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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 885: The Courage to Keep Going | Max Lucado, Unshakeable Courage
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I don't know exactly when it happened, but somewhere along the way, adulthood turned into having a folder full of things you hope you never actually need. Birth certificates, passports, warranties.
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B
RA welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours outside and back for the third time. Such an honor for me. I can hardly believe it. Max Lucado, welcome.
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C
Thank you so much, Jenny. It's terrific to see you. You look great. I hope you're doing well.
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B
I am doing well. It's the middle of the summer, so it's a fun time. It's a fun time to have family and to be outside. And I had the opportunity of reading your new book that comes out in August. This is a book about Elijah. I've always loved that ver verse that said Elijah was a man just like us and he prayed that it would not rain. And it did not rain in the land for three and a half years. I love that one, even since I was a kid. Really shows the power of. Of a normal person, a man just like us, you know? And you have the. It says human being just like us in the book. That was the version. But I. I've always loved that verse. So it was such a treat to get to read your book. Unbreakable courage, strong faith in an age of anxiety, chaos and exhaustion. Phenomenal, phenomenal things in when you feel alone about when you Feel discouraged about trusting God for provision, about when you have enemies, about solitude, about remaining strong in tough times, about prayer. What a book. So many things that you're going to learn about how God is a promise maker and a promise keeper. It's a wonderful. And especially in this day and age, like you talk about, of anxiety, chaos, in exhaustion. Can we talk about the fact that you have 150 million products in print and I loved it in this book, how you talked about you had a sense that you were supposed to write books and other people were like, no, you shouldn't do that. What if you change what you think down the road? That's too hard. You might be wasting your time. Only celebrities get published. But you did it. And now here you are, the what it be, the best selling inspirational authority of all time. So can you talk about to the person who has, you know, I don't know theologically I'm going to get it wrong, but they just know God is leading them to do something. Other people might be naysayers, but you did it anyway.
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C
We all have a divine spark, Jenny. I think an assignment that, that, that is foreordained, that that is planned, that the reason we're on this earth in this generation is because he also equipped us with a certain skill set that this generation needs. And that's all part of God's sovereign plan. And to find that unique assignment in life is a wonderful thing. And to miss that unique assignment is a difficult thing. There's nothing more exciting than being in the center of God's will. And nothing more discouraging than not knowing your spot. And I had a sense early in my life that I loved books and I loved words. Not. My conversion experience was, was pretty dramatic at the age of 20. And by the time I was 22 or 23, I decided to go to seminary. And I was the only seminarian who did not begrudge writing papers. And you can imagine lots of papers have to be written. And I realized I love putting pen to paper or today putting fingers on keyboards. I just loved it. I loved it then and I love it still. And yeah, I set out to write a book and three mentors, three heroes of mine, each of them said, don't go down that path. And that story figured into Elijah. As we unpack the wonderful story of Elijah, on one occasion, he's in a desolate village and he is obeying what God has told him to do, where God said, a widow will take care of you. But she didn't have it. She didn't have the resources, take care of herself, her son, much less prophet Elijah. So I included this story about my life in that particular chapter because God gave the widow what she needed, provided for Elijah and her son. And I believe when God gives us a calling, he'll give us the resources to fulfill that.
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B
Oh, that was one of my favorite lines in the book you write. It's been over 40 years. Well, first of all, you told in this book Unbreakable Courage that you did put together your first manuscript. You're working on this book from 10pm till midnight. In your 20s, you say your dad was a mechanic. You know, your uncles are railroad workers. You know, you come from. There's all these people around your cowboys. You're like, well, I'm going to write a book. And so you work really hard to get this manuscript, and 14 out of 15 publishers reject it. And then in the final one, the very last one, they you, eureka. They said, yes. And then you said, it's been over 40 years and more than 40 books. I seem to have more book ideas than time to write them. My jar has never grown empty. So that's referring to this jar where this widow was able to make food. So let's talk about this making food and provision, because we're trying to get outdoors. And there are so many biblical references about getting outdoors, all of these spirits, spiritual lessons, so many of them are tied to nature. And so if you take your kids outside, you have a lot of opportunities to talk about these different verses. So this one is about ravens. And it comes in this. If you're reading it in Luke, there is this parable of the rich young ruler. You can jump in if I'm wrong. And he's filling his storehouses. And then God says to him, you fool. This very night the messengers of God will demand your soul from you. And all these things that you have prepared, whose will they be? So it is with the one who continues to lay up and hoard possessions for himself and is not rich in relation to God. This is how he fares. Then Jesus said to his disciples, therefore I tell you, do not be anxious and troubled with cares about your life as to what you will have to eat or about your body. What you will wear for life is more than food, and the body is more than clothes. Observe and consider the ravens. For they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them of how much more worth are you than the birds? So you gotta consider the ravens, which means you need to go Outside. And so in a day and age when kids are only outside for four to seven minutes, but they're on screens for four to seven hours, this is a thing. And so I, I think from the spiritual side, we encourage kids to go outside to look at the ravens. So the ravens bring Elijah food. And this is consistent with ravens, crows. There's all sorts of stories about things like that of these birds interacting with humans. So can you talk about how in, in the book you explain this is possibly for a long time that God is providing for Elijah through his creation through the ravens, and then this is teaching Elijah to depend on God for provision.
