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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 768: Love That Lands | Dr. Gary Chapman, The Love Language That Matters Most
00:55:45
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Ad Host)
We have had a lot of conversations on this show about how every child is different and how, especially for kids with ADHD or other learning differences, the world can feel a little overwhelming sometimes. And if you're parenting a child like that, I want to point you to a podcast called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's a space where parents are just being really honest with each other about what this journey actually looks like. The questions, the doubts, the small wins, all of it. One part of a recent episode that really stuck with me was this mom who was talking about how she started noticing things early on. Little signals that something might be different. But at the same time, everyone around her was. Was saying, she's fine. And she described that feeling so well, that back and forth between I know something's going on and what if I'm overreacting? I think so many parents have felt that tension. And then when she shared this moment where her daughter said, I can feel it talking about her body not giving her the signals she needed. And it opened up this whole understanding about how some kids experience the world so differently on a sensory level. It was such a powerful reminder that often our kids are having a hard time. And the more we understand what's going on beneath the surface, the better we can show up for them. I really appreciated how thoughtful and honest the whole conversation was. So if that sounds like something you need right now, go give it a listen. To listen search for Everyone gets a juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box.
- [01:12]
Jenny Yurch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I've been looking forward to this for so long because I've been a fan for so long. Dr. Gary Chapman, the Love Languages guy, I'm sure that's what people call you is here. Welcome, Dr. Chapman.
- [01:28]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Well, thank you. It's great to be with you.
- [01:31]
Jenny Yurch
So I learned about this, I guess, as a teenager and, you know, it kind of went sweeping through the world, these five love languages. And everyone's trying to figure out what their love languages are. And it's life changing, life changing work that you've done. And then this has spiraled into writing so many other books. So there's specific love language books like ones for your teens or, you know, you like, maybe for your marriage. But then you also have come out with books about all sorts of other things. Like I have a book here called you'd New Life with Adult Children. I mean, this is something that's really Important. I've got a book about anger. There's a book about you, lots of books about your marriage. One more. Try loving your spouse when you feel like walking away. I'm sure you've told the story so many times and you're probably slightly sick of it, but I would love if you could just give us a brief bit about how you're counseling, you're counseling families and adults and their marriages. And you have this light bulb moment where you're like, that man really loves that woman and she's just not feeling it. But more than that, you kind of sat on it for a. For some years. You started to go back your notes, you see these patterns. And it wasn't for five more years that you write the book.
- [02:39]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah. Yeah. I will never forget that first encounter when I realized that what makes one person feel loved does not make another person feel loved. I'd never met the couple. It was my first session with them. I found out they'd been married to each other for 30 years. And after we had talked a bit, the wife said, Dr. Chapman, let me just tell you the main problem. I just don't feel any love coming from him. We don't argue, we are civil with each other, but he lives his life and I live my life and there's nothing going on between us. And I just feel empty inside and I don't know how long I can go on like this. Well, I looked over at her husband and he said, I don't understand her. I do everything I can to show her that I love her. I don't know what else I can do. And I said, well, what do you do to show your love to her? He said, well, I get home from work before she does. So I start the evening meal. Sometimes I have it ready when she gets home. If not, she'll help me after we eat. I wash the dishes every night. On Thursday I vacuumed the floors. On Saturday I washed the car, I mowed the grass. I help her with the laundry. And he went on. And I was beginning to wonder in my mind, what does this woman do? It sounded like he was doing everything. And he said, I don't know what else I can do. I looked back at her and she started crying. And she said, he's right. He is a hard working man and I appreciate all those things he does. But we don't ever talk. We haven't talked in 20 years. He's always mowing the grass, washing the dishes, vacuuming the floors, always doing something. And I realized here was A sincere husband who was doing everything he knew to do to show his wife that he loved her, and a wife who didn't get it emotionally. And after that, I had similar stories over and over in my office. And that's when I began to think, you know, there's got to be a pattern to this. There's got to be a key to this. And so I read, as you mentioned, I went back and read several years of notes that I made when I was counseling and asked myself the question, when someone said, I feel like my spouse doesn't love me, what did they want? What were they complaining about? And their answers fell into five categories. And I later called them the five love languages. And I started using that in my counseling. If you want her to feel love, you've got to learn to express your love in her love language. And if you want him to feel love, you've got to learn to speak his love language. And that would help couples discover their love language, challenge them to go home and try it. And sometimes they'd come back in two or three weeks and say, you know, Gary, this is making a difference. The climate's different already. And then I start teaching it in small groups in my church. And the same thing happened. And probably, as you said five years later, I thought, you know, if I could put this concept in a book and write it in the language of the common person, leave out psychological terms that people would not understand, maybe I could help a lot of couples that I would never have time to see in my office. Little did I know the book would sell now, over 20 million copies, be published in over 50 languages around the world. So, you know, it's a simple concept, but it makes a huge difference whether it's a marriage relationship or a parent child relationship or any close relationship. Because the important thing is we all pretty much agree one of our deepest emotional needs as humans is the need to feel loved by the significant people in our lives. I like to picture every child has a love tank. And if that love tank is full, that is, the child genuinely feels loved by the parents. The child tends to grow up emotionally healthy. But if the love tank is empty and they do not feel loved by the parents, the child tends to grow up with many internal emotional struggles, and in the teenage years, often goes looking for love in the wrong places. So I say to parents, the question is not, do you love your children? The question is, do your children feel loved? And if you're not speaking their primary language, they won't feel loved, even though you're speaking love in another way.
