← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 818: The Courage to Be Known | Michael John Cusick, Sacred Attachment
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- [00:00]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
This episode is sponsored by Fora Travel. You know, one thing we've realized through all of our travels as a family of seven is that trip planning is almost an art form between finding the right places to stay, mapping out experiences, coordinating schedules, and helping other families figure out what actually works. With kids, it takes a real skill set. And honestly, a lot of people are already doing this naturally for friends and family without realizing it could become something more. That's why I think Fora is such an interesting idea. Fora is a modern travel agency built for people who want to create a meaningful travel business on their own terms. Maybe you've spent years organizing trips, helping others plan adventures, managing details and building relationships. Those are real transferable skills. And the great part is you don't need prior travel industry experience to get started. Fora provides the training, technology and support system to help you build at your own pace. Plus you get access to a community of experienced advisors who are doing the same thing. There are no sales quotas or minimums, so it can fit alongside your current season of life while you build something meaningful. Your next act starts here. Become a Fora advisor today@foratra travel.com 1000hours. That's F O R A travel.com 1000hours. And make sure you tell them we sent you for a travel.com 1000hours.
- [01:14]
Jenny Yurch
Welcome to the 1000hours outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I'm so honored today to have have an author here who wrote a book that I really loved. And sometimes, you know, there's not a huge crossover with 1000 hours outside, but there always is some sort of crossover. It's like almost always embodiment and relationships and that type of thing. So I'm always thankful when an author who probably is like, why is this person asking me to come on their podcast says yes. So, Michael John Cusick, author of Sacred Attachment, you've got your own podcast as well. This is escaping spiritual exhaustion and trusting in divine love. You talk a lot about addiction and just having a fuller life. So, Michael, welcome.
- [01:55]
Michael John Cusick
I'm just delighted to be here, Jenny. Thank you.
- [01:57]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, before we kick it off, I want you to tell people about what you have going on. You talk about restoring the soul a little bit in the book, I'm pretty sure, because I remember reading, I think about that. But you have a non profit that you've had for 25 years where you're really helping people who are struggling with where they're at in Life. You also have your own podcast, so tell us about the things that you have before we kick it off into some of these conversation topics.
- [02:17]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, you bet. So I've been a licensed therapist for 32 years in Colorado, but I've also walked through a fair amount of my own struggle and brokenness with addiction and trauma from early childhood. And about 25 years ago, as I was in private practice and also a professor training graduate students, someone called me up and said, hey, will you work with one of my friends? But they're in a field where they're really serious and intense. They happen to be a physician. I won't talk about what kind, but they want to go somewhere for like two weeks and just dig into their stuff. And I thought that was the craziest idea I ever heard, but I did that. And I had the flexibility to do that because of the university I was with. And what I saw happen during that time was absolutely profound. The connection, the safety, the transformation that really led to nine to 12 months of counseling change in about two weeks because we met for three hours a day. So I left academia, started this nonprofit organization. We care for the caregivers. So clergy, NGO workers from abroad, some first responders, some military, but people that either don't have access to counseling where they're living, or where people are stuck in their attempts at therapy and counseling. And so it's a really, really beautiful program that we get to see. And every year we give away anywhere upwards of $300,000 in scholarships to people that are qualified for those services, so people can check that out. Thanks for being gracious to talk about it. Restoringthesoul.com that launched a podcast that we've done for eight years now. And that's just me sitting down with thought leaders in the field of psychology, mental health, Christian spirituality, the integration of those two. Sometimes I'll just talk about my own material in my books. And we've had everybody from poets to Emmy Award winning musicians and on and on. So it's. I love what I do and what
- [04:16]
Jenny Yurch
a thing that you can do this intense intensive, you know, where you go for two weeks. Because sometimes people are just like at rock bottom and they really need the change. And so instead of having it last nine to 12 months where you meet once a week or something like that, you get to have this, this deeper time and you can turn things around. So you are really honest. The book I have of yours is called Sacred Attachment. And you are really honest in this book about your story about having horrific abuse as A young child through your. Within your family unit. I guess maybe it would be considered extended family, but it is a family unit. And then you become an adult and you know, you're struggling with these different addictions and, and some of the addictions. And I sometimes kids listening with their parents, I'm always like a little more overarching. But you know, some of the addictions that people struggle with today, but that at, you know, in certain generations, certain decades past, it was like harder to have access to those different addictions. Yet, you know, you see your desperation there and you, you really have this different way of looking at it. This, this way of an empathetic way of looking at it, I guess, is what I would say. And I think we're in a day and age where there is a lot of addiction. So I would love if you would kick it off with the. The difference and you talk about it in the book. The difference between addiction and Compulsion.
- [05:42]
Michael John Cusick
Well, first of all, addiction is a term that. One of the foremost neuroscientists who has written about addiction, Dr. Erickson, actually said that he does not like the term addiction because it's so imprecise from a medical definition. Addiction is really about tolerance and withdrawal despite adverse consequences. Tolerance means that you need more and more of something to get the same effect. So whether it's shopping, drugs, alcohol, food, pornography, other online behaviors, and we can be addicted to good things, by the way, that we actually need more and more of it. And then when we stop it or when that is taken away, that we actually have withdrawal symptoms and that we're doing this behavior that's unwanted despite the fact that there's negative consequences there. So those are the first three big categories are kind of the medical addiction definition. But then I talk about in the book this definition written just by a layperson who was trained as a theologian who happened to write about addiction in the 80s. And he defined it as any unhealthy, mood altering relationship with a person, a behavior or a substance. And what's uncanny there is that he actually defined addiction as a relationship. So we have a relationship with these behaviors, these substances or people. And therefore every addiction and compulsion actually meets a need that is, that is intended to be met and normatively met through relationship and what we therapists call through attachment through connections.
