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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 852: Parenting Is Supposed to Be Fun | Dr. Robyn Koslowitz, Post-Traumatic Parenting
00:53:42
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- [00:01]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
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- [00:31]
Jenny Erich
1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Erich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I write a fantastic book. I learned so much from this book. It is called Post Traumatic Parenting. Break the cycle and become the parent you always wanted to be. The author who has her own podcast. It is called Post Traumatic Parenting, just like the title of the book. Dr. Robin Kozowitz, welcome.
- [00:53]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Thanks so much for having me. I love being on podcasts that I actually listen to because it feels like, yay, I finally got to talk to this person. Oh, I love it.
- [01:01]
Jenny Erich
I love your book. I've got so many notes here and I learned a tremendous amount. And I feel this is probably the, the book of our times, which is like, dealing with like, we all want to be good parents, but then we all have some baggage from our past. You're like, well, how? There was a question in here that was so deep, like, how do you give your kids a normal childhood if you didn't have one? So you tell you your story in this book about your four parts of trauma, but you use this phrase, I've never heard it. Robin, the trauma of absence. Can you talk about what that is and maybe a little bit of how you experience that in your life? Because I never heard of this.
- [01:43]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
So the trauma of absence, which is not my term, I learned it, I think, first from Dr. Deborah Korn is the idea of all the things that didn't happen for you, possibly because of what did happen to you or possibly because of what did happen to your parents. So it's things like, you know, coming home from school and there was no one there to tell about something upsetting that happened that day, or not having a normal, a normative childhood experience that everybody else has, you know, there's no one there, right? So because there are so many things where we sort of expect there to be a parent there, there to be a supportive figure there, and when those things don't happen for you, you know, I've met young, you know, especially Young moms who will about like, I don't know how to teach my kid how to ride a bike. No one ever taught me how to ride a bike. So I don't know how you do that. Or, you know, no one ever took me for routine dental care. So I don't know how you talk a kid through being nervous at the dentist's office because I never had that. I'm still dealing with my own teeth and the horrible, you know, you know, health things that can sometimes happen when you don't get routine medical care. So I'm still dealing with that. And now I'm supposed to take my kid. I don't know. I don't know how you do that. How do you take your kid to the dentist? How often are you supposed to go, like, all the things that just didn't happen for you that you sometimes don't even know about until you're an adult and you tell someone about your childhood maybe and they say like, oh. Or you realize what you don't know. You realize the gaps you have when you're giving it to your own kid and you're like, wait, no one ever did that for me.
- [03:20]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, yeah. And then you talk about even, you know, the things that just sort of happen in life. Like in your personal story, there was just medical stuff. You know, you had a dad who had medical issues, and so then, you know, that really affects you as a young child and then obviously as a teen and then you lose your dad. And that's like an incredibly traumatic experience. But I really had never considered about, you know, the situations where the wording you used is trauma isn't only what happened to you, it's also about what didn't happen for you. Like, did you not get to go play with friends? Or, you know, did you always kind of feel on edge because someone had a heart condition or health condition? And everyone's just preoccupied with that. So the one of the stories that you told that was so heart wrenching and so many of them were. But you're like trying to do your schoolwork in an ambulance, and then the teacher's like, this handwriting is sloppy.
- [04:15]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I have sloppy handwriting even without that. But, you know, the idea, I think also was I was just trying to have a normal childhood and fit the childhood things around something very big. So it didn't occur to me that you tell that to the teacher. Right. Or that you would explain yourself. It was just like, well, next time I'll try to write neater in the ambulance. But it never occurred to me to explain myself. It just didn't feel like. I just felt like the teacher said I did something bad, so I did something bad. So I'm sorry. You know, I'll try harder next time. I think that happens to a lot of kids where children don't know what's normal and what's not normal. They think whatever happens in their lives are normal. I remember working with a young mom who was tragically widowed, like, very suddenly, and one of her kids came home from school and just said, you know, in some families, there's a mommy and a daddy. Like, there's two grown ups in the house. Because why would he know, right? Until kindergarten, why would he know?
- [05:19]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, sure.
- [05:20]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like, not everybody's daddy is in heaven, which is what, you know, she said about her. About her husband. Right. Like, your daddy's in heaven and, you know, whatever.
- [05:27]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [05:27]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Every faith tradition is going to have their way of explaining death to a child. Your daddy's in heaven. Some people's daddies aren't in heaven. And, you know, it was so heartbreaking for her to hear and for me to hear, but it kind of makes sense. How would he know that before kindergarten?
- [05:40]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. Yeah. So you kicked this book off talking about your own experience of this trauma of absence, but then also acute trauma where your dad passes away, and it's in the middle of the night and you're having to help. You're trying to give cpr. And then there was a girl in your class that also passed away. So can you talk about one of the things then that carried into your parenting, which what you said and I thought was so interesting? Robin, you're like, okay, this actually makes me pretty good in the workplace. You know, I can kind of, like, focus in. I can kind of dis. Dissociate. Disassociate. I don't even know how you say that word, you know, but I. In. In the work setting, this is working out really well for me. You know, I can ignore this or ignore that and just kind of hyper focus. But then you have kids and you're like, well, this actually is not working in the family setting. So can you talk about your experience there of dissociating? And your kids, they're so perceptive, they would even notice.
