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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 816: Trapped Inside Someone Else's Dream | Suzanne Heywood, Wavewalker
00:58:21
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- [00:01]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
This episode is sponsored by Fora Travel. I've always been the person people come to for travel advice, whether it's planning a camping trip in Northern Michigan, figuring out how to travel well with kids across the country, or finding experiences that actually help families connect instead of just filling an itinerary. I genuinely have loved helping people create meaningful adventures. And I know a lot of you listening are probably that person too. The friend who plans the trip, the one who researches the details. The one person people trust to find the hidden gems and make everything run smoothly. I FORA is built for people exactly like that. Fora is a modern travel agency that helps people build their own travel business, no matter what stage of life they're in. You don't need prior experience because Fora gives you the training, technology and support to help you get started. And you're joining a community of people who are building businesses centered around experiences, relationships and helping others travel well. A lot of advisors begin simply by helping people they already know and grow naturally from there. What I also appreciate is that there are no sales quotas or minimums. You can build this at a pace that works for your life and your family. Your next act starts here. Become a for advisor today at foratravel.com 1000hours. That's F O R A travel.com 1000hours and make sure you tell them we sent you for travel.com 1000hours.
- [01:16]
Jenny Eric
Welcome to 1000hours outside podcast. My name is Jenny Eric and the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I had just read the one of the most incredible books I've ever read. Such a page turner. I could hardly believe it was real. The book is called Wave A memoir of Breaking Free. And author Suzanne Haywood who has written several other books and a new one coming out as well. International best selling author Suzanne, welcome. Thanks for joining us.
- [01:43]
Suzanne Haywood
Thank you so much. Delighted to be here.
- [01:46]
Jenny Eric
I was wondering, just to kick it off, you know, this is a memoir of your childhood, of your childhood where your, you know, on this sort of never ending voyage. It is just shocking. You know, I'm a mother. You read the book and you're just shocked. You know, you just keep turning the pages, turning the pages. Is it hard to talk about like you know, we write a book, then you're people want you to go on all these interviews? No, actually.
- [02:10]
Suzanne Haywood
And what was really helpful is having written the book, it enabled me to process what happened when I was a kid. And actually now it's much, much easier to talk about it because I feel like I've got it all kind of much more sorted out in my head than I did for a long time. But I'm a mom as well. I have three kids and I find it just as astonishing, kind of looking back, you know, even more so now I'm a mom myself. I just can't comprehend the decisions that my parents made.
- [02:43]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, astonishing. Shocking. So can you give an overview? This is a story and I loved how you put it at some point in the book it, you talked about being stuck in someone else's dream and I thought, oh gosh, you, you leave with these existential questions of what is the responsibility of a parent? How do you balance your own dreams and vision for your own life once you've had children versus what the kids need? So can you talk about this as seems like a really sort of simple thing relatable in this day and age? Because I think people do sometimes sell everything they own and live in a camper bus or for a year, you know, they'll travel around the United States or they'll do it in another country. You know, they go for a year and they come back. And that's what this was supposed to be. You're a little girl. Yeah. Early elementary school. And your dad has this vision of going on a boat for a year.
- [03:36]
Suzanne Haywood
Exactly.
- [03:37]
Jenny Eric
And then it just turns out to not be that.
- [03:39]
Suzanne Haywood
Exactly. So my father basically said, I want to sail around the world. I want. It's going to take three years to sail around the world and then you're going to come back and we're going to set sail when you're seven. So you'll be back by the time you're 10. Everything will go back to normal. You know, you've got to leave everything behind. So that meant leaving my dog behind, leaving my, you know, my, you know, my treasures, my biggest treasure being my doll's house or my friends. Leaving everything behind to go on my father's big adventure of sailing around the world. And he wanted to sail around the world to follow Captain Cook. My maiden name is Cook. Turns out we're not actually even related. But this was all positioned as a, like a big and noble theme. You know, we were going to recreate Captain Cook's voyage around the world, this big adventure around the world. And yes, I eventually, as I started growing up, I began to realize that I was trapped in his dream. But it wasn't my dream. It was never my dream. I didn't object to going, I, I mean I was a seven year old girl, of course I was going to Go with my dad, you know, of course. But it was always his dream, not mine.
- [04:52]
Jenny Eric
And then along the way you, you know, you voice some things like I'd like to go back or what is the plan? And he's like, I don't know what the plan is and I'm not going to tell you. Or it's. It's almost this real combative lack of empathy, understanding of what life is like as a child. So I, so I have the hardcover here and I'm reading the book. I, I actually can picture where I was at at the kitchen table where it's like, okay, this thing is just like extending and extending and now he wants to go here. And you're like what was Rio part of Captain Cook's original journey? And he was like, well, no, but your mom would really like it there. And it just is extending and then there's issues and then you're stopping here. And I, I remember being at the kitchen table because you, the way that you lay it out in this memoir is so great because each chapter is like age eight, you know, to age, age nine and a half, eight, you know. Right. And you're. Originally it was supposed to be this one sale around the world. So I'm reading through this book and I'm like, gosh, it's like thing after thing and then I set it down and on the very front cover is like someone's blurb that they wrote about it and it says this, a 7 year old girl on a 70 foot yacht for 10 years over 50, 000 miles of sailing. And I was like, wait, it's. She's gonna be on this for so much longer. You don't even really know what to do with it. Like as a parent, if you present something to your child that it's going to be this amount of time and then it ends up being it was your whole entire childhood and then that's not even the whole of it. Then you get left in this one spot. You're supposed to watch your brother. Can we talk about the part where of what are we really responsible for as kids? Because they have you doing. First of all, you have to go, you're in your dad's dream, this is what he wants to do. But then you have a lot of respons abilities. Like he's getting random crew members, they don't really know what they're doing. They've not been on boats before. And so you're having to cook, you're having to make dessert. Your mom's asking you do this, do that. And they say things like this to you. Don't be selfish. Do you have to do what the family needs for once, Stop thinking only about yourself. You're being selfish again. I told your father you would be. I knew you'd be difficult.