- [07:25]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. Wow, what a definition. An unhealthy. This is from John Bradshaw. An unhealthy mood altering relationship with a person, substance or behavior. With our addiction, the person, substance or behavior promises to give us so much at first and eventually starts to take from us until it takes everything. You also use this phrase, spinning in place. Yeah, that's your, like, definition or, you know, phrase to kind of explain it.
- [07:51]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, I'm spinning and spinning. Sometimes I refer to it as a hamster wheel. I don't want to keep going around and around, but I can't get off. And that's not just a matter of the will. You know, that's another thing is that compulsions. And there is a very fine line between a compulsion and an addiction. A compulsion is just something that I feel so compelled to do. And we can have compulsive thinking, things like ocd, but between that fine line, the question is really despite adverse consequences and the withdrawal and the tolerance part. But yeah, every addiction keeps you stuck and keeps you spinning, and it's hard to get off that wheel.
- [08:26]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, so you talk about the compulsion and addiction. You write like this. They always leave the light on for us. They beckon and draw us in. They invite us. Here's a safe place to go. You can enter where all the pain fades away, but it's only for a little while. So this book talks a lot about, and I think especially today, when there's a lot of anxiety and you can soothe yourself in a lot of different ways. So there's addictions. Like, you just brought up a whole bunch of different kinds, you know, gambling and pornography of food. That would be one that I would lean toward, you know, is eating. You know, it's a place where the pain fades or you just feel like it just takes the edge off for a little while.
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Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
Right.
- [09:07]
Jenny Yurch
So you. You talk about. The book is about how to change those types of things. And. And in your case, you have this horrific childhood experience that plays into it, you know, but whether you have it or not, you can find yourself in a spot where you're spinning in place. So the way that you frame this, as you say, what if out of control behavior is not the product of depravity? It's not just a matter of the will. You're an awful person. You have no self control. But brokenness.
- [09:38]
Michael John Cusick
Yes.
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Jenny Yurch
Can you talk about that?
- [09:41]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah. About 15 years ago, there was a book written by Dr. Gabor Mate, who was born and raised in Hungary. His grandparents were killed in the Holocaust. And he's. He's a Canadian retired physician. He's now 82 years old. But he's the physician who had the audacity to suggest through his clinical experience, but also through research and science, that addictions are actually about attachment wounds. They're about broken connections. So the brokenness, first and foremost, is about broken relationship. And that, that's not just a relational thing, but it's a neurological reality that this broken relationship causes real changes in the nervous system, which then predispose us to go and form a relationship with a substance like food. And by the way, food has been my nemesis for my entire life. And I write at the end of the book about how, you know, it's easy for me to write about an addiction that almost ruined my marriage 35 years ago, but I want to be vulnerable and real in the present, to give people hope that you're not crazy and there's not something wrong with you if you're struggling. And so it was about four years ago that I had to come to terms with my eating compulsion and went to a 12 step group for several years to really gain some freedom around that. And it's still something I have to contend with. And at the root of that is not, as you said, Ginny, a lack of willpower. Yes, we need to show up. Yes, we need to make healthy decisions. But when there are things in our lives that we can't stop doing, what most of us do is we is we say, awful. Me, I'm not disciplined enough. I'm not strong enough for those that might have a religious orientation. You know, I don't have enough faith or trust or spirituality or something like that. And it's really about what's going on inside of us in our nervous system and this broken attachment. And so, you know, the, if there were. The core part of the book, it's around these four S's that I talk about, that every human being was created from womb to tomb, that is from birth until the moment we die, Even if it's 10 decades later for four things to be seen, Soothed, safe and secure. And to the degree that we get those, we will develop what we therapists call a secure attachment, meaning that we will know that relationships are safe, that we can bring who we are into relationships, that others are available and present to us. And if we're not seen, soothe, safe and secure, we will develop an insecure attachment. There's several different kinds of those. Anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, ambivalent, or what some people call disorganized attachment. And those will lead us to the kinds of compulsive, addictive behaviors that ultimately we won't break free from until we get into some kind of relationship or community where we can really be ourselves, be honest about that, and then walk a path to be present to ourselves and able to be present to others, which is really what secure attachment is about.
- [12:48]
Jenny Yurch
You talk about in the book how, you know, and you said this at the beginning, you're a professor, you're teaching seminary and you've got graduate level classes. It's their students and there's pastors and there's counselors. How do people respond when you say things like out of control behavior is not the product of depravity, but brokenness. And you, you talk about, instead of saying like the fall at the beginning of Genesis, you know, people talk about the fall and Eve had the apple and then now there's all this sin. You talk about it as a learning. Are people kind of shocked?
- [13:22]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
Are they immediately on board?
- [13:23]
Jenny Yurch
Do they get it?
