← The Alisa Childers Podcast
The Alisa Childers Podcast
#367 Inside the Occult: Ritual Magick, the Golden Dawn, and the Way Out | Jac Marino
01:02:20
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- [00:00]
A
You know, Jesus isn't someone you have to submit to. He's not the Lord of your life. You don't have to follow the authority of the Bible. You are your own authority. And Jesus is how just to show you how to live or in the occult, to show you how to attain union with the divine.
- [00:25]
B
Hey friends, I have an incredibly powerful and encouraging conversation for you today with my friend Jack Marino. I've been on aware of Jack's story for several years. In fact, she's come on the podcast in the past to share her story of coming out of drug addiction, alcohol addiction. She was deeply ensnared by the occult and new age. She was actually a self professed sorceress who practiced ritual magic. She shared that story on the podcast before and today's episode is all about her new book. I'm so excited about this book coming out. I'm gonna tell you about that in a second. But I wanna let you know that today's episode is brought to you by our friends at We Heart Nutrition. Brand new sponsor today. So excited to tell you more about them in a little bit, but you can go to weheartnutrition.com and use the code ALISA for 20% off your first purchase. Okay, guys. This conversation with Jack was so practical. We shared a little bit of her story, but actually dug deeper into the details of what she came out of. More specifically, it was called the Order of the Golden Dawn. Now that might sound out there, that might sound like something that none of us would be vulnerable to, but she really shares how she was ensnared into these things, what drew her in, what lured her, what began even luring her as a very young girl. And then she's got some really practical advice for parents about how we can help our kids avoid some of these pitfalls. Her book is called Overcoming the Darkness of the New Age and Occult with the Light of God's Truth. That is coming out on July 7th. I really want to encourage you to pre order this book wherever books are sold. I've told you this before on the podcast, but when you pre order a book, it signals the retailers that, oh, people are interested in this, we need to order more of it and then they maybe even can print more and make sure that everybody has enough to go around. Really want you to pre order this book. I can't wait to read it again. It's called Overcoming the Darkness of the New Age and Occult with the Light of God's Truth. We'll put a link to where you can Pre order that in the show notes for today's episode. And here is Jack Marino. Well, Jack, I would love to start with you just giving a thumbnail sketch of your story. Of course we did an episode a few years back detailing your story of coming out of the occult. And I that that was so impactful for a lot of people. So I want to just make note of that for anybody who wants to go back in the archives and watch the whole thing. But just give us the flyover because God has really done so much in your life and especially just in the last few years as you began to speak more publicly about your story and about your time in the new age and the occult.
- [02:58]
A
Yes. Well, God is so amazing. I'm truly continue to be so in awe of who he is and how he redeems sinners like us, like me. And so I just am so thankful for you having me on years ago. That was really the one of first times I shared my testimony. And it was such a blessing seeing how God used it. I was so afraid to talk about it. And yet to see the fruit of how Christ was glorified and people were drawn to him was so awesome. And so basically I come from a past of childhood sexual abuse. My dad struggled with drug and alcohol addiction and I really struggled in childhood. And in that lack of identity, in that pain, I ran to supernatural experiences and the highs of them as a form of escapism, self harm, all those things. But really I was drawn towards the idea that I could control my reality. And when I learned about the law of attraction in high school, read the book the Secret, that was super alluring to me that in my world of pain there was quote unquote an answer. And even though I had been raised somewhat in the church, I don't remember hearing the gospel. And this gave a worldview to my supernatural experiences. So dove into the law of attraction, got into a very painful relationship with a man who became like a New age guru to me. Believed we were twin flames, soulmates, all these lies that brought in karma and reincarnation. And I got into crystal magic burning man type festivals and just deep in the new age. And when that relationship ended, I was totally at the end of myself and was thinking, okay, my Christian dogma is holding me back from being truly liberated spiritually. And I want to get to the core of the power to gain true control over my reality. I thought that the answer was to cast off whatever Christianity humanity had ingrained in my mind. And so I dove deep into the occult, led by signs and omens and quote, unquote, spirit guides. Until I found myself drawn to an order called the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. I found a chapter or an order that practiced in my city, Los Angeles, and I was initiated into it in a Masonic Temple. And that resulted in me practicing ritual, magic and a whole lot of darkness. And in God's amazing grace, it was there in that darkness that he met me. Because the order was using scripture out of context and in rituals. So I thought I might as well read the Bible for myself. And God used His word to pierce me with truth. He used faithful men. I heard a pastor on the radio that was preaching the gospel, and I was like, what is this? This is truth. There's freedom, there's forgiveness somewhere. And then my grandpa came and shared John 14:6. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. And I was convicted. And ultimately, eventually, even in spite of my pride, God saved me in my darkest hour, not when I cleaned myself up or made myself right or work my way to Him. God saved me by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, when I respond to the gospel and repentance and faith. And I've been so amazed at the true freedom that is in the true Jesus. The one who truly lived, truly died on the cross on behalf of sinners like me, bearing God's wrath, raising from the dead that those who believe in him and turn from their sin can have eternal life. And so I just continue to be so amazed by who Jesus truly is, not the false Jesus that I once believed in. And I'm so thankful to be able to testify that he truly saves.