- [07:12]
Suzanne Haywood
Exactly.
- [07:12]
Jenny Eric
It's a fine line, like, you know, yeah, kids should help some.
- [07:16]
Suzanne Haywood
But I agree, I. So, so what happened was when we first left and I was a little kid, I was seven, I don't remember doing that many chores on the boat, but we were basically kind of abandoned on the boat because my mother hated sailing, it turned out, so she just retreated to her cabin and my father would sail and me and my younger brother, who was 6, were basically left fending for ourselves. So that's weird, looking at a parent, you know, that is just weird. You know, you just leave these two kids kind of looking after themselves. But then as time went on, they ran completely out of money. We didn't have any money. This is one of these weird things about the story is what it looked like externally and then what it really was. And I suspect sometimes when you see these influences who take their kids out of society and post all these pretty pictures, I often ask myself, what's that actually really like on the other side? You know, it might look pretty. So it looks pretty. There we are on a boat, and after the first few years we were in the South Pacific, it looked very pretty, but the reality was we were incredibly poor, we had no money whatsoever, and as you said, to keep this thing going, which my father just became obsessed with just keeping going, you know, all those promises about coming back had disappeared. He was taking these crew on board and charging them to come on the boat with the idea that they would learn how to sail and go and see whales and dolphins. And my job. And by the way, there was a real gender thing going on. So my job as the girl, but not my brother's job as the boy, was to cook and clean for the crew. And there was an assumption in my parents head that kids were just there to work for the family. You know, we didn't have any sort of autonomy of our own, of any sort, and we were just there to, to do stuff. And increasingly, as the book goes on, I start to try and fight back against this because I want time to try and educate myself to escape. But my parents basically think that all my time is their time. And you're right. You know, I expect my kids to do some chores, but I don't expect them to work eight hours A day cooking and cleaning. And by the way, you're a teenage girl on a boat.
- [09:34]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. To support your.
- [09:36]
Suzanne Haywood
This. Yeah. You're a teenage girl on a boat of. Most of these. These crew are men I'm sharing a cabin with. I mean, it's all. As a parent, you look back on this and think, yeah, that is just not on.
- [09:49]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, it's. It's shocking. It's just shocking. And it's so sad. There was a part in the book where you said, in a year and a half, I will be 10. I thought perhaps Sarah will still remember me. I was like, oh, it's so sad. Like the. Like Sarah, like your friend. And everybody knows that when they're in the. The first grade or the second grade and they got the, you know, their best friend, you're like, I. I'll be back. You know, hopefully you remember me and we'll still be friends. And yet this just kind of keeps going and going and going. So they're having you work on the boat. But then there was also a part where you had stopped in Hawaii and you're at Waimea Falls. I guess this is actually a similar thing where you're like, you're expected to work and your brother's off surfing and you're just a year apart. It's not like he's way younger. You're basically the same age. And they're set up. You're in some sort of a tent and you're having to ask people for donations.
- [10:39]
Suzanne Haywood
That's right, because we'd run out of money. So we got finally to Hawaii, which was kind of the end of the trip, because Captain Cook, on his third voyage, was killed in Hawaii. And even though we weren't really following Captain Cook, which was increasingly frustrating me by this point, because, as I say, the whole mythology of my childhood and now, looking back, by the way, it was not dissimilar to growing up in a cult. It wasn't a religious cult, but it was a cult of, you know, being. Sailing is a freer way of life, and we don't get constrained by the rules of any country. And we can do what we want and, you know, we don't have to pay any taxes. And all of this, by the way, that only applied to my parents. It wasn't free for me. I was trapped on a boat. I couldn't do anything. I often couldn't even leave. I had no passport. I had no money. I had no contact with any of my relatives. I had no friends. So it might have been Free for them, but not for me. But by the time we got to Hawaii, we'd run completely out of money. My dad came up with yet another money making scheme. And the money making scheme was to have an exhibition on Captain Cook at Waimea Falls. By the way, I'm not sure Captain Cook ever went to Waimea Falls on Oahu. He went to Hawaii Island. But anyway, let's not worry about that. My father never worried about kind of technical details like that. And I was left looking after this exhibition. And as you say, my job was to ask people for donations, like kind of begging, you know, please, kind of make donations for us to continue this trip, which is really weird anyway, because the trip was over because we got to Hawaii. So why were we. Anyway. But that was what I had to do. That was the. That was the job. And I remember kind of sitting in that tent. I kind of describe it, and actually I had an amazing encounter with a woman who came into the tent one day, which I describe in the book, who was convinced that I'd been saved in some way. And that was quite amazing. I went to a kind of Sunday school while we were in Hawaii. Kind of inspired by that, I should explain. We'd had a horrific accident in the first year of the voyage, crossing the Indian Ocean, and I'd almost died. We were hit by an enormous wave. I was still a little girl. I was flung against the ceiling of the cabin, against the cabin wall. I fractured my skull, broke my. No. We ended up on this tiny atoll where I was operated on multiple times to try and sort out my kind of fractured skull without any anesthetic. So that was this thing about, well, maybe. So I really almost died. So maybe I'd been saved for some purpose, but I don't know whether I was. But what I did know is I suddenly had somebody who seemed to be interested in me and care about me. And so I got really inspired to go to a Sunday school there and I found some friends. And that was great. But it only lasted for about a couple of months. And then, of course, my father wanted to keep sailing again, and off he
- [13:43]
Jenny Eric
takes you somewhere else. So you're just constantly having these relationships that you build and then you lose them. You build and then you lose them. It is interesting. You talk about being a cult and also, you know, you think about like.
- [13:54]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
Like this.
