#163 Is it Too Late to Give my Kids a Biblical Worldview? With Brett & Erin Kunkle

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Alisa Childers Podcast, Episode #163

Title: Is it Too Late to Give My Kids a Biblical Worldview? With Brett & Erin Kunkle
Date: July 24, 2022
Host: Alisa Childers
Guests: Brett & Erin Kunkle (Maven Ministries)

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles one of the most pressing concerns for Christian parents today: “Is it too late to give my kids a biblical worldview?” Joining Alisa are Brett and Erin Kunkle of Maven Ministries, who share their personal stories and practical strategies for nurturing a biblical worldview in children and teens, especially if parents are realizing they need to make changes later in their parenting journey. The conversation centers on how to address past shortcomings, overcome fear-driven parenting motives (especially due to concerns about deconstruction), and build new, gospel-centered habits in the family, even when kids seem resistant.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Navigating the Overwhelm: Parenting in a Hostile Culture ([00:48-04:51])

• Cultural Pressures: Alisa opens with a candid reflection on the overwhelming nature of parenting in a world that is “actively working to change our kids' minds on issues like sexuality and gender.” She acknowledges the fear and feeling of inadequacy that many Christian parents experience.
• Key takeaway: “Christian parents, we should not be timid or shy to teach our kids the truth of the biblical worldview because it is as objectively true as mathematics.” (B, [02:52])

Brett & Erin’s Story: Unlikely Beginnings & Different Backgrounds ([07:25-17:09])

• Erin’s Testimony: Erin shares starting motherhood as a high school senior, becoming a Christian through a crisis pregnancy, and finding her way to Biola University.
• Brett’s Testimony: Brett recounts a positive church upbringing, strong mentorship from a youth pastor, and entering ministry young.
• Together they blended families, learning to co-parent, navigate challenges, and eventually raising five children (now aged 10 to 27) and becoming grandparents.
• Technology’s Rapid Change: Erin notes, “When our oldest daughter was asking for a phone in junior high, that was a flip phone… now the average age of kids getting an iPhone is 10 years old.” (D, [17:10])

The Impact of Deconstruction Stories on Parenting ([19:00-26:17])

• Pendulum Effect: Parents often overcorrect in response to deconstruction narratives—fearful that too much emphasis on Christianity will drive kids to rebel or deconstruct.
• Brett: “What is Christianity? ...If it’s just a personal preference, not knowledge of reality, then we become timid in how we teach it.” (A, [22:00])
• Critical Media Narratives: Brett relates a conversation with a teen who believed “the church treats gay people so poorly.” When challenged, the teen admitted he’d never actually witnessed this firsthand, highlighting the power of online narratives over reality. (A, [23:30])

Parenting Without Fear & Embracing Gospel Hope ([26:18-31:49])

• Avoid Fear-Driven Decisions: Erin cautions parents against parenting from a place of fear: “We can’t act out of our fear when it comes to our parenting. We will make really bad decisions.” (D, [28:08])
• Gospel Perspective: Brett urges parents to root hope in the resurrection and maintain realistic expectations: “There’s no formula or perfect parenting that guarantees a child will honor their Maker.” (A, [28:57])
• Don’t Lose Sight of the Larger Story.

Discipling Kids: The Trivium Approach & Practical Habits ([34:38-42:31])

• Trivium Model: Brett explains the classical model of the Trivium:
  • Grammar (What): Early years—pouring truth and biblical knowledge in.
  • Logic (Why): Middle years—engaging questions, teaching reasoning.
  • Rhetoric (How): Teens—learning to articulate and defend beliefs. (A, [34:38])
• Morning Time: Erin describes “morning time” as a practical way to build habits of truth-seeking in the family, even if it’s just a brief daily focus. (D, [37:33])
• Beyond the Classroom: Brett stresses the need to take faith formation beyond talk, by “getting it out of the classroom,” engaging worldviews through real-life experiences, such as visiting a mosque or role-playing with teens. (A, [39:59])

What If You’re Starting Late? Responding to a Parent’s Email ([42:31-53:23])

• The Situation: Alisa reads an email from a mom regretful over raising her kids on “God loves everyone and live your truth,” realizing now (with kids aged 12 and 14) that she neglected the biblical worldview. Her kids are resistant and doubtful.
• Erin’s Advice: Lead with humility and honesty—confess past mistakes to your kids, share your current journey, and invite them to pursue truth together: “Kids respond to that because we are being humble. … Invite them to do this with you, to seek truth together wherever it leads.” (D, [46:04])
• Brett’s Advice: Don’t measure success by immediate receptivity. “Our job as parents is to be as faithful as we can … but we can be faithful and yet we don’t guarantee the results.” (A, [48:58])
• Forming New Habits: Erin points out that changing long-established family habits will be hard for both parents and kids but it’s “worthy work.” (D, [51:35])
• The Necessity of Parental Authority: Brett challenges parents to be okay with making their kids do things they don’t want to do. “Part of your job as a parent when they’re 12 and 14 is actually to get them to do things they don’t want to do.” (A, [53:23])
• Memorable Analogy: Brett compares requiring church participation to requiring children to go to school and learn math: “Do we believe that Christianity is as true as math? Because it is.” (A, [57:38])

Encouragement and Practical Next Steps ([59:14-64:52])

• Create Space for Doubts: Brett encourages families to sit down, invite kids to share doubts/questions, and not immediately jump to answers—demonstrate “safety in doubting.” (A, [59:14])
• Whole-Life Discipleship: Erin urges parents to examine their parenting through a Christian lens in all areas: “We pass along the faith to our kids when we teach them how to get along as siblings. … Maybe ask, ‘What am I just taking as advice from the culture or taking as normal?’” (D, [61:30])
• Notable Quote: “There’s a Christian view of technology, a Christian view of work, a Christian view of all kinds of things.” (D, [61:30])

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Standout Quotes

• “We should not be timid or shy to teach our kids the truth of the biblical worldview because it is as objectively true as mathematics.”
  — Alisa Childers, [02:52]

• “What is Christianity? If it’s just a personal preference, not knowledge of reality, then we become timid in how we teach it.”
  — Brett Kunkle, [22:00]

• “There’s no formula or perfect parenting that guarantees a child will honor their Maker.”
  — Brett Kunkle, [28:57]

• “We can’t act out of our fear when it comes to our parenting. We will make really bad decisions.”
  — Erin Kunkle, [28:08]

• “Invite them to do this with you, to seek truth together wherever it leads.”
  — Erin Kunkle, [46:04]

• “Part of your job as a parent when they’re 12 and 14 is actually to get them to do things they don’t want to do… We do that in almost every other area.”
  — Brett Kunkle, [53:23]

• “Do we believe that Christianity is as true as math? Because it is.”
  — Brett Kunkle, [57:38]

• “We pass along the faith when we have our kids engage in work...when we teach them how to get along as siblings...it's every area.”
  — Erin Kunkle, [61:30]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:48] Addressing the overwhelming nature of modern parenting
• [07:25] Brett & Erin’s personal stories and parenting journey
• [17:10] Changing landscape of technology and screens in parenting
• [22:00] How deconstruction narratives can over-influence parents
• [28:08] Erin’s advice: Don’t parent from fear
• [34:38] The Trivium model for spiritual and intellectual development
• [39:59] The need to move discipleship beyond the classroom
• [46:02] Email from a parent starting late
• [53:23] Parental authority and not being afraid to require things of kids
• [59:14] Practical advice: Invite doubts, implement new habits, focus on the whole of parenting

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Closing & Resources

• Maven Ministries: Brett and Erin’s organization provides resources, conferences, and a weekly Maven Parent Podcast on applying a biblical worldview to all aspects of parenting.
  Website: maventruth.com
• Encouragement: It’s never too late to start; humility, honesty, and forming new habits can reset a family’s spiritual direction regardless of the past.