- [07:19]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. 20 million copies. And then I love that it opened the door for you to write all these other books as well that people need, you know, I'm sure. So it's like, well, what else. What else do you want to talk about? What else do you write about? You know, how do. How do we relate with our adult children? But you said something that, you know just recently, that this is a simple concept, and that's part of why I really love this book. The love language that matters most. This is the one that just came out, how to personalize love. So they really feel it. And it does, on the surface, appear to be this very simple concept. But this book goes into the different nuances that I would have never considered. So to give an example, you go through with each of the different love languages, you go through what are called primary dialects. And it does make so much sense. You know, when you talk about words of affirmation and, you know, that might be a compliment, that might be encouraging someone, there's all sorts of different ways that we could affirm somebody. And I didn't realize that. I didn't think about it, or I think one of the examples that really make it. Make it clear are the gifts. Like, someone might really like an extravagant gift, or they might really like a gift that is functional for them. You know, it makes their life easier. So what you explain in this book is that for someone who values a sensible gift, they actually might not want an extravagant gift. Maybe it talks too much, costs too much money. They feel uncomfortable. It feels unnecessary. So this is a really important book to get those details down and to really start to become a person that observes and listens to the people around you. So can you talk about what might happen when you try and it falls flat because you didn't quite get the nuance of it correct?
- [09:04]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah. What gave rise to this new book was through the years I've had people ask me, you know, Dr. Chapman, in your original book on the five love languages, you mentioned that these love languages have dialects, but you didn't share what they are. And I've heard that several times. And so that's one of the things that motivated me to write this book. And of course, I wrote it with Les and Leslie Parrott. Many of your listeners may know them. They live in Seattle, and they've written several books on marriage. He's a psychologist, and she is a marriage and family life therapist. So I teamed up with them, and I said, you know, we've got to spell this out for the people. And also people said, well, you've also mentioned that there's personalities. We all have personalities. And that interfaces with the love languages. So that's the other issue we're dealing with in this book. But this whole thing of, you know, you're trying to speak their language, but it seems to fall flat. It's just not coming through. And a lot of times it's because you're speaking the broad language, but you're not speaking the dialect you're speaking. For example, maybe words of affirmation is your spouse's language. So what you do is give them encouraging words. You say things like, you know, honey, you would be really good at this. I just observed you, and I just think it would be really, really good for you. You're great at this. And they think they're giving words of affirmation, but the person that's hearing it is hearing they want me to do something. I don't have any interest in that. They're encouraging me. I just feel they're putting pressure on me. So it just kind of falls flat. It doesn't accomplish the purpose you thought you were accomplishing, because maybe their language, their dialect, is compliments. You know, they just like you say, honey, you look really nice in that outfit, you know, or I really appreciate what you do. Just compliments about their personality or the way they look or the way they act, or to say, you know, honey, I heard your conversation the other day with Johnny, or this morning, I heard you talking to Johnny, our son. That was a great parenting conversation, girl. You did really good on that. You know, see, it's just. It's an. It's a. It's so understanding the dialect is going to make a difference. And that's why I'm really excited about this book.
- [11:30]
Jenny Yurch
Yes.
- [11:31]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Is because it's going to make a real difference for the people that have already read the original book. This is going to really help them be more effective.
- [11:38]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot in here about listening and really caring and empathy. So you wrote, you want to be able to speak another's love language with fluency, and just because you might know which one they are, you might not speak it quite right. And you say it's a disheartening experience when you pour your energy into showing love, believing you've cracked the code, only to watch it land with a dull thud. I had an example of this. I had a boyfriend in high school, and then we went to college and I stayed home and he went to Taylor University in Indiana. And so we had this like long distance thing, but it was back when cell phones were like, you could only talk and text at like 9pm and so anyways, it's kind of a hard relationship to keep up and I like to give gifts, so. And I think I'm pretty good at it. But then I, when I read the book, I was like, I actually don't know if I'm good at all the dialects. But anyway, I, when I went up to go visit him, or I guess went down to go visit him, I had bought him this vest. Like, he liked this REI store, like outdoors type stuff, and I bought him this vest and it just didn't like fit him quite right or he didn't like really like it. So he gave it back to me. And I like feel like that was like a turning point for me. I was like. I mean, I was so disheartened.
- [12:58]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah.
