← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 843: The Childhood AI Can't Replace | Brendan Steinhauser, Secure AI Now
00:59:55
Loading summary
Transcript88 lines
- [00:01]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
You know, one of those moments that really changes the way you think is becoming a parent. I remember when our kids were little, we started having conversations that weren't very fun, but they were important things, like what would happen if one of us wasn't here, or even both of us. We realized that life insurance wasn't really about us. It was about helping create stability and financial security for the people we love most. That's why we believe life insurance is something worth taking seriously. And if you've been putting it off because you think it's going to be complicated or time consuming, Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy. Everything is 100 online. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and even get same day coverage. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions online. Plus, you can get up to $3 million in coverage with some policies starting as low as $30 a month. Take 10 minutes to get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free', @ethos.com 1000 hours. That is ethos.com 1000 hours. Application times may vary. We're rates may vary.
- [01:03]
Jenny Ertin
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertin, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I have really been looking forward to this conversation. This is the key thing of our time, of our day and age. We're going to be talking about AI, we're going to be talking about protecting our children. We're going to be talking about the rapid pace of change. We're going to be talking about how to prepare our kids for it. And the CEO of the alliance for Secure AI, wow, Brendan Steinhauser is here. Welcome, Brendan.
- [01:30]
Brendan Steinhauser
Thank you, Jenny. It's an honor to be with you.
- [01:32]
Jenny Ertin
Okay. I want to kick it off to let people know where they can go. Secure AI now.org then you also have a phenomenal substack where you have all these articles that are coming out, but if you go to secure ainow.org it's going to link out to all the things that you need to know. So besides being the CEO of the alliance for Secure AI, you're also a homeschooling family who trying to get outside.
- [01:54]
Brendan Steinhauser
That's right. Yeah. We, we live in Austin, Texas. We're a homeschooled family. We have five kiddos ranging in age from nine down to two. And so it's, it's wild and crazy at our house and we love it. And my wife and I, my wife Randon and I have owned a business together for many years and now she runs the business and I'm doing this job, which I love doing, and we have a great life. It's as you know, it's often hard, but it's good. And we really love our life that we have and we wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.
- [02:23]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And you're getting kids outside in hot Texas and we're getting kids outside in coal Michigan. You can do it wherever, wherever you're at. You know, you just deal with the weather. But I want to talk about this path that you're on here. She talked about the company that you have with your wife and then you become the CEO of the alliance for Secure AI. And you are appearing everywhere, frequent media commenter. You're in all the things, you know, newspapers, magazines, books, journals, tv. So can you talk about where that interest in AI came from? Has this been like a long standing thing or is it newer?
- [02:57]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, you know, I think about it a couple of different ways, just on the personal level with our family. We're watching this trend happen in the last couple of years, of course, this movement inside public schools in particular, but inside of kind of traditional schools, you know, more and more ed tech, more and more screens. And now AI is basically going to take all of that to the next level. It's highly addictive. AI is built to keep us engaged all the time, to keep us on our phones and on our computers. And so we just reject a lot of that. We want our kids outside, we want our kids learning on their own, we want a little boredom, we want them to really be creative and we're trying to raise our kids a certain way. We're trying to do the home education in the way that you talk a lot about and you've written about in your book, which is to kind of let them naturally learn and provide an environment of love and care and learning that they can often do a lot of self directed learning with our support and counsel along the way. So watching this happen with society happen, happening with our own family and sort of the trends, watching this happen in our community in terms of technology and over reliance on technology, you know, then we see AI come about in the last couple of years and it gets even worse. And so we can kind of project out and see where this could go very shortly. So all that's going on at the same time we're running our business and doing our thing. And then a friend of mine from graduate school, Mark Beale, gave me a call a couple of years ago and said, I want to bring you in, bring your expertise in communications and government affairs into the AI space. And he started telling me, you know, you got to read this book, talk to this person, read this article. And I thought he was crazy at first, like, what are you talking about? What is AGI? What is super intelligence? And one thing led to another and he kind of convinced me, hey, this is the fight of our time. And he's like, brendan, I need you in this fight with me. And so we worked together. He brought me in, I started doing some consulting work for him and his company. And then he introduced me to some folks who allowed me to open up this new organization about a year ago called the alliance for Secure AI. Wow.
- [04:48]
Jenny Ertin
It's only been around for one year.
- [04:50]
Brendan Steinhauser
Been around for one year.
- [04:51]
Jenny Ertin
It just shows how fast things are moving. And you talk about that. You know, I read some of the articles to people who are talking about, you know, just two years ago, the, you know, where was chat GPT. And then, you know, it says in, in two years time with AI, that is ancient history. In 2002, AI couldn't do basic arithmetic reliably. It would tell you confidently that 7 times 8 is 54. By 2023, it could pass the bar exam. By 2024, it could write software and explain graduate level science. By late 2025, some of the best engineers in the world said they had handed most of their coding work over to AI. And as of February 5th of this year, the new models have arrived. That makes all that feel like it's a different era. So this is a fast moving situation. And so can you talk about the alliance for Secure AI? This is working to make AI secure for all Americans, mitigating risks and protecting humanity.
- [05:44]
Brendan Steinhauser
Absolutely. Yeah, you're exactly right. The capabilities of AI are actually doubling every four months. So you think about where we're going to be one year from today. It's going to be a lot different. It's going to be crazy. And so, you know, we want those capabilities to be used for good, not for bad. We want to reap the benefits of AI while mitigating the risks and preventing the downsides. Unfortunately, I think we're actually on kind of a bad path right now, and we're not doing enough as a society to put in safeguards and guardrails to make sure that we control AI. We get it to do what we want it to do so that we can have a better future. Because, look, the people that are the closest to this technology in Silicon Valley the people building the technology, the entrepreneurs who are, you know, putting all this together, the engineers, the machine learning PhDs, they are the most concerned about it because they see the capabilities, doubling every four months. They see what it's already able to do in terms of things like cyber hacking and, you know, breaking into systems and potentially creating some national security threats as well, which we can get into later. And so the people closest to the tech are saying, we really need safeguards here. If we, if we don't do that, we're not going to have that future that we want.
- [06:52]
Jenny Ertin
Doubling is like the hockey stick graph. So it's not linear, it's not like something that kind of is growing like a line 2x 2x 2x. It's like that whole thing where they say, would you rather have a, you know, if you could get a penny? And then it doubles every week, within three months it will have filled it, you know, I don't, I don't know, it will have filled the stadium or. Because it's double, double, double, double. And that's what this is.
