← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:01]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
This episode is sponsored by Fora Travel. I've always been the person people come to for travel advice, whether it's planning a camping trip in Northern Michigan, figuring out how to travel well with kids across the country, or finding experiences that actually help families connect instead of just filling an itinerary. I genuinely have loved helping people create meaningful adventures, and I know a lot of you listening are probably that person too. The friend who plans the trip, the one who researches the details. The one person people trust to find the hidden gems and make everything run smoothly. I Fora is built for people exactly like that. Fora is a modern travel agency that helps people build their own travel business, no matter what stage of life they're in. You don't need prior experience because Fora gives you the training, technology and support to help you get started. And you're joining a community of people who are building businesses centered around experiences, relationships, and helping others travel well. A lot of advisors begin simply by helping people they already know and grow naturally from there. What I also appreciate is that there are no sales quotas or minimums. You can build this at a pace that works for your life and your family. Your next act starts here. Become a for adviser today at foratravel.com 1000hours that's F O R A travel.com 1000hours and make sure you tell them we sent you for travel.com 1000hours welcome
- [01:16]
Jenny Ur
to the 1000hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ur and the founder of 1000hours Outside and it is in honor of a lifetime that Dr. Dan Siegel is here. Welcome.
- [01:27]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Thank you Jenny. Thank you for having me.
- [01:29]
Jenny Ur
I am thrilled about this. I've been a fan for such a long time. I have five of your books right here. So the five that I have here are mindsight, this new science of personal transformation. I have Parenting from the Inside Out, How a deeper self understanding can help you raise children who thrive. I have the power of showing up. I have the yes Brain, which is about cultivating courage, curiosity and resilience. And I also have Brainstorm, which is about adolescence. And I know people know you from the whole brainchild. You have so many books. This is just a smattering. People can find the whole list@doctor dan seagull.com and then also take courses there. You have the Mind Institute. You received your medical degree from Harvard, postgrad medical education at UCL with UCLA with training in pediatrics and child, adolescent and adult Psychiatry and also lectured for the King of Thailand. So so thank you for and Pope John Paul II and the Dalai Lama in Google University and London's Royal Society of Art. Huge congrats on all your life success.
- [02:32]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you very much.
- [02:35]
Jenny Ur
It's a lot. So could you give us a little bit of the backstory? Because you talk in this book of mindset about how you had dropped out for a little bit and you were talking about at the very beginning that there was no room for emotion, that they would say things like, there's no time for tears. You have to get over your feelings. Sometimes patients just die. Your job is to learn and you have to deal with the facts. Can you talk about the time when you stepped away from it but then came back?
- [03:02]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah, yeah. And I'm actually walking on a walking desk. So the step away from it is a good analogy to my walking. You know, I loved science when I was a kid, and when I went to college, I studied biochemistry to try to figure out the deepest structures of life forms and stuff. So when I went to medical school, I thought it would be a beautiful place to take my love of science and people and just understanding life, to try to promote more life. And, you know, I, I enjoyed the, the basic science classes, but when I got into the clinical work, my teachers were so unempathic with, with the patients that it really was painful to see. And these different experiences I had were just telling me I didn't want to become a physician if it meant being like my professors who are my role models, you know.
- [03:58]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
Right.
- [03:59]
Dr. Dan Siegel
So I decided that instead of becoming like them, I'd go on a journey to figure out, you know, who I was supposed to be. Because I certainly didn't want to be becoming like those people. We're so robotic and so, you know, just into facts and not feelings, not honoring the inner reality of our lives. Anyway, so I went on a journey, which I certainly talked to you about. But when that, you know, I was going to be a basic. I was going to be either a salmon fisherman or a dancer. And when I got into a dance troupe and they told me my knees weren't straight enough, then I realized I probably should become a choreographer. But then when I started doing work related to choreography, I didn't really care how dance looked. I really cared about how it felt. So then I realized I starved to death as a choreographer. And then I just got the idea, because I was reading a lot about, you know, the mind and all these kinds of things, that maybe I could have a career looking at the reality of the mind that seemed to be absent in medicine. So I decided to go back to the school I started with. And it was a research institution. It is. And so I just sort of had this word. I made up mindsight that I would use this skill of seeing the mind of patients, even if my professors didn't, or of myself or my colleagues, even if, you know, the teachers weren't. And it was almost like being an anthropologist in a different culture that you could just see the absence of empathy and its negative impact on how they taught or how they treated patients. So I kind of used it as an anti role model and just thought, okay, I will get through this and I will do my best, you know, as a student. So I did fine. And. But at the same time, this other track was I was studying how not to be. Yeah. And so it was useful that way. And I thought I was going to go into psychiatry, but where I was in school, there was a lot of fighting about this approach to psychiatry. That approach. And I love the patients in psychiatry, but I didn't really like the psychiatrist, really. So I loved the pediatricians and I love working with kids. So I said, okay, that's okay, I'll become a pediatrician. I never really thought about much about being a psychiatrist. So I went into pediatrics to start, but then when I was in pediatrics, I. I realized my true love was about, you know, working with people within their mental lives and all the complexity and intricacy of it. And so I kind of devoted my life to just showing that the mind is real and we could do a deeper understanding, dive into the mind than perhaps we had done up to that point. And so it's been an amazing, you know, third of a century of being on that. That journey to this very day.