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C
Yeah, and maybe a little context would help too, in case some of our listeners are trying to remember who is Elijah? What did he do? When did he. Well, he was this prophet, a wild and woolly prophet. He was not fatherly like Abraham. He was not pastoral like Peter. He was not a scholar like Paul. He was a, he, he was a gadfly. He was a tornado on the open prairie. He, he appears in scripture, his story primarily described in the Book of First Kings. He appeared somewhere around 875 B.C. and he appeared, and this is really important. He appears in the story of, of, of God's work during a time of immorality, utter free fall. There's a reason that nobody names their kids Ahab and Jezebel. King Ahab, Queen Jezebel were just as evil as they come. And we're talking here about an evil that is as depraved as anything. They worship the, the God baal. And BAAL celebrated blatant sexuality and bloodshed. It was a time in which, as tragic as it sounds, prostitution was accepted in the temple and child sacrifice was accepted. You can't imagine, you cannot imagine more ear disrespect given to the pursuit of God. But here, the King and Queen of Israel were leading the charge. They were funding the support of over 800 prophets, prophets to Baal. So this was the day and age in which Elijah lived. And the reason I think this story is, is relevant. And we're going to get to the ravens and, and Keira Ravin here, just a second. But I do think in our day and age, we feel outnumbered in our faith. We, we find it difficult as you lead us so well protect our children from the onslaught of media messages, immorality, influence. Just yesterday I had lunch with a, a, a young college student who's truly battling anxiety. I mean, it is just eating him up, these panic attacks and, and he talked, he goes to a very he's home for the summer. He's, he's, he's anxious about making grades, anxious about pleasing professors, and everywhere he turns, he's being compared. It's a very competitive world in which we live. And, and, and so I think there's parallels between the culture of, of Elijah and the culture of our day. And that's why I think this book is, is really important. Do you want me to keep talking about the ravens and how they figure into the story? Sure, sure, I zoomed out.
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B
But what an interesting parallel. Thank you for zooming out. By the way. It's an important one to zoom out too, because you may not be familiar with the story or you may be familiar with the story and be like, well, which one's Elijah and which one's.
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C
There's Elijah and there's Isaiah. Yeah, we can get these names confused.
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B
So thank you. Thank you for zooming out. What an interesting parallel about the, the sacrifice of children. And I think some would maybe say that, you know, obviously it's different in some ways, but that the, the childhood of children's are being sacrificed in a major way.
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C
Good point. I think that's a great point. And children were simply not valued in the BAAL worshiping culture. Violence was valued and we, in our culture, violence. I mean, how many times does a child see a murder on television? You know, by the time he's 16 or 17 years old, we get anesthesized to the violence in our world. And Elijah, Elijah. So, so, so the Elijah story is a story of a culture that was about to go over the deep end. Right. It was the whole nation of Israel, which biblically speaking, the nation of Israel is, is precious to God by covenant. He made a covenant with the people of Israel through whom he would bring in to the world his son, his Messiah. So Satan has known from the get go that if he wants to destroy God's plan, he has to attack God's people. And this was a season only a hundred years removed from the construction of Solomon's temple. So there was a time of golden faith just a hundred years earlier. Yet within a matter of generations, they had abandoned worship in the temple and were primarily those who sought God through the God of Israel had to go into hiding. And, and that's why Elijah's story matters to us.
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Yeah. And what he's standing for is, is children in part.
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C
Yeah. Children and faith. Yeah.
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Yes. And so this may be how you feel. This is what you write. You versus them. You are outnumbered, outpaced, outdone, outgunned outmaneuvered, out there in the tempest, all alone, the odds are against you. So you may feel that way. There's so much parallel here to where we're at in society. So you may feel outnumbered, but you never will be outmaneuvered because God is with you. And this is this sort of premise of this story. And if you feel you're trying to protect your kid's childhood, if you're trying to protect faith, there's a lot in here that you're going to get from this book. It's called Unbreakable Courage. So let's talk about the beginning of this. Where Elijah then is, has solitude, he has time alone. Now we're talking to a lot of moms. They, they don't have any solitude, no time alone. But there is this, this purposeful silence. And so that may look like setting your phones down a little bit more, not being so drawn into media. And you talk about, you know, the headphones and the earbuds and the social media. Society has a constant chatter. But he has this period of isolation and complete provision from God. So let's talk about the ravens. But then also the concept of remembering it really reminded me like I should be writing things down. Answers to prayer. Because when he goes to the widow and he has to make this huge trek you talk about, it's like a hundred miles through the desert, basically dry land during this drought. He has to do this 100 mile hike and then he ends up with this widow who's like, I don't have anything for you. That he's able to remember that God provided for him for, you know, possibly a year with these ravens.