- [06:36]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. So one of the ways I learned to cope with my trauma was to dissociate, which means you sort of become a brain and not a body. So I would just go into whether it was a fantasy world of reading, whether it was doing My work, like, my homework. But I was in this little bit of a pink cloud, and I would feel totally calm when I was dissociated. So stuff could be going on in my house, right? When I was a kid, my father could be having a heart episode. You know, things could be stressful. But I was in Narnia, you know, where I was in math homework. I was not there. And then my brain really learned how to do that. And in the book, I talk about this concept called the trauma app, which I believe is your trauma creates a coping tool, and then that becomes automatic. And for me, my trauma app would be like, if stressed, dissociate and dissociation worked really well for me. There were times in my life that it was great. Like, in the workplace, I can focus for hours. You know, like, people talk about a flow state, and they're like, oh, it's so hard to get into one. It's hard for me to get out of one, right? Like, I can, like, work, and literally the house could be on fire around me. I wouldn't notice. Once I'm dialed in, I'm dialed in. Like, I have my headphones on and I am focused. And it worked really well for me. It worked at work, it worked at school. The first time it stopped working was when my son actually pointed it out to me. And my kids would complain about it. And. And I remember even having that thought of reading books about parenting. And it talks about being, like, a present parent, and it would be like, well, if I'm present, then I will get stressed out, and then I will yell, and that can't be good. So how can I be present? So I was, like, physically present, but my brain would go somewhere else. Like, most of my brain would be on my work or on something else that I would not be concentrating on, like, in the moment, on my kids, until when my son was 10 years old. And this was, like. Actually what I spoke about in my TEDx talk was this moment where when my son was 10 years old, he looked at me and he said, mommy, where do you go when you go away behind your eyes? And he started to cry. So it was almost like, shoot, I'm busted. Like, Like. And I just remember looking at him and thinking, well, what do you want from me? Like, I'm. It was if he said to me, mommy, you're five feet tall. And, like, I need my mom to be six feet tall, so you need to grow another foot. Like, what do you want me to do? I go away behind my eyes like, this is me. Like, I have brown eyes. I have brown hair. Like. Like, these things, like, aren't gonna change. I mean, I guess I could, like, put on a pink wig or something, but, like, my hair's my hair, My eye color is my eye color.
- [09:12]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [09:12]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
My height's my height. It's not changing. I could associate, like, this is me. But that's when I realized I really need to go back into therapy because I need to get a handle on what I always thought of was this, like, wonderfully adaptive superpower. Like, this is great. I can just associate and feel no stress. Yeah, but it was taking. It was like malware. It was taking me over. I didn't have a choice.
- [09:36]
Jenny Erich
What a perceptive thing for a child to say. Was it hard? Like, I feel like sometimes there's, like, regret there. 10 years old. You're, like, halfway through childhood. Were you sad at all that? Like, you didn't realize it sooner?
- [09:51]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yes, I know. I think that I'm glad that I didn't yell when they were little. I think that baby and a toddler can, you know, sometimes mistake the thought for the deed. Meaning, like, if the parent is there, it feels like they're thinking about me, even if they're not. So I think in those years, it wasn't great. And I've had younger children since where I was more present. And for me, the joys of motherhood in that time, like, putting myself fully into it, it was so healing and wonderful. So I lost something. I have a great relationship with that son today. He's an adult now. I actually just came back from visiting him. He'. College. So, like, you know, we. I have some regret, but I think, like, my story is my story. Like, I. That was my journey, you know, And I wasn't going to change. I mean, I had friends who said it to me, like, some. I had a friend once who, like, really got upset when we were in sleep. You know, in sleepaway camp when I was. I don't know, we're probably staff members at that point. I was probably, like, 17. And she said, you know, I hate when you space out. I think it's weird and, like, it's creepy. And I'd just be like, okay, that's me. Like, I space out sometimes. Like, I wasn't going to change because my friend thought it was creepy. You know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, okay. That's like telling me that, like, being 5ft tall doesn't work for me. Being your friend, like, okay, that's me. Like, noted. I'LL try not to. Of course, I'm not like a rude person who doesn't care about her friends. But at the same token, it was like, it's literally like you're saying to me, I hate that you're short. Like, I can't change that. It never even occurred to me that I could. It was just like, okay, I guess don't be friends with me then, like, right. Like, this is me. Whereas my son, it's was like, wait a minute, I need to do something about this. Because for your kids, you'll do something that you won't do for anybody else.
- [11:38]
Jenny Erich
It's true. It's true. And motherhood helps you grow. So if you're listening to this and you relate, you talk about how you are a very good technician of parenting. You said I did good story time. I'm good at playing with the kids. Yeah. What? I'm good at playing with kids. Like, in your background, you got all these toys. You know, you're like working with families, working with kids. Yet when I was playing with my own kids, I didn't feel the deep connection I wanted. It felt more like I was playing with a patient in my clinic. I was organized about supper time and bath time and bedtime, but I wasn't living parenting. I looked calm, but I was not connecting. For me, parenting was just another chore on the list. So what you show in this book, post Traumatic Parenting talk about on your podcast with the same name, is that there are a lot of ways that these different types of trauma, whether it's acute or trauma of absence, can show up in these different types of parenting styles, like the entangled parent or the perfectionist parent or the disengaged parent. And you go through and talk about different, different ways to realize it, and then also how you can help the survivor parent, the paralyzed parent. And you open with these questions that I think are really relatable. Do you feel bad for your children because they are unlucky to have you for a parent? Do you feel depleted by the chaos in your home? Do you think someone, anyone else would be a better parent for your child than you? And these questions go on and on. So before we hop into some of these different types of, I guess, types of parenting styles, that's probably the wrong word, but some of the different types of things that can pop up if you've experienced trauma. I thought this was such a big deal. You say this is like in you're talking about, how do you give your kids a normal childhood if you didn't have one. What's normal? You know, I know I didn't have a childhood like you see on tv. How can I give my kids a stable childhood when my life is such is so chaotic. But you say many of us were never taught how to connect to children with delight while also teaching skills. Can you talk about that piece?