- [13:25]
Michael John Cusick
Well, generally speaking, the response to the book has been overwhelmingly positive. And I, I really wrote this book with the person in mind that sits in my counseling office or those graduate students, or Even my own 28 year old son who grew up in a Christian faith tradition. And we thought we were relatively healthy in how we did that as opposed to, you know, overly rigid. And. And he has walked away from that faith. And I wanted to get to the core of what is the essence of a healthy faith. And it's not so much about what we believe, that's our religious conviction, it's about what we experience of the reality of our faith. And my own journey was I remember standing in church one day as a pornography addicted young man who loved God and felt called to the ministry. And I remember standing up singing this worship song. And the inside, private part of my life was completely disconnected from the part of me that stood proclaiming all these values and that looked like a good Christian person by day. And I said to God, probably the first honest prayer that I ever prayed, and that was God, if this is all there is, if this is what my Christian faith is, then I don't want to be a Christian. And it was at that point where slowly healing began to happen in my life. Because only when I was honest and willing to be vulnerable and actually to be known, because God can only deal with what's real inside of me as opposed to me pushing that away, denying it, and then trying harder to stop doing what I was doing, I never got to a place of desperation, I, or what some addicts call rock bottom, so that I. So. So I was actually kind of out of gas and out of game.
- [15:13]
Jenny Yurch
Hmm. That's very interesting.
- [15:15]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
What we experience.
- [15:17]
Jenny Yurch
People have all sorts of experiences, don't they?
- [15:20]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah. Yeah. And so many people have really negative and even toxic religious baggage, which is why we see in our world today, you know, people going in one of two extremes, either moving further away from of faith or taking on their faith and making it about just what they believe and what they stand for socially and culturally. And I would say that the midpoint in that, not that either one of those is wrong, but to say that where is experience with love, with a loving, benevolent, merciful, kind God who is like the very best parent that we can't even imagine attending to us, A God who sees us, a God who soothes us, A God that provides a sense of safety and security in the midst of, you know, the worst things that are happening. And that's been my experience, is that I had to grow into that kind of a faith experience. And what that does is that kind of healthy faith experience then allows me to heal the relational experiences from my childhood trauma, from neglect, from abuse, where my nervous system was shaped by that. So oftentimes people that struggle with faith have issues from their past in their nervous system, their story, etc, that as those get healed, they might move into a much healthier place of faith and spirituality that's experience based. And other times people will have to start with healing their image and their understanding of God and then that affects their relationships. But it can work both ways.
- [16:53]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, so there's a lot of that in this book. It's called Sacred Attachment. I love the different stories that you tell. Like the story about Zacchaeus, you know, that he had to be known, but he just, he wanted, he's like, went up in the tree, I'm gonna watch, you know, and you say he simply planned to be an observer, not the observed. And so there is just a lot of beautiful information in here about wholeness.
- [17:14]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
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- [20:57]
Jenny Yurch
But before we get to that, I wanted to double back to the protective sort of like the, the attachment piece. Because there is a lot to be addicted to and it's just wrong. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day that has a kidney stone. You know, the kidney stone is like real big. The doctor said it was like the, you know, Mount Everest of kidney stones. And the person drinks a lot of diet pop, Diet Coke. And then the, apparently the doctor was like, drinking any sort of dark soda is like pouring kidney stones into your kidneys. And I was like, well, it's addictive. Like, you know, on one hand you want to be like, they shouldn't drink, drink all that diet pop. But then on the other hand you're like, I get it. You know, it's, it's made to be so unbelievably addicted. You know, when you're talking about pornography, it's like, well, if you used to have to go in person to a place and put money in a machine, you know, that that's a lot more that you have to work around and hide, you know, than if you can just use your phone or whatever. So can you talk about especially like to the parents that are trying to raise their kids in this world where there's so many things that you could be addicted to. We were just laughing the other day of these commercials that come on for gambling. But then at the bottom it will be like, call 1-800- gambler if you're addicted. What should we be doing attachment wise? And I, and I don't, I don't know, I don't want to like put all the burden out of the parent, I guess. Right to be. You can't necessarily control the outcome of your child. But if some of this has to deal with attachment and that addiction is this relationship, this unhealthy relationship with a substance or a person or behavior, are there some protective measures that you would suggest for a parent to be aware of so that you know, we can do our best to give our kids like a little bit of a hedge of protection? I don't even know if that's the right way to say it.
- [22:48]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, that's a great, it's a great question and so true about gambling. Gambling has become the new primary addiction for men roughly 17 to 35 years old and probably just to 25. You know, where it's, it's everywhere now and it's not just betting on games but it's betting and hedging on anything and everything. You know who will win the Academy Award and that kind of thing and will Taylor Swift wear a red shirt or a blue shirt? And yeah, and then we put the warning at the bottom. Call 1-81-800- GAMELING. That's like somebody who's selling and manufacturing hammers that says take this and bang it against your head. But then if you get a headache, call 1-800- you know, that kind of thing. It's like addictions will cause pain. Addictions will result in a person experiencing shame and powerlessness and disconnection because it always creates disconnection and hiddenness and it's relationship that heals. I think the biggest thing that I would say is that what parents can do with children is to begin the conversation around sexuality especially as we're talking about pornography and addiction to begin the conversation about two things about sexuality. Not waiting till they hit puberty and then having the talk but beginning to integrate from you know, pre verbal all the way up attaching to that child and their particular needs. So seeing the child which from these four S's of seeing soothe safe and secure. And I'm just going to read down a list of things that the parent sees the child and that communicates I get you, I get you. And it's inevitable. I grew up in a family of five and my guess, especially in the generation where I'm the youngest, I was born in 1964. So the rest are baby boomers that my parents in one sense despite their good heartedness, my dad worked two full time jobs, my mom was married to an alcoholic. And so I don't think they had a clue about who we were in our uniquenesses. It was about just feeding us and clothing us. And they put us all through Catholic school