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C
So after Elijah made his appearance in the throne room of Ahab and Jezebel and declared that the God of Israel was not going to allow rain to come upon the earth until he said so, until God commanded, he was banished and he went into hiding. He went back into kind of his territory across the Jordan Rivers, the badlands of Israel. And there he was, he was just in solitude. It's an interesting time. It's like an extended Sabbath. God sent him into this ravine. It's called Kirith K E R I T H And there, like you say, for at least a year, maybe longer, he depended entirely upon ravens to bring him food and the water in a brook. And at some point the water dries up and the signal is sent that he needs to go. And go from Kirith Ravin across the desert, a hundred mile walk in the midst of a drought, knowing that he is a wanted man, wanted by Ahab and Jezebel. Even. So he obeys and he goes to Zarephath, which interestingly is the hometown of Jezebel. So it's not going to be friendly territory. So Elijah is put to the test in the immediately after you. You would think that having confronted a lot Ahab and Jezebel that that God would send Elijah on a preaching tour or a miracle tour, something to but he sends him into solitude. And I thank you so much for bringing this up because I thought that was good. I need more solitude in my own life. I, I, I'm, I, I find myself fighting the urge to always be clicking or tuning in or watching or you know, participating or what's the next event? What's my schedule? There's, there is something that maybe I'm speaking to someone who can relate. Maybe I have a. I don't like silence. Maybe I don't like solitude. Now I like silence. And solit television is on. But if I'm just sitting there, you know, just being still in the presence of the Lord, well, that's what Elijah did. And through those months and months of silence and solitude, God shaped his character. And that's why this is important. We do live in a very chit chatty society. And to spend time alone, just silent, trusting God for his word and his bread was something that I call it faith development 101. Elijah needed this later because like we said in Zarephath, he was needing to know if God could provide. And he had already learned that God would.
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Yes, from the ravens.
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One of my favorite things about kids is that when they're outside, they aren't thinking about how they look or whether they're fitting in. They're climbing trees, jumping in lakes, running through fields and just being kids. And honestly, I want my girls to keep feeling that same freedom as they get older, even after they start their periods. Now that we have teenage girls and we're heading into another school year, I've realized that confidence matters just as much as comfort. That's one of the reasons why we've loved KT by Nyx. KT Period underwear looks and feels just like regular underwear, but it's reusable and comes in different absorbencies depending on where they're at in their cycle. There are fun colors and styles that they're actually one to wear. And some styles absorb up to 11 super tampons worth with front to back protection. Whether they're sitting in through classes, playing sports, headed to youth group or spending an afternoon over at a friend's house. They're not worrying about leaks or constantly checking their clothes. They just get to focus on being kids. Honestly, where was this when I was growing up? So if you have a teen girl, I would hands down recommend kt. It's not just underwear, it's giving our girls the confidence they deserve. Go to nixteen.com that's K-N-X teen.com and use code 1000hours for 15 off. That's K N I X teen.com code 1000hours there's something exciting about the beginning of a new homeschool year. Fresh notebooks, new books, new goals, and the opportunity to build habits that can carry your family through the months ahead. The first few weeks are often about finding your rhythm and having the right tools can make that process a whole lot smoother. IXL is an award winning online learning platform designed to fit seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice in math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged, and gives parents a clear view of their progress. One feature I especially appreciate is the real time feedback. Kids receive immediate explanations as they work and parents can see detailed progress reports that highlight strengths and areas to reinforce. It's a thoughtful way to help children build confidence while settling into a new grade level in a new school year. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and the 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. This episode is sponsored by Active Skin Repair and this is one of those products that has earned a permanent place in our house. We have used it for years because honestly, when you spend your life outside, bumps and scrapes just come with the territory. I've joked before that it is pretty hard to scrape your knee while sitting inside playing video games, but a scab on a child's knee around here that is almost a badge of honor. It usually means they were climbing a tree, riding a bike, building a fort, exploring the woods, or simply living the kind of childhood that leaves stories behind.
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That's exactly why we always keep Active
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A
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B
There's a new book out. It's called Considering Sparrows. It's by this pastor named Kevin Burrell. It's so beautiful. It's one of my favorites. I'll send one to your church if you haven't gotten one. But it's what birds teach us about who we are, where we're going, and the joy of following Jesus. And he calls himself an ornitheologist.
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C
Yeah, theology.
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B
And so he talks in here about the ravens and the crows. And he says the ravens are the original doordash. And then he talks about the crows and how personable they are. And he tells these stories about how they bring gifts. They bring random objects, bolts and screws, earrings, buttons, random plastic objects, a pearl colored heart charm to the people that they've connected with. And one, there was another story where someone had dropped their camera lens, but they were connected with the birds in the area. And the bird brought the camera. It was the cut the cap to the camera lens. Yeah, those fall off so easily. The bird had brought the camera lens back and had washed it.