- [13:32]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Part of attachment? We talk a lot about attachment theory, right? And we hear about it a lot in parenting. Part of attachment is this concept of attunement where, like, we're sort of on the same wavelength and it's about delighting in our children, that mutual joy. Like, this is my kid and oh, wow. Like, this is amazing. Like, you're just. You're just like the most awesome thing in the universe. And this is my mommy and this is my daddy, and this is my. Whoever my grown up is that I just delight in, right? And we love each other and like, we're one. And that sense of like, just shared joy in the world, right? Like the first time you're outside with a kid and like, they notice that leaves are crunchy underfoot or that snowflakes are different shapes, right? And it's just like, whoa, look at this. And you're supposed to delight together in this mutual world that your kid is discovering and you're rediscovering. And we forget that because attachment, especially nowadays, the way. Way it's communicated about it seems very fraught. It's like, it's like there are corners of the Internet where it's like, don't you dare do this or you will harm attachment. And then your child will be in therapy forever, right? And the truth is, attachment can be. It's a survival. It's a survival mechanism, attachment, right? And anything that's a survival mechanism is meant to be noxious and loud. It's meant to intrude on our attention. It's meant to get our attention. But there's the other piece of sheared delight and joy. Parenting supposed to be fun, right? And when we lose the joy, that's really sad. And a lot of us lose the joy because of our trauma backgrounds. Like, I'm not going to knock that. I was organized. I was. I was a mom of twins. And when you were a mom of twins, you need to be organized, right? You have two little chaos engines running around. And the only way to manage things is to have like, bedtimes and supper times and story times and bath times. Like, all of that was good, but there was no me in it, right? With my younger kids, there was more me in it. So I'm not going to knock it on any parent who is, like, very reliant on their schedules. And, you know, that's a good thing. It's good because nowadays, especially with, like, the amount of Internet exposure we have, natural bedtimes are a thing of the past. So it's good to be organized and efficient, but it's. But we don't want to lose the joy.
- [15:44]
Jenny Erich
Yes. And so this goes into one of the types of parents that you talk about, which is the disengaged parent. And there was a couple of things in here that really stood out to me. You say you can't outsource presence. There's no substitute for you, and you can't outsource you. One of the things that you talked about in particular, and I think in this day and age, I just read a book recently where I talked about how, like, in 1925, that it was, we're talking about men, probably more, because maybe men were working out of the home. I'm not sure. But it said they had 40 hours of leisure time a week. And then by 1980, something, my dates are all wrong, but it was like they had 17 hours and they've lost 23 hours of leisure time every single week. That's a lot. So what you're talking about here is that in parenting, there is no deadline to butt up against. In this case, procrastination isn't the thief of time, but the thief of relationships. And I thought, this is huge. If you really think about it, it's basically like so many things can pull you away. Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:44]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
And it's true. And it's.
- [16:46]
Jenny Erich
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- [20:27]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
we beat up on ourselves because those pressures are very real. Right. The fact is, Covid really messed us up when it came to bosses expecting immediate answers to texts in middle of the night or, you know, the fact that we can't even have a snow day anymore because then we'll just go to zoom school.
- [20:44]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [20:45]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like, there are no natural breaks anymore in the work day.
- [20:49]
Jenny Erich
Yeah.
- [20:50]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
The way we used to have. And that's sad. Right? That's a, that there's a certain. Because then there's no fortuitous time with our kids. There's no like, oh, cool, school's off today. Let's spend time together. Like, I can't get into the office. You guys can't get into school. Let's have a snowball fight. Right. It doesn't exist anymore the way it used to. There's, I mean, let's not knock the, you know, wonderfulness that you and I are communicating over Zuma. We don't have to travel to like a mutually, you know, no accessible location to do this interview. It's nice. But then at the same token, there's a real trade off. And. Yeah, so when you were talking about the styles, we're talking about defaults. Post traumatic parents tend to default into certain types based on the trauma they experienced in their childhood. And I find that people tend to notice the type that they, that they default to the most in the book. So, like when I'm interviewed and people are like, oh my gosh, the paralyzed parent. Oh my gosh, the perfectionist parent. I'm like, you're. You just, just, you just resonate with that type. You and I are both that type that goes to disengaged work can sometimes feel a little safer than home or a little safer than, you know, the emotional storm that is parenting. Or sometimes, like, for me, it was like, I just need to save you from my damage. Like, I felt like such a hot mess inside that, like, if I stay a step removed from you guys, and I'm the technician and my husband is the present parent, and I was lucky that I was married to, like, a husband who. He really is a father, like, by personality. He likes a relationship with kids. He's a dad in the best sense of the word, because if he wouldn't have been taking that relationship slack, that really would have been hard for the kids. Like, they would have had two technicians. For parents, that's not good. But disengagement is a default. It's a way for some of us who learned how to be productive in our childhood, how to be human doing not human beings. Right. Like, that it's hard to parent and be present.
- [22:51]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, I think. Well, another thing I got out of it was that it. The screens also could make it more tricky because there was a story that you gave where the mom and daughter are getting a pedicure together, and they're like, it's mommy daughter Day. But they were both on their screens. And so you say in structure, yes, they're having mommy daughter Day, but not necessarily in function. So that can really affect. There's. There's just a. There's an escape button that's, like, immediately available.