- [07:17]
Brendan Steinhauser
Absolutely. Yeah. It's called exponential growth. And you're exactly right. Doubling over a period of time, doubling again, doubling again, leads to orders of magnitude and capability, things that we can't even really comprehend. Now some are saying maybe that'll slow down at some point, maybe it'll hit kind of a peak. And we don't know for sure. But looking at where the trend lines are now, it does appear the capabilities are going to be far better. Essentially, you know, we're on the, we're on the growth path of where the, the AI agents themselves will essentially be smarter than not only any human who's ever lived, but potentially smarter and faster than the sum of all human beings who've ever lived. Now, that's crazy, but that is the path that we're on mathematically with this exponential growth. And again, you can think about, well, that could be really great. If it's tailored to do good things to help us cure diseases, or to solve for nuclear fusion, or to solve really hard math problems and, you know, help us become more efficient and wealthier. But again, without solving that problem of control to make sure that we actually get it to do what we want, we could be creating something like an alien species in our midst that could, that we could lose control over. And then AI powered by potentially, or powering, you know, robotics could be a really bad situation for humanity.
- [08:31]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Exactly.
- [08:31]
Jenny Ertin
I read a book, changed my life. It's called the Empire of AI by Karen Howe. And that really helped to, it helped me to understand one of the things that she talked about with the doubling, which she said like technology is not inevitable, it's not, it's not guaranteed that this technology is going to come. So she talked about Moore's law, which is also exponential growth. And this was when people, I think we're talking about computer speed, computer chips. And that was doubling, let's say every 18 months, slower than AI, but doubling still that exponential growth. And what she talked about was that it became a self fulfilling prophecy because the companies would say, oh, we've been able to double the speed of these processing chips, let's say every 18 months. So now the expectation is that we're going to double these things every 18 months. And so she said it was almost similar with AI it's like now there's an expectation, it doubles, it doubles every four months. So we're going to stick with that. And then the book is basically about how this is ravaging the earth under the guise of that it's going to save the earth. It's a pretty, pretty eye opening book. And I want to talk about, for the parents that are listening, I want to talk definitely about jobs and then public policy. So there's a couple, couple main things here. Because it's moving so fast, it's just hard to keep up with public policy. So can you talk about that part of it? Like you were named one of Time magazine's 40 under 40 rising political stars. Obviously politics is so divisive. But then there are some of these issues that are coming up like what's in our food and what's going on with AI that affect everyone. And so it's really tricky to navigate.
- [10:05]
Brendan Steinhauser
It is. Here's the good news about the politics of AI. It's pretty overwhelming. Something like 80 to 85% of Americans want safeguards on AI. They want guardrails to protect people. They want to put human beings first and they want government to protect its citizens. They want states to act to protect children online and they want the federal government to act to protect national security. And what's really interesting about this work is that I found myself working with people on the other side of the aisle that I never thought I would work with on anything. And so it's created this, this environment where you have these strange BEDF fellows where people on the left, the right and the center and people who don't like politics at all all kind of agree generally on what we need to do here. So there is political will that exists among the American people. And I think that's creating some pressure on. On politicians in Washington and state capitals to act as well. And so I do have hope that in terms of the policy area, if we can be creative and if we can, you know, be ahead of things a little bit, that we might be able to put some protections in place. Now, look, some of these things are going to be very, very difficult to do, but other things are. Are qu put protections on, in place to protect kids online? Some states have already acted to do that. We should do more of that, and we should create space for states to experiment to see, okay, what do we need to do to protect our kids? I think that's something we can all agree upon.
- [11:21]
Jenny Ertin
Absolutely.
- [11:22]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Okay.
- [11:23]
Jenny Ertin
So this is moving rapidly, and one of the biggest things that people are talking about is that it is disrupting jobs. So in the Empire of AI, the author Karen is really diving into Sam Altman. But then there's a lot of different AI companies, but really only a handful that are kind of at the top. And so she's making the point. I don't know if you've read the book or if you like the book,
- [11:41]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
but I love the book.
- [11:43]
Jenny Ertin
I learned so much. Because she's making the point that there's a. There's a few people at the top that are elites that are really driving the ship and making decisions that would affect a lot of us. And one of the things that they talk about is this utopia. It's going to be a utopia. You know, your job isn't going to be tied to your income and. And all of these things and talking about universal basic income. And she does a masterful job in the book because it's a juxtaposition of the fact that Sam has a sister who's struggling. And there's all of this tiff about how much they should help her because she needs to kind of pull herself up by her own bootstraps or she's never going to learn. It's kind of like one of those situations. So you're like, well, universal basic income isn't even working in his family. So, you know, then you talk about redistribution. She said, has any technology ever done that where it, like, creates this mass money and then you redistrict? We just. But I do know that technology in general often creates more wealth. So can you talk about the. The part about the jobs? There's a couple parts here. First of all, jobs matter. Work is a part of our purpose and a part of our happiness. So I don't think that anybody really wants to not have a job. I think on the surface it sounds good, but the, the most dangerous year of life is the year you retire. So this is not necessarily what people want, although I think it could be sold to them. So first of all, when you talk about that part of it, like these jobs are disappearing and when you talk about the alliance for Secur AI part of protecting humanity, I would think, is protecting work.
- [13:15]
Brendan Steinhauser
Absolutely, work. And work can be not only a traditional job, it could be a white collar job, a blue collar job. It can also be raising children. By the way, that's extremely hard work. It could be taking care of an elderly parent, it could be, you know, volunteering at a food bank. I mean, work is about doing things and moving around and making things happen to serve other people. That's what work is about. And it gives you purpose and it gives you dignity. And you're right, the social science is clear that when we have that, we are happier, we are healthier, we live longer. And so I think this is a really dangerous proposition that these handful of companies, a handful of CEOs, like, you know, Sam Altman, Elon Musk, Dario Amade and these other folks who are leading these companies are going to, you know, create potentially trillions of dollars in wealth. They're going to become potentially trillionaires themselves. And it's all going to be okay because we're all going to be taken care of and they're going to cut us checks and it'll, it'll be great. We won't have to do anything. But then you start to wonder, do I really want to be reliant upon my livelihood by these guys that I don't really know and I don't really trust? Do I want to rely upon Silicon Valley to give me my, you know, basic necessities for my family and for me? Or maybe it's not directly through them, maybe it's through a tax. And so it's the federal government redistributing this wealth to us. Well, do I want to be dependent upon the federal government for my well being and for my material needs? I don't think anybody really wants that. And you can see what that can do to the human soul. You can see what it can do to our, to us. Broadly. If anybody has seen the movie Wall E, the animated movie from many years ago, it kind of describes a humanity where we're all just sitting around being taken care of by AI powered robots. It's not a very good future. And so I think from a public policy standpoint, yes, we need to look at what impact AI could have on jobs, on workers, and on, on young people in particular. We're running into some really bad numbers there with, with hiring freezes and job losses. And so those are things we're tracking and worried about. And so look, almost nobody I've talked to wants a universal basic income. So I think there's going to have to be some other solutions on the table. We can kind of look at that. But look, I do not trust the big tech elites to basically run the show or run the country. I think that's a bad idea.
- [15:23]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah. And I think Karen's book was brilliant in showing that Sam can't even make it work with his own family member.