- [07:04]
Jenny Ur
You sure have done it. I have read countless books, countless, that reference you, you know, Dr. Dan Siegel. In fact, just yesterday I talked to a man, his name was Michael John Cusick. He wrote a book called Sacred Attachment. And I felt like the book, the book was an ode to you and you came up in it so much so, you know, just book after book. And then obviously you have your own stack here. Pioneer in the field of interpersonal neurobiology. So I would love to talk about mind mainly and weave in some of these other ones, especially because you talk so much about children and adolescents, like the yes brain and approaching the world in that way and the beautifulness of adolescence. You know, you talk and brainstorm about how, gosh, if we could keep some of these amazing qualities that adolescents have, it actually would Help us throughout our life. So. So I want to say that Mindsight, I love the way that you wrote that book because it's, it's based off of people's stories, so it really helps you understand the concepts. So in Mindset, you're talking about a mom who's been in an, in an automobile accident or something. There was something, there was damage to her brain. And you talk and in her story about this part, and then in this younger man, Jonathan, this middle prefrontal cortex. The middle prefrontal cortex. Now I've heard of the prefrontal cortex, right, which people talk about executive function, you know, can you do non preferred, non stimulating tasks, but the middle. I've never heard of the middle prefrontal cortex instead, until I read your book Mindsight. So it does nine incredible things. So I would love for you to talk about what that does and then the fact that we can grow it. So you were talking about this Jonathan, and he was just kind of ragey, you know, he didn't have control of his emotions. And so he would actually grow the fibers. And you can grow all the way. Like you have someone in the book that's 92 and they're still growing their brain as well. So I would love to focus on this growth of the middle prefrontal cortex because the functions are incredibly important. You say they're essential for well being.
- [09:10]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah. Well, this is the amazing thing, how this journey kind of started. I mean, I, you know, when I was in training, it was in the 1980s and we didn't know much about the brain. We didn't have the technology to look into the functioning of the brain like we would in the 90s, which became called the decade of the brain. But I was fascinated with just, you know, I'm a trained in biology and I'm a physician, so I'm, you know, I love studies about the body. So even as I was starting my training as a psychotherapist, I was really keeping a track of the research on physiological aspects of health and specifically neurological aspects of mental functioning that were just emerging. So there were different things that came up about understanding memory systems in the brain and what I was experiencing, working with veterans who had post traumatic stress disorder. So around the same time, you know, I had this, this patient come in who was a little kid, she was seven, and she wasn't speaking in school. So the issue was like, why is she speaking at home and not speaking at school? It's called selective mutism. So I started seeing her and then one day this ball goes behind the couch. We're playing catch. And there's a video player. We used to have video players in those days, you know. And she got all excited, so I said, oh, do you have a video you want to show me? And she nodded her head, but she didn't say anything. The next week, she brought in a video. We put it in and we watched it together. And there was a picture of her mom at a birthday party. And it was this beautiful, joyful connection between a mother and a daughter. And for the first time, this patient, you know, she speaks to me and she says, that's what my mom used to be like. And the woman in the waiting room who bring her daughter to me for the therapy was not like this woman in the video. She looked physically the same, Same human being, but something was different. And it turned out that the mom had had a car accident before this patient stopped speaking. And the story that unfolded was essentially that she was going to get some milk. She needed some milk for the house. She didn't put on her seatbelt. A person crashed into her head, on her head, went into the steering wheel. And it really gave her this severe trauma to her forehead where you can see that. And, you know, and she had lost these things that she used to have. She was incredibly empathic. Before she lost her empathy. She was incredibly insightful. Before she lost her insight, she was very chill and could go along with different things. Now she's very reactive and lost what I called. Came to call response flexibility. She couldn't be flexible in how she responded. Yeah, you know, she couldn't regulate her emotions. She. Her body would get all agitated. She couldn't regulate all these things that I would basically go to the library. In those days, you had to go to the library. There was no Internet like we have today. But I went to the library to look up when the neurosurgeons gave me her scan as part of my file for the daughter. And I took the scans to the library. So I had these parts of the brain that were damaged from the steering wheel. No one had named it, but it was certain regions of the. The part right behind the forehead is called the prefrontal cortex, but it was the middle area of it. And then there's another area that's sort of midline this way, called the anterior cingulate. Some people call it part of the prefrontal cortex, but it. It was really the middle ish area, whereas the sides was more about, like, paying attention. And what are called executive functions, these were different Functions that had to do with deep connections to your body and your emotions and the social life you had. So you don't even need to use the word middle. You could just say prefrontal. I just use the word middle because this is where her accident was, this middle part. So I just made up the term. That's why you don't see it anywhere. There is an area called the medial prefrontal cortex, but the medial is just a part of the areas that I include under the middle prefrontal, their medial prefrontal, their ventral lateral, for those who want to know all these names. And they're the. The anterior cingulate. So these three are very close to each other in the middle, either middle this way or middle this way. So when you put those three together as part of the middle in quotes, middle prefrontal cortex, you get these nine functions. And what became super fascinating about it was those nine functions we learned later were what mindfulness practice develops. And those nine functions also are what I'm a researcher in attachment. What secure parent child relationships cultivate in the child's brain is they actually develop these. That we learned that later on. But once you put all these together in the Mindsight book, what I just said, for me as a young therapist, for me to help the family, because I ended up being the family therapist, I could show them the pictures of the brain and the kids. There was. My kid was a. A younger one, but the older one was an adolescent girl. She would say, oh, my mom doesn't love me. My mom doesn't love me. But what I was able to show on the scans was that this was an area of the brain that would allow her to be able to be empathic and kind and caring. And now she wasn't able to do that. Not because she didn't have that in her, but she couldn't express it. And the other thing that happened that was mind blowing. And I think I say this in the book. I'll never forget this session when I said to her, when I was just with her and her husband, with actually her individual therapist, you know, what's it like for you since this accident? And there's this pause, and in a very flat kind of way, she says, well, I guess if I had to summarize it in a word, I guess I would say I've lost my soul. And it gives me the chills even to say it now. But I'm telling you, when, when she said that then Jenny, it was like the therapist and I kind of looked at Each other. The husband looked at me, and it was like, wow. You know, this is the essence of who she was. And it's another area of the brain that actually observes our personality characteristics, interestingly. And that was preserved in her brain. I looked it up later. I said, how can someone lose a soul but have enough awareness to know they've lost? How does that happen? But actually, in looking at the brain circuitry, you'll find there's an area when you look at her scans that was totally preserved, where she can observe. Not so much for an insightful way, but kind of almost like a factual observation. This is just the fact of the matter. This person called me has no soul. It's wild. But anyway, that was a preserved area. So this was a. You know, as sad and sad as that story was, number one, it helped the family grieve that they had this person physically present still. But the mom they knew was gone. And unfortunately, there was such severe damage, she never came back. So. But the kids went on to do fine. And, in fact, this kid became my intern later on, and she was doing great. You know, when she was older, she came to work for me, and she was resilient and strong because we could make sense of this horrible loss that she went through.
