← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
Summer gets busy fast. One minute you're easing into warmer weather, and the next you're juggling sports schedules, swim days, camping trips, road trips, late nights around the fire, and trying to keep the house from completely falling apart in the middle of all of it. And if you're a cat family, too, there's still the everyday stuff waiting for you at home, including the litter box. That's why Whiskers Litter Robot is such a game changer. During busy seasons, it automatically cycles after every use, so you're not constantly scooping or dealing with litter cleanup every single day. It just handles the dirty work for you. And the Whisker app notifies you about your unit, like when a clean cycle is complete, when drawer levels are getting full, or if the unit needs attention. You can always track things like your cat's weight and bathroom usage over time, which makes it easy to stay aware of changes without having to constantly check in. Honestly, during a packed summer, having one last daily chore to think about makes a huge difference. Maintain your cat's litter while focusing on your growing family. Learn more about Whisker Litter robot models and starter kits today to get set up before the summer craziness arrives. Take an additional $50 off bundles with code 1000 when you shop whisker.com 1000hours that's an additional $50 off bundles with Code 1000hours@whisker.com 1000hours welcome to the 1000hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urge. I'm the host and founder of 1000 hours outside and back for the second time. But this is only the first time you're going to hear him because we had a glitch on our end. The very gracious Michael Hyatt. Thanks for coming back, Jenny.
- [01:27]
B
Thank you for having me again. And I'm just delighted. I said when when your husband reached out to me and said we we didn't record it, I just said, you know, I don't mind doing that podcast again because I felt like you and I had such great rapport.
- [01:43]
A
It's such a bummer to to lose it because it was such a fantastic conversation, but I know obviously we get a chance to have another one and
- [01:49]
B
everything happens for a reason.
- [01:51]
A
Oh, that's really nice of you to say. I am a huge fan. I've been a huge fan for a really long time. So when we realized that that one didn't record, I was like, are you kidding? Like, really? For Michael Hyatt? But I've got a lot of your books. I showed you Last time. But I have got free to focus. I have your best year ever. I have mind your mindset that you wrote with your daughter, which I think is just one of the coolest things. And then I also have living forward. So I've had these for years. And it's just such an honor to get a chance to talk with you. I also have your planner. This is an incredible planner. I have never seen a planner like this. This is called the Full Focus Planner. And this is about it's having streaks and like making sure that in the nine domains, which you talk a lot about in your best year ever. And you talk about on your podcast like life is not all about work. Like, how's your family, how's your community, how are your hobbies, how's your work? That's one part of it. You know, how is you probably know them all. How's your body, how's your mind, how's your spirit? And so you're working on your all your domains. You have motivational sayings that you could put in there. What are your key motivations or, you know, how are you going to celebrate all of that kind of stuff? So this is been deemed the best tracker ever, right. By Forbes. Best daily planner by forbes sold over 1.2 million copies. Can we kick it off, talk about the planner? We didn't talk about that last time anyway. But can you talk about how you came about with this format and obviously it works. I mean there's so many people that are using it and it helps you to not just be like a one track person.
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B
Yeah. So basically it's the operating system for putting what I teach into practice.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I would say that two of the most important books and the books that have really informed our work at Full Focus are free to focus how to achieve more by doing less. And then your best year ever.
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A
Yeah.
- [03:42]
B
And so the first one is on productivity, the second one is on goal achievement. And by the way, I make a difference between goal setting and goal achievement. Because it's one thing to set goals, it's another thing to achieve your goals. And so I'm all about the achievement of the goals. So Joel Miller, who is married to my oldest daughter Megan, who's the CEO of Full Focus, he's our chief content officer, he came to me and he said, I've got an idea, a publishing idea. Well, as it turns out, both of us had spent decades in the book publishing industry. I more than him because, you know, I'm twice his age. But at any rate, he Said, I think we should publish a planner. And I looked at him and I said, you got to be kidding me.
- [04:29]
A
Wow. It turned out to be a fantastic idea.
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B
I know it did. But at the time, I felt like there's so many things I don't like about book publishing, not the least of which is you have to front all this money to print the books and then hope they sell. And so, best case scenario, you have a lot of liquidity or cash tied up in inventory.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Worst case is you end up having to write off a lot of books you couldn't sell. So I said to him, I said, okay. I said, what's the minimum amount we can print to test this? And he said, and we could actually get it smaller today, but in 2017. He said, I think we need to print at least 10,000. I said, wow. I mean, first of all, almost probably 85 to 90% of all books published don't sell that many copies, shockingly. And I said, okay, let's do it. And so we put it on sale. He said, this is going to be beautiful because we're going to collect the money before we ever go to press, and so you don't have to put really anything at risk. And I said, okay. So we sold out of those 10,000 copies after about 30 days, before it was even published. And so we had to get back on press and order additional ones just to meet the demand. And I know I told you 1.2 million copies last time, but I thought to myself that didn't sound quite right. So we did some deeper research in it, and it's a little over 2 million now. So just.
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A
You're just hoping you break even with the 10,000. Wow. I mean, I. I am not surprised. It's phenomenal. I've got this beautiful, like, canary yellow one, but there's all these different colors that you can get, and it really is about. About having your best year ever. That's what it's about. And how to get what you want out of life.
- [06:11]
B
You're exactly right. It's really designed to help people get greater productivity so that they can really do less of what they don't want to do and more of what they do best, so that they create margin for those other eight domains of life.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And all the things that you mentioned. Yeah.
