how do you disconnect if you've had poor experiences or no experiences at all with the father figure? But this has comes up so much. You wrote there's a hundred references to God as father in just 13 chapter section of the Bible. This lengthy discourse is a deluge of fatherly tenderness, full of instruction and warming. Maybe warning, I might have a typo. It's probably warning. Full of instruction and warning, encouragement and affection, validation and promise. Everything that we need to journey the treacherous and exciting road ahead. And you wrote, God's thoughts toward us outnumber the grains of sand that are scattered across the earth. 1 cubic feet of sand, foot of sand 1 I'm botching. This has roughly 1 million grains. So you do the math. So the premise here, and the journal will help you to work through this as well, is that this is just not, you know, put in your request, you know, like you're at the deli, you know, here's your number, what's your request, you know, what's the next thing that really, it's pursuing this relationship with God the Father. And I think a really good example that you gave in the book was about. And I think that this relates really well with getting outside. Someone told me recently that they, they had some sort of a reasoning to believe that Jesus walked about 40,000 steps a day.
- [31:17]
C
Wow. Wow. 40,000 steps.
- [31:19]
B
40,000 steps. So my dad walks 20,000 steps a day. And I was like, dad, I was like, you're being beat. So 40,000 steps a day. And it was really interesting because in your book you talk about how his paths actually seemed rather aimless. They were not like plotted out ahead. You know, kind of like what we talked about at the very beginning. What am I going to do next and what's my goal and what's my five year plan? It's like Jesus, he's just wandering around miles a day, just here to there, but he knew where to go because he's connected to the Father. So can you talk about that? That's the part where you can, like, if your faith is strong there, you can kind of let go of. The word that God brought up at the beginning is toil.
- [32:06]
C
Yeah, no, that's good. When, when we read verses like 1st Thessalonians 5, 17 or Romans 12, 12, Ephesians 6, 18, this idea of praying without ceasing. People hear that and they're like, oh my goodness, I struggle to pray for five minutes first thing in the morning. How in the world am I supposed to pray without ceasing? And specifically, if you look at 1 Thessalonians 5, the invitation there, if you dig into the Greek, is actually to enter into a state of rest and to pray from a place of rest. I call it deliverance from the frantic inaction of our day, where you're just walking through and you're aware of what's going on, you're like, oh, I'm going to go over here. Oh, I'm going to go over there. And the amazing truth is, and this is what Jesus is getting at, Matthew 6, he's like, hey, don't worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow's going to have cares and concerns of its own. Jesus isn't saying, hey, don't be forward thinking what he's saying. He's saying insight leads to foresight. The people who are present to the moment, whether it's your kids, whether it's opportunity, whether it's relationship, whatever it may be, when you're present, then you will see what needs to happen through the present moment. You don't see the future around the day. You see the future by being present to the day. And I've seen that because I've been the one. I've been like the executive who's like, man, I've got to figure out this, I got to figure out that. And it's amazing, Jenny, as I've learned to walk with God, going back to the idea of walking with God in the cool of the day. God will show me things about three years from now, five years from now, ten years from now that I need to know. But it's always through today. And it clarifies, oh, this is what I'm responsible for. Responsible to today. But here's the thing. When most people, when they take a prayer, because Barna did a study on prayer, it's like 98% of people don't feel good about their prayer life. Most people, when they think of prayer, they think of this performative posture. It's singular, it's situational, it's locational. Rather than this idea of when you look at Jesus's life, he lived in connection with the Father. John 5, it says, Jesus says, I only do what I see my Father doing. And in John 16, he tells me, it's better for you that I go away, because if I go away, my spirit's going to come. And all of this stuff that's external that you can't really grasp right now, it's going to become real to you by my spirit. But what the enemy does, and this is what the accuser is so good at, going back to the Father. So the Father spoke beloved identity over Jesus at the moment of baptism. This is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased. And then the Spirit leads him into the real world, into the desert. And what's the first thing the accuser says? If you're really the Son of God? I mean, the Father just said he's the Son. Now the accuser saying, if you're really the Son of God, do something practical, do something spectacular, do something religious, go up on top of that temple, throw yourself down, and the accuser will come in. And that voice, I call it the self conscious loop, that voice comes in and it tells you, hey, no, you got to do this. Hey, you got to do that. Hey, you got to do that. And it keeps us from being present to the presence of God and present to the presence of the people in our life who are most important in that moment.