- [16:46]
Jenny Ur
Yes. And that is one of the things that you talk about, is making sense of your life, the coherent narrative. So that's in the. Yes. Brain. People want to read that book. So this is obviously a more extreme case where you're talking about this, These nine functions that are happening in the prefrontal cortex. She's had actual damage. But this is the part of the brain that you want to know about if you are prone to flipping your lid.
- [17:14]
Dr. Dan Siegel
That's right.
- [17:15]
Jenny Ur
Right. So as a parent and, you know, you have this book, Parenting from the Inside out, nobody wants to flip their lid. You know, everyone's wants to, you know, be in this loving relationship with their kids and their family, but it happens. And you're such an incredible writer, Dr. Siegel. So you have this incredibly funny story.
- [17:33]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
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- [21:19]
Jenny Ur
best price in mindsight. About the crepes. Oh my God, I laughed so hard. And the way that you destroyed described it. So can you talk about the crepe story and how your kids, like they play chess with each other and then as a parent you're like, oh, if I would have just bought the extra crepe. But I didn't. And now I feel like I'm flipping my lid and you talk about how then these functions, these nine functions, they melt down.
- [21:48]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah, well, that's right. So. So that was in the 90s, figuring out the middle prefrontal cortex business. But then I noticed in myself as a dad, because I now have kids in their 30s, but back then they were little young kids, things would push my buttons and I would act like a totally different person. I don't know if you've ever experienced that, Jenny, but you know, so, so I said, what is going on? It's like I'm flipping my lid, you know. And then I had this hand model of the brain that I had used with that patient later patients, you know, to explain to them about the brain. So the middle prefrontal areas would be like your middle two fingernails and they integrate literally what comes up from the body, what goes into the deepest part of the brain, the brain stem, what goes to the emotional learning brain, the limbic brain, with the reflective brain, the cortex, and even with the Social world. So what happens when this is intact is it brings all these different things together into a functional whole.
- [22:48]
Sponsor Voiceover
And.
- [22:48]
Dr. Dan Siegel
And then you develop harmony and flexibility, and you have a sense of vitality. But flipping your lid is just a metaphor of, you know, things popping open like that. The skull doesn't move, but the flipping your lid is where this becomes disintegrated. So all that beautiful stuff of flexibility, insight, empathy, kindness, compassion, regulating yourself, being this, you know, present person, that can all go out the window when this area stops integrating all these into a functional whole. And they're all running on their own steam. So it's in what's called an integrative area of the brain. So it isn't that you destroy it, it's just that it can become, in that moment, disabled, dysfunctional, disconnected, disintegrated. All those things being the same thing. And you can just remember that with flipping your lid. So when we flip our lids as people in relationships, certainly parents, in connection with our kids, we gotta realize we've done that and get the awareness to go, whoa, I gotta get some water. I've gotta, you know, go for a walk outside. My thousand hours outside. I gotta get some fresh air. Whatever I need to do to bring myself back into an integrated state. And in that particular story, I don't know if you want me to tell that story, but it was. It was a pretty severe flipping of the lid that I did. And when I ultimately showed that chapter to my kids, I'll never forget, we were. I was teaching in Greece and finishing the final edits. And so I said, you really better read this final version. Make sure it's right. They read it and they go, dad, yeah, this is very accurate. They go, but we have a question for you. I said, what? I said, what's your question? They go, why would you want to show the world what a jerk you can be? And I said, perfect. That's what I wanted to show. Because even if you write books on this, because I had already written parenting set out, you know, I said, anyone can flip your lid. And the idea is repair. You know, like Ed Tronic, the beautiful researcher shows, you know, you want to make a repair, there's no such thing as perfect parenting. There's just being present for the humanity that we all can have hot buttons and flip your lid and then make a repair, go back in a reliable and hopefully rapid way to reconnect and make a repair. Which means saying you're sorry, hearing what the experience was of your kids and, you know, and trying to make sense of what happened as best you can.