- [06:30]
B
That's so awesome. And since we talked last, you've gotten married.
- [06:34]
A
Yes.
- [06:34]
B
That is so awesome. Congratulations. How many years have you been married now?
- [06:39]
A
Four years in April.
- [06:41]
B
That's awesome. Congratulations for that. You know, you mentioned that it was like a sense of control or that's one of the things that led you to this. And I'm seeing so much of this with people I know. I see it all over the deconstruction movement, where people who were raised in the church, they're not necessarily anymore leaving Christianity for atheism. I mean, that still exists certainly, but you see a lot more people leaving Christianity being drawn to agnosticism, but even more so, possibly even being drawn to the occult and the new age and new thought. You know, the crystal thing seems to be really catching on. What do you think in general? I know. Maybe you can extrapolate A bit more on the control aspect of it, but what else do you think is drawing people away from Christianity into those things? And I don't want to complicate the question too much, but is there. You know, when I studied the New Age, it seemed like there was also, like a mixing of Jesus into it as well. So there was like, of course, a rejection of, like, a traditional version of Christianity, but there was this acceptance of some version of Jesus in at least the things I was looking at, maybe. Can you comment on some of that? And why do you think so many people are being drawn away from Christianity into different types of New Age in the occult?
- [07:53]
A
Yes. Well, that is. You're hitting the nail on the head. That is such a good point. And I mean, for me, it was really power, identity, control. And it feels really good to be told that you can be your own authority, that you are the arbiter of truth, and basically you can do what you will. And that's a huge tenant in the occult is do what thou wilt. Ultimately, back in the garden, in Genesis 3, that same life from the serpent in the garden, that you will be like God. It's super attractive to be told that we actually are the ones with the power and control to control our reality, to make our will be done. And I don't want to not talk about the fact that people have gone through real pain. And some people, really, I do believe, have been. The Bible has been mishandled, and so they have heard scripture twisted, and then they think that's what Christianity is. And then for other people just going through pain in their life, we have this. James one talks about us being lured away and enticed by our own desires. And we have this desire to be like God, to be the master of our fate, to be the one in control of reality. And I found that the law of attraction in the occult promised to put the wand in my hand, that I actually could have whatever I wanted, be whoever I wanted, and that there was a power inside of me to be tapped into and awakened. I didn't need a healer. I could heal myself. All these things that are so attractive to our flesh and remind me so much of the enemy, it's ultimately the same author behind these things. But I see that a lot. And to your point about a false Christ, a huge part of the New Age and the occult is, a lot of the time people will embrace Christ, say they believe in Jesus, but they just. I just believed that I had a higher view, a higher knowledge of who Jesus actually is. More of a Christ consciousness, meaning basically that Jesus realized his divinity with God, realized his union with God, and that we could do that too. So again, it's making yourself like God. But that was really grown in the occult where Jesus became a type to become. And so the real historical person of Jesus Christ, the only Jesus that can truly save, was altered into this, you know, quote unquote, higher knowledge. But it just becomes a symbol that there's no power behind and there's no forgiveness behind. But rather than being able to have salvation, you have to save yourself. You must become Jesus. And whether you're deep in the occult and that's going on or just in the attractiveness of the world today, it sounds good that, you know, Jesus isn't someone you have to submit to. He's not the Lord of your life. You don't have to follow the authority of the Bible. You are your own authority. And Jesus is how, just to show you how to live or in the occult, to show you how to attain union with the divine, you know, And
