← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
!KHO 698: Out of the Flower Chair | Bart and Shannon Millard, MercyMe
00:45:43
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- [00:00]
Jenny Urge
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [00:34]
Hello friends.
- [00:35]
Podcast Host
Thank you for pressing play. If you're new here, this show is about living a more grounded, more connected life in a screen heavy world. Because real life still matters and kids still need it. Today's episode is with Bart and Shannon Millard. Bart is from the band Mercy Me, the voice behind I Can Only Imagine.
- [00:51]
Jenny Urge
I was gonna try and sing it.
- [00:52]
Podcast Host
But then I decided not to and this conversation is far more honest than you'd expect. They tell the story behind what they call the Flower Chair, a long season of grief, chronic stress and quiet disengagement.
- [01:02]
Jenny Urge
And how healing actually begin. On to counseling, community, and the kind.
- [01:06]
Podcast Host
Of grace that meets you on your worst day. Before we jump in, tap follow on.
- [01:09]
Sponsor Voice
Apple Podcasts or Spotify so new episodes will show up automatically in your feed.
- [01:13]
Podcast Host
It takes just a few seconds and is the easiest way to support this show.
- [01:17]
Sponsor Voice
And if this episode hits close to.
- [01:18]
Podcast Host
Home, send it off to one person. These conversations don't spread because of algorithms. They spread because someone texts a link.
- [01:25]
Jenny Urge
All right, here we go.
- [01:26]
Podcast Host
This is out of the Flower Chair with Bart and Shannon Millard.
- [01:30]
Sponsor Voice
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- [02:50]
Jenny Urge
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urge. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And you're never going to believe who is here today. The singer of I Can Only Imagine and his wife Bart and Shannon Millard. They've got a new book out and a new movie coming and going on tour in March. Welcome to you both.
- [03:08]
Bart Millard
Thank you for having us. This is our. Might be one of our first that we've done together. Yeah, we don't.
- [03:15]
Jenny Urge
I love that you're doing it together. This book is fantastic. I took so many notes on it. And you're really talking in this book about trials and you have this almost like severing year 2004 where just thing after thing, trial after trial after trial comes and you're showing through your book and the movie, I can only imagine two. Both things are coming out in February and I'll put links. But you're showing God's goodness. This is what you write. We want to present personal evidence of God's goodness amid our humanity and in the middle of our mess. So it's just such a beautiful book, Shannon. I'd love to kick it off with you. I. I have a similar story to you. You say you became a Christ follower when you were young, you know, a little kid, first grade, and you like follow Christ and you're like, you know, he's got good promises for us. And. And you hit high school. I remember this too. And people come in, they've got these testimonies to like, I hit rock bottom. And you're like, wait, am I doing something wrong? You know, I haven't really had a moment like that. Maybe I don't even have a testimony. Can you talk? Because sometimes kids listen in with their parents about the beauty of just following Jesus from the beginning.
- [04:27]
Shannon Millard
Sure, it was a journey to get there, but now I can sit in the seat and say I'm really thankful for the protection of my parents raising me in that because I feel like I was protected from a lot of things I didn't realize. And it may have been more difficult for me to see that he was good. Because I'm comparing kids that have a little a life severing moment of I didn't know what God, who God was, and that he was good. And then he changed me. And I'm this miraculous new person physically. Like where you see the transformation.
- [04:58]
Jenny Urge
Yeah.
- [04:59]
Shannon Millard
And for me, I think that was the battle is like, I didn't see a massive transformation, but my best friend said, it's so good. And it stuck with me forever that when I accepted Christ as a child, it was like putting on my dad's T shirt and knew it was my dad's. And it felt really good. But I didn't quite understand everything involved as who he was as a person. And then as I grew it, it started to fit better. And then I started to know him more and I just started to feel it became more special. And, and, and so that just was a visual that I was like, oh, I'm really grateful for my journey.
- [05:33]
Jenny Urge
Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a good message to young people because you can have that be your testimony. Your testimony is a testimony of God's faithfulness from the beginning. So you have this book, even if this is based off of a song that you had that came out recently through Mercy Me, and it's just gone incredibly well. Even if has. And you talk about this year, 2004, and you even said, Shannon, like up until this point it had felt a bit like a utopia. And then you have this year where it was just thing after thing after thing. It starts with Shannon, your younger brother passes away suddenly and you know there's a car accident. And then your toddler is diagnosed with. He becomes a type 1 diabetic. It was a really young age and it was just thing after thing after thing. You say we literally divide our life into pre two, 2004 and post 2004, because our journey took a turn we never saw coming. We were blindsided when everything, I mean everything changed. At what point did you decide to take this story and put it into a book and make the second movie?