- [25:23]
Jenny Ur
I just want to read a slight bit of it because it's so funny. It's so relatable. Dr. Siegel. So, you know, you've got your two kids, and. And. And your son wants to get a crepe. This is so relatable. But your daughter says, I'm not hungry. And then you're. Then finally the crepe comes, and they're
- [25:39]
Dr. Dan Siegel
14 and 9, just to give you contact.
- [25:42]
Jenny Ur
Yeah, it smells amazing. And then your daughter, which is, like, so typical, is like, well, I just. Could I just have a little bite? I don't want a whole one. Can I have a little bite of yours? And so then you say. Then you have to get involved, and you say, why don't you just give her a small piece so she can see how it tastes? And I urged. He looked at me at his crepe. And then with a sigh, he gave in, you know, and then you say, using his knife like a scalpel, he extracted the smallest piece of crepe you can imagine, one you'd almost need tweezers to pick up. Under other circumstances, I might have laughed and seen this as a creative sibling chess move. My daughter took the specimen, placed it on her napkin, and said that it was too small. Another great move. You know, you say, the chess match was on full force. So then you say, now I was beginning to boil. Can you give her a real piece, One that you can actually see? You know, so then she complains that it's the burned part. This is just so relatable. And then you say, I'm about to explode. But can you. Can you talk about a couple things there? Because you go on to say, that's all.
- [26:55]
Dr. Dan Siegel
That's all very accurate.
- [26:57]
Jenny Ur
It's just such great storytelling, and it's funny, and I think so. I mean, any parent, if you got two kids at home or three kids, you know, you have these things that happen. But there are a couple of things that really stuck out with me in this story. First of all, it's like you. You know, you're having a hard time coming out of it. And that's something that was understandable. You're in the moment, you become disintegrated. You're having a hard time coming out of it, even when you get home. And what you did was you went roller skating outside with your daughter. And there was another story in this book, mindset about a young man named Jonathan, and he was having a hard time also calming the storm. Inside is the Words that you use. He's got this roller coaster mind, and he did similar things, like you would talk about. He would run or bike or walk, something rhythmic. So there was that piece of it, and then there was also the piece. So I would love for you to talk about that. Like, you took some time, you did something physical. It was rhythmic, and then you remembered or you connected it to when you were a young child and felt left out by your older brother. And so it was maybe bigger emotions coming from your own childhood experience relating to this thing going on with your own kids and sort of realizing the connection there.
- [28:16]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we were rollerblading just a few blocks that I'm still in the same house. We were rolling a few blocks. And then I just realized that. So I. My daughter is a very insightful and empathic person, like my son is, too. And so she says, you know, what was going on? I said, you know, now that I think about it, you know, when I was a kid and I was the younger sibling, just like she's the younger sibling, you know, I promised myself I would always stand up for the younger sibling, you know, which my parents never did with me, ever. So there was a situation of the crepe. And so I was trying to do this, and the thing that, I mean, got me really upset in the crepe shop. But when we got in the car and I said to him, because he had. His. His sister had gone to the doctor that morning and gave him some stickers she got from the doctor's office that she got for him to put on his guitar case. So I said, well, your sister did this, you know, what would you do if you were, as a friend of yours at the crepe shop and the friend wanted to try some? He'd go, I would give her half. And that just made me go nuts. And I said, I'm taking your guitar away. It's my guitar from when I was a kid. Now he's, you know, Alex Siegel. You can listen to him. He's a musician, and you can hear all this stuff. But, you know, it's like, I'm gonna take your guitar case away. Your guitar, you know, she gave you a sticker for your dogs, going, I was losing my mind. I couldn't believe he couldn't be forced, giving his sister half that. All that kind of stuff. Anyway, so I was really in an altered state. I really was. And the repair that we engaged in, which I talk about in the book, was really the most important in some ways, the most Important part of the journey was, you know, afterwards we got together as a family and people could say what they felt without me defending myself. I could explain myself, but is it different from defending myself? And everyone could say what they experienced in the rollerblading part. My daughter says to me when I figured this out that, oh, I was working through some stuff from my childhood about me being the little sibling who was never defended by his parents. She said, well, that makes sense, but why don't you work that out on your own time?
- [30:29]
Jenny Ur
What a kid.
- [30:30]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Which was very smart. She still gives me advice.
- [30:33]
Jenny Ur
She's like 9 years old.
- [30:36]
Dr. Dan Siegel
I know now she's 32, but she's. Now she gives me advice like that. It's also wonderful. But yeah, so you have to be open as a parent. Literally. Again, there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Just being present and have everything be your teacher.
- [30:52]
Jenny Ur
So I want to read this. People definitely should read the book because it really helps you to understand yourself. So you talk about the low road state. When we flip our lids, we become disintegrated.
- [31:02]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
Here's what you lose.