as young kids. And so this sense of them being attuned to our emotional needs was not something that was a high priority. They were attuned to feeding us and clothing us. And I was actually raised by my two oldest sisters that were nine and 10 years apart. But a parent being emotionally attuned to who each child is and their uniquenesses to relate to your child in a way where they sense and know that they are accepted for who they are and that they feel understood regardless of your behavior. And an example of this might be, we tried to do this with our kids and we weren't 100% successful all the time, but when they disobeyed, when they somehow were not compliant, when they somehow did things that were not okay, rather than just offering punishment. And we think there's a big difference between punishment and discipline. Discipline is rooted in the word disciple. And that means to apprentice, to shape, to walk with, with this idea that we're not raising children, we're raising future adults and what are the, what are the consequences and things like that that are needed. So really understanding what's going on with the kid. What was going on when you hit your sister? Well, I was really angry. Oh, you were really angry. Looking them in the eye and kind of mirroring what they're feeling now. I know some people listening might be rolling their eyes at this, going, this is politically correct, you know, everybody needs a safe space kind of thing. But the reality is, is that children need attunement. That in that attunement there's a gaze from the parent. That they delight in them, that they don't just love them, but they delight in them. That they like them and that they communicate that. That that child is given time and attention. Which is so much of what your organization and podcast is about, right? When you give a child time and attention, you're communicating without words. You're communicating with your calendar and with your body. You have value. And so that child's thoughts, feelings and struggles, they matter. And that those are welcome. And especially for those who grew up in a, what I'll call a constrictive religious environment, parents oftentimes out of their own convictions or anxieties or simply what they were given, they focus more on the child doing the right thing, complying and obeying, as opposed to that child's heart and parenting. And back to your question of what we can do for our kids is really to shepherd our kids hearts. And that's not an original phrase with me, but it's certainly, I think, the very best thing that we can do to be attentive to what's going on inside of them. When we see external struggles, whether it's addiction and compulsion. I would add to that as almost number two, but in a huge parenthesis that parents need to overestimate the level of exposure and addiction. Algorithms and processes are actually built into technology, so there is nothing about a child's character that will cause them to be addicted. It's literally about neurons and how the technology and how the addictive objects or substances are there, whether that's video games, whether it's online, whether it's sugar. Yeah, sugar. Yeah, absolutely. It's not about character. It's about chemical, neurological, physiological realities.
- [28:34]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. And that these relationships matter, and they help. And. And that's wounded Tomb. The whole. The whole gamut. And you talk about in the book, like, the wounds of absence can be tricky. And so, you know, you're like, look, my parents clothed me, they fed me. They sent me to this school that, you know, was probably a better school
- [28:53]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
or they thought was a better school
- [28:54]
Jenny Yurch
than the other ones. And yet there was these emotional needs that were not hit. And so those are the wounds of absence. I actually just read this incredible book. It's called Wave Walker, and it's a memoir of this lady whose parents, when she was 7, took her and her little brother on this boat trip that was supposed to go around the world, but then she was, like, trapped on the boat for 10 years. And they, like, they didn't have enough food. She hardly had clothes. They didn't have water. Like, she didn't get her schoolwork done, you know, and it's just. It's like, that's an extreme. Right? You see all the ways that the parents, you know, missed the boat. But then, like, it can be these smaller things where. And it's tricky. You got to provide for the kids you like, the dad's working two jobs, you know, but. But these things matter. Seen, soothe, safe, secure. Can we talk about wholeness? I mean, to me, wholeness feels, like, free from addiction, Right? Wholeness. But you say wholeness invites you to surrender the shards and broken pieces of your life together. They dare you to discover that you are better broken. You talk in this book about your journey to wholeness, beginning at age 5, going to AA with your dad, you know, helping to set up the chairs and make coffee. And then at age nine, you know, you're driving across the country, helping drug rehab with your brother. At 16, you're hospitalized with mental health issues. As a young man, you say you lived a double life and almost destroyed your marriage. If we want to be whole, what are we supposed to do?
- [30:20]
Michael John Cusick
Wow, Jenny, that's. That's a fantastic question. And I appreciate you saying that wholeness feels like we, we shouldn't be addicted because I think that's the first assumption. We think that wholeness somehow means that I've arrived, that I've crossed a finish line, that we do not struggle. And it's almost exactly the opposite. The analogy that I would give is picture yourself and any listener right now. If you're driving, hold onto the steering wheel, please. But picture yourself with two hands extended outward, palms up. And in one hand are these parts of you that you're a loving person, that you're a kind person, that you're a generous parent, that you have friendships, that you want good in the world. Let's just call it the true great virtues that you want to live about truth, goodness and beauty. And then there's this other part of you that you can be short tempered. You can yell at your kids, you can make New Year's resolutions, or sign up for a health club in summer and say, I'm going to start doing this, and then two days later, you know, your intentions fall short. Most of us can identify between the best of us and the worst of us. Wholeness is to tell the truth about both of those, to see the the best of us in one hand and then the worst of us in the other hand, and then to present that to others. This is who I actually am, and that's vulnerability. And vulnerability in our world today is not a good thing. It's actually antithetical with the American way, right? Be self made, don't be dependent, be self reliant, et cetera. But vulnerability from a human perspective, if we look at evolution or we look at a religious perspective, the vulnerability of an infant would never be shamed or questioned. Nobody would ever say, I can't believe that baby is three months old. They're still pooping in their diaper and they're not making microwave meals yet to help out their siblings. You know, nobody would say that that vulnerability is a natural part of their development. So wholeness is, I can take this piece and this piece. I can take the good and the bad and I can bring them together and be in a loving relationship. And. And when that happens, the human soul and our psyche just begins to exhale and we begin to go, oh, maybe I'm okay. The way I am. And yes, I can aspire to being less reactive, less angry, to do better with my diet. But what if I'm okay the way I am? And what if being loved, being seen, soothed, safe and secure, being liked, having value and worth is not based on my performance in life or based on the presence of my struggles? But what if a whole person is all of me? That's really what wholeness is.
