← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 815: Stop Looking For Instructions | Austin Kleon, Don't Call It Art
00:59:56
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
This episode is sponsored by Fora Travel. You know, one thing we've realized through all of our travels as a family of seven is that trip planning is almost an art form between finding the right places to stay, mapping out experiences, coordinating schedules, and helping other families figure out what actually works. With kids, it takes a real skill set. And honestly, a lot of people are already doing this naturally for friends and family without realizing it could become something more. That's why I think Fora is such an interesting idea. Fora is a modern travel agency built for people who want to create a meaningful travel business on their own terms. Maybe you've spent years organizing trips, helping others plan adventures, managing details, and building relationships. Those are real transferable skills. And the great part is you don't need prior travel industry experience to get started. Fora provides the training, technology and support system to help you build at your own pace. Plus, you get access to a community of experienced advisors who are doing the same thing. There are no sales quotas or minimums, so it can fit alongside your current season of life while you build something meaningful. Your next act starts here. Become a Fora advisor today@foratravel.com 1,000 hours. That's F O R A travel.com 1,000 hours. And make sure you tell them we sent you for a travel.com 1000hours.
- [01:14]
Jenny Ertz
Welcome to the 1000hours outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I can hardly believe it. Back for the third time, Austin Kleon.
- [01:23]
Austin Kleon
Welcome. Thank you for having me again. I thought about you so much when I was writing this book. And so, like, when we were talking, I was like, I gotta get Jenny in this book. So I'm very excited.
- [01:34]
Jenny Ertz
I'm very excited. I loved it. I told you before we kicked off, I was going back through my notes. I often have a lot of notes and I started to, like, have a second set of notes.
- [01:45]
Austin Kleon
You got notes for your notes?
- [01:47]
Jenny Ertz
Because sometimes I'm like, I missed the high points or the part I really wanted to talk about. So as I was going through to make my notes on my notes, I was getting emotional about how much I love this new book of yours. It is called don't call it Art and how I remember you told me about it the last time we spoke and I thought, oh, my goodness, it's just a brilliant concept. You know, we put so much pressure on ourselves to perform. And you say, 10 ways to create like a kid again. That's the premise of the book. It's very similar, sort of in size and scope. Although this one is hardcover, and it's hot pink or magenta. You know, it's a really cool. This cover. It just sticks out, but. And a fun one to add to your family. These books that are so inspiring. And the story is. It's very serendipitous in my. You know, from my view is that I. I told you that this man named Daniel Heffington gave out one of your books at this conference we were at. And I. And it had nothing. It was just like a gift of love and had nothing to do with, like, what they were doing. They just wanted to bless people with your ideas. And I just. I loved it, and I reached out and you said yes. So here we are, back for the third conversation. This, you talk about. This is kind of like a parenting book in disguise, I think. So it's great for families because it's going to help if your kids have kind of lost some of their creativity, but it's also going to. It's free, as an adult, like, to live a more fulfilled life. So I'm blabbering. Congratulations.
- [03:08]
Austin Kleon
Thank you. My hope is that the adults will read the book first and start doing some of the things for themselves, because I really believe that kids pick up on what we're doing, you know? And so one of the reasons I didn't want to write just a straight parenting book is that I felt like when I was reading all these parenting books, I just kept thinking to myself, why aren't we all doing this stuff, right? Like, why aren't we all giving our time ourselves, time outside? Why aren't we all, like, reading more and, like, why aren't we all, like, taking away our screen time and, like, replacing it with something better, you know? And so that was really where the impulse came from. I felt like I was lo. I was learning all these things while I was learning to love and care for my kids that I had to do for myself then.
- [03:52]
Jenny Ertz
That's right.
- [03:54]
Austin Kleon
I felt like the more I did those things for myself, the better I got it. Like, doing it for the kids. It was just like this, like, big cycle.
- [04:01]
Jenny Ertz
And there's an interesting twist here, which I think is kind of the main point. One of the things you say, you know, we have all these parenting books where we're trying to, you know, dole out advice, and here's how you do it. And the book even talks about, can we just get rid of all these instructions? There's so many instructions all the time, but what you say is, actually, I'm learning from my kids. I love to kick off with that. You know, we just think we're older, we're decades older. We know all the things. And you're like, I. I didn't even go to art school. But the. The place I'm learning the most is from my own children.
- [04:35]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I mean, I think I was like, a lot of dad. You know, the kind of, like the culturally dominant view of the dad is someone who comes in is like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna teach these kids all these things, right? I'm gonna, like, teach them how to ride a bike and throw a football. I'm gonna do this and that and whatever. And I think as a artsy, fartsy dad, I came in thinking, well, I'm a. You know, I know how to draw and I know how to make stuff. And, like, I'm a creativity. I've sold all these books about creativity. I should be able to, like, come in here and, like, teach these kids something. I was just so funny because they really didn't need me to teach them very much at all. They didn't need any, like, direct instruction from me. What they needed was something different. Like, they needed me to be around, you know, they needed me to love and care for them, but they didn't really need direct instruction. And so, like, I'd say by the time they were toddlers, you know, they were drawing and making stuff the way I'd always dreamed of drawing and. And making stuff, you know? And so I, like, almost became, like a studio assistant. You know, I was more like the. The helper. You know, I was there to get snacks and, like, and get more paper and, like, clean up messes and, like, stuff like that. And it was such a fun place for me to be. Cause I thought to myself, well, why don't I just apprentice myself to these beginners then? You know, why don't I just get it in the, like, learner seat right with them? And so it was just like this. I kind of made them my teachers for the. When they were, like, really little. And I just kind of knew right away that I was going to learn more or just as much from them as they were going to learn from me. And that's really where the real, like, start of this book happened, is like, how do I start, like, paying attention to these things they're teaching me? Then how do I, like, try them for myself? And then how do I connect the reader with that stuff? Right?
- [06:26]
Jenny Ertz
Like, right, because we all should Be in a situation. I mean, kids start off their lives as very creative. And so if we had the eyes to see it, then you bookend the book by saying, this is a book of art lessons I learned from my creative kids. Well, some of them might think, are you 75 and your kids are in their 40s? You know, like, no, these are little kids that you are learning.