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Actionable Takeaways for Parents

1. Start with honesty and humility: If you’ve made mistakes or come to new convictions, share that openly with your children.
2. Invite your kids into the journey: Pursue truth together rather than positioning yourself as having all the answers.
3. Create new habits: Family meals, screen-free zones, and regular spiritual discussions can help reorient the family.
4. Don’t let fear dominate decisions: Act out of hope and gospel truth, not anxiety about future outcomes.
5. Require participation: Don’t be afraid to require attendance and engagement in spiritual practices—just as you would with schoolwork or chores.
6. Engage doubts: Make space for kids’ questions, and pursue the answers together.

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This episode is a must-listen for any Christian parent feeling behind in shaping their children’s faith, providing both grace and actionable wisdom for turning things around—no matter where you start.

Transcript

[A]

I think so many times our kids are impacted when they, when they, when they see that we are teachable and that we are, are humble. And I mean, it can make such a huge difference for a parent like this to sit down with the kids and say, I, I'm sorry, I've just realized I, I feel like I failed you guys and, and maybe in ways I have really let you down and I'm sorry. And then to use that also as an opportunity to say, and things are not going to be the same.

[B]

Hey friends, welcome to the Elisa Childers podcast where we equip Christians to identify the core beliefs of historic Christianity, discern its counterfeits, proclaim the gospel with clarity, kindness and truth. And I am so excited to bring you this conversation that I recorded a couple months ago with Brett and Aaron Kunkel of Maven Ministries. We were recording a bunch of episodes all at the same time to be released over the course of two or three months. And looking back on this episode, I realize that I have implemented so much wisdom that they had to offer into my parenting. So Christian parents, youth pastors, aunties and uncles, pastors, school teachers, if you have a young in your life, this episode is for you. We talk about the just gargantuan, intellectual and spiritual challenges that our kids are facing and how overwhelming it can feel. If you're anything like me, you feel overwhelmed trying to parent young kids in a culture that isn't just kind of intolerant of Christian beliefs but is actively working to change our kids minds on issues like sexuality and gender. I think those are the big ones. As I talk with other Christian parents, we, we just feel really overwhelmed with the onslaught of propaganda, of arguments that are trying to change our kids minds on these topics. And it can just feel overwhelming. It can feel heavy. So this episode is for you. There is so much wisdom that Brett and Aaron have to share for Christian parents. But I wanna let you know about something else as well. Because this particular episode was so impactful in my life. As I listened back to it in preparation to release it to you this week, I was struck by the like very particular practical points of wisdom that since I recorded this conversation, I have actually implemented into my parenting. My big takeaway was man, Christian parents, we should not be timid or shy to teach our kids the truth of the biblical worldview because it is as objectively true as mathematics. It's as objectively true. I mean, these are facts, right? This isn't just preferences or opinions. So when we are instilling that truth into Our children, we are teaching them what is objectively true about reality. That was a huge takeaway for me, you know, when maybe I'm tempted to worry, too, you know, if I, if I say too much to my kids, they're going to deconstruct or something like that. So. So anyway, Christian parents, this episode's for you. But I want to let you know about one other thing we've got coming up.

[C]

Because of how powerful this episode was,

[B]

we're going to be actually doing a live Q and A with Brett and Aaron. And that's going to happen on this Thursday the 28th at 1pm Central. So that's going to be 11am Pacific, 1pm Central, 2pm Eastern. Thursday, July 28th. Brett and Erin and I are going to be all together with people like Frank Turek and J. Werner Wallace and Greg Kochl. We're all coming together for the Cross exam and Instructor Academy in Cincinnati this coming week. And so while we're there, Brett and Aaron and I are going to do a live Q and A for parents. But this is really important. It is not going to be broadcast live on this podcast feed. You will have to go to YouTube to be able to participate in the Q and A. So if you have questions, questions about parenting in this culture right now or being a youth pastor in this culture or mentoring young people, Thursday, July 28, 1pm Central. Go over to YouTube.com alisachilders and you can ask your questions live. We'll talk about all the things.

[C]

No questions will be off the table.

[B]

Brett and Aaron are so brilliant. They're so gifted in this area of Christian parenting in this culture. So tune in for that. And then eventually that will be released on the podcast stream, but it won't be live at that point. So if you want to listen live, got to go to YouTube. Thursday, July 28th, 1:00pm Central. All right, guys, I can't wait to bring you this conversation. Let's get into it

[C]

on the podcast before, we've talked about how to raise kids, how to have conversations with kids. But there's this specific question that I wanted to raise with my friends Brett and Aaron of Maven Ministries. And that is, what do you, when you have sort of failed to provide your kids with a biblical worldview or maybe a solid theological foundation, and you're realizing, man, I gotta wake up. I gotta learn this stuff for myself. I want to communicate it to my kids. But hey, now my kids are 10 and 13 or somewhere around there, and I feel like I don't know how to turn the ship around. So we are gonna discuss all things helping equip our kids with a biblical worldview in an incredibly secularized culture. It feels like an uphill battle. I am in that battle with you. I have a 10 and a 13 year old, and it is not for the faint of heart. And everywhere I go, interestingly, when I talk with Christian parents, even these are pastors and people who are in ministry, and everybody kind of says the same thing. We. Our biggest struggle is the screens. We are losing the screen battle, but we have friends who are going to help us not lose the screen battle. Brett and Aaron Kunkel of Maven Ministries. Hey, guys. How are you? Thanks for being on.

[D]

Hi, Alisa. Thanks for having us.

[A]

It's a privilege to have this conversation with you, Elisa.

[C]

Well, I love talking with you guys. In fact, Mike and I have this thing where when one of our kids, we're trying to figure out what to do as a parent, Mike and I will be like, what would Brett and Aaron do in this situation?

[A]

Well, that's great, because we have these little bands, like these wristbands that we're creating.

[C]

Yeah. WW That's a lot of letters.

[A]

Whatever.

[D]

Oh, dear.

[C]

Yeah, that's a lot of letters.

[A]

That's encouraging because we are parents who struggle just like everyone else. But hopefully there's some wisdom we can pass on.