- [12:59]
Jenny Yurch
So it is just such an interesting thing to think about your own experiences when you've tried to love somebody well and it doesn't land. And so you wrote, you know, this can really affect you. The doubt can come in. You wonder if you'll ever get it right. You're really vulnerable. And so you talk about. These are like misfires in love. So this book is really going to help you become a love language virtuoso. It's called the Love Language that Matters Most. A lot of this is about really seeing the people around us and really caring for them. Could you talk about the experiment? So there's an experiment in the book. I love this part. I Love this part, Dr. Chapman, where we just had this experience this morning, you know, trying to get kids to where they need to go. And it was about, you know, like, we're talking about the Good Samaritan and, you know, like, helping people in need. And so they did this study about if people would actually help somebody in need. And a lot of it came down to the sense of urgency that that person felt about their own stuff.
- [13:57]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What they did, it was a research project. They assigned a certain number of students. These are graduate college students that you're gonna, you're gonna speak on the Good Samaritan story, you know, helping the person that you find by the side of the road or whatever. And so they just, just talked about that story and they said, now you're going to go over and give a lecture on this topic, you know, for five minutes. Five minute lecture. And so they would send them one at a time. And so for some of them. They didn't say anything to them except, you know, you better get on over there, because it's. It's. It's. It's got just five minutes when you. You're going, well, they planted someone on the way to the other room where they were going to be doing this, that was having problems down on the ground and obviously struggling. And the people would look at the person, but they didn't stop because they were going to get over there and
- [14:57]
Jenny Yurch
give their speech about the Good Samaritan.
- [15:00]
Dr. Gary Chapman
So they weren't practicing what they were going to go over there and talk about, because it was their agenda. They were following their agenda. The point we make in the book is that we all have an agenda. Every single day, we have an agenda. Whether it's. Some of it is work, you know, some of it is a lot of other things, but we are into our own agenda. And consequently, that often keeps us from spending time with our spouse or with our children that would be very meaningful to them and communicate love to them. But we're busy doing good things for them. I had a really sad experience just recently. I was at the cemetery, and this gentleman had died, and the service was all over, and they told me that this was his son over here. He was 25 years old, and I never met him, but I got a conversation going with him, and I said, what do you remember most about your father? And he said, well, to be very honest with you, I never knew my father. I said, what do you mean by that? He said, well, every Monday morning, my dad got on a plane and went off to work, and he didn't come home till Friday. And then Saturday, he played golf all day with his buddies. And Sunday morning, he would sleep till about noon, and after lunch, he watched football on television all afternoon. So he never came to any of my games. I never spent any time with him. I just really never got to know him. He said, now he provided for our family, and he paid my way through college, and I'm very grateful for that. But I just really never got to know him. And I walked away with tears in my eyes because I knew that father thought he was doing a wonderful thing. He was following his agenda, and his purpose was to support his family, and he was doing it and doing it well, but no time to build a relationship with the son that he was supporting, you know, and that's an extreme case, I think. But, you know, we all have our agendas, and if we don't, you know, our spouse may want to talk to us Maybe their language is quality time and they want to have a conversation, but we always got something else on our mind. You know, we don't. We got to go do this. I don't have time right now, honey. So we can go through life on our own agenda and not meet the emotional need of the people that are most important to us, you know, our spouse and our children.
- [17:32]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. The book is such a wonderful resource. It really opens your mind to paying more attention, Pay more attention to the people around you. Because if the person's love language is quality time, they may want it to be quality time that's consistent. They might want it to be on the calendar so they have something to look forward to, or they may want it to be more spontaneous. And it just reminds you that people are complex. They have this beautiful complexity around them, and it shows our love when we start to learn those complexities that they have.
- [18:02]
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- [21:39]
Jenny Yurch
so this agenda. You know we're too busy. You wrote when our agenda takes center stage, it becomes nearly impossible to focus on someone else's love language, let alone their unique dialect. So then you go into a part about listening and you say, true listening is rare. It's astonishingly rare. That's the wording you use, astonishingly rare. And you just actually gave an example of the most important question you'll ever ask. Your example that you gave was, what do you mean by that? When the person said, I never really knew my father and you said, what do you mean by that? So can you talk about the importance of a follow up question?
- [22:18]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yes, I think in conversations we often don't have a conversation that could be a conversation. The spouse says something, you know, had a hard time at work today. And they say, I'm sorry to hear that, honey, that's it, you can go anywhere. But if you say, well, tell me about it, honey, what happened? And they start telling you, and then they tell you something and then you ask another question about it, you know, and then you keep asking questions and they'll keep talking. But many times we don't have a conversation because we don't ask a question. My wife is great at this with other people. She can meet a stranger in a grocery store and in 30 minutes she knows their whole life story. She just starts with a question, you know, and just keeps going. And people talk because let's face it, many people don't have anybody to talk to. They'll talk to a stranger if they ask questions. So in a marriage relationship and with the children, you know, let's say a child comes home and they bring a piece of art that they did that day in school and you look at it as a parent and you say, honey, that's really nice, you did a good job with that. That's it. But if you say to them, you know, that's really nice, you did a good job with that. What were you thinking when you drew that picture? They said, well, I was remembering the time we were down at grandmother's house and we had that picnic outside and the dog ate my hot dog. And this is the dog. I didn't like him then, but I like him now. And you just keep on asking questions to that child. They'll talk and talk and talk about what's behind that picture. But you have to ask questions. Otherwise you just say, it's nice, you did a good job. I mean, it's affirming word, but it's not quality time. You're not giving them attention. So asking questions, which incidentally helps children learn how to talk, how to have conversations with people. And in today's world, as you may know well know, so many children are growing up with their heads in the screen all the time and they don't even know how to have a conversation with anybody.