- [13:54]
Jenny Eric
Our whole premise here is about getting outside, right? So you think, oh, okay, you're on a sailing boat for however many years. That's a lot of time outside. And you're seeing whales and stars, but a lot of it you're spending below deck. And you had this part where you say my world had become a mattress and a sleeping bag slung onto a bunk two feet below deck.
- [14:13]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
I was wet.
- [14:15]
Jenny Eric
Everything around me was wet. This is after this insane storm. Some of my wetness was red. Because you're bleeding. So the. The weather's bad and so you spend a lot of time where you have to be down below deck. So, ok, talk then about the basic needs. There's so many basic needs that are not met. Well, first of all, food. So this is a huge one, right? That's a basic need for a child. This actually goes throughout the whole thing. You say things like, I couldn't remember the last time I'd eaten. You talk about mice on board. You talk about the weevils. There's weevils in the food. And your parent, one of the parents says, don't worry about those, they're only weevils. Just tap it sharply on the table and most of them will fall out and crawl away. The rest will give you useful pull. Protein. So it's food, it's clothing, because you had hardly any clothes, just a couple shirts. I mean, and then you wanted to buy some stuff and your parents, your dad took your babysitting money. I was like, horrified. It's food, it's clothes, it's shelter, because you're, you know, with. After these storms, there's water coming in, everything's wet, all of your Christmas presents, everything's ruined in the water. And then it's education, where your parents were like, well, we'll, we'll do it. You know, we're going to teach you how hard could it be? And then they don't. And then they make it hard for you to even learn. It's everything.
- [15:39]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah, it is. It really is. I mean, all of those basic needs, as you say, kind of food, water. Sometimes we ran out of water quite a few times on the boat. So even more basic than food, shelter, education was a big issue. Being able to have friendships, you really couldn't have friendships. And as you can imagine, as you become a teenager, that becomes a really, really big issue. Being able just to be. But then, but then on top of all that, we've got the kind of dysfunctionality of the family and you've got quite a lot of emotional issues going on. You know, my mother not talking to me for long periods of time and all of that, so. Yes, but. But, you know, for anybody else looking from the outside in it looked fine. And that, I think is one of the reasons why I was so keen to write the book. Because I think often we look at these situations where kids are taken out of society and it looks wonderful, but we often have to ask two or three questions. And by the way, it might be wonderful, but we need to check and make sure because certainly a lot of the basic needs were not met there. And it was all going back to your original point. It was all in the service of this dream. So why were we there? Why were we on this boat with very little food, often no water, often in physical danger, no ability to have friends? It was all to pursue this dream that my father had, which trumped everything else. And this is partly because we're living in the 70s, remember. So in the 70s there was a different attitude to childhood, but not normally so extreme, I have to say. You know, and you're right on the being outside. I mean, I did a lot of being outside, but most of the time I'm trapped on a boat and you can't even run. I mean, I, I never learned really any team sports. I wasn't able to run. It was very hard to get any exercise on the boat because of course all you can do is walk around the deck of the boat. You can't normally swim when you're at sea because it's too dangerous. So you're really just stuck on the boat itself.
- [17:43]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. And when it's stormy, you're not even allowed to come up on the deck. So then you're stuck below deck. I'd forgotten about the water, but I had taken notes about that too. Well, first of all, it was showering. You know, you, you like, you show up at these different ports and you're like, my hair is knotted. But there was a time when you had written about how the main water tank had burst and so everyone got one and a half cups of water a day to drink and a quarter cup for washing and brushing teeth.
- [18:10]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
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- [21:56]
Jenny Eric
so this is not enhancing your parents life in any way financially because it's not providing, you know, the income. It's just this dream of your dad's and yet all these basic needs of yours are not being met. So let's talk about the schooling part. This and also, okay, there was a couple things you would, you would think that you would be really close to
- [22:18]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
your brother who is a year apart
- [22:19]
Jenny Eric
from you, but there's a lot of pitting there against like your mom's taking your brother's side. And then they would say things like like, you're really like I want to learn. I'm bored. You know, I'm, anybody can imagine I'm on this boat, I'm bored. And you're like, but I, I would like to get my education. So you're doing correspondence school. You ask your parents, can I go to boarding school? And they say things like if we could, we can't afford it. But if we could afford it, we would only send John because he's going to have to look after a family one day. So they're sort of pitting against with the sibling like you have to do these chores and he doesn't or he's up and he gets to go swim and you've got to stay and, and try and beg for the money at these different places. So can you Talk about, though, your. You had so much grit and fortitude to be like my parents. It's opposite of, like, almost every other kid. Right, Suzanne? Where like, every other kid is like, I don't want to do school. So the parent is, like, having to cajole them to do it, like, get your homework done, your grades matter. This is complete opposite. Your parents are making it incredibly difficult for you to do your correspondence schoolwork on a boat with no teacher waiting till you get to port to, like, mail things in, and hopefully you get the mail with the comments back. But you did it.
- [23:40]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah, I. At some point, after years had passed, so we left when I was 7, and then we got to Hawaii when I was like 11 or 12. So now we're kind of 13, 14. I realize I'm going to be on this boat forever, you know, if I don't do something, I'm never going to escape because I'm basically free labor on this boat, and it's miserable. I can't have any friends. You know, my relationship with my mother gets increasingly bad as I become a kind of teenager. My brother is treated quite well. I'm not really treated particularly well. I have a good relationship with my father, but my father's obsession is the dream, and so that is all he really kind of cares about. So I've got to get off this boat, and I can't think of any way to do it apart from to educate myself. And so I'm determined to educate myself. Now, what is then weird, as you say, is that my parents, although they would have denied this to anybody, but my parents, particularly my mother, actively tried to disrupt that. And I think there were a couple of reasons. I mean, it's impossible for me to know, of course, because I didn't know what was going on in her head. But, you know, one is very obvious. Obvious, which is if I was studying, I wasn't doing jobs for her.