[C]

Well, but this is the thing, though. You don't only have a ministry dedicated to help equip Christian parents to navigate these issues, but you guys honestly are doing a killer job. You are yourselves just really great parents. Mike and I talk about that all the time, just how impressed we've been when we've been with you and just observing your lives. And this is just something that I think you guys have so much wisdom to offer. So before we go any further, what I'd love for you to do is share with everyone a little bit about yourselves, your ministry, tell us about your children, and just kind of your general approach.

[D]

So our parent journey actually started in different places and in different times, which is unusual, maybe for parents, but maybe not that unusual, actually. But I became a mom when I was a senior in high school. I grew up in a Christian home and went to church every Sunday with my family. But I really didn't see how Christianity had anything to say about most of my life, especially the areas of my life that I cared about, like friends and going out and school and all those things. So I really did just go to church and then live my life the rest of the week. And by the time I got to high school, I had a boyfriend all through high school. And five months before I graduated, I found out I was pregnant. And through a friend who had, who was going to a church that had a teen mom program, I went to that church. And through that amazing little church in Anaheim, California, I came to Faith in Christ and started following him. And so that first year of out of high school, I went to junior college. I was pregnant part of that time and then had my daughter partway through. And now I'm a Christian and I'm wanting to live like one. I'm wanting to know and grow in my knowledge. And so there was a. I'm in Southern California, so Biola University is here. And I had heard about Biola and I thought I would love to go to Christian college and learn the Bible and just grow a lot. And so the next year, my daughter was almost 1 years old. And so I started as a Biola student. I was one of only two moms there, two single moms at Biola. So I started there and I just loved it. I loved my Bible classes. I started to make some good girlfriends. I had lost a lot of friends just even by having my daughter and not having an abortion, I lost some friends because at my high school I had several friends that had abortions. I knew the teacher that took the girls to get the abortions. And for whatever reason I never really considered going through with that and praise God for that. But I definitely, you know, know the, the struggle of these women who are in crisis, pregnancies. But anyway, so fast forward to now. I'm a single mom with a one year old Biola student freshman there. And that's actually where I ran into this guy here who at the time was a junior high pastor and we met at a school event. But I knew right away it would never work because pastors are like holy people. And I was a single mom. So, you know, nice guy, cute and everything, but I was like, yeah, you, we will never be able to work

[A]

the cute and everything is an understatement about how you felt at that moment. No, we came from very different backgrounds. I grew up in a Christian home. My parents got saved when I was, I was just a baby and they were on fire for the Lord and got plugged into a good local church on the east coast where we lived. And so I was raised in the church and the churches that I were a part of were good churches. I just, I, I look back on my, my church experiences and you know, I hear A lot of people who are, are deconstructing and how difficult it was for them or how, you know, harmful it may have been. I look back and go, I was part of a couple of churches that were just rich and the community was so good and, and the commitment to the Lord was so strong. So I got to grow up in that. And when we, when I was in junior high, we moved to Southern California and I got involved in a church in Southern California where the youth pastor became a huge mentor in my life. And he essentially mentored me and several other guys in our youth group right into ministry. And I had the kind of the strong foundation of a committed Christian family that was faithful to, you know, the church and the ministry. And then this youth pastor comes along and, and, and mentors me right into to being, becoming the junior high director at our church or. So I, I was a junior high pastor part time when I was a college student. And then, then that's when we met. And so it was kind of. You had two different backgrounds. It was, it was a challenge. I remember we, we went on our first date and I didn't know that Aaron was a single mom.

[D]

And well, we, that wasn't a date. That was a single school. That sounds terrible because it sounds like I wrote you in and you didn't know I was a mom. It was a school activity that I got invited on by his roommate. And it was, I mean, they called it like a group date, but it was. Your roommate assured me it wasn't like a date, which is why I showed up. And anyways, so then we go to that. And again, I'm one of two single moms at Biola. So throughout the night it was like we went to In N Out and then we went ice skating. So I'm thinking all through the night, like, how do I tell this person and even the other people we were with, like, how do you tell them you're a single mom? It's not like the easiest thing to come up in conversation because we were just kind of like talking and it's a hard thing to figure out.

[A]

So anyway, we understated so much. We were like, we were connecting.

[D]

Oh my gosh. Anyway, so at the end of the school activity, he's walking me to my car and then he asked me to go on a date, like just the two of us. And then I say, I think, okay, well this, this will not work. Like, he's a pastor, nice guy. So then I just say, well, I would, I mean, that would be great. But there's something about me you should know. And then I told him, you know, I have a daughter, you know, she's about to turn one. And I told him my story a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, that was a shocker. Well, you, you told it to me just a little bit. And then she like got in her car and drove away. So like left there stunned, not expecting that, you know, she has a daughter because that obviously that, that changes the nature of, of things and. But we ended up dating and, or dated for a year and a half, got married after I graduated. And so it was instant family for us. So Lexi, our oldest daughter was when we met, she was ten months old when we got married. She was about two and a half. And so it wasn't just, hey, okay, figure out this marriage thing. It's, let's figure out this marriage thing also. Let's parent together while we're at it.

[D]

Yeah, so that was super easy.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So our first year of marriage was quite. Actually we still say our 25th wedding anniversary is in a couple months, but we still say that first year of marriage was our hardest year for sure because we were figuring out marriage and all that comes to that. And then we were figuring out parenting, instant family and doing that together too. So it was, it was hard.

[A]

But so I ended up adopting Alexi when she was about 5 years old. And then, and we had waited to have any more kids. We, we had Micah I think about four years after we were married. So Lexi was like six at that point. So we had Micah and then we, we had Paige and then we had Ella and then we had Jonah. So we have four additional kids. So we have five total. And right now they, you know, Lexi, she's 27 now, she's married and has two kids. So that means Harry is a grandma.

[D]

He is a grandpa. Thank you, Lisa. He is a grandpa. He loves to tell people I'm a grandma.

[C]

You know, it's funny because I was out with, at the cross examine instructor academy. It was when we were in New York and Brett and all these people are getting ready to go into the city at like 10 o' clock at night. And I was like, no, I think I'm going to go back to my room. And he was like, okay, Grandma Childers. And I was. That is correct. You have correctly identified who I am going to be in this group scenario.

[A]

And ironically, I'm the one who has the grandkids.

[C]

Well, actually I do too now. Did you guys know I'm a grandma now? So my, our parenting journey Was a little bit unusual as well, is that two kids came with the marriage in my case as well. So our oldest, Michael, who has been married for two or three years now, they just had a little boy. So I have a little grandson now just as of October.

[D]

Oh, congratulations.

[A]

That's great. That's really great.

[C]

Hey, literally grab my shoulders.

[A]

We can. Together we can start a grandparent ministry.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Not ready. We're not ready for that. We've only been grandparents for four years.