- [06:48]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
Are you.
- [06:48]
Jenny Ertz
You have an entire book of art lessons that you learn from your kids who have not gone to art school themselves, who are just creative being things. And you wrote, they worked the way I dreamed of working, without fear or hesitation, just raw energy, with just wild energy, raw passion, and a lightness of touch. They don't have an inner critic. And then you bookend at the very end. You say, many readers have commented, oh, you know, your kids must be so lucky to have you as a dad. You say, when it's actually the other way around. Your kids change your life for the better. The world is better with them in it. And so this is a book about, I think, bringing back that childhood spark and trying to remember, like, what is it like to do things, just to do them and for the thrill of it and. And to love the materials and to love what you create and. And not have to worry. So let's talk about who becomes an artist. Because you. You have this sense that you already are an artist. You're born an artist.
- [07:49]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I do, actually. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, all children are wired the way that artists and scientists are, too. I don't think there's that. I actually think that people look at the sciences and the arts is, like, these different things. And I actually think that artists and scientists are doing the same thing. They're investigating the world. They're just using different tools to do it. But I think, like, children are wired like artists and scientists. They're curious about the world. They want to know how it works. They want to test everything. They want to, like, taste everything. They want to, like, get in there and really figure out what it's like. And they don't know that much yet. And this is the thing that I think people think, if I just keep knowing, if I just learn more things, I keep filling my big brain box with more stuff, I'll be better at this stuff, where in a lot of ways, it's not knowing. It's kind of not knowing what you're doing that makes kids really powerful. You know, kids don't know what is impossible yet. You know, the possible is still possible. I think there's Probably a story that a lot of people have heard that I love, that I put in the book. It's by Ken Robinson. A lot of people have probably seen his TED Talk where he tells a story, girls in a, in a classroom. And she's drawing and this teacher comes up to her and she says, well, what are you drawing? And the girl says, I'm drawing a picture of God. And the, and the teacher says, well, how are you doing that? Nobody knows what God looks like. And the little girl says, well, they will in a minute.
- [09:19]
Jenny Ertz
I had not heard that story and
- [09:20]
Austin Kleon
I loved it, you know, but that's really, that's it right there. Like, if you can keep that. I, you know, the minute that Ken Robinson told that story and I heard it, I thought that's really it. You know, it's that, that kind of sense of, well, of course I'm drawing a picture of God, you know, like, well, they will in a minute. You know, it's that, that sense of just like there. No one can tell us what we can't do. Right. We don't think about what we can't do until someone tells us. Right. And that is really, that, that's really like one of the heart, one of the, one of the things when we lose our creative work. It's like someone either tells us we can't do things or we start internally saying, wait, I'm not as good as the other people at things. Maybe I shouldn't do this anymore. You know, so.
- [10:09]
Jenny Ertz
Absolutely. And then here's what you say. The people who don't stop become artists or remain artists.
- [10:15]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [10:15]
Jenny Ertz
You know, if you, if you don't stop because you say there's no winning. There's no winning in the creative life. You just keep having open mindedness and innocence. Maybe a little naivety. Naivety. I don't even know how you say that word a little bit. You know, that you know what God looks like and no one else does that type of thing. So it's just such a inspiring book and a reminder. It's a reminder of how wonderful kids are and how there are so many elements of childhood that we should try and hold on to. You talk about being an amateur. I just really wanted to talk about this. Throwing out the instructions.
- [10:48]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [10:49]
Jenny Ertz
Because we really live in a time is, you know, even on social media. I mean, you see it all the time. There are instructions on how to make your face more chiseled.
- [10:56]
Austin Kleon
Right. Like there's, there's instructions for everything. You know, so many.
- [11:01]
Jenny Ertz
How to grow your social Media account. And you're so drawn into it, you're like, yes, I need. I need it. I need the instructions.
- [11:07]
Austin Kleon
Let me take notes.
- [11:08]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I'm saving all these things. They're all instructional. Yeah, you said, who can have any fun with a bunch of instructions in your head?
- [11:17]
Austin Kleon
I mean, it's just like being the kid at the playground with the helicopter parent. Like, everyone's like, oh, oh, no, don't do that. Like, oh, don't jump on that. Like, oh, don't do that. You know, like. Like, it's very much like that. If you. The more instruction you kind of get, those instructions kind of become these kind of, like, guardrails, and they can kind of, like, keep us from doing the stuff that we, like, really want to do. There was a. There was a playground. I think it's on Governor's Island. Is it, like, somewhere in New York City? And somebody posted this sign, and it said, your children are fine without advice or suggestions. And I saw this sign, and I thought to myself, I need that in my studio. Like, I need that in my studio, because I just. That. That is really, like, what would it be? Because everyone, like, goes. Everyone thinks they need more advice and they need more success. Oh, I want to be a great artist. Like, I need more instruction. I need more teaching. It's like, you need to make more things, right? You need to go in your studio and play and make stuff. And so it was again, that. That twist where it's like, gosh, all this stuff for kids and all these things we do with. For kids. Like, if. If every artist I've met has, like, every great artist I've ever met has this kind of inner kid that they can access, it's still, like, alive in them. And so I just felt like, if. If there are these things that work with little kids that we know work really well, what if we could jumpstart, like, our inner kid? Like, what if we could use those things to jumpstart our own inner kid? And that was really, like, when I was like, okay, okay, maybe this is what this is, you know, Because I think that the really hard thing for creative people is, like, when you just lose that love and feeling, right? You get. You get started doing something, and you, like, you go down the path, and it's just, like, you just lose touch with, like, what you started out, the passion and the fire and everything that you started out with. And I think what's interesting to me is that doesn't matter whether you've had the career you've wanted or not. Like you could be totally unsuccessful and have that feeling, but you could also be super, super successful and have that very feeling. Like you could be making millions of dollars a year and like feel like a pretty, like, successful person and, and lose touch with that thing that like got you there in the first place. So we all, like, if you do things long enough, it's very easy to get to that kind of blown out point, which is, you know what? I think kids, kids aren't there yet because they haven't been here that long. Right. They haven't hit that point. And that's what makes being around them like, so infectious and energetic.