- [23:23]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. It was so sad because I was there at this beauty parlor, just, I don't know, getting my nails done or whatever, and I was watching this. And that's the thing where, you know, only amateurs fight for free as, like, you know, who was it? Muhammad Ali, I think, said. I don't remember who it was who said that. But the idea that, like, I'm not here right now to. To, you know, be a therapist, I'm not gonna tap this woman on the shoulder and say, think about what you're doing here. It's frustrating. I normally don't. I turn the Dr. Kozlots off in my real life. Like, nobody's asking for my opinion unless they're, like, in my office. And, like, I'm just a regular mom in the neighborhood. I. I had a teacher, one of. One of my kids, be like, I feel so judged because you're my kid. I'm like, what. What am I giving off? She's like, no, I just know that you're Dr. Kaslowitz. I'm like, I'm just Bailey's mom, right? Like, that's, that's who I am right now. In the context of, like, I don't know, this third or fourth grade classroom, that's it. I'm like, here to bring misshapen cupcakes in for her birthday. Like, that's what I am. But watching that, I really felt sad because it was. And I guess sometimes when you write a book, you get to say the things you can't actually say to the person in their real life, but it was just so sad because that's not Mommy Daughter Day. Mommy Daughter Day. I mean, yesterday I had just like this routine appointment for far, far away from my town. We're talking like an hour and a half drive that ended up becoming a two hour drive because of traffic. And my third grader was like, I hate when you go away. Even though, like, her big sister was. Her big sisters in high school was babysitting her. And she was like, I don't want you to go. I said, you know, why don't you come with me? Like, just to share the ride with me and we can chat. And we had so much fun. I said, it's gonna be boring. I'm just going to a doctor's appointment. Like, we're gonna drive, whatever. We can stop at 7:11 on the way home and get Slurpees like that. But, like, it's not exciting. Like, you're not going anywhere fun. Maybe they' will be, I don't know, a screen in the waiting room that you can watch Gabby's Dollhouse or something. I don't know, like, but other than that, it's not going to be fun. We're gonna be in the car for a long time. She's like, I don't care. I want to come with you. So she came with me and it was just. We just chatted, right? I didn't turn on music and I didn't turn on a podcast and I didn't, you know, take work calls. We just chatted and it was so much fun.
- [25:32]
Jenny Erich
Right?
- [25:33]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
That's a Mommy Daughter day. Although we didn't have a Mommy Daughter Day. It's not like we went to the beauty parlor, but like, that mom and daughter was just watching such a. A sad missed opportunity. Shut off your phone. She can shut her phone, sit in chairs next to each other, get pedicures and chat and talk about and that sheer delight, right? This is so fun. Like, right? Like we're having this date together. What color toenail polish are you picking? That's what a Mommy Daughter Day should be. I mean, whether it's Mommy Daughter Day, whether you're playing a game together, whatever you're doing, you should be doing it together.
- [26:03]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. I think I love the premise of the book because when you like announce it or frame it in this way of, well, I. If I didn't have a normal childhood, what am I supposed to do? And then you can, like you said, sort of see yourself in these different types of parents, like the entangled parent or the perfectionist parent of the disengaged. It helps you to realize where you need to adjust. So you wrote, parenting requires your full attention, even though it's frequently hard and sometimes it's boring. And when you say there's no deadline to butt up against, it's such an interesting one because really there is a deadline. It's. It's kind of long term. I mean, childhood does end. It made me think about like, is there a different way I could think about like this is the only day my kid's going to be, you know, 11 and a half or this is only this only season that they're going to be a toddler. You wrote you could be a stay at home mom and be a totally disengaged parent busying yourself with home decor or gardening or there are people that are chronically. They chronically under earn money so that they can always be busy. So it's something to be aware of. There's no substitute for you. You can't outsource presence. Another one that you talk about is the perfectionist. And you say one of the use universal truths about parenting is that sometimes bad stuff happens. And so that's it. I mean, that's another type, like you said, that can come out of traumatic experiences as a child where then the child is. Then the parent is maybe trying to control more than they're able to control you. You talk about a book called the Book Eraser.
- [27:32]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Oh, I love that book.
- [27:33]
Jenny Erich
Can you talk about that book and how it helps?
- [27:36]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. It's by a husband wife team, Anna King and Christopher Wyant. They're great picture book authors. I love their books. But it's about this eraser that's really sad because he doesn't seem to get to do anything right. The pencil gets to draw and the crayons get to do art and the paintbrush gets to paint. But all he does is clean up mistakes. And he feels like that's not fun until he realizes this truth, that repairing is just as important as creating.
- [28:06]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [28:07]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like in Fact, it's even better. You wouldn't be able to boldly draw with your pencil if you didn't have an eraser to fix the mistakes. And he realizes that he contributes to society, right? And I think about that a lot because, you know, it's not the rupture, it's the repair, right? Repair is so important in parenting. Sometimes we're gonna make mistakes. Like, the universal truth is every parent in the world is gonna have that morning where the kid says, my tummy hurts. I'm not going to school. And you say, no, no, you're fine. You're gonna go to school. This is schoolitis. Or this is, you know, you don't want to take a spelling test. And then they go to school and they throw up in the nurse's office, and you pick them up and they're like, you see? Right? Every parent at one point or another is gonna make a mistake like that. That's the universal mistake that we sometimes make make. And that's okay because then they'll come home and you're going to attend to them, and you're going to be extra nurturing and extra kind. And if anything, your relationship will grow from that, right? Your kid will give you feedback about something you did. And you're not going to be like the parents of maybe the 60s and 70s and be like, how dare you tell your parent that they're anything less than perfect? You're going to say, yeah, that landed hard. I'm sorry. Let's see what we can do next time to fix it. Right? And you're going to have that repair conversation with them, and the relationship gets stronger. But perfectionist parents don't realize that, right? And I'll tell you what it comes from. It's interesting. I was just doing a workshop. I do, like, I consult in a lot of schools, and I was doing a social and emotional learning workshop in a school, and we were talking about the three levels of stress where there's normal positive stress, right? There's regular stress, like taking a hike in the woods, right? And then there's tolerable stress. Like the forest ranger warns you that it's bear season and there might be bears, right? So it's like expected tolerable stress, or you see a bear in the distance, right? Or. And that's sort of like a fire drill in school, a role in the school play, a final, a midterm, right? It's tolerable, it's expected. It's stressful. It's not fun. You know, a car Swerves into your lane, and you quickly react and swerve out of the lane.
- [30:12]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, Right.
- [30:13]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Your heart rate spikes, but you can manage it. And then there's toxic stress.
- [30:17]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [30:17]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Which is like, you know, in the analogy of the walk in the woods. So you see a bear, you run away from the bear, and that's the tolerable stress. And you run home, and you slam the door behind you. Yay, I'm safe. And then it's a horror movie, and you turn around and the bear is in your house.
- [30:33]
Jenny Erich
Right? Yeah.
- [30:34]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
That's toxic stress. That's what it's like growing up maybe with an abusive parent or in a really chaotic home, or in a home where there's abuse and, you know, where you're always in stress. Or a home like mine where nobody meant to be abusive at all, but it was just so scary all the time. It was so fraught all the time. Like, is somebody dying right now? And what happens is when you grow up with toxic stress, you look at your kids having normal, tolerable, expected stress, and you think, this is terrible. I need to not let that happen. When really, no, it's not toxic stress. Like the starring role in the school play is going to be stressful. Algebra midterm is gonna be stressful. You know, like, I don't need to shield them from it. I don't need to write them an excuse note that, like, my kid can't take time, tests or whatever. They need to be stressed out, and then they need to come home and recover, and we need to talk about we've learned from the experience, and then we need to move on.
- [31:25]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [31:26]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
The stress is not the enemy. Avoiding the stress is the enemy. But we don't see that because if. If our stress was so difficult, we just want to shield our kids from it because we don't realize that there's three levels.
- [31:38]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. And so this is what you're guiding people through in the book, which is what happened in your childhood, and how might that be affecting the way that you parent? You are. All healthy parents are uncomfortable watching their kids be uncomfortable, but these perfectionist parents, they have just a lot more anxiety worrying about a slew of what ifs. Additionally, you said this could also come from growing up in a chronically invalidating environment. How does that connect?
- [32:02]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. So, like, some people grow up in an environment where they're always being criticized, they're always being micromanaged, or their emotions never matter. So if, you know, they say something, the parent, rather, let's say they're giving a parent feedback like, don't, like, like, could you not yell at me, please? Or something like that. And the parents like, I'm not yelling. You're just too sensitive. Right. Where they're constantly second guessing themselves. In the book, I talk about someone who was raised with a stepmom who used to gaslight her, who anything she did was wrong. Right. When you grow up like that, you really do as much as you think, like, oh, she, you know, my stepmom was a piece of work. You still, even though you might know that, you still end up second guessing yourself. Because when you're a little kid and someone is constantly putting the worst possible interpretation on your behavior and on your actions, you know, when someone's constantly convincing you of your own badness, then you just believe it, because little kids are very naive. And we believe what grown ups tell us. It's just a fact.
- [33:12]
Jenny Erich
Yeah. She wrote, perfectionism is the ultimate effort to control ourselves, to create some sense of safety within us. And then you go through just different ideas of things that can help you actually talk about. You're an integrationist. You know, you go through all these different types of things. There's a lot of them, a lot of things that you can help. So in this, this particular section, you're talking about ifs therapy. So there's just a lot of insight into, oh, like maybe I'm a little off here. Yeah, I think that that's a super valuable part. It really gives you a sense of, oh, like this is, maybe I'm doing this thing that not everybody else does. You know, I'm trying to keep it perfect or, you know, I'm fairly disengaged, or I, you know, I'm, I have mom rage. You know, I'm, I'm entangled, I'm paralyzed. You know, I, I feel like I can't, I can't make any choices. I'm frozen. I'm just surviving. So it gives you a really good sense of what to look out for. And then also, what are some things that could help if you find that you're in that type of situation? You talked about something that I've never heard of before, Robin, that parents, if they come from these trauma backgrounds, might be envious of their children.