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C
What? You're kidding me.
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B
So incredible the. The capacity of these birds, the thoughtfulness. I. I love learning about these things. And I think with our children we can find the wonder in all of.
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C
And you're a Nate, you're a nature nerd. That's a good thing to be nerdy about.
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B
It is, I think, the truth that the ravens could have brought him food. This is the. In the nature of a raven for this year. Can you talk about though, to talk to those who are grappling with the question of provision. So you write, if it's God's will, it's God's bill. If God gives A task. He'll give the tools. So you were talking about your particular story of being in your 20s and you're going to move to Rio de Jane de Janeiro. I think that's how people say it. And you, you like, I don't have the provision for this. And then Bob came through.
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C
This is one of the great stories in my whole life. I wish everybody could have met Bob Forkham. Here's the short version of it. You're right. I was preparing to go to Brazil. I was engaged to Denalyn. We were a year away from moving. We were living in Miami, Florida. The church was considering providing my as a missionary, and then the church decided not to. That was a hard thing for me to attend. The elders, they were good men, and I don't know all the reasons, but for whatever reason, they said, we just can't put you in the budget. So there I was, a year away from moving. I'd already made the pledge to move. I had a wife to support. I had a salary that I needed. And the church had at that time, a midweek prayer service. And Bob Forkham was present at that prayer service. Now, here's what you need to know about Bob. By that time, Bob was in his mid-70s. He was retired from a job with the US government. He had moved to Miami, Florida. He was a very modest, humble person in terms of possessions. He was kind of boisterous in his personality. He played golf with a guy one day who had started a restaurant in Miami. Now we're back in the 1960s. The restaurant he was going to call Burger King.
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B
Wait, this is like the ground level of Burger King?
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C
Yeah. And so. So by the end of the first round of golf, the guy had convinced Bob to be the first. What's called franchisee. In other words, you buy the rights to build the restaurant in certain areas. So Bob bought the rights to build Burger Kings in central Florida and also North Carolina, because that's where he grew up. So he paid $10,000 Bob did, which was a chunk out of his savings. Well, fast forward a few years, and Bob has a lot, a lot of money, and he's a good man. You know, some people are wealthy, and you kind of resent it. Some people are wealthy, and you just say, praise the Lord for them. God bless them. And Bob was one of those. So in this prayer meeting, you're gonna love this. In this prayer meeting, Bob knew that I needed a salary. And so he prayed out loud in front of the whole church, lord, if you'll give me one More franchise. I will pay Max's salary. Now, I never had a conversation with Bob about the theologically correctness of doing that. I don't think we need to go to God, say, if you'll do this, I'll do that. But that's a topic for when I see Bob in heaven. But you know what? That, that opportunity came to Bob within a week. And Bob and Elsie, his wife, wrote Dinalin and me a check each month and mailed it to our supporting bank in the United States, which gave us a salary each month for five years. And it was just a beautiful example to me of how if, if it is God's will, it is God's bill. He will provide. He will provide. I know sometimes we struggle with that. We. We want to know. And so when we're waiting on the Lord, just continue listening, listening to say, okay, is this my call? Have these circumstances work together to call me to create a podcast like you have, or write a book like others have, or go to, or create a Christian camp, you know, something like that. If, if it's God's will, he's going to provide. He will. You just stay faithful. And he may not provide when you want, even to the amount that you want, but he will give you what you need to accomplish his will. And that's what happened in Zarephath with the widow. And that's what happened in the life of Elijah, over and over and over again. Yes, thanks for letting me talk about Bob. He's a good man.
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B
Oh, I loved this story. And I didn't realize it was the first couple Burger Kings. I didn't realize that at all. Bob's Burger Kings.
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C
Bob made all that money, Jenny.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And. And even though he was in by then, in his almost 80s, he built this house that had an indoor pool with ping pong tables and a pool table. He did not swim. He didn't play any of that. But he loved kids. He loved kids. And he would fill that house every Saturday with kids from the inner city. He'd make. He'd bring burgers in, pizza. And he was the most wonderful man. Wonderful man, generous.
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B
I love stories like that about generosity and how many people that probably touch and how many people have stories about Bob. You have a story about Bob and
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C
I could, I could call a guy right now who became a Christian because Bob promised him. Promised as a. When he was a kid, Bob said, I'll pick you up and take you to church. I don't know where Bob made him, but Bob started taking him to Church. He's a Christian today. He's in his 60s. He's an artist. And anyway, one story after another after another.
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B
And what you talk about is that unbreakable Courage, which is the name of the book. Unbreakable Courage requires good recall. Spiritual amnesia makes us spiritual whims, spiritual remembrance. Remembrance makes us spiritual giants. Because you say, if God went 3 for 3 caring for Elijah with these ravens, and you know, now he's going to the widow. There was another thing I think, too. Will he not go four for four? And you write. So for someone who's listening, someone who reads the book, will the God who blessed. Will the God who blessed you in your youth not bless you in your old age? Will the God who equipped you for your first job not equip you for your next one? Will the God who gave you grace last week not give you grace again?