- [35:18]
B
I love that you brought that up because that is another part of the book that I really was drawn to is the part about being present. Most of us spend our lives living anywhere but the present.
- [35:29]
A
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- [36:39]
B
It's interesting when you talked about the wanderings of Jesus, that they almost seemed aimless. It reminded me of your story with Ivan because that was super random. And then it frames this book in this lens that a lot of people are used to, which is like, well, I prayed for something and it didn't happen. So obviously no, prayers don't work. And what I think exceptional about it obviously is Jesus was perfect, that your situation was coming out of some brokenness. I mean, you talked about you like your body system was shutting down. And you said you were captive to the belief that there was important work to be done and you, you know, you had to contribute. You said, my wife told me the world is going to spin without your contribution. You're in this spot where you're really having to make some significant Change. And even still, right at, right off the bat, God is meeting you in your story and giving guidance there. I guess I love that because you're like, okay, well, of course Jesus is going to know where to go, you know, because he's perfect. But. But even in our brokenness and in our situation might feel hopeless, the direction is going to be there.
- [37:48]
C
Well, even the idea of grace, Jenny, grace literally means to stoop. And so Jesus is stooping into whatever, whatever surrender you can give him. I mean, it might, it might be a really weak surrender. If you give him something, though, he's going to stoop into that.
- [38:03]
B
Yeah.
- [38:03]
C
And then it's amazing how he forms the capacity in us. It's that Philippians 2, the will to do his will, where he starts working some things out, where we all of a sudden realize, wow, we can ask for more, we can give more, we can believe more, but we realize it's not a reflection of our, of our own strength. It's actually a reflection of our ability to surrender and to let go.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah.
- [38:29]
B
Yeah. What a book. So interesting, you know, you don't know what you're going to expect, what to expect. Words with God trading boring, empty prayer for real connection. And I was like, oh, this really gives me a different perspective. I mean, I'm like, we grew up going to church and I'm like, I believe in prayer. And then I was like, oh, maybe I had some misconceptions or there's different ways for me to look at this. So talking about the presence, you know, you did, you are. You talked about that already and just did such an incredible job about talking about, you know, being in the moment, maybe knowing, you know, or having things to look forward to, but living in the moment. But you use this phrase, faith is power, worry is anti power. I thought that was great. You're going from one to the other. Faith is going to bring you clarity. Worry is going to deliver confusion. Faith is going to be get action. Worry is going to create inaction. Faith is going to give us eyes for the moment. Worry blinds us to the sacred. Now those are really powerful words and I would love if you would just talk a little bit more about because, I mean, we're, we're living in a culture where almost everyone feels anxious. I mean, it's just part of the vernacular. And when someone would say, do not worry about tomorrow, people will be like, yeah, right.