- [06:45]
Bart Millard
Oh, I wasn't. Yeah, it's kind of, It's. I love how it turned out. Like, originally I was. I wrote a book for the first movie. I can only imagine. And that came out of. I don't know if you're like me, but like if I see a true story on film on at the theater, I'm usually googling what else happened immediately afterwards. Like, I'm dying to know more about it. And like a World War II movie or whatever. And so in the middle of making that first movie, I, you know, I wasn't used to how it makes sense now, but you're taking most of my life and trying to compress into two hours. And so, you know, timelines get changed and all that kind of stuff. And so I found myself explaining to people, like, well, what really happened. It went this way or whatever. And somebody said, man, you write a book just kind of giving you a chance to, you know, like, when my mom left in the first movie to explain there's more to that story. And. And so that's. And it was very therapeutic to do that throughout the making of that first movie and enjoyed it so much that the opportunity came up for this time around. And in the first book, sorry for the long answer, but Shannon would have there be like, I. The book was mostly me. And then it would say from Shannon's perspective. And like, she would say something like a page or whatever. And Robert Nolan, the guy that writes with us that's kind of holds our hand, it's an incredible writer this time around, we were kind of approaching it the same way. And he was like, hey, man, he has. No offense to you, but Shannon's bringing some wisdom, dude. He's like, I think she's a co writer on this book. Because he found himself just going back to that well over and over. More like she didn't deserve just a page at the end of each chapter. And so that's why she's like, maybe you should answer. Because, like, she became an author just in what she started pouring into this book. And, and. And, you know, it got to a point when I would sit with Robert and we would write some stuff he would get really excited about. Can't wait to hear Shan's perspective. I'm like, dude, her name needs to be on the front of this book. Like, she is co writing this book. So that's how it came about. And. And was. And it was funny because, like, while I was on tour, we were so busy, there'd be times to where Robert would get on the phone with me and he would like. Because, like, I would sit and ultimately, like, I'm talking through everything, and if they were waiting on me to actually write it, it would never happen. And so Robert was transcribing everything I was saying. And so he would call me on the road going, hey, dude, I've got 20 more pages. And he would literally read them to me over the phone. And I was like, all right, all right, get to Shannon's part. Like, I found myself excited about, like, what she was saying on it. And so, yeah, was super excited when. And it was actually I. We. Because I probably didn't know I had had the space to say, hey, my wife should be a co author. But when the publishing company came back and said, hey, what do you think? I was like, oh, yeah, totally. I didn't. I would have brought it up. I thought that I didn't know how that worked. And they were like, man, she's contributed just as much. She's an author on this. So that's kind of how it came about. And I'm glad it did.
- [09:43]
Jenny Urge
I love it. I love it. And it really is. It's just both of your perspectives woven together. So you get the side from the dad, you get the side from the mom. The side from the mom, Shannon, is you. Like, I've got all these young kids, five kids in nine years, and then, you know, you have this, this diagnosis. So as a toddler, I really can't even imagine having to do the insulin shots, having to check the blood and through the night. And you've got other babies and other toddlers. And then Bart's traveling for work because he's a musician, so he's on load a lot. Can you just give some encouragement, Shannon, to moms who are in those early years or if anyone's listening, and they have a little one that's been diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic. Like some encouragement for them for down the road and also a little bit for today?
- [10:32]
Sure.
- [10:33]
Shannon Millard
I think it's pivotal that you have community around you. You surround yourself with some people who can share the load and don't be afraid to ask for it. There were times, like moving to Tennessee, I was afraid to ask for help because it was a new place for me. We're at home. When we lived in Texas, I was surrounded just from birth by lots of people. And I didn't understand the beauty of that fully. Like, I knew and appreciated it, but leaving that and having to find it yourself can be really hard. And so I didn't want to ask. And that's just something I've learned. You still need that. No matter what you're going through, you need that community of people. Ask for help, take breaks away from the disease, because that's very hard. You have to remove yourself and have some breaks for yourself to refuel.
- [11:18]
Jenny Urge
Yeah, yeah. Especially like you said, I mean, you're up at midnight and 3am and 6am to check on his blood sugars. And then this even was Difficult even heading into the teenage years where he's struggling, you know, your older son struggling, you know, feeling depressed or why me? Or, you know, how am I going to make it through? So there's a lot of parental guidance here from all the way from the beginning, all the way through. And so you get a lot out of the book as a parent, some encouragement and some inspiration. The book is called Even if I Would Love to Know a Little Bit More about the Song. So, I mean, I Can Only Imagine came out. You know, I think I was in my early 20s. I mean, I. I caught the bug, you know, I was in, you know, and you said, look, at some point you're like, I'm so sick of singing the song. I sing it at all these funerals. I sing it all the time. But I just remember, like, this is a very different song than any other song I've ever heard. You know, just the imagining, right? The thinking forward. What is it gonna be like? And I think a lot of times people think of heaven as, like, white clouds and boring. So it's just like, really a deep song. And I, you know, I mean, I could play the piano part. I mean, I love the song. So there was a. I read this in the book, though, even if I didn't know possibly Amy Grant was going to have the song. And then she gave it back and that changed the whole course of Mercy Me. So can you. Can you talk about why did she give it back? Like, did you just have an. An idea or, like, what happened there?