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C
Amen. Amen.
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B
So it's just part of remembering. And that's one of the things that you'll get from this incredible new book. It's called Unbreakable Courage. Talk to us about the word steadfast. You say you love the word steadfast and that the race is long.
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C
We initially titled this book Steadfast. I still kind of, maybe I should have held out for that. I, I like the idea of, you know, of steadfast. It means a lot to me right now, Jenny, at this stage and age of life. I'm 71. I know I'm much closer to my, my last breath than my first breath. I know I'm well into not just the fourth quarter, but the two minute warning has sounded. And my prayer constantly is, lord, let me just finish well. I just want to finish well. I want to be steadfast. I don't want to disappoint the church. I don't want to embarrass my Lord. And I know. So that's a struggle that we've seen in our day and age. And, and, and so the steadfastness of, of Elijah is so powerful. He did struggle. He did. And, you know, there was a time, I mean, he, he wanted to throw in the towel at certain point, and he battled with depression, but he never, he never gave in. He thought about giving in, but he didn't. And he finished strong. You know, we don't have a funeral service for Elijah. He was taken to heaven in a whirlwind, and what a perfect ending to his life. But it's a picture of someone who is steadfast. And I think about, especially moms, you And I have talked about my. I have a covey full of grandkids. We have three born just in the last six months. So we've gone from grandkids to seven. And I watch my daughters, each of my daughters, and I think that's hard work. I mean, they're, they're, they're sleep deprived. They've got two kids pulling on one arm. It's, it's not easy. And I think steadfastness. Is it that picture of, oh, I may not feel like doing it today, but I'm just going to stay at it. I'm going to stay at it. I'm going to change one more diaper. I'm going to go take one more kid on a bike ride. I'm going to put up with that cranky husband one more time. Whatever it means, you know, just be steadfast. The life of Elijah is marked by dramatic events. In between those dramatic events are extended periods of time in which he's either in the, in, in. In Zarephath with the widow or in the Carath Ravine with the ravens, or when he's in the wilderness trying to sort through his own emotions. So those times are really, really important.
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B
Yes. So this is a book about the race is long. Don't give up. He also talk a lot about prayer. So I said I remembered that verse from a kid. Well, we did this Bible quizzing program and we did the Book of James. So that might be partially why I remembered it. But I did always like that one. What I didn't realize, and I read this in your book, was about this praying with all his might. You know, Elijah prayed with all his might. Moses prayed in the same manner you write. He begged the Lord. And there was this verse that said, so the Lord changed his mind and did not destroy the people. And as he said he might. So you're talking about praying passionately, dramatically, emotionally, thunderously pleading. So can you talk about. I mean, I don't know. I feel like prayer is. It never really seems this fervent was a word you use. It's more like the niceties. It's kind of quiet. But can you talk about, I guess, the power of prayer, praying with all your might. And maybe a different way to look at it, you know, with culture, it's like this quiet thing, you bow your head, you know, I don't think people use the word thunderously to describe prayer very often.
- [34:27]
C
Yeah, yeah. The fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much. That passage in the Book of James, you're talking about the fervent prayers. The fervent prayers, Elijah. Now, to be clear, there. There is a time to rest in prayer, and there is a time to wrestle in prayer. And Elijah did both. What prompted this discussion in the book is in Zarephath with the widow, you might recall, her son died. She had one son. He died. And when she told Elijah about it, she actually blamed Elijah. You know, if you were a better man, this wouldn't have happened. You know, grief never makes sense, right? And so Elijah, rather than respond or retaliate or retort, he went upstairs and he did something that is so stunning. He threw himself on the body of the dead boy and he begged for God to bring him to life. And he did this not once, not twice, but three times. He had no precedent for this. This had not happened, at least as recorded in Scripture, where a prophet or any person had, through prayer, brought someone from death to life. So this was. This was a conviction he had that the Lord God of Israel lives. And he had spent time with God in the. In the brook ravine. And now he was Book Kerith. And now he's in Zarephath and this boy is dead. He throws himself on him and he prays earnestly, passionately. Yes. And you like. Like Moses did, as Moses was begging for God, as the apostle Paul did. The apostle Paul said he would. He would gladly give himself up for his own people. That's how fervent his prayers were. And of course, our Lord Jesus, who prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane with such ferocity that rivulets of blood burst onto his face. And so there is a time for passionate prayer. Plead your case with God. Plead your case with God. Take your children before God. Take your problems before God. It's okay to get urgent now. Stay reverent. I'm not talking about praying with a swagger, but I am talking about praying with the knowledge that we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with us. But Scripture says we have one who has in every way been tempted, just as we are, yet did not sin. Therefore, let us approach the throne of grace. Confidence. With confidence. Lord, won't you bless my children? Lord? Won't you heal my marriage, Lord? Won't you please forgive my sin, Lord, Let there be honesty, sincerity. I don't want to suggest that the power of the prayer is in the way we say the prayer. It's always in the one who hears the prayer. We don't want to ever put power in formula, tone or chance or anything like that. But we do, we do know that just as parents, when our children really want something, we take note of it. We listen up. If they come and they say, dad, I really want to go to summer camp and I'll cut grass between now and when, when it's time to pay, count on me. That perks up the ears of a dad more than a kid who says, hey, dad, summer camp's coming up. You know, it's, it's just different. So that's what Elijah models for us. And, and I think there's a place for that for in our lives today.