- [10:40]
B
I think for so many Christians, some of it might be obvious. Like if somebody shows up to a Christian's door and says, hey, would you like to order? I mean, to join the hermetic order of the golden dawn, probably Christians, are you like. Yeah, maybe not. But so much of this can sort of masquerade as something Christian. Ish. So you talked about the law of attraction and manifesting and that sort of thing. And there are whole denominations, even within evangelical Christianity, who almost buy into a similar thing where the belief that your prayers create reality, that your words create reality, which is really, you know, traced back to new thought and things like that. So it seems like there's this crisis of discernment in the church where, you know, maybe the Bible says the devil comes as an angel of light, so he's not gonna show up with his, you know, Harry Potter cloak and his, his sickle. And, you know, maybe he will for some, but it seems like it's more subtle than that. Can you talk about the crisis of discernment among Christians and why, why are so many Christians and maybe even people who grew up in the church know better, you know, getting into some of this stuff?
- [11:45]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I, I think of the Puritan. Thomas Brooks talks about Satan presenting the lure or the bait, but hiding the hook. And I just see that so much with what's going on is that there's something very attractive presented. Whether a person's sin proclivity or sin bent is towards darkness. It's Still a lie, a deception that there's some good there, there's something to be gained or else they wouldn't do it, most likely. Or if it's, you know, painted really beautiful and not with the thorns and the skulls and the scary things on it, like the law of attraction, like name it and claim it or, you know, those kind of things. They look pretty, they sound Christian, but. And it's very attractive to think again that we are the ones in control. And not to take this a totally other way, but when I was being drawn to the Hermetic Order of the golden dawn and I was deep in the occult, I, I was going through very scary supernatural experiences that were really scaring me at that point. It was very dark, really beyond words that I have. And so I wanted some form of Jesus, but I didn't want to submit to the Bible and I didn't want to submit to the Lord. But I used, I thought of Jesus as a protective symbol. And so I was kind of navigating, you know, do I go this direction, do I go that direction? I was, was drawn toward a Masonic order called the Eastern Star. And I had family members that were in the Order of the Eastern Star. And I was like, oh no, I can't join that because the symbol is an upside down pentagram basically, and you know, that's associated with Satan and these scary things are going on. And I started identifying as a Christian again, just as this higher Christian. And the Hermetic Order of the golden dawn symbol has a cross. And so I use that to justify. No, Christ is a central figure in this order. And I'm just gaining what the truth about what the Bible really meant. And I'm casting off dogma. That's a huge thing in the occult, in Rosicrucianism, in, in these lies that, you know, Christianity has a dogma like a glass ceiling that's holding you back and that you need to break out of it, break free and really find the power for yourself. And so I think a lot of it comes down to a desire, sinful desire to have power and control over our reality. And again, I, I think some of that comes from pain in our life, wanting. I know that divination and these things were so attractive to me because who could hurt me again if I believed I could see the future? There were so many protective, mechan protective techniques and mechanisms to what I was trying to learn. It was, it was in fear, but the way that I was trying to deal with it was sinful and grasping at these Occult tools that ultimately, even though I didn't see it at the time, were leading to my destruction and brought me into such deep darkness.