- [12:55]
Bart Millard
Well, we. We've been a band since 94, so going 32 years. And. And I wrote Imagine in 99. We were an independent band and the dream was to get a record deal and all that st. But we had. We had kind of created a pretty awesome following as independent band. And we were. Financially, we were. Well, we weren't doing great. But that last independent record we made had this song called I Can Only Imagine on it. And for us back then, we, you know, if we could sell enough CDs to pay for our phone bill, because we all lived in the same house and we literally shared one cell phone. And that's kind of how it was when this song came out. That last record, you know, this is back when CDs cost 20 bucks, you know, whatever. And, you know, we went from selling, like, if we sold a thousand CDs in a year, that was a decent year. I know it doesn't sound like much, but we could pay our rent. And that last album did about 180,000 units out of the trunk of our car, like, on our own. And we were like. We were able to be on salary and, like, our drummers, very responsible. He's like, our band mom. We had insurance as an independent band. Like, we were doing great. And in all this, it just. It caught fire. And so I was doing a show, and I got a phone call on our one cell phone, and. And I'm a he. I grew up Amy Grant fan and Christian music and all that. And I answered the phone. She goes, is this Bart? I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey, this is Amy Grant. And I said, whatever. And I hung up. And because I. It would be a joke that my band would play. And I was like, wait a minute. The band's inside about to go on, like, what's that? She called right back. She's like, don't hang up. It's really me. Don't hang up. And she told me how she got her number. And it sunk in, like, oh, no, this, like, I started to freak out. And she was like, I heard this song that her manager put in her car, gave it to her, and she goes, I can't stop listening to it. And she goes, I'm about to go in the studio, and I'm working on a new. And this was her. You know, Amy went mainstream with Baby Baby and all this stuff back in the day. And this was her. Her next, like, kind of comeback into the Christian market or whatever, back to her roots. And she really wanted to record Imagine, so of course we're independent. So I was like, yeah, I'm not married, nor do I have kids yet. Well, I am married, but we don't have kids. But if I do, they're gonna go to college one day if Amy Grant does this. And so we said yes.
- [15:14]
Jenny Urge
Yeah.
- [15:15]
Bart Millard
And out of that, all these record labels started calling us because they had heard that these guys wrote Amy Grant's next big hit. Like, Word had started getting around. So we started getting record deal offers just from the guys that wrote this big hit for Amy in her camp had already said, hey, this is the song. Whatever, make it. There was a big hype around it. And so we ended up signing a record deal. And the idea was, Amy's going to record it, make it a smash, and then we're going to be from the one. The guys that wrote Imagine. Here we are, right? We had a plan, and it was her song. We were allowed to put it on, like, the B side of our album just to show our version. But when I Say it's her song, it'll go to radio. Like, she'll take owner. It's hers. So that was the plan. So we signed and then Amy. We finished our album, like, in a year, and Amy still has barely even started. And we're like, what's going on? And Amy does do everything as slow as Christmas. She's never hurry. So our plan, the. Our label's freaking out going, what's. Like, we're ready to release our whole plan shot. And so we stayed in touch with her and. And like, hey, any chance this is going to release ever? And so we released another song that was terrible. It tanked, never did anything. And we were like, we're actually better off as an independent band. Like, this is a terrible beginning. And we're about to release the second song, trying to recover from bad album sales. And our manager called her manager and said, hey, any chance that maybe this time around on the second single, the song's gonna be done? And Amy was with her, got on the phone and said, hey, the reason we're. We slowed it down is because there's radio stations in the country that were playing the independent version a couple years ago and they can't get over it. And she goes, this song is huge. And so she goes, y' all need to finish what you started. This song is going to change your life. It's yours. And so she literally gave it back. We scrambled, changed all of our plans within a week, and then this is back. We had to burn CDs and send them to radio stations.
- [17:15]
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- [20:44]
Bart Millard
We spent the whole week sending, saying give us one more week because our new song was about to drop. We sent it out the next week. It just blew up. And we went from couldn't sell any records to you know like quadruple platinum on that first, on that first album. All because she gave it back. And she, you know, and she's a huge part of the story in the first movie. And she's one of my dear friends and, and you know, people just don't do that. And, and she literally changed our lives forever. And, and yeah, and now she's gonna have to sing in my kids weddings and stuff from now on.
- [21:19]
Jenny Urge
Wow, what a story. I mean the book is really showcasing how God shows up, you know, and the movies too. My mom is such a huge fan too. I was telling her yesterday, I was like, guess who I'm interviewing tomorrow. She was like, I loved the first movie. She's so excited about the second one. God shows up and, and you have these just moments that maybe seem like they're small at the time but just end up changing the whole course of your life. In, in the 30 year history of Mercy Me, everything changed for us in January. When January of When would it have been? 2002.