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A
So you told me this story last time, and I hope that you're okay to share it again, because nobody heard Disappeared into the Wind. But I am super impressed with Thomas Nelson. I think it's a really cool book. Publisher. And I love how their books are always in the store. And several of my friends have published with them. And so I always think they were like the premiere. When. When I talk with my. In my friend circles with people who have published books, I'm always like, oh, we talk about Thomas Nelson. And I learned through reading all about you that you were the CEO of Thomas Nelson Publishers, but you started off where they gave you this division that's like sinking. It's like a sinking ship. It's doing the worst of all because a publisher will have all these different divisions. They give you this one, it's doing the worst. They're actually losing money. And they put you in this position, like, can you turn this around? So can you talk about that story? About what. What you did? And then the response from your wife?
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B
Sure. Okay. So that's kind of become a signature story because it was such a defining moment for me. But I was initially flattered that they asked me to take over this division as a general manager. And at the time, Thomas Nelson had 14 different book publishing divisions. We had a children's book division, we had a Bible publishing division. We had gift books. We had all different kinds of books. And so he gave me this one. And I was really flattered until I learned that they probably realized I couldn't screw it up because it was so bad, it was performing so badly. And so the CEO said to me, he said, how long do you think this will take to turn this around? Well, I never turned around anything. I had never done anything like this. And I just was guessing, but I didn't want him to know how stupid I felt. And so I just said, well, I think it's going to probably take about three years. I'd really analyzed this and was scientifically giving him an answer. And he said, well, that's kind of what I was thinking, too, so why don't you have at it and if you need any help, you know, shout. I said, okay, great. So I went off for a private retreat for a weekend, just me, a legal pad, and a pen. And I started writing down everything I'd like to accomplish within three years. And I boiled it down to a set of 10 bullets, and I stated it in the present tense like it had already happened. And so I was pretty jazzed about it. And I went back, but it was, it seemed like borderline. What's the word I'm looking for? Delusional. So I said, you know, we're going to go from number 14 to number one in being the most Profitable division. We're going to go from number 14 to number one in terms of revenue growth. And we're going to publish, you know, over the course of this time, we're going to publish like, 45 New York Times bestsellers. And so I thought, I don't know if that's going to happen, but it does motivate me. So I went back and shared it with the team. I think for a few minutes they wondered if I was sober, but they said, okay. And they kind of got energized, and I convinced them. I said, look, what's the worst that can happen? I mean, maybe we get halfway there, but that'll be a big improvement of where we are now, right? So we rolled up our sleeves. We got right to work, and all of us were working long hours. I'm talking 12 to sometimes 15 hours a day. We were working weekends. We weren't taking vacations, none of that. But. And this was the shocking part of it, I was shocked. We went from number 14 to number one in revenue growth and profit and number of New York Times bestsellers in not three years, but a year and a half. 18 months.
- [10:13]
A
Unbelievable. Wow.
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B
So everybody in my division got a big fat bonus check, which, of course, turned morale around. Everybody was very excited about that. And the CEO called me to his office, and he was thanking me, and then he slid a check across the desk to me, and I opened it, and it was more than my annual salary. I had never seen a check that big. And I was just kind of, like,
- [10:39]
A
giddy and like, not even expecting it.
- [10:42]
B
No, not even expecting it. Now, this was back before we had smartphones and all that stuff. So I had to wait to tell my wife till I. I got home. And so I. I drove home just knowing that she was going to be floored. She was going to be so amazed. And this would validate all the hard work.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Except that when I walked in and I showed it to her, you know, ta da, she wasn't that impressed. And she looked at me and she teared up just a little bit. And she said, honey, we need to talk. Well, I immediately intuited that I was in trouble, and I wasn't wrong. So we went in and sat down in the den, and she started off incredibly gracious. She said, first of all, I want to make sure you know that I appreciate all your hard work and what you've accomplished, and I see that and I value it, but I also have to be honest. And then she teared up some more, and she said, if I'm honest. You're never home. And your five daughters. I have five daughters now grown. Need you now more than ever because all of them were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 20.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then she began to cry and had a hard time getting it out. And she said, if I'm honest, I feel like I'm a single mom. Well, that was a gut kick because that was not what I was going for. And I realized suddenly that I had sacrificed or almost sacrificed everything in the name of my own ambition. But I felt really confused because I felt like I've got two choices here. It seems like, in fact, I called it the impossible choice. When I wrote about it later, I said I felt like on the one hand I could keep leading a Thomas Nelson. And now my team was excited, you know, and the expectations for the CEO were even bigger. It's like, well, wow, if you could do that in 18 months, you know. So I felt under pressure there. But on the other hand, I felt like I was about to lose my family and probably my health because I could tell that there were things happening to my health that weren't good just from the sheer grind.
- [13:03]
A
Yeah.
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B
So that sent me on a search, Jenny, where I was searching for a third option. And I thought, there's got to be a way where you can win at work and succeed at life. But I didn't know how to do it. And that's when I had a conversation with one of our authors who had become a mentor by that point, John Maxwell. And I said, I think what I need is a coach. And back then, this would have been like 2003. Coaching wasn't like it is today. That was like really an outlier. And I said, well, okay. And so you recommended one name to me, guy named Daniel. And I actually went to the CEO and I said, would you guys pay for this? Because it was a lot of money. Felt like a lot of money at the time. And he said to me, he said, well, he said, why do you need a coach? You know, you're running our top performing division now. You basically turned this division around. And I said to him, I mean, this argument just came to me on the fly. I said, well, even Tiger woods, best golfer in the world, has a coach.
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A
It's true.
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B
So I need a coach. So he agreed to it. And that first meeting with my coach kind of changed everything.