- [34:23]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah, this is something that comes up over and over again in post traumatic parenting classes and in groups when I do, like, process groups about the class where people will be afraid to say this, they say, like, sometimes I'm jealous of my own kids. Like, what is wrong with me? What Kind of a terrible parent. But the truth is, we all have inner children, right? And I just look at inner child as, like, a metaphor, almost a ghost of, like, the U of the past that didn't resolve something, right? When your inner child witnesses your children getting something that you never got, your inner child's gonna be jealous. Your inner child's gonna feel envy, right? Like, I wish I had that. And that's so normal. Your kids will never know how lucky they are. Like, they will never know, because how could they know? They don't even know what your childhood was like, even if you tell them. Like, my children know that my dad died, right? My children know that I did CPR on him. some point, my children did have to know about my flashbacks, only because was my flashbacks are visible and scary, so I had to figure out how to explain them. In fact, the whole project for writing this book was when I was a grad student, I was pregnant. I was panicked because I was, like, searching in the library for research on how do you explain flashbacks to a toddler? Because I'm like, this baby's gonna be born, and she's gonna start growing up, and I'm gonna have a flashback in front of her. How am I gonna explain that to her? Like, she'll be so scared, right? And then I remember also being so panicked because I read this. This parenting book about and it said that co sleeping is the only way to promote attachment. I have really violent flashbacks in middle of the night. If I co slept with a baby, that would be very bad for that baby, right? Like, that baby might not survive that experience. I am not a restful sleeper at all. I'm lucky that my husband happens to be a very deep sleeper, because I really am. I, like, really, really have bad nightmares and flashbacks even to this day, even after years of therapy. Depends when I'm better than I used to be. But I remember reading that book and thinking, like, wait, if my kid needs to go sleep with me, and I absolutely cannot co sleep with my kid, so my kid's doomed already. Like, I'm pregnant and my kid's already doomed. Like, that feeling was just so devastating. And you do sometimes explain some of your stuff to your kids. You know, if you had an abusive parent and you're keeping your kid away from them, and your kid's like, why can't we go to grandma's house, right? At some point, you do have to, in developmentally appropriate language, explain, right? And at the same token, they still will never know how lucky they are. Because if they did, you would be doing something wrong. Right. If you actually explained. Like, it's one thing to say, you know, let's say I recently had this in a post traumatic parenting class. Someone said, how do I explain to my, like, toddlers that, like, we go to Thanksgiving, but we leave after an hour? Because, like, once the alcohol comes out, my family is just scary to be around. For me to be able to say something like, you know, we're gonna go to grandma and grandpa for an hour on Thanksgiving and then we're gonna leave. Because when. When grandpa drinks alcohol, he sometimes gets mean. And I want you to only experience nice, friendly grandpa. It's my job to protect you. So we're gonna go away not. And not talk about the years of abuse mom experience and not burden the kid with that and not be like, you know, what happened to me on Thanksgiving when I was your age? Like, we're not telling the kid that. That's for your therapist, your best friend, maybe your spouse. That's who those things are for. But it's not for your 5 year old. So we're going to say it developmentally, appropriately. They're still not going to know how lucky they are. Maybe they will when they're 35, but possibly not.
- [37:48]
Jenny Erich
Yeah.
- [37:48]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
And that's good, right? That means we did our job well.
- [37:51]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was glad you wrote about it because I could see that it would be something that's difficult to talk about. You wouldn't bring up being envious of your child or wishing you were your kid. So that's in the book. And then if we were going to hit one more of the types of parenting that maybe someone would default to because of childhood trauma. I thought the Survivor parent one was really interesting, basically because one of the things you said, which I thought was just. It sounds so simple but, like, also so freeing. You're like, this is the parent that's just in Survivor mode all the time. Their bandwidth is gone, you know, like, I have no margin. But you say family game night is actually a parenting skill you can learn. So there's like a lot of hope there for. I think sometimes when you're in certain seasons, you're like, oh, I'm gonna have to do so much to get out of this. It feels so heavy. It feels so frantic. I'm gonna have to learn all of these things. And then you throw family game night in there. And I thought, oh, it's so light. Really? And also that it's a skill that you can learn. So can you Talk about how sometimes in some of the situations, there can be small steps that you start to take that really change things.
- [39:00]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. I think, you know what we were saying before about how, you know, there's no deadline on parenting, but they're is because, like, my kid will only be 11 and a half right now. There's sometimes this joy of, like, meeting your kids and getting to know them at the age and stage that they're at, like, this unfolding human. And sometimes when you're in survival mode, which is just, like, all I can do is keep my head above water and, like, keep myself and the little humans alive, like, that's it. I have the bandwidth for. Because something major just happened. I'm in a crunch time. I don't know, I'm an accountant and it's tax season, or it's, you know, someone just died or like, we went through a major. I had so many people who are like, I feel like I've been in survivor mode for, like, three years and I'm just waking up now. I had someone, I remember it was so striking in a class, she said that one minute I'm living in, like, one state, and I have, this is my job, this is my spouse. These are my kids. This is my life. And then Covid happened. Her business fell apart, her marriage fell apart, she lost her house. She had to move back to her home state to where her parents are, and suddenly it's five years later, and she's just like, wait, what just happened? Yeah, right. And that's what survivor mode is. Right? We freeze for a while and we're just keeping our kids alive. But one way out of survival mode is still remembering to have some fun even with all the chaos. Like, the chaos is still chaotic even if we spend half an hour playing Candyland. You know what I mean? Like, the house will be just as messy whether we spend that those 20 minutes or not.
- [40:27]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [40:27]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
So sometimes it's remembering to look for moments of joy, even though that feels almost irresponsible.
- [40:34]
Jenny Erich
I love it. Just family game night. It's going to be your path out of survival mode so that you can parent from your value. So that's another part of the book is figuring out what are your parenting values. And I think by learning about these different types of parenting situations that you could be in because of your childhood, it helps you to learn about maybe what your values might be. You say parenting is a mirror, a map, and a motivator out of trauma, which is such a great message, Robin, because people talk about how in society today there's a lot of negativity surrounding parenting because it's hard. Maybe you don't want to choose it. But this on the other hand is saying, look, this is a motivator to make some good changes for you and truly think about what kind of a life that you want to have. Can you talk about your system that you came up R2 parenting?
- [41:20]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah. I think that we make parenting so complicated. There are so many books about parenting and they make it sound like if you don't follow exactly what this book says to do, your kids are like messed up forever and you've just committed a grave sin. Really, the truth is, and I think we've gone a little far with gentle parenting, although I think it was a correction that needed to come. Really what matters in parenting, it boils down to our two responsive and responsible. We want to, on the one hand, be kind, caring, attuned. We want to hear about our kids emotions. We want to validate them. We want to teach them emotional, you know, literacy and understanding themselves. And then we also are responsible to help our kids navigate the demands of the world. We also have to teach them about things like, you know, healthy bedtimes and doing your homework, even if it's not fun and you know, eating the food that you're, that your body likes more than the food that your tongue is, you know, craving.