- [24:35]
Jenny Yurch
Right?
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Dr. Gary Chapman
They don't because they haven't had one with their parents. So that whole thing of asking questions and continuing to ask questions foster good communication. I'll give you an illustration too, about that thing you said about quality time that some people like planned quality time and others like spontaneous. There was a guy at dinner on Friday night, He said to his wife, he knew her language was quality time. So he said to her, honey, how about tomorrow morning we get up early and go up to Pilot Mountain and have a hike and just the two of us all morning long. And he thought, man, he's hitting a home run. Gonna spend half of a morning, a half a day with her. She said, honey, I've got Saturday already planned. He said, oh, you can push those off till next Saturday. So he thinks he's hitting a home run. She thinks he's pressuring her to do something that interferes with what she's already got planned. So she's a planner. She would love to go hiking with you one morning, but let's put it on the calendar for next Saturday or the Saturday after that. Knowing the difference. Knowing the difference in the dialect makes a huge difference. There are other people that, yeah, spontaneous is fine for them. You don't despair of the moment, man. Yeah, they'll do it. But if that's not their dialect, they feel pressured rather. Rather than feeling loved.
- [26:03]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, the opposite. It's a misfire, like you said.
- [26:05]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah.
- [26:06]
Jenny Yurch
There's this incredible resource called, and I'm talking with this author later this week called the Six Conversations by Heather Holloman. And you had written the forward. You're just kind of everywhere. So I was like, oh, it actually went well with this, you know, this topic of follow up questions because she gives six different types of follow up questions that you could ask. Like social media, you know, who, oh, who were you sitting with in art class when you made that? Or you know what, like that type of thing, like the physical. What type of medium did you use? You know, were you using colored pencils or markers? Anyway, just interesting. And so I was like, oh, of course Gary wrote the fore to this book. You're kind of everywhere. I interviewed this lady, Arlene Pellicane. Your name was all over her books. I was like, okay, this is fantastic. But really important to truly listen. You wrote in the absence of true listening, even the Most seen person in the room can feel invisible. But when someone listens, truly listens, it is an act of connection and care. If we don't listen, our attempts to speak another's love language risk becoming hollow gestures like giving someone flowers when they're allergic or planning a surprise party for an introvert. Such great examples. So listening is more than a skill, it's a posture. What comes next, you know, the follow up is where the heart of conversation begins. So let's talk about the structure of this book. So it's called the love language that matters most. And you go through the different love languages and you address a couple important things. You address the dialects. We already talked about that. So there's different primary dialects. 3, 4 primary dialects. Physical Touch has 7, 7 primary dialects. Like, you know, does the person want playfulness? Do they want a high five? Do they want a massage? Like, there's a lot of different ways that this can go. So you talk about the dialects, but then you also talk about when it matters most, when to hold back, and how words or whatever the gifts, how it can get lost in translation. I would never have considered that. So could you give an example of, you know, you think, oh, this person loves gifts or this person loves quality time. You want to heap it on. I'm going to heap on the words of affirmation. But can you give an example of when it would be a time when you would have to pay attention to know, to hold back?
- [28:27]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah. Let's say that finances are tight and this husband could be the wife either way. But let's say the husband thinks, I'm going to really, really, really give her a nice gift for her birthday or, you know, some occasion, he spends a whole lot of money and buys her a really expensive piece of jewelry. And he knows, man gives us her language, this is going to really communicate to her. And so he gives it to her, you know, and she realizes, oh my goodness, this is expensive. We don't have this kind of money. And she's already feeling pressure because they don't have a lot of money. And she may well say to him, honey, how much did you pay for this? And if he tells her, she's going to say, oh, honey, honey, we can't afford this. So he felt like he did something really super, super. But fanciful gifts is not really her dialect. What she liked was practical gifts, you know, sensible things. Like she would much have preferred that he just give her something that costs less money or it doesn't even have to cost anything. It's the sentimental. I had a guy say to me, I knew her language was gifts. And I was walking one morning, and I saw a bird feather, and I picked it up and brushed it off. And when I got home, I said, honey, when I was walking today, I found this bird feather, and I want to give it to you because it reminded me that you are the wind beneath my wings. And she said, oh, honey, that is so sweet. Didn't cost him a penny, you know, he was just thoughtful. He actually gave her a gift and words of affirmation. So understanding what their dialect is is going to help, you know, whether or not an expensive gift would be appreciated. And, of course, if you got plenty of money, then that's a different thing, you know, But. But not everybody has plenty of money. So understanding. You can speak their language. Because I've had couples say, well, you know, her language is gifts, but we can't afford gifts. You know, I'm saying, you know, we've always said it's the thought that counts now, not the thought left in your head, but the gift that came out of your thought. You know, maybe a special candy bar that they like. You know, you say, well, but they're grown. They're not a kid. No, but if they like that candy bar, you give them one. Oh, they're going to know you were thinking about them when you were at the store.