- [39:47]
C
Oh, man, Jenny, this one is so. This is so loaded. What I, what I would say, I'll just make a statement. I firmly believe that prayer is the antidote to anxiety. And I'm not. And when I say prayer, I'm not describing the prayer. That is like, you're not praying enough. You're not frantic asking. Yeah, like, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about. And I describe it as being in tune with what is most real. That type of prayer where you're. Where you're living with a sensitivity to the spirit of God who energizes all things. God upholds this world by the word of his power. You realize you're living in a world that's so much bigger than you, so much bigger than your control, so much bigger than your ability to grasp. And there's a settledness that comes with that type of surrender. It's like for me, I was taking all sorts of sleep aid stuff. I mean, you name it, I tried it, I took it. I did the pillows, I did the blackout curtains. I did the wind out dude routines. I did blue light, morning, night. I did all of it. Okay, Jenny, you name it, I did it. I don't take anything now. I sleep wonderfully every single night. I even sometimes now I have some bad habits where it's like, maybe I wasn't following my sleep routine the right way, things like that, but God has blessed me with sleep. It is a gift. You know what I learned, though? Through the battle of insomnia, most people. And this ties back to what you're asking, because I think it's connected. Most people, when they think of the battle of insomnia, they think about how they go to bed at night. But I actually tell people, I'm like, no, actually, insomnia is less about how you go to bed. It's actually more about how you wake up. You can't control how you go to bed, but you can surrender how you wake up in the morning. And considering we live in a world, Jenny, where most people are on their phones, within five minutes of waking up, they're already there. Are you familiar with the reticular activating system? A little bit. So. So they're coming out of sleep. So they're in a state of profound sensitivity. And they're scrolling, they're looking at stuff that is immediately feeding when they're at a very sensitive state. It's feeding this idea that they're not enough. It's feeding anger, it's feeding anxiety. All of the things that the algorithms use to get your attention right. If you think they're trying to help you, they're not. They Want your attention. Attention is the currency of our day. But when we do what the psalmist says in Psalm 5, in the morning, Lord, you hear my voice in the morning, I prepare a sacrifice for you. The sacrifice is attention. And I watch when we give God our attention first thing in the morning, then our attention isn't going to be manipulated by anxiety the rest of the day. So it's that surrender of attention. So I've been calling people into the first hour challenge. I'm like, listen, the first hour of the day, just don't touch your phone. Yeah, put your phone in a different room. First hour of the day, look. And if you're going to go longer than that, that's fine. But if you're like, I don't know, I could do that. Look, I've been doing that for years. And there has.
- [42:45]
B
I mean, interesting thing for people to say. I don't know if I can do it. You're like, well, guess what? In 1986, people did that.
- [42:51]
C
People did that. I know, right? People used to do that. And. And so I just tell her, like, look, your brain. Your brain state when you wake in the morning is in something called theta state, which has to do with your brain waves and the frequency of your brain waves. That is a really sensitive place to be. And you're almost setting the table for how you're going to engage the rest of the day. Then you move from theta state into alpha state. That's a state where you're sensitive to creativity, possibility, novelty. And if you protect those movements in the morning by going outside, walking outside, just being in nature, the beauty about nature. You see this in places like Romans 1, Psalm 19, Psalm 29 is. It invites you into the otherness of God, the largeness, the spaciousness, I think, of what Psalm 19 verse. Psalm 119 verse. I think it's verse 92. It says, if I wouldn't have made your world my plaything, like, think of this world, and I love this like God's world, as our plaything. The best translation in Hebrew is plaything. If I wouldn't have made your world my plaything, I would have perished in my pain. So many of us, like, we're perishing in the pain of anxiety and control because we haven't learned how to make this world his plaything first. Before we go out and we try to solve all the things or do all this stuff or take on the vicarious trauma that's going to be dumped on you the moment you get on social media that we're Actually not prepared or equipped to process in a healthy way. So, listen, I'm not anti smartphones, although I'm a big fan of getting people off screens. But I am. I am a big fan of sacrificing attention, particularly in the mo. In the morning and at night when you're transitioning in and out of sleep. Because what it does, it allows you to synthesize your understanding of the world and your understanding of purpose in ways that bypass your conscious mind.
- [44:48]
B
I mean, it is really interesting, Addison, because the verse says, seek first. Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added unto you as well. And first means first.
- [44:59]
C
Yes, that's right. And you tell people, don't be anxious. It was like, okay, I'm trying not to be anxious. You know, like, we're. We're always going after the leaves, if you will, rather than going after the tree. And the tree. I don't know if you saw this, but Angela Duckworth, she wrote the book Grit, and she did a commencement speech at Bates up in Maine. She spent 22 minutes telling these Bates graduates to basically get off their phones.