- [21:50]
Bart Millard
You mean when the song came out?
- [21:52]
Jenny Urge
When I Can Only Imagine hit number one.
- [21:55]
Bart Millard
Yeah, yeah. It would have been like oh yeah, oh two. I think that's right.
- [21:58]
Jenny Urge
Yeah. When I Can Only Imagine hit number one on the Christian music charts. So then obviously it hits number one. And Bart, then you talk about how okay, now all of a sudden there is just this onslaught of people wanting you to come perform. You have more people asking your band to perform than you have days in the year. And as amazing as that might sound, it also Shannon puts you in a hard spot, right, because you've got a Bunch of little kids. So can you talk through this season of struggling through that with young kids? And, Bart, you're on the road, and it's just kind of a little easy to be disconnected. It's a little easy to not know what the routine is at home. And then, you know, sort of the coming and going of that. How did you manage to keep your marriage together?
- [22:49]
Bart Millard
We live. We're separate. I'm kidding. She's asking you.
- [22:54]
Jenny Urge
This is like, you know, this is like the flower chair. You know, this is in the movie the Flower Chair. I mean, I think there's a lot. I guess what I'm trying to get to you is there's a lot of tendency, I think. I'm not trying. I'm like, I'm painting with a broad brush. But sometimes dads disengage.
- [23:09]
Bart Millard
Sure.
- [23:09]
Jenny Urge
And, you know, they can throw themselves into work and they can say, like you said, you know, we've got five kids. And Shannon, you say, too. You're like, well, there's a lot of mouths to feed.
- [23:18]
Sponsor Voice
There's a lot of people to support.
- [23:20]
Jenny Urge
So you want to. You want the business. But then on the other hand, it does make it really hard if you're the mom that's at home and. And you've got all these small kids to make it through that season.
- [23:33]
Shannon Millard
Sure, yeah. I mean, you. There's obviously a struggle with resentment, and you have to just stay grounded in what's. What's the point and what's the focus? And the focus is we have a ministry that points people to Jesus and I. And it is hard for a mom to find.
- [23:48]
Sponsor Voice
Where's my place in that.
- [23:50]
Shannon Millard
And I just had a lot of people reminded me every day, really, that you are part of this. Like, he can't do this if you can't do your part. I think that helped me just say, oh, yeah, okay, I trust that, and I'm going to keep doing that. It was hard, but we just chose to support each other.
- [24:09]
Jenny Urge
Yeah. So then, Bart, how did you make some changes? Because you said, you know, you would just sit in the chair and kind of like you're. You're zoning out a little bit. I mean, it's got to be overwhelming, too. You know, traveling like that. That extent is exhausting. And, you know, you've got all sorts of people I would imagine, pulling from you for this. This, you know, almost like you can get used a bit. I would imagine, like, they want you for this event and that thing, and that's going to draw people in for their Thing, so finding the balance there. But you said, I just wanted to let life pass by without anyone noticing. I wasn't taking part. How did you pull yourself out of that, man?
- [24:50]
Bart Millard
Yeah, that, that flower chair is no joke. Like, that's. Even to this day, if, like I'm struggling, you know, Shannon will say, like, are you back in the flower chair? It's, it almost became a character in itself in the movie because it's. That represented, like I would just sit there when I was through this depression, especially after 04 when Sam was diagnosed. We had, you know, you know, loved ones pass away, just a hard season. And when I say in the flower chair, we're talking. Sam was 2 and 04 when he was diagnosed and I probably didn't get out of it until he was 15 or 16. We're talking years of just of like sitting there and kids climbing all over me and me not even noticing and Shannon being a single mom that whole time and, and it was. Got to a point to where it, it was, it pretty much rock bottom. Like, it was like, like why Shannon didn't just say, you know, what I'm already doing on my own, I'll just keep, you know, you know, instead of six children, I could leave you and just go back to five is what it felt like. And I just had a massive wake up call. And I think the biggest part was, I mean, all the credit goes to Shannon not giving up on me. But she. Eventually we decided to go to grief counseling to deal with. And it's funny because we, I think back then we would say it was to deal with the loss of her brother, which a huge part of it was. I don't think we really ever voiced this, this sense of. And because it was early on, but walking into this new normal of this chronic illness that never goes away, where insulin's life support and, you know, it's not like, well, if he loses a few pounds, it's going to go away. Nope, this is, this is it. Let's find a cure. This is it. And it's overwhelming, but at the same time you've got this voice in your head saying, it could be worse. So maybe we don't complain too much because it's not cancer or whatever. And so. And I think that goes for a lot of people dealing with kids with chronic illnesses or themselves, like they feel like they shouldn't. They don't have a voice to say anything because they always think, well, it could have been worse. And we're learning that with this movie just in the screenings we've done already, people in tears saying, I feel seen and heard, like, you know, but I'll get back to that because one story I want to tell