- [31:05]
Jenny Yurch
So, yeah, it matters a lot. And what a perfect example, Dr. Chapman, for this podcast, which is trying to get outside a bird feather. That might be your answer. It matters a lot. I've shared this story before. My husband's fine with me sharing it, so I'm gonna share it with you. It matters a lot because if you. If you misfire, if you get it wrong, it often makes you feel like the other person doesn't know you. So We've been married 22 years, and for my birthday, I'm just a little bit more. I don't. Shy is probably not the word, but I don't like being the center of attention. And so for my birthday and I was coming down, we've got, you know, we've got five kids, like, breakfast. My husband goes, I did something, but you might hate it. And I was like, okay. And so he had. I just. I'm like, on my birthday, I just don't want to be the center of attention. I feel obligated to, like, text everybody back. I just want to delete my social media for the day. I kind of want to just crawl into a hole. So what he had done was he had reached out to so many people and they had sent in videos wishing me a happy birthday. And it was like people. It was just like a. Such a lot. It was a large group of people. I was embarrassed. And it was such a. Some people would love that.
- [32:26]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Oh, yes.
- [32:26]
Jenny Yurch
And it was very thoughtful and it took a lot of time, but I ended up feeling like we've been married 22 years and you don't know me. And I'm sure you have story after story.
- [32:40]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Oh, yeah, many stories like that, you know, because if a person. You mentioned personality. If a person's personality is more introverted, you know, they don't feel real comfortable with things like that in front of other people. It's done more in private would be meaningful to them. But if you don't take into account their personality, you're likely to do make that kind of mistake, you know, and you put a whole lot of work in it. But, you know, it fell. Not even fell flat. It was negative. I didn't even watch the whole thing.
- [33:14]
Jenny Yurch
And then people. People were like, did you get my birthday message? And I was like, well, it's kind of. There's kind of an issue. So you. You just see how it matters. It matters to learn the different nuances of it. So let's talk about. Since this got brought up, let's talk about. This book actually kicks off with these incredible charts. It's kind of towards the beginning of the different personalities and how these different love languages might look. We've talked about introversion and extroversion. I actually, that seems to be the one people focus on a lot is introvert, extrovert. But this includes cautious versus curious, carefree versus dependable, cool versus warm. Can you give some insight? There was a study from Texas A and M. How good are we at like learning and understanding other people's personalities?
- [34:04]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Yeah, I think we sometimes don't take time to really learn each other's personality. And consequently we do what would be meaningful to us. And I've had other illustrations exactly like the one you gave where they gave a party. I remember the gal, she said it was his 30th birthday. And I told him, I said, I'm going to take you out for dinner tonight and I'm going to drive the car. So she drove and they pulled up in front of a house. He said, what are we doing here? She said, jim and Joe wanted us to stop by for a minute. They go in and there's 30 people there. He walks in, 30 people at this birthday party, and he was nice, he did the best he could to be friendly and all that. But in his mind, taking him to a restaurant so the two of them could have quality time with each other, far more meaningful to him. He was an introvert. He didn't feel good about, as you see it, being the center of attention. So that sort of thing can happen all the time. And so, you know, I think I remember a husband, his wife's language was gifts. And so he, on Valentine's Day he gave her a new food mixer, you know, electric mixer, really nice, top of the line mixer, you know. But it was Valentine's Day and he gave her a practical gift. But what she would much preferred would be a sentimental gift. You know, if he had just written her a note and had it framed or something with a bird feather or a picture of something they had done together and had it framed, that would have been much more meaningful to her. So, you know, understanding all of that is just going to help people be much, much more in touch with each other. And consequently their behavior and their energy is going to be spent in the best possible way in meeting the other person's need for love. You know, the title of the book is you said the love language that matters most. Some people have seen that title and said, which one is it? Which one is it? And in the first paragraph we make it clear. The love language that matters most is the love language of the person in front of you, your partner. Because we're all self centered and there have been a lot of people that read the original book and they took the little free quiz and they got their love language down and they told their spouse, now this is my love language. If you want to show me love, this is the way you do it. And then if they don't do it, they say, now if you really love me, you would. You really love me, you would. And they make their spouse feel guilty because they're focusing on themselves. Well, love is for the benefit of the other person. It starts with an attitude, not a feeling. Now falling in love starts with a feeling, okay? But long term love is an attitude. I am in this relationship to enrich your life. I want to help you become the person, the best person you can be. Anything I can do that's going to help you, that's what I want to do. That's the attitude of love. And we either have an attitude of love or we have an attitude of selfishness. I'm in this marriage for you to make me happy and you're not making me Happy. And there are people that come to the point of divorce, and that's their reasoning. And they actually say things like that, you know, you're just not making me happy. I don't feel loved by you. I'm out of here. And by that time, sometimes they're already attracted to somebody else, somewhere else at work or somewhere else, you know, but they're bailing out because they're saying, I'm selfish. I'm in this marriage for you to make me happy. You haven't made me happy, so I'm out. It's selfishness, the opposite of love. Love is that an attitude is a fixed way of thinking you have. An attitude of love toward your spouse means you want to do everything you can that will enrich their life.