- [14:38]
B
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- [18:41]
A
Yes, great question. So the golden dawn was founded in the late 1800s, and it was a magical orphan order and really emphasized practical magic, whereas it was heavily influenced by Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism. Rosicrucianism is basically a pseudo Christian occultism. But, yeah, while Rosicrucianism is more philosophical theories and ideas, and the golden dawn was practical, the practice of occult science, they would call it, and it was founded by Three master masons, meaning that they had the. They'd finished the highest degree of the basic system of masonry called craft, or Blue Lodge Masonry. And really, I go a lot more into it in a book that I recently wrote, the history of it. But the heart of it was the practice of magic. And the word hermetic has to do with a legendary figure named Hermes Tries Magistus, which was basically an amalgamation of the Greek Hermes and the Egyptian Thoth that wrote these works or allegedly wrote these works that talked about alchemy, magic, astrology, a lot of things like that. And so hermetic means having to do with those ideas, those works. So the golden dawn basically practices magic, but it wasn't. I never saw it when I was in it as dark at all. The whole thing was the great work, the greatest good of all concerned. And ultimately, it was to purify your soul, to, quote, unquote, alchemize your soul, which had to do with balancing powers. But all that to say the original Order of the golden dawn fell apart in the early 1900s. And I didn't really understand why I was being so drawn to this order. I was just, at that time in my life, so lost. So following signs and omens like a puppet on strings. Just anything, every number was a sign, every sound was a. Things would glow to me. I was truly out of my mind. It was a very dark time. But I had purchased these tarot cards that were made by Aleister Crowley. And inside of them was a booklet that talked about the Hermetic Order of the golden dawn. And Crowley's. Crowley used to be in the Golden Dawn. And so that really, there were all these breadcrumbs on my trail that ultimately led me to the golden dawn, though I didn't understand why exactly. Now, once I finally met with a man before I was initiated, and we talked, everything that he said was exactly what the signs had been leading me to. Astrology, alchemy, magic, Thoth, all these things. So it felt like for the first time in so long, someone was speaking my language, and that I'd been being trained for it my whole life, because I tried to make very clear that it wasn't that one day I woke up and decided to join this Hermetic Order. And, you know, that would have been very jarring, but it was this very slow burn, like an ember that gradually grows and grows incrementally until it becomes this raging, destructive wildfire. But by the time it's grown so much, it just felt familiar. That was me that These ideas were planted so young that by the time I'm in this order practicing these things, it didn't seem dark at all. It just seemed familiar. It seemed like the progression, the seeds from my childhood coming to fruition, and now I was understanding the symbolism behind it. But the golden dawn, even though it fell apart in the 1900s, the one that I joined, claimed to hold true to the system of magic and the traditions of the founders. And. And mainly that they offered a physical initiation in a temple in Los Angeles so that we could all meet, practice magic together, and do this great work together. And so, yeah, the whole thing just breaks my heart. It's all. It's hard to think about because of the O's and everything, but. But really something that I didn't know at the time is that the golden dawn heavily influenced what we know of today as Western occultism as well as Wicca came largely from the Golden Dawn. And even a lot of what we think of as a New Age movement came from the golden dawn and that system of magic. So I didn't know at the time the roots, but my heart was I want to get to the core of the power. I want to cast off the dogma. And that's where I was led. So looking back, it's interesting to see just how truly crafty and deceitful the enemy is. I think of Revelation 12, 9 that says that Satan is the deceiver of the whole world. I love John 8, 44, that talks about Satan being a liar, the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning. And that's so true. And he's the person who I was following and really ended up in such a dark place.
- [23:29]
B
What year was it that you bought the tarot cards? Do you remember?
- [23:34]
A
That would have been somewhere around 2015.
- [23:37]
B
Okay, because that's interesting. I was going to ask you right before you said that, how do you get led into something like this? But then as you were talking and obviously you made it clear, it was kind of that through the booklet and thing that you found in the tarot cards. But I'm thinking about today how TikTok is now just this massive machine of drawing people into all sorts of things. I would just best guess, I would venture a guess that Tick Tock is a huge portal that people maybe get drawn into things like this. Have you observed that maybe ramp up since your time?
- [24:10]
A
Oh, yes. It's wild to me and it's hard. It's truly heartbreaking because when I was into this stuff, it was weird. It was I was ashamed. It was, you had to go off the beaten path to find these metaphysical shops that maybe fold these things. Nowadays, sadly, it's considered cool to be a witch. It's considered cool to be in these witchy, occulty things. That's heartbreaking to me to see how socially acceptable and even applauded it is nowadays where Even just what, 10 years ago it, it was not like this.