- [14:10]
Jenny Ertz
Right. I mean, one of the things that changes very quickly is they do start getting a lot of instruction.
- [14:15]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
It starts at age 5.
- [14:17]
Jenny Ertz
It may start younger depending on the preschool situation. So they get this, all this instruction and now kindergarten is full day. And so you just kind of get this sense, I need the instructions. You had a sentence in here that said, if only we could just find the right instructions, we think we really could know how to live. If only I could find them. But you have this quote from D.H. lawrence who says, here, you know what,
- [14:40]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
Let me tell you how you educate a child.
- [14:42]
Jenny Ertz
It's not about instructions. It's actually the opposite. He says, here is the first rule, leave them alone. Here's the second rule, you know, leave them alone. Here's the third rule, leave them alone. That this is the beginning. So can you talk then about. I guess it's a misconception that there are instructions. And I think the misconception comes from the fact that we have a whole childhood and often a college experience where we are, we do have these instructions doled out. But some creative people, and you gave the example of Paul McCartney who would say, I don't even know how it happens.
- [15:18]
Austin Kleon
Yes. So I think there's a couple of things going on. I have to mention that when my kids were really little, before they went to school, I was reading a lot of great books on homeschooling and education and unschooling in particular. And one person who really inspired me was this guy named John Holt. And you know, for people. Listen, I'm guessing that a lot of your listeners know about John Holt, but really quickly I'll say John Holt, the thing I've really come to admire about him is this newsletter that he had called Growing Without Schooling. And you can get old issues of this. And I love reading this newsletter because everyone's like, oh, newsletter so new. Everybody's Got a newsletter now? No, actually, they're very old and it's fun to read, like an old school mimeograph newsletter that was, like, sent to people through the mail, you know, but before blogs and before the Internet and stuff, Growing Without Schooling was this publication that John Holt wrote and edited where they kind of came up with all these different, you know, things that people who were homeschooling their kids at the time were dealing with. So there was like, really funny stuff, like, what should we do with the vcr? You know, like, it's like, because you, you always think like, oh, my God, what are we going to do with these screens? Like technology. You're like, no one's ever dealt with this before. And then you, you know, you read this, like, newsletter from the 80s where they're like, talking about BCRs and stuff. But anyway, John Holt wrote this book, the first book of his that I read that really inspired me was this book called How Children Learn. And something that John Holt writes a lot about is that instruction can be very, very powerful. And it's very, very important. It needs to be asked for. Instruction is best when it is asked for. And so if a kid comes to you and says, I want to know this thing, can you help me? Can you help me figure out how to do it? Then it's go time. But until then, the learn. You know, the thing I just loved about Holt was that he was. He put everything on the learner. Every. The most important thing is about the learner and the learner being self directed. If you think about how school is, I mean, school is the complete opposite. It's like, hey, kids, sit down. Here's all the stuff you need to know. Right? It's just like the complete opposite of that. And now I'm someone who does send my kids to school because there's just no way in our household we could have ever actually made it work when they were little.
- [17:48]
Jenny Ertz
But you can take those principles with the time that you do have when they're home.
- [17:53]
Austin Kleon
Exactly.
- [17:54]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
Talk about.
- [17:55]
Austin Kleon
We have this kind of like, I'm a big fan of Nassim Taleb, who talks about barbell strategies, where it's like you do two kind of things that are in opposition to each other. Like, kind of like a barbell. Like, you have weight on this side and weight on this side. So we send our kids to school, but then at home we're very unschooled. We're very much about, like, hey, we have certain boundaries and borders and we have strict bedtimes and stuff like that. But then it's up to you what you do with your time, you know, when you're here. And so that was like, the strategy we figured out, you know, for ourselves. But Holt was really inspiring to me because he, he just kind of turned it around and said, what if we, you know, the child is the most important. It's not about, like, the teacher and what we're trying to, like, convey to the child. It's how the child comes alive to the world. And I just. There was something about that that I just felt like, translated so well to artists because the artist is really on and the creative person is really on their own individual journey where they're trying to figure out what it is that they're going to make and what it is that they're going to do.
- [19:04]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
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- [22:38]
Austin Kleon
And the thing I found out about really interesting artists and stuff is they're almost always autodidacts. At a certain point they take charge of their education, but they're also like, I think something that makes creative people really interesting is what they don't know, like, what they haven't learned or like the weird order of things. This is kind of like literally and hoity toity, but like Herman Melville, who wrote Moby Dick, which is like one of the greatest American books, books ever. He didn't read Shakespeare till he was 30. And so like, you know, we think of Shakespeare now, it's like, oh, you have to read that in high school or whatever. Here's a guy who like, didn't read Shakespeare until he was 30. So he's working on this pretty, like, you know, run in the mill, like, adventure novel about a whale. And it was pretty good. But then he like, read Shakespeare and he was like, whoa, this. There's like a whole other way of. This is like, this is like blowing my mind. So he goes back and he kind of like rewrites Moby Dick like to be this other thing, which is the book that we like, kind of know. That's just like one story that I really like that's not in the book. But like, I'm very curious about, like, a lot of the creative people I know. They kind of have like a weird. They have weird holes in their knowledge, you know, because when you really are going to know something, then you don't know something else, right? Like, because the choice to know something is also the choice to not know something else. I think scientists are like this too. It's like super brainy scientists. Like, I forget which was it, you know, sometimes I forget what it was. I think Oliver Sacks, who wrote all those great books about neurology and, and difference and stuff. Like, he didn't know who the President was. You know, if you asked him like, who, who's the President right now? You're like, I don't know, you know, so there's like this idea of, of. Of knowing and not knowing and ignorance and knowledge. This sense that like, we're all kind of on our own. Just this idea of putting yourself and what you want to know about at the center of things. Children are so good at that, you know, they're so good at that because they don't. They don't care. Like my kids, you know, I try to play them music and they would be so. They're like, I don't like that. And I'd be like, but this is the Beatles. They're a famous. I don't like that. Turn that off. You know, and then I'd play them some weird electronic band that like no one's ever heard of. And they'd be like, I like this, you got more of this, like, keep it coming, you know, so they're like this idea of before the world tells us what we need to know and the world tells us what it is that we're supposed to like. We're actually very in touch with what is resonating with us. But we lose that over time because you spend so much time being told constantly what you should like, here's a TV you should watch this month. Here are the movies you should go see. Here's the books you should read. New York Times says you need to read this book that, you know, you get to a point where you don't even really know what it is that you even like anymore.