- [24:55]
Jenny Eric
Yep.
- [24:56]
Suzanne Haywood
And if I wasn't doing jobs for her, she would have to do them. So that's one level of thing that was going on. But there was another level because. And I describe it at one point in the book. There's a scene where. And this happened all the time. But I, you know, I. We. Where she. She starts kind of giving me jobs which are pointless jobs. Go up on deck and see if your father wants a beer. Can you go in the aft cabin, the cabin at the back of the boat and see how many pots of coffee we have? Jars of coffee. We have. Can you. And these are just made up jobs. These are like non jobs that do not have to be done. And she just kept on giving them to me whenever she saw me sitting and trying to study. And I think there might have been two reasons for that. One is she really disliked me. I mean, I think my mother, I didn't know the term at the time, but my mother, I think was deeply narcissistic and she kind of, she didn't like the fact that I wasn't playing that game. So she just didn't like me. And that's a terrible thing to realize as a child that your mother really doesn't like you. And at one point I kind of confront her and say something like, I don't think you love me. And she just doesn't say anything, you know, and I just spiral in my head. And then the second thing is, and she said this to me later on, that she found me intimidating. I was very academic and I wanted to study and my mum was much less so. And I suspect she just found it a bit intimidating maybe. I don't know. I honestly don't know why she wanted to disrupt it, but she did. And as you say, my brother was treated in a very different way. Had a very different, you know, he was very much a kind of golden child on the boat and he was the one who was allowed to sail and you know, he didn't have any kind of great drive to educate himself, but that wasn't really an issue. So we had completely. In this tiny space, my brother and I had completely different experiences and we were treated in very different ways. And I think what happens when that happens is the children go, go apart from each other rather than kind of coming together because you don't have a kind of common problem. We are dealing with two completely different life experiences.
- [27:08]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. And then it makes it harder for the two of you to band together and, you know, maybe come up with a plan or figure out anything together because you're separated even though you're on, you're. It's like you're fundamentally separated even though you're on the same boat together. So you would, you talked about how they, you know, your parents gave away all the writing paper. There was a trade and they gave away all the paper. So now you've got no paper and you're having to like take paper from the back of your dad's logbook when he's not listening and write your lesson lessons in the tiniest writing. And her mom would say, you got to, you know, you got to make all the Meals. Now, don't complain, Sue. We must all do our bit. Your father needs John on deck. And after you finished your job, you'll still have plenty of time to study. And your mom would say, you know, Sue's behaving childless. I mean, it was just thing after thing. But you are so determined. And then you, you know, you're taking your exams and you do so well. And then they say things like, well, John, would you do just as well, too, if you studied that hard? You know, like, you, like. I mean, they undermined it. There was a spot where you could have gone an hour away to, like, get a prize was one hour. They had taken you all around the world, and you could have gone one hour to meet your teachers and pick up a prize in. In Brisbane, and they wouldn't go. But yet you were so determined. You were determined enough that you found a frog to dissect.
- [28:32]
Suzanne Haywood
I did. Caught the frog. Caught the frog. Yeah, I was. There was nothing going to deflect me. And it's very interesting, kind of looking back at your younger self, because of course, it's hard. I mean, in a way, I look back at that little girl and I'm kind of amazed that I was like that. On the other hand, I knew it was a lifeline. And the one thing about the way in which my parents treated me is my education was my thing, you know, this was not theirs. It was never theirs. And in fact, there comes a point in the book where I get my Senior Certificate results and my parents asked to see them. And I. By this point, I'm kind of old, and I go and open them on my own because these are mine. This is nothing to do with you. And there is one kind of great strength, and I think it is worth us kind of thinking about as kind of parents that when you. If you. If you take over your children's education too much. My. My parents obviously were kind of completely the wrong end of the spectrum. So I'm not. So if you look too far the other way and. And it's your thing that you're imposing on on them, I think you might have the opposite effect. So the one kind of positive thing I think was it was mine and nobody was going to disrupt me. And I think I just got so used to being denied everything, even the smallest things. As you say, that kind of one hour, I look back at that and go, why wouldn't you just get in the car, drive for an hour? She's worked so hard for, like a year. Yes. She never met her teachers. I never met my teachers for one hour. You get to meet your teachers. You get a prize because you've done. Really? And they wouldn't, because that would have been one hour away from doing what my dad wanted to do on the boat. And he would have had a list of things in his head of things he wanted to do on the boat. Replace the rope, sort out the engine. And this had no gain for that. This was pointless. This would have wasted an afternoon in his head. So they wouldn't do it. But I wasn't going to let any of that deflect me because I knew it was my escape route.
- [30:40]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. So you're so determined. I want to talk about a couple other shocking things that happened on the boat. And then the story goes off the boat, and it's still shocking. You're like, how could there be more? When I was taking my notes, Suzanne, I think I was, like, at five or six pages of notes, and I'd already read the book, so I'm like, I knew. Oh, my gosh. I haven't even gotten to the part where they just leave the kids to fend for themselves. Whoa. Okay. One of the things. There's two things. One is, you know, we've talked about the basic needs that are not met, which are food, water, shelter, clothing. But emotionally, there is a lot of fear here. You're on a boat, and your dad decides to go the wrong way, or the way, I guess, into the wind because he's following this Captain Cook thing through the Indian Ocean. And when you talk about the storms, like, this is terrifying. I'm terrified just reading it. You can't even imagine being a small child and going up and down these waves, and, like, there's no parent there to hold your hand or tell you it's gonna be okay. And then, like you said, you're bleeding. You know, you're bleeding. You got hurt so bad. There's, like, when you finally find this island and they do these surgeries on you. They're like, she would have had brain damage. And your dad was like, what if we just do nothing? Like, what will happen if we just do nothing? So can you talk about the. That emotional part of just like. Like, okay, here's an example. You're going up and down these waves. I'm gonna read it. A windowless roller coaster. You're unable to predict how high the next peak would be. It feels like you go. You go up, and then you would pause, and then the boat would plunge down. And your dad says something like, if you hit it the wrong way, the boat will flip over. You see, my fear had become physical. A cold lump I carried in my stomach. And they would say, put on your life jackets, we're going too fast. We must be prepared. And you say, I didn't ask. How is a life jacket going to help us survive in an ocean with 50 foot icy waves? And then there's like a word, sinking. There's a hole in the deck, it's full of water. I mean, it is such a page turner. And then there's no food. But can you talk about that part of like having to deal with like. That's like the most fear I feel like almost you could ever have alone.