- [24:43]
B
Yeah. And it seems like Wicca now is the thing. Everybody seems to be being drawn into Wicca. Can you talk about, you mentioned that Wicca sort of may be some kind of an offshoot of Golden Dawn. Can you talk about that relationship and maybe some similarities and some differences in beliefs and practices between Wicca and Golden Dawn? Well, if you've been listening to this show for a while, you know how much I love 7 weeks coffee. How I can't wait till my pound of 7 weeks espresso beans shows up at my door every single month. In fact, just this week I have a couple of house guests and I made seven weeks coffee for them this morning. And I, I would just, I'm just saying that somebody just requested a second cup because it is that good. So not only is it shade grown mocha, low acid, organically, farmed, it is the highest quality coffee that you can buy. But it's not just about that. It's not just about the taste, it's about their pro life ethic. Seven Weeks Coffee is owned by Christians and they're on a mission to fund the Pro Life Movement 1 cup of coffee at a time. It's baked into their name. Their name is seven Weeks because at seven weeks of gestation, the baby is the size of a coffee bean. And that's actually when you can first detect a heartbeat on the ultrasound. If you want to check them out Today, go to 7Weeks Coffee.com and you're going to save 15% forever when you subscribe and you'll get a free gift. But if you use the Code Elisa in addition to that, you're going to get an extra 10% off your first order. So that's 25% total savings on your first order plus that free gift. Go to 7weekscoffee.com today and use the Code ELISA at checkout.
- [26:20]
A
Yeah, so the system of magic is similar really. Ritual, ceremonial magic, the ceremony of it as well as like the initiation structure that was in the Golden Dawn. In the golden dawn it came from this discovery of the so called cipher manuscript. There's a lot of not so sure about if it was really truly discovered or if the founders kind of made it up, or if something was found and then they expanded upon it. But in the golden dawn, there was this. This it. There's a grade structure, so you learn things through lectures, through practice, and then you're initiated into the next grade, and then you learn more things in the next grade. And so much of it is ceremonial magic, which is basically a fancy word for practicing magic in a very ceremonial way. In the golden dawn, it was almost theatrical, for lack of better words. Everyone had a part to play there. I was in a black robe or different outfits, and you had different headdresses. And it was very considered high magic, where you're. You're doing these things and it's thought of as for the greater good and for the trying to unify your soul with the divine. Witchcraft is a different than that. There's. There's theurgy, which is kind of like high magic, where has more to do with union with the divine. And then from what I know, even though I personally would not have identified as a witch, there were people in the order with me who did identify as a witch. The Golden Dawn. This sounds weird, but they almost prided themselves on not being witchcraft because they claimed to draw their energy from a higher source. But I see a lot of similarities in the practice of magic and the ceremony of it. And it's really heartbreaking to see because I know firsthand how destructive those things are. And though they look beautiful and again, it. It puts the wand in your hand, you feel like you're doing something beautiful and powerful. And there is a supernatural quality to it where when I was practicing these things, and even though in the golden dawn, we didn't call them spells, we preferred rituals, something was happening and it seemed powerful, but I didn't expect this weight, this shadow over my life, this horrible weight that came with it. And tragically, in the Golden Dawn, I was continually told this is just. They basically called it an alchemical phase called negredo, meaning it's just a dark night of the soul. You just need to go deeper into the darkness to shine the light of knowledge. And so it just feels bad right now, but that's. That's supposed to happen. You just go further, go further, go further. And that breaks my heart. I see that in so many deceptive teachings where if it's not working, it's your fault. Just keep going. But you're running headlong towards your own destruction.
- [29:16]
B
So you mentioned that you felt like something was actually happening, like some kind of power, looking Back today. What do you think that was? Was it psychosomatic? Was it demonic? A mixture of the two. Something else.