- [33:03]
Jenny Yurch
What a book. What a book. What a concept. What a concept. And especially I think in faith based circles you may not hear that, or maybe, you know, you might not have heard that growing up, that's for sure. Okay, so another thing that you talk about in this book, sacred attachment is embodiment. And I think this is a big topic today too, because of screens. I think we're often really disconnected from the way that we feel. And, and I, I liked how you wrote Jesus was earthier. It was like a statement that you used in there. His holiness was earthier. It was more human, it was grounded, humble, less ethereal and separate, more restorative and grace based, less restrictive and merit based. Can you talk about the importance of, of embodiment of being in our body of play? That's one of the things that you talk about, of just like hands on living in a really tech saturated world.
- [33:51]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah. So the human experience, I would argue, is the, the minute that we come into the world, we are embodied. An infant does not have cognitive structures to understand what a parent is or if their stomach is empty. They only have sensory experience, touch, taste, sight, smell, sound, and some would argue a sixth sense of neuroception. And neuroception is our nervous system's ability to detect things without necessarily having information. So an infant we're learning through neuroscience might not even be able to see for the first 24 hours because their vision is still a little cloudy. But they sense through their nervous system that there is a loving presence there. And if there's an anxious presence of the parent being super stressed out or worried or having problems at home and they're walking around with anxiety or depression or something, the infant's nervous system can actually pick that up. And as we move through life, we tend to lose our connection to that neuroception, although it's always still there. We tend to move into our right brain, which is our thinking, logical part of our brain. It's how we.
- [35:03]
Jenny Yurch
Our left brain.
- [35:04]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, sorry, our left brain. Yeah. Thank you for correcting that. It's how we try to apprehend the world and make life work versus Our right brain, which sees the much bigger picture. It's not just about emotion. It's about creativity. It's about attachment. It's the first part of the brain that develops, and it's our receptive part that can actually take in and receive from others. Therefore, it's critical for spirituality. I forgot your question.
- [35:31]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, well, so. So in this day and age when it's so. Dr. Arthur Brooks just came out with a book about AIDS. Like, it's so much left brain living.
- [35:41]
Michael John Cusick
I love Arthur Brooks.
- [35:42]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
Yeah, I do.
- [35:43]
Jenny Yurch
He's got such great information out there and very practical. But we had so much left brain living, and you can really get sucked into that because actually, that's addict. That's a lot of the addictive part. Right.
- [35:53]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
It's all on the screen.
- [35:54]
Jenny Yurch
So this. I love the part of the book about embodiment and Earth Year and right brain and that. That's, you know, not. Not just for spirituality, but it's really for, like, life enhancement.
- [36:07]
Michael John Cusick
Yes. It's about being fully alive. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for directing me back to the embodiment topic. That's what my long little segue was for. So there is a renaissance happening in the Western world, and I think it started during the pandemic when people were disconnected from relationship. They were largely inside, not outside. Thus the beauty of your organization and podcast. And people were really, really struggling with anxiety, with depression, with hopelessness. You know, is the world going to end? It got really bleak at times, and people were grieving and afraid. And what came about as a result of that, through therapy, the confluence of a number of books, podcasts, and other resources, was caregivers tried to respond to that. In the arc of what was happening at that time in history, was us learning about neuroscience, learning about. People might have heard the book called the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van der Kolk, perennial now New York Times bestseller. That book and so many others began to talk about how we begin to disconnect from our senses and our body in the way that I talked about how infants are completely embodied and sensory. The older we get and the more we focus on our left brain and on goals and trying to make life work, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, the more disconnected we get from our body. So embodiment begins with connecting to our own bodies. And this has now become almost a joke in my circles. Like, people will say, don't ask me what I'm feeling in my body, because therapists always ask that. In your session. Right. Take A deep breath scan what's happening in your body. And people who are not therapists or theologians, like Dr. Arthur Brooks will be talking about that. But it's a kind of what we call somatic awareness. At any given time, if somebody is flying off the handle at their kid and then later beating themselves up that they're a bad parent, a really easy tool would be to say afterwards, begin to say, huh, what was going on inside of me? Oh, my chest was tightening, my jaw was clenching. And in addition to doing things like counting to 10, if you think of your nervous system as an elevator, and level one is, I'm calm, I'm present. As that elevator starts to rise up to level 10, when you cross a threshold, probably five or six, you're going to be likely to take the distress, the anxiety, the turmoil that's going on inside of you and then to vent that or place that onto someone else. There's a phrase that is used over and over again by a Franciscan priest who said that our own pain that's not transformed is pain that will become transmitted. Hurting people, hurt people, stressed people stress other people out. And then that creates potentially a generational cycle that goes around and around and around and affects our nervous systems. And the answer to all this is attachment, connection. And then this idea that the ruptures and the mistakes and the wounds that we cause to our children are not actually the problem, it's the lack of repair around that rupture.