you, but, yeah, this. We. I agreed to go to grief counseling because, like, I mean, I was. I was up to like 370 pounds. Like, I was just in bad shape. And, and, and actually Shannon was going to counseling, actually, and, and she. And I wouldn't. I was like, you know, I was like, I don't think that's for me. You know, it kind of grew up like, I'm the man and, you know, Jesus, all I need. How could counseling help? Which was so sad. And so she wanted me to come and hear about Shannon's progress. So I was. That's what I thought I was doing. So I sat down. I'm like, all right. And. And as soon as we started talking, our therapist was like. She asked me something about childhood. Shannon was like, I'm gonna run to the restroom real quick. And all of a sudden I realized I'm in my own dang session. I got ambushed. And then in that session, that, that one session, I mean, it wrecked me. It opened so much within maybe a 30 to maybe an hour session that has kept coming back and coming back and, and, and, And I just, I got this. This new gosh, I just, I started understanding what grace is and, and, and my identity in Christ. And, and, you know, the biggest thing for me growing up in the church and a kind of a legalistic situation where I thought I. If I. If I'm good enough, if I do X, Y, and Z, then I'm going to be rewarded to hearing someone tell me, you know, on your worst possible day, because, you know Jesus, he still sees you as holy. He's still pleased with you on your worst day. Because it's not about how you perform. It's not about what you do that doesn't define your identity. And it was like discovering fire for the first time ever. And it just set us off on this journey to where Shannon's faithfulness and that pulled me out of the chair. And not just pulled me out of the chair, but it was like. It just kind of changed the way I looked at parenting and being a husband and, and, and coincidentally, that was like, about the same time that this person. It wasn't my idea to make the first movie. They approached me that same year, and it took eight years to get that movie released. And in those eight years, I was unrelated, getting healthy emotionally and spiritually and, and even physically to where I could never have been a part of any of this if that hadn't have happened. It's very much a God thing to where by the time the movie released, we were in a really healthy place to tell the story, because we were. We. We love the. How the ending is and how it turns out. And so. Yeah, but it was. Yeah, I'm a. I am a full supporter of counseling and therapy and getting help and talking to other people. Isolation is the worst thing. Is the worst thing that happened to you when you feel like you're the only one and that I should be able to take it as myself. Because it's. It's overwhelming. That's why it's overwhelming in the first place. It's too hard.
- [29:49]
Jenny Urge
And you had gone through so much going all the way back to your childhood where, you know, you talk about. And this is in the first movie, your mom drops you off at summer camp and then leaves, and you're with your dad, and he's got his own problems, so there's a lot to deal with. And then you had. I mean, it was so many things into 2005 where you have this reaction. You get this arthritis thing. And, like, you know, Shannon's gotta, like, help you get dressed. And, you know, you had several close family members that passed away, so you can see how. Yeah, that would really help. You had a lot to work through. My favorite line of the whole book in Even if is the line where, you know. Because you just said, you're like. You didn't really get out of the flower chair. And so people will watch the movie, they'll see the flower chair. Like, until Your oldest was 15 or 20 or 16 years old. And at that point, you might think, well, I'm too late. And, you know, you have this. This beautiful part of the story where sort of Sam comes into his own. He is singing on your tour, which is such a cool thing. I've been learning this whole year about family economies and how, like, this is, you know, how people used to do it.
- [30:58]
Sponsor Voice
Right.
- [30:58]
Jenny Urge
They've got their own talents in their family, and they kind of like bring the kids up through it and they like. It's like what the hobby lobby guy does. It's like you allow them to shine in their own way in what you've built. Anyway, so I loved reading about this in your book, but this was my favorite line. You talk. You're crying. You know, he's.
- [31:15]
Sponsor Voice
You're speechless.
- [31:16]
Jenny Urge
He's singing because he lives. And you didn't know he was going to be doing it. And he didn't know. You didn't know he was going to be doing it. And you say his performance was so good. The tears were also. Because I love his voice that much. The voice of that diabetic kid I thought I had ruined. Oh, it's like such a line. Like, doesn't every parent go through these periods of times, even long periods of times where they're like, I just ruined my kid. You know, I ruined my kid. I wasn't there. You know, I should have done more like those voices of regret. So it was like an incredible. My favorite line in the book. It's fantastic book. Even if you were gonna say Bart though, that people have probably seen like a pre screener type things.
- [31:58]
Sponsor Voice
They've already seen it.
- [31:59]
Jenny Urge
It comes out on February 20th, so everyone can go get their tickets. I'm going to watch it with my mom. The book comes out on February 3, but people have seen a pre screening and you've already heard back stories from them and I think you were going to tell one.
