
Loading summary
Host 1
We have had so many guests on this show talk about how powerful the outdoors can be for kids, especially kids with ADHD or different ways of learning and processing the world. And if you are raising a child with adhd, dyslexia, a language disorder, or really any kind of learning difference, I want to share a podcast that I think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's parents just being honest with each other in a really safe, welcoming space about the highs and lows of raising neurodivergent kids. And what I love about it is how real it is. There was one story about a mom who had this big career running a major podcast division, and she realized she hadn't been home to see her daughter before bed for weeks. And at the same time, she was starting to notice these little moments, like her daughter freezing up during a simple preschool performance and just having that gut feeling like something's different here. And then all the doubt that comes with that. Like other people saying, she seems fine. Well, you're sitting here thinking, but I'm her parent and I know her. This mom eventually stepped back in and reconnected and created little games together just to help her daughter communicate better. It's such a good reminder that connection doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be intentional.
Jenny Urchin
So if that interests you, go check
Host 1
it out to listen. Search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box.
Jenny Urchin
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urchin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I read a book that I loved. So interesting. And it's about, like, this influencer culture. It's called, like, Follow, Subscribe, Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. It was like. So it kept my mind spinning and, like, all these different perspectives you can take about the life that we're in. And the author for Tessa Latifi is here. For Tessa. What a book. Welcome.
Tessa Latifi
Oh, my God. That just gave me, like, so much dopamine. Thank you.
Jenny Urchin
I loved it. I did. Like, this is such a complex topic.
Tessa Latifi
It is.
Jenny Urchin
And that is what you get out of the book, is there really are no easy answers here. Although it's definitely something that we should be talking about, so I would love it if you could kick us off with the history here. So I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, and then in the early 2000s, the world changes. Obviously, the Internet changes the world, but this is really talking about mom bloggers, and I Did not know for Tessa that for a very long time, the sort of parts of motherhood that are a little more, I guess people call them risque. I. I don't even know.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Like, I didn't even know. People weren't talking about breastfeeding. They weren't talking about getting sewn up after birth. Like, these were kind of taboo topics. And mom bloggers opened the door for all of these discussions.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, totally. They burst onto the scene and they were blogging on, you know, blogspot and places like that, and they were writing these really, like, heart plundering, like, thousands of word essays and missives on, like, hating your husband after your baby is born or, like, postpartum anxiety or. Yeah. Getting sewn up after birth. And it was like, totally different because no one had ever talked about motherhood like that publicly.
Jenny Urchin
Wow, what a change. And even miscarriage.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, miscarriages. Yeah. Or infertility or. Yeah, it was amazing.
Jenny Urchin
So these mom bloggers, they don't know how much they're going to change the world, but they start to write. And writing is an outlet for them. It's creative. It sort of pulls them out from the mundane, and they're breaking the silence about these topics that were not spoken about before. And one of the things that you talked about was so interesting for Tessa is that so eventually this kind of leads into. And I guess before this, this was reality tv. Like, so this that's starting now. We got these mom bloggers, and then it changes into this, like, influencer family thing. So it's been these iterations. But one of the things that you brought up in this book that I never really considered is that men fit the care of children around their work, while women fit their work around their care of the children.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And so in some ways, this makes a lot of sense.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. I mean, when a source said that to me, I literally almost, like, fell out of my chair because it was just so clearly what I had been experiencing. And it's like, I have a husband who considers himself a feminist and is a great man. And, like, I love him so much, but, like, he does fit the care of our child around his work, and I fit my work around the care of our child. And that's just how it is even in my feminist marriage where I didn't take his last name, you know, like, it doesn't matter.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Yes. So these women, they start to have these opportunities. They're working full time, you know, they're blogging. They gave these huge audiences in a lot of ways. It's similar, I think, to entertainment, you know, where people are coming to these blogs and then eventually social media accounts and YouTubes for entertainment purposes. And so then they start to have advertisers and then, you know, the claws come out.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Because it's like, well, what is this? This is kind of like this brand new thing. So you are talking in this book which is called, like, follow, Subscrib, subscribe. It's out by the time this podcast goes live. It's so interesting about the nuances of it all. So can you talk about the fact that there are probably a large group of people, especially at this point now that AIs entered the conversation.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
That are like, these people are awful money grabbers, Evil, you know? Yeah, but you're like, no, there's actually a lot of nuance there.
Tessa Latifi
I do. I think there's a lot of nuance and I think there are many people who think like, yeah, if you put your kid online, especially in monetized content, you are evil, you're immoral, you're a bad parent. And that's just not what I believe. And I think we are doing this topic a disservice when we paint it with such a broad brush because, like, yeah, when you start to think about what it's like to be a working mother in this country, like, you can start to understand why they're willing to maybe trade some privacy for financial stability beyond their wildest imaginations and the ability to stay home with their kids. Whereas, like, other moms are having to go to work eight hours a day away from their kids, and then they're trading that money from their paycheck for daycare and they're coming out with like a couple hundred dollars at the end, you know, but you have to stay in the workforce or else if you're out for a few years and then you come back, that's even worse. So it's like, yeah, of course people are making this choice.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, it's definitely. It feels kind of like a no win. But it is so interesting. The way that you did it was you went and talked. You talked to the families and you talked to the kids. I was like, oh, this is such an interesting book.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
You have, you have on one hand kids who are saying things like, I won't even have a birthday party when I turn 16 because my mom's going to turn it into content, or I can't even tell my parents what I'm thinking because they're going to turn it into content. And Then on the other hand, you have kids who hit early adulthood and already have incredibly lucrative careers.