- [39:13]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
Something I didn't fully realize until we had a big family was just how much mental energy goes into simply keeping everyone on the same page. Who's driving where, what day, something is happening, who still needs to do chores, what's for dinner. It can feel like a full time job, just managing the logistics of family life. And before Skylight, honestly, a lot of that lived in my head. What I love about the Skylight Calendar is that it gets everything out of your brain and into one shared place the whole family can actually see. It syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook and more. And I love being able to switch between daily, weekly or monthly views, depending on what we need that week. And the tasks feature has been so helpful for our kids routines and chores and responsibilities. It helps build independence in a way that feels positive instead of stressful. You can even color code each family member, manage grocery lists and eliminate that classic nobody told me response. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. And honestly, anything that reduces stress and creates more peace in the home is worth paying attention to and your happiness is Skylight's happiness. So if in four months you are not 100 thrilled with your purchase, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendars by going to myskylight.com 1000hours go to myskylight.com 1000 hours for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I G-H-T.com 1000hours summer has a way of simplifying things for me. I naturally start reaching for lighter fabrics, fewer pieces and clothes that just feel easy to live in. And that's one of the reasons I've become such a fan of Quints. They really do such a good job of balancing quality, comfort and simplicity. Everything feels elevated without feeling overly precious. Their pieces are made with premium materials like breathable European linen, organic cotton and washable silk. But the pricing is what always surprises me because it's so much more reasonable than you'd expect. Quinta has beautiful linen pants, dresses and tops starting at just $32, and their denim is unbelievably soft. I've also been wearing one of their organic cotton sweaters on repeat during cool summer mornings and evenings. But what makes me continue to support Quince is honestly the company itself. They work directly with ethical factories, skip the middlemen and focus on making really high quality essentials accessible instead of chasing luxury markups. I just really admire that model. And now I keep finding myself shopping beyond clothing too. Bedding, kitchen items, travel pieces. They've created this whole ecosystem of elevated everyday essentials that still feel grounded and practical. My Quince crossbody bag has become something I carry almost daily this summer because it literally works with everything and feels so well made. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside one of the things homeschool families understand really well is that learning doesn't only happen at a desk. Summer often looks different every single week. Travel, camps, time, outside, family visits, all of it. And sometimes you just need tools that move with your actual life. That's what makes something like Ixl so appealing during the summer months. It gives families a flexible way to keep learning, momentum Going without needing rigid schedules or complicated planning. IXL is an award winning online learning platform with interactive practice in math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged, and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out to me is how adaptable it is whether a child wants to review concepts from last year, stay sharp over the summer, or build confidence in a subject that's been challenging. IXL adjusts to their pace. And because everything is organized by grade and topic, it's easy for families to jump in wherever they are, even during busy summer weeks. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
- [43:12]
Michael John Cusick
And the research is very clear that we can have ruptures with our children or in any relationship. And what will actually strengthen and build not only attachment, but the potential for that relationship to flourish is that ability to repair to, in the case of a parent and a child, to kneel down and to humbly apologize and say, daddy was wrong, I really blew up and that's not okay. And that will actually build trust more than the wound or the rupture will cause mistrust and distance.
- [43:44]
Jenny Yurch
What a great message. And, and then that goes back to
- [43:47]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
what we talked about at the very
- [43:48]
Jenny Yurch
beginning, that attachment is helpful. It's a protective measure, I think, against all of these things that are so addictive that are out there Today I read a book by this man. It just came out. His name is Dr.
- [43:59]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
I think he's Dr.
- [44:00]
Jenny Yurch
I'm not totally sure. Kelly Flanagan and the book called the Road Less triggered. It's.
- [44:04]
Michael John Cusick
I just got that book. I just got that book and it's
- [44:07]
Jenny Yurch
about being closed hearted and, and you feel it. It was a great book because I now I'm like the example I gave I is that my husband helps with the tech, the tech side of the podcast and he, I messed up on two on two, like back to back. It was like one week in the next and I lost the interviews and you know, you know, when you have a podcast, I'm like, are you sure it works? You know, and then I'm like my, I'm becoming closed hearted and I can feel it. And, and, and that embodiment actually helped. You know, it helps, it helps you to kind of sort your way through it and not maybe blow up as much as you normally would and realize that, you know, it's not a life or death situation. So I love that you talk about that in this book, Sacred Attachment, about the embodiment. And then you, you know, you brought up earlier about being known. And specific thing that you talk about is responding. So as adults, teachers, caregivers, parents, grandparents, we wield immense power and how we respond to the invitations that come in from our kids. And you know, ideally we would respond well and so that they don't feel shame for wanting to be known because. And I love these examples that you gave in the book. There is hope in being known. That's what you talk about, which is counterintuitive. Right. Like, like intuitively kind of, or I guess, I don't know, like logically you'd be like, well, like when you were standing in church and you're like, I'm singing this song. It's great that nobody knows what's really going on. Right. Like that's sort of what you would logically think. But you're saying, no, there's hope in being known because when you are known and are able to heal from your traumas, that also grows your capacity for attachment. So I loved the story about the credit card debt.
- [45:59]
Michael John Cusick
Yes.
- [45:59]
Jenny Yurch
Can you talk about that one? And then how your friend responded and how it wasn't what you were expecting and it really gives, it shows, it really portrays that this would grow your attachment and help with healing.