- [29:26]
A
Yeah, great question. I think I. I truly believe that at a certain point, I was possessed for many reasons. Biblical reasons. I had no soundness of mind. I. I wanted to end my life. I. I had horrifying supernatural experiences that I won't even go into detail with, but the darkness was overwhelming. But I don't want to scare people, because it's not surprising that I felt possessed, because I believe that the entities that I was communicating with wanted to use my body and wanted to see through my eyes. And I thought that that was noble and good and would help me in the great work, which is a fancy word for the goal of. The goal of the Golden Dawn. Purifying your own soul, working your way up the. It's called the Kabbalistic tree of Life to attain union with God. Basically, it's a false salvation. Salvation your own way through works, of course, like every other false religion. But I. It wasn't surprising because I'd been asking for it through channeling and these things, but thinking it was noble. And so there was some sort of power going on. And I was. I did see things. We did invocations in the temple of Egyptian deities, and I saw things, but everything had this weightiness to it and what I thought was going to be beautiful and powerful in a good way. I could almost sense this impending doom, like this shadow over my soul and this judgment almost, of, you know, what I'm doing is bad, and there's this weight on me, and I had no peace. And I praise God for that because he ultimately used it to lead me to salvation. That lack of peace that no matter how deep I got, no matter how high of things I was doing, how many accolades I'd attained, I had no peace. And the power that I thought I was gaining, what profit is it to gain the whole world but lose your soul?
- [31:18]
B
And when you converted, when you cried out to Jesus to save you, which, you know, I remember from our last conversation, was just this really desperate moment where you said, Jesus Christ. Christ saved me. And when you were converted, how did that. I guess, what is the question I'm trying to ask? Like, when you were saved, did that leave you? Or did you have to go to, like, this extra ministry to be delivered from things? Or how did that look for you?
- [31:44]
A
Yes, great question. I'm extremely passionate about this because I was truly so deep in this stuff. Like, when I talk about it now as a saved Woman in Christ. Praise God. It. It's hard to articulate. I truly believed that I was too far gone to be saved. That I dug my pit, I dug myself into a pit too deep to ever crawl out of, that even Jesus couldn't save me. I had no hope. All I knew was impending doom. The darkness that I was in, I don't have a vocabulary for. And yet I heard the gospel on the radio. My grandpa shared the truth with me. I had come to understand, even though I didn't full yet believe it, that Jesus truly was a real person who had was truly God is truly God, is truly man. God incarnate, the Son of God who lived the perfect life, sinless life that I didn't live at all. And even though he was tempted as we are, he didn't sin ever. And that Jesus Christ truly went to the cross where he bore sinners sin and God's wrath. The just punishment that was on me that I deserve for my sin in the place of sinners that he truly died, was buried, truly rose on the third day, and then was ascended, ascended to the right hand of God the Father as the one and only mediator between God and man. That whoever would turn from their sin, repent and believe in Jesus Christ alone, put their faith in him, not their works or anything else, can have eternal life. And while I couldn't have articulated it that way, I understood that Jesus truly lived and truly died for sinners. And so that I knew the facts. But I kept having very scary moments. I was very prideful. I didn't. If you took me out of the occult, I didn't know what would be left. My whole identity was this. And I thought I was too far gone to be saved. And so. So it really took this man, God is so faithful, to save me. But it took a lot, a lot, a lot of me still being prideful. Until one day I was being spiritually attacked. I had been taught all these techniques to protect myself using magic, and yet I had no power. I collapsed to my knees in complete and utter weakness. It felt like my soul was being sucked out of me into utter darkness. And I cried out, Jesus Christ saved me and I meant it. And in that moment I knew for a fact that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, no other the God of the Bible, who had saved me just like that. And that all the powers of darkness, that he was infinitely, that he was over and above all of them, which amazed me because again, I thought I was too far Gone to be delivered out of it. He saved me just like that. I had the peace that I'd been searching for my whole life, life. And I started reading the Bible. And I will say that in the beginning, if you had seen me, I, you know, I was still practicing astrology. I was, you know, not who I am today. But from that moment, God began sanctifying me. As I was reading his word, being convicted of sin. And the Lord was so faithful to reveal to me