- [45:25]
B
Wow.
- [45:25]
C
I didn't see it. That's the world that we live in now. The commencement speech at a prestigious liberal arts school is basically the author of Grit telling them, hey, get off your phones. She actually said that their relationship with their phones is just as significant as the degree that they're graduating with and the place that they're going to land their first job. And. And so we have to understand that this kind of. Okay, the phone gives you an illusion of omnipresence. Omni. Power. Right. Omniscience. All knowledge.
- [46:00]
A
Yeah.
- [46:00]
C
And only God gets to have that. When we try to take God's job, we lose his peace. And so I. I tell people, like, look, the sacrifice of attention in a world that's paying billions of dollars for your attention, the sacrifice of attention is actually the key to getting in on what God is doing. And it's the key to letting go of the control that leads to anxiety.
- [46:31]
B
I mean, this is very, very practical. And especially if you're listening and you're a parent, and, you know, the screens are just a thing that comes up. But I love this Theta. I love when all of the science starts to, like, I don't know, prove is not the right word, but, like, come alongside Scripture, and you're like, well, it says seek first. So that would be, like, the first thing that you do as opposed to looking at your phone. And you're like, well, this matches up with the brainwaves. It's so interesting. And I think we just ignore it. Like, do not worry. Do not be anxious about anything. But in everything with prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to God and you have to. And then, you know, well, someone will be like, well, here's the signs of gratitude. It really does change your brain. It's so interesting. Yeah. So this book is a lot about being present. You are. The moment you are in is too important to ignore, for everything happens in the eternal now. So there's no point in worrying. Because I like this quote, start worrying. Details to follow becomes this habit loop that you have. And then we spend half of our waking hours thinking about the non present and disengaged from what we're. You know, what we're actually doing. Half, half. Almost half of our waking hours thinking, that's a.
- [47:44]
C
That's a Harvard study. Wow.
- [47:47]
B
Wow. Yeah. So a lot of practical things in here about prayer, about connecting with God, about being in the present. Were you intending from the very beginning to write the prayer journal or did you feel like people read the book until. And you're like, well, maybe they need a little bit more help.
- [48:03]
C
Yeah, so that's actually what happens. The. The latter because I wrote the book and my editor told me. She said, addison, people are. You're. You're explaining prayer in a way that when people engage this, they're going to want to practice this, they're going to want to live it. You're giving a lot of principles. We would love to give them practices that they can enter into. And it's, it's. And she called it. She said, like, you need to put something in the book, like an email or something, because I'm really not on social media and stuff like that. I said, okay, I'll put an email. I did. I put an email. I put an email in the back of the book and I said, look, if this has spoken to you and you want to go deeper, well, Jenny, I put that email in there and now we're 50,000 people have been like, hey, I'd love to go deeper in this life of prayer, a living prayer. And so what happened from that is I started sending prayer guides. So I said, I sent a prayer guide every other week, every other Sunday. I sent a prayer guide to this group of people. And it's something about living prayer. Like it's always like, okay, how do we bring prayer into our everyday lives? What does that actually look like? And so I do that every other week. And Then they're like, could you do a 40 day journal that then is, is accessible but has a clear framework, but it doesn't reduce prayer to a formula. And so that's what the journal turned into. And, and yeah, I'm really, really grateful. What's. Here's what's so special for me. Like, I just was responding to a message from a lady yesterday. She sent me a message. 85 years old. 85 years old. I know that because she said that. Anyway, she gave me her life story. 85 years old. And she said, addison, I read this book. She, I've been, she said, I've been a Christian since 1973. And she said, I've never known what it's like to have an intimate relationship with God.
- [49:50]
B
Wow.
- [49:50]
C
And she said, I read this book and, and she's just like. And I write this with tears. She's like, I am now experiencing the closeness of God the Father. I had another Gentleman in his 80s reach out to me and said, I can only imagine what I, what my life would have been like if I would have read this book four decades ago. His daughter actually reached out to me after he passed and asked. She said, that book changes life. Is there any way you could do. Do his funeral? Which I was actually able to fly into Savannah and do his funeral in Savannah, which was a, A beautiful thing that I got to do that. But what I love, Jenny, is what I'm hearing from people who are, who've lived twice as much life as me, say, hey, I now am experiencing a closeness and a connectedness not just to God, but to who I am, like, who God uniquely made me to be. And that's translating into a different way of showing up and doing life with the people who matter most to me. And that for me, like, the presence of God and the presence of the people who God has placed in our life, understanding those and how they intersect through our lives, that's where the kingdom of God advances. And so, so that's. That's my passion.
- [51:04]
B
What a story, Addison. Coming out of feeling like your body's shutting down. The phrase you used was your interior life was disintegrating. Most of the time I felt as if I were working with only a fraction of myself. Wow. And now you've got all of these people that emailed you. I was like, that's interesting. You're like, at the end, you're like, I'm a bit reclusive and don't spend much time on social platforms, but here's my personal email address. I welcome your words. I love that. And then here's the, you know, the natural outpouring of that is then people really want something to, you know, to be a guide for them for 40. For 40 days. So this is the one that just came out in November, Words with God, the prayer journal. So you grab them both. You can do them together simultaneously. Read the book and do the journal. I thought, well, let's talk just a teeny bit about the journal so people can understand. The components here are reflect. So there's a scripture or quote re center. There's rest. And you wrote it's easy to forget that it can. Key component of prayer is resting in God's sufficiency. Do you know, there is this verse I thought about when you brought up
- [52:12]
A
at the very beginning because we were
- [52:13]
B
talking about the word toil. I've always really liked this one. This is from Proverbs 10, the blessing of the Lord. It makes truly rich and he adds no sorrow with it. Neither does toiling increase it. Gosh, I love that. So you're talking about resting in God's sufficiency. Yeah, you know, I think we're. This is a society of toiling, of hustling. So you say rest is important because we rest in God's sufficiency, his authority, his holiness, his presence, his goodness. Prayer is less about work and more about rest. It's also less about speaking and more about silence. So I thought, let's at least talk about one day so people can get a sense of, of what you're, what they're going to be experiencing in this Words with God prayer journal. So I want to talk about day nine, because day nine. Okay, you brought this up earlier, like the verse of pray without ceasing. So then people are like, well, how long should I pray?
- [53:03]
C
How long should I pray?
- [53:04]
B
Tell me, tell me how many minutes? And yeah, well, I guess you've already kind of talked about that one, so maybe we won't do that one. But that's day nine. So there's reflect, recenter, rest, receive and respond. These are the components in all of the days. So actually, let's do day 22. Here's this one. Your, your father knows what you need before you ask him. So especially if you're listening in your parent, you're, you know, you've got to explain this to your kids or kids are listening. That is rather confusing that God already knows what you need, but he wants you to ask him.
- [53:34]
C
Yeah, and what I write in here is healthy prayer leads us into creative Tension forming space for us to better understand our Father's nature. So even as a father of kids, it's almost like when they learn how to articulate what they're asking for, it's almost like they're ready to receive what they're asking for. And my job as a father is to help my children receive what I have to give them in a way that doesn't destroy them, but causes them to flourish in life. And I like to say, anything that God is keeping from us, quote, unquote from us, he's keeping for us that idea. And so when, when we look at, look at the framework here. So every single day, all 40 days, the reflect is something that it's going to make you go, huh? About prayer. Like, just something a little like, huh? I want to challenge people's comfort with the domain of prayer because I firmly believe the domain of prayer is so much greater than any of us understand as far as where God wants to meet with us, how he speaks, how he reveals himself, how he connects the dots in our lives. So reflect is the first movement. And then recenter. And I give a breath prayer in the Words with God books just simply, I am here. The deep breath I have people do. It's just like, breathe in, I am here. Breathe out. I mean, this is great. You just walk it outside, enjoying a beautiful day. Breathe it. I am here. What is three part surrender? I'm in this space, so I'm going to be in this space. I can't be in a different space. I'm in this space. The second part is, I'm in this moment of time. I can't be in a different moment of time. I'm here, so I'm going to be here. And the third is the great I am. God has promised to be here with us. And so for me, when I pray that those three words people like, is that a prayer? Yes, that is a prayer. Yes, it's only three words, but that is a powerful prayer. And so now, I mean, I have people call to me all the time. They're like, I pray I am here all the time. And I love it. Like it's become theirs. And that's. That was always my intent for that prayer. And then rest. So it starts with reflect, like, hey, let's challenge this idea of God. Then let's take a holy deep breath recenter. And then let's rest. Most people try to go to rest too quickly, like, oh, I've got a rest. Rest is hard. Rest is really hard to enter into the Writer of Hebrews and Hebrews 4 talks about is like, they strive to enter rest. Like, how do you strive to enter rest? It's not easy to enter rest. So I give a framework. Like, what thoughts are keeping you from entering rest today? Capture and release them. Here, just write it down. Real quickly. Write it down. What is that? And then receive. What is God saying to you? What. What is he given to you? And then also, what are you asking God for? Like, be clear. What are those. What are those things, those articulations that are coming out of you if you're being honest? Like, what is that? God loves it when we bring those requests. Not like petulant children, but as sons and daughters who know we belong in our Father's presence and he wants to give his very nature to us. That's his goal. And then respond is simply like, what is God inviting you into today? Because faith becomes real. And this is what James is getting at. In James, too, he's differentiated between faith and works, because faith becomes real when it's actually embodied. Before that, it's just theory, but when you go out and you take a step and you make a move, even as you were saying, even if it's imperfect, even if it's like, okay, God, I'm going to take a step. I need you to show up. God has a way of guiding those who move their feet.
- [57:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this. And, you know, I think the. The stories really drive it home. Like, there was a story in there about the lawnmower that was, like, a really powerful story and good for people that are trying to get outside. So that's.
- [57:22]
C
You did read this book? You. You did read it?
- [57:24]
B
I. I did read the book. I read all the books. It's a fantastic one, and it will really help you with your prayer life, and it will really help you to understand things. Maybe even if you've read the Bible for a really long time that you didn't understand before you write, 90% of Americans believe in a higher power. So this is really relatable for 9 out of 10 people. Addison, it's an honor to get a chance to meet with you. Really fun to talk with you. Just a couple weeks ago, talking with your dad. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [57:56]
C
Oh, man. I would play. I would say playing street hockey with my dad and my brothers behind Goodings. There was a really smooth asphalt in the back. Like, they had just poured it, so it was silky. And we would go out there. This is Mighty Ducks days, you know, like, we're talking early 90s. We would go out there and we would play street hockey with the. The hockey pucks, the hockey balls, whatever it was. We would get in trucks. Some of our neighbors had trucks. We put hockey goals in there. We'd go down there, and we would play for hours. It was so special.
- [58:27]
B
The best. The best. That's what childhood should be. Addison, thank you so much for being here. I know you. You work for. Before we wrap it up, do. These are the two books, but tell us really briefly about Messenger International.
- [58:40]
C
Yeah, I get. I get the privilege of serving as the president of messenger. And basically our goal is to help people discover that they're everyday messengers. Like, we believe that God reveals his story through lives, individual lives, and through the. The collective representation of his church. So our goal is to empower messengers. So we translate and give away to resources to virtually everyone, everywhere. We've given away close to 100 million translated discipleship resources we have at. Messenger X has tons of free discipleship content on it. We have millions of users on that app. So that's. That's Messenger X Com. And then as far as the book in the journal, rediscoverprayer.com is the website that I started after people started messaging me about wanting to learn more. And so that's where people can sign up for those prayer guides and then the book and journal, wherever books are sold.
- [59:29]
B
Yeah. Addison, thanks so much for being here.
- [59:32]
C
Thank you, Jenny.
- [59:33]
B
All right. It was so good. I wanted to ask about your cataract, but we ran out of time. Do you still have a foggy spot?
- [59:39]
C
It's not just a foggy spot. It's my entire vision for one.
- [59:43]
B
Just one eye.
- [59:44]
C
Like, so. So am I. Am I right? Yeah. So, okay, so that talk about an embodied revelation.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah.
- [59:52]
C
So my. So just what. I actually have learned more about my cataract since I wrote Words with God. I was. I was with an eye doctor. She was an ophthalmologist. And she asked me. She said, were you a forceps delivery? Because she was looking at my eye, and she goes, are you. Were you a forceps delivery? And I said, I was. And she said it was the forceps. She's like, that's what did it. And then my mom and I went, like. We looked at my baby pictures right after I was born, and sure, I mean, I came out black and blue, but this eye in particular was just all swollen over all that kind of stuff. So. Jenny, Because My brain. And this is the power that, like, the difference between the brain, the mind. My brain is still convinced that I see the world through a cataract. So it superimposes a fog on my lens, even though my lens is perfectly clear.
- [60:43]
B
That is wild.
- [60:44]
C
Yeah. Just. It's wildness.
- [60:47]
B
But that is. That is an interesting parallel.
- [60:50]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:52]
B
To how we see life.
- [60:54]
C
Absolutely. I was. Do you know Dr. Lee Warren is.
- [60:57]
B
I just talked to him today.
- [60:59]
C
Are you kidding me?
- [61:00]
B
Yeah, like, at, like two hours ago.
- [61:03]
C
I was. I was talking with Dr. Lee Warren today.
- [61:06]
B
That's so bizarre.
- [61:07]
C
I'm not. Hold on. What time were you talking. I was talking to him at 10:30. We talked from 10:30 to 11:30 Central Time today.
- [61:14]
B
Okay, we talked from. Where's my little list of people we talked from? Okay, it's three where I am. So three to four, two to three, one o'.
- [61:26]
A
Clock.
- [61:26]
B
No, wait, hold on. It might have even been noon. Hold on.
- [61:31]
C
What time did you drive?
- [61:32]
B
So I can't.
- [61:33]
A
I can't.
- [61:33]
C
10:30 to 11:30 Central Time.
- [61:35]
B
Okay. And I was 1 to 2 Eastern Time.
- [61:39]
C
So 12 to 1 Central Time. So we talked to Dr. Lee Ward, 30 minutes apart today. I wasn't talking to him for a podcast. We're friends. And I've asked him. I've asked him to do the forward, because the new book on prayer that I'm writing that comes out in November 2027, it really leans into the neuroscience of prayer. And so he's been. He's been working with me on the neuroscience of prayer, and he's a dear friend. So we had a session today. We're just talking through ideas. No way. Because I was going to tell you, Jenny, I was going to say, hey, I think you'd really enjoy a conversation with Dr. Lee Warren, and you were on with him today. That is too funny. It's brilliant.
- [62:23]
B
Well, you know what's so interesting about it, too, is I read his other book, which is called I've seen the end of you and it had similar themes, right. Of like the type of tumor that doesn't go away and people die within a very short period of time. And like, that wrestling of, like, why does God. You know, we're said to pray, you know, supposed to pray and have faith, but like, he's like, I've never seen this prayer be answered. So sort of similar. The grappling was interesting. It happens so often that in a day of podcast interviews, there's so much over overlap. It's always bizarre to me. So I cancel within a half hour. He popped off with you and then hopped onto mine.
- [63:00]
C
Yeah, that's. That's exactly what happened.
- [63:03]
D
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