- [42:18]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [42:18]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like, just like those basic, you got to brush your teeth.
- [42:21]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [42:22]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like I've got to do what's responsible. We can't be so responsive that we forget responsible. And we can't be so responsible that we forget responsive. And I think the 80s we were so responsible we forgot responsive. And then gentle parenting came and went. Like, were we responsive? Responsive without responsible. And the truth is you got to do both. It's a seesaw. You have to keep it balanced.
- [42:39]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, yeah. And then you go through all the different stages, the inner child stages both for the adult, I think, to like help figure out maybe where things went awry. But I also think it would be really helpful for you as a parent to know that, you know, at stage four, age seven to 10, and you know, there's, there's comparing against other kids, you know, can I make it in the world of people and things, am I as good as the other kids? So it's really helpful to learn. And you wrote, what was unraveled can be re knitted, which is such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful statement, such a hopeful statement. I was interested in the journaling exercises because I think a lot of books will have questions at the end of a chapter and they're good questions. Maybe some in depth kind of open ended questions. But these journaling prompts, and there are a lot of them, they're sprinkled all the way throughout the book. The book's called Post Traumatic Parenting. They're really in depth. You know, it'll be like a whole, a whole pullout section on, you know, what is this? You know, a whole page. The first one that I wrote down in my notes is what's your trauma? So you say, I don't specify any particular or best way to keep a journal. Any way that works for you is great. It could be video, it could be audio, you could type, write, create art, etc. But can you talk about the practice of journaling, why you put it in the book, and how you think that could help the reader?
- [44:02]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
I think that sometimes we need, we need reflection, right? We need someone to sort of reflect back to us. But sometimes we are the someone who can reflect ourselves back to us. And you know, therapy is nice and talking to someone else who gives you some guided questions is nice, but sometimes you really need to go in depth and ask yourself questions. And really I noticed this myself in my own therapy that the best part for me of therapy was the way home from therapy because it was a far drive from my house. I would actually voice note a journal to myself. And it really enhanced therapy because therapy was like this 45 minutes and like, okay, that happened. Like she pointed something out to me or I restructured something that I thought was one. The story was about one thing, but really it was about something else. And then as I'm driving home, I'm voice noting to myself. And then, you know, there are transcription apps, so I was able to sort of turn it into a journal. I realized how valuable that was because that was me doing my own work. Right. And me asking myself the questions that only I can ask myself. And that's really what journaling is. It's giving yourself a moment. Some of us like to meditate and things like that, and some of us don't. Some of us like to be more narrative about it. There's not just one way to get insight and to like understand yourself. But for me, I find journaling to be, be very helpful in really understanding myself and really also clarifying my thinking and clarifying my values and what I want.
- [45:33]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, and that's, it's really in depth. I was really impressed with that. I was like, wow, this is a really in depth journaling exercises. And they're just sprinkled in. It's not like an afterthought. You know, sometimes there'll be a book and, you know, at the end of the chapter there'll be these different questions, which, like I said, I think those are great, great prompts of reflection. But this is sprinkled throughout the entire book where you're reading about something like trying to figure out what your values are or, you know, what was your trauma? What was your childhood like? What were your chronic traumas? What were your ongoing struggles? And it's just so robust. It's so robust. Now think of your biggest parenting challenge or mishap. The parenting mistake you wish you could rewrite the situation that you still cringe at when you think about how you handle it. Look at your list and bring up that memory. At the same time, can you connect? Can you see how your trauma could have influenced your behavior and that you didn't intentionally cause harm? You know, then you can say, that behavior wasn't me, it was my trauma, and I can learn to handle my trauma and parent better. Try saying that last sentence out loud in front of a mirror. So this is just one of the journaling exercises that is all these questions that kind of lead you to that ending point. So I thought that was a really, really unique thing about this book. Post traumatic Parenting, you say this. I have a strong belief that kids should not be exposed to social media until they are 21.
- [46:56]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah, it's a strong, strong, strong belief. Like, it's a hill I'll die on. I think I look at myself and I look at when I was trying to build the platform for the book, right? And I went on social media completely as someone who was like, I was never gonna do that, right? Like, I was like, eh, Instagram, I don't care. I just didn't want social media. I couldn't wrap my mind around why people would spend their time on it. But then I, you know, got an agent and I needed a platform for a book. And that meant going on to social media. And there were some very good parts of it, right? I met the post traumatic parenting community. I met other people like me who are on this journey. I got to teach classes to so many people who had that essential question of, like, how can I give my kids a normal childhood if mine was anything but? And that was so valuable. But at the same token, I. Social media does a number like algorithms do a number on your brain when it comes to, you know, likes and shares and reposts and which reel does well and what doesn't do well. And you know, it can feel, it can grab your attention in a way that doesn't feel very healthy. And I think when your brain is developing, that's really bad for you. I've had patients like, like, like teenagers who sleep with their phones under their pillows. So if there's like a notification on TikTok or someone mentions them or whatever, it will buzz and wake them up. That's like volunteering to have a newborn baby for your entire high school years without the newborn baby.
- [48:21]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [48:21]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Like as the trade off. That's crazy.
- [48:24]
Jenny Erich
Like, that.