my sin and give me the strength to turn from it. But in that moment when Jesus saved me, I believe he saved me in that moment. That, that, that, that is the moment that I was saved. I had this awareness that the God that saved me is truly over. And above all the powers that I thought I was too far wrapped into to ever be delivered from. It's truly. The Bible says that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. And there's no higher knowledge, there's no higher thing to go to than the Gospel. The gospel is what, what saves what Jesus Christ did for sinners. The Bible says that, that he is the true Savior. And so it breaks my heart when I talk to people who were wrapped up in these things or they made oaths. I can relate to that. In the Golden Dawn, I made horrible oaths with a sword to my throat that still haunt me when I think about them. But I know the truth. Ephesians 1:21 says that Jesus is far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age, but also in the one to come. He is over and above it all. And so it breaks my heart when people come to me saying, you know, I've, I've made this oath, I've done this thing. How do I truly get clean from this? How do I truly break this curse? And I just tell them, if Jesus Christ, if you have put your faith in him, if you believe in the gospel, the gospel is sufficient. It is the power of God for salvation. There is no extra thing to add to the gospel that's just works. We cannot add to Jesus Christ's finished work on our behalf. And I'm so amazed that the, the cross is sufficient. What Jesus did on behalf of my sin, the Son of God dying for my sin, that is enough for me. And so, yeah, no, I didn't go anywhere. I didn't do anything. Even though I was tempted to, sadly, because so often we see that online. You need to go to this person. You're actually not clean. You need to do this. And to be frank as a worship someone who leads worship today, if that were true, if I had to, you know, continue getting maintenance and deliverance ministry and all these things, what a work filled, oppressive life that would be. Because man, every like if I just, you know, remember this thing that happened in me or remember, you know, these terrible memories I have, I need to go get clean again. No. Praise God that the gospel is enough, that Jesus Christ has made me new, my sins are forgiven. I'm a new creation. So all that, that's a very long answer to say the reality. Yay. The reality of what the Bible says is true. And I'm so thankful for the sufficiency of the gospel. All sufficient.
- [37:47]
B
Quick pause to tell you about our final sponsor today. And that is Good Ranchers, a home meat delivery service. You guys, my freezer is full of good ranchers. Better than organic chicken, wild caught seafood, heritage breed pork, grass fed beef. It is so good and it has solved so many problems for me. I don't have to plan ahead for meals. I can just grab something out of the freezer, thaw it out. Even if it's just something as simple as some chicken breasts or just some steaks that I'll make with some rice or potatoes, whatever I have on hand. And I love that it's convenient. But it's also owned by Christians who are also unapologetically pro life. And I love that Good Ranchers doesn't give your money to woke companies. And you guys, it's warming up out there. I don't know if you've noticed this, but the sun is coming out. My garden is coming back to life. It's almost grilling season. It kind of gets you in the mood. You want to get out there and grill some burgers which by the way, the Good Ranchers Wagyu burgers are amazing. That is like a staple in our home. So when you subscribe to Good Ranchers, you're going to get free meat for life with an add on that you can add to your order. Plus you're going to get 25 off your first order. And that's if you go to goodranchers.com and use my code ALISA. Try them today. Go to goodranchers.com use my code ALISA. American meat delivered. Yeah, because I can imagine. I really appreciate everything you just said there because I can imagine too somebody coming out of this and then if somebody is saying to them, oh, you now need to go be delivered from generational curses or you need to go do some sort of. It sounds like ritual to, you know, counteract the oaths you took. And you need to do something with your words. You're right. Not only is it works, but it also, I think, is really bondage for people. And also I think it appeals to the thing in us that drew us to the occult in the first place, which is the sense of control. Right. Because if you can go do this deliverance maintenance and you can have these skilled practitioners of whatever it is kind of help you along with these things, then it makes you feel like you're doing something that puts you in control. But with that first question I asked you, I'm gonna ask you another one because I know that somebody listening to us is probably saying, okay, maybe I agree in theory, but I came out of this world or, you know, I'm coming out of it, and I still feel oppressed sometimes. I still have bad dreams about some of the things that happen. I'll wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and.