- [31:03]
Jenny Ur
You lose bodily regulation. You lose attuned communication. You lose emotional balance. You wrote, I lost my equanimity somewhere between the third and fourth banterings about sharing the grape. You lose response flexibility, which is the ability to pause before responding. You feel trapped by your rising anger. There's fear modulation. And so in this case, you talked about being. That's being driven by an old fear. And so you talked. That's when you talked about when your older brother stopped playing with you, when he became a team. And then empathy. So the capacity to create mindsight images of other people's minds, insight, mental time travel, moral awareness and intuition. You say, even though paradoxically, like in your gut, you kind of feel like, oh, I should keep saying things. So you say this. This is incredibly important. Anger creates anger. And cooling off is essential before a repair process can be initiated. Even a short break can make all the difference. Then if you value your relationship and it is crucial to take the initiative and make an effort to reconnect. This is especially true for parents. But before we connect with others, we need to be sure we are connected with ourselves. And what I thought was really interesting was that in your story and in the story of Jonathan, which is a different chapter in the book, there is physicality to it. There's getting outside and taking that time to calm the body, the rhythmic physical activities. So that's just one story. And so people can understand you remember it because it's funny. And you, the story that you talked about about Leanne, she's the daughter, her mom has this brain injury. You in it, you understand through the story what you're trying to explain about the mind, and it helps it stick. It's a fantastic book. And then the other books, the concepts weave together. So we could talk then about the yes brain. Talking about children. We want them to have a resilient brain. So there's a whole book about this that you wrote with Tina Payne Bryson. I had an opportunity to interview her a bit ago. That was such a joy. Can you talk about the world that we're living in now where you say there is an over emphasis on achievement and extrinsic motivation? Parents everywhere feel overwhelmed and exhausted by a lifestyle instead of cultural values that drive them and their children relentlessly toward a very narrow definition of externally measured success. I feel like we're all feeling this today. So can you talk about helping kids develop a yes brain? Saying yes to the world? And a lot of this has to do with play, downtime, exploration, and growing that prefrontal cortex, I'm assuming, too. So you talk. I don't know. That's a really big question. Whatever part of it you want to take, that would be amazing.
- [33:48]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Well, thank you, Judy. Thank you for being on top of all these fun stories and books and stuff. You know, Tina Payne Bryson is a wonderful friend and colleague and, you know, it's great to be a co author with her. And we just did wisdom. Well, no, we did whole brainchild 2.0, which has a kind of trying to draw the wisdom of where we're at now compared to when we first wrote that book years ago. So that's something at the mindsight Institute you can tap into.
- [34:14]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
But one thing I've noticed over the years is that kids don't just want stories. They want to enter the story. They want to move, imagine, act things out and feel connected to what they're hearing. That's exactly why I was so intrigued by Once Upon a Dance. These books take storytelling to a whole new level because they combine movement, imagination, and meaningful life lessons all in one experience. So instead of kids just sitting and listening, they're twirling, leaping, pretending, and fully engaging with the story. The books were created by teacher Terrell, a former dance teacher alongside her daughter, Ballerina King. And they're filled with themes that I really appreciate as a parent. Things like perseverance, kindness, confidence, friendship, empathy, and self acceptance. And the stories are genuinely whimsical and fun. Whether your child loves unicorns, puppies, cats, or magical adventures, there's something for them. We especially loved the Dance along format in the Katina Ballerina series because it naturally gets kids up and moving instead of zoning out in front of another screen. I also love that they offer free audio, video and educator resources for families and teachers, and that this whole project gives back to charities supporting the arts, animals, people, and the planet. Swap screen time for connection. Get your kids off the couch and into the story. Jump, twirl and leap over to onceuponadance.com or find once Upon a Dance books. Wherever you buy books online, that's once upon a dance.com Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials. Pieces that feel good the moment you put them on and still look effortless. And honestly, that's why I keep coming back to Quint. What I admire about Quince is that they built a company around quality and intentionality. Instead of hype, they focus on high quality essentials. Breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk. But without the luxury markup. Everything feels elevated but still easy and practical for real life. Their 100% European linen pants, dresses and tops are beautiful for summer and many styles start at just $32. Their denim is incredibly soft and comfortable, and I've also been loving their organic cotton sweaters for those cooler summer nights around the fire or early mornings outside. And it's not just clothing anymore. Quinn's has become a destination for elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding and more. I appreciate that they care about quality across the board, not just trends. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for craftsmanship and materials, not inflated brand markup. And I genuinely respect that approach. As both a customer and a business owner, my Quince linen set has basically become my summer uniform. It's lightweight, comfortable and somehow still feels polished without trying too hard. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com SL outside this episode is sponsored by Better Help. Summer is supposed to feel relaxing, but honestly, sometimes it can feel like a lot. The kids are home, routines disappear, schedules get messy, and there's this unspoken pressure to make it magical and to say yes to every opportunity and create the perfect summer. And somewhere in the middle of all that, it's easy to lose yourself a bit. I think one of the healthiest things we can remember is that thriving doesn't mean doing everything. Sometimes it means slowing down enough to notice what's actually sustainable for you and your family. Therapy can help with that. It helps you give space to process what feels overwhelming, set healthy boundaries and gain perspective from someone who's there to just listen and support you. That's one reason I appreciate better help. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. They also make getting started simple by matching you with a therapist based on a short questionnaire. And if it's not the right fit, you, you can switch anytime. With over 30,000 therapists, more than 6 million people serve globally and an average of 4.9 out of 5 star rating across 1.7 million reviews. It's support that's helping a lot of people. You don't have to say yes to everything. This summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com 1000 hours that's better. H E L P.com 1000 hours the