- [33:06]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah. And it is. I mean, the interesting thing is that as a kid you have no concept of what a family should be like. The only concept you have of a family is the family that you have. And so as a child, I never questioned how my parents behaved. That was just how they were. And they were the parents, as it were. You know, as a child, there is only one set of parents in the world and that set of parents is your parents. And you kind of assume, because you have to assume that they're good parents, because to assume that they're not good parents is almost too big a thought for a child to have. So I assumed they're my parents, they're kind of good parents. But I look back and they were never there. In all those fearful moments, my father had chosen to put us there. He didn't necessarily choose all the storms, although he knew that the chance of storms going the way he was going was extraordinarily high. We then became, were hit and shipwrecked by this enormous wave. It was absolutely petrifying. And, and I describe in the book how I have nightmares for years after this shipwreck because it was so frightening and I was so badly hurt. But when I had all those operations on that island in the middle of the Indian Ocean, neither of my parents were there. I had them on my own with no anesthetic. And I'm seven, eight years old and I just can't comprehend it as an adult. But as a child, what's really interesting, and I try to write the book as I experienced it as a child. I didn't really even question it. That's that, you know, my father said, no, it's more important that I'm out on the boat repairing it. And my mother said, oh, I'm not going to come in because I don't like the sight of blood and therefore I'm on my own. But I look at it as a parent. I go, that is all just weird. And it means I grew up without the sort of comfort, which is just. It is a fundamental need for a child is to feel that you are loved and to feel. I mean, it's always very hard to define what love is, but for me, parental love is putting the needs of the child above your own in many situations. And I can't think of a time in my childhood when either of my parents put my need above theirs. My father, I had a good relationship with and that we would. He would go and sit on deck with me occasionally and, you know, I had a teddy bear and he would make the teddy bear talk. But I can't ever remember him putting his knee. My needs above his. And my mother, certainly not, you know, my mother, I don't really have even those kind of sort of memories I have with my father. And that is just so weird when you're going to put your kids through that sort sort of trauma.
- [36:01]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, yeah. It's their decision. Oh, my gosh. I put like. I was just like shocked, shocked, shocked. I was like writing notes in the book.
- [36:11]
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- [37:39]
Jenny Eric
Amsterdam, I guess that's what it's called. And you. Because the boat is, like, irreparable, and you've gone through this insane storm, and your brother's like, hopefully we find an island. And you're like, I've looked at the charts. I don't think there's any island. Like, you're just freaked out. And then you end up at this place and you're swelling, your eyes swelling. You're. You got this lump. It keeps swelling. And then there happens to be a doctor there, and he says, she's got a broken nose, a fractured skull, and there is blood trapped inside the swelling of her head. And your dad's response was, what if we do nothing? What? Like, oh, my gosh. And then the guy says, your daughter could end up with brain damage. We must cut into the wound. We have no painkiller. During our first two weeks in Isle Amsterdam, I had to keep going back to the hospital to have more operations done on my head of seven operations in order to. You're. I don't. You're just like, whoa, okay, now this is like, a lot less of a thing. But also, I was, like, livid about this too. You hardly have anything. And you talk about the clothing that you have. They don't even have the right clothing for if it's cold. And for you to go up on deck, like, they don't have the right sizes for you See, at what point you talked about everything you own. You say, in. In a bag by my feet were all my possessions. Barn. Most of them are stuffed animals. Barnaby and his wife Bertha. Teddy. Two T shirts, a cotton, maybe skirt or shirt. I might have a type of. There a dress and knickers and three bras in your diaries, one camera and a Spirograph set. It's like 10 things. You own, like, 10 things. So at some point you're at a port and you're babysitting because you're like, I would like to buy a dress or, I would like to buy a swimsuit. There's not even a swimsuit in this list of things. And you didn't even buy the bras. Your. Someone else's mom bought them for you. You asked your mom. She wouldn't get them for you. So that was from someone else that stepped in and got those for you, took you to the mall or whatever. But you're like, okay, you're at port for a while and you're like, I'm going to babysit this kid. Jack. He's kind of a tantrumy kid. I get paid a dollar an hour to babysit this kid. And eventually you make about $100. And you're like, I'm gonna go to the second hand store. There's a couple things you might want to get over the different periods of time, like a pair of jeans, a swimsuit, a dress. And your dad takes your babysitting money.
- [40:06]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah, yeah, that, that. And again, as a parent, that is just so shocking. Is it? So $100. And I was writing all this in my diary at the time. Hundred dollars. There's a hundred hours of babysitting. That's a lot of hours. It'd take me months to do this. And of course my father knew that I was doing it. He knew I was getting paid and. And he suddenly turns to me one day and says, I need to borrow your babysitting money. And I look at him and of course I know I have no choice. And he said, no, you know, it's for the good of the family. It's important that you kind of help us. So I have to give it to him. And then all my dreams, I was completely focused on this pink bathing suit, which I describe as a very kind of, you know, I was like 14. I didn't have a bathing suit. I'd seen one in the shop in the town. We're in Australia at the time. It was beautiful. I remember this bathing suit so well because I used to go and stand outside the store and look at it and it. And actually it was quite special because it had like little raised rose on it. It was really pretty. Maybe it wasn't as pretty as I remember, but I remember it being amazing. And I had enough money to buy it, but I hadn't bought it because I was going to go with my friend anyway. He took the money. And then what's even worse is of course he promises he's going to give it back and he never does. And at one point I confront him about this. I say, can I have it back, dad? I need my money back. Because we were about to set sail again and I wanted to go to a charity store and buy myself a pair of jeans. I found a pair of jeans in the charity store that fit me amazing. I never Had a pair of jeans that actually fit me because of course they'd all been secondhand, the ones that I had. And he just becomes incredibly. Because his way of dealing with being challenged is he just became incredibly angry, you know, how dare you. And if you ever kind of ask me again, you will never get it kind of back. And I don't remember him ever giving it me back. I mean, I don't think he ever gave me the money back. I was so frightened by that encounter with him. I don't think I tried again. And he never gave me that money back. Wow.
- [42:23]
Jenny Eric
And he did say that you wrote in the book, if you. He said, if you ever ask me again, I'm never going to give it back to you. So why would you ask again? You just have to sit and wait. He said this, sue, it's time for you to help the family a little. And you're like, but I was going to buy a swimsuit. And he says, a swimsuit? Don't you think our business is more important than a swimsuit? It's so manipulative. Oh my gosh,
- [42:48]
Suzanne Haywood
of course. I mean, it's impossible. And you're a kid. And how can I argue that the pink swimsuit is more important than what he thinks is important? I can't, because they would see it as utterly superficial. But it was my money. It was the first time I'd ever had any money. Because remember on the boat now I'm an early teenager, you know, I'm like 13, 14. I have no passport because in those days you don't have your own passport. I'm just a line on my parents passport. So at one point I try to run away and I get onshore and I run. Well, I wasn't. I walked because they'd gone out for the day. So I'd been left on my own, so there was no need to run. But I walk as far as I can walk to the end of the kind of peninsula. And then I sit there and I realize I can't run away because I have no passport, I have no money. He's taken all the money. I have almost no possessions. I have a little kind of in that now. I literally had a little kind of tied up sticker. I had my teddy bear in it. But you know, I had all. Had nothing. But I had nowhere to go. So what was I gonna do? I would probably get deported back to the UK because I guess I was British. But they would almost certainly just take me back to the boat again. So I couldn't run away. I was trapped. I was like a prisoner. And that was my realization. I had no way to get away. And the only way that I could get away was educating myself. Now, how that was going to lead to me getting away was slightly unclear and a little bit kind of murky. But I had this kind of concept that if I could do well enough educating myself, somehow I would get some sort of place somewhere and that would give me a way out. Wasn't quite sure how, that the whole plan hadn't been fully worked out, I have to say. But there we go.
- [44:36]
Jenny Eric
There's no one to talk to about it. There's no one to ask. Yes. And I. I remember when I read that part where you were like, I'm going to start to, like, reach out to Oxford or Harvard or. And you're like, I don't know, what's the address? Like, how do I send a letter to them? I'm just going to put Oxford, you know, like all that. There's no one guiding anything. And. Yeah, okay, so then I do want to talk about. There were a couple people that stood out that were really helpful and did some nice things, you know, like Pat, I think you said, she's the one who went and bought you your bras when you, you know, came of age and your mom wouldn't do it. And there was a woman named Pam, who I think sewed your skirts for you when you finally went to go interview for college. Obviously, your mom is a seamstress. She's sewing the sails on the boat like she's a. She would sew all sorts of clothes. There was all this whole thing about her that she was a seamless dress and she didn't sew your clothes for you to go do these college interviews. And then there was the biology teacher, Roger, who you credit a lot to. You know, he would send you books. He was a correspondence teacher, and he played a big part in your story. So could you talk about just those couple people? I mean, you would hope there would have been more.
- [45:59]
Suzanne Haywood
One of the things that I would love us all to remember as adults is what a huge difference we can make to a child's life through things that actually we probably think are really small. So the bra thing. We were in Hawaii. I was always very petite. I'm still very petite. My mum was not petite. And so she used to mock me, you know, and she always did, about being very petite. And this is, by the way, horrible, as you can imagine, as a teenage girl, because, you know, a teenage girl you're full of all sorts of insecurities. And at one point, even though I was petite, I didn't feel like I could swim anymore without actually having a swimsuit. And I. I felt uncomfortable wearing a T shirt without having a bra. And so I went and asked her, can I have a bra? And she just walked with laughter and mocked me and then kind of went and told it. It was horrific. And I. Then I had a friend in Hawaii, and I went to go and see her from when we'd been in Waimea Bay, which we talked about earlier. And I was telling her, I really want to get a bra. My mom won't get me one because she says I don't need one. And this friend's mom, Heidi's mum, she just stopped the car, she turned it around and she drove to a mall and she bought me three bras. And I didn't have much of a relationship with Heidi's mom, but that was an incredible thing to do. I mean, you can't kind of. Because I would have never been able to get one. And she must have thought, this is horrific, you know, this little girl or young woman, you know, she can't even have a bra. I mean, what a kind of horrible thing. So she was amazing. And a tiny intervention. Tiny, tiny intervention. But, like, transformative. There was Mr. Ray on the boat, who was just an amazing crew member who was on board. I still. Mr. Ray and I are still very close friends. And he just had an amazing. He was the first person in my life where I just felt this person, I can do no wrong. You know, he doesn't want anything of me. He just loves me. And he likes kind of sitting on deck with me and chatting with me. And he's just so kind. And in fact, when I became a parent, I kind of thought, I'm going to be like Mr. Ray, you know, as smart as I possibly can be. I don't think I can because Mr. Ray is just so sweet that I can't sometimes. He's been with me on a few of my book events. So Mr. Ray always takes over. He just. Everyone loves Mr. Ray. He's just kind of fantastic. And then Pam. So Pam was a friend of my mum's in Auckland in. When we were basically left on our own in New Zealand. And I didn't see her much for most of the time I was left in New Zealand because she was too far away. But right at the end, I drove up to Auckland to do my exams and it was Pam who, first of all, Welcomed me with open arms. I was really hungry because I hadn't been eating very much. He just kind of made me tons of food. I remember eating buttered toast, you know, and it was just amazing. Like, kind of. I don't know how many slices of butter toast I probably ate, but quite a few. But then he said, okay, what do you need? Because you're going to go for this interview to try and get into. Into university. You can't just go in, like, one ripped T shirt. So we'll make something. Because Pam didn't have very much money either. And so we made these skirts. And that was just amazing, you know, because again, it was like one of the few times in my childhood where I had an adult doing something which was like, entirely for me.