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A
What a thing. And I just think it's such an incredible story because it's so understandable. You talk about in your books, you're like, I've got five kids. You know, obviously finances are important and I got to make sure that I can support these kids. But had your wife not been honest that, you know, that was a catalyst, a catalyst to where you are now. I mean, I know you went on to be CEO of Thomas Nelson Publishers now, but now you have your whole thing so people can find it. Full focus is they can find these. And I'll put the link in the show notes, but all of these books and the planner, you have your own podcast, you have like all this double win stuff, right, like when at work, but also when at home. And you really focus on these nine domains of body, mind, spirit, love, family, community, money, work and hobbies. I hope I didn't miss any of them, but. And then, and then you're able to have your daughters be involved and also a son in law, he's like helping to kick off this planner thing that sold over 2 million copies. So I mean, it's just incredible. And I think that a lot of people would feel that there is no answer. There's no answer. There's no way to double win.
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B
And if I'm honest, you know, it's not like, oh, I hired a coach and everything turned around. The next week I found the answer. You know, life is nothing but, you know, unicorns and rainbows. It wasn't that way at all. I mean, it took a long time. In fact, in that first conversation with my coach, he listened to me. You know, he's kind of asking me about my life and why I had come to him and I was doing my very best to be honest with him. And I said, or he said to me, it sounds to me like you basically have no boundaries around work. It kind of leaks into everything else in your life, right? And he said, tell me if I'm wrong. But he said, my guess is you get up at the crack of dawn, you're the first one up in your family, and you start processing email and try to get a jump on the day. And then you spend a lot of the day in meetings and all the while the work's accumulating so you feel even under more stress because you haven't made a dent in your to do list. And so then you kind of reluctantly go home from the office to have a quick meal with your family, put the kids to bed, and then you're right back on your laptop. And I said, guilty as charged, that is my day. And he said, my guess is that on the weekends you have good intentions and to spend time with the family. But you think to yourself, well, I'll just work on Saturday morning a little bit and you know, try to catch up and maybe Sunday afternoon, but you know, your work leads into the weekend. And I said, that's exactly right. And he said, and my guess is that if you take a vacation, and we haven't talked about vacations, but if you do take a vacation, you're probably not very present because you're still working and still thinking about work. And I said, that's exactly right. And so he asked me this question. He said, would you be willing to create a hard boundary around your work so you have a start time and a stop time and you hold that with a level of commitment because you know that it's really important for everything else to function in a healthy way in your life? And I said, I kind of sighed. And I said, well, what do you have in mind? And he said, well, look, it's not my life, it's your life. What do you have in mind? And I said, well, I'm willing to not work first thing in the morning and do what I know is the most important thing, which is to spend time with God and prepare myself for work. And I'm willing to stop working at 6 and not pick up the computer till the next day.
- [17:42]
A
I mean, those are huge changes.
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B
There were huge changes and it seemed like I didn't know how to do it. And in fact, I said to him, I said, I said, I'm willing to commit to that and I won't work on the weekends on vacations. But here's the question. How do I get it all done? That's right, because it's just like my to do list is not shrinking. It's like playing a giant game of Whack a Mole. Every time I cross a few things off, three things replace it. And he said, well, I think what you're going to discover is that when you establish a constraint around your work, that's when the innovation happens. And he said, it's kind of like if you're going on a vacation on a Saturday morning, you're going out of town and the Friday at the office is uber productive because, I mean, you're just like totally focused. You're super productive, you're getting it all done. And he said, what's going to happen? Because, you know, you're quitting work at 6, you're not going to engage in small talk, you're not going to engage in any distractions. And we didn't have social media back then because that would have been a huge one, but he said you're going to be more productive than ever because you know that there's a deadline approaching. And he was exactly right. And it took a few years to walk that out, but that third option became sort of the foundation for everything that followed.
- [19:03]
A
And now you're teaching other people how to do it. This time of year in homeschooling is really special. You're wrapping up projects, looking at how far your kids have come and helping them finish strong. It's also a great moment to reinforce key skills and build confidence as you head into into summer. And as routines start to shift with travel camps and more time outside, it helps to have something that keeps learning steady without over complicating your days. That's where IXL can be such a helpful tool. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged, and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out is the real time feedback and progress tracking. Kids get immediate explanations as they go and you can clearly see growth over time, what's clicking and where. A little reinforcement can go a long way. It's a simple way to finish the year strong and keep skills fresh heading into the summer. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. I think for a long time I underestimated how much your outdoor space impacts your day to day life because ours just wasn't working. It felt unfinished. We had a couple mismatched chairs, no real place to sit comfortably, and I've always had this idea that I'd add lighting or make it feel cozy, but never actually got around to it. Then we started looking on Wayfair and it made the whole process feel doable. We found pieces that actually fit our style. Simple, functional, a little bit modern, but still warm. And suddenly the space came together. We added seating, a few subtle decor touches, and now it's a place we naturally end up at the end of the day. The best part is how easy Wayfair makes it to get there. You can narrow everything down so quickly, compare options, read thousands of reviews, and feel confident in what you're choosing and delivery was seamless, which matters when you're trying to upgrade a space without adding more stress. It finally feels like a space we use instead of a void. Get prepped for patio season for way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair every style, every Home Lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day and being drawn into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable and still put together. It makes getting dressed so much simpler. And honestly, Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Quince makes it really easy to refresh your everyday this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen or organic cotton and ultra soft denim, so everything feels high quality right from the start. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at just $30 and they're breathable, easy to wear, and perfect for repeating throughout the week without getting tired of them. And I have to say, the everyday fleece joggers have been such a win for me, especially on those cooler spring mornings. They're soft, they fit really well, and they still look put together enough to wear out of the house, which I love. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmansh, not brand markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside you talk in the book that this is free to focus, which I just absolutely loved. I think it's so practical no matter where you're at in life. Like, are you an employee? Are you an employer? Are you a mom at home trying to like manage your kids? Wherever you're at in life, it's so applicable because you talk about how we we just spend so much time on these things because of especially now because of the smartphones. Professionals with smartphones engage with their work more than 70 hours a week. 70 hours if you have a smartphone. Well, pretty much everybody has one of those. The average American work week is closer to 50 hours than 41 in five works 60 hours and more. And then I want to talk about this rule of 50 because you say when you squeeze an orange, at some point there's, there's no more juice. But I want to say this before we get there, and this is interesting, talking about your story at Thomas Nelson, because you said this is 18 months. You're basically working these 15 hour days, 17 hour days. And there was a study in your book Free to Focus, where they, I guess they had studied some bankers and they said that the debilitating symptoms, which were physical and, and psychological both, that they showed up starting at year four. So it is tricky, Michael, because you, you, you know, you're in there for 18 months, you're like, okay, maybe my body feels a little off, but mostly I'm fine. And so it, it almost is like a lie to your body. Yes, that it's working, but after a couple years it's going to show up physical and psychological. But can you talk about this, this rule of 50? Because actually there is a ceiling for productivity.