[A]

Well, yeah. And our older is 27. Then we have a 20 year old and a 19 year old and then a 14 year old and a 10 year old. They're all still at home. So. So we got quite the spread.

[C]

You guys are in it, so we're

[D]

very much in it. Yeah, we're very much in it. And we've very much had to walk through hard things, figure out difficult situations, even, you know, technology has changed in the 27 years we've been parents. You know, when our oldest daughter was asking for a phone in junior high, that was a flip phone. And now, you know, the average age of kids getting AN iPhone is 10 years old. Our youngest kids age, so. So we have seen a lot change even just in the parenting world since we've been parents.

[C]

Yeah, it's really. Even the phone game. The phone game has changed so much. Just in the time, in the last five years when my daughter was. I believe it was. She was 12 when we got her. It was this kind of phone that, you know, it had no apps on it. I won't say the brand of it. A lot of parents probably know what I'm talking about. But it had no apps. You could only text and call and everything. But then she started getting these, like random spam texts that were saying things I didn't want her to hear. And at that point I was like, well, we're not doing the other one that has all the apps that everybody knows, but yet now that one's got pretty good parent control. So it's kind of like all of these things are. I feel like we are the first generation having to navigate all of these crazy things that are changing so quickly. But you guys have done a great job with this, with your ministry with Maven. I was privileged to get to be with you. I believe it was last year at your Maven conference, and I was so impressed, particularly with the Q and A portion when parents were asking, they would ask these questions and I was like, oh, man, I don't even know how I would answer that and you guys would just come at it and answer it so well. So that's why I wanted to bring you on today because I really want to give Christian parents some hope. I kind of mentioned this in the opening, but one of the really common things I encounter just when I'm having conversations with other Christian parents, and these are parents who are. They realize, you know, they're not. They're not progressive, they're not, you know, drifting towards secularism, but they don't know how to bring their kids into the Christian worldview. And I think. And I want to ask you this one question before I read to you an email that we received through the Mama Bear apologetics site, because I think you guys can really help us with it. But I want to talk a little bit about the phenomenon of deconstruction and how I think that's actually causing a lot of Christian parents to be really timid in the way we parent because we've heard these deconstruction stories and we're afraid that if we smother our, you know, if we, if we say too much about Christianity, it's gonna smother our kids, or if we are too legalistic, they're gonna rebel against that and they're gonna go into decons. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I listen to a ton of deconstruction stories and I'm parenting a kid and I see the future. I'm like, I can respond this way. And then I'm like, oh, I'm gonna send them into Dec. And it's like this constant thought that I have because you hear all these things in these deconstruction stories. And so I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. Just kind of that knee jerk reaction, I think, in a lot of parents to overcorrect from maybe some of the hyper legalism that they grew up with, or maybe overcorrecting on things like hypocrisy or things that, that have been maybe in some ways an impetus towards someone's deconstruction. But I wonder if you could, like, how do you guys think that through?

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting observation there, that, that the pendulum kind of swings. And so the deconstruction stories that we hear where often they're filled with some kind of background where there's baggage that has to do with the church, how and, and often legitimate stuff where, you know, they were hurt in the church or they weren't allowed to question and those kinds of things. And then what we do is, yeah, we swing that pendulum. And so then that can inhibit us. And so I think, I think that that definitely could be a factor for a lot of parents who then come at this more timidly. I also think, and sometimes I think there's, there's, there's multiple causes to these things. I think that you, or, you know, if you think about multiple streams, multiple factors that kind of lead into this, this larger stream. You know, I think another factor probably has to do with our view of what Christianity is. Right. Like, this would be an interesting question, I think, for parents to ask themselves and then to answer, how would you answer this question? What is Christianity? Right. If it turns out that Christianity is, it's kind of like a hobby, you know, it's kind of a, you know, it's personal preference. It's, it's, it's my belief or it's my truth or anything like that. Right. And it's not actually knowledge of reality. It's not a worldview that accurately describes reality. Well, then that I think is also going to undermine or is going to lead us to be a little more timid because you just think about how you approach your preferences or how you approach your hobbies. And even if you want, you know, you wanted someone else to enjoy your hobby, you know, it's like, well, you invite them, you say, hey, come check this out. You might like it, but you don't coerce or you don't really argue for this thing, or you don't, you know, you don't do a lot of work to persuade someone. So I think there's some of that in the background, too, along with, yeah, you've heard the, some bad stories. The church has some of its black eyes. And, and this is, I think another thought I had on this with this is, and I, I think over the years, I've learned to be kind of, to develop a healthy skepticism when people tell their stories. And I don't want that to come across like, hey, don't, don't believe people and don't believe what they say. But, but there are, there's a perspective that can creep in over time. There's a skewed view that can come in over time. And sometimes the narrative we hear about, particularly about the church and about Christians, I think can often be skewed. So, for example, you know, we hear all the time how Christians are just so horrible and treat gay people so horribly. And I was talking to a high school kid, he's 16 years old. He was on one of our immersive experiences that we do, and we're sitting on, you know, at this. This church we're staying at, had some freedom. We're talking about different issues. And he. He brings this up. He says, you know, it's just such a. It's such a bummer how the church has just treated gay people so poorly. And so I asked them, I said. I said, hey, have you grown up in the church? Like, have you been in the church all your life? He said, yeah, grew up in the church. I said, okay, so you've been in the church for 16 years. I said, how. How. How often have you seen people in your church treat gay people so badly? That leaves you with that impression? And he kind of sat there and, you know, had never been asked this before, and he sat there and he was thinking, well, I. I guess I've never actually seen somebody in my own church treat gay people badly. I said, wait a second. You. You. You've never seen somebody, a Christian in your church treat gay people badly? Because you just told me you've got this impression that, you know, there's this overall sense that you Christians do this, but you've never seen it with the people in your church. And he just sat there, he's like, yeah, that's a good point. And I said, so where did you get this impression from? And I think it's just. It's. It's important for us to constantly think through those kind of things so that we don't end up swinging the pendulum. Because if you do listen to lots of instruction stories, well, then, yeah, that can affect your perception. That can actually give you an overall negative perception. And so, I mean, for me, when I hear all of this stuff out there, and it's. A lot of times it's Christians beating up other Christians, it's Christians beating up on. On. On the church. And I am constantly reminded to look at my local congregation, to look at the people I'm with who aren't online, who aren't, you know, who are maybe struggling, who are dealing with doubt, who are thriving, whatever. But to look at that and say, okay, that. That gives me a better picture of kind of what's going on than necessarily what I'm reading online. And I think that just is. I offer that as a kind of maybe a corrective for us, because, yeah, get on, and you can see the Christian story, the deconstruction stories, and go, oh, my goodness, I don't want my kid to end up there. So I've got to Kind of handle this real.