Tessa Latifi
Yes.
Jenny Urchin
Where they have a skincare line, they have clothing lines, they already have these huge YouTube followers. And they're like, we love it. It's so fun. We're so glad our parents gave us these opportunities.
Tessa Latifi
Ye.
Jenny Urchin
So how do we deal with those? I mean, that is like one side versus the other.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. I mean, I think you just have to take them both at their word. Like, I don't think that it makes any sense to be like, every child influencer is going to grow up and hate their parents. Because we know that's not true. And it doesn't get to the truth of the experience. And the truth of the experience is some influencer kids. Yeah. Refuse to have birthday parties because they don't want it turned into content. And they don't tell their parents things because they don't want it turned into content. And then other ones are like, I will never have to get a normal job and work for an hourly wage in my life. And that's awesome. You know, so it's like two things can be true at once. And I think we've lost that level of nuance, especially on the Internet.
Jenny Urchin
I thought one of the ideas in here that seemed like it made. I don't, I don't know if it would actually work, but it seemed like it made some sense was you. So you started talking about the laws. So currently, as it stands, there's hardly any laws around this industry, whereas there are laws for child labor. And when it comes to acting or it comes to modeling, you know, there's different types of standards that are in place. This is just kind of like the wild west.
Host 1
Right.
Jenny Urchin
There's nothing but you talk in the book about a couple states who have started to implement laws and they're just kind of dumb.
Tessa Latifi
They're very difficult to understand. Yeah, yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And difficult to implement. So I just have so many notes because I love this book so much, I'm trying to find my page about the laws.
Tessa Latifi
Okay.
Jenny Urchin
So you go through some of the different states and this is brand new information in for Tess's book. Like, Follow subscribe this great brand new information where, like these laws are from 2024, 2025, and they're only about the money. Right. Can you talk about, like, they're just confusing. And it's like if the child or the likeness of the child appears in 30% of the content and it's monetized at more than a penny for more than 30 days. I mean, it's just.
Tessa Latifi
No, it's very complicated. I parent with the best intentions, would find it incredibly difficult to follow these laws, you know, to the letter of the law. And something that I tried to do was take a piece of my own content that's monetized and try to, like, go through the formula. And it was so complicated, it took so long, I'm not even sure I did it right. And that was one piece of content on one platform.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. And so you go through like, this is the one in Utah and this is the one in Virginia, and you have these calculations in here. But what you talk about is that there are no protections past monetary considerations.
Tessa Latifi
No, no. So there's not really, there's not really any protections for like privacy or consent or, you know, online footprint, that kind of thing. I guess there are a few for privacy or that attempt to address privacy. So there's two laws that have this right to be deleted. But even that is really complicated because it's like, you have the right to request deletion, but it's like, what does that really mean? Like, does that. Because technically you always have the right to request deletion, you know, but it's like, does that mean that the parent then has to comply with that? And also something that I thought about with the right to be deleted is like, okay, so in my book, I would look up like a ton of content and some of it was already deleted, but I could find it in like five seconds. And it wasn't through like secret journalism, like powers, whatever. Like, it was just like, I would Google it and I would find it on YouTube, like, so even when content is deleted, like, it's not ever really deleted, especially if you have millions of
Jenny Urchin
followers, it lives forever. So there's no considerations. Very few about, you know, does what about the child's dignity? And you add a sentence in here. A child cannot give conformed consent, which makes sense. I mean, they do not understand what are the long term implications about being online. And then yet some of the kids or like, this is great, and I'm so glad, you know, you said 86% of kids want to be a YouTube star. And so some of these kids already are YouTube stars and they're like, I get to travel all of these different places. But in terms of the law, you talked about how like, kids maybe in some cases can take legal action against their parents, but you're like, well, how realistic is that, right?
Tessa Latifi
I mean, who wants to come out publicly? I mean, even coming out privately against your parents and telling them, like, hey, I think you made the wrong choice is incredible, incredibly difficult, Let alone like doing it publicly in a court of law.
Jenny Urchin
Right. And like, you can't do that until you're of an age where you really understand, like a toddler can't do that. Or you even said that 25 of fetuses are online.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. And that was in 2017. There hasn't been an updated study, but I would imagine it's like closer to 50 now.
Jenny Urchin
Like they already have this online footprint. So one of the ideas that was that you brought up in the book, and I actually thought, I mean, it would maybe work, is if there was a third party trustee, like a child advocate from the very beginning, Someone who is sort of determining, does this seem reasonable? Because in some cases the parents are saying, look, we only film a couple minutes a day. And then it's. Some cases they're like, they're clearly lying, you know, and in some cases they're like, well, we only share 5% of our life. We don't even share our kids last names. Yeah, but if there was. And I would, I would imagine it would get messy, but like, if you chose to be someone who shared your child online, if there was some sort of a third party company that you had to register through and someone kind of monitored it, that kind of seems like it might work.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, maybe. I don't know. It's hard to say because it feels like the cat is out of the bag, you know?
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so. There's so many layers to it, and that is really what you get from the book. So let's give a couple more examples. One example that you gave was of a mom and she was living, you know, seemed like a single mom situation. Well, there was a couple single mom situations. There was one where like, maybe the husband had left or their marriage had dissolved or. I don't even think she could talk about the details. Yeah, she had eight kids. Yeah. She's like, well, what exactly am I supposed to do? There was another mom who started doing. Well, it turned. I don't know if it was like legit, but it turned into rage bait content where she was showing her kids eating all these unhealthy meals and people were just like, up in arms. But she made a lot of money off of it and was able to like, you know, buy a house and, you know, and she was like, rage bait. Rage bought me a house.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
So there's. This is such a complicated topic.
Tessa Latifi
It's so complicated. And I think I appreciate you understanding that because I think people like to flatten it and say, like, no, it's either 100 okay to put your kids online and monetize content or you are a totally evil, immoral person. And like, I don't believe that. I just don't believe it.
Jenny Urchin
There was an interesting part where you talked about, so you talk about, like, if people are big social media people, they'll recognize some, a fair amount of the names in the book. So there was one family that you talked about where she said, and like the marriage dissolves, she's got a lot of kids. And she says, Well, I spent 16 years as a stay at home mom taking care of the kids. And during. And I re. I relate to this. She's like, during those 16 years, my husband advanced his career. I feel like this podcast is going pretty well, but in the grand scheme of things, it's been around for four and a half years. I have zero training. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I, you know, and so like my husband was in sales. It was like he, they sent him to trainings, you know, like all throughout these years. And so this mom is saying, look, you know, if I would have been in the workforce, I would be a neurosurgeon by now.
Host 1
Possibly.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
So can you talk about the fact that. But in many cases this is kind of the only job that you can do with your kids around that's actually going to pay some sort of a pretty good living wage.
Tessa Latifi
Well, something that I think about is that there are no other jobs I can think of other than family vloggers and mom influencers, where having a kid is a benefit to your career as a woman. Because we know that moms get paid less. We know that it's difficult to balance childcare and afford childcare. And like, I love my daughter, I'm pregnant again right now, and I love my kids. I love them so much. But like, they're not a benefit to my career. But if I were a mom influencer or a family vlogger, like, they would drive my career forward, you know, so like, it makes sense to choose something where like, not only is your motherhood can be part of it, but it can be a benefit to it.
Jenny Urchin
And you're talking about that. Some of these families are like, our content has dried up, so let's have another kid.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Whereas, you know, like you said, in any other situation, it's like, well then that's however many more years that you're out of the workforce and you're sick during pregnancy and spring has a way
Host 1
of filling every open space on the calendar, activities, travel time outside, all the good things, but it can make it harder to keep your curriculum learning consistent during the final stretch of the homeschool year. That's why having something flexible and easy to use can make a big difference right now. IXL is designed to meet kids where they are and fit into real life, not add more complexity to it. IXL is an award winning online learning platform with interactive practice in math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It adapts to each child's level, keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out this time of year is how simple and time saving it is. Everything is organized by grade and subject so you can quickly find exactly what your child needs, whether that's reviewing before testing or continuing to move forward. And because it's personalized, kids can work at their own pace without pressure, which helps keep motivation up even when schedules get busy. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Wayday is here and if you've been waiting for the right moment to refresh your home, this is it. From April 25th through the 27th, Wayfair is offering up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything, which is kind of unheard of. I've been slowly working on making our home feel lighter and more functional as we head into the warmer months. Our style is pretty simple, clean, cozy, a little bit modern, but still very lived in. We used Wayfair to update a few key spaces like some outdoor pieces to make our patio feel like a place we actually want to spend time and a few functional upgrades inside that just made my daily life run smoother. What I love is how easy it is to find exactly what works for for your space. You can filter by size, style, budget, read through thousands of reviews and really feel confident in what you're choosing. And with Wayfair verified you know those pieces have already been vetted for quality which takes a lot of the guesswork out. Everything shipped quickly, the setup was straightforward and it just fit right into our home without over complicating things. Wayfair is the sale to shop the best deals in home we're talking about 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. Head to Wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's W-A-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. This is such a fun announcement to make. Womb Bikes is officially the 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside. And if you've been around here long enough, you know that's not a casual partnership. We care deeply about the tools that help families reclaim childhood. And Womb is doing exactly that. Womb was founded by two dads in a Vienna garage who simply couldn't find a bike that actually fit their kids, so they built one. And what makes Room different is that they don't start with engineering. They start with empathy. Every part of the bike, from the lightweight frame to the brakes, sized perfectly for small hands, is designed to help kids feel capable and confident in a screen dominated world. Bikes are more than bikes. They are freedom. They are connection. They're miles of memories before the streetlights come on. So this spring, we're launching something brand new. The 100 hour ride challenge. We'll release a brand new tracker chart just for logging 100 hours outside on bikes and for app members.
Jenny Urchin
Stay tuned.
Host 1
Integration inside. The 1000 hours outside app is coming. If you've got little learners.
Jenny Urchin
The Womb Go bikes are incredible.
Host 1
Available in six bright colors, including the sweetest new powder pink. That just feels like spring. If you are working toward your 1000 hours outside this year, a great bike makes it a whole lot easier. Womb designs lightweight bikes built just for kids so they can ride farther and ride happier. Go to woom.com and use code outside 10 at checkout for 10% off your bike purchase, excluding the womb. Wow, that's outside 10 for 10 off. At w.com
Jenny Urchin
you talked like specific about numbers. So like, there was one mom, she got paid 4, $800 for a diapers post, which is a lot of money. And I talk about this a lot. And I'm like, I know it's so old, but when I first started working as an adult, I made like $900, something dollars every other week.
Tessa Latifi
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
You know, I was like, with kids that, like, we're kind of jerks, you know, for like 40 hours plus all the prep time, it was probably like 60 hours a week of work. Yeah. And my paycheck was not even $1,000 every other week.
Tessa Latifi
It's so bleak.
Jenny Urchin
So then you're like, okay, here's this mom, and maybe she's a teenage mom. I mean, you know, if you can build these followings, get paid 4, $800 for one diapers post, and then they're going to provide diapers for the rest of the childhood. So. Okay. Another thing I really like is that you talk about, like, we want to throw stones at these women.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
It's not usually the dads.
Tessa Latifi
No.
Jenny Urchin
And sometimes the dads aren't part of the picture too. But like, we want to throw stones at these women. But then the other thing that you talk about is like, well, what about the other part? Parties that are involved, which include the brands themselves.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Who often require children to be in the content. They won't even hire you unless you're going to show your kid.
Host 1
Right.
Jenny Urchin
And the platforms, who you say they're the ones who are winning the most.
Tessa Latifi
Oh, yeah. I mean, people always ask me, like, well, when we're trying to advocate for change for kids online, like, why don't we go to the platforms? And I just, like, laugh. I'm like, the platforms have zero, zero reason to have any change right now because influencer content with kids does way better without. With then influencer content without kids. And there's studies that show that. So, like, for what reason would the platforms want to step in when it's making them so much money?
Jenny Urchin
Because wouldn't it be that. That would be actually, I think, really fairly easy, which is to say on YouTube we do not show any videos of children under the age of 15.
Tessa Latifi
It would be easy, but it would cost billions of dollars.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. So. So that was something that you brought up in this book, is that we're throwing all the blame at the moms, but, like, who's blaming the diaper company that gave 4, 800 for the one post and free diapers? I mean, that's, that's so. It's like. Did you watch that movie? Oh, the Willy Wonka one. The new one. Anyway, there's like this policeman and they're trying to get him to, like, get rid of Willy Wonka and they're offering him chocolate and they're like, 16. It's a whole song. It's like 800 boxes. He's like, no. Then they're finally like 1700 boxes of chocolate and he's like, sold. You know.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And it's an adult and. And you're kind of like, I like that you brought that up too. Because I haven't really thought of it from that perspective. That, you know, in some cases it could Be that the, you know, that Instagram says you, you can't, you can't show your kids or. But they don't because there's a lot of money going on here.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
All right, can we talk about this part of it? One of the things that you brought up was that. Okay, I meant this is like positive, negative, positive.
Tessa Latifi
The whole book is just like ping pong.
Jenny Urchin
Okay, here's. But here's an interesting negative. One of them is that, okay, so some of these kids get brought up in this world and their parents are basically bribing them to do videos. And because they're making so much money. So 4, 800 for diaper post, or, you know, maybe the kids, let's say a little older, they're getting a lot of money for this post or video. Then they're going to give their kid maybe 500 bucks of it or even $1,000 of it because it's a small percentage of what they're making overall.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And they're saying things like, I do so much for you, the least you can do is a two minute video and I'm going to give you a thousand dollars. But then some people lose their platforms.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
For a variety of different reasons. And then the kids are kind of a mess because, like, there was one where the family was like, the kids couldn't even believe that anybody worked for 15 an hour.
Tessa Latifi
No, I mean, because they had been handed stacks of hundred dollar bills their entire childhoods for like, you know, dancing for 30 seconds. And so how do you go from that to like, I think about my teenage job was at Jamba Juice and I, you know, was like, it was like, you know, scooping smoothies and whatever. But I also on Black Friday had to like, wear a banana suit and like, do the whole like Black Friday thing. And like, I would make like, I don't know, every PayCheck was like $300, you know, and that was for working like, what, like 20 hours a week?
Ad Reader
Week.
Tessa Latifi
Like, so how do you go from that to that?
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, I mean, I've got, I keep it here because someone once said, this is my. This is Chuck E. Cheese.
Tessa Latifi
Oh, my God. Yes.
Jenny Urchin
This is my Chuck E. Cheese badge from when I was 16 and I had to bike there because I didn't get my license till a little later. So I had a bike to Chuck E. Cheese. It was like a mile and a half in this ridiculously looking stupid outfit where I look like a clown. Then I had to dress up as the rat, you know.
Tessa Latifi
Yep.
Jenny Urchin
And then you Just make a couple hundred bucks every two weeks, you get that paycheck. So you talk about life on the other side of YouTube and that they become. It's a big struggle. Not only are they used to the money, but they're used to the attention. Preferential treatment.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you go from being someone who's so special to being just like everybody else? No one's interested in your life anymore, and you're making basically what feels like no money.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. So that's a downside. But then on the other side, you talk about. And I thought this was a really interesting. This is an interesting premise, too.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Kids did used to work in the family business.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Up until not that long ago in the course of history. Totally. So, you know, there was a sentence in here about, well, if you worked. If we were farmers, you probably have to milk with a cow and nobody would know about it. You probably have to take hay to the goats or, you know, if we own a restaurant. And I. And I've talked to people who are like, yeah, I had to wait tables or I had to bus or, you know, and I got paid a little bit, but it was just part of the family business. And this is one of the things that people talk about when they're justifying it. Right. I don't really know what I think about that.
Tessa Latifi
I know on one hand, like, I get it, but on the other hand, I think it's a bit of a false equivalency because, like, when you're working in a family restaurant growing up, like, that work doesn't follow you into your adulthood. You know what I mean? Or, like, it's not personal. It's not private. Like, they're not. People aren't making content of you and sharing it to millions of people. Like, you're doing that in, like, relative obscurity versus, like, this kind of work is like, oh, we made a video of your potty training routine, and it's on YouTube forever and has millions of views. And, like, is that really the same as milking a cow? Like, I don't know.
Jenny Urchin
Right. It's not. Yeah, it's not. I. You know, I talked to this woman. This really stuck with me. Her name's Hera Estraff Marano, and she wrote a book a while ago, like, in the early 2000s called the nation of Wimps. She's, like, an editor at Psychology Today. It's a really phenomenal book. And she used the frame and a phrase, the phrase, a new kind of child labor. And she wasn't talking about influencers because this was 2000. Like, 2007. Ish. Around then, because that wasn't even really happening quite yet. But she was talking about, like, the pressure of kids to be in all these sports and to get all these trophies and to get scholarships to college and to get into Ivy League situations. And she called that child labor and, like, kind of living vicariously to your kid and having them be a trophy.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
So it is really an interesting thing to consider that there was child labor and then there maybe was like, a very small blip of time where there wasn't child labor.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And now we're kind of back to it in full force, but not for everyone. Not for some, but in a lot of different ways.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. And I think that's the other thing, is people don't consider content creation labor, but it is labor. Like, anyone who's ever made content can tell you how laborious it is. And not only that, but getting a child to make content. Like, I think about this. My daughter's not even yet 2, but, like, I think about what I would have to. How much much time I would have to spend getting her to, like, do her hair just right and wear the exact outfit and pose just right and blah, blah, blah. Like, that's a lot of work, both for the kid and the parent.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Let alone where some of these. If there's eight kids, I would say, like, we don't even do it every year. But I'm like, the worst day of the year is family photos.
Tessa Latifi
Totally.
Jenny Urchin
Isn't it? Oh, my gosh. And they're gonna get something on it. But for some families, this is what they're doing on a regular basis. So let's talk about that part you bring up. And I didn't know this. You interviewed a nanny who worked for an influencer family. So this is really a cool book because you're interviewing all these different people who have different insights that your average person wouldn't know. So the nanny was talking about how a lot of the larger influencers have,
Host 1
like, a staff, basically.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's Danny's. There's housekeepers, there's house managers, there's videographers, there's editors. I mean, it's an entire. It's a business, and which is, like. I can understand. Like, it is a business. Like, you need help to run a business and to even to run a house. But, like, what I find so troubling is selling this version of your life where if you only buy my Commissionable protein powder. And if you buy my schedule for $250, you will also be able to have. And as seamless and as spotless of a life as I do, but really you have that life because you have so much help. And like, that's what's troubling for me. It's not having help in the first place because, like, I have help and I'm so grateful for it. But the thing is selling this version of your life that doesn't exist and then making money to pay for that help off of people thinking they can have it on their own. Because that's what you're showing them.
Jenny Urchin
Right. And this is common. Like, I, I don't, I don't think I really knew, you know, when the nanny talked about, you know, they have all of these people that are helping.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
You don't realize it. And then they're going to sell you their, their course.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, exactly.
Jenny Urchin
For how to be balanced and to get it all done and not include that in the information. Yeah. So that was, that was interesting. And that particular nanny talked about that the toddler was really starting to internalize, like, oh, that photo wasn't good.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. Take another one. Yeah, yeah. It's wild. I mean, it's interesting like, how toddlers, like anyone who has ever had a toddler knows how like, with it they are. Like, even when I take out my phone to like take a photo of my daughter, she'll like kind of pose for me. And it's like she's not even two. So like, of course, if you're like an influencer kid, you're like taking in this information and you're like, oh, this isn't a good photo. Take it again. Like, it just, it makes so much sense.
Jenny Urchin
So there was a psychologist who talked about that. And you talked about this psychologist in the book where she was saying, like, kids are not really good at abstract and yet they do have a certain understanding. Like the nanny talked about with the toddler was like, I had three birthday parties. One was sponsored, one was for content, and then one was the actual birthday party. And they, they get that to a degree. But then also, I mean, they can have no understanding of the long term ramifications and really no understanding of like acting.
Tessa Latifi
Right. And that they are kind of an actor.
Jenny Urchin
Right. Because there was one mom that was like trying to coach her kid to cry.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And accidentally posted that video.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. And the kid was already crying in the video also. Like, he was like genuinely upset and she was just like trying to get him to, like, turn his face so they could, like, see the tears better in the camera. And it's like. Like, how are you supposed to understand? This is something that I think about is, like, with my daughter, like, what would she do if she were crying because she was in pain or she was upset about something? And I, like, took my phone out and recorded her. Like, I genuinely think, again, she's not even two. She's almost two. I think she would smack my phone out of my hand. Like, I think she would be like, what are you doing?
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah, right. But. But, yeah, so it's just. You can see how in certain ways, it would really mess with them, but also sort of depending on the situation. So that kind of revolves around the concept of content. And you talk about that in the book. The book is called, like, Follow, subscribe, where it's just become more sensationalized and that what the algorithm rewards based on what people are watching are, like, sick kids, vomiting kids, kids that are in pain, babies. So can you talk about the concept of how that messes with everything? Because the content that's sort of rewarded is. Is kind of the less appropriate content to share. Here's an example. You gave an example of a kid on YouTube, possibly the most popular kid on YouTube named Ryan, who does toy unboxing videos and doesn't really share hardly any personal content at all.
Tessa Latifi
No.
Jenny Urchin
Like, well, he's made a lot of money and, you know, people don't really know much about his personal life. But for some people, that's not working.
Tessa Latifi
No, for most, I would say that's not working. He's an exception, for sure. Like, yeah, I had multiple family vloggers and mom influencers go on the record in my book and say, the content that does the best is where our child or children are sick, sad, or injured. And it's like that vulnerability that people, I don't know, crave. I think it's like the way that we can't look away from car crashes. But I think knowing that they know that consciously really makes me feel differently about them taking out their camera to record it. Because on one hand they tell you, oh, this is to raise awareness or to let other parents know that this is normal. Like, your kid getting this sick or your kid having a tantrum or whatever is normal. But it's like, I don't really know what raising awareness really means. Like, it's so amorphous, and it doesn't really, like, mean anything. Like, I think that's a really easy kind of, like, cop out. And then if they know that like their child being sick or sad or injured is going to do really well online, like how does that change their response in the moment to not maybe comfort them the way that they would if the camera weren't involved? Like, I just, and this is the thing, like when I, when I sold this book, I was seven months pregnant. When I turned in the first draft, I was seven months postpartum. And I cannot imagine my daughter being in pain or in distress and me taking out my phone to record it instead of comforting her.
Host 1
Right. I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately. Just really focusing on quality over quantity. Fewer pieces, better materials, things that are easy to wear and that I actually reach for day after day. And that's why I keep coming back to Quint. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful and the pricing just makes sense. Quint makes beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and super soft denim. Gym and a lot of their styles start around $50. Their spring collection is especially good right now. Everything is lightweight, breathable and effortless. The kind of pieces you can throw on and instantly feel put together. And it's not just clothing. Their accessories are just as impressive, especially their leather bags. Made from 100% hand woven Italian leather, they look like something you'd find in a much higher price point. What I really appreciate is how Quince does business. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Quince linen tops have become my go to this spring. The fabric feels substantial but still really easy to wear. And honestly, they don't cost what I thought quality linen would. Refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to Quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 360 five day returns. Queens.com outside
Jenny Urchin
well, there was one where you talked about and you're like, nothing even surprises me anymore. But where the kid was having a seizure and the dad wouldn't put his phone down to call 9 1.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, the mom was telling the dad like find my phone, find my phone, go. Like we have to call 91 1. And like I imagine the dad was filming on a phone and he just kept filming and he didn't go look for the phone and he didn't put his own phone down. And the kid genuinely looked like he Was, like, on desk death's door. And, like, his siblings were crying in the background because he looked so sick. And I was just like, there's, like, a lot of things that I can understand. Like, even if I wouldn't make those choices, I can, like, sympathize with the choices that were being made. And then there's, like, stuff like that, and I'm just like, man, what were you thinking?
Jenny Urchin
And then they pin it.
Tessa Latifi
I've checked. I check every, like, few months. It's still pinned to their profile.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, that's bizarre. And, like, just turn your own phone off. You don't go find the wife's phone because you're holding a phone in your hand.
Tessa Latifi
But you have to record, so.
Jenny Urchin
And so people are saying things like, oh, they're basically. They're so lucky. Their kids get sick all the time, so their account is gonna.
Tessa Latifi
Family vloggers say to each other. Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Okay, so then why are people watching? You know, one of the things you say is, we. They wouldn't be making it if there wasn't a demand. What is the sort of compelling you talk about it? Like, what is the. There's, like, a psychological reason why we're kind of drawn to watch this stuff.
Tessa Latifi
I mean, I think it's the same reason that we, like, watch True Crime or that we, like, slow down to look at car crashes or, you know, like, we're just drawn to human vulnerability. And I think in a way that's natural. But now when it's children and when it's monetized, it becomes very complicated to me. Like, and I, Like, I'm not saying that I'm not also drawn to vulnerability online, but, like, when it's a child, I will not. Not watch it. Like, I don't want to see a child in pain or crying or, like, I don't. I don't understand. I don't want to see that.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, yeah. So there's a. That. That would be another piece of the puzzle. Like, this came up sprinkled throughout the book. Where. Where I would say that the most of the blame that gets thrown around is against the mom. Like, the evil mom who is selling out their child. Basically.
Tessa Latifi
It.
Jenny Urchin
But then you're bringing up. Okay, well, what about the platforms? What about the businesses?
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
What about the people who are watching?
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Which is a lot of people.
Tessa Latifi
It's a lot of people. I mean, it wouldn't be so popular if there weren't so many people watching it.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, but then you talk about how this sort of mundane, like, Looking into other people's lives, it sort of gives us a framework for our own life. And then we develop these parasocial relationships.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
With the kids themselves.
Tessa Latifi
Oh, yeah. I mean, people feel wildly connected to the children that they watch online to the point where sometimes, as is becoming more common, family influencers or mom influencers will take their kids offline and fans like, lose their minds. Like, they're like, you know, they're like crying. They're like posting photos of themselves crying. They're like commenting on the mom's content and being like, like tell them that their tick tock aunties miss them. And like, and like the women that I've talked to who have taken their kids offline and have gotten this intensive a reaction told me this is exactly how I know I did the right thing.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Because they become connected. It's just, the whole thing is just so odd. But the tick tock aunties are, are sending gifts often. You know, I mean, it's just.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
It's a bizarre thing. Another one that gets lack of blame are the pedophiles themselves.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
I mean, this is a whole thing that you talk about. This is, I mean, this. And this is where AI makes things really complicated.
Host 1
Right.
Jenny Urchin
Because if someone has a picture of your kid's face, then they can kind of turn that into anything. You had talked to. Like there was an FBI agent who said putting a little emoji over them is stupid. That was the word.
Tessa Latifi
He was. Yeah, you go. He was talking specifically about posting your child like in a diaper or like undressed and putting an emoji over like their chest or like their, if they're undressed, their private parts. And he was like, that's stupid because you're basically saying this, this will be taken the wrong way. And I'm posting it anyway.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. Yes. So with a sort of pedophilic culture. And I don't even know if that's how you pronounce how people pronounce that word.
Tessa Latifi
I think so.
Jenny Urchin
But like, no one is really, no one is really kind of talking about that either. Like, why are we even here? Like, why is this even happening?
Tessa Latifi
I mean, we're living in the age of the Epstein files. Right? Like, it's just, it all seems connected to me and it's. And it is this culture that fetishizes youth and that, that is pedophilic. And I think the, the thing that I struggled with the most in this reporting was parents who told me that they had gotten messages or comments from people from a Pedophilic lens and continued to post after that. I mean, that's. I don't. That's very difficult for me to understand.
Jenny Urchin
Well, they would say things like, their justification would be, well, what if he was sitting in the audience at my kid's dance recital?
Tessa Latifi
Right. It just doesn't make sense to me because it's like, okay, because there's a risk in another way that means you're not going to mitigate the risk that you know about. Like, it's like just because God forbid your kid could get hit by a car, that means they shouldn't wear a seatbelt when they're in the car. Like, it doesn't make sense.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah, there's just. Book is really good because you're just like, oh, I think this. Oh, wait, wait, you know, and then you're like, this is a different perspective. And now here's a different perspective. But, but I think it is something we're talking about that the focus is so much on the moms when there should at least be a shared focus among all of the, the parts that are contributing. But you do say the parent is the one who is the most responsible for the safety of the child. So as much as we could blame other situations or different types of, you know, culprits, it's like the parent is responsible for the safety of the child. You had. Had something in here about only fans, which this is like, I, I don't totally know. I think it's like you sell yourself privately to a bunch of people as an adult.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, it's. You have to be 18 to join. It's a lot of like nude content and there's like subscription prices that people pay to be able to like access your content and like chat with you.
Host 1
Okay.
Jenny Urchin
So they're reaching out to people who are not quite 18. They're recruiting for only fans and saying if your child or you, if you're 16 or 17 would join only fans when you turn 18, you're gonna make millions of dollars. Right.
Tessa Latifi
Because you have this built in fan base from being a family vlogger.
Jenny Urchin
That is shocking. It's like sports recruiting for objectification.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, no, it's pretty bleak. It's pretty bleak.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. So you talk about that in the book, about being bait for creeps. There's a whole chapter on it, like kind of the wrong kind of attention and how to deal with perverts online. And you just, I mean, you just kind of. It goes back and forth, you know, where you talk to the kids and a lot of these kids say they love it. And, you know, these kids will say, you know, the other kids that make fun of me are just jealous because they wish they had it. And you wrote, is all this hand wringing about the privacy and rights of YouTube children useless, especially if the children enjoy it.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah.
Tessa Latifi
I mean, I think sometimes when I would talk to some of the kids who did really enjoy it, I would be like, well, maybe we're. We're all, like, taking this too seriously. And then I would talk to other kids who would be like, I don't tell my mom anything personal anymore because she'll make it into content. And I was like, okay, well, never mind.
Jenny Urchin
Yes. It's just a ping pong back and forth.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And you sort of. I do. Like. Like at the end. And this is what you said. You said you felt you had more grace, kind of, or more empathy toward the plight of other people. And it wasn't quite so black and white. And that is how I felt when I ended it, too. There's obviously some things that are like, clearly, that's not okay. And then, you know, you just really see that this is really gray and very difficult.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And you don't really know how they're going to create laws that really address it, especially when there's so much money behind it and so many forces. So I liked it.
Tessa Latifi
Thank you.
Jenny Urchin
I mean, some of these kids had millions of dollars saved.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, totally. I mean, that's more than I do at 32. So what am I? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, some of these. Yeah, they're buying houses and cars and cash. Like, I've never done that.
Jenny Urchin
Right. And then, you know, like, Sahil Bloom has this book called the Five Types of Wealth. That's like, money, Isn't that everything? It's only one of the types of wealth. And yeah, you're like, it's really like, we've got a child that's about to graduate, and we're like, how is he even going to afford a house?
Host 1
Like, stuff is so expensive.
Jenny Urchin
So. And then there's a lure because of community. That's another thing that you talk about, which is that, you know, women are so often so isolated and alone. All right, how about one last topic? Basically, you got to pick the book up and talk about it with your friends. That's what I think. Right.
Tessa Latifi
Please. And invite me to your book clubs. I want to come chat.
Jenny Urchin
Yes. It's called, like, follow, subscribe, Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. There's so much in here that's worth talking about. Okay, one last topic before we wrap up. The Mormon Church pays their women influencers.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah, I know.
Jenny Urchin
Actual money.
Tessa Latifi
That's like all I ever want to talk about. It's the craziest thing.
Jenny Urchin
Well, tell us. I mean, what? I had no idea.
Tessa Latifi
I mean, you think about. And I have an entire chapter, chapter on the Mormonism of influencers and why so many influencers are Mormon. And it's very multifaceted and obviously you have to read the chapter to get all the fine points. But one of the reasons is that the Mormon Church is investing actual money in their influencers.