- [38:20]
Jenny Yurch
I read a book earlier this year by this woman named Hera. It was last year, Hera Estrof Morano, and it's called the Nation of Wimps. And she said in there. So she's an editor at Psychology Today, and she was talking about divorce. So in this kind of context that you're talking about here, where you're like, oh, I just don't feel loved enough. And you're like, it comes up a lot. So she was talking about how we're in this day and age of over parenting, you know, like, oh, I'm not going to let my kid go around the block. You know, that's dangerous for them. I'm not going to let my kid do this, that, or the other thing. And she said this. If parents were truly serious about attacking risks as opposed to projecting their own fears and uncertainties, they might focus on the important events that go on every day in America's households that are a far more immediate harm to children than the possibility of kidnapping. Based on the report of an abduction in Colorado, if we are serious about protecting the kids from risk, we would attend to larger and more present dangers. Adults might fight harder to repair unsatisfying marriages. I was like, whoa, nobody really talks like that.
- [39:29]
Dr. Gary Chapman
I know, I know, but that's powerful, and that's very true. You know, I wrote another book. I think maybe you held it up earlier. Loving your spouse when you feel like walking away. Sometimes when you don't feel loved after a while. Yeah, another one. One more. Try. What to do when your marriage is falling apart. Typically, what we do is we blame the other person. But you can love the other person even though you don't feel loved yourself, because love is an attitude. And so you can say to yourself, I'm going to speak my spouse's love language, I'm going to try to do it at least once a week in a meaningful way, even though I don't feel loved by them and they're not speaking my language, you are having the most positive influence you could ever have on that person because you're meeting one of their most basic needs. See, we influence each other in a marriage every single day. It's just a matter of is it going to be a positive influence or is it going to be a negative influence? When we're telling them, criticizing them, you know, if you love me, you would do this. You love me, you do this. When you're criticizing them, you're having a negative impact on them. You give them love that they don't deserve in a language that's meaningful to them, you're having a positive influence on them because love stimulates love. So even if sometimes only one person will come to my office for counseling, spouse won't come for counseling. They won't read a book on marriage. They don't even want to talk about us. And I say, would you be willing to do an experiment with me? If we can sit here and figure out your spouse's love language, would you be willing to do your best to speak it at least once a week for the next six months? And let's just see what happens. And if you will, I'll meet with you every three weeks and kind of walk with you through the journey. It's amazing what happens if a person's willing to do that. It doesn't happen in three weeks, but three months, four months, man, that person's beginning to think, man, I don't know. I gotta shape up here. This woman's loving me, man. I gotta. Love stimulates love. It's amazing what can happen. So.
- [41:44]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, well, I love that. There's so much hope in that. I love it. You're feeling the love tank. So. You know, another thing I thought about this particular book, the love language that matters most is that it's. It really. It's like a tool toward a more fulfilling life, but also something that you could use to start to guide your children. So here's an example. I've got a daughter, and she, like, you know, she loves her friends like she's a teenager, like all teenagers say. Like, you know, they got these friendships, these girls they really like. And one of them's. Their birthday is coming up and she's super stressed out. She's actually. So. I love buying gifts. She hates buying gifts. She gets super Nervous about it, what if they don't like it? And I thought, well, this is a really great tool to use to start to talk with your kids, depending on their ages. Where I could say beforehand I would have been like God's kind of a big blanket problem. Like what do they like? You know, what does your friend like? But instead I could be like, do you think your friend might want a functional gift, something sensible, something sentimental, something fanciful? And so there's ways that you can kind of start to hone in on these things and teach them to your children to be a better payer attention, pay your attention of other people. And so I love that as a tool for parenting as we start to kind of guide our kids and they, maybe they're, they're having trouble building friendships or you know, they're having trouble like in this example of what to get a friend for their birthday or for Christmas. And so you're starting to teach them how to look out in how to love people that way. So I mean it's an incredible, incredible tool. I learned so much and I like I said I've known about the love languages since I was a teenager. And I mean some people are probably like, do I really need to read another love language book? I was like, oh yeah. Like I, I didn't get it, you know, I didn't get the, you know, the little specific twists on it and how you really could think you're doing it in a way that would portray love. And it's not, it's, it's falling flat or, or opposite. It's, it's almost opposite of what they're looking for. So it's a fantastic resource and it's going to help you understand yourself better. It's going to help you understand your kids better and your spouse and your friends. So a lot in there for that. At what point? This is what I was curious about. So the book comes out, obviously you said it's a 20 million copies. I've got two books right here. This one sold 10,000.
- [44:14]
Dr. Gary Chapman
That's 20 million. The average book. 10,000 is good.