- [32:13]
Bart Millard
Yeah, the thing that in the first movie, it being a father son thing, I was so, I mean I'm, I do ministry. I'm in a Christian band for so long and I got so wrapped up in the making of the movie that the first, when the first movie released and I sat with a live audience, I just forgot about the ministry aspect of these dads that wouldn't leave the theater so they could get their son on the phone, things like that. And I was just like, like somehow it. I forgot. And I was just like, you would think that would be the first thing I was thinking of, but I was just in a different place. And this time around I've been trying to be more aware and, and it's funny, as aware as I could possibly be of, oh, this is what I'm going to hear back from people. They kind of got me again and surprised me because we've done several screenings and if there's time I can stay and talk afterwards. And there's three people would come and say, hey, I've got a kid with diabetes. And, and you, you got it right. We don't. Lionsgate doesn't think there's ever been a movie that's really addressed diabetes like this. And, and, and to hear people say I feel seen or I feel heard because you, you got the minute things correct in our daily routine. And, and, and then another lady came up and well, the one that got me was a lady walked up, she was standing next to her hearing the diabetic story. And she goes, it's not just diabetes. It's. It's anything chronic that doesn't go away. And she was standing there with her daughter who has down syndrome, and her daughter's probably an adult because it was an older mom. And she's saying it in front of her, and she goes, I. This is the joy of my life. I love her with everything. And she goes, but I have days when I know she's never moving out, she's never going to get married. She's never the things that you dream of for your daughter. And she's in tears and smiling at the same time. She goes, I wouldn't trade it for the world, but I have days when it's just too hard and I just want to step away and scream in my closet.
- [34:09]
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- [35:14]
Bart Millard
So, and then it doesn't mean I love her any less. It doesn't mean I want to trade it. She goes, and it literally, there's a line, there's in the new movie, I keep writing my journal. This doesn't go away. Talking about diabetes. So these people that. And. And she even said, she was like, you know, this is. It's not cancer. It's like, you know, I didn't lose my child. And so these voices in my head are telling me, don't speak up. It could be worse. You know, it's. You know, it could always be worse. And so she goes. So I felt silenced by that, by the guilt of, you know, I should be grateful. And she goes, And I am grateful. And she goes. But she goes. I just. I felt heard because there's, you know, I want to complain and say, God, this is so hard. But that's all it sounds like is just me complaining when it could be so much worse. And. And her daughter is embracing her, the whole conversation. Doesn't let go. Loves her, you know, unconditionally. She sang in front of her and. And she even said yes. Sometimes my mom needs a break for me. And. And they laugh together. And it just, it. It warmed my heart and broke my heart because, like, gosh, that what an unconditional, selfless person who adores her daughter. But also it broke my heart because she's like, I beat myself up. When I had those moments of, like, God, I can't take it. I was like, every moment needs a break. Like, every, you know, just to get away for a second. Just, you come back a better parent. And I didn't see that coming. For just people that have these, these, These. Not just illnesses, but things like that to where it could be worse, but they just kind of chip at you slowly, slowly, like a mosquito in your camping tent, it's like, it's like, ah. And. And they. And to hear people say, man, I related to this, like, I feel like you represented me so more than just a diabetic child was super encouraging. And. And I've heard that more than anything, there's obviously the father son element. But what I'm hearing right now are these moms and parents are like, I've had the diabetic kid and, and, you know, and I didn't think it was an. I didn't. I feel bad for complaining. Like, who can't relate to that?
- [37:24]
Jenny Urge
Yeah. I mean, and there's so many ways to relate, you know, if. If you just. If you can't take it away and so you have to walk alongside them. We've got these really good friends named Aubrey and Jen, and their daughter has got scoliosis, and it's pretty severe. And, you know, they wrote this song about how, you know, when you cry yourself to sleep, my tears will keep yours company. It's something like that. Hopefully I didn't just butcher it, but, you know, it's, it's the fact of, like, you know, we will weep together, we will walk together, we will heal together, but you can't take it away. And so, yeah, any parent listening who is in a situation like that, you know, you even said at the beginning, Bart, that, you know, so Shannon's home with the kids. Your. It was your mom, I think Shannon or, or Bart's mom, someone's mom is like, I, I think, you know, he's drinking all this milk, is. Something's wrong. And Bart, you were like, oh, yeah, well, you know, we'll fix it. But then you find out like, no, this is for life. You didn't know. And I think, yeah, a lot of parents are in the situation where you can't fix it. It's not going to change. And so, and so this is the song. Even if, even if you don't, it's a beautiful song. So what a fantastic sequel. You know, that the stories that weave together. And I just think it's a wonderful thing that you have both books and both movies out in February and I'm sure that more and more stories are going to start to roll in. We are really good friends with this couple, Dustin and Sarah Lally. Dustin is the lead singer of a band, Sanctus Real, and they're like dear friends of ours. We went on tour with them a year ago and they did the music for it. And we saw this guy, Tim Timmons, when we went and saw St Israel perform one time and I, you know, we saw him once and he was like super energetic and like really personable and like he, I think he did like all the mc. And anyway, that was the only time I've ever seen him.