- [24:02]
B
There is. And what the research shows, that after you spend about 50 hours working that there are no productivity gains. In fact, you begin to go backwards. It's counterproductive. I think all of us can relate to this. I certainly can, because there have been times when I've tried to work into the evening and I feel like I'm having to reread the same paragraph again and again. I'm having to reread the same page again and again because I'm fatigued, you know, I'm exhausted. And sometimes my wife will say to me, you know what, why don't you go to bed? You'll be fresh in the morning and it'll take you another three hours if you work on that tonight. And you could probably knock it out in 45 minutes in the morning. And she's 100% right.
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A
I love your wife.
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B
And the research bears that out. And so the rule of 50 in the case of those investment bankers. And by the way, I've known a lot of investment bankers because when I was running Thomas Nelson, we were a publicly held company and we had investment bankers doing all kinds of things, particularly when we took the company private. But they work unbelievable hours. And here's how it can relate to the rest of us. I think the reason why we're willing to endure that kind of pace, that kind of intensity is because we lie to ourselves. We convince ourselves that it's only temporary.
- [25:25]
A
Right?
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B
We think, okay, this is just a season. But the problem is when the season doesn't end, it becomes a way of life. And we go from. We sort of careen from one crisis to another. And I used to tell my wife this. I'd say, honey, look, I know this is a really intense time, but I'm kind of working two jobs because my director of marketing resigned. And so now I'm having to do my job and his job. But as soon as we get through this, you know, everything will be okay. And then it was like, well, but then we have a product launch or we have sales conference coming up. It was always something.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
And to where after a while, I mean, she just called me out on it and she said, you know, I don't think this is a season. I think this has become a way of life for you. And thank God We've been married 48 years this summer. Coming summer. And a lot of that's because my wife is. Has two impeccable qualities. She's kind and gracious, but also very direct and a truth teller. And I've benefited from that.
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A
And wise. It's a wise outlook. And. And you were wise to listen. And so you were able to make these incredible changes. Now you have. I think you told me last time. Is it 11 grandkids?
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B
Yes.
- [26:44]
A
That's so cool. What a cool life. Oh, my goodness. We have five kids, so someday I hope that we also have 11 grandkids. And this change that you make gives people hope. And people can read about it in these books of yours, Free to focus. Because everybody feels the same way you do, which is, well, then how is it supposed to get done? But you do figure it out. And you taught. You have all sorts of practical ideas in the book, but then also this push and the motivation. And the planner will help you too. The planner can help you get there as well. You talk about wanting to have the freedom to be spontaneous and the freedom to do, do nothing. And that creativity depends on those times of disengagement. So one of the things that you talk about that is specific in this book, Free to Focus, is flexing the no muscle. And you have this concept called the not to do list. But can you talk about how your calendar, you use your calendar, and I thought this is really a wise way to do it. Your calendar says no for you, even when it's the time. So you call it time blocking. Even when it's the time where you're writing. And you could say, yeah, I'll meet you for coffee, or, yeah, you know, I can have a meeting right now. But you don't because you say you have a commitment to this work that you have to get done. So your calendar can be something that says no to you. And then you also have the yes, no, yes, the yes, no, yes strategy as well, because people are like, can you, can you look at my book
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B
proposal, which happens frequently.
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A
Yep, I'm sure it does. Yes.
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B
Yeah. I think what we have to understand is that unlike every other resource, time is fixed. You have 168 hours, I have 168 hours. President Trump has 168 hours and so does a homeless person. We all have the same exact allotment of time. So when we say yes to something, we're also, and this is the deception of it, we're implicitly saying no to something else. So if somebody says to me, hey, can we grab coffee Tomorrow morning at 7:00am well, if I say yes to that, I'm saying no to my workout or I'm saying no to my quiet time. Okay, It's a trade off. Yes, I can do it. But most of the time we're not aware of what we're trading because we have an erroneous view of time. We think that, oh, we can just, time will expand, we can just jam more stuff into it. And you know, we're like the person going up for seconds that hasn't chewed what they have in their mouth. So, yeah, I think we can really let our calendar help us by really seeing that there's these fixed blocks. And so what I encourage people to do is to make sure that they. And I got this concept from Dr. Stephen Covey, put the big rocks in first. So make sure that the things that are the most important to you, and certainly that would be family. Certainly that would be time for your health. Certainly that would be time for God, if you happen to be a believer. But you put that in first. And what Dr. Covey demonstrated, there's a wonderful YouTube video that you can find on this where he's actually putting the. He has these three different size rocks. So big rocks, medium rocks, and a bunch of gravel. And so he puts in the gravel first and then he has this lady put in the medium sized rocks and the big rocks won't fit. It's full. But then she puts in, she takes another strategy. She puts in the big rocks first, then the medium sized rocks and then pours in the gravel. And it all fits beautifully. And I think that that's what we have to do. Not that it's all going to fit. That's kind of the part of the metaphor that doesn't work, but what it does mean is that the most important things get done. And so I encourage people to schedule even time for themselves. And even as it relates to work. What are the two or three things where you make your biggest contribution at work and your biggest contribution to the world? Those are the things where you need to really focus and those are the things that are important. And because they're not urgent, they often get pushed aside. And so I'll get to it sometime in the future. But when you schedule it on your calendar and like writing is a good example, I think when we were together last time, I said, you know, I have three, three mornings a week are scheduled for writing. And that's what I did this morning. And so when somebody asked me could I take a meeting at that time that's scheduled for writing, I don't go into any detail. I just say, oh, I've got another commitment, then could we find another time?