- [44:20]
Jenny Yurch
20 million. Okay, so 20 million copies it sells. And then obviously there was different ones that came out. Like for example, there's this one that's you know, similar theme, a teens guide to, to the five level languages.
- [44:35]
Podcast Host (Ad Host)
Right.
- [44:35]
Jenny Yurch
You had some different variations. What was the first book you wrote that was not a specific love languages book? Were you, I guess my question is, were you excited that once, as I think once you're a good author, then they'll kind of let you write a
- [44:49]
Podcast Host (Ad Host)
lot of stuff, right?
- [44:50]
Jenny Yurch
Like they know people are going to buy your stuff. Were there other topics that you were like, oh, I'm excited to write about this?
- [44:56]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Oh, yes. I wrote two books before I wrote the Five Love Languages. One of them is called the Marriage youe've Always Wanted, which deals with several different topics. And the other one is that one we mentioned earlier, one more try what to do when your marriage is falling apart. So the Love Languages was the third book that I wrote and then the spin offs from that, you know, the five Love languages of children, four Parents, Five Love Languages of Teenagers, four Parents. And then, as you said, the Teens guide to the 5 Love Language special edition for single adults, applying the concept to their relationship with their parents, their siblings, their college roommates, their dating partners. And then one for how this works in a blended family wrote that with Ron Deal, who's worked in that area for many years, how it works with adopted children, how it works with special needs children. I wrote one with a medical doctor on how it helps caregivers of dementia patients. It's not that they keep the same language, but it gives you five ways to reach in and touch them because their emotional part of their brain is still alive even when they can't communicate. He said, for example, his own wife had Alzheimer's. He said she got to the place she couldn't communicate at all. And he said when she was healthy, gifts was her number five least important. But in that stage, he said if I would give her an ice cream cone, she would say, ooh, ooh, ooh. He said, I could live on that for three weeks. I knew I had touched her, you know, in a positive way. And my wife, her brother was a professor, college professor. He got Alzheimer's. And he was at the end of the stage, he would sit there and if you sat in front of him, he would look at you, but he never said anything at all. But if you moved over here, he wouldn't even turn his head to look at you. He just looked straight ahead. So she sat in front of him and she started singing a couple of old songs that she thought he might recognize. And there was no response. But then she sang a Christian song that he learned as a child. Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so he reached out and put his hand on her hand and tears came to his eyes and she knew she had touched him. And that's the last time she saw him. Three weeks later, he died. So that book is going to help caregivers of dementia patients. I think a lot. So, yeah, there are a lot of spin offs. But then as you mentioned on other topics, the book on anger, of course, anger is mismanaged. Anger destroys marriages and relationships. But anger, it's not wrong to feel angry. We're human. We should feel angry when we encounter wrong. But we need to learn how to handle anger, not let anger handle us. And then that book you talked about, your new life with adult children, I wrote that a number of years ago, but I just revised it in this edition. The two held up because in today's world, a lot of parents are coming to my office deeply, deeply pained because their adult child has made decisions that's just breaking their heart. And sometimes they're saying to Me, you know, Dr. Chandler, what did we do wrong that our kids turned out this way? And I say, well, you know, if you think you did something wrong, think about it. If you did well, then go apologize to your child. I said, but don't assume that you did something wrong and that's what's causing them to do what they're doing. I said, you might remember in the Bible, God's first two children, Adam and Eve, went wrong and they had a perfect father. So don't blame yourself. I mean, be honest. If you feel like you have failed, acknowledge it, but don't feel that you are responsible for it. Adults are free to make decisions. All of us are free as adults. Even with God. You can walk away from God if you want to. You don't have to follow God. That's a choice. But we suffer the consequences for all of our decisions and our adult children. We have to give them the same freedom that we have to make decisions. And yes, some of them are going to hurt us, and some of them are going to hurt them. But they might learn, only learn, by suffering the consequences of the decisions they're making. But I think that book's going to help a lot of parents with the adult children because we can't treat them like they were when they were ours at home. Now they're grown. Have to give them more freedom.
- [49:50]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the amount of resources here is just tremendous. I wanted to bring up two things that are in this Life with Adult Children book that I really liked. And I think I said it already, that our oldest is a senior in high school. So I was like, this is really good timing for me to, you know, be going back through these topics. But you said this in this book that I don't think I've ever read anywhere else. Dr. Chapman, you wrote, most parents have done something right. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's so encouraging because I think the human nature is to focus so heavily on all the things that you wish you would have done different, the things you did wrong. And here's what you said to do. It is helpful to make a list of all the ways you have been a good parent. I would never have considered doing this. You should enumerate them, from the small acts to the most sacrificial, to help you see the whole picture. You want to focus on the complete relationship with your child, not only on what has gone wrong. Emphasize the positive aspects of your bond with your child and what you feel you have done well. Can you talk about what would happen in a relationship and in the heart of a parent if they did that?