- [38:16]
B
Passionate, passionate prayer. I love this story about when you were at graduation, maybe I don't know
- [38:22]
A
if it was high school or college.
- [38:23]
C
High school, high school, high school graduation.
- [38:26]
B
And you get asked to say a prayer during the ceremony. And so did Susie. And you're like, I had my prayer on a little note card inside my graduation cap. And she just prayed from the heart. You know, you can just see end of high school, you know, young man and being like, wait a minute.
- [38:45]
C
And I wasn't walking with the Lord. I don't know why they invited me to say the prayer. I really don't. I wasn't walking with the Lord. But she was. She was. And so for me, prayer was a chance to impress people with neat words. For her, prayer was an honest intercession for all her classmates. And I've never forgotten that.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah, you, you can tell. You can tell when it comes from the heart.
- [39:09]
A
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- [43:07]
B
Can you talk about the God that is a promise Maker? There was. I thought this was so powerful. There was a student of scripture who set out to number the promises of God that God made to humanity. He tallied 7,487 of them. Now, some of those promises are negative, like in Deuteronomy 28, where it's like all the blessings will come upon you, you know, Then you get to the second half of the chapter. It's like all the curses.
- [43:37]
C
Yeah, they're.
- [43:38]
B
And they're pretty, they're pretty remarkable. Remarkably bad, the curse aside. But there's 7,487 promises that one had numbered them that God made to humanity. And you told the story about Eduardo, who now serves as a champ chaplain in the Tennessee Maximum Security Prison, offering people hope. But can we talk about the fact that. That we can count on God's promises?
- [44:04]
C
We can. We can. Our God has chosen to consec connect himself or bind himself to his creation through covenants, through promises. And we do well to understand these promises. Again, some are positive. Some are just declaration of consequences if we disobey. But he has bound himself to us through covenants. And we can trust that God will keep his covenants. You know, Abraham did, Elijah did, Noah did. You know, every time you open the Bible, there's somebody trusting in the promises of God. And when they don't things happen that they would eventually regret. But when they do, when they build their lives on the promises of God, it's a. It's an extraordinary difference that can be made. You know, every Peter denies Jesus. And Jesus says to Peter, I will meet you in Galilee. After the ro rooster crows three times. Well, that's a covenant God made with Peter or Jesus made with Peter. Peter goes out and denies Christ. But that covenant that Jesus said, that promise, I will meet you in Galilee, was enough to sustain Peter through that time of shame. And Jesus kept that promise. And I want listening to know God has made a promise to you. Never will I leave you, he said, never will I forsake you. That's his promise to you. You got to trust those promises. Don't listen to your problems. Listen to God's promises.
- [45:42]
B
Oh, and there's so many that you can search for throughout the Bible. I had an experience when I was really young in Sunday school. My grandma was one of the Sunday school teachers and. And they told the promise. I was seven. I remember the promise that children, obey your parents in the Lord. This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you, that you may enjoy long life on the earth. And so they asked all these little kids to try it. And I. So I tried it. I remember being seven and then we went back in the next week and they asked, did anybody try it and how would it go? And I have this distinct memory of, you know, trying to honor parents, trying. You know, I would. I would skirt around cleaning my room, you know, shove everything in the closet, shove everything under the bed. I was. Sometimes I'd be mean to my little brothers and I. And I really tried to do a better job that week. And it was a really good week. And I just remember all through my childhood being able to go back to that promise and then being intrigued. Well, what are all the other promises? You know, like, about generosity and cast your bread upon the water for many days. It will return to you. All of these promises are yes and amen. So I love that this is a part of this book. The book is called Unbreakable Courage. So lots of topics in here. The story is a powerful one about Elijah, an exciting story like you talk about at the end. He's in this fiery chariot. He doesn't ever really die. And then, you know, then all this fire comes down from heaven. So if you're wanting to study something over the summer, a fun story with your kids, this is a great one to study with, study with Them. And you learn all of these biblical concepts. And I love that this is a guy that's a little rough around the edges. He gets raptured to heaven in a whirlwind. So Elijah is part of some of the greatest miracles in the Bible. You write the jar that never emptied, the resurrection of the widow's son, the fire falling on Mount Carmel, the rain that returned at Elijah's command, and Elijah being whisked into heaven on a fiery chariot.
- [47:44]
A
Chariot.