- [31:10]
A
Right.
- [31:11]
B
And sometimes it might have to be pushed out two or three or four weeks. But I'm not gonna give up on that commitment that I know is one of the big rocks that's really important.
- [31:22]
A
It's such a smart way to do it. You just say, I'm committed. You know, I'm committed to these other high priority tasks. You don't, like you said, you don't even have to go into detail, you know. Yeah, you're committed and you can do this in a lot of ways. In fact, actually, so it seems like small potatoes, but like we're just trying to get outside, right? We're really trying to prioritize hands on living in this heavy screen world. And people ask sometimes what's the hardest part about it? And I think they think I'm going to say something like snow or bugs, you know, those, those darn mosquitoes. But really it is, it is scheduling it in. It's. It's creating the time pocket to make sure that kids aren't on screens all the time. And you have to be intentional about that. And so I think for a lot of the things that we want to do in this day and age, especially with these nine domains that are important. Hobbies and money and community and family and love and your body and your spirit. It's like you have to be intentional about where your time's going. So then you have this way that you tell people the yes, no, yes, which is just a clear but kind way to tell people. And people can read about that in the book free to Focus. You know that I'm excited about your book proposal. No, due to my commitments, you know, I'm unable to look at your book proposal. But then you end with a positive.
- [32:36]
B
Yeah. So I got this concept from Dr. William Urry, who's a professor, and he wrote a book called the Power of a Positive. No. I think it's the title. It's probably footnoted there, but essentially he gave me this yes, no, yes framework. So when I get an email or an invitation, I first of all want to thank the person for thinking of me and inviting me into that thing. I don't just take it for granted, you know, that people are going to ask me to do things, and it's, you know, they've honored me in a way, so I commend them for that, you know, so if somebody's asked me to review a book proposal, that I would likely say to them, well, first of all, congratulations on getting this far. Because a lot of people say they want to write a book, and precious few actually write a book proposal, not to mention a book. So good for you. That's the yes. Here's the no, unfortunately, and this is the magic phrase, due to my. In order to honor my existing commitments, I have to say no. Now, I've been clear and I've been unequivocal. Here's what I've not said. You know, I'm really busy right now. Could you check back next week? Or could you check back in a month? Because the truth is there's not going to be a good time, and there's no world in which I'm going to say yes to that. So it's not a kindness. It just strings them along. So I give them a clear and unequivocal no. That's the no. And then I end with a yes. And I might say something like, you know, you might want to consider looking for an agent who would be happy to review it, because that's kind of what they get paid to do. Or look. I've got. And what I do in this situation is I've got an essay on how to write a winning book proposal. And you might just take a look at this, make sure that what you've written conforms to that, because thousands of authors have gotten published using that essay or that template on how to create a book proposal.
- [34:33]
A
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month. And I think it's a really important invitation to pause and check in with yourself. Where are you right now? Not where you wish you were not where you think you should be, but honestly, where are you? Because life has a way of getting busy and it's easy to carry stress, anxiety or uncertainty without really stopping to process it. And sometimes it can feel like everyone else has it figured out, but they don't. None of us do. Therapy gives you a space to sort through those thoughts with someone who's there just for you. Someone who listens, understands and helps you make sense of what feels heavy. It's not about having all the answers, it's about having support while you figure things out. Better Help makes that support accessible. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. They match you with a therapist based on a short questionnaire. And if you need to make a change, you can switch anytime. With over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served worldwide and an average of 4.9 out of 5 rating across 1.7 million reviews, you are in good hands. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com 1000 hours that's B E T T E R H L P.com 1000 hours can I just say there was a time when I felt like the family calendar was living in six different places. Some things were in my phone, some things were in Josh's head, some things were written down somewhere and a lot of it was just missed. And that constant feeling of what am I forgetting? Is exhausting. That is why I love the Skylight Calendar. It brings everything together in one place. Appointments, activities, even grocery lists. And it sinks into seamlessly with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it. So wherever something gets added, it shows up. But the feature that really surprised me is a tasks section for kids. It turns everyday responsibilities like chores or getting ready for the day into something visual and trackable. It helps build independence without me having to constantly remind everyone. And because each person has their own color, there is no confusion. No more. I didn't know. It's all right there. Skylight Calendar is designed to help families work together, which means less stress and more margin for what actually matters. And if you're not completely, completely thrilled, Skylight offers a full refund within three months, no questions asked. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendar when you go to myskylight.com 1000hours that's M Y S K Y L I g h t.com 1000 hours for $30 off
- [36:47]
B
now, here's what's really interesting, Jenny, is that sometimes my tendency, because I'm such a people pleaser, I like to say recovering people pleaser, is that I would let a request like that languish in my inbox because I didn't want to say no. Right. And so now the person's getting ticked off because they're like, gosh, you won't even respond to me. But when I respond, by the way, using a template, and then I fill in the details so I don't have to overthink it or muster the courage, well, then when I get back to them, almost not. Not always, but almost always, somebody will. They'll write back and they'll say, well, thank you for getting back to me and thank you for being clear. I totally respect that. I wish I had the guts to do that.