- [46:16]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah. So to start, you said so many good things, including Kelly Flanagan's book about the one about being triggered and especially the closed heartedness. We go from connection to protection. And that protection is that we close our heart. And again, that's not a moral issue. That's not that a person is hard hearted. It's the body keeping score. It's the body doing what it's supposed to do when it feels threatened. And the reason for the threat is not that in this case your husband is a bad person and fundamentally trustworthy, it's that that probably ties into things for you like it does for me about dependability and can we rely on other people and therefore do you have to be self sufficient and should you just do it yourself? I mean, these are all conversations I have in my head. And so this idea of being known is really around vulnerability. Vulnerability again is meant to be a blessing. Brene Brown has this famous TED talk, one of the most famous TED talks of all, called the Power of Vulnerability. And this is unfortunately an idea that the Christian tradition has lost is that we have become a religion of power over, as opposed to power under and being vulnerable. And when a parent becomes vulnerable with their child, that's one of the greatest things that they can do. And I'm talking about age appropriate relationship specific. So a parent should not be talking about their marriage with the child or anything like that, but saying, yeah, mommy or daddy has really had a hard day and I've been kind of grumpy lately. That's a gift to that child because that child says, oh, if this grownup who takes care of me can be like that and connect their mood to their hard day, maybe I can be who I am and show up in this family and in my life with all of my limitations and vulnerabilities and struggles and bad mood. And maybe as a little boy when I was, you know, 10 years old and stealing food out of the pantry and hiding it under my mattress so that I could medicate emotionally, that was not anything I ever dared talk about. But if someone had come to me and said, hey, back then, I would have been, Mikey, I found this food under your bed. And rather than even getting in an intellectual conversation, I think, like, if that were me today finding my child, I might invite them into the room and say, because what I hid were nestle morsel toll house chocolate chips. Hey, let's split these up. You have 10 and I'll have 10. Let's just have a treat right now instead of going, oh my gosh, you're hiding this food. And don't you know that we have to pay for this and it's not okay to steal and blah, blah, blah, to actually engage with that child in a way that you get it and you understand. And then that child might be saying, I did this thing that's not acceptable in this family and I'm hiding and I feel shame. But wow, somebody met me in that space. And that's what all of us long for. And that's why I wrote a chapter about being known. Because we're terrified to be known. And yet it's one of the deepest longings of our heart to be known for who we really are. I mean, that's why people fall in love. Wow. This person sees me and knows me and they still want to be with me. And then, of course, in a relationship, we progressively reveal more and more of ourself and the ideal is that that person stays there as well.
- [49:41]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, yes. And I, and what I love about your book and, and Kelly Flanagan does something similar. They, you know, you both give really honest examples. Kelly's example was that his. His. He really likes. Let me see if I can get it right. He really likes chocolate chip bagels with plain cream cheese. And his wife got him a plain bagel with chocolate chip cream cheese. I might have gotten that back backwards. And he was, like, so mad about it. And I was like, it's such a great example. I just read a book by Gretchen Rubin where she was like, I would give my kidney to my husband, but if he asked me to stop by the store to get him shaving cream, I'm super annoyed. You know, like, specific examples where you're like, oh, it's so relatable. So you're talking about this example in this book. You gave a couple. You gave the one about when you were hiking with Ian and talking about your weight.
- [50:30]
Podcast Sponsor/Host Voiceover
You brought that up a little bit
- [50:31]
Jenny Yurch
earlier so people can read that one in the book. But another example you gave was the one about the credit card. And, you know, you say that this is embarrassing, like this credit card debt story. Let's see. I'm trying to find it. Okay, let's return for a moment to the friend with whom I shared my credit card debt. The story I told myself was that he was horrified that I was despicable. The most irresponsible person in the world. In fact, what happened was that moments after sharing, Peter literally put his hand on my shoulder and looked me in the eyes and said. I was like, oh, I wasn't expecting this. I can't imagine how hard it was to share that with me. What a response.
- [51:10]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, Yeah. I get emotional as I. As I hear you read that story, because I wrote that, but I've never had anybody read it back to me. And so I was in his basement in New Jersey. I've known this man since high school. He's far more economically and financially successful than me, so there was an extra level of shame. And yet he's one of my two best friends. And my left brain knew that he would respond in a. In a great manner. My right brain and my nervous system was like, this friendship's over. I'm going to be so exposed. So shamed. And when he responded, not just not being negative and shaming, but when he responded by actually acknowledging how difficult it must have been, it was like a weight was lifted off of me, and I exhaled. And when I was talking with him, sharing about this debt, and it was around $25,000, you know, so it wasn't hundreds of thousands, but it wasn't Just something that I could take care of right away and pay off. My face was literally red from Shane. My heart was beating out of my chest. And his response and his hand on my shoulder, it just. It just immediately dissolved all of that. I went from feeling threatened based on what I had done and how I perceived I had screwed up to feeling safe. And there were the four S's playing out again. I think I was probably 55 years old when that happened, but I was seen. And instead of being seen in him running out of the room and saying, I'm never going to talk to you again, he actually soothed me by putting his hand on my shoulder by saying those words. Wow, that was so hard to share. He created safety by going, I can help you with this. Not by writing a check. We're going to get through this. You're going to get through this. You're not bad. And he knew some of my learning disabilities and the fact that I'm on the spectrum. And he helped me. He helped create a plan. And then ultimately that relationship became more secure where both of us have moments where we have been there for one another in some of our worst and most shameful moments. And that is what a secure attachment is.
- [53:18]
Jenny Yurch
What a great example, Michael.
- [53:20]
Michael John Cusick
Wow.