[D]

Real gently, which I think. I was just gonna say, I think. And maybe part of your question is this, too, of which is the part about, as parents, then, how we take all this stuff and including our own stories and experiences, and then the people who we care about the most, who we would take a bullet for and give our lives for are our children. There are. I say, a lot of times as a mom, I feel like my heart walks around in five other bodies. Like, I love my children. And so when. When I think about my own kids and wanting them to follow Christ, I mean, the. That's when fear will just bubble up in my heart. So I think as parents, part of it is. Is working through some of our own baggage. We have to continue to work on sanctification, on reminding ourselves of the gospel story and how we've been redeemed. And that sometimes is hard to do. I mean, the hardest people to tell my testimony to is my own kids. Why is that? Because it's like I have a fear because I don't want them to have to go through the hard things I went through. Right. I want to protect them. I want to, you know, all those things. And so I think the best thing we can do for our kids is first just to continue to work on our own junk. And, you know, I know, Elisa, part of your story is you have this time of, you know, wondering, like, is this stuff true? And you came out of that. Well, we don't want our kids to have to go through the things we went through. So we would like to just.

[C]

Just.

[D]

Can we just move past that, you know, and. And they can be safe and perfect and. But they're not going to be. Our kids are on journeys, too. So it's a lot of time is this deep fear that we have, and we can't act out of our fear when it comes to our parenting. We will make really bad decisions. And so I think we have to be working on ourselves and also open with our kids, of course, as they get older, to share more and more of our own stories and the things that we fear and actually tell our kids. I. My biggest fear is that you would go through this time that I had to go through. I would hate that for you, you know, and even just say it. Just be honest about it as a parent.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I. What Aaron is saying there, it kind of. It reminds me. I mean, this is the approach that we're trying to help equip parents with. It's a worldview approach to parenting. And Thinking about our parenting in terms of our Christian worldview. And, you know, so it's good for parents, especially if they're struggling with their own kids and the faith of their kids, to step back and to remember the larger story in the larger worldview that we're in. And, And. And that frames all of this. So, number one, you think, well, even with my own kids, I'm never without hope. I'm never without hope because the Christian worldview helps me to know that Jesus rose from the grave 2,000 years ago. And there's no challenge, no parenting issue. There's no kid who walks away, you know, that will ever overcome that. And that, that confidence in the truth of the Resurrection, which we just celebrated a couple weeks ago at Easter, is that. That helps me to put this in. Into perspective, you know, and it also, that larger Christian story, Christian worldview helps me to understand and I think, develop proper expectations for my kids that they are fallen creatures, that they are these wonderful, beautiful things that we love so much and we're so invested in, and yet at their heart, in their heart, they are rebellious against their maker. They are. They have the fallen human nature, just like, you know, we all do. And so there's a healthy expectation that, yeah, it's the kids. There's no formula I can, you know, no perfect parenting that guarantee that this rebellious creature will, you know, honor their maker. But at the same time, there's. There's always. There's always hope in that. And, and so this is where I think maybe an encouragement for. For parents out there is don't. Don't be so focused on the moment you're in with your kid. Like, we get so focused. Like, especially if there's conflict, we get so focused on the moment, and then we lose sight of the larger picture. Right. Don't confuse that moment with larger Christian picture and Christian worldview, because then you'll lose hope. Then you. Then you'll. Then you'll despair over those things. And. And so this is where, like, within all of our parenting, the Christian worldview needs to be brought to bear on that.

[C]

That's good. And I'm glad you told that. I'm glad you told that story about the kid who was talking about how the church teaches treats. I can't speak today. I'm so glad you told that story about the kid who was under the impression that the church and Christians treat gay people poorly. And then you kind of probed a little bit like, well, you know, wow, is that your experience? And then he's like, well, actually, no. And I think that is a really key thing that a lot of parents are facing, especially in this environment of social media. Because, like, right now I mentioned deconstruction. I'm researching and writing a book on deconstruction. And part of that research is to sort of immerse myself in the echo chamber online of the deconstructionists, the movement. And there are many platforms, many to most, that are calling themselves Deconstruction or Deconstructionists, who have dedicated virtually all of their posting content to finding some wacky thing some Christian did online somewhere this week. And then they blast that out to their followers. And often they will actually say things like, hey, guys, this is what 80 to 90% of evangelicals believe, behave like, and are living out in their lives. And so. And every day there's a new post. Well, the Internet's a big place. You can find wacky things people are doing all over the Internet and then really create a narrative for people where they really believe that the average Christian is X, Y, or Z, when it may not even be based in reality at all. And that's one of the things, the things that is so terrifying for Christians is you don't just have sort of this idea of, like, man, I hope my kid believes. But, like, there's this whole movement, not just deconstruction, but atheists and scientism and everything that's out there that's really coming for our kids to try to bring them away from a Christian worldview with every kind of different avenue. And so I wonder if you could give some wisdom to Christian parents. You've done such a great job of helping us to. I love what you said, Erin, about not reacting in fear. And, Brett, I think it was you not getting stuck in this moment that really spoke to me, because that's the temptation, right? You find the one thing your kid's sort of struggling with spiritually, and you're like, oh, we've. We've blown it. It's all over. But I wonder if you could give some wisdom, like, how do you guys approach the actual discipleship, the everyday discipleship? I know that I believe your kids are on social media. It's. You haven't completely removed or isolated them from the world. In fact, you do the immersive experiences, immersing your kids into the different worldviews. Talk about that a little bit and how that looks for you on a daily basis.

[A]

I think we conceptualize it in really different stages of our kids intellectual and spiritual development and really Even years ago, when we started rethinking the education of our kids, we never had really had an explicit, well, thought through view of education from a Christian worldview. And so when we started doing that and thinking through that and reading stuff, we discovered a classical approach to education. And one of the, I think the insights in classical education is this three, seeing the education of our kids in this three stage process, what's been called the trivium. And it's, you know, there's this early stage of the grammar stage, there's the logic stage, and then there's the rhetoric stage. And those just kind of capture these important stages in our kids learning. And you build on each stage. And so at the grammar stage, you're really just kind of pouring truth and knowledge into your kid. And they're memorizing a lot of things and they're, they're getting exposed. And so for us, we really thought, okay, at that younger stage, we want to be pouring the what into them? Christian worldview, theology, scripture even, and memorizing, you know, whether it's hymns or scriptures or some of the creeds or catechism. And we wanted to build a real strong foundation of the what early on. And then by the time they get into maybe fifth or sixth grade, they're moving into that logic stage. Sometimes it's even before that. But really in that logic stage, they're starting to think more abstractly. They're starting to ask the why questions. And this is where sometimes parents will get bothered because the kids are asking why and they take it as like a threat to their, their authority, when really, and sometimes it is, let's, let's be honest, you know, it's just rebellion. But oftentimes they just want to know what are the reasons why I should believe X, Y or Z. And at that stage, we want to play into that. We want to give them that and give them the reasoning and teach them how to think. And then when they get into basically in high school, they're at that rhetoric stage. And what you basically do is you take the truth and then good thinking and reasoning skills and then they learn how to articulate that. And so you teach the what and then you teach the why and then you teach the how to. And that has really been kind of our model for what we're doing with our own kids. And one of the things that Aaron's done really at a young age with the kids is something that she's instituted in our home called morning time. That's been a really helpful, practical tool. For discipleship.