- [37:33]
A
Wow.
- [37:34]
B
And so nobody's ever gotten offended by it. And so, yeah, it's that simple.
- [37:41]
A
And they have direction. And then also they learn this new skill because they're like, oh, Michael just did this. I'm sure they take that skill into other situations where someone asks something of them. So you talk in this book so much about your time. Your time is fixed. You also have to think about your energy as well. And so when you're talking about this double win, which is just making sure that your life as a whole is going well, and then your podcast that you do with Megan, talking about all of these different domains, I. What I love about your books is you say, I do these things like, I want to be more efficient, not so that I can work longer hours, you know, not because success sometimes begets success, which is good, but it's not good if then you're. You're stuck because you're getting more projects, you say, I. I want. Let me actually read it so I don't mess up your words. I'm after productivity, not efficiency, which means ensuring significant margin that enables me to be fully present wherever I am. You say, the important, important people in my life deserve the very best of me. Productivity should ultimately give you more time, not require more of you. So then you talk about all the things that, you know these listeners are interested in, which are play, sleep, movement, nature, unplugging. You know, you say we need to make sure that we unplug. And you say, we're not robots. So can you talk about how your life has expanded? So obviously, I know it was not a quick turnaround. You get the coach. You obviously you moved up to CEO at Thomas Nelson. Then you branch out into your own thing. But can you talk about how does your life feel at this point? You know, thinking back to when you were the 15 to 17 hour days turning, turning the ship from the lowest branch to the highest branch in 18 months, all these New York Times bestsellers. But how do you feel today? I know you take some time off in the summer, like your life seems like it's enhanced, even though 100% your work output has also gone up too.
- [39:48]
B
Well, first of all, my life's not perfect. And I want people to understand that human flourishing is not a destination. It's a way of living in the midst of chaos and in the midst of a lot of demands. You know, you choose to make time for the things that are important. And certainly my life, even to this day, ebbs and flows. But to give you an example, and this kind of goes back to the first chapter about spontaneity is one of the freedoms is that yesterday, first of all, all five of my daughters live in Nashville, where I live. Three of them have between them the 11 grandchildren. They all live within five minutes of my house. So there's almost always somebody over every day. So yesterday was an absolutely beautiful day. It was like 78 degrees out and a couple of families were over. My. One of my granddaughters was on her way to South Africa on a mission trip. And so a bunch of people had come over. I decided I was going to get my. I have a lady that comes to my, cuts my hair every three weeks. And I said to her, I said, let's get some outside time. Let's just go cut my hair outside. Beautiful day for it. And I can be the family while you're doing it. So we did that and it was just. It was just amazing. But the key to that was not to over program my life. You can't be spontaneous if every moment is spoken for. And so I try to have blocks of white space that are unclaimed just so that I can be spontaneous when somebody shows up and I can have a conversation.
- [41:22]
A
And that's a lot of people that might be showing up. If you have five children and some are married, I don't know if they're all married, but. And 11 grandchildren. It's like an incredible amount of people just within your own immediate family. You know, that's like 16 plus people that might just be showing up.
- [41:36]
B
We almost need name tags.
- [41:39]
A
Sure. I love that you were able to make that change though. It gives people a lot of hope. And I know you were very clear. It didn't happen overnight, but over the course of time. And that is what your books focus on. This concept of double whim. I wanted to talk also about your best year ever. The subtitle here is a five step plan for achieving your most important goals. And I was hoping to talk about this. And I feel like it fits really well because so we recorded this podcast together. I thought, oh, gosh, I really connected with this guy. It was like incredible conversation, I thought, so valuable. And then I don't know, an hour later, hadn't uploaded, and I was like, where? Where is it? You know? So then there had been this whole banter back and forth between me and my husband about just the tech blip that we messed it up. And then I was like, oh, he's so busy, has so much going on, I don't even know if I'm gonna get a chance to talk with him again. And so one of the things you talk about is when you want to quit. Because at that moment I was like, I can't do this anymore. And it's not even, you know, it's not the biggest deal, but. But it is your time and it is embarrassing, but you have one. This is step four in the five step plan for achieving your most important goals, which is finding your why. And I thought this was a huge statement, Michael. You say everything important requires work. And sometimes there is a long arc between the dream and its realization. Some of us are more prepared to accept this and others, I mean, we've had a long arc. Our business story has been a pretty long arc. And there's been a lot of times where you just kind of want to hang your head and quit. You talked about, in your case, even just getting up and moving after surgery. Like, you know, you're like, I've done it for a bunch of days. Is it. Shouldn't that be good enough? And there was this quote that said, everybody looks good at the starting line. And I was like, oh, that's a great quote. But can you talk about this finding your why, what are some of your whys and how that helps you to combat the urge to quit.