- [25:42]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
More you wrote it like this.
- [25:45]
Jenny Ertz
We spend time in these feeds like
- [25:47]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
our social media feeds or the, the
- [25:49]
Jenny Ertz
bestseller list feed like pigs at a
- [25:51]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
trough to discover the stuff you like.
- [25:53]
Jenny Ertz
You can't just feed.
- [25:54]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
You have to search. Your search needs to be self directed.
- [25:57]
Jenny Ertz
You can't just have things pushed at you. And so then the, the information piece, it's like you're always searching outside of yourself. Who's going to give me the information I need? Who's going to give me the instruction? And you say, resist that as much as possible. Try to figure things out on your own. Our world is awash in information. You write. What it's lacking is wonder. I just had my husband bring these in for me.
- [26:17]
Austin Kleon
Look.
- [26:17]
Jenny Ertz
Okay.
- [26:18]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. And those are great. The growing so fun during like the really early days of the COVID pandemic. Like, I would read one of those every day and then I would just like pick something out. It was just so I. Really something. If you're listening to this right now, everyone concentrates on stuff that's like brand new and cutting edge all the time. It is so awesome to read something. I mean, I hate to say this as an elder millennial, but I'm like, if you read something from the 80s, it's like 40 years old now, right? Like, just like me. And so it's like, you know, going back just that far, like the 1980s doesn't seem that far, but like just going back that far and reading about people who are trying to do what you're trying to do, it just puts this interesting distance and it gives you this perspective that I think is the reason why reading old books is so great. Because it. You're just far enough away from the material that you can really make it your own and you can really think about it and you're not like, so Terribly invested. And there's not as much like, there's a kind of panic that happens when we're like doom scrolling. It's like, oh my God, these people know what we're supposed to be doing right now. Even though they're not any older than I am and they haven't been here any longer than me. Like, I got to listen to that, you know, all this stuff, you know, so there's something about like reading old stuff that just like gives you the perspective and the distance that I feel like allows you to kind of access your own imagination, your own thoughts. And those growing without schoolings, I just think they're great. I love those, they're so good.
- [27:56]
Jenny Ertz
I love the very end of this brand new book which is out now. I said this before, but these are phenomenal books for graduates and it is graduate season. All of your books give them as a stack because they help you to stay in that creative space. And I, I think, you know, they just, they're motivating to keep going and to not quit. I mean, that's one of them is even called back, keep going. So, you know, you're motivated to not quit and to prize, to prize the things that you are obsessed about. And what a fun life to be obsessed about different things. But at the very back you had this. Books are made out of books. Venn diagram.
- [28:31]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [28:33]
Jenny Ertz
Which I loved. So you're like, you know, these are some of my inspirations. And, and you're kind of like saying, okay, these are books about creativity and art. These are books about kids and parenting. These are books about neurodiversity, These are books about unschooling. And they all kind of weave together in different ways with this Venn diagram. So you had David Epstein in there, who I just interviewed recently. He, he wrote a book called Range, but then he had a new one come out recently called Constraints.
- [28:57]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
Really good.
- [28:57]
Jenny Ertz
And then you had the works of John Holt. And I tell people the only reason I have a podcast or any type of platform is because of John Holt. Yeah, he had written this sentence that said, I mean, it's like one paragraph of one book where he said something along the lines of, kids need to see the adult work. They need to see the adult work, the adult world more. They need to see a project from start to finish. They're so siphoned off from it. And so then I thought, well, how am I going to be able to show them? How can I gradually and increasingly give them exposure to the adult world? And it was like, well, it's only through my own stuff. It's only through me starting this or speaking at this event or. Or whatever. And he has another quote that says, living is learning. And when kids are living fully and happy, happily and energetically, they are learning a lot, even if we don't know what it is.
- [29:49]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I just. The way he talked about there's one of my favorite lines too, of his is trust children. Like, we're a culture that just doesn't trust children. We pay a lot of lip service to children, and we actually use children as a way to police people and to restrict people, you know? Oh, you have to think about the children. Like, the book banning stuff is all about that. We can keep people, we can control people by. By using children as an example of why we should limit people's, like, exploration and stuff like that. So we use children, like, as a way to get what we want in life, but we don't actually trust children that often. Like, what does it really look like to trust a little person? That they're alive to the world and that they're coming alive to the world in a way that's natural to them. And that was, like, something that really blew my mind, because what Holt said is, he said, in order for us to trust children, we needed to be trusted at a certain part in our lives. And I remember reading that and thinking, oh, my God, like, again, I mean,
- [30:58]
Jenny Ertz
all of childhood is basically the message that you are not trusted, which is why as adults, we have to fill all of your time.
- [31:07]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. So I feel like, you know, part of. If you're going to be a truly unleashed, creative person, you're going to have to figure out that trust, how to trust this inner kid and what they want to do. I mean, and it's interesting because that idea of trusting yourself. And children have a sense of authority, too. Like, young kids, they have this sense of, like, well, why shouldn't I paint a picture? Like, why? Well, I could do that, you know, like, if you tell a kid to paint a picture, they're like, yeah, sure. Okay, you got the paint. Like, let's do it, you know, or let's put on a play. Or, like, let's build a house. Okay, great. You know, like, and then it's interesting because, like, later in life, people have to be told to take that authority that kids take for themselves. For themselves. There's a great book by this guy named Vernon Klinkenborg. It's called Several Short.
- [31:58]
Jenny Ertz
That's a great name.