- [51:01]
Dr. Gary Chapman
I think it's healthy for the parent because just by nature, if, as I said, if our children make poor decisions or whatever we think, well, that must be my fault, you know, it must be my fault. I just wasn't a good parent. But the fact is, you've done a lot of good things or your kid wouldn't even be alive, you know, writing them down and talking to yourself, you know, and saying, self, you know, you've done a lot of good things and read them out loud to yourself, just reminding you you did some good things, you know. And then, as I said, if something comes to your mind that you think there was a place where you really did fail them and all of us have along the way, then surely acknowledge it to them. And especially, you know, if you have a child that now has broken away from you as an adult and they're just not even having contact with you now. And that happens all too often in our culture today. You know, if you have any contact at all, the place to start might be with an apology. You know, just to say, you know, I've been thinking a lot about you and me and your childhood and all, and I realized that there was a certain time there in which I was not a good mother, I was not a good father. And I just want to tell you that I'm aware of that. And maybe you can think of things that I failed that haven't come to me yet. And if you can, I would certainly like for you just to share them with me because I'd like to apologize to you. I know I can't go back and change those things, but I certainly want to apologize to you for any failures that. That I've done. That may be the first step in a reconciliation process. Because if they're holding things against you and you come apologizing for some things you already know and then give them the chance to tell you other things that have hurt them through the years, man, that's the first step in breaking down the barrier.
- [53:04]
Jenny Yurch
I'm sure that you have seen so many stories like that with all the families that you've worked with over the years. Wow. And this book in particular, it's talking about, I think, a lot of the things that people are sort of a little afraid of, which is like, what
- [53:17]
Podcast Host (Ad Host)
if my adult child doesn't launch?
- [53:19]
Jenny Yurch
What if they're stuck? What if they don't get a job? What if they're still home? What if they come back and they, you know, they won't work? Or all of these types of things. So you talk about, you know, in this book, what, what do you do if your adult child is stuck? How do we make our adult children feel loved? How much should we do? How much can we do? You know, gaining money, becoming an in law, a grandparent reconciliation, like you talked about. What can I do if one adult child outshines their siblings? What if they're selling themselves short? You're like, they could do more with their lives. What do I do when I don't feel like I have anything to talk about or I don't feel close to their spouse? They get married anyway. Just fantastic. All sorts of questions. But you do say in this one, every situation can be improved. Be optimistic. Every situation can be helped. There is a reason to be optimistic. Although adult children may seem to react negatively to every effort, they will eventually. This is like what you talked about with the marriage. They will eventually absorb their parent, absorb their parents. Love, hope and optimism. Things can change. So fantastic resources, Dr. Chapman. It is such an opportunity to get a chance to talk with you. These books and these concepts have like, for, like for all the other 20 million plus people, that's only the people that have bought it. 20 million sold. Think about how many people have read it. Like they got it from the library,
- [54:44]
Podcast Host (Ad Host)
they gave it to a friend.
- [54:45]
Jenny Yurch
They read it four times themselves. You know, they bought a copy and their whole family read it. Then they gave it to their mom. You know, it's just, it's way more than that amount of people. And people can go to the website five love languages.com premium and take a five love languages premium assessment. You can even become a certified five love languages coach. So I'll make sure I'll put all those links in the show notes. You change the world, Dr. Chapman. You've changed the world. And I love that this book helps to explain the ins and outs of these love languages and encourages you to be a better observer of the people that you love. It's wonderful.
- [55:24]
Dr. Gary Chapman
It's been very encouraging to me to see how that book has helped so many people. And I mean, that's, you know, I've given my life to trying to help people with their families and their marriages, but you can only see so many people, you know, in an office. But the book continues.
- [55:41]
Jenny Yurch
You can't see 20 million.
- [55:43]
Dr. Gary Chapman
That's right. Certainly can't. But it was great to be with you and I appreciate what. What you're doing, too. Just keep up the good work. You know, we need voices like yours. So thank you. Keep on keeping on. Okay?
- [55:55]
Jenny Yurch
All right, I've got one last question for you. We always end our show with it. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:03]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Oh, my goodness. Working in the garden with my father. As long as I can remember, we had a little garden in the back where we raised all kind of stuff. And the summertime, spring and summertime, and my dad worked on the third shift in a cotton mill that was working 11 o' clock at night till, I mean, till 7 in the morning. He would come home and he would sleep while we were in school so that he could be there in the afternoon when we got home from school. And so one of the things that we did in spring and summer was always have work in the garden together. And a lot of good memories with that, of course, a lot of other things with my father, too. But I always appreciate the fact that he organized his life so that he could be with us. My sister and I was just the two of us in the afternoon and evening hours.
- [56:55]
Jenny Yurch
Do you still garden?
- [56:56]
Dr. Gary Chapman
No, I don't have a garden. I live in town and I just have a lot. I don't have a garden. I did one year try to raise some corn way out in the back of my lot and the raccoons ate it before I did.
- [57:16]
Jenny Yurch
What beautiful memories of your dad. I love that. Dr. Gary Chapman, thank you for all that you've put out into the world to affect millions and millions and millions of people for generations to come. And for this brand new book, the Love Language that Matters Most, how to Personalize Love so they really feel it. Thank you for being here.
- [57:32]
Dr. Gary Chapman
Thank you.