- [43:37]
B
I think this is a great secret to achieving anything. And most fundamentally of having a deeply rewarding life is that you have to get in touch with your why. Because like I said in the book, you know, everybody looks great at the starting line. And I've run several half marathons in my life over the last two and a half decades. And, you know, everybody's so amped up at the start. You know, we have this rock and roll marathon here in Nashville. And, you know, it's amazing, but there's like 30, 35,000 people, you know, at the starting line, and you just feeding off each other's energy. And inevitably, especially I did this my first few races. I would go out too fast. You know, I was just like. I couldn't throttle myself back because I was running on excitement and enthusiasm. But inevitably, you hit the messy middle. And this is where you can't quite remember why you decided to do this. And that's your motivation. And it's like, what the heck was I thinking when I started this? Because this is painful or it's boring or the results aren't happening. And this is literally in every field of life. This happens in marriages, it happens in parenting. It happens in starting a business. It happens in writing a book. It happens in product launches. But, yeah, so I think at the beginning of the project, it's important when you're clear on what you want to get, also clear on why you want it, why it matters, what's at stake. Like, if I do this thing. Like, for example, I had one half marathon, and I'd been sick right up until the half marathon. And I was hoping that my physician would let me off the hook and say, yeah, you're too sick to run this half marathon. And unfortunately, he was a runner, and he said, well, actually, this is one of the best ways to clear, you know, a cold out of your life is like, going a long run like this. And I was like, oh, that's not helpful. So I read it. But at about mile 10, I was ready to quit. And then I remembered that the reason why I was running this, because I'd run several before, was because I was raising money for a local school that I really believed in, private school. And so, I mean, it's kind of funny to say it out loud, but I was. I was doing it for the children. And so I thought to myself at mile 10, when I wanted to quit and I'd run several. So I wasn't. I didn't have to prove to myself that I could do it. And I'd been sick. I had all kinds of excuses, and I said, no, those children are counting on me. And so I was able to muster the energy to finish. You know, it wasn't my best time, but I finished in my marriage. I've been married, as I said, for almost 48 years. There have been times when I wanted to quit, and I know there have been times when my wife wanted to quit. And this Is where the power of a question can really serve us, Remembering that questions are powerful. And so I could ask myself this question. I could ask myself, why do I want to get out of this marriage? Now, the way the human brain works is that it will muster its ability to answer a question that's been given. And if you ask a bad question, you're going to get a bad answer. And recognizing that, One of the things I asked myself, I blogged on this at one time, is, what are the reasons I need to stay in this marriage, what's at stake? And I started listing. It chokes me up to think about it now, all the reasons why I want to stay in this relationship, why I want to stay in this marriage. And it moved me then, and it still moves me to this day. So I think getting in touch with your why, My wife gail, says, when people lose their way or when they lose their why, they lose their way. And so I think it's really important to identify your why and to have a list like that, not only for the goals you're pursuing at the moment, but for the areas of your life that are important. Because parenting, just to use one other example, is hard. There are times when you just wonder, what were we thinking? You probably wondered this, Having five kids. People sometimes ask me on an airplane, I'd be traveling, and somebody would say, well, how many kids do you have? Well, I have five. Wow. How many do you want to have? And I'd say, well, three, but we're too late for that. So raising kids is hard, and there's times when you want to give up. But I can tell you, with five adult daughters now between the ages of 35 and 45, totally worth it. I am so glad that gail and I hung in there, because these humans are our best friends now. You know, they've made our lives richer, and I hope we've made their lives richer. So usually things that are. You want to bail on are worth staying, but you won't stay in them if you lose your why.
- [48:38]
A
Yeah. What's at stake? You got those 11 grandkids that could be wearing name tags. So many of them. What's at stake? But that's the long arc. And I think what's tricky about it, michael, is that you don't know what's at the end of the arc. And so you have to have this solid why. And you can put that in your planner, because the planner includes all the spots to really think those through. You actually gave an example I thought was a phenomenal example in the book your Best Year Ever, where you were talking about your piano lessons, and I thought this was a huge statement. So I play the piano. I love to play the piano. And it's just such a gift that my parents gave to me. They took me to lessons and my mom did. It was like a hard drive to get to the place. It was expensive. And. And you said you started piano lessons, too. Same similar age to me. You're like, at 5. And you said this. And I thought this was a huge statement. I started at age 5, but didn't enjoy it until the 9th grade. And I thought, Michael, you know, your parents, whoever took you to lessons and helped you learn, that is such a long time. That's like eight or nine years where a kid doesn't like it and is like, oh, I don't want to practice in these skills. And it wasn't until the ninth grade, and then you're like, doing a band and, like, it's really cool. Cool. But that is sort of a parallel to life. How many people have you met in your life that are like, I wish I wouldn't have quit my piano lessons. Pretty much everybody says that, but. But they quit because they. They're, you know, they're complaining about it. The parents, probably sick of them complaining about it, not practicing, but there's a long arc there. And you also told a story about your book platform. You have to turn in your manuscript by November, and you got a lot of work to do, and it got busy, and you feel like you're not going to make any progress and you're going to miss the deadline. You were discouraged. You said, honestly, I got discouraged. I didn't see any way to get it done. And despite all the work I'd already invested, I wanted to give up. Then I remembered something my wife had said to me many times before. People lose their way when they lose their why. And so you wrote down your top motivations, which was to help tens of thousands of other authors and artists and creatives who've been turned away because they don't have a platform. Number two, you wanted to establish your authority as an expert on platform building, and it would help you get speaking engagements. And you wanted to prove that you can create a platform and use it to sell books. So you grabbed your why, and then it went on to be a New York Times bestseller.
- [51:08]
B
No one was more shocked than I was. And I. I remember when I turned it in, I said to the editor, and this wasn't very smart, but I just said, you know, I want you to read it, but I don't feel that great about it. And if you think it's not publishable because Thomas Nelson was publishing it and this woman used to work for me and I didn't want her to feel the pressure, although I was still chairman of the company, so she probably did feel some pressure. But I said, I want you to be honest with me because. And she came back and she said, this is better than you think. And she said, there's a little bit of work to do for sure, but this is better than you think. And I was so relieved because I'd lost so much perspective. But just as you read it was those top three reasons that kept me going when I wanted to quit. And I would say that any endeavor that is meaningful, you're going to face the messy middle and you're going to face resistance. And I think that's what forges our character is the ability to keep going when the results aren't quite indicating success. And in fact, we may not win at all. Right. But that's where characters formed.