- [31:59]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, right? Several Short sentences on writing it's one of my favorite books about writing. But he says, who will give you the authority to trust that what you notice is important? It will have to be you. And again, I'm thinking to myself, kids take that authority for themselves. Immediately go, look at that tree, look at that bug. Whoa, look at that grass. Right? Like they're in that all the time. Especially young children. Like preschool year. When I'm talking about children in this conversation, I'm mostly talking about preschoolers because I think 4 year olds are magical. Those, that's the tapped in time. To me it's like a four year old. That's the role. That's when you want to get them and really pay attention because they're just, they're kind of pre language in a weird sense. But they're also like, they kind of can use language, but they aren't, they don't know a lot yet. And like, you know, so that's really the magic time. But this sense of inner authority that kids have, that's the other thing I wanted for myself. I was like, God, how can I have the confidence, you know, that my kids have? And they don't have anyone telling them no is the other thing, right? Like they don't, they have, they have people telling them to brush their teeth and go to bed and like eat your dinner and that kind of thing. Right? But they don't have like a dad being like, well, you know, you're not probably going to be an artist. You know, they're like, well, you know, you probably aren't going to be a great, you know, any of that stuff.
- [33:28]
Jenny Ertz
You know, be sure, I mean, they'll bring you a picture of yourself. You're all snaggletooth. You know, my hair's going every which way.
- [33:35]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, this is great.
- [33:36]
Jenny Ertz
Thank you. Yeah, I love this picture that you drew of me. No one at those young ages is telling them this is not art. And you know, there is no critic at that point. I wonder if it goes in line with one of the things that you said. We've talked about this in the past.
- [33:52]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
I love how you talk about how
- [33:54]
Jenny Ertz
you study who influenced the people that you love.
- [33:57]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
So like you brought up the Beatles.
- [33:59]
Jenny Ertz
If you love the Beatles, who were the influences to the Beatles and kind of going down those different rabbit holes. So you have read an extensive amount throughout your life. You said a long time ago that you're a professional reader. Yeah, I loved that you said that. You used to be a librarian. You even talk about parenting like an, like a librarian. There's information about that in this brand new book which is called Don't Call it Art. So you've read the extensive histories of so many people and one of the things that you wrote was. I am struck over and over by how many artists can trace their creative lives back to childhood boredom. And I almost wondered if part of the key there is. Because when there is childhood boredom, there's no instruction.
- [34:41]
Austin Kleon
You absolutely there's there. Boredom usually comes from a. From a void. Right? It's like that's, it's just. There's emptiness, there's space. And I think what's really interesting about boredom is that if you can sit for it with it long enough, if there's no one rushing in and saying, we gotta get to karate class or, you know, or, you know, we gotta, you know, we're gonna go to church, whatever it is. If you sit there and you have to be bored for a while, it creates this void of space that you can't stand. You want to fill it with something, right? But the void has to exist first. And I'm someone who was spectacularly bored when I was a kid. I was kind of like a. I'm my mom's only child. Like, I have, I have, I have a. I have half siblings and step siblings who are eight years separated from me. But yeah, I'm like, kind of grew up, like an only kid, grew up in the middle of a cornfield just looking for, you know, just. And so much of my young life doing the creative work that I do was just to fill that void of boredom, of not having a bunch of other people around. And I feel like now all of that time, I really, I just, I really, really value all of that so much. And that's what's hard with my kids right now. And I think we're all feeling this pinch because we all feel this as adults is. It's like there's no time to be. There's no even reason to be bored. If we want to be entertained and engaged, we could do that 24, 7 now, you know, and boredom. For a parent, letting your kids be bored means they're going to get into trouble, right? Trouble, right. Like they're going to stir things up. Like if they're bored, well, they might get at something, you know? And that was something else in the book that I really wanted to tap into is that I felt like my kids were the most creative when they were supposed to be doing something else. So. So I felt I. There was like a time there was like this Very. I remember there was this, like, very specific moment in time where I was like, I spend all day telling people, start now. Start drawing. Start writing. You know, start. Start going out and list. Making music, make a racket, do your thing or whatever. And then I, like, spent the rest of my night being like, stop drawing. Stop reading. Brush your teeth, Go to bed. You know, like, just. Just this thing. But it was like always. It's like always before they need to go to school or before they need to go to bed, or like, whenever it was. That's when my kids wanted to have these, like, really, like, philosophical conversations and they wanted to, like, that's when they were drawing the really beautiful pictures that I didn't want to interrupt. You know, it's like when we're supposed to be doing something else. And I love. During the pandemic. My favorite stories in the pandemic were how kids were figuring out how to hack their, like, distance learning stuff. So it's like, I love these stories. Like, these kids figured out, oh, well, we're allowed to have Google Docs on our Chromebooks, so we could turn this into a chat room with each other. Or, like, you know, with Zoom, they figured out how to make, like, a video, like a loop. They're like, screen on Zoom, so they could, like, go do something else while the teacher was like, this is the stuff that was, like, brilliant. Yeah. This is the kind of creative stuff that I just thought, oh, my gosh. And, you know, kids are like. They're so activated by, like, being a little naughty, taking back, like, being irreverent. Like, I really feel like kids are so good. Like, when they love something, they're like, we should do our own version of this, you know? So, like, my kids would be like. They'd be like. They get really into Super Mario Brothers or something, and they'd be like, we should make Super Cleon Bros. Let's make our own video game. You know, they just like, immediately went from that kind of like, I love this thing, but we'll. We could do that too. Why don't we make our own? You know, that leap eventually? And it's so funny because I'm like, that's exactly what I write about. And steal. Like, an artist is like, yes, you get super inspired by stuff. And then you're like, I'm gonna make my own version of this. Yeah, right. The kids did it without me telling them to, you know, because no one was telling them. Well, you can't really copy people. Like, you need to come up with your own idea, you know, that kind of stuff. You know, it's just like so fun to watch them do that.
- [39:11]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
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- [43:12]
Austin Kleon
but that was the other thing I was like, we all go in with like, you know, I go into the studio and I'm like oh I should do this, I should email this person, I should do that. And it's like what should you not do? Why don't you do that for 20 minutes when you come into the studio what, what would, like, what do you feel like would be a naughty thing for you to do or would just like be a waste of time? Or if people saw you do it, it would be like, oh, he does that in the studio. Because that's like, that's the play. Right. Because when you do those things, then it's like you get. That little kid comes out to play. Right. That kid's like, oh, what are you doing? You getting into trouble? Like, yes, I am. You want to join me? It's like, yeah, let's get into trouble. Right? But that's like the kind of. That's the stuff I wanted.
- [43:55]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. Yes, yes. And that's what comes out. I think if kids have time and they have good inputs. That's another thing that you talk about in the book is you talk about inputs. Our kids have done similar things. Like they, they made a whole. Talking about lockdown. They made this whole series of trick shot videos, you know, because that's what Dude Perfect does, called lock. They were called the lockdown kids. I think they have like scrubbed it from the intern.
- [44:18]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Jenny Ertz
Because at the time our daughter, she, you know, we really like Bear Grylls. He's this adventure guy. So she made a whole series called Bear Girls. And I was like, that's great. I'm like, that's so clever and creative. So the inputs matter too. And that's one of the things that you talk about in the book. The book is out now. Go grab a copy. Don't call it art. 10 ways to create Like a Kid Again, you say kids need to be exposed to lots of good stuff. And we're, I mean we're talking about. I'm talking about YouTube, dude, perfect. You're talking about Super Mario Brothers. So, I mean, just a wide, vast exposure. It can include those things. But you say, even for yourself, when you have problems with your output, it's often time to work on your input. So you have this vast amount of things that you're going to do. Reading. But from reading to talking to people, taking them out to lunch. There was a quote in here that says, nobody manages your input, nobody cares about your input, nobody rewards you for it. So you have to be zealous in maintaining high quality inputs into your life.
- [45:22]
Austin Kleon
That's a writer named Ted Joya who writes about music and he has a substack now. And yeah, Ted wrote that piece about. He does something like he maybe writes for like two hours a day and then he spends the rest of the day like reading and like listening to Music. And I remember being, being a young person and being shocked when I read Stephen King's writing book where he says, you know, I write for like three hours in the morning and then the rest of the afternoon I read. And I just thought, oh my gosh, that's the wor. Like, these are professional people and they spend so much time taking things in. Like, taking things in is part of the job. And so for me, that was like a real eye opener. And what TED Talk says about that, you have to manage input. No one's ever going to see that stuff. Like your, your boss doesn't care, like your parents don't care or whatever, you know, whoever the authority figure is or whoever judges you for your work in your life or your listeners or whatever, they don't care what the input is. They are only worried about the output. But you're the one that has to worry about the input. And that was like just a, you know, real, like, Right.
- [46:33]
Jenny Ertz
Like you're not, you're not going to get a book contract by going in saying, I've read 200 books right now.
- [46:40]
Austin Kleon
What's interesting, I think as a creative person online is that you can share your inputs. This is what my book show your work is about. Like, you can share what you're reading. Like my hustle that you mentioned, I'm a professional reader or how I think of myself as a professional reader. My hustle is every Friday I put out this newsletter that has all this inputs, all the stuff I've taken in, like all the books and the movies and music and stuff. And then I do that and people follow that because you're like, gosh, Austin's always. There's always like one thing that I find most of it's weird crap I'm not going to watch or listen to. But like, there's always like one thing that I like in there. And then when I have my own thing that I want you to pay attention to, I put it in the newsletter, right? So this idea that no one cares about your inputs, in some ways you can play with that and, and bring your inputs up, but at the end of the day you have to. There is this crush, I think sometimes to feel like we're always being productive. Like when I come in the studio here, which is supposed to be my happy place, like a lot of the time I think, like, I should be working, I should be working, I should be working. But like, if there's a book that I'm called to, that's the work too. It just doesn't look like work. Right. And so some of the things that creative people have to get used to is you got to get used to people not knowing whether you're screwing around, playing or working. Because a lot of what you're doing is not going to look like work to other people. You know, there's even, there's a film director named Paul Thomas Anderson who just won the Oscar for One Battle after Another on the Last Run, Last Oscars. So he's an Oscar winning director, well thought of in this field. And he was talking to Terry Gross one time and he said, you know, reading a novel at 10am Even though it's my job, like I adapt novels into film, he's like, it still feels really naughty. It feels like I shouldn't be doing this, you know?
- [48:39]
Jenny Ertz
Right.
- [48:40]
Austin Kleon
Like I, like, I feel bad about it and I'm like, good. It should feel like some of the stuff when we're really being creative, it should feel a little naughty. It should feel like, oh man, well, oh gosh, if the banker saw me doing this, you know, he'd probably roll it, you know, be horrified, you know, that kind of thing. It's like we should feel a little bit just like a kid who's getting away with something, you know?
- [49:03]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah.
- [49:04]
Austin Kleon
Like that's when you know, you're like, really?
- [49:06]
Jenny Ertz
Yeah. Like a kid who's staying up late under the covers, you know, reading the book that flashlight.
- [49:11]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [49:11]
Jenny Ertz
And you talk about with the kids, you say, and you brought this up at the very beginning. We're so intentional about feeding our kids, you know, these nourishing ideas and concepts and playing. And at least we're trying to, trying to get outside, trying to limit screen time, trying to, you know, give them space for boredom and to figure out what they love. You say human, but we need human and intellectual nourishment at every stage of development, which includes adults. We take what we feed our kids seriously, but somehow we forget that we need to feed ourselves. So one of the big things in here, if you are, you know, trying to create like a kid again, is to think about what inputs are coming. I interviewed this woman, her name is escaping me, but she, she wrote a book called who's Raising the Kids? Her name is Dr. Susan Lynn. She wrote a book called who's Raising the Kids? Big business, big tech, you know, talking about that type of thing. And she has books about creativity. And she is, maybe, I, I don't know how old she is, I'm not gonna guess, but she talked about when she was growing Up. She would watch Peter Pan once a year. Yeah, it would come out once a year and she'd watch it on tv and then the whole rest of the year they would play that and they would kind of fill in the gaps, you know, because you don't exactly remember what they had. But. But it just feeds the, the, the imagination and it's something that we should be doing as adults to. What feeds your imagination?
- [50:33]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
I would love if you talk about
- [50:34]
Jenny Ertz
the fact that you have no goals because huge goals. I had. I had this experience Austin years back actually was in 2020.
- [50:44]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
Right.
- [50:44]
Jenny Ertz
2019. 2020, where I got asked to write a book, which is odd. That actually normally doesn't happen. And I didn't know that. I didn't know anything about publishing. But this company reached out and they asked if I could write like a kids activity book for being outside. I was like, okay, well, it seems like this opportunity fell in my lap. I should probably take it. It ended up getting canceled because of COVID but that's a different story. After I said I would write the book, then I had to interview. I was like, this is bizarre. What kind of world is this? So I'm in the interview with this, you know, creative person, the globals, whatever. I hadn' job in so long. I'm just a stay at home mom, you know, with like spit up on my shirt. You know, it's like six people in this meeting and they said to me, what is your goal in five years? And I was like, I have no idea. I haven't thought about it. So I loved reading this. In your book, you say I am a person who does not really know what I want to do or who I want to be. This has been the case for many years. I don't have any huge goals or grand vision for my life. I just try to do the work in front of me. So like, you talk about kind of being naughty and that is definitely a. A sentiment that I think a lot of people would be shocked to hear. Yeah, you've been wildly successful. Why you've sold millions of books.
- [52:03]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I mean, I've been. I mean I've been very lucky. But I'm kind of like, you know, I would mention that I've. I mentioned I grew up in a cornfield. And I think I have in my. My grandfather was a farmer. I think I have like a real farmer gene, you know, where I'm content to kind of plant my seeds and show up every day and kind of like make sure that there's work being Done. And then I kind of, like, just see what grows out of that, that constant, like, work. And so I think what I have instead of goals is I have all these processes, right? Like, I have all these things in my life where I know I'm going to do them every day or every week or whatever, and then those start. I kind of see what's happening and what's kind of forming, and then projects kind of come, like, out of that, if that makes sense. So for people who don't know my work really well, like, something I do every day is I write my diary. Like, that's a very important thing. I sit down every day and I write in it. And I kind of think about what I'm interested in and whatever. And then I have an art practice in here. So I'll make, you know, I'll make blackout poems. I'll make collages. I'll make, you know, sometimes I print and do all kinds of visual stuff. But then every week, every Tuesday, I have a newsletter that goes out to my paid folks. And that's more of like. That's like, kind of more like a really big, long, fancy blog post, essay thing, right? So, like, every Tuesday, I have to have something worth saying to my audience that generates work, right? Like, that is the thing. And then every Friday, I have to do my other newsletter. And there's something about that repetitive just having that thing that just goes and goes and goes. I know when a book is ready because the stuff shows up. You know, I'm writing about the same thing over and over again. You know, I was writing so much about my kids is like, okay, there's obviously a book here, but, like, that's kind of what. That's the way I do things is I. I have things I love to do. Like. Like verbs, right? Like, I love to draw, I love to write. I love to, you know, post and whatever, but I don't have, like, a bunch of nouns I'm after all the time, if that makes sense. Like, I don't. Like, I'm not. I'm more interested in the verbs of life than the nouns. And. And I kind of have this faith in the process that things will, like, come out of it, you know? Now I'm sure my agent wishes I had more goals, like owning a boat or a big, gross mansion somewhere. But, like, you know, maybe he could crack the whip more and get me to write more books. But no, I really. I don't have a bunch of large holes. I mean, like, obviously I'd like to Stay alive. I'd like my kids to thrive, you know, that kind of thing. But I don't really have any grand career goals because the people I've studied, they just didn't really have that. You know, like artists just like they, they follow their nose and they try to invest in what they're invested, like what they're, what they're into right now. And they have the courage and the faith that if they put their efforts. Creative people know that like if they dedicate themselves to the thing they're truly, truly interested and passionate about right now, that usually something good comes out of it. You know, and even if failure comes out of it, you just learn enough for the next thing that you're going to do. But I'm also kind of a weirdo. I just don't have a lot of goals.
- [55:38]
Jenny Ertz
That's, I mean, that's. No, it speaks to me. It is probably like the biggest question mark or one of. I mean, I know it's a big statement of, of my life as a late stage entrepreneur, which is do the dominoes always fall or do the stars at some point always align? You know, I don't know.
- [55:59]
Austin Kleon
I think it doesn't matter if you're like, if you have a process that you love, if you have work that you're doing that, you know, I mean, like, it's not like I'm not, I mean, I like to make money. Like, I like money. Like, I don't mind money. Like, you know, but, but I have those processes I just described. They bring money in, right? Like, like, so they're so, so that
- [56:20]
Jenny Ertz
you don't die in your.
- [56:22]
Austin Kleon
I don't die and my kids can throw. Yeah. So like it's not like, like, but I don't have, like I'm gonna make this much money this year or like I'm gonna do this and that, you know, like, I wanna, you know, like, I don't really think that way.
- [56:34]
Jenny Ertz
I'm gonna have 10 New York Times bestselling.
- [56:36]
Austin Kleon
That's right. Yeah. I don't know. And actually I've learned, I've learned to because I used to be like, I want this book to be a bestseller. I want this to be a New York Times bestseller. Like, I want, you know, whatever. Now I'm like, well, what's something that I could control, right? Because like a lot of creative people, they want things that they can't control and that's very tricky. Like if you want things that you can't really control the outcome of, you're setting Yourself up for heartache. So I try to focus on the things I can control. So, like, this book, I was like, you know, what if I say what I really wanted to say and the book's as beautiful as I could make it, yeah, that's a success. That's. That's really the other. I would love for it to sell a million copies, of course, you know, but, like, the older I get, the more I'm like, what can you control? Like, what can you control? Like, I can't control whether my kids graduate college or whatever, but I can control what kind of dad I am. Right. Like, how I show up with them, you know, like, so it's just like reframing everything as, like, well, what's within my abilities and my control. I guess that's one of the more stoic things about. I'm not a very stoic person, but, like, there are some things that I've really learned from stoicism.
- [57:58]
Jenny Ertz
I mean, it. It's incredible life advice, especially now, because actually you. You kick off this part about talking about, you know, that there actually is
- [58:07]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
a little bit of date.
- [58:08]
Jenny Ertz
There can be some danger in a vision because it might lead to inflexibility or you might bulldoze. You wrote. You might bulldoze through reality with blinders on, you know, in an attempt to get to this goal that you had said. But then you also brought it up in terms of our children, and you say, it's difficult to picture, and I would maybe even potentially say impossible in some ways to picture the kind of future our kids will grow up in. And so when a world is changing and you have to flex with it, this seems to be a good way to go, which is to, you know, just follow. Follow your process.
- [58:45]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, let's go back to that inflexibility of visions, because the thing, it's. It's in line with the go. So I'm a big Arnold Schwarzenegger fan. I really do love Arnold Schwarzenegger, but when he's giving advice to people, he's always saying, you got to have a vision. You must. You must visualize your future. And. And like, you got to have a vision so you can make it your reality, you know, And I. The thing about Arnold is that he could picture the things he wanted to be. Like, he wanted to be the best bodybuilder in the world, and then he wanted to be a famous actor, and they wanted to be governor. Those are all things that pre existed in the world. Now it's. It's not that it didn't take Herculean, you know, discipline and whatever to make him those things, but he could picture them the things that we. For the artist, it's like the artist doesn't even know what they are yet or where they're gonna go. Like they don't even know what they're gonna do. If you had talked to me when I was 19, if you described my career, so think about like what you're doing right now, right? If you described that, like, you know, there's so many people I know with careers, like, if you had described what I do now to my 18 year old self and then said, now how are you going to get there? I don't think he would have known. He'd be like, I don't know, how do you do that? You know what I mean? And so it's like, so for me, the other thing is, is that if we can go back to the parenting thing, we have this idea about what it's going to be like to be a parent. And I feel really lucky because I have kids with differences and they are not your typical kids. They're not like our life together is never going to be exactly like that. Kind of like, oh, ride a bike. And you know what I mean? It's not that like, and it's, and it's interesting. There's a, there's a very controversial essay by. I forget who wrote it, but it's about having an autistic kid. And the essay is like, you packed for Hawaii and you land in Helsinki, right? And like when you have a kid with a big difference, it's like you had this thing in your head and it's like if you keep acting like you're in Hawaii when you're in Helsinki, like you're gonna freeze to death, you know, so, but, but there are people in life who, they hold on to that thing. I wanted Hawaii, I wanted to be in Hawaii, but they're in Helsinki, you know what I mean? And so like that happens whether you're a parent or whether you're a creative person. I was supposed to be a best selling novelist and now I'm like a copywriter, even though I make plenty of money. And like I have a band that play in on the weekend, you know, or whatever it is, you know, so it's like for me it's so much about, like, what if you don't worry too much about where you thought you were going to be and you really take a look around and know where you are and then when you can do that. To use that Metaphor of Hawaii vs Helsinki, you start realizing, wait a minute. If you have the right clothes and the right kind of thing, Helsinki is wonderful. There's all this stuff. I've never been to Helsinki, but it's like there's all this stuff we can do and oh, there's this different life that we can access, you know, and there's this different way of being. And that has been the biggest mind blower for me as a parent is it's like, what if you like let go of all that like hallmark gooey stuff that you thought you were going to do as a parent and you really paid attention to what was in front of you, what could you get out of it? And how much richer would your life be? And that's certainly my opinion. You know, it's like I didn't, I didn't when I was 18. It's not like I wanted to like grow up and write self help books, but like, but like now that I'm here, I'm like, there's a kind of book that sits next to the cash register in a gift shop and that book happens to be a form that someone like me. I can be as weird and as wild as I want to be in the book, but it can be in a format that people actually read, you know, and so that's the. But if I had said, well, but I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to have art shows and be at the Venice, be an ally right now, you know, whatever. Like you turn your back away from this life that's actually like really beautiful and you get to do all this work.
- [63:12]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
You want to do it so good.
- [63:14]
Jenny Ertz
It's the farmer gene.
- [63:15]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Ads)
See what grows. You see what grows.
- [63:16]
Jenny Ertz
You plant the things and you see what grows. You had a picture. There's a couple pictures in the book. They're kind of sprinkled throughout. There was one where you were talking about, you don't need a vision. I mean, it's the exact opposite of basically what everybody tells you, what your business plan, all of that. And you've got a kid, you know, at. And they got this chalk drawing and they're just like, it's going everywhere, you know, And I love that, I love that picture. I love the picture where I, I'm gathering that you were at a museum and like the kids are down on the floor.
- [63:43]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [63:43]
Jenny Ertz
Inspecting the exit sign. I loved that one. I mean, it is just a phenomenal. Another one, another phenomenal book. And you grab the series. It is steal like an artist. Show your work. Keep going. And then this brand new book is called don't call it art. 10 ways to create Like a Kid. Again, here's what you said. And I thought actually this was so deep. You talk about that. Basically you kind of have, you know, we become these people that are trying not to look foolish. And you say the fool is optimistic that things will work out. To play the fool wholeheartedly requires not an insignificant amount. I said it wrong. Requires a not insignificant. I'm gonna say again, to play the fool wholeheartedly requires a not insignificant amount of courage. You have to be courageous to do this and also to allow your kids to grow in their creativity as well. Even though it's scary and even though we want to be in control of art, you know, what's gonna be their future. We have to be able to trust children. And you say being a parent is not unlike being an artist. You never get it figured out. You never know for sure what you're doing. What worked last time isn't guaranteed to work this time. This is true for artists. It's for parents and. And for all the great ones. You just. There's no guarantee. And so it is a phenomenal book. Phenomenal. I just. Gosh, I love them so much. And I'm so thankful that Daniel Huffington gave me that first book. Big thanks to Daniel Are huge. Congratulations, Austin. I cannot recommend you so much. Highly. Everybody grab a copy. But grab the whole stack. Give them to the graduates in your life. I mean, these are the types of books that you can flip back to and just find that spark of courage, that spark of inspiration.
- [65:32]
Austin Kleon
I have so much fun talking to you. Thank you for having me on.
- [65:36]
Jenny Ertz
Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. I loved it, and I just. I'm thrilled. Hot pink. Find it Hot pink. Wherever you. Wherever you get your book. Thanks for being here.
- [65:45]
Austin Kleon
Thank you.
- [65:46]
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