- [47:45]
B
Even with all these expansive, incredible, incredible miracles, he had some down times. And so this is one of the things that you talk about in the book, and especially since you said yesterday you were talking with that young man and he's having anxiety and panic attacks. You say this. A sagging spirit is not the sign of a fragile face. So can you talk about the times when we're struggling with how we feel?
- [48:10]
C
Well, Elijah, after the powerful encounter with God on Mount Carmel in which God brought fire from heaven, God, according to the same promise he had made, brought rain back to Israel and ended the drought. Then Elijah, fearing the wrath of Jezebel, goes into hiding. And he walked miles and miles, weeks and weeks, until finally he just falls down, exhausted, beneath what the scripture calls a broom tree. And he basically says, just take my life, Lord. And we read this and say, elijah, what has happened to you? What has happened to the. To the prophet who had courage in the throne room, who had faith in the. In the ravine, who had saw the little boy back to life, who had courage on Mount Carmel? What happened? You know, there are these seasons in life in which we just run out of fuel. We just run out of fuel. We get depleted, we go and we go and we go, and the emotion passes. Now, I think Elijah would be what we call depressed. He has all the behavioral symptoms of someone who's just deep, deep in a pit. And so I talk about depression in that chapter, and I want to do so carefully, respectfully, because it's not something you can just snap your fingers and say, hey, get out of it. Come on, move on. Aren't you blessed? But God met Elijah in the midst of his depression. And in the book, I unpack what God did. But just quickly, he called him out of the cave. He displayed himself, and then he cared for Elijah, actually gave him an angel, gave him bread so he could eat. So maybe if you're depressed today, get out of the cave. You know, don't. Don't isolate yourself. Get back into circulation. Let God reveal himself. This is that time in which God revealed himself. With that still small voice which is such a tender phrase, and then just let God replenish you. Maybe you do need to, you know, eat better or work out more or sleep more or find something, get a little more balance in your life. But do not for a second think that God has discarded you. All of us go through tough times, and the one by who's speaking right now has had more than his share. And sometimes we bring it on ourselves, but sometimes we do, we just get exhausted. I remember when I first began preaching, I wasn't worth a nickel on Mondays because I worked so hard on Sundays. And I can remember thinking, how come I'm in a funk? How come I'm got the blues on Mondays? And I came to realize that I just, you know, wore it all out on a Sunday and multiple services, talking to people and. And so I began to give myself slack and build in some rest time, some recovery time. You know, God. God took a day off after he created the earth. It's okay if you take a day off every week so you can catch your breath.
- [51:34]
B
I want to read what you wrote in Unspeakable. Unbreakable Courage. I hope I didn't say that wrong any other time. Unbreakable.
- [51:40]
C
No, you didn't. Okay, no, you didn't.
- [51:42]
B
You and I live in a culture without margins. Every second of our attention is sold to the highest bidder. The Internet world promises community, connection, and contentment. But mostly it leaves us all just tired. In the long run, we shall do more by sometimes doing less. And then you had a quote from Charles Spurgeon. The strong are not always vigorous. The wise are not always ready. The brave are not always courageous, and the joyous are not always happy. So there's a lot in this book about solitude, silence, margin, taking some time, not running to the max so that you can. So that you can make it for the long run. You can make the. You can hang in there for the long game. Okay, let's just hit a couple. I'm going to hit a couple randoms. You know, I do love that you have all these stories in your books and so many of them are tied to hands on things, getting outdoors. And it's just a reminder. Like that's a lot of these biblical parables, the stories in the Bible, the seeds and the sower. I mean, a lot of it has to do with nature, so it can teach us a lot. One of the things that you brought up was being a former Boy Scout and you learned your. You earned your Morse code merit badge. Do you still remember Morse code?
- [52:58]
C
Dot, dot, dot, dash, dash, dash, dot, dot, dot. That's all I know. Sos. I don't remember any of the rest of it, but I can't believe I learned it. I really did. Yeah, my buddy and I learned it and we did the flags. Do anybody do that anymore or is that just such a throwback you'd have to see it in an old movie?
- [53:20]
B
I don't know. But I thought, what a fun thing to learn because one of the message that you message back and forth with your friend was, hope we have ice cream.
- [53:30]
C
We were, and I tell the story because we were speaking a language that the rest of the, you know, camp, the jamboree, they called it then a Boy scout jamboree. There's three or 400 kids. He and I had created our own language and we were be able to connect in that way. And I think Elijah had a sense of a relationship with God where he could hear what God was saying to him. And I so long to have that myself.
- [53:59]
B
Yeah, I will read a little bit of it. I knew it would be fun to send and reply all these SOS messages. Not sos Morse code messages. No one else knew what you're saying. You said we had our own vernacular. The other Scouts saw a flurry of flags. My friend and I saw words and sentences. Our dots and dashes became communiques and announcements. Dinner is at 6pm he flagged, I deciphered and responded, hope we have ice cream. So you get this Morse code badge. And then you do talk about how Christ followers hear a language that others miss. What others see as only rainless skies. We hear distant thunder. So all these beautiful parallels. I wanted to ask about Denalin's piano lessons. That was in the book too. And I play piano and I loved that. Yes. How are her piano lessons going?