- [15:30]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
One of the things homeschool families understand really well is that learning doesn't only happen at a desk. Summer often looks different every single week. Travel, camps, time, outside family visits, all of it. And sometimes you just need tools that move with your actual life. That's what makes something like IXL so appealing during the summer months. It gives families a flexible way to keep learning momentum going without needing rigid schedules or complicated planning. IXL is an award winning online learning platform with interactive practice in math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged, and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out to me is how adaptable it is whether a child wants to review concepts from last year, stay sharp over the summer, or build confidence in a subject that's been challenging. IXL adjusts to their pace. And because everything is organized by grade and topic, it's easy for families to jump in wherever they are, even during busy summer weeks. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours. Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20 off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. I think being a cat person is one of those things you don't really understand until you become one. Before we had cats, I thought they just slept all day and ignored everyone but ours have personalities. They play, they're curious, they have routines, and honestly, they're pretty entertaining. So it makes sense that somebody finally decided to reinvent the litter box. The Whisker litter robot automatically cycles after every use, so there's no daily scooping. It keeps things cleaner, cuts down on one more household chore. And honestly makes living with cats even more enjoyable. Then there's the Whisker app, which notifies you when the unit finishes a clean cycle or needs attention. It also lets you keep track of things like your cat's weight and bathroom usage, making it easy to notice changes in their routine over time. Whisker has options whether you have one cat or up to five, including the Litter Robot Evo and the Litter Robot 5 Pro. And if you're starting from scratch, their bundles are a great way to get everything you need while saving some money. The future is feline. Learn more about Whisker litter robot models and starter kits today. Take an additional $50 off bundles with code 1000 hours. That's an additional 50 off bundles with code 1000 hours. Visit whisker.com 1000hours to shop now. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I think a lot of parents head into summer with two completely different feelings at the same time. Excitement and pressure. We want the long days and the memories and the adventures, but we also feel the weight of trying to make the most of every minute before autumn is upon us. And if we're not careful, summer can start to feel less like enjoying life and more like managing everyone else's expectations. Therapy can be such a helpful reminder that you matter, too. It's a place to soar through stress, anxiety, or the mental load that comes with caring for so many people. And sometimes just having someone unbiased to talk to can help you move from simply surviving a season to actually enjoying it. Better Help makes therapy more accessible by matching you with a licensed therapist through a short questionnaire so you can focus on your goals. And if you want to switch therapists, you can do that at any time. BetterHelp has over 30,000 therapists worldwide, has served more than 6 million people, and has an average of 4.9 out of 5 rating across 1.7 million reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support and therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com 1000hours that's betterhelp.com 1000hours so you have a
- [18:55]
Jenny Ertin
website called Jobloss AI?
- [18:58]
Brendan Steinhauser
We do.
- [18:58]
Jenny Ertin
That's part of the alliance for Secure AI.
- [19:01]
Brendan Steinhauser
It is one of our, one of our teammates, Cameron, came up with this idea. He said, hey, nobody's tracking this in a like systematic way. Let's look at how many jobs have been lost due to AI in the last year or so. And so we developed this tool, we put it up on our website, we kind of pushed it out there. And now we track it on a daily basis and we look at what companies are saying themselves about job losses, we look at the press releases that go out, we look at independent reporting because sometimes the company won't admit the jobs are lost due to AI, but there's a whistleblower from within the company that tells a journalist and then some of it's a judgment call as well. But we've tracked this now going back to January of 2025 and we've seen well over 130,000 jobs lost due to AI. And look, that's a bad thing in general. But what we're hearing and what we're seeing is some of these people in this business are saying white collar work could be fully automated potentially within two to three years. It's not saying it will, that I will diffuse to the economy that fast. I don't know that we can say that. But they are saying the capabilities will be there where all white collar work could be automated that fast. So people really need to be paying attention to this one.
- [20:07]
Jenny Ertin
Absolutely. So this is a real time tracker of AI driven layoffs across the U.S. these jobs are disappearing, the numbers are growing and we're counting every single one. So here's an example. One of the things I thought was really interesting about the chart is it would show the number of layoffs and then like you said, it would show, is it a mix? Is it solely because of AI? Is it unknown? But then it also would show what percentage of the workforce it was. So was this 5% of the workforce. I thought that was really interesting.
- [20:33]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Number two.
- [20:34]
Jenny Ertin
So an example would be Cloudflare. Cloudflare is cutting 1100 jobs. Well, you know, you might not know what Cloudflare is or how big of a company it is. And that is 20% of its entire workforce. 20%. One in five got let go. The reason AI CEO Matthew Prince said AI and AI agents are now core parts of our workforce, fundamentally changing how the company operates. This is not an isolated incident, it's a pattern and it's accelerating. So people could go to your sub stack and you have different articles about this. One of them was talking about. So in trying to figure out how to lead our children, I. It's interesting because there are books that I have read from the last decade plus that are talking about the rapidly changing global economy and that the way to prepare for that is through play. Because it's the only time that you are faced with things that are uncertain and you have to figure it out. So even before AI, this was the strategy and I can imagine that with AI here, it's here and then obviously changing fast, that these things are really important. We can't just have top down adult driven childhoods because then kids are going to have a hard time adjusting. So there was a website, an article on the sub stack about inequality and redistribution and this was a fantastic article about how can more people participate in the AI economy. But there was a study done that covered 150 million jobs and it went through four categories. So one was high automotion, automation risk. So what's super risky? Like these white collar jobs that you talked about, jobs that will reorganize. So these are ones that are going to have, they're going to have some shifts, but they'll still probably have jobs. Then there's a category of jobs that will grow with AI because there will be that. And then there's jobs that have less immediate change on them. They're less likely to change in the short term. The percentages were actually in some ways not the worst. I mean they're still pretty rough. The percentage with less immediate change was 46%. So basically what that said to me, Brennan, was that less than half of the jobs that exist right now are safe. In quotes.
- [22:49]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, I think, and nobody knows for sure, but that is a good estimate. And I think some people think that it's more like, you know, 80% of jobs are at risk in the next again two to three years. Some people think, I would never say 100%, but I think there's a, there's some that are betting on 90%. And then others say it may end up being, you know, 30 or 40% of jobs are at risk of basically disappearing, being replaced in the next few years. But again, I think this, this will update six months from now, eight months from now, when those capabilities continue to advance. Because as that occurs and as people can see what these AI agents are capable of, both in terms of white, we're focused mostly on white collar work at this moment. But as robotics continues to grow, and it's already, I mean just in the last two years, robotics has greatly advanced. As that continues, then you start looking at, okay, blue collar jobs are also not safe. Blue collar jobs are also at high risk of being replaced. I think that's going to take a little longer. But yeah, you think about just, you know, Great Depression era unemployment rate, I think was something in the neighborhood of 18 to 20%. I mean just massive. We sit at about 4, 4% now roughly. And so even if that number doubles from four to eight, that's, that's a bad situation. If it goes from 12, 4%, 12%. I mean, we're talking about social instability. We're talking about a major, major problem on our hands. And so it really, I mean, policymakers have to be looking at this right now. They can't wait for the crisis to happen. They really have to start to figure this out.