- [52:22]
A
Right? Right. You just don't know what the outcome's going to be. And so you just have. I mean there's fantastic. The books are fantastic. You talked in the free to focus book about how back in 1925 and there was a picture of it in the book there was this guy that was like, I keep getting distracted. So he makes this helmet that looks like when you go scuba diving or, or into space almost. So he's like, so no one will bother me. So back then it was even an issue. But now in this like attention economy that where the average employee you wrote faces a distraction every three minutes you talk about focus and bounding in your time and how this is going to really help you to accomplish what matters the most. Can we hit one more topic? This topic is from your best year ever. So I've got four of your books here. But you have written so many books. You have spent more than four decades helping thousands of business owners, CEOs, leaders, high achievers, parents grow without losing themselves in the process. And I mean the amount of books I have written down here. Mind your mindset when at work and succeed at life. Vision driven leader. Free to focus. Your best year ever Living forward platform that we just talked about. No fail habits. Entrepreneurs will save the world. No fail communication. Your world class assistant. No fill meetings. I mean, and you've got a bunch of courses people can go. There's a free to focus, free to focus course where you talk about reclaiming up to 20 hours a week. Who wouldn't want to do that? So there's, there are other things there as well, a goal setting and working with executive assistant. So I'll make sure, I'll put all the links in the show notes. But in your best year ever, you talk about belief. You have to believe. And one of the things that you combat is the idea that we don't have enough resources. And so you wrote this. It's real clear resources are never, and I mean never, the main challenge in achieving our dreams. In fact, if you already have everything you need to achieve your goal, then your goal is probably too small. There's a wide range of ages that listen in and often kids listen to, in with their parents to the podcast. So I would love for you to address that. I think there is a misconception like I need seed money. I don't, you know, I don't have what I need. And you say resources are never the main challenge.
- [54:38]
B
They're not. I would say usually the challenge is having a vision and being clear enough with that vision that you can communicate it to other people so that you can enroll them in the vision. Because a right sized vision is you can't do it all by yourself. You're going to need other people. You're going to need to be able to sell them or enroll them in that. The other thing I've noticed about resources, Jenny, is that I don't care if you're the CEO of Apple or if you're just starting a new business or you're working in a church someplace as a staff member. If you're a person who can envision a bigger, better future, you will never have enough resources because the vision always outstrips the resources. So I've heard people complain about this for my entire career. You know, if they would just give us a bigger budget or if I just had a couple more staff people or if I just had more time, let me tell you, I don't care. If I gave you all of that, you would accomplish the thing you. And then you would dream of a vision that would outstrip your resources. And so the thing that's great about not having enough resources, and this is a complete reframe, the thing that's great about not having enough resources is it forces innovation. Now, if you think of one of the least, and this is like a broad statement, but if you think like, what's the most least innovative organization in the world, it typically is government. Why? Because they have too many resources. If they were forced to live on a budget and most of them don't. I found that my own county that I'm living in right now is a billion dollars in debt. And there's so much more I can say there, but I don't want to get political. But it's just like really in a county in Tennessee, a billion dollars in debt. Well, the resources are never the problem. And the constraint forces the very thing that you need, which is innovation. And every great innovation has come because people didn't have enough resources. They somehow made it work.
- [57:01]
A
Yeah. Isn't that the truth? You say human creativity, that is your ultimate resource. These are phenomenal books. Michael. Thank you. Thank you for being so unbelievably gracious and coming back for a second time. It's been such an honor.
- [57:15]
B
Well, I'm kidding.
- [57:17]
A
Spending two hours with you. So I want to end with the question that we always end with so that people can hear your answer. We always end with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [57:27]
B
I can remember what I told you last time and I'm going to tell that story again because it really was my favorite memory from being outside with my dad. I was five years old. And I want you to picture this. We're on the shore of a lake, standing on a rock, big rock. And I have shorts on. My dad has shorts on. We both have white T shirts on. And I have a pair of red cowboy boots. And I've got my little bitty fishing pole, and my dad's got his fishing pole. And we had a whole bunch of minnows. And so we started catching crappie. And we probably caught 70 crappie. And then they were still biting and we ran out of bait. And so my dad says, no worries. He pulls out a pocket knife and starts cutting off pieces of his T shirt and putting those on the end of both of our hooks. And apparently the fish didn't know the difference because they kept biting just like they were before. So we caught over 100 fish that day. And I mean, it was just like one of the best all time memories ever. And probably explains why I have such a love of fishing to this day.
- [58:29]
A
Absolutely. What a memory. And it goes right in line with human creativity is the ultimate resource. You ran out of your resources, ran out of the minnows and that was like the human creativity, like, oh, maybe our T shirt will work. What a story. Michael, thank you. This is a life changing work that you're doing. I know you know that.
- [58:47]
B
Thank you.
- [58:48]
A
I know people tell you that all the time, but this full Focus Planner, this will change your life. It's constantly reminding you about those nine domains. It's reminding you about your morning ritual. How do you want to start your day? How do you want to shut down your day? What's your evening ritual like? All of these things, it really is what, what you say your son in law is Joe.
- [59:07]
B
Joel.
- [59:08]
A
Joel. It really is what like you said at the beginning when Joel said let's do this planner that it is taking these books and putting legs to it, like here it's, it's so actionable. And I was just blown away by how much of these books are incorporated into this kind of way to organize your life. What is your ideal week? These are things you talk about so what you could do then. And you know, it's like we're kind of ending the school year here. If people are, they've got kids. You kind of hit the summer and you're thinking about what your fall is going to be like, right? And like, oh, these book, this would be like a great thing to do would be this summer to read, free to focus and your best year and, and your best year ever. And then try the planner because it all just coincides so well. And then people can check out your podcast and your courses and all the other things that you have to offer. Michael Hyatt, thanks for being here, Jenny.
- [60:02]
B
Thank you. Loved it.