- [53:20]
Jenny Yurch
And there's a lot of examples in the book that really help you understand it better, and it really helps. It personifies the exam. Like, this example shows you that healing from trauma and being known will grow your capacity for attachment. It will improve your relationships. And that's a really good idea of a response. If someone shares something really big with you, and your first response might be to, like, jump for advice or to judge them, but to say, I can't imagine how hard it was for you to share that with me. So you talk in this book also about imagination. So the book is called Sacred Attachment. Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in Divine Love. So you talk a lot about, like we've talked about before, imagination, the left brain, the right brain. Even in the back, you talked about artists. Like, these are artists whose imaginations have helped to retain. Restore my sanity. Talk about beauty and how important beauty is so people can find those things in this book. And I don't want to miss the nun thing, okay. Because I actually had not heard of this. Okay. This sets up the whole premise of the book and then as a thread throughout it where it's like an ambush of love, you know, an invitation to be held in loving connection. But a very. I think I might be wrong, but a pretty unique situation where you had an aunt that you still had relationship with your family? Did, who's called. What's a cloistered nun?
- [54:48]
Michael John Cusick
A cloistered Carmelite nun, yes. They're kind of the Navy seals of the Catholic monastic clergy.
- [54:55]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, so can you tell the story? You kick the book off with this, and then it pops up here and there throughout the rest of the book. But you. They're behind bars.
- [55:03]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah, yeah. So the cloistered nuns go back to the 13th century, even earlier than that. But the Carmelites were in the tradition of Saint Teresa of Avila, Teresa of Lisu, John of the Cross. They were men and women Carmelites. But the nuns took vows of chastity, therefore, celibacy, poverty, obedience, and solitude. And so what they did was they would go into a convent or a monastery and they would take a vow to not have contact with the outside people. And so my aunt, who died after spending 53 years behind the cloister, and we could go visit her. But up until around the late 60s, there were literal bars between the visitors and the nuns. And, you know, there's a biblical phrase where St. Paul says that he is a slave for Christ. And so there's actually something symbolic about just withdrawing out of dedication. But the bars were called the grid. They were like waffles, kind of crosshatch. Not. Not prison bars. And when we would visit, you could put your hand through, but there was no actual hugging because you couldn't reach that far through. And in the corner of the room there was a cabinet. And on this particular day, I was 4 years old, and this happened to be the same year that my uncle began to sexually abuse me. My siblings and I were sitting over in the corner beneath that cabinet. And I don't know why he did this, but my brother lifted me up as a four year old, put me in the cabinet, and then inside the cabinet there was a lazy Susan that would spin around and it was like a giant can of Campbell's soup or a garbage can sized thing. And you could put gifts and food and things like that and spin it around to the other side. Well, my brother puts me in this, and I'm spinning and spinning and spinning and getting nauseous and dizzy and. And basically finally it stops. And instead of the door opening and it's my brother, I'm on the wrong side of the grid, and there's my aunt, Sister Anne of Jesus, who grabs me, and there are 16 other nuns there. And they all came around and hugged me. These women were behind bars, literally, for God, cloistered They were never going to have their own children. They had very little contact. So they're basically just ambushing me with, with, with love. And it was really an overwhelming positive experience. And then they pushed the chairs out of the way. I'm on the wrong side of the bars thinking that the Pope himself or some priest or my parents were going to yell at me and catch me and, you know, I'm going to get found out. They pushed the chairs aside and we began to, to dance and sing and play Ring around the Rosie, literally. And as I was writing this book, I thought I was making this up, like, how could this have happened? So I called up one of the five living sisters, Sister Bernadette from Slovakia, and I said, did this happen? She goes, oh, I remember that very well. And she's one of the nuns that would just like squeeze the stuffing out of me, as we used to say to our kids. And that was a moment that provided an embodied imprint of what loving, safe attachment is. And I believe that God allowed that to happen then in these very unusual circumstances, so that I would always have that imprint as I move through the rest of my life and as I questioned whether I could actually trust that love was there. And that whole story is a metaphor because we all have life as we know it, where we're oriented to, okay, life's pretty good right now. But then suddenly we're disoriented and that's like the spinning in the cabinet. We don't know up from down. We feel nauseous emotionally and physically. But then something happens invariably where a door opens and we encounter loving presence, that quite frankly is a surprise. We encounter safety, we encounter being seen and soothed and ultimately a sense of well being and security that can get internalized from the outside in.
- [59:01]
Jenny Yurch
What a response, Michael. Yeah, because as a kid you think you're going to get in trouble and you're kind of thrown off, right? You say you're spinning, you're disoriented and you say, but when the door opened. When the door opens, we discover love has us. What a story. What a unique, unique story. And what a book. Sacred Attachment, Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in Divine Love. People can also check out restoring the soul.com for your non profit, for intensive counseling and then also your own podcast. So I'll make sure I'll put all the links in the show notes. Michael, thanks for saying yes. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [59:38]
Michael John Cusick
Oh, great question. Fishing with my dad. And my brother and friends. I lived in Cleveland, Ohio, and we had the Cuyahoga River. We didn't catch a lot of fish, but, boy, we had just fun being together and being outside on those summer and fall and spring days.
- [59:56]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah, that's a national park. Now. I don't know if it always has been, but it's like the only national park out this way, so people talk about that one a lot. Michael, thank you so much. Can you let people know where they can find you?
- [60:08]
Michael John Cusick
Yeah. First, I want to say, Ginny, that you are a great interviewer. I appreciate your vivaciousness, but most of all, just thank you. I'm honored that you went so deep into the book. And oftentimes people will interview me and they're reading kind of the publicity questions, but really, really a fun, fun conversation. Thank you. So people can find out about me@michaeljohnkusik.com or restoringthesoul.com and I'm just so thankful for what you're doing and for your organization.
- [60:36]
Jenny Yurch
Thank you.