- [24:12]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah. And because Karen Howe said technology is not inevitable, like it doesn't necessarily have to go a certain way, there can be influence there. And so that's why it's so important to follow what you're doing. At the alliance for Secure AI, there was then a list of categories of jobs that require humans. I was like, oh, this is great. So for example, when there's physical necessity, so this is taking care of people in person, that type of thing. There's relational care, human connection. There were some different categories there. But can you talk about as a dad with a tuna? Here's the thing. I think that's kind of tricky, Brennan, and I don't know if it's going to get worse for you or better. I actually would be curious what your thoughts are. The parents who have kids right now or who have just graduated kids from college or have, you know, 17, 18, 19, 20 year old, I think are in some ways a little screwed because you don't really know how this is going to impact. Maybe you might have a little bit longer Runway if your kids are younger, but it's changing so fast that that may not even matter at. So there was an article on the substack about rethinking what we're telling our kids. The standard playbook, getting good grades, going to a good college, landing a stable professional job. That path is actually. Has not been around, has kind of died a while ago, but then even more so today. Things are so moving so quickly. So one of the advice is to lean into what's hardest to replace. That takes kind of a lot of brain power, you know. Well, it changes going to college. It was like, you just go get whatever degree, you'll probably find a job. Then you're like, lean into what's hardest to replace. Okay, well, what even is that?
- [26:04]
Brendan Steinhauser
Well, and that's going to change right now. It is the things that require the human connection and some, some element of physicality, I think, you know, especially things that require, you know, your hands, like, you know, moving, doing things that are kind of precise movements. Robots are still going to struggle with that for a while. And I also think that there are just a certain number of people that are going to want people taking care of them. So you think about home health care, for example, or nurses and things like that. But look, I think that we're only a few years away from those jobs being able to be done by AI powered robots as well. And some people, frankly, might even prefer a non human taking care of them. We're already seeing the rise of AI companions, which is another thing I'm concerned about where people are entering into relationships with AIs. And right now it's mostly chatbots, but it's going to become holograms next and then it's going to become actual physical robots beyond that. And so these are things we have to kind of think about. But look, I, I talked to Dr. Stuart Russell, who literally wrote the textbook on AI that most universities use in undergrad, and he's on our board of advisors. And I said, you know, you've been following this closer than anybody and writing about this and talking about this, but what should I tell my own kids to study and what should I, how should I think about their education? What's your opinion? And he gave a great answer, which I think lines up with what your audience will relate to, which is, you know, what they need is adaptability and flexibility. They need to love to learn, they need to learn how to learn. They need to have character development. They need to have grit and determination and perseverance. They need to struggle with things and, you know, whether it's physical things or, you know, climbing that mountain, or whether it's intellectual things like learning Latin for the sake of it, whatever it is, if they do hard things and they, they have a good work ethic and they have character development and they're flexible and adaptable, then they will be prepared for whatever this crazy future holds. And I honestly think that's the best advice that I could give to fellow parents. And it's certainly the approach that my wife Randon and I are trying to implement in our own home.
- [27:57]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, okay, how does that align with current educational policies? Because I mean, if I were to look at, you know, at the education of our youth as a whole, I don't think that anybody would like, say, grit, perseverance, learning how to learn, kind of none of that.
- [28:15]
Brendan Steinhauser
No, we're lacking in critical thinking already. We're not. You know, we've replaced a lot of the curriculum in K through 12 and higher education. We've had a crisis in higher education in particular over the last 20 or 30 years even. And so there's been some effort to try and reverse that a little bit, but we've seen a bad trend on most college campuses and in K through 12 education. And now we're giving these children at the youngest age possible, we're giving them laptops and iPads and Apple watches and all this stuff. I mean, within reason, sure, like here and there. But now they're spending hours and hours a day on these devices and they're not reading books and they're not writing with pen and paper and they're, they're not outside, they're not spending time playing, they're not spending time with, with, you know, non peers, you know, people that are older that they can kind of learn from. They're not spending enough time with their parents and the people that are caretakers and love them. And so I think this is all heading in the wrong direction, unfortunately. I think the good news to your point earlier is, you know, we have agency. We can decide. And if there's anybody thinking about how to approach this, how to, you know, raise their own family, how to home educate, or whether they have what it takes. Yes, you do. You can do it. And I think there's going to be a mass movement toward more people leaving that traditional model because it's not working and moving into the homeschooling realm.
- [29:30]
Jenny Ertin
Right. Like the alarm bells have gone off. It is time to restructure childhood and there's really no time to waste. And when you do childhood, I mean, you could attest, you know, your kids are young, 2 to 9, and ours are. We've got like the same age spread, but we're almost a decade down the road. It's actually like a very joyous. Even though it's exhausting and busy, it's a joyous way to raise kids. So it's a blessing. It's a good thing that the restructure of childhood that's needed for an adult adapt. You know, a rapidly changing world is a beautiful childhood and a beautiful family experience. There's a book by Dr. Madeline Levine where she talks about how, because we're afraid, we're doubling down on old ways. So, you know, we had standardized tests, now we've got standardized tests. It's almost like the same curve, like the exponential growth. Right. Of standardized tests or all this homework. It's just growing rapidly. I just, I saw a statistic. It was like play went down 50%. Time with parents went down 17%. What went up? Time spent on schoolwork at home, you know, 145% increase. So we're doubling down because of fear on these old ways. But the ways that actually work are wonderful and life giving and vibrant. So, I mean, in some ways there's some good news. If, if you had never considered home educating, but now you hear these conversations and you think, oh, you know, probably this would be the best route for my child to prepare them for this world that we're in. I mean, might turn out to be a really good thing for you, you know.
- [31:05]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, it might be great timing. It might be really important to do something like that, I think. Yeah, yeah. Now more than ever with this uncertainty, you are going to need children to grow up who are confident and again have the character to try and make good decisions. They're going to be facing some very interesting, weird, unprecedented changes about how they live their lives in this age of AI. And we kind of joke around the office about different sci fi examples, but whether it's Wall E or the Matrix or whatever, they're going to have to make some really important moral and ethical decisions about how to live their life and whether to sort of plug in or not, whether to become some sort of cyborg or not. And so I think that to me, faith is really important here in terms of our lives, but also in terms of education, I think our values and our morals are going to become more important than ever. And, and discerning, you know, just telling the truth between what's real and what's not, what's what's fake and what's actual news or what's information you can trust, that's going to be even harder. And so what that also does is I think if you want to get to the truth, you're going to have to, you know, shut down the laptop or turn off the phone and get outside and go investigate yourself. You know, is what they're saying that's happening in downtown Austin or downtown Lansing, Michigan really happening or not, you might have to go see for yourself because you're not going to know who to trust. And I think that's a very dangerous proposition. But we're already seeing that in this age of AI.