[D]

Yeah, and that's just kind of that early stage. And so, yeah, for parents listening whose kids are young, you start this young of just knowing you're passing on the truth to them, and so you don't have to devote hours and hours of a day. It's basically thinking about. I think a good way to think about it is in the way of thinking about habits and kind of what are the habits that we want to train our kids in? And so some of those habits are that we order our lives in a proper way. And so part of ordering our lives is that the first things are first. And so as a family, I want our first things to be around truth and reality. So the truth is that we have a God who made us and all things, and so we go to him every day to remind ourselves of truth. And then. Yeah, and then as. As the kids get older, you start giving them reasons why and you start asking them questions, too. They're going to start forming their own beliefs. So if your kid is pushing against you, well, you start pushing against them too, and saying, well, okay, you're saying that this is a great movie. Why do you think it's a great movie? What's the message about it that you love so much? Or, you know, you. You can start asking them questions too, or, or just even with us, you know, same. Okay, you believe in God? Sixth grader, in the Kunkel family. Why? What reasons do you have besides that? This is what we've been teaching you, but what are the reasons why and the how to part of it? I would just say at Maven, we say, you know, we teach young people what to believe, truth and why we believe it, and then why it matters. And I know as a young person, that's what I was missing. I was missing the why, but I was missing the why it matters. And that's really engaging our kids and starting to see the ideas all around us and how to think through it. And that the Christian life is actually a really exciting life. And so, yeah, you want to say, well, I think.

[A]

I think what's part of what's key is that as we conceptualize teaching these different stages, we realize that some of this is outside of the home or outside of the quote unquote classroom. Like, I think so much of our education and discipleship is kind of in the four walls of our homes or our churches, and that's where it stays. And this is why that third stage is so important. And I think that's missing even if you're teaching the what and the why. And it's just kind of the classroom setting that's not adequate. You need the articulation part, because there's several things that happen when you get it out of the classroom and into real life. And this is really the whole philosophy behind our immersive experiences is, number one, the deeping. Go. The deeping. The learning goes a lot deeper. Because what ends up happening is, you realize, okay, that book I read or that lecture I listened to, I thought I knew it, but now I'm engaging with somebody who doesn't believe what I believe. They're challenging it, and now I'm having trouble articulating it. So, number one, it exposes. Oh, I don't know this as well as I think I do. In fact, this is why when I go into youth ministries or, you know, work with young people, I'll often do a role play. Because if I role play an atheist or I role play a Mormon, it helps them to see, you know, oh, I don't know all that. I think I knew. I'm not as confident, you know, and so that's what, you know, getting it out of the classroom, getting it into conversations, taking them on a field trip to the local mosque, whatever that might be, is really helpful because then it can motivate. It can motivate their learning. But then. But then, secondly, it helps this stuff to become not just theoretical, but it's. This is. I am following a man. I am following Jesus. I'm not just following propositions. Right. But there's a. And there's this life transformation that comes about, and now I'm living everything I know. And the truth that I'm learning, I'm now living out the Great Commission, which is the primary purpose of the New Testament Church. And yet so much of our lives are disconnected from that. So no wonder kids are passionless about their Christian faith. So I think all three of those stages are so important. But you start young, and then you start adding those, you know, those. Those later stages.

[C]

Yeah. So starting young, this is. And this is what I want to sort of touch on, because. So for context here, this reminds me of something I was just listening to this week. I don't know if you guys are aware of this rising movement of millennial families that are just like, buying farms, milking their own cows, churning their own butter, having like, eight, nine kids. I mean, this is like, you can go on Instagram and YouTube. There's podcasts. So I've been a little bit fascinated by this. And so I've been listening to some random podcasts and it's sort of funny because typically I listen to theology and apologetics podcast, but then it's been like how to raise chickens or what you need to know about owning a dairy cow. I'm no idea why I'm so fascinated, but one of the podcast episodes I was listening to had to do with teaching your kids to be hard workers. And it's almost. It's funny because we're talking about a Christian worldview and they were talking about just teaching them to not be lazy bums. But it's very similar. It's so much the same thing. And that's what one of these moms was saying is you have to involve them in the daily chores as early as possible. Just make this a complete. And they were talking about just even the Reward that a 2 year old feels when they're a part of the team. We know, you know, even the two year old knows that they're necessary like with what they bring to the. To the table quite literally actually is makes them feel very valuable. And so just kind of listening to that. But then at the same time I know that there are people, parents listening who are like, well, great, I wish I would have known this when My kid was 5 months old. But now I've got a 10 and a 13 year old. So I'd like to read this email that came in through the Mama Bear apologetics site. Hillary sent this to me and I thought this is so well articulated about where I think so many people who are even listening to this today might be coming from. I think this has been super helpful for people who are just starting out their families. Like, yes, I'm gonna grab hold of this from the time my kid's really young, but. But there's probably a lot of people who are just waking up to realize like, I haven't done any of this and my kids are heading toward teenage years. So here's the email and then I'd love to give you guys an opportunity to comment on this. So this woman says hello. I'm a mom of a tween and teen, 12 and 14 years old. Up until this year, I've considered myself a progressive Christian, which I've come to deeply regret. The things that have happened since COVID started has not only resulted in a political conversion for me, but also a religious one. I now realize how much I've allowed the culture of love and acceptance to blur biblical truth. I'm on my way to reconfiguring my personal Christian views. But I don't even know where to begin with my kids. I've raised them with a God loves everyone and live your truth mentality, while minimizing the importance of the Bible, church, and God himself. I'm at a loss how to talk about Jesus and the Bible with my kids since I've been so blase about it with them for their entire lives. My son claims he doesn't even believe in God, while my daughter feels there's a creator of some sort, but that he does not have any involvement with the world. Both are quite resistant to even talking about the subject. The fact that they are teenagers makes me feel like I'm too late to introduce them to God and the Bible. Do you have any suggestions?

[A]

Yeah, well, Aaron, you take that one.

[C]

Aaron.

[D]

Actually, that just in that first paragraph of what the mom's saying about her own journey reminds me of what we were talking about earlier. And the first thing, if that mom was sitting there with me, I would say, have you told your kids what. What has been going on with you? Like, I would start with, like, doing family dinner at the kitchen table. Get rid of all phones and screens, look your children in the eye and say, I realize that I have been wrong for eight years, or I have been wrong. I have had a totally incorrect view of God, and this is how I realized it. And I would invite them to hear your story, because kids respond to that because we are being humble. We are not sitting them down saying, okay, you guys, you need to learn this stuff because this is important. And I'm about to tell you what you need to know. You know, this is a completely different posture of humbleness. And then I would say from, you know, from a really honest point of just saying. And I realize I have not taught you guys the truth, and I'm. I've really been convicted in this. So one thing that I want our family to do is to start looking for truth together. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't grow in this by yourself. Like, I would. I would do it with your kids. And even if they. They might not, you know, skip their way to the kitchen table when you're saying, come, I want to talk about this stuff, but you started a place of humbleness. And I would invite them to do this with me, to seek truth together wherever it leads. And so I would just start with confessing that, like, I taught you guys, God loves everybody. Actually, that's probably not the best way to talk about it. I should have said, God made everybody, and God has a will for people to follow. But people rebel and you know, and start talking to them just in that way. And if she's reading a good book to start, maybe once a week do a family dinner. Family dinner is not negotiable. If you live in the house, you're doing it. And read a little bit from that book and say, okay, what do you guys think? And just start engaging with them on what is going on with you. That is just my first thought.