- [48:24]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
I'm sorry, that was judgmental language. But like, I would not volunteer for that level of sleep deprivation. Right. Like, just for. Who mentioned my name on TikTok at 2 in the morning? Like sleep. Right. It's not, you know, and I think that's really, really scary and really, really doing things to the neurochemistry of a teenage brain. So that's my. That's the hill I'll die on. Like, don't do it. And if someone's like, well, what if my kid wants to become an influencer? Well, don't, like, wait. Wait till adulthood. I mean, I think we saw from the Ruby Frankie story, like, I think we really saw what algorithms can do to parenting or can do to a child's childhood. I just think it's too risky.
- [49:09]
Jenny Erich
I mean, I wonder if that's its own set of small traumas all the way through. You know, the. Yeah, the sort of sticky web that you're caught into it, that you're addicted, that maybe on a day to day basis you're feeling either bullied or left out or not seen or why isn't this working or frustrated. I just thought 21 was interesting because when people started to talk about 16, you're like, oh, that's later. Then a lot of people are getting on social media and then some people are saying 18. And then you're like, I say 21.
- [49:41]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah, well, yeah, that's not. Your brain is not fully myelinated till 21. Your. Your personality only starts to really like define itself at 21. I think that your personality should define itself before you expose your personality to a toxic stressor. So, you know, and, and I think there's a growing trend of young people who are mindfully getting bricked phones. Like, they want cell phones that text. Like phones of the early 2000s that text and maybe take pictures and maybe have a directions app and that's it. I don't actually want any of these other things on my phone.
- [50:21]
Jenny Erich
Do you know what I saw recently, Robin? And I thought it was so brilliant someone made. And I don't think it's out yet. Maybe it was like, like a Kickstarter. It was, someone had made a little. It was like a square. And it, it looked. The screen of. It kind of looked phone ish, but it wasn't a phone. And it, what it could do, I think I saw it briefly was like it had maps on it, it could take pictures. It, you know, maybe it could get your Uber or whatever, but it wasn't a phone. And so, like, you don't have social media on it. And I thought, oh, that's a really interesting thing to have a device like that because it's the problem, right? It's like, well, people are like, I can't get rid of my phone because what about Uber? You know? Right. So I thought, oh, gosh, that's actually a really brilliant solution. People are coming out with great solutions. You know, if you have something that just has the apps that you need for, like business, but doesn't have a social media and it, it's not your phone, and then you can have the flip phone or whatever. I'm like, that actually would solve a lot. So you say a strong belief that kids should not be exposed to social media until they're 21. And to kind of wrap up here, one thing, another thing that really stuck out to me and we just kind of scratched surface on this book. I have so many notes, but it's called post traumatic parenting. Was. I think that you can get overwhelmed with like your gap, right? Like, oh, where I want to be, what are my values? This is where I'm at. I'm struggling. I had all these things that happen in childhood. How do I get to where I want to be? My kids are going to be damaged because they're getting some of the residual effects of what happened. But you said the intolerable part of trauma, like, what makes it intolerable? Right?
- [51:56]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
That's what it says.
- [51:57]
Jenny Erich
The intolerable part is when you have to make sense of it alone. And so I feel like that gave a lot of, I don't know, like, breath of relief. Because even if you're in a situation where you're still working through things, as long as your work help, as long as you're even close community, as long as you're present with your child, it's not going to be quite as intolerable. Am I saying that Correctly.
- [52:23]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Right. I think that's what we forget that. That we forget that your kid is not you. Your kid has you.
- [52:28]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [52:29]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
And that is the difference. Right. It's not the toxic stress that you had. It's the tolerable stress because you'll be there to support them through it. Like, it will be okay.
- [52:40]
Jenny Erich
Right.
- [52:40]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
The. There's something important about a kid having a very upsetting experience, but the parent is there. Right. You know, you swing and miss at the game, or, you know, you get up on stage to sing your solo and you. Your voice cracks or you get a bad mark on the midterm you studied for, or your best friend says she doesn't like you anymore, whatever it is, but you're there. That's such an important experience for the psyche.
- [53:04]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, I love that. It was really an in depth book of a lot of topics that I was not aware of. And I feel like it helped me to understand more. Like, what are the normal things, what are the abnormal things that helps you to grow, helps you to understand these stages of childhood. All the journal prompts. You fit a lot in this actually, Robin. You fit a lot in this book. Yeah. It's called Post Traumatic parenting. Break the cycle and become the parent you always wanted to be. Came out last year. And also people can check out your YouTube and your podcast. Your podcast is on YouTube, post traumatic parenting and your website, Dr. Robin Kitz. I'll put the link in the show notes so people can just click and go. This is about how to give kids a normal childhood if you didn't have one. Parenting requires your full attention. It's a beautiful book. I really appreciate your time. I loved the book. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [53:54]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
I think the favorite memory from my childhood is before my dad got sick when he taught me how to ride a bike and he was running down the block with me and like, you know, holding on to the back of that like, banana. Banana seat thing and, you know, encouraging me to go. And then like the first time, like, I circled the block myself and he was there waiting and, you know, so proud of me.
- [54:16]
Jenny Erich
Yeah.
- [54:16]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Yeah.
- [54:17]
Jenny Erich
What a great wrap up. You know, that is such an interesting thing. Like, typically you crash a couple times and you cry, but it's. It is a really good depiction of like, letting your child go, pushing them just a little bit, like being there, being their community for when they fall over, hit the tree or, you know, run into the ditch or whatever and have to try again. I love. I love that. I love it. Robyn, thanks for all you're doing and thanks for spending this time with us today.
- [54:40]
Dr. Robin Kaslowitz
Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciated this conversation. I appreciated how closely you read the book because that's so meaningful to have that kind of conversation.
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