- [39:17]
And.
- [39:18]
And then he's like got a starring role in the book and the movie.
- [39:21]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [39:21]
Jenny Urge
So that was a cool thing. Can you just talk a quick bit? Let's talk a quick bit about a couple of things that people can anticipate for the movie. So the flower chair is one Tim Timmons. He's. He's got a starring role. I mean, he's played by somebody else.
- [39:35]
Bart Millard
But my love and familia from this Is Us and Gilmore Girls or whatever plays Tim. So what a cool thing. Got an upgrade.
- [39:46]
Jenny Urge
So. So Shannon, you were talking about how their really was a blessing to your family. Like you. You could get in the same small group. You've moved to Tennessee and you become really close. So Tim writes an X on his wrist. You know, he's just so thankful for.
- [40:01]
Sponsor Voice
Every day that he's alive because he.
- [40:02]
Jenny Urge
Had cancer and they'd given him only a certain amount of time to live. So. Anything else you want to add about Tim? He's got. He's got a role in the movie.
- [40:10]
Bart Millard
Yeah, he's a huge part of the movie.
- [40:12]
Shannon Millard
Huge part.
- [40:12]
Bart Millard
Yeah. He's. I mean Tim, the. We co Wrote the song. Even if. And so when they were trying to figure out, you know, originally they wanted. It wasn't gonna be a sequel. The a producer wanted to make a song, a movie around the song. Even if like, even if we have to find fan mail or some other story. They just love the song. And. And when they asked where'd it come from is when they realized, oh wait, this is the story. And Tim's a huge part of that. Like Tim was the one when talking about when you know, with Sam's diabetes and it's how it just chips away at you every day. You know, Tim was either the right place or wrong place, the right time.
- [40:48]
Sponsor Voice
I don't know.
- [40:49]
Bart Millard
But I had a writing session with Tim and it's one of those days where I just snapped and everything. The levy broke and I just went off about how I'm tired of people thinking I'm this professional Christian that. That. That has it all together when I don't. And just ranted and. And by the end we never wrote anything because Tim is always pretty goofy and he's like a puppy dog and. And he started playing music while I was going off and so upset and it sounded like the wrap it up music at the end of an award show speech. And it kind of took me off. So I was like, you know what? We're not writing. And I left and he sent me. What he was doing was playing a song that he sent me a voice memo and he goes, man, I've been trying to write the song you've been talking about for five years. Because I had forgotten. I'm sitting there saying stuff like, you don't know what I'm going through. Forgetting I'm talking to the guy with cancer. And and just didn't. It slipped my mind and so he sent me the course to Even if and it wrecked me and finished it in like the next day or two. And, and, and, and yeah, so he's a huge part of this story. He was. When, you know, I'm playing more of the role of a doctor than being a friend or I'm careful to say friend or parent because being a doctor is part of being a parent. But you know, just, you know, Sam, I learned in the Interviews. My son, his perspective was like, man, my dad would just be the best time with my. The other four siblings or whatever, you know, at that time, I guess a couple. But to me, it was like, don't eat this, eat that. Take your shot. And it was hard on him to see this fun guy that turned into Dr. Dad with him. And I didn't realize that until I heard the interviews, but. But I was wrestling with it too. Well, Tim, when I met him, we went on tour. He became. Not just on the road, but they ended up moving to Nashville. And just. We did life together. Tim. Tim, I think, acknowledged and saw the strain between my son and myself probably quicker than I did, but he saw that we both had a love for music. And so Tim was the. You know, he was kind of that guy.
- [42:43]
Jenny Urge
We.
- [42:43]
Bart Millard
We jokingly call it the father of the bride syndrome. I don't know if you saw the movie where Steve Martin tells his daughter, hey, you need. It's cold outside. You should wear jackets. She's like, whatever. Dad blows him off. Then the fiance comes down, said the same thing. She's like, you're right. It's a blizzard. I. I should get the coat. Sometimes we're saying the same thing, but it needs to be heard by somebody else. Tim was that voice, and he poured into Sam and his music when maybe I couldn't have at the time. Whether it was me or Sam, we just weren't a different place. And so this story is about how Sam. He was the ray of hope that kind of bridged that relationship and, you know, and. And how. Yeah, just it's. It's like all three relationships brought healing to each other, and that's the beautiful part of the story. And. Yeah, huge part of the movie. And it's. And I think that's why we were most excited. We've done the movie thing, and when I heard it was gonna be one talking about us and Tim and that I would be able to walk through this with him, I think I got more excited about that. I was like, this is gonna be a blast, dude. It has been.