- [40:09]
A
And.
- [40:09]
B
And I feel like there's maybe some demonic oppression going on. What would be your advice to that person who might be struggling with something like that?
- [40:18]
A
That's such. Again, these are all such good questions. I. There's a really big difference between demonic possession, being possessed, and then demonic oppression, which I would just say spiritual warfare. We're not promised as Christians that we won't go through spiritual warfare. Actually, we're. We're. We're told how to fight. We are told that we are equipped for this. This spiritual warfare. The Christian life is a battle. And I'm just so thankful that in Christ we have been equipped with what we need. We have the. The sword of the spirit that is the word of God. And the Bible talks about the full armor of God. And I'm just so. Honestly, I love the book of Ephesians so much. I love reading it because it talks about the authority of Christ. I know whose I am. And so, So I. Sister, I can relate to you in that sometimes the memories come up. Sometimes I do feel attacked in different ways from my past. But what an opportunity that is for me to run to the word of God, run to the Lord in prayer, depending on him in prayer, trusting in him. And something my husband always reminds me that I'm so thankful for is God's sovereignty. There's such rest in the sovereignty of God that He is truly over and above it all. Anything that happens to me has to pass through his hand. As it's been said and so I run to the Lord and I get to trust. I love Romans 8:28, that God works all things together for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose. All things, even those things. And so I, I'm just. I'm honestly thankful. And maybe in the moment it's hard and I'm not super thankful, but when those times come up that are hard, I'm thankful for the opportunity to run to the Lord, to depend on him, to search the Scriptures. Okay, I'm feeling attacked in this way. Where in the Bible does it talk about this? How can I meditate on this and to be further equipped to stand firm in the lord? In Ephesians 6, we are told to put on the full armor of God and to stand firm so that we don't fall to the schemes of the devil and to resist the devil, and he will flee from us. And all these ways that we're told how to fight, none of them include going to a deliverance minister. None of them include, you know, do X, Y, Z, and then do this thing, and then you'll finally be clean or you'll finally break that curse. But, yeah, so you didn't ask this, but honestly, a big part of my heart in writing this book is that I. Yeah, it breaks my heart seeing people coming out of these things, you know, ex witches, ex astrologers, ex fill in the blank. And then it comes off as, you know, I have this secret real way to break the curses. I have the secret knowledge to tell you how to really be free of these things, how to really protect yourself against the witches and the Satanists. That genuinely breaks my heart because our eyes are taken off the Bible, they're taken off Christ and ultimately back to the secret knowledge. And so my heart was really to point to the authority of Scripture, which, you know, sounds like a big word or whatever, but praise the Lord that God's Word is infallible and authoritative, unlike our feelings, unlike our experiences. And even though I share my testimony and I share it online, I'm sharing it with you. My authority is not what I've been through. It's who God has claimed and proclaimed himself to be in the Word of God. And I'm just so thankful for the Word of God because it was truly the reading of His Word that renewed my mind and that he used to. To make me the person that I am today. I could not be have a sound mind be talking to you at all, apart from his work in me.
- [43:49]
B
Well, praise God and I love that you bring up up that authority because that is just the key, right? It's biblical authority. To place yourself under and not over the word of God is, is truly what I think makes the difference between cults and, you know, in genuine faith is like when you're like. And you, you meet people who might even believe a lot of the right things and maybe even all of the right things with their intellect, they might believe that it, that it's true, like you mentioned that, that you went through a phase like that as well. But it's bringing yourself under the authority. It's that submission piece that I think is so difficult for so many people. Even, you know, we see in the secular culture, a lot of people who you never would have thought would have been drawn toward Christianity are drawn toward it. But in so many cases, you know, like Richard Dawkins calling himself a cultural Christian because ultimately it's that submission piece. People don't wanna bow their knee. I don't wanna bow my knee. I mean, I have to ask the Lord for help with that a lot. I don't wanna submit to what the Lord wants for me today rather than what my fallen flesh wants for me today. And that's kind of a daily battle of sanctification that you're, you're talking about that the Holy Spirit empowers us to do through the reading of God's