- [49:32]
Jenny Eric
Yeah.
- [49:32]
Suzanne Haywood
There was no benefit to Pat in making some skirts for me. And I just can't remember my parents really ever doing anything that was, like, just for me, where there was no benefit for them or the boat, all the kind of family project. But Pam was doing that. She was amazing. And so these people, even if they only intervene in your life, a kid's life, a child's life, quite a small amount, you can be completely transformative, whether you're, you know, in a Sunday school or a coach or something. I've always remembered that. The little things. And actually, even adults, you know, kind of, if you, you know, friends who get into tricky situations, you know, a small intervention can be completely transformative. People never forget it.
- [50:15]
Jenny Eric
Ah. It might end up in a book someday. Wow. And Mr. Ray, a big part of Mr. Ray's part here in this, in your story, in your memoir, is that
- [50:26]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
he gets you a diary or.
- [50:29]
Jenny Eric
I don't know if he got it for you, but, like, you end up writing, starting to write in the diary because of his influence, and then you never stopped. And then that also helps you, you know, later on to go back and
- [50:40]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
piece together a book like this to talk about your story.
- [50:43]
Jenny Eric
And then also there was the. The biology teacher who would send you science books and said, you've got this talent. And. And he said at the very end, you, like, find out I'm not going to read. Exactly, because people need to read the book. But you know that he had had a rough childhood, so he believes in you. And I was like, oh, you know, like a correspondence teacher. Like, they don't have to do that. They don't have to do anything extra. You just get the things in the mail, you send the things back. And yet he. He realized there was some part of him that realized things were hard for you.
- [51:16]
Suzanne Haywood
He was amazing, Roger, my biology teacher, of all my teachers that I had at the correspondence school. He and I really connected somehow, but we never met. That's really weird. Isn't that weird? So we never met. You know, he was just a name on a piece of paper that I would post my lessons to him, and he would post questions, comments back. But as the time went on and he was my teacher for the last two years, and it was biology that I wanted to study at university, Although kind of whether that was because of Roger or Roger knew that, I don't know, because the two things are kind of intertwined. But somehow, as I started sending these lessons back, he started sending more and more back to me. I think he saw that I had a talent, and so he started not just sending the lessons. Lessons back, but he'd send the lessons back and a book, because I had no access to a library. And then he'd send another book. And then I started not just sending my lessons to him, but I started writing him letters and telling him, this is what I'm trying to do. I want to go to university. And then I would tell him what was happening when I'd written off randomly to all these universities. And then when Oxford wrote back to me and said, can you write an essay? It was Roger I wrote to, not my parents. I wrote to Roger and said, roger, what am I going to write an essay about? And it was Roger who kind of came up with some, Helped me think about some topics for the essays. One was his, one was mine. And then he introduced me to a professor at a university who helped me. I only met Roger when I was writing the book. So this is like 30 years later. And I went back to Australia with my kids, actually, because I was retracing a lot of the places I've been to as a child, and I. I was writing the book, and I wanted to see them again. I wanted to find as many people as I could. And one of the people I found was Roger. And it was only then that I realized that Roger was in a wheelchair. And it really made me think that. Well, first of all, I mean, I don't kind of blame my younger self because I was just so focused on getting out of this huge hole that I was in. I guess it never even thought to me, never even occurred to me to think about Roger as a person, but it was a real lesson for me, you know, how, you know, we can be so completely focused on the issues that we're dealing with, we don't even think. Okay, well, the person on the other side of this correspondence that Roger and I had for those years, he has a whole bunch of issues, too. Not the Roger. I have to say, when I, When I met Roger, not that Roger would have made a. You know, that that wasn't what he wanted to talk to me about. And, But. But that. That for me is kind of amazing. So he was an incredible teacher, and he decided he was going to become a correspondence teacher because he was in a wheelchair. I think he found it much easier to do that. And I mean, one teacher can just transform a kid's life. So I was very lucky. So I was very lucky with Pam. I was very lucky with that. That kind of mother in Hawaii. I was really lucky with Mr. Ray. I was really lucky with Roger. But as you say, you look back on all this, and those people were amazing, and I owe them a huge amount. I was also, incredibly, I owe such amount to my tutor who let me in to University. But over 10 years, they were really. You add up the whole.
- [54:37]
Jenny Eric
It's like five people, four people. It's not that many. Some of them were like very small touch points.
- [54:46]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah.
- [54:47]
Jenny Eric
You know, I'm taking to the mall once. I'm gonna show you these skirts. Yeah.
- [54:52]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
Wow.
- [54:52]
Jenny Eric
I. I love. I mean, we have it. We never even hit Rotorua. I don't even know if that's how you say it. My daughter picked. My daughter, who's 16, grabbed this book. I was like, okay, I. I have to. I have to go through and make my notes. You know, I had to grab it back from her. But she. I mean, it is a phenomenal. Because if. Then you keep reading and your parents just leave you, at one point, they're like, well, we're gonna go do more boat things. And you're a kid. We're gonna leave you with your. You're gonna be in charge of your brother. You're in this place, it's cold. You have to chop your own wood. They leave you no money. I mean, it's just. And then your dad will say things like, he'll. They'll call every once in a while, and I'll be like, your mom's looking forward to a steak dinner tonight. And they're just like, what? And then, you know, I. It's just. It's just shocking. And I, And I love how you wrap it up at the end.
- [55:36]
Suzanne Haywood
You.
- [55:36]
Jenny Eric
You say the easiest thing to say
- [55:39]
Podcast Host - Sponsor Read
is, it worked out in the end.
- [55:41]
Jenny Eric
And you're like, that is an easy thing to say, but you know, is all's well that ends well. True, you know. No, it's not. I mean, it's so thought provoking. It just sticks. It's phenomenally written. I really loved the Christmas and the Ripple Runners, how that wove through the book. You're like, we're on Ripple Rubber Runner five, which is like the small boat that you would have to use to get to like an island or something, you know, so you're like, oh my gosh, it's Ripple. And then they keep getting lost or ruined. Like Ripple Runner three. Now they're on four. It's Christmas number eight. I mean, it's just phenomenally written. It's a page turner also. Just heartbreaking. It makes you think about a lot of things and like you said, you know, the impact that we can have on other people's talking about what an incredible writer that you are. This book is called Wave Walker, A Memoir of Breaking for. You are an international best selling author. Can you tell us about your other books and the one that you're writing right now? And then this book is being turned into a miniseries.
- [56:40]
Suzanne Haywood
Yeah, so. Well, quickly. So I also, I've written some other books, but the other one which I would love to tell you about is I wrote a memoir of my husband, my late husband. Sadly, he passed away in 2018. We have three kids. He was an amazing man. He worked for four different British Prime Ministers, had an incredible career. But I decided to write his biography as a person. So it, it has a huge amount of British politics which, you know, people may or kind of may not. But I mean, I find it fascinating but kind of woven through it is the person and all the stuff that's going on. And, and that is another thing that we often forget is you look at these people who are doing these jobs and you don't realize actually there's a lot of stuff going on in the background. There's a moment where, you know, unfortunately we have a kind of a miscarriage and poor Jeremy's having to kind of rush back into work and all sorts of stuff is happening at the same time. So that one's called what does Jeremy Think? Which is what a lot of people in the UK civil service used to say. My husband's name was Jeremy. Now the book I'm about now. Right, well, you're right. Wavewalker has been optioned to become a miniseries, which is very exciting. We're waiting to see. Hopefully we will get somebody pick it up to make it. We've Got some actors already involved, got a writer involved. So we're hoping it's going to get picked up. So that's very exciting. And the book I'm writing now, since Wave Walker came out and it's been so successful, I've had a lot of people reaching out to me with stories of their crazy childhood. So I now have a spreadsheet of about 120 stories that people have told me. Now, most of these are sailing stories, about three quarters, but about a quarter of them are not. I mean, there was a crazy story of a woman who got dragged by her parents cycling across America. Didn't go well. There was another woman who was taken by her father who was obsessed with mistletoe across Africa collecting mistletoe. And then they got on a kind of, you know, on a ship and got to Australia and went across Australia collecting mistletoe. These are crazy stories of again, kind of people who get taken outside of society as a kid. So I'm writing a set of those five. Five of those stories, five that of the 130 blew me away. Now, they all end in different ways, some more positively, some more negatively because there is a whole span of these. And also I think that really makes us think about what makes these stories more positive or more negative. What enables somebody to kind of come out of it and do something with it or for it to end kind of horribly. I think it kind of that. That's really interesting having five stories alongside each other and deliberately picking ones with different sorts of endings. I also wonder whether, as someone reads this book and I'm going to interweave these stories, I'm wondering whether they're going to guess. Be able to guess which ones end where as you go along. So that is really fascinating to me as well. And there's going to be the three girls, two boys. They're real stories. And there's all sorts of things about kind of it's different if you're a boy and it's different if you're a girl. For me, anyway, it's fascinating. So that's what I'm working on now because I think the writing is now in my blood. I'm afraid, you know, that's one of the things that I do alongside.
- [60:15]
Jenny Eric
I mean, you're fantastic at it. Fantastic. I mean, it was such a page turner. And what an interesting premise. Other people who have been trapped inside other people's dreams and gotten stuck there. Wow, I cannot wait to read that. Suzanne, I am not surprised. A miniseries because there's so Many different parts. The book includes pictures in it too. I mean it's phenomenal. It is called Wave Walker A Memoir of Breaking Free. Suzanne we always end our show with the same question. What's a memory from a favorite? This is an interesting one to ask you. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [60:49]
Suzanne Haywood
Wow. It would be sitting on the bowsprit which is the bit at the front of the boat. Like the long, almost like a gang plank at the front of the boat which you attach the sails to. Sitting on the bowsprit with Mr. Ray in the dusk watching the bow kind of cutting through the water with the phosphorescence coming up on either side going across the Australian Bight. So that's the southern coast of Australia. I just remember sitting there with Mr. Ray chatting and watching the phosphorus.
- [61:22]
Jenny Eric
Suzanne, I so appreciate this time that you spent with us. I loved, loved the book and like I said, my daughter immediately grabbed it. You know, she, she wants to read it too. So she is gonna get to enjoy and, and have all these page turning moments like I had. I mean you can hardly, I just kept saying I can hardly believe this is real. Like this is someone's actual story. But you're a phenomenal writer and I'm so glad that you wrote it. Thanks for being here and I can't wait for the next one.
- [61:46]
Suzanne Haywood
Thank you. It's been wonderful.
- [61:50]
Jenny Eric
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this,
- [61:53]
Suzanne Haywood
but anyone can get the same Premium
- [61:55]
Jenny Eric
Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.
- [61:58]
Suzanne Haywood
It's not just for celebrities.
- [62:00]
Jenny Eric
So do like I did and have
- [62:01]
Suzanne Haywood
one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [62:08]
Mint Mobile Ad Voice
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