[C]

So good.

[A]

Well, that was my first thought too.

[C]

Oh, I'm so sure she stole your thunder there, Brett.

[A]

It was so brilliant, Aaron, what you said there. But no, yeah, I think, I think there's a. Sometimes we think we have to, as parents we have to have our, all of our stuff in order and we're coming from this place of I'm the, I'm the authority and so therefore I should be at a certain level and I should have this certain level of knowledge and, and then I can dispense that onto you. And you know, and I think so many times our kids are impacted when they, when they, when they see that we are teachable and that we are humble. And I mean it can make such a huge difference for a parent like this to sit down with the kids and say, I'm sorry, I've just realized I feel like I failed you guys and maybe in ways I have really let you down and I'm sorry. And then to use that also as an opportunity to say, and things are not going to be the same and to say we're going to reset in this family. And that might. So maybe it's a, you know, maybe this, this starts with a big family meeting where mom and dad and kids or if you're a single parent, it's you and your kids. You sit down and say, hey, I need to share some things, I need to confess some things, I need to apologize. And then also we're going to reset. And part of that reset is going to mean that you guys are going to have to have some different expectations and then also as a parent to have expectations that, yeah, they might give when if they're 12 and 14, they may go kicking and screaming into this. But one thing that I think parents need to be careful of is not condi. Like not measuring the effectiveness of their parenting or the effectiveness of what they're doing based upon the kids receptive reception receptivity to it or their acceptance of it. Look, our job primarily as parents is to be as faithful as we can to, to the wisdom and the principles that are in Scripture to teach the truth and knowledge of the Scriptures, to raise our kids in the fear of the Lord, all that. But we can be faithful to those tasks and yet we don't guarantee the results. So we're faithful. We leave the results to the Lord. And I know that that's hard for parents, but, but, but that may relieve some parents of some of the guilt that you, I think you hear in, in the sweet mom's, you know, email.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Can I just add too like thinking about the 12 and 14 year old, I think is what she had. So I think it's helpful to think about it in terms of habits and like what, what you're saying, Brett, about them, you know, their willingness to go along. If you think about, in habits, you think, okay, so I've trained them in this way, these habits for 12 and 14 years. That's a long time. And now I'm suggesting we shift. So developing new habits is going to take time and it's going to take work. And so our expectation should be this is going to be hard, but it's certainly a worthy task. And sometimes the best things are the hardest things to do. And so, yeah, if we haven't done good habits with our teenagers, which we can totally relate to, of course, there's been times where we've had family meetings. I mean, I'm thinking of one a couple years ago where we sat down and said, okay, we realize our technology habits, like we used to take better breaks, like the whole family, we haven't done that in a while. So just letting you guys know, we're going to start doing that again because we realize we've laxed on some things and we've created even bad habits for ourselves. And so we do this sort of thing. And of course, the older the kids are, the older we are, how hard is it for us to change habits? This mom is now going to attempt to change the way she views God sees Christianity. This is hard work. It's worthy work, but it's hard. And so just to offer that, that grace to yourself, but also to your kids. Oh, I'm trying to reorient them now, so it might even be painful. It's going to be hard, but that's okay. That's okay. Because we know it's good.

[A]

Yeah. And be prepared in addition to that then. So like, we're kind of laying out some steps here. And in addition to that, be prepared to make your kids do things they don't want to do. And I want to make sure we're explicit about that because I think there's this, and I think you captured some of it, Elisa, when you talked about our, you know, timidity about, you know, whether we're afraid of them deconstructing or whatever. And we, and so we. I'll hear parents say, well, I don't want to, I don't want to coerce them, I don't want to force them into the faith. And now, of course there's going to be different approaches at different ages, but let's say we're dealing with a 12 and a 14 year old. Well, part of your job as a parent when they're 12 and 14 is actually to get them to do things they don't want to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think sometimes maybe we even betray our view of Christianity when we take kind of this, this, this timid approach and we say, well, I don't want to coerce them, I don't want to force them into belief. Well, I think here's an analogy maybe to make sense of this. Like, what if your kid said, you know what, I don't like mathematics or I don't like science class, I don't like biology, I'm kind of over it and I just, I don't want to, I don't want to go to class anymore. Or what if they said, I don't want to go to school anymore, you know, and are, are you as a parent gonna quote, unquote, coerce them? Right. Are you gonna force them to go? I'm guessing every parent out there is like, yeah, even if my kid says they don't want to go to school, I make them go to school.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, why? Well, because you think that somehow they're getting training in knowledge and in, in, in the truths of reality so that they can be a well educated person and, and you know, whatever, or go on to college and get a degree and a job and all that stuff. Right. Well, but then we take this approach to Christianity, like, well, I'm not going to force them to go to church. I'm not going to force them to do things they don't want to do. What we do that in almost every other area. I mean, not only school and academics, but in their eating habits. Right. And so I think oftentimes maybe we need to strengthen our own convictions that Christianity is knowledge of reality.

[C]

It's good. Yeah.

[A]

And in fact, it's the most important knowledge of reality. And this is why the medieval Christians called it, you know, theology was the queen of the sciences and this whole view, the Christian worldview, gave birth to the university because it was only in our knowledge of God and his, you know, his word that it brought every other aspect of reality into unity. And so we end up having this view, like, well, I don't want to coerce them to believe something. Well, in one sense, you can't coerce them. I mean, yeah, you can't. You're not going to force them to believe something, but you can, you can get them to do things they don't want to do. And in that, with the goal that you get them to a point where they ultimately do want to do that thing by letting them off the hook and saying, well, you know, okay, if you don't want to go to church and you're 12 years old, well, then I'm not going to make you go to church, that you may actually be undercutting yourself that way. And so there's, now there's a, there's. There's some battles. You, you, you're going to have to, I think, kind of weigh and figure out what are the battles to fight for. For us in our home, church would be one of them. You know, a commitment to the, the body of Christ would, would be a huge priority. And then as they get older, you're also explaining the why behind it. You're giving the why. So I'm not just going to force you to do this. I have good reasons why I want you to do this. And so that's just one example, I think, of just preparing ourselves to do some of the hard things that the culture really fights, I think, against and mitigates against that kind of view. And it's. Then it's called forcing or coercing or something like that. And of course you don't want to do that.