- [38:12]
Dr. Dan Siegel
thing that's so interesting about extending everything we're talking about in terms of integration in this prefrontal cortex and you know, is simply that relational integration, when we really honor differences between our kids and ourselves as parents and promote deep, compassionate linkages. So that would be an integrated relationship. That integration in a relationship stimulates the growth of integration in the brain. And integration in the brain is the basis for well being. So if you're interested in the science of all that, I wrote a textbook for graduate school called the Developing Mind, now in its third edition, so you can read all the backup. Because that sounds ridiculously simple, but it's actually that simple. Integration in the brain allows you to be optimizing what's called regulation, regulating emotion and thought and attention and morality and behavior and all that kind of stuff. So optimal regulation comes from integration and neural integration is inspired, is stimulated by relational integration. So that's the key as parents. If we can figure out how to honor the difference between what we expect and who our child is, for example, in terms of their temperament and really respect that we may have our own expectations. That's cool. You're a human being. Of course you're going to have expectations. Take a deep breath and say yes. Now who is my actual child? Who is this person in front of me that I have the privilege of being on a journey as Their parent, as Khalil Gibran says, you know, these children are not ours. We're stewards of their development, but we're not owners of them. And that's a whole different attitude to say, wow, I'm going to take my stewardship really, really seriously. I'm going to be an advocate for them differentiating, you know. And so now in this modern world we're in, which does overemphasize external evidence of you being successful, rather than internal compass that drives you. When I think about my two kids now, you know what they're doing. I'm so proud of what Caroline, my wife, and I were able to negotiate because so much was happening back then in a very uncertain world, which is now even more uncertain with, you know, a lot of parents really wanted them to do this or do that and be very specific and then get all these external markers of achievement. And we always saw that as doing a disservice for our kids, that they should develop an internal compass. So no matter how the world goes, you know, like, our son was great at science and great at all these things in school, but in heart he's a musician and that's just who he is. So we really encourage him, follow your internal compass. Now, it's not a great economic choice, but in terms of him doing something that matters in life and the gift he can give to the world, it's a beautiful thing. And that's what he decided to do. And our daughter absolutely fell in love with nature and is now hiking one trail she was just on. She did the Appalachian Trail before these six month hikes. She does, but what's she doing in the meantime? She's getting her doctoral degree in environmental science and policy, you know, because she's going to take her love of nature and really work to try to protect our planet. And that's not a great economic choice, the external marker, but it has a lot of meaning, not just for her personally, but for the benefit of the world. Just like music, music is a benefit to the world. So anyway, so it isn't just that having an internal compass makes your kid, you know, just be self preoccupied. Just the opposite. You go inward and you say, what are my particular gifts that I can tune into and develop? So what I do comes from this deep, heartfelt place of meaning. And the purpose that I have in doing this is to contribute to the greater good of the world. Right? And that's what, you know, Angela Duckworth has shown, it will give you grit, you know, you'll be able to stick to it in the face of challenges. Whatever happens in economic policy or politics or, you know, what's going on in our planet, you will have this internal compass. That's what I mean by that, this grit that guides you and so you can be flexible because it's coming from within. It's not the vagaries of the changes in this volatile, uncertain world we live in. It's coming from inside. So you're able to navigate the stuff because it's an internal compass no one can take away from you.
- [42:55]
Jenny Ur
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And you talk about that in this book, the S Brain. You talk about resilience. This is one of the four key characteristics. Resilience is the ability to bounce back when life's inevitable problems and struggles arise. You wrote, equanimity doesn't mean someone is always calm. It means that they've learned to ride the rave, the waves of their emotions with skills and agility. If they tip over, they learn the skill of how to get back on and surf. Resilience is a gift we can give our kids that keeps on giving. And this is where you're talking about, don't step in all the time. Don't be the one that always fixes all the problems because they need to learn this resilience. Can you talk then about a balanced schedule? Because that's one of the concepts that you talk about in helping a child develop a. Yes brain. So a balanced schedule includes some boredom. It includes play, free play. You wrote. It's not an exaggeration to say that free play is becoming an endangered activity for many of today's children. So that's what we're trying to preserve, especially in a day where there's heavy technology use. Can we just preserve? Can we preserve downtime? Can we preserve some free time? Basically, can we have a more balanced schedule? Because the statistics say that kids are on screens for four to seven hours, but they're only outside for four to seven minutes every day. So can you talk about the importance of a balanced schedule?