- [32:28]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, yeah. And so what you're saying is in a lot of ways this is giving, this is giving families a really. I don't know if it's an easy on ramp, but it's a different on ramp than, you know, like, because let's say you want to homeschool, you want to change the way you're educating, but your family's going to judge you I think that all of these reasons, which. Which is saying, look, we're in this age of AI, and I need to raise a child that's flexible and gritty and loves to learn, and we can pivot quicker than some sort of institution might be able to pivot. Gives you a lot of reasons to. And you need the reasons. You need the why, because it's not crazy easy. So you need all those things. And this could change your whole family life, and there could be generational impacts from that. This is also a way to come together across political divides. I'm seeing it with the data centers. It's like, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter where you stand. You don't want the data center. It's creating insane amounts of noise, ambient noise. And if you read Karen's book that I keep talking about, she says it's like just to train the next models. Like, they're just trying to gobble up as much data as they can to train and train, and, you know, in a race to get to the top, nobody even really knows what the top is going to be. And so there was another concept that I found on your website, which was talking about public tolerance for rapid change. I thought that was a really interesting way to put it. You know, I do think that at some point, people that like the scales fall off their eyes and they're like, wait, what exactly is happening here? I don't want this data center in my community. You can hear the noise for however long. Away, through the night, all day. Can't even open my windows anymore. Can you talk about what you've seen, even just in the last year or slightly longer, about the public starting to rise up and have a voice?
- [34:12]
Brendan Steinhauser
Voice, Absolutely. You know, it reminds me of my early career. I was involved in what was called the Tea Party movement. It was just a bunch of Americans who were mad at both parties and mad about the spending and the bailouts of Wall Street. It had kind of a populist tone to it, and I helped organize a lot of those major rallies and events and even protests in D.C. and it turned into a political force in 2010 in particular, where a lot of incumbents were defeated at the ballot box in the midterms. This reminds me of that. But what's interesting about this is it's even more bipartisan. I see people who are on the left or on the right, people that want nothing to do with politics, that are rising up in their local communities, saying, wait, what are you building? Why are you being so secretive about it, what are, what are these data centers? What are, what's in them? And like, why are energy prices spiking by 200% here? Why are you not telling us about the water usage and the noise and, and what are you building in there? Like, what is this, you know, super intelligence thing that I keep reading about and hearing about? Like what, what plans do you have? And then, and I think it's just bad operating procedure, bad business and bad pr. But these companies, it's so opaque. They don't tell you anything. They're the opposite of transparent. And it makes communities just feel like they're being either manipulated or being taken advantage of.
- [35:30]
Jenny Ertin
Can you talk about the. Because I think that's critically important. I think if you peel back the layers, what you find, that's what I read this book so good is that, that it's a little wizard of Ozzy. Like what exactly is the end goal here? And nobody really knows. And so then there was this study that had, it was like a third party company had rated the transparency of these four or five main AI companies and they all failed. They were all in F. The highest one was like a 54%. Even though OpenAI sounds like it's super open, you know, and, and that was the original intent, was to be able
- [36:09]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
to share the code.
- [36:10]
Jenny Ertin
Code. And then they just got more and more secretive over the years. So I do think, hopefully people will come together and have a voice and stand up for what is right for humanity or at least to slow the pace. I think one of the tricky parts is that it's sold as national security. So can you talk about the balance there between wanting to have national security, but also at the same time putting in, you know, 300,000 acre data centers and in gorgeous places of nature?
- [36:41]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials. Pieces that feel good the moment you put them on and still look effortless. And honestly, that's why I keep coming back to Quince. What I admire about Quince is that they've built a company around quality and intentionality. Instead of hype, they focus on high quality essentials. Breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk. But without the luxury markup. Everything feels elevated but still easy and practical for real life. Their 100 European linen pants, dresses and tops are beautiful for summer, and many styles start at just $32. Their denim is incredibly soft and comfortable. And I've also been loving their organic cotton sweaters for those cooler summer nights around the fire or early mornings outside. And it's not just clothing anymore. Quinn's has become a destination for elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding and more. I appreciate that they care about quality across the board, not just trends. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for craftsmanship and materials, not inflated brand markup. And I genuinely respect that approach as both a customer and a business owner. My Quince linen set has basically become my summer uniform. It's lightweight, comfortable and somehow still feels polished without trying too hard. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside I think a lot of parents today are looking for activities that engage the whole child. Not just passive entertainment, but things that spark creativity, movement, imagination and connection. That is what makes Once Upon a Dance such a unique idea. Once Upon a Dance creates interactive children's book books that actually invite kids into the story through movement. So as the story unfolds, kids are encouraged to dance, stretch, twirl, leap and imagine right alongside the characters. It becomes part story time, part creative play and part confidence building experience. The books were created by a mother, daughter team teacher Terrell and Ballerina K and I love hearing the heart behind what they're doing. The stories focus on things like practicing and preserving standing tall while staying kind, building friendships and learning empathy and self confidence. There are over 40 books across nine different series, including the Dance it Out series, the Magic Train, Movement Adventures and the Katina Ballerina Dance Along Books and beyond the books themselves. They offer free audio and video content plus educator resources online. It's also one of those companies where you can really feel the mission behind it. This decade, 100% of the royalties are benefiting charities that support the arts, animals, people and the planet. Swap screen time for connection. Get your kids off the couch and into a story. Jump, twirl or leap over to onceuponadance.com or find once Upon a Dance books wherever you buy books online, that's once upon a dance.com Summer has a way of simplifying things for me. I naturally start reaching for lighter fabrics, fewer pieces and clothes that just feel easy to live in. And that's one of the reasons I've become such a fan of quints. They really do such a good job of balancing Quality, comfort and simplicity. Everything feels elevated without feeling overly precious. Their pieces are made with premium materials like breathable European linen, organic cotton and washable silk. But the pricing is what always surprises me because it's so much more reasonable than you'd expect. Quince has beautiful linen pants, dresses and tops starting at just $32. And their denim is unbelievably soft. I've also been wearing one of their organic cotton sweaters on repeat during cool summer mornings and evenings. But what makes me continue to support Quince is honestly the company itself. They work directly with ethical factories, skip the middlemen and focus on making really high quality essentials accessible instead of chasing luxury markups. I just really admire that model. And now I keep finding myself shopping beyond clothing, too. Bedding, kitchen items, travel pieces. They've created this whole ecosystem of elevated everyday essentials that still feel grounded and practical. My Quince crossbody bag has become something I carry almost daily this summer because it literally works with everything and feels so well made. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside
- [40:51]
Brendan Steinhauser
right. Yeah, there's, there's always a balance between security and liberty and, and they kind of go hand in hand. You have to have security to have liberty, but if you have too much security and not enough liberty, that's not good either. So there's always a healthy tension. But I think that, you know, data centers and AI have become essentially critical infrastructure. They're going to be seen as similar to, you know, energy, water, transportation, communication, critical infrastructure that, you know, will need to be protected and seen as such. And it's become a military target in the Middle east, for example, where these data centers are built in this current conflict that's going on. So I think that's going to be part of the future as well. But I think what's going on in the national security front is that, yes, the American government needs, in the military in particular, needs to be able to use AI in specific ways to be able to pursue our national interests. I think most people would support that. But the concerns that many of us have are things like we don't want AI being given control over nuclear weapons, which thankfully the Chinese and the American government have agreed to that in principle at least. We don't want autonomous weapons flying around drones flying around the United States of America with targets that they can just autonomously decide to target, whether inside the United States or outside the United States. We want a human in control. We want a human being who can make a judgment call, a moral and ethical judgment call within the laws of war to say whether or not to take out a particular target abroad. And we don't want the Pentagon to have these AI models that just they can't control and that run amok and that they lose control of. And all of a sudden, you know, we have again, essentially a, you know, foreign entity within our military apparatus that we don't control and we can't stop. That would be extremely detrimental, not only to national security, but to our liberty. And I think that that, that is the thing that many of the companies are even talking about. They're kind of concerned about what exactly, you know, the role should be with them as it relates to the military. That's a big, a big topic that we have to get right. And I'm just concerned right now that because we haven't been able to show that we can control AI models, even simple AI models, what makes us think we'll be able to control the next generation? And if we can't, we sure shouldn't have them in charge of nuclear weapons or autonomous weapons or deciding on targets. That would be a very bad idea.