[C]

Yeah. It's so clear when you say it, when you even compared it to school. It's like there's nobody who's going to say, all right, you know, you're 12 and you don't want to learn math, so I'm not going to make you go to school. You know, you do. You live your truth or whatever. And that's because we know that they need to know math. And that's. Math is objective. It's based in objective truth. And you're right. It's like to approach faith more like, well, you know, I don't want you to have a bad taste about church. Nobody says that about math. I don't want you to have a bad taste in your mouth about math. And so you're right. I think that really does make us all have to do a head check and a heart check. Like, do we believe that Christianity is as true as math? Because it is, you know, and that's a really good thing for us to be thinking about. Well, this has just flown by, but I want to invite people to go to patreon.com alisachilders to sign up for our Patreon group where you get to ask the questions for the little bonus hangout time that we have together. And we've got some great questions to ask Brett and Erin today. But as we close out this portion, Brett and Erin, I wonder if you could just leave our listeners with some encouragement. I know there's probably a lot of parents, I would guess there are probably zero parents that are listening to this that are like, yep, that's everything. I knew I'm, I'm nailing it. I'm killing this parenting thing. So what, what encouragement can you leave us with? Maybe just one or two little practical things that we could do today that we could start integrating today to just start to do a better job at giving our kids a solid, solid foundation with a Christian biblical worldview?

[A]

Yeah, I would say maybe, number one, especially if you have kids that are like preteens or teens, maybe the first thing you do with your kid is you sit them down at the dinner table and you say, hey, we just, we want to, we want to get a little more serious about our faith. We want to redouble our efforts here as a family. And I know, and if your kids are struggling, say, hey, I know you guys are struggling with this. Maybe you're struggling with belief in God or whatever. So here's the first thing we're going to do. I'm, I've got a piece of paper and I got a, a pen and I want, I'm going to shut up. And you just tell me what are your biggest doubts? What are your struggles? What are your, what are the big questions you have? And I'm not going to try and answer them right now. I just want you to be honest and get help your kids get that stuff on the table and begin to foster kind of some honest and open communication. And when those kids can really get that, you know, their deep seated doubts out on the table without you pouncing on them, without there being a defensiveness and you just, you sit, you listen, you shake your head and you say, I'm going to think about this. And you can kind of create that, that safety in doubting that is going to be a good first step for a parent because, number one, it's going to tell your kids. Okay, yeah, mom and dad, they want to make a change here, and they're going to listen a little bit. And you know what, it's also okay for me to express this. And I think as a parent, look, I want my kids to do, if they're struggling with doubt, I want them to express that to me first before they ever leave my house. You know, it's a way better strategy to get those things out on the table here now with me so that I, the person who cares most about you, can help you walk through that. And so then you get those questions and you say, okay, how about we work on these maybe one by one over time now? And I'm going to take your question seriously and I'm going to go do some research first and I'm going to find some good resources. I'm going to think about this and we're going to come back and, and we're going to tackle your first question right here. So that'd just be, I think, a really practical thing parents could do.

[C]

It's great.

[D]

My, my thought. I mean, there's a lot of things that run through my mind, but I guess I, I'm thinking about the, the Christian parent and starting to take seriously how we view kind of all areas of parenting. And this is what Brett and I try to do on the Maven Parent podcast is like, you brought up that example of how you're watching these farmers now milk cows and how work is a part of their whole family. Well, that's, that's actually a Christian view of work and of human beings because we have our kids work around the home. Because one thing it does is it dignifies them as human beings that we know they are capable of doing things. You know, I mean, years ago, I had never even thought about a Christian view of work. I mean, Brett talked about we. I had never even thought there was a Christian view of education. Like, what does that mean? But there's, there's a Christian view of technology. There's a Christian view of all kinds of things. And so starting to think as a parent, what, what views from the culture am I just absorbing, especially in this area of parenting. And I think a big one is discipline, because I'm thinking about this mom who has a 12 and 14 year old. Well, you can't sit down and have a conversation with them if there isn't a posture of respect. And not just respect to mom. But just respect, even as a family towards each other, if siblings don't treat each other with respect, it's really hard to have any conversations, let alone important ones. So if we don't have a Christian view of discipline and the authority that we should have as parents, that we know our kids are the two things Brett talked about. Every human being is made in the image of God, so they have dignity, and they are image bearers, and because of that, have so much value. So that's all of our children, and that should instruct how we discipline them, but also that each person has a rebellious heart. And so we know that our children need our discipline, our instruction. They need to learn how to treat other people. And so that's, you know, that's all part of Christian parenting and not segment off, you know, oh, the. The time where we pass along the faith is just the time that we're reading the Bible. We pass along the faith when we have our kids engage in work. We pass along the faith to our kids when we teach them how to get along as siblings. I mean, it's every area. So maybe it's just realizing, wow, what am I just taking as advice from the culture or taking as normal? You know, because that's culture so powerful. Because it just tells us this is what's normal. This is what. It's normal that you sit at a restaurant as a family now, and everyone has their own screen. It's normal. I see it. We see it constantly, you know, and that's the power of it, right? It's just like, oh, this is what families do. They go out to dinner, and they're all on screens. And so all of these areas of life and starting to bring a Christian worldview to how we even think about our families.

[C]

So good, Brett, you should marry her. Like, that was some good stuff right there.

[D]

You lucky guy.

[C]

You lucky guy. All right, guys, I want to send everybody to your podcast, your ministry. You do conferences, so much great stuff to help people. Maybe there's, you know, parents who have been inspired by what they heard today. Let us know where they can find you, how they can connect with your ministry to kind of keep that going, that inspiration going, and just step by step to try to make better decisions in our parenting. I know. That's what I tried to do. I just. I try to do what Brett and Aaron would do. That's what I do.

[A]

Well, we're selling bracelets on our website. What would Brett and Aaron do? Bracelets. Actually, if you go to our website, it's maventruth.com and you can explore more about what we're doing there. I'd encourage people to scroll to the bottom of that homepage, put their first name, last name, and email address, and get on our email list. Because we send out resources. And one of the big resources that we have is our Maven Parent Podcast. We release episodes every week where we really try to take all the issues of parenting, whether it is teaching your kids apologetics all the way to disciplining them or helping them to struggle or making them go to church or whatever it might be. We try to really help bring a Christian worldview to bear on every issue of parenting. So the podcast can be found on all the typical podcast places. We put it on YouTube as well. And then the other thing that we do is we do our annual Maven conference in Southern California, and it's a conference to equip parents to pass on Christian knowledge and truth and worldview to the next generation.

[C]

All right, well, I want to thank my guests, Brett and Erin Kunkel. If you're listening on audio platforms like Google, Spotify, itunes, it always helps if you go leave a five star review if you saw this post on social media. Clicking like and share also helps out. And of course, subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. It helps that algorithm get this out into the news feeds of more people. So thanks so much for watching and we'll see you next time.

[D]

Sa.