- [44:13]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking about my daughter hiking the trail right now, and instead of conforming to an expectation on what a game might tell you on a screen or, you know, what a structured thing, I'm learning this skill of tennis and swimming and dance or whatever, you know, this. Although she wouldn't call it downtime hiking for six months. But, you know, this. This ability to just be in the present and open to this way where life unfolds in front of You. It's one way of thinking about downtime and playtime just being. Not so much. You're playing a structured game of competition like our daughter used to be in volleyball, you know, where you're. You're practicing your volleyball and you're getting on the court and trying to beat the other team. That's not what we mean by playtime. We mean this kind of way where you're collaborating with other people. Yes, but it's coming from a place of spontaneity, where there's no right and wrong. There's just imagination. That is a yes. And if, you know, improv, it's a yes and rather than no. But, you know, you want to yes and life. And so that's the yes brain idea, you know. And so I think David Rock and I put this healthy mind platter together that is in the book Brainstorm, you know, where you. You see there are at least seven things you want to make sure for your child they have every day, you know, so we can go through them. Sleeping. Super, super important. Time for sleep should be prioritized. And with all these external expectations, schools have, like homework, it's through the roof how it's stressing their sleep time. So that's really important. Moving your body around time, you know, time to move and. And be out, you know, making sure you're not just sitting in front of a screen. I mean, it's part of why I have a walking desk, you know, because I am writing all the time or teaching or seeing patients or whatever, and I do that. All this walking, you know, may not be aerobic exercise, but at least I'm. I'm moving. So then you want connecting time. Time to be in nature and connect with nature and time to connect with other people. So just think of it as the body is one aspect of who we are, but we're also our relationships with people on the planet. So that's connecting time. So I think that's three. We've talked about downtime, where this is time where nothing's planned. And boredom is really good because it inspires imagination. Yeah, right. Just letting one's own mind make the plan for what's happening right now. Nothing scheduled. That's the idea of downtime. Then there's play time, you know, goofing around time. There's focus time, which means that we have to make sure our kids aren't having all these things distracting them. You know, I remember my daughter when things were first objects were getting there. She had her phone, she had her. Her computer she had an ipod or something like that, and she had something else going on, the actual something else that was distracting her. And she was trying to study for a test, like when she was in fifth grade or something. And I said, well, how's it going? She goes, I can't remember anything. I said, yeah, you need a one thing at a time, you know, and then she could remember a lot. But, you know, so that's focus time. And there's one. Oh, then the last time is time in.
- [47:40]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
Yeah.
- [47:40]
Dr. Dan Siegel
And this is, you know, encouraging inward time. So, you know, you can get that healthy mind platter diagram, you can put it up on the refrigerator and just, you know, we didn't want to dictate how much of each of them you do, but if you just keep each of the seven in mind and make sure that each day has a bit of each one, you know. And did I. I don't know if you, if you have it there. Did I leave any of them out?
- [48:03]
Jenny Ur
No, you got them all.
- [48:04]
Dr. Dan Siegel
I got them all. Yay. So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of a guide, just like you say, well, what's a healthy approach to the platter of food? You want to eat, you know, mostly vegetables, not too much, you know, and eat this food that Michael Pollan has these great rules, you know, eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables, you know, it's, it's a, it's a great rule. So that would be a seven, seven course mind meal.
- [48:33]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
Yes.
- [48:33]
Jenny Ur
And you can see, you can see that in a lot of ways this is off kilter physical time. Because if kids are on screens for four to seven hours, how much time do you have left to connect and to play and to have downtime and to have time with introspection and to sleep and to move your body so, and to focus on the things you want to grow at. So that's a fantastic tool. So let's talk a little bit about Brainstorm and then think about the myths of adolescence. And you do give a story in Brainstorm about an adolescent who gets in a horrific car accident and actually does end the life of someone else. And so I think a lot of times people look at adolescence, it's like this out of control time. And there is a possibility that it can go there. But for the most part, what you're talking about is that these are vital skills that adolescents have. They, they're, it's a challenge and a gift, but adults should try and maintain their vitality, just like how teens have all of this vitality. So can you talk to parents. So you talk about adolescence in the book Brainstorm, and then you also talk about a specific adolescent in the book Mindsight. And that adolescent is Jonathan. And Jonathan is able to completely turn his life around in six months. And then, you know, you talk about. And he goes on to live this great life and he learns how to accept himself as he is and to be kind to himself and his actual middle prefrontal region, it starts to grow.
- [50:04]
Dr. Dan Siegel
That's what we, we believe that happens because he develops those functions. Yeah.
- [50:07]
Jenny Ur
Yes, yes, absolutely. So can you talk then, for adolescents about a myth or two where what you're saying is there are great things going on for our teens? You talk about the four features of adolescence, and they're exactly what we need to not only live a vital life as teens, but to keep our brains growing throughout life. I mean, people are so negative about teens. We've got teens, I think, I think they're pretty wonderful.
- [50:36]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I know, and it's the, it's so sad because the attitude people have about the adolescent period creates its own, you know, mythology, you know, false beliefs, and also makes you so wary of it, not seeing the positive side of it. So that's why I wrote the book, and I wrote the book for adolescents because my own adolescents, you know, they, when I wanted them to read something about this period of life they were in, there was nothing I found, first of all, that looked at the brain of adolescents, and there was nothing that really had a positive spin on it that could support them. So that's why I wrote the book for adolescents themselves. Yeah, the myth is that hormones are raging out of control. Well, there's no such thing as a raging hormone. And hormones do change. But the bigger issue is not so much the hormone change as the reconstruction of the brain. And when you understand these regions, including this middle area of the prefrontal cortex, it's kind of reorganizing itself. Then you can understand some of these things that may have been there for a 9 year old and 10 year old. Once 11, 12, 13 starts happening, they start going offline and you go, oh my God, what has happened to my little kid? You know, well, they're an adolescent. And adolescence is not just some random in between period. It's a necessary period of brain reorganization. So it involves two big things. There's a pruning away of existing connections, but then there's a creating of the connections that remain more robust. Connectivity with laying down something called myelin. And what that means is the brain is actually becoming more integrated in that it's becoming more differentiated. You get rid of the stuff you don't need. So it's a use it or lose it principle. And the things that then are going to be developed are much more rapid and efficient, believe it or not. But there's four ways of thinking about it that in the acronym essence, there's an emotional spark. So emotions are more intense, and kids need to learn to surf those emotions, not just avoid the surf altogether. So that's an important thing. The upside of that is there's all this passion. But the downside is it can be really dysregulating and you don't know what to do with your emotions. The second thing se is social engagement. You know, adolescents are much more engaged with their peers than their parents, and that happens in all cultures. And we want to support that while we're maintaining our connections with our. Our adolescents. And this really can help you do that. So you don't see this as like, oh my God, I'm being rejected, which is understandable that we can feel that way, but how you keep the connections going. And the reason for this is, you know, peer relationships are going to be what they depend on when they go out into the world, and they need to develop these social skills. The downside is you can give up morality to try to gain membership, right? So it's a pretty risky aspect. All these downsides, you know, these intense emotions, this giving up your clear thinking just to gain belonging. The essence E S S E the. The N is novelty seeking. It's looking for new, exciting things. And that's because of a change in this, what's called the dopamine system. It's the reward system of the brain. And one of the biggest things to secrete dopamine, which is at kind of lower levels, higher release levels in adolescence, is novelty. So they want to really try something new. And the benefit for our society is you get all this ingenuity and creativity coming from adolescence. And it's this drive for novelty and this kind of restlessness with the same old, same old, you know. Well, that can really alienate parents who think their kids are rejecting what they're doing, because they are. And that's what they're programmed genetically to do. And that's how our society evolves. Well, so you really want to see this as, wow, they're really making an opportunity for adapting to a new world, and not just they're threatening the world we have. So, you know, the downside is that you can feel Very disillusioned, you know, with your parents and who do certain things a certain way. And the last one, ce is creative exploration, you know, this is where literally they're driven. And then think outside the box, you know, and try to imagine a world that could be, not just adapt to the world that is, which is kind of what we do as adults, kind of making the world okay. Where's my niche? How am I going to fit in? How am I going to just go home and supply for my family and just try to watch some TV at the end of this long day? I'm so tired. That's not what adolescence is about. Adolescence is, you know, something I. I can create a new world. So let me try to think about that. And. And this whole essence is something we as adults should try to hold on to ourselves. And the research is really clear. If we can hold on to these four elements, we will stay with a younger heart, a younger mind, a younger way of actually living into the world with this kind of energy and vitality.
- [55:40]
Jenny Ur
Yeah, it's fantastic. A fantastic read. So I just want to give a little insight too, into some of the other topics, obviously, that we aren't going to have time to talk about today. But you talk about right and left brain. There was this man that came that was 92, and you said he leaned to the left. And I think in this day and age, there's a lot of leaning to the left, that logic brain and less right brain, because we're not outside as much, we're not connecting as much. And he was able to make changes, and his wife, I mean, just shocking changes at 92. So you can change your brain all the way through, like actually physically change your brain. You talk about widening your window of tolerance. You talk about the importance of dreams. You talk about ptsd. You talk about implicit memories and explicit memories and how you used to sing this Russian song, I think it was to your babies when they were in the womb. And they. You were able to tell somehow that they could recognize that. I thought that was incredible. That was so cool. You talk about, obviously, it's so much about attachment. You do the adult attachment interview and then you learn about change and mirror neurons. I mean, there's just an incredible amount to learn from your books and people can go to your website, drdansiegel.com to find more and also slash courses. Is the Mindsight Institute that you run with your wife, is that correct?
- [56:55]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yes. Well, I used to. We transferred it to the Pesi platform. But mind, your brain is Our new name. The new. The name out facing name. We do. But yeah, she runs the company. She's. She's my boss, which is wonderful.
- [57:07]
Jenny Ur
And she's written a book too, so people can check that out.
- [57:09]
Dr. Dan Siegel
I want to recognize Presents by Caroline Welch. Yeah, it's a great, great book.
- [57:14]
Jenny Ur
The Gift of Presence.
- [57:15]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Yes, I saw Mindfulness Guide for Women.
- [57:18]
Jenny Ur
Oh, that's wonderful. I saw that.
- [57:20]
Dr. Dan Siegel
It's an incredible book, actually.
- [57:21]
Jenny Ur
Yes, yes. And then you say you love acronyms. That was one thing I read in your book. An acronym lover. But you also talked in your book about being outside. And we always end with the same question. But I wanted to wrap it up here. You talked about as a kid and as a teen riding to the beach, riding home from the beach, listening to the waves. And you also talked more recently about doing a six day trip on the Salmon River. So that sound sounded exceptional. And that the river is a mirror, that there's a lot of powerful metaphors for the human experience that you can find in nature. So we always end with the same question. It has to do with nature. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [58:04]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. You know, I think one of my favorite memories would be going to the beach and here in Southern California in Santa Monica and going with my mom and my brother and then getting on a raft and going into the waves and, and kind of getting in this communion with the waves that the force of the wind and the presence of the sea and there was the glittering sand and just having this sense of incredible joy that I was a part of this magnificent planet, you know.
- [58:46]
Jenny Ur
Wow, that's powerful image. This has been such an honor. I am just beyond thrilled that you said yes. It is an honor of my lifetime to meet you. You have just done such incredible foundational work as seen in the amount of other books that your name comes up in and the amount of books that you've written and the courses that people can take and the places that you've spoken all around the world. Thank you so much for being here today.
- [59:11]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Oh, you're welcome. Great question. Thank you so much, Jenny. A pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- [59:21]
Sponsor Voiceover
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- [59:50]
Dr. Dan Siegel
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- [60:20]
Dr. Dan Siegel
Com.