- [43:39]
Jenny Urge
Oh, I love it. And Sam says. Sam. Because Sam writes in the book, too. There's actually. There's three people writing in the book. It's the two of you, and also Sam, he's got his own parts. And he said that Tim is such a great listener. You know, he became this mentor and discipler to Sam. That's what you wrote, Shannon, and started encouraging Sam and his music in a way no one else could. It's like, you can take so many parts of your story and say, do I have a mentor in. In our life for our older teen? Like, is there someone they can talk to you? Is there someone that will listen to them? There's just so many takeaways. It is a fantastic book, you said, even if charted even faster than I can only imagine. So wonderful songs to listen to. Come listen. Come to your tour. Go see the movie. Grab both books.
- [44:21]
Sponsor Voice
Grab.
- [44:22]
Jenny Urge
Watch both movies. Can we wrap it up with the name Mercy Me? I actually love this. I didn't know where it came from. I didn't know. But my grandma always said, lord willing. And I was like, would that be a good band name? I don't know. It doesn't happen.
- [44:36]
Bart Millard
My grandmother said it. It probably would have been our band name.
- [44:38]
Jenny Urge
Can you just tell us real quick the story? I love it.
- [44:41]
Bart Millard
Yeah. I was. I. I moved away from home in Dallas to go to school in Florida and work in a church. And I found myself not going to class at all. Just. Just. This is before cell phones. And so we had landline. And she was confused because no matter when she called, I always answered the phone. She was like, do you ever go to class? What are you doing? You're always home. And I jokingly said, because I started working with, like, a praise band for the first time in this church. And I was like, I think I'm going to start a band that sounds. I think I'm going to do that. And second, I come with a band name. We're going to take this place over. Joking. And she literally said, well, mercy me, why don't you get a real job? And I was like, well, I got the band name at least. And I just did an interview before this. And she was like, what. What do you think? Like? And it was a very, very religious program. And she was like, does it. Are you happy the way it came about, or would it be better to, like, be God's mercy and me? I was like, no, it's exactly what it is. I would never be the guy to be that serious. That's the funniest thing ever. And it's like one of my favorite people in the world named the band.
- [45:43]
Jenny Urge
I love it. Mama Lindsay. She's the godliest woman I've ever known. We always end our show. If you can give me, like, a quick thing. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside, and then I'll hang out up.
- [45:52]
Bart Millard
That was outside.
- [45:52]
Jenny Urge
Yeah.
- [45:54]
Bart Millard
Favorite memory. That was my favorite one. My last thing is when I thought I was. I. I thought I was Peter Pan and tried to jump off the roof of the house and it did not work out at all. It did not. I am not Peter Pan. And that's memorable. Gravity is very, very real. But I. But I was dumb enough to try it twice. I didn't get hurt. So it wasn't. I mean, I don't. I didn't break a leg. I just remember I was determined that it was going to work. And my brother had an umbrella. He had to be Mary Poppins out of school.
- [46:28]
Jenny Urge
The umbrella probably doesn't help too much either.
- [46:29]
Bart Millard
Right. Right.
- [46:30]
Jenny Urge
Jaden, do you have one?
- [46:32]
Shannon Millard
I think just being free outside, riding my bike and we would make mud pies all the time. Like, we would make food out of mud. And that was awesome.
- [46:40]
Jenny Urge
It is awesome. Well, huge congratulations to the two of you. The book is fantastic. Even if you this comes out February 3rd. The movie February 20th. Go see it. Mercy Me goes on tour in March. What an honor. Thanks for being here.
- [46:52]
Bart Millard
Thanks for having us.
- [46:54]
Podcast Host
Thank you so much for listening. There's a lot in this conversation. Grief, chronic stress, marriage under pressure, and what it looks like to get help and keep going. If you know someone who would connect with that, send them this episode Two quick things that genuinely help this podcast grow. First, tap follow on the show on Apple Podcasts. It's right at the top of the show page on Spotify. Hit follow or the plus sign. Following is how this show becomes part of your rhythm and it signals to the algorithm that this episode matters. Second, share this episode with one person who needs it. A friend in the thick of parenting, a spouse who's burnt out, someone carrying grief, someone dealing with chronic stress. Text it that one chair is how we reach new listeners. And if you've never left a review, a short one helps more than you think. I love how diverse the guests and topics are on this show. Came in just the other day and it was super encouraging. I'm really glad you're here. Until next time. May you find extraordinary moments and ordinary paths.
- [47:46]
Jenny Urge
Get outside open your eyes Feel that.
- [47:50]
Sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind.
- [47:58]
Climb some trees.
- [47:59]
Skin your knees Feel that grass on.
- [48:02]
Your feet again get out there and.
- [48:05]
Take it in.
- [48:08]
Sponsor Voice
Oh.
- [48:11]
Jenny Urge
It'S a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just.
- [48:38]
Sponsor Voice
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