Jenny Urchin
I mean, they said. And it does. It is true. They said it goes further than a billboard. Like, if we're going to invest in marketing, you know, like, well, I'd rather pay for this influencer. Like, I mean, some of them have huge followings. And then you said they're really, you know, they, they tend to look really good. They don't smoke or drink. They put a heart like a high value on appearance.
Tessa Latifi
So again, they're young and they have a bunch of kids and they're blonde mostly and. Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
Wow. Yeah. The algorithm loves babies, so, you know, some of them are having a lot of babies and the appeal of the traditional wife, which is like, I just gonna stay home with my kids and I don't have to worry about all these other things.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
And. But then you're like, well, are they, are they actually showing what's really going on or in some cases if they have like a whole team or something. Yeah, it's just. What a book. I was so glad to get a chance to talk to you about it. I loved it and I. It, it did. You do feel ping pongish.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
You're like, what about this? What about that? It really showcases how, how difficult, how difficult the whole thing is. And it's just, it's too difficult to draw a line in the sand.
Tessa Latifi
I agree.
Jenny Urchin
Can I think about some things?
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
But overall it's really tricky.
Tessa Latifi
It's very complicated. It's very complicated.
Jenny Urchin
Yeah. What an interesting book. I'm so thankful. Thanks for writing it. Thanks for coming on to talk about it.
Tessa Latifi
Thank you for having me.
Jenny Urchin
We always end our show with the same question, which is a total shift.
Tessa Latifi
Okay.
Jenny Urchin
What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside? Oh.
Tessa Latifi
You know, I feel like most of my childhood memories were outside. We, I grew up in Virginia and we lived in this kind of like planned community where like all of the neighborhoods were connected by like the. This bike path. And so I would just like get on my bike at like, I don't know, seven or eight. And I would just like ride my bike to the community pool and I would just stay there the entire day and then I would ride my bike home. And it was like the best thing. And I was always sunburnt and hungry and tired and I was having so much fun.
Jenny Urchin
I love it. I love it. I want to wrap up because, you know, I don't. I don't want to feel like there's kind of no answer at the end. An answer that I saw that was sort of sprinkled throughout was this thread of. You were like, look, you know these motherhood blogs. And this motherhood content is actually really helpful. Yeah. But it used to be more text based and less image focused. And there was a shift at some point where the kid became the focus. And now this is a family vlog and a kid influencer. But the mom content really, truly was helpful. And you talked about. I had a blog in 2013. You had to upload a picture to a different site.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah. And then embedded. Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
I was like, oh, my gosh, I totally forgot about that. But when things became more image central centric, it changed a lot. So I thought, like, that's a, that's a good answer for an adult, which is like, can you keep the focus on yourself, your own journey, maybe talk about your kids a little bit, but they're not like the central thing, you know?
Tessa Latifi
I agree.
Jenny Urchin
That was an interesting thing that I got out of it too.
Tessa Latifi
Yeah.
Jenny Urchin
You say it's fundamentally, it's. This was interesting. It is fundamentally different to be the child of a mom blogger than it is to be the child of an influencer. Mom bloggers focus on their experiences of motherhood to the point that it almost feels like the children are secondary if they're involved in the stories. Mom bloggers, they're not telling you about their children. They're telling you about motherhood. It's centered on the women who are raising the children, not the children themselves. So interesting. Anything else you want to leave us with?
Tessa Latifi
Just that I hope you all go grab the book and that you enjoy it. And if you have any questions or want me to join book clubs or anything, you can find me online at High for Tessa. H I F O R T E S A And I hope you enjoy the book.
Jenny Urchin
Thanks for being here.
Tessa Latifi
Oh, my God, you just gave me so much energy for the day. I was like, dragging, and now I feel so much better. Thank you for having me.
Ad Reader
Two Good and Co Coffee Creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two Good coffee creamers Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle. New to TikTok? You might be surprised. TikTok shop is packed with a wide variety of products and unexpected discounts. Easy to browse, easy to find good value. Download TikTok now.
This episode dives deeply into the phenomenon of "sharenting"—parents who share and monetize their children's lives online—through the lens of Fortesa Latifi's new book, Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. Host Jenny Yurich and Latifi unpack the complex, controversial world of influencer families: covering the historical roots, rapid evolution, ethical dilemmas, psychological impacts on children, failed legislative efforts, and the multiple players and motivations shaping this billion-dollar industry. This conversation offers a nuanced, empathetic, and critical exploration, refusing to settle for easy answers.
Unspoken Double Standards & Economic Pressures
Financial Lure vs. Social Judgment
Conflicting Experiences of Influencer Kids
Long-Term Impact & Difficulties With Consent
When Family Life Becomes a Business
Legislative Efforts: Too Little, Too Confusing
Suggestions for Solutions
Misplaced Blame
Ethical Complexity
Content Creation IS Labor
Algorithmic Exploitation and Sensationalizing Suffering
Audience Demand and Parasocial Relationships
Risks of Exploitation and Predation
Like, Follow, Subscribe invites readers and listeners to grapple with the ambiguity of parenting—and profiting—from childhood in the digital era. The conversation is highly recommended as a book club pick or topic for any community invested in the wellbeing of children and the ethical future of family life online.
Find Fortesa Latifi at @highfortesa and consider inviting her to join your next discussion or book club.
(Summary by The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast team, 2026)