- [54:46]
C
Good. Every Wednesday. Every Wednesday. Yeah, she loves it. And. And. And again that I was working on that particular chapter, learning to listen to God, when downstairs she was getting her piano lesson and I got a little irritated thinking, here I'm trying to study, and she's down there playing the piano. And then I realized her teacher, whose name is Linda, was giving me an example because as Dylan was playing something on the piano, Linda was sitting on the bench next to her saying, now a little bit louder or don't forget this. Oh, don't skip that measure. She was guiding Danalin through the musical piece. And I think that's. That's what we all desire is to live in such proximity to God. That we can sense him guiding us, correcting us, making mid course adjustments when necessary. And. And so I. I captured that moment and said, this is a picture, I think, of how Elijah lived and a picture of how we all aspire to live. And I really think we can live.
- [55:51]
B
Yes, there is a statistic. I quote it a lot because it relates with getting outside and moving your body. And there's this book, it's called smart moves. Why learning is not all in your head. The author is named Dr. Carla Hannaford and she has a statistic in her book that says as we get older. As you get older, if you dance Regularly, you have a 76 less chance of developing dementia. And if you play a musical instrument, you have a 69% less chance of developing dementia. And it's because complex movements enhance brain wiring and protect brain wiring, and you have all these new neurons and all these new connections that are being made. So tell denalyn. Keep up with her.
- [56:33]
C
I will, I will. I will tell her. 69%. Okay.
- [56:38]
B
Yes.
- [56:39]
C
Yes.
- [56:39]
B
It's a wonderful thing to be doing. All right, last one. As we're heading out here, the book is to be going called unbreakable Courage. Strong faith in an age of anxiety, chaos and exhaustion. I got so much courage from it, so much oomph. To keep praying, to be faithful, to look at things for the long haul. And there's all of these parallels. This story from. What did you say it was something like 835 BC of this prophet? 850 to 1. The odds are against him. Actually, I wanted to read this one sentence. I love. This was one of my favorite sentence. Elijah's story is all about bad odds and odd gods. This reads like a poem. Their God is odd. The odds against him are bad, and Elijah is in the middle of it all. Also, if you read this with your kids, they might like the bail. The BAAL movement. Well done.
- [57:34]
C
Well done on that one.
- [57:35]
B
All right, last one. This is very kind of random, but I thought it was such a cool thing. And I love that you threw it in the book. When you were in Brazil, you said that there was this park that you would go to and a man would come every day and bring his horse to the park.
- [57:52]
C
Yeah.
- [57:52]
B
What a fun. What a fun memory. What a fun thing for kids.
- [57:56]
C
Yeah. Latin America, you see a lot of these. They call them parasis. PR a c a s parasa. It's like a little park right in the middle of the city. And it's, it's. It's not unusual for Somebody to have a horse and you could pay a few pennies or a dollar and he would put your kid on the horse and walk around the Prasa. It's not a big park, you know, it's just a. A circle. And every day I would come home and take Jenna to that park. We lived in Rio de Janeiro. By then our second daughter had been born and, and this was, you know, my kind of my contribution to giving Dinalin a break. I. I couldn't take baby Andrea, she was still nursing. But I could take Jenna, who was 2 years old, and we could go to this park. And Jenna loved to ride on that horse. But she would only do it if I walked alongside her and held her hand. And she had to be holding my hand. And all of us do we got to hold on to God's hand?
- [59:00]
A
Yes.
- [59:00]
C
And the beauty is he'll hold on to ours.
- [59:03]
B
Yes.
- [59:03]
A
Yes.
- [59:04]
B
What a message. What a message. I had written that down. God is teaching us to trust his hold on us, not our hold on Him. He's doing just the same. Just the same. So all of these parallels that you can, that can remind you about God's provision and God's care for your life. The book is called Unbreakable Courage. Strong faith in an age of anxiety, chaos and exhaustion. Congratulations on the new book. Congratulations on all the new grandbabies.
- [59:31]
C
Oh, you're so thoughtful. And thank you for being so thorough. I know you have a lot of books that come your way and I can tell you read it and I appreciate it. And what a great interview. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you, Jenny.
- [59:45]
B
Thanks, Max.
- [59:46]
C
And I'm going to order. Considering Sparrows, it's phenomenal.
- [59:50]
B
You'll love it.
- [59:51]
D
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [60:13]
A
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms.
- [60:23]
C
I'm not giving up. I am selling the building.
- [60:28]
B
The final season of FX is the Bear.
- [60:31]
A
The restaurant is flooded.
- [60:34]
C
Everything's either gonna be okay. Nope.
- [60:37]
B
Stop.
- [60:38]
C
Or not. We are outgunned, and we are outmanned. But we have each other.
- [60:45]
B
FX's the bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney.