1KHO 763: When Childhood Becomes Content | Fortesa Latifi, Like, Follow, Subscribe

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 763: When Childhood Becomes Content | Fortesa Latifi, Like, Follow, Subscribe
Host: Jenny Yurich
Guest: Fortesa Latifi, journalist & author of Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online
Date: April 9, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the phenomenon of "sharenting"—parents who share and monetize their children's lives online—through the lens of Fortesa Latifi's new book, Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. Host Jenny Yurich and Latifi unpack the complex, controversial world of influencer families: covering the historical roots, rapid evolution, ethical dilemmas, psychological impacts on children, failed legislative efforts, and the multiple players and motivations shaping this billion-dollar industry. This conversation offers a nuanced, empathetic, and critical exploration, refusing to settle for easy answers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Mom Blogging Evolved into Influencer Families

• Historical Context
  • In the ‘80s and ‘90s, motherhood topics like breastfeeding and postpartum struggles were taboo. The early 2000s “mom blogger” movement brought frank discussions of these private aspects into the public (02:15).
    • "They burst onto the scene...writing these really heart plundering, thousands of word essays...on hating your husband after your baby, or postpartum anxiety, or getting sewn up after birth. And it was totally different because no one had ever talked about motherhood like that publicly." —Fortesa Latifi (02:27)
  • The content evolved: from written blogs to viral social media and daily family vlogging, leading to kids becoming the focal point of monetization.

2. Gender & Economic Realities Behind Influencer Parenthood

• Unspoken Double Standards & Economic Pressures

  • There's a difference in how men and women organize work and childcare:
    • "Men fit the care of children around their work, while women fit their work around their care of the children." —Jenny Yurich (03:42)
    • Latifi personalizes: "Even in my feminist marriage...he fits the care of our child around his work, and I fit my work around the care of our child." (03:50)
  • Influencing is often one of the only careers where “having kids helps your career as a woman,” unlike traditional work where motherhood is a disadvantage (14:43).

• Financial Lure vs. Social Judgment

  • For many, sharing children online is a rational choice:
    • “You can start to understand why they’re willing to trade some privacy for financial stability and the ability to stay home with their kids.” —Fortesa Latifi (05:11)
    • Host highlights: a single Instagram post can net $4800 (19:28). For many families, particularly those headed by single mothers or those facing economic precarity, the trade-off is both real and life-changing.

3. Kids as Content: Rewards and Risks

• Conflicting Experiences of Influencer Kids

  • Some kids love the attention and career; others feel used, surveilled, and unable to trust parents with personal feelings (06:16–06:54).
    • “I won’t even have a birthday party when I turn 16 because my mom’s going to turn it into content.” —(Reported by Latifi, paraphrasing interviewees)
    • “I never have to get a regular job. That’s awesome!” —(Young influencer, paraphrased, 06:48)
  • Latifi stresses there's no single narrative: "Two things can be true at once. We've lost that level of nuance, especially on the Internet." (06:54)

• Long-Term Impact & Difficulties With Consent

  • Deleted content is never fully gone; toddlers to unborn babies have online footprints before birth (11:16).
  • Minors can't offer meaningful consent; legal recourse is virtually impossible for them to navigate (11:05).

• When Family Life Becomes a Business

  • For some, having another child is a business decision: "Some families are like, our content has dried up, so let's have another kid." (15:22)
  • The lifestyle sold online is supported by behind-the-scenes help—nannies, managers, editors—rarely disclosed to followers. This disconnect fuels unrealistic expectations for viewers (28:29).

4. Laws, Protections, and the "Wild West" of Influencer Childhood

• Legislative Efforts: Too Little, Too Confusing

  • Only a handful of states (like Utah, Virginia) have enacted laws—and they're complicated, ineffective, and focus solely on monetary rewards, not consent or privacy (08:14–10:16).
    • Laws are confusing: "If the child's likeness appears in 30% of the content and it's monetized at more than a penny for more than thirty days..." (08:13)
  • Even provisions like the "right to be deleted" are practically unenforceable (09:21). The fundamental problem: “the cat is out of the bag” (12:19).

• Suggestions for Solutions

  • Proposal: a third-party child advocate or trustee to oversee influencer family contracts. Latifi is skeptical but admits it's hard to imagine a fix (12:19–12:25).

5. The Blame Game: Moms, Platforms, Brands, and Society

• Misplaced Blame

  • Most criticism targets mothers, often ignoring other actors (20:25–22:26):
    • Brands require kids in posts for sponsorships.
    • Platforms like YouTube profit most and have no incentive to change: “The platforms have zero reason to have any change right now because influencer content with kids does way better than without.” —Fortesa Latifi (20:49)
  • Legal or industry solutions (like YouTube banning videos featuring children) would come at massive financial cost to these companies (21:16–21:29).

• Ethical Complexity

  • Children are sometimes bribed to participate with money, leading to skewed perceptions of labor and financial normalcy (23:11–24:46).
  • Adjusting to life after fame, influencer kids can feel lost and underprepared for typical jobs and relationships (24:46).

6. The Broader Cultural and Psychological Impact

• Content Creation IS Labor

  • Creating content as a family is demanding, emotionally and logistically, for both parents and children (27:21).
  • Nannies for influencer families confirm staff, constant production, and children’s self-worth being tied to their image (28:27–29:56).

• Algorithmic Exploitation and Sensationalizing Suffering

  • Sensational, distressing, or private content (e.g., a child crying or being sick) is rewarded by algorithms, creating perverse incentives (32:51–34:12).
    • “Multiple family vloggers told me—the content that does the best is where our child or children are sick, sad, or injured. That’s the vulnerability people crave.” —Fortesa Latifi (32:51)
  • Real consequences: some parents filmed instead of helping during emergencies, such as a child’s seizure (35:32–36:22).

• Audience Demand and Parasocial Relationships

  • Consumers themselves fuel the system by watching and engaging:
    • “Family influencers will take their kids offline and fans lose their minds...Say, ‘Tell the TikTok aunties we miss them!’” —Fortesa Latifi (38:19)
  • This demand drives content creation and deepens the cycle (37:56–38:19).

• Risks of Exploitation and Predation

  • Pedophilic culture and risks are rarely discussed directly, but platforms, AI, and image-focused sharing have heightened dangers (39:03–41:06).
    • "If someone has a picture of your kids face, they can turn that into anything." —Jenny Yurich (41:15)
    • An FBI agent is quoted as calling “putting an emoji over a child in a diaper” simply “stupid” (39:30).

7. Shifting Definitions of Child Labor & Agency

• Pop culture and parental ambition have always shaped some kids’ lives, from farm work to today’s trophy children (25:10–27:14).
• Latifi draws a clear line between traditional family businesses (labor that’s private and temporary) and internet content (permanent, massively public, deeply personal) (25:43).

8. Faith, Marketing, and Systemic Influences

• Notably, the Mormon church actively pays women influencers as part of marketing—another level of professionalization and investment in the influencer ecosystem (45:16–46:17).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Gray Area:
  • “Two things can be true at once. And I think we've lost that level of nuance, especially on the Internet.” —Fortesa Latifi (06:54)
• On Double Standards:
  • “We want to throw stones at these women. But what about the brands...and the platforms? They're the ones who are winning the most.” —Jenny Yurich (20:24)
• On the Impact of Deleting Content:
  • "Even when content is deleted, it's not ever really deleted, especially if you have millions of followers." —Fortesa Latifi (09:21)
• On Algorithmic Harm:
  • “The content that does the best is where our child or children are sick, sad, or injured.” —Fortesa Latifi (32:51)
• On Pedophilia and Parental Awareness:
  • "What I struggled with the most was parents who told me they had gotten messages from a pedophilic lens and continued to post afterward." —Fortesa Latifi (40:10)
• On the Allure of Community:
  • “There's a lure because of community...women are often so isolated and alone.” —Jenny Yurich (44:45)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:06 — Introduction of guest, Fortesa Latifi, and her book’s main question
• 02:15-02:59 — History of mom blogging and breaking taboo topics
• 03:42-04:16 — Gender, labor, and economic realities of motherhood online
• 05:11 — Nuanced perspective on parenting choices in influencer economy
• 06:16-06:54 — Conflicting child perspectives: empowerment vs. exploitation
• 08:13–10:16 — Weakness of current legislative attempts to protect child influencers
• 14:43, 15:22 — Motherhood as the only "career boost" for women in influencing
• 19:28–21:29 — Industry pressures from brands and platforms
• 24:46 — Difficulties for former influencer kids adjusting to regular life
• 25:43 — Why family businesses and influencing are not equivalent
• 27:21-29:56 — Content creation as invisible, undervalued family labor
• 32:51-34:12 — Algorithms reward sensational and vulnerable child content
• 35:32–36:22 — Parents prioritizing filming over emergencies
• 38:19 — Parasocial audience relationships and fan reaction to kids being taken offline
• 39:30–41:06 — Pedophilia, AI, and irreparable privacy risks
• 45:16–46:17 — The Mormon church's financial role in influencer marketing
• 48:01–49:39 — The shift from text-based to image-based motherhood content and its implications

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Concluding Insights & Takeaways

• No Simple Answers: The episode refuses black-and-white judgments. While clear exploitation exists, many families navigate impossible choices because of economic, social, and gendered pressures.
• Shared Responsibility: Platforms and brands are as responsible—often more so—than individual mothers, yet businesses and viewers rarely face scrutiny.
• Community and Isolation: For many women, influencer communities substitute for the social ties lost to modern isolation, deepening the attraction and the stakes.
• Advice for Adults: Focus on your own narrative. Text-based sharing about motherhood (not your kids) provides connection without risking children’s autonomy and privacy. (48:01–49:39)
• Need for Ongoing Conversation and Critical Awareness: The topic is "ping-ponged" throughout, reflecting ever-shifting perspectives and complex truths.

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Closing Note

Like, Follow, Subscribe invites readers and listeners to grapple with the ambiguity of parenting—and profiting—from childhood in the digital era. The conversation is highly recommended as a book club pick or topic for any community invested in the wellbeing of children and the ethical future of family life online.

Find Fortesa Latifi at @highfortesa and consider inviting her to join your next discussion or book club.

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(Summary by The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast team, 2026)

Transcript

[Host 1]

We have had so many guests on this show talk about how powerful the outdoors can be for kids, especially kids with ADHD or different ways of learning and processing the world. And if you are raising a child with adhd, dyslexia, a language disorder, or really any kind of learning difference, I want to share a podcast that I think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's parents just being honest with each other in a really safe, welcoming space about the highs and lows of raising neurodivergent kids. And what I love about it is how real it is. There was one story about a mom who had this big career running a major podcast division, and she realized she hadn't been home to see her daughter before bed for weeks. And at the same time, she was starting to notice these little moments, like her daughter freezing up during a simple preschool performance and just having that gut feeling like something's different here. And then all the doubt that comes with that. Like other people saying, she seems fine. Well, you're sitting here thinking, but I'm her parent and I know her. This mom eventually stepped back in and reconnected and created little games together just to help her daughter communicate better. It's such a good reminder that connection doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be intentional.

[Jenny Urchin]

So if that interests you, go check

[Host 1]

it out to listen. Search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box.

[Jenny Urchin]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urchin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I read a book that I loved. So interesting. And it's about, like, this influencer culture. It's called, like, Follow, Subscribe, Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. It was like. So it kept my mind spinning and, like, all these different perspectives you can take about the life that we're in. And the author for Tessa Latifi is here. For Tessa. What a book. Welcome.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh, my God. That just gave me, like, so much dopamine. Thank you.

[Jenny Urchin]

I loved it. I did. Like, this is such a complex topic.

[Tessa Latifi]

It is.

[Jenny Urchin]

And that is what you get out of the book, is there really are no easy answers here. Although it's definitely something that we should be talking about, so I would love it if you could kick us off with the history here. So I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, and then in the early 2000s, the world changes. Obviously, the Internet changes the world, but this is really talking about mom bloggers, and I Did not know for Tessa that for a very long time, the sort of parts of motherhood that are a little more, I guess people call them risque. I. I don't even know.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Like, I didn't even know. People weren't talking about breastfeeding. They weren't talking about getting sewn up after birth. Like, these were kind of taboo topics. And mom bloggers opened the door for all of these discussions.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, totally. They burst onto the scene and they were blogging on, you know, blogspot and places like that, and they were writing these really, like, heart plundering, like, thousands of word essays and missives on, like, hating your husband after your baby is born or, like, postpartum anxiety or. Yeah. Getting sewn up after birth. And it was like, totally different because no one had ever talked about motherhood like that publicly.

[Jenny Urchin]

Wow, what a change. And even miscarriage.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, miscarriages. Yeah. Or infertility or. Yeah, it was amazing.

[Jenny Urchin]

So these mom bloggers, they don't know how much they're going to change the world, but they start to write. And writing is an outlet for them. It's creative. It sort of pulls them out from the mundane, and they're breaking the silence about these topics that were not spoken about before. And one of the things that you talked about was so interesting for Tessa is that so eventually this kind of leads into. And I guess before this, this was reality tv. Like, so this that's starting now. We got these mom bloggers, and then it changes into this, like, influencer family thing. So it's been these iterations. But one of the things that you brought up in this book that I never really considered is that men fit the care of children around their work, while women fit their work around their care of the children.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And so in some ways, this makes a lot of sense.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, when a source said that to me, I literally almost, like, fell out of my chair because it was just so clearly what I had been experiencing. And it's like, I have a husband who considers himself a feminist and is a great man. And, like, I love him so much, but, like, he does fit the care of our child around his work, and I fit my work around the care of our child. And that's just how it is even in my feminist marriage where I didn't take his last name, you know, like, it doesn't matter.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. Yes. So these women, they start to have these opportunities. They're working full time, you know, they're blogging. They gave these huge audiences in a lot of ways. It's similar, I think, to entertainment, you know, where people are coming to these blogs and then eventually social media accounts and YouTubes for entertainment purposes. And so then they start to have advertisers and then, you know, the claws come out.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Because it's like, well, what is this? This is kind of like this brand new thing. So you are talking in this book which is called, like, follow, Subscrib, subscribe. It's out by the time this podcast goes live. It's so interesting about the nuances of it all. So can you talk about the fact that there are probably a large group of people, especially at this point now that AIs entered the conversation.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

That are like, these people are awful money grabbers, Evil, you know? Yeah, but you're like, no, there's actually a lot of nuance there.

[Tessa Latifi]

I do. I think there's a lot of nuance and I think there are many people who think like, yeah, if you put your kid online, especially in monetized content, you are evil, you're immoral, you're a bad parent. And that's just not what I believe. And I think we are doing this topic a disservice when we paint it with such a broad brush because, like, yeah, when you start to think about what it's like to be a working mother in this country, like, you can start to understand why they're willing to maybe trade some privacy for financial stability beyond their wildest imaginations and the ability to stay home with their kids. Whereas, like, other moms are having to go to work eight hours a day away from their kids, and then they're trading that money from their paycheck for daycare and they're coming out with like a couple hundred dollars at the end, you know, but you have to stay in the workforce or else if you're out for a few years and then you come back, that's even worse. So it's like, yeah, of course people are making this choice.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, it's definitely. It feels kind of like a no win. But it is so interesting. The way that you did it was you went and talked. You talked to the families and you talked to the kids. I was like, oh, this is such an interesting book.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

You have, you have on one hand kids who are saying things like, I won't even have a birthday party when I turn 16 because my mom's going to turn it into content, or I can't even tell my parents what I'm thinking because they're going to turn it into content. And Then on the other hand, you have kids who hit early adulthood and already have incredibly lucrative careers.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yes.

[Jenny Urchin]

Where they have a skincare line, they have clothing lines, they already have these huge YouTube followers. And they're like, we love it. It's so fun. We're so glad our parents gave us these opportunities.

[Tessa Latifi]

Ye.

[Jenny Urchin]

So how do we deal with those? I mean, that is like one side versus the other.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, I think you just have to take them both at their word. Like, I don't think that it makes any sense to be like, every child influencer is going to grow up and hate their parents. Because we know that's not true. And it doesn't get to the truth of the experience. And the truth of the experience is some influencer kids. Yeah. Refuse to have birthday parties because they don't want it turned into content. And they don't tell their parents things because they don't want it turned into content. And then other ones are like, I will never have to get a normal job and work for an hourly wage in my life. And that's awesome. You know, so it's like two things can be true at once. And I think we've lost that level of nuance, especially on the Internet.

[Jenny Urchin]

I thought one of the ideas in here that seemed like it made. I don't, I don't know if it would actually work, but it seemed like it made some sense was you. So you started talking about the laws. So currently, as it stands, there's hardly any laws around this industry, whereas there are laws for child labor. And when it comes to acting or it comes to modeling, you know, there's different types of standards that are in place. This is just kind of like the wild west.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Jenny Urchin]

There's nothing but you talk in the book about a couple states who have started to implement laws and they're just kind of dumb.

[Tessa Latifi]

They're very difficult to understand. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And difficult to implement. So I just have so many notes because I love this book so much, I'm trying to find my page about the laws.

[Tessa Latifi]

Okay.

[Jenny Urchin]

So you go through some of the different states and this is brand new information in for Tess's book. Like, Follow subscribe this great brand new information where, like these laws are from 2024, 2025, and they're only about the money. Right. Can you talk about, like, they're just confusing. And it's like if the child or the likeness of the child appears in 30% of the content and it's monetized at more than a penny for more than 30 days. I mean, it's just.

[Tessa Latifi]

No, it's very complicated. I parent with the best intentions, would find it incredibly difficult to follow these laws, you know, to the letter of the law. And something that I tried to do was take a piece of my own content that's monetized and try to, like, go through the formula. And it was so complicated, it took so long, I'm not even sure I did it right. And that was one piece of content on one platform.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, yeah. And so you go through like, this is the one in Utah and this is the one in Virginia, and you have these calculations in here. But what you talk about is that there are no protections past monetary considerations.

[Tessa Latifi]

No, no. So there's not really, there's not really any protections for like privacy or consent or, you know, online footprint, that kind of thing. I guess there are a few for privacy or that attempt to address privacy. So there's two laws that have this right to be deleted. But even that is really complicated because it's like, you have the right to request deletion, but it's like, what does that really mean? Like, does that. Because technically you always have the right to request deletion, you know, but it's like, does that mean that the parent then has to comply with that? And also something that I thought about with the right to be deleted is like, okay, so in my book, I would look up like a ton of content and some of it was already deleted, but I could find it in like five seconds. And it wasn't through like secret journalism, like powers, whatever. Like, it was just like, I would Google it and I would find it on YouTube, like, so even when content is deleted, like, it's not ever really deleted, especially if you have millions of

[Jenny Urchin]

followers, it lives forever. So there's no considerations. Very few about, you know, does what about the child's dignity? And you add a sentence in here. A child cannot give conformed consent, which makes sense. I mean, they do not understand what are the long term implications about being online. And then yet some of the kids or like, this is great, and I'm so glad, you know, you said 86% of kids want to be a YouTube star. And so some of these kids already are YouTube stars and they're like, I get to travel all of these different places. But in terms of the law, you talked about how like, kids maybe in some cases can take legal action against their parents, but you're like, well, how realistic is that, right?

[Tessa Latifi]

I mean, who wants to come out publicly? I mean, even coming out privately against your parents and telling them, like, hey, I think you made the wrong choice is incredible, incredibly difficult, Let alone like doing it publicly in a court of law.

[Jenny Urchin]

Right. And like, you can't do that until you're of an age where you really understand, like a toddler can't do that. Or you even said that 25 of fetuses are online.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. And that was in 2017. There hasn't been an updated study, but I would imagine it's like closer to 50 now.

[Jenny Urchin]

Like they already have this online footprint. So one of the ideas that was that you brought up in the book, and I actually thought, I mean, it would maybe work, is if there was a third party trustee, like a child advocate from the very beginning, Someone who is sort of determining, does this seem reasonable? Because in some cases the parents are saying, look, we only film a couple minutes a day. And then it's. Some cases they're like, they're clearly lying, you know, and in some cases they're like, well, we only share 5% of our life. We don't even share our kids last names. Yeah, but if there was. And I would, I would imagine it would get messy, but like, if you chose to be someone who shared your child online, if there was some sort of a third party company that you had to register through and someone kind of monitored it, that kind of seems like it might work.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. It's hard to say because it feels like the cat is out of the bag, you know?

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so. There's so many layers to it, and that is really what you get from the book. So let's give a couple more examples. One example that you gave was of a mom and she was living, you know, seemed like a single mom situation. Well, there was a couple single mom situations. There was one where like, maybe the husband had left or their marriage had dissolved or. I don't even think she could talk about the details. Yeah, she had eight kids. Yeah. She's like, well, what exactly am I supposed to do? There was another mom who started doing. Well, it turned. I don't know if it was like legit, but it turned into rage bait content where she was showing her kids eating all these unhealthy meals and people were just like, up in arms. But she made a lot of money off of it and was able to like, you know, buy a house and, you know, and she was like, rage bait. Rage bought me a house.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

So there's. This is such a complicated topic.

[Tessa Latifi]

It's so complicated. And I think I appreciate you understanding that because I think people like to flatten it and say, like, no, it's either 100 okay to put your kids online and monetize content or you are a totally evil, immoral person. And like, I don't believe that. I just don't believe it.

[Jenny Urchin]

There was an interesting part where you talked about, so you talk about, like, if people are big social media people, they'll recognize some, a fair amount of the names in the book. So there was one family that you talked about where she said, and like the marriage dissolves, she's got a lot of kids. And she says, Well, I spent 16 years as a stay at home mom taking care of the kids. And during. And I re. I relate to this. She's like, during those 16 years, my husband advanced his career. I feel like this podcast is going pretty well, but in the grand scheme of things, it's been around for four and a half years. I have zero training. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I, you know, and so like my husband was in sales. It was like he, they sent him to trainings, you know, like all throughout these years. And so this mom is saying, look, you know, if I would have been in the workforce, I would be a neurosurgeon by now.

[Host 1]

Possibly.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

So can you talk about the fact that. But in many cases this is kind of the only job that you can do with your kids around that's actually going to pay some sort of a pretty good living wage.

[Tessa Latifi]

Well, something that I think about is that there are no other jobs I can think of other than family vloggers and mom influencers, where having a kid is a benefit to your career as a woman. Because we know that moms get paid less. We know that it's difficult to balance childcare and afford childcare. And like, I love my daughter, I'm pregnant again right now, and I love my kids. I love them so much. But like, they're not a benefit to my career. But if I were a mom influencer or a family vlogger, like, they would drive my career forward, you know, so like, it makes sense to choose something where like, not only is your motherhood can be part of it, but it can be a benefit to it.

[Jenny Urchin]

And you're talking about that. Some of these families are like, our content has dried up, so let's have another kid.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Whereas, you know, like you said, in any other situation, it's like, well then that's however many more years that you're out of the workforce and you're sick during pregnancy and spring has a way

[Host 1]

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[Jenny Urchin]

Stay tuned.

[Host 1]

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[Jenny Urchin]

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[Host 1]

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[Jenny Urchin]

you talked like specific about numbers. So like, there was one mom, she got paid 4, $800 for a diapers post, which is a lot of money. And I talk about this a lot. And I'm like, I know it's so old, but when I first started working as an adult, I made like $900, something dollars every other week.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

You know, I was like, with kids that, like, we're kind of jerks, you know, for like 40 hours plus all the prep time, it was probably like 60 hours a week of work. Yeah. And my paycheck was not even $1,000 every other week.

[Tessa Latifi]

It's so bleak.

[Jenny Urchin]

So then you're like, okay, here's this mom, and maybe she's a teenage mom. I mean, you know, if you can build these followings, get paid 4, $800 for one diapers post, and then they're going to provide diapers for the rest of the childhood. So. Okay. Another thing I really like is that you talk about, like, we want to throw stones at these women.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

It's not usually the dads.

[Tessa Latifi]

No.

[Jenny Urchin]

And sometimes the dads aren't part of the picture too. But like, we want to throw stones at these women. But then the other thing that you talk about is like, well, what about the other part? Parties that are involved, which include the brands themselves.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Who often require children to be in the content. They won't even hire you unless you're going to show your kid.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Jenny Urchin]

And the platforms, who you say they're the ones who are winning the most.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh, yeah. I mean, people always ask me, like, well, when we're trying to advocate for change for kids online, like, why don't we go to the platforms? And I just, like, laugh. I'm like, the platforms have zero, zero reason to have any change right now because influencer content with kids does way better without. With then influencer content without kids. And there's studies that show that. So, like, for what reason would the platforms want to step in when it's making them so much money?

[Jenny Urchin]

Because wouldn't it be that. That would be actually, I think, really fairly easy, which is to say on YouTube we do not show any videos of children under the age of 15.

[Tessa Latifi]

It would be easy, but it would cost billions of dollars.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. So. So that was something that you brought up in this book, is that we're throwing all the blame at the moms, but, like, who's blaming the diaper company that gave 4, 800 for the one post and free diapers? I mean, that's, that's so. It's like. Did you watch that movie? Oh, the Willy Wonka one. The new one. Anyway, there's like this policeman and they're trying to get him to, like, get rid of Willy Wonka and they're offering him chocolate and they're like, 16. It's a whole song. It's like 800 boxes. He's like, no. Then they're finally like 1700 boxes of chocolate and he's like, sold. You know.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And it's an adult and. And you're kind of like, I like that you brought that up too. Because I haven't really thought of it from that perspective. That, you know, in some cases it could Be that the, you know, that Instagram says you, you can't, you can't show your kids or. But they don't because there's a lot of money going on here.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

All right, can we talk about this part of it? One of the things that you brought up was that. Okay, I meant this is like positive, negative, positive.

[Tessa Latifi]

The whole book is just like ping pong.

[Jenny Urchin]

Okay, here's. But here's an interesting negative. One of them is that, okay, so some of these kids get brought up in this world and their parents are basically bribing them to do videos. And because they're making so much money. So 4, 800 for diaper post, or, you know, maybe the kids, let's say a little older, they're getting a lot of money for this post or video. Then they're going to give their kid maybe 500 bucks of it or even $1,000 of it because it's a small percentage of what they're making overall.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And they're saying things like, I do so much for you, the least you can do is a two minute video and I'm going to give you a thousand dollars. But then some people lose their platforms.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

For a variety of different reasons. And then the kids are kind of a mess because, like, there was one where the family was like, the kids couldn't even believe that anybody worked for 15 an hour.

[Tessa Latifi]

No, I mean, because they had been handed stacks of hundred dollar bills their entire childhoods for like, you know, dancing for 30 seconds. And so how do you go from that to like, I think about my teenage job was at Jamba Juice and I, you know, was like, it was like, you know, scooping smoothies and whatever. But I also on Black Friday had to like, wear a banana suit and like, do the whole like Black Friday thing. And like, I would make like, I don't know, every PayCheck was like $300, you know, and that was for working like, what, like 20 hours a week?

[Ad Reader]

Week.

[Tessa Latifi]

Like, so how do you go from that to that?

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, I mean, I've got, I keep it here because someone once said, this is my. This is Chuck E. Cheese.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Jenny Urchin]

This is my Chuck E. Cheese badge from when I was 16 and I had to bike there because I didn't get my license till a little later. So I had a bike to Chuck E. Cheese. It was like a mile and a half in this ridiculously looking stupid outfit where I look like a clown. Then I had to dress up as the rat, you know.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yep.

[Jenny Urchin]

And then you Just make a couple hundred bucks every two weeks, you get that paycheck. So you talk about life on the other side of YouTube and that they become. It's a big struggle. Not only are they used to the money, but they're used to the attention. Preferential treatment.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you go from being someone who's so special to being just like everybody else? No one's interested in your life anymore, and you're making basically what feels like no money.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. So that's a downside. But then on the other side, you talk about. And I thought this was a really interesting. This is an interesting premise, too.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Kids did used to work in the family business.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Up until not that long ago in the course of history. Totally. So, you know, there was a sentence in here about, well, if you worked. If we were farmers, you probably have to milk with a cow and nobody would know about it. You probably have to take hay to the goats or, you know, if we own a restaurant. And I. And I've talked to people who are like, yeah, I had to wait tables or I had to bus or, you know, and I got paid a little bit, but it was just part of the family business. And this is one of the things that people talk about when they're justifying it. Right. I don't really know what I think about that.

[Tessa Latifi]

I know on one hand, like, I get it, but on the other hand, I think it's a bit of a false equivalency because, like, when you're working in a family restaurant growing up, like, that work doesn't follow you into your adulthood. You know what I mean? Or, like, it's not personal. It's not private. Like, they're not. People aren't making content of you and sharing it to millions of people. Like, you're doing that in, like, relative obscurity versus, like, this kind of work is like, oh, we made a video of your potty training routine, and it's on YouTube forever and has millions of views. And, like, is that really the same as milking a cow? Like, I don't know.

[Jenny Urchin]

Right. It's not. Yeah, it's not. I. You know, I talked to this woman. This really stuck with me. Her name's Hera Estraff Marano, and she wrote a book a while ago, like, in the early 2000s called the nation of Wimps. She's, like, an editor at Psychology Today. It's a really phenomenal book. And she used the frame and a phrase, the phrase, a new kind of child labor. And she wasn't talking about influencers because this was 2000. Like, 2007. Ish. Around then, because that wasn't even really happening quite yet. But she was talking about, like, the pressure of kids to be in all these sports and to get all these trophies and to get scholarships to college and to get into Ivy League situations. And she called that child labor and, like, kind of living vicariously to your kid and having them be a trophy.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

So it is really an interesting thing to consider that there was child labor and then there maybe was like, a very small blip of time where there wasn't child labor.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And now we're kind of back to it in full force, but not for everyone. Not for some, but in a lot of different ways.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. And I think that's the other thing, is people don't consider content creation labor, but it is labor. Like, anyone who's ever made content can tell you how laborious it is. And not only that, but getting a child to make content. Like, I think about this. My daughter's not even yet 2, but, like, I think about what I would have to. How much much time I would have to spend getting her to, like, do her hair just right and wear the exact outfit and pose just right and blah, blah, blah. Like, that's a lot of work, both for the kid and the parent.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. Let alone where some of these. If there's eight kids, I would say, like, we don't even do it every year. But I'm like, the worst day of the year is family photos.

[Tessa Latifi]

Totally.

[Jenny Urchin]

Isn't it? Oh, my gosh. And they're gonna get something on it. But for some families, this is what they're doing on a regular basis. So let's talk about that part you bring up. And I didn't know this. You interviewed a nanny who worked for an influencer family. So this is really a cool book because you're interviewing all these different people who have different insights that your average person wouldn't know. So the nanny was talking about how a lot of the larger influencers have,

[Host 1]

like, a staff, basically.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's Danny's. There's housekeepers, there's house managers, there's videographers, there's editors. I mean, it's an entire. It's a business, and which is, like. I can understand. Like, it is a business. Like, you need help to run a business and to even to run a house. But, like, what I find so troubling is selling this version of your life where if you only buy my Commissionable protein powder. And if you buy my schedule for $250, you will also be able to have. And as seamless and as spotless of a life as I do, but really you have that life because you have so much help. And like, that's what's troubling for me. It's not having help in the first place because, like, I have help and I'm so grateful for it. But the thing is selling this version of your life that doesn't exist and then making money to pay for that help off of people thinking they can have it on their own. Because that's what you're showing them.

[Jenny Urchin]

Right. And this is common. Like, I, I don't, I don't think I really knew, you know, when the nanny talked about, you know, they have all of these people that are helping.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

You don't realize it. And then they're going to sell you their, their course.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jenny Urchin]

For how to be balanced and to get it all done and not include that in the information. Yeah. So that was, that was interesting. And that particular nanny talked about that the toddler was really starting to internalize, like, oh, that photo wasn't good.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. Take another one. Yeah, yeah. It's wild. I mean, it's interesting like, how toddlers, like anyone who has ever had a toddler knows how like, with it they are. Like, even when I take out my phone to like take a photo of my daughter, she'll like kind of pose for me. And it's like she's not even two. So like, of course, if you're like an influencer kid, you're like taking in this information and you're like, oh, this isn't a good photo. Take it again. Like, it just, it makes so much sense.

[Jenny Urchin]

So there was a psychologist who talked about that. And you talked about this psychologist in the book where she was saying, like, kids are not really good at abstract and yet they do have a certain understanding. Like the nanny talked about with the toddler was like, I had three birthday parties. One was sponsored, one was for content, and then one was the actual birthday party. And they, they get that to a degree. But then also, I mean, they can have no understanding of the long term ramifications and really no understanding of like acting.

[Tessa Latifi]

Right. And that they are kind of an actor.

[Jenny Urchin]

Right. Because there was one mom that was like trying to coach her kid to cry.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And accidentally posted that video.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. And the kid was already crying in the video also. Like, he was like genuinely upset and she was just like trying to get him to, like, turn his face so they could, like, see the tears better in the camera. And it's like. Like, how are you supposed to understand? This is something that I think about is, like, with my daughter, like, what would she do if she were crying because she was in pain or she was upset about something? And I, like, took my phone out and recorded her. Like, I genuinely think, again, she's not even two. She's almost two. I think she would smack my phone out of my hand. Like, I think she would be like, what are you doing?

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, yeah, right. But. But, yeah, so it's just. You can see how in certain ways, it would really mess with them, but also sort of depending on the situation. So that kind of revolves around the concept of content. And you talk about that in the book. The book is called, like, Follow, subscribe, where it's just become more sensationalized and that what the algorithm rewards based on what people are watching are, like, sick kids, vomiting kids, kids that are in pain, babies. So can you talk about the concept of how that messes with everything? Because the content that's sort of rewarded is. Is kind of the less appropriate content to share. Here's an example. You gave an example of a kid on YouTube, possibly the most popular kid on YouTube named Ryan, who does toy unboxing videos and doesn't really share hardly any personal content at all.

[Tessa Latifi]

No.

[Jenny Urchin]

Like, well, he's made a lot of money and, you know, people don't really know much about his personal life. But for some people, that's not working.

[Tessa Latifi]

No, for most, I would say that's not working. He's an exception, for sure. Like, yeah, I had multiple family vloggers and mom influencers go on the record in my book and say, the content that does the best is where our child or children are sick, sad, or injured. And it's like that vulnerability that people, I don't know, crave. I think it's like the way that we can't look away from car crashes. But I think knowing that they know that consciously really makes me feel differently about them taking out their camera to record it. Because on one hand they tell you, oh, this is to raise awareness or to let other parents know that this is normal. Like, your kid getting this sick or your kid having a tantrum or whatever is normal. But it's like, I don't really know what raising awareness really means. Like, it's so amorphous, and it doesn't really, like, mean anything. Like, I think that's a really easy kind of, like, cop out. And then if they know that like their child being sick or sad or injured is going to do really well online, like how does that change their response in the moment to not maybe comfort them the way that they would if the camera weren't involved? Like, I just, and this is the thing, like when I, when I sold this book, I was seven months pregnant. When I turned in the first draft, I was seven months postpartum. And I cannot imagine my daughter being in pain or in distress and me taking out my phone to record it instead of comforting her.

[Host 1]

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[Jenny Urchin]

well, there was one where you talked about and you're like, nothing even surprises me anymore. But where the kid was having a seizure and the dad wouldn't put his phone down to call 9 1.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, the mom was telling the dad like find my phone, find my phone, go. Like we have to call 91 1. And like I imagine the dad was filming on a phone and he just kept filming and he didn't go look for the phone and he didn't put his own phone down. And the kid genuinely looked like he Was, like, on desk death's door. And, like, his siblings were crying in the background because he looked so sick. And I was just like, there's, like, a lot of things that I can understand. Like, even if I wouldn't make those choices, I can, like, sympathize with the choices that were being made. And then there's, like, stuff like that, and I'm just like, man, what were you thinking?

[Jenny Urchin]

And then they pin it.

[Tessa Latifi]

I've checked. I check every, like, few months. It's still pinned to their profile.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, that's bizarre. And, like, just turn your own phone off. You don't go find the wife's phone because you're holding a phone in your hand.

[Tessa Latifi]

But you have to record, so.

[Jenny Urchin]

And so people are saying things like, oh, they're basically. They're so lucky. Their kids get sick all the time, so their account is gonna.

[Tessa Latifi]

Family vloggers say to each other. Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Okay, so then why are people watching? You know, one of the things you say is, we. They wouldn't be making it if there wasn't a demand. What is the sort of compelling you talk about it? Like, what is the. There's, like, a psychological reason why we're kind of drawn to watch this stuff.

[Tessa Latifi]

I mean, I think it's the same reason that we, like, watch True Crime or that we, like, slow down to look at car crashes or, you know, like, we're just drawn to human vulnerability. And I think in a way that's natural. But now when it's children and when it's monetized, it becomes very complicated to me. Like, and I, Like, I'm not saying that I'm not also drawn to vulnerability online, but, like, when it's a child, I will not. Not watch it. Like, I don't want to see a child in pain or crying or, like, I don't. I don't understand. I don't want to see that.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, yeah. So there's a. That. That would be another piece of the puzzle. Like, this came up sprinkled throughout the book. Where. Where I would say that the most of the blame that gets thrown around is against the mom. Like, the evil mom who is selling out their child. Basically.

[Tessa Latifi]

It.

[Jenny Urchin]

But then you're bringing up. Okay, well, what about the platforms? What about the businesses?

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

What about the people who are watching?

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Which is a lot of people.

[Tessa Latifi]

It's a lot of people. I mean, it wouldn't be so popular if there weren't so many people watching it.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, but then you talk about how this sort of mundane, like, Looking into other people's lives, it sort of gives us a framework for our own life. And then we develop these parasocial relationships.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

With the kids themselves.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh, yeah. I mean, people feel wildly connected to the children that they watch online to the point where sometimes, as is becoming more common, family influencers or mom influencers will take their kids offline and fans like, lose their minds. Like, they're like, you know, they're like crying. They're like posting photos of themselves crying. They're like commenting on the mom's content and being like, like tell them that their tick tock aunties miss them. And like, and like the women that I've talked to who have taken their kids offline and have gotten this intensive a reaction told me this is exactly how I know I did the right thing.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. Because they become connected. It's just, the whole thing is just so odd. But the tick tock aunties are, are sending gifts often. You know, I mean, it's just.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

It's a bizarre thing. Another one that gets lack of blame are the pedophiles themselves.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

I mean, this is a whole thing that you talk about. This is, I mean, this. And this is where AI makes things really complicated.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Jenny Urchin]

Because if someone has a picture of your kid's face, then they can kind of turn that into anything. You had talked to. Like there was an FBI agent who said putting a little emoji over them is stupid. That was the word.

[Tessa Latifi]

He was. Yeah, you go. He was talking specifically about posting your child like in a diaper or like undressed and putting an emoji over like their chest or like their, if they're undressed, their private parts. And he was like, that's stupid because you're basically saying this, this will be taken the wrong way. And I'm posting it anyway.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. Yes. So with a sort of pedophilic culture. And I don't even know if that's how you pronounce how people pronounce that word.

[Tessa Latifi]

I think so.

[Jenny Urchin]

But like, no one is really, no one is really kind of talking about that either. Like, why are we even here? Like, why is this even happening?

[Tessa Latifi]

I mean, we're living in the age of the Epstein files. Right? Like, it's just, it all seems connected to me and it's. And it is this culture that fetishizes youth and that, that is pedophilic. And I think the, the thing that I struggled with the most in this reporting was parents who told me that they had gotten messages or comments from people from a Pedophilic lens and continued to post after that. I mean, that's. I don't. That's very difficult for me to understand.

[Jenny Urchin]

Well, they would say things like, their justification would be, well, what if he was sitting in the audience at my kid's dance recital?

[Tessa Latifi]

Right. It just doesn't make sense to me because it's like, okay, because there's a risk in another way that means you're not going to mitigate the risk that you know about. Like, it's like just because God forbid your kid could get hit by a car, that means they shouldn't wear a seatbelt when they're in the car. Like, it doesn't make sense.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah, there's just. Book is really good because you're just like, oh, I think this. Oh, wait, wait, you know, and then you're like, this is a different perspective. And now here's a different perspective. But, but I think it is something we're talking about that the focus is so much on the moms when there should at least be a shared focus among all of the, the parts that are contributing. But you do say the parent is the one who is the most responsible for the safety of the child. So as much as we could blame other situations or different types of, you know, culprits, it's like the parent is responsible for the safety of the child. You had. Had something in here about only fans, which this is like, I, I don't totally know. I think it's like you sell yourself privately to a bunch of people as an adult.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, it's. You have to be 18 to join. It's a lot of like nude content and there's like subscription prices that people pay to be able to like access your content and like chat with you.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Jenny Urchin]

So they're reaching out to people who are not quite 18. They're recruiting for only fans and saying if your child or you, if you're 16 or 17 would join only fans when you turn 18, you're gonna make millions of dollars. Right.

[Tessa Latifi]

Because you have this built in fan base from being a family vlogger.

[Jenny Urchin]

That is shocking. It's like sports recruiting for objectification.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, no, it's pretty bleak. It's pretty bleak.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. So you talk about that in the book, about being bait for creeps. There's a whole chapter on it, like kind of the wrong kind of attention and how to deal with perverts online. And you just, I mean, you just kind of. It goes back and forth, you know, where you talk to the kids and a lot of these kids say they love it. And, you know, these kids will say, you know, the other kids that make fun of me are just jealous because they wish they had it. And you wrote, is all this hand wringing about the privacy and rights of YouTube children useless, especially if the children enjoy it.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah.

[Tessa Latifi]

I mean, I think sometimes when I would talk to some of the kids who did really enjoy it, I would be like, well, maybe we're. We're all, like, taking this too seriously. And then I would talk to other kids who would be like, I don't tell my mom anything personal anymore because she'll make it into content. And I was like, okay, well, never mind.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yes. It's just a ping pong back and forth.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And you sort of. I do. Like. Like at the end. And this is what you said. You said you felt you had more grace, kind of, or more empathy toward the plight of other people. And it wasn't quite so black and white. And that is how I felt when I ended it, too. There's obviously some things that are like, clearly, that's not okay. And then, you know, you just really see that this is really gray and very difficult.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And you don't really know how they're going to create laws that really address it, especially when there's so much money behind it and so many forces. So I liked it.

[Tessa Latifi]

Thank you.

[Jenny Urchin]

I mean, some of these kids had millions of dollars saved.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, totally. I mean, that's more than I do at 32. So what am I? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, some of these. Yeah, they're buying houses and cars and cash. Like, I've never done that.

[Jenny Urchin]

Right. And then, you know, like, Sahil Bloom has this book called the Five Types of Wealth. That's like, money, Isn't that everything? It's only one of the types of wealth. And yeah, you're like, it's really like, we've got a child that's about to graduate, and we're like, how is he even going to afford a house?

[Host 1]

Like, stuff is so expensive.

[Jenny Urchin]

So. And then there's a lure because of community. That's another thing that you talk about, which is that, you know, women are so often so isolated and alone. All right, how about one last topic? Basically, you got to pick the book up and talk about it with your friends. That's what I think. Right.

[Tessa Latifi]

Please. And invite me to your book clubs. I want to come chat.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yes. It's called, like, follow, subscribe, Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. There's so much in here that's worth talking about. Okay, one last topic before we wrap up. The Mormon Church pays their women influencers.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah, I know.

[Jenny Urchin]

Actual money.

[Tessa Latifi]

That's like all I ever want to talk about. It's the craziest thing.

[Jenny Urchin]

Well, tell us. I mean, what? I had no idea.

[Tessa Latifi]

I mean, you think about. And I have an entire chapter, chapter on the Mormonism of influencers and why so many influencers are Mormon. And it's very multifaceted and obviously you have to read the chapter to get all the fine points. But one of the reasons is that the Mormon Church is investing actual money in their influencers.

[Jenny Urchin]

I mean, they said. And it does. It is true. They said it goes further than a billboard. Like, if we're going to invest in marketing, you know, like, well, I'd rather pay for this influencer. Like, I mean, some of them have huge followings. And then you said they're really, you know, they, they tend to look really good. They don't smoke or drink. They put a heart like a high value on appearance.

[Tessa Latifi]

So again, they're young and they have a bunch of kids and they're blonde mostly and. Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

Wow. Yeah. The algorithm loves babies, so, you know, some of them are having a lot of babies and the appeal of the traditional wife, which is like, I just gonna stay home with my kids and I don't have to worry about all these other things.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

And. But then you're like, well, are they, are they actually showing what's really going on or in some cases if they have like a whole team or something. Yeah, it's just. What a book. I was so glad to get a chance to talk to you about it. I loved it and I. It, it did. You do feel ping pongish.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

You're like, what about this? What about that? It really showcases how, how difficult, how difficult the whole thing is. And it's just, it's too difficult to draw a line in the sand.

[Tessa Latifi]

I agree.

[Jenny Urchin]

Can I think about some things?

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

But overall it's really tricky.

[Tessa Latifi]

It's very complicated. It's very complicated.

[Jenny Urchin]

Yeah. What an interesting book. I'm so thankful. Thanks for writing it. Thanks for coming on to talk about it.

[Tessa Latifi]

Thank you for having me.

[Jenny Urchin]

We always end our show with the same question, which is a total shift.

[Tessa Latifi]

Okay.

[Jenny Urchin]

What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside? Oh.

[Tessa Latifi]

You know, I feel like most of my childhood memories were outside. We, I grew up in Virginia and we lived in this kind of like planned community where like all of the neighborhoods were connected by like the. This bike path. And so I would just like get on my bike at like, I don't know, seven or eight. And I would just like ride my bike to the community pool and I would just stay there the entire day and then I would ride my bike home. And it was like the best thing. And I was always sunburnt and hungry and tired and I was having so much fun.

[Jenny Urchin]

I love it. I love it. I want to wrap up because, you know, I don't. I don't want to feel like there's kind of no answer at the end. An answer that I saw that was sort of sprinkled throughout was this thread of. You were like, look, you know these motherhood blogs. And this motherhood content is actually really helpful. Yeah. But it used to be more text based and less image focused. And there was a shift at some point where the kid became the focus. And now this is a family vlog and a kid influencer. But the mom content really, truly was helpful. And you talked about. I had a blog in 2013. You had to upload a picture to a different site.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah. And then embedded. Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

I was like, oh, my gosh, I totally forgot about that. But when things became more image central centric, it changed a lot. So I thought, like, that's a, that's a good answer for an adult, which is like, can you keep the focus on yourself, your own journey, maybe talk about your kids a little bit, but they're not like the central thing, you know?

[Tessa Latifi]

I agree.

[Jenny Urchin]

That was an interesting thing that I got out of it too.

[Tessa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urchin]

You say it's fundamentally, it's. This was interesting. It is fundamentally different to be the child of a mom blogger than it is to be the child of an influencer. Mom bloggers focus on their experiences of motherhood to the point that it almost feels like the children are secondary if they're involved in the stories. Mom bloggers, they're not telling you about their children. They're telling you about motherhood. It's centered on the women who are raising the children, not the children themselves. So interesting. Anything else you want to leave us with?

[Tessa Latifi]

Just that I hope you all go grab the book and that you enjoy it. And if you have any questions or want me to join book clubs or anything, you can find me online at High for Tessa. H I F O R T E S A And I hope you enjoy the book.

[Jenny Urchin]

Thanks for being here.

[Tessa Latifi]

Oh, my God, you just gave me so much energy for the day. I was like, dragging, and now I feel so much better. Thank you for having me.

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