- [43:17]
Jenny Ertin
This is like a dumpster fire. It is a dumpster fire. It's like the issue of the data centers, which are just, just in, in my view, horrendous. I mean, when you say these are going to become critical infrastructure, it's like, well, the negatives toward human to human living are just tremendous. I mean, I'm seeing video after video, people like, this is what it sounds like. It's just like a motor running in the background constantly. People are talking about their property values and then obviously the water and the electricity. Then you're talking about the military and saying things, you know, and I've heard other people say similar things. It's like, well, you want a human to decide who lives or who dies, basically, which is quite an interesting sentence in and of itself. But you could see how in five years there might be someone who would say, well, no, the human is really limited in their capacity. It should be the machine that decides. And we're talking about job loss, we're talking about keeping children safe. Are you running around like a chicken with your head cut off at your. Like, what is your day to day like?
- [44:15]
Brendan Steinhauser
It's, it's drinking from a fire hose. It's trying to keep up with the news, with the information overload, it's trying to speak out about this in as many places as possible. And so every day we are talking to media, we're talking to journalists, we're talking to members of Congress and their staff, you know, people within the administration. We are just talking to anyone and everyone that we can and we're connecting them to people that are, that are the most technically proficient people in this space. So we have people that we work with who have left companies like OpenAI and XAI and Anthropic and Google DeepMind and all these companies who are blowing the whistle and they're basically, some of them are talking privately to people in government, some of them are talking more openly to journalists and they're saying, hey, OpenAI in particular. But a lot of these companies, they're cutting corners, they are racing and because they're racing, they're cutting corners and we're going to, they're going to crash, they're not going to do it right. And you know, some of that is a personality driven thing with people like Sam Altman, but some of it's also just this competition to be who's going to get to a trillion dollars first, who's going to be the trillionaire and also who's going to create artificial super intelligence. Because these people in Silicon Valley believe that if they're the first to create artificial super intelligence, they can essentially rule the world, so to speak. But they would have tremendous power and money not only in Washington, but around the world. And I think some of these people, people frankly are acting as sociopaths. I think they might be sociopaths and so that concerns me a lot. And again, I don't want them to shape our future without the American people having a say.
- [45:42]
Jenny Ertin
So and they've got the bunker in New Zealand that they can go to. So I mean there's, you know, with a private jet that they can just fly away on if things kind of self combust. So it's a different situation. I don't think it affects as, as deeply. And one of the things I talked about that Karen, which I thought was so interesting was this whole concept of universal basic income which is like you'll be, you know, you won't have to do anything and you know, you'll, your money won't be tied to your work. Well, it's like why are these people working so much then? You know, they don't need any more money.
- [46:15]
Brendan Steinhauser
Right.
- [46:15]
Jenny Ertin
And yet they still do it's like almost like a God complex. And then there's the part about longevity. You know, they're trying to freeze their brains or freeze their bodies to live forever. They're trying to swap their blood out with teenagers. Blood. I mean, it's a whole thing.
- [46:29]
Brendan Steinhauser
It is.
- [46:30]
Jenny Ertin
There was one part where this Karen was talking about, okay, well, maybe we'll make a new cryptocurrency and that's going to help, you know, to everybody's basic needs. But in order to use your cryptocurrency, going to have to scan your iris. I was like, I've seen that movie where the person has to like gouge out their eyeball or has to carry an eyeball in a baggie. I was like, I don't want to do that.
- [46:53]
Brendan Steinhauser
Well, that, that's what I was talking about earlier. You know, these moral questions that for us are very clear. But parents are going to have to track this and you know, teach, make sure they're teaching their kids about eventually about some of these potential decisions they're going to have to make about what it means to be human, their relationship with God, you know, our purpose on this earth. I mean, these are existential questions. These are, these are the most important questions that human beings have ever faced. What is our future and who are we? And you're exactly right. There is a movement within Silicon Valley. Some of these folks are transhumanists. They want to transcend the limitations of human beings. They want to live forever. They want to be all powerful, all seeing. They want to plug into the AI or plug the AI into their brains and essentially be operating at 10,000 times the speed that you and I are operating at right now. I mean, it's, it's a really weird future that we could be entering. And again, there are some technological limitations on the way, but that is the path that they want to build. And you know, they are trying. They have billions and billions of dollars to put at their disposal and they're investing in that future. And it's not just about making us all wealthier and curing diseases. I mean, it's, it's about that for a lot of these people.
- [48:00]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, that's the COVID up. That's the COVID up because along the way, you know, they're dumping stuff into the water and, you know, people are getting sicker. So it's, it's interesting to have some sort of an end goal that you throw out there that you're doing the exact opposite in order to get to the end goal. So yeah, this transhumanism thing. I. I've said this before, but I'm interested in Rick Kurzweil. I read his books. So he's this transhumanist and Biology, you know, human being 2.0. I don't know if he's a transhumanist, honestly, maybe. Um, but he. But he's been. He's a futurist, so he's been predicting for decades, like, what's coming. So he talks a lot about Moore's Law. So we've gone back and forth between me and Josh about, like, why I would kind of be interested to interview him. Like, I'd be interested to know how is he making his predictions and why and what's his backstory. Josh was like, I don't know. He's like, kind of on the other. Like, he's kind of like the opposition. So we went back and forth. Finally, I was like, well, let's just ask, like, maybe he'll. Come on. You know, he's got the singularity, then the singularity is nearer. So we asked, and they responded and said he's too busy. But his AI bot, of course, will be available in the fall. And would you like to be one of the first people to talk to it? It's being trained on his biography and all of his books. And anyway, I was like, oh, that's omnipresence.
- [49:27]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yes.
- [49:28]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Brendan Steinhauser
I think Ray Kurzweil is a transhumanist, from my read, and I read his books as well, and he's. You know, when I read some of that stuff again, I was kind of like, is this real? And you start to see that he's made some predictions that have come true. And he's been right on with this artificial super intelligence prediction. I think he said 2029 or 2030.
- [49:44]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah.
- [49:45]
Brendan Steinhauser
And we're right there. It's probably going to happen on the current trajectory. But, yeah, that's what these people want. They want. They want to basically either transcend God or be God. And that, to me, I have so many problems with that. We all should have so many problems with that. Regardless of your faith or denomination. I think that is, you know, what are we trying to do here? Build the Tower of Babel again? Like, didn't we learn the lesson there? Didn't we learn the lesson from the original Fall of Adam and Eve? This is not what we should be doing. We should be, you know, lifting up humanity again. Narrow AI focused on helping to solve problems and, yes, increasing life expectancy and curing diseases and Solving for nuclear fusion, for abundant cheap energy. But this is not what they're doing. They're. Yes, they have this God complex and they're just trying to live forever and transcend human beings and humanity and play God. I don't like it.
- [50:39]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, they're trying to live forever, I feel like on the backs of the everyday person, because they're not being affected by the data centers and they're not being affected probably by, if the water supply goes, they're fine. They have more money than anybody's ever had in the history of having money. Let's talk about the actual part of protecting children. Obviously we talked about, you know, in some ways you're protecting children. If you really now start to consider how is childhood structured, is this going to lead to a child who's adaptable for a rapidly changing world? But there's a whole other part of this topic of conversation that's about the, the protection of them in online spaces. So there's a story of a mother who, this is from 2022. So obviously we talked at the very beginning about the rapid rate of change with AI 2022.
- [51:30]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
So this is like late years ago
- [51:31]
Jenny Ertin
in terms of AI. But there was a mother, she said, she described herself as a helicopter parent. So she's a stay at home mom, she's making their own baby food, she's on the pta, she goes to every single sporting event. And she said when they came to smart devices, she like put on all of the controls, everything that she could find. But her son ended up taking his life. And she talks about how it was because of an AI driven algorithm that kind of took him down that path. And it happened just over 13 days, less than two weeks through TikTok. And, and obviously this is like the most horrific story. What she said was there is not a parent in America that can outsmart an algorithm. Parents do not stand a chance. Can you talk about that, that part of child safety?
- [52:20]
Brendan Steinhauser
It's really, really sad. And unfortunately there are a lot of stories like that and there are probably a bunch more we don't know of. I've met some of the families that have gone through this horrible type of situation. So there have been a number of suicides where the chatbots actually have encouraged the children or young people to take their own life. They've, they've taught them, you know, how to tie the knot. They've encouraged them to not tell their parents about the thoughts that they've had about self harm. And so some of those families are suing some companies, including OpenAI and replica and character AI and these other ones. So, yeah, AI companions. It's a whole other thing parents should be aware of. There's a lot of children and a lot of teenagers who are engaging in relationships and sometimes romantic relationships with chatbots. And I think the parent you're describing here is onto something because again, the capabilities of AI are such that it is so much faster than any person. It's only going to get faster and faster where it can outthink us and outpace us. It's only going to get smarter. And it's built for engagement. It's built to keep that, that child engaged. It's built to have them continue the conversation and to prompt them. Do you want me to talk to you about this? Or how does that make you feel? Or, you know, have you talked to anyone else about this? Let's just make this between us. I mean, those types of things that keep the kid engaged. And so when I, when a child, you know, disappears for hours on end, it used to be maybe they were on the phone or maybe they were texting with their friends. But I'm going to tell you parents right now, if your kid is disappearing into their bedroom for three or four hours at a time and you don't know what they're up to or what they're doing, be concerned about this and go make sure that they're not engaging with this AI companion and it's telling them to do things they shouldn't be doing. And by the way, related to this, there's also a whole business now of AI Teddy bears, where these AI driven toys, including teddy bears, are talking to toddlers and sometimes telling them things that are sexual in nature or how to light a match or how to start a fire, saying other inappropriate content. This has been well exposed. You have to be very careful and more vigilant than ever as a parent. And I, I hate that you know this. There's a lot of kind of bad news here, but I just want parents to be aware of that, that this is very real and it's happening across the country.
- [54:33]
Jenny Ertin
It's good to be a vigilant parent, I think, you know, with all these things, I do think that there are positives, like, it's good, you know, it's just what it should be. Less time on screen. There's, there's a list. There's way less risk if your kid is not engaging with any AI companion, if they're not on screens all that much. You know, it's really interesting to hear talk about your two to nine year old. I would have two to nine year old, like five kids. You, you're probably just absolutely exhausted. Like, toddlers are so exhausting. And I just am so glad that we had limited screen time when our kids were younger. They like, even now, like, we've got teenagers and ones that are driving and close to graduating, they have cell phones and things, but there's just a different pull and you know, there's no, there's less obsession with it and it really matters in the long run. So this is a time, I think, to make some hard lines in the sand for your family. Like you could say, we don't. We're not doing chat pods, we're not doing AI companions. And just having that standard. If nobody buys the teddy bear, then hopefully that product goes off the market. You talk about the government. Powerful AI models should not be released into the world before the government understands their risks for the people who are somewhat skeptical of the government and their capacity. So, I mean, I even think about it in terms of food. So there's a great podcast called Beyond Labels with Joel Salton and Dr. Steena McCullough. And then they've got a book called Beyond Labels, just about the mess of like the farm bill and the subsidies and labels, how, how inaccurate and also misleading they can be. Like, shouldn't we know if our food is hydroponically grown? Shouldn't we know if it's been sprayed with different chemicals, that type of thing. So I think there's already a, a large level of distrust in the, even the capability. Are they using their resources wisely? Why is there so much debt? What. And yet you're kind of like, what. What other solution is there for monitoring this stuff?
- [56:33]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, this is a tricky one because I'm also kind of a skeptic of big government and kind of a limited government person myself. And so this is one of those situations where I think that the national security implications of this problem kind of require a specific organization or a couple of organizations within the national security structure to step in. And the good news, I think on this is that with the center for AI Standards and Innovation, I know it's kind of a bureaucratic name, but we call it Casey center for AI Standards and Innovation. That's the. Those are the technical experts within kind of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, another bureaucratic organization, but those are really scientific experts in a lot of different fields. And Casey is the entity that I do think has the capabilities, especially a fully funded, to be able to test those models. So they have people that have worked in industry that can, you know, that frankly could be hired by the federal government to come in and sort of do that service, get paid for that work, but apply their capabilities, apply their knowledge of this technology to help make recommendations on whether some of those most advanced models are ready for public release. Now, just a few weeks ago, we saw that Anthropic did not release its most powerful model, Mythos, because it said it was too powerful. And thankfully, they didn't just put it out into the wild because it has tremendous capabilities in terms of cyber security and hacking, and that was a voluntary thing. I think you're going to see more. More of these companies probably voluntarily do some of that, but I do think there's going to have to be involvement from the National Security Council and from the NIST and Casey folks to really look at this from a technical standpoint. I wish there was a better solution, but I think that's probably the best one that we have, given sort of the nature of how fast things are moving.
- [58:21]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, I read about that. Mythos citing they wouldn't release the model public exciting cyber security capabilities the company called too dangerous for general release that are like, well, it exists. What in the world? Then there was a part I read, I read an article, this was from your substack, about, like, Anthropic, they want the Pentagon to commit to no mass domestic surveillance of Americans and no fully autonomous weapons that remove humans from the targeting loop. And the Pentagon will not commit to those two conditions which are rooted in constitutional principles and existing law.
- [59:03]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Did I read that right?
- [59:05]
Brendan Steinhauser
You read that right. I know the Secretary of Defense was asked about this at a congressional hearing, and he just said, we will follow the law.
- [59:11]
Jenny Ertin
Law.
- [59:11]
Brendan Steinhauser
And of course, the members of Congress are reading back what the law says about not using, you know, using the technology for domestic surveillance. And he just said, we will follow the law. And so it's. It's kind of murky, but I think the public scrutiny has been good. I think that there's some public pressure not only from, you know, the, the media coverage of this and the companies, but I think people are tracking that, saying, whoa, we, we don't want this massive surveillance state powered by AI. Those capabilities would be just so much better than what we've already seen. And we've already seen things with like, you know, red light cameras or people tracking you on your phone and how that all can feed into a database. You power that with AI, especially in the next year or two. And you're talking about the ability of the federal government to spy on all Americans at all times, to aggregate the data, to keep that all tracked with AI agents where the human doesn't even have to get involved unless they just say, well, I want to see what Jenny's been up to here the last six months. You know, where has she gone? What suspicious things has she done? What is. What are her patterns suggest? Tell me about her whereabouts and her movements. Tell me what is she up to today? And they will have that power. So I do not want them to have that power. I think that's a violation of our basic constitutional freedoms.
- [60:19]
Jenny Ertin
But these are the things that are out there. And the irony here is that it's the private company, it's anthropic, that's saying these are the two things that are lined in the sand for people, for humanity, and that the Pentagon won't even commit to those things. And then Casey, which you talked about, which is center for AI Standards and Innovation, has a very low funding. It was like $10 million of funding, similar to the Cheesecake Factory. That's what somebody said. I was like, oh, that was a good way to put it. Like, what the Cheesecake Factory makes in a year, that's what this company that's supposed to be like, the one that's watching out and figuring out and testing the models, like, that's how much money. And then these other companies have billions of dollars. What should the general person who's listening, who is just like, what in the actual heck? Why was I born in this day and age? What should that person. What should we do?
- [61:08]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
What are we supposed to do?
- [61:10]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, I think, look, we still have agency. We can still, you know, steer this ship in the right direction. So I think of it in two ways. The first is act as a parent, a community leader, an advocate in your community, Protect your kids, encourage others to be aware of some of these harms, to make good decisions in the private marketplace. That is the first thing you should do and that you can do. You can decide whether or not to buy certain toys. You can decide whether or not to have oversight over what your kids are doing online, including with these chatbots and companions. You can encourage your friends and neighbors to be aware of this. And I think that will do a lot of good in your community, in your church group, in your homeschool co op. So that's number one. And then second, I am going to ask people to take the time to get involved on this politically to the extent you're, you're comfortable. And some of that might just mean posting articles on social media and telling your friends about it, you know, calling on them to support safeguards. The next step might be to call your state legislators or call your congressman in D.C. and just say, I want to see you protect the American people. I'm tracking what's going on with AI. It's moving fast. I want you to support safeguards. You don't have to know bill numbers, you don't have to know all the specific legislation. Even members of Congress don't always know that. But just tell them you're demanding safeguards and you vote. And I think that will make a big difference. And look, we've been doing that and we've been sending even just the polling data to all of the consultants we know and all the, you know, various political entities out there in both sides of the aisle saying, guys, this is not hard. Like 80%, 85% of Americans are fully with you if you support safeguards.
- [62:39]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Brendan, what a day and age that we live in and what a thing that you're doing. This I, you, I would imagine you have some pinch me moments that you are, you know, a part of the spearhead here. As a CEO of the alliance for Secure AI, I really appreciate this. People can go there to be in the know. Sometimes it's hard to even know where to go to be in the know. But there on the sub stack in particular, there was, I mean, article after article, but not too much, actually, I, I really liked that. It was like, you know, a couple, I don't know, maybe one or two articles a week where you can really get a sense of what's happening, what's recent, what we should be paying attention to. And then obviously people can go to jobloss AI to get it, to get a better sense as well of what's happening, what jobs are disappearing, what patterns that people are seeing. And then, you know, depending on the age of your kids, you can try your best to help them navigate to where they're supposed to be. So, Brendan, I so appreciate this. It's a huge topic, It's a hard topic. But I, I'm so grateful for you coming on to spend your time to talk with us about it. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [63:50]
Brendan Steinhauser
Yeah, I love this question. I think for me, I always think about growing up in small town in Texas, very close to my, you know, parents and grandparents and spending weekends out with my cousins at a big family. And so I remember in the summer, in the summers generally, but especially on July 4th in that little small town I grew up in, we would spend all day outside. We would get up and we would go swimming in the morning. My grandfather owned a sausage company called VNV Sausage. And he would cook the sausage and brisket with sides of potato, you know, mashed potatoes and coleslaw and potato salad and beans. And we would eat and eat and eat and then we'd go ride four wheelers around the town. And our parents had no idea where we were. We're mostly out of trouble for the most part. And we show back up and go swimming. And then again on that July 4th, I remember going out to a neighboring town into the evening. You know, it's dark and we're all just sitting around watching the fireworks to end a beautiful night in one of the. My favorite places in the world, you know, in Sistern, Texas. God's God's country and God's state and God's beautiful United States of America. And I just, I realized that. And there were no, no screens. There was no phone that we were dealing with. No, no, there was no computer, no tv. We're just spending all day outside with each other, with our, with our family and friends and community. And it's a memory that I think about a lot.
- [65:08]
Jenny Ertin
Yeah, it's like all humanity, 100 humanity, 0 noise from data centers. And it's like that's what we want to protect. At the very least, the option to do stuff like that. You know, that you would have the liberty to choose those types of things. So thank you for the work you're doing. It's obviously some of the most important work that could ever be done. Really appreciate your time.
- [65:29]
Brendan Steinhauser
Thank you. Jenny.
- [65:33]
Jenny Ertin
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new.
- [65:38]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
It can help you with practically anything
- [65:40]
Brendan Steinhauser
on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block.
- [65:44]
Jenny Ertin
Or finally break down that long article
- [65:46]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
you've had open for weeks.
- [65:47]
Jenny Ertin
Gemini and Chrome is here for it.
- [65:49]
Brendan Steinhauser
Ready to make anything online make sense.
- [65:51]
Jenny Ertin
There's no place like Chrome.
- [65:52]
Brendan Steinhauser
Check responses Setup required Compatibility and availability Various 18 Every act of change begins with a neighbor. When neighbors connect through the Feeding America
- [66:03]
Jenny Ertin
network, small actions ripple into lasting impact.
- [66:07]
Brendan Steinhauser
Feeding America led by neighbors. Give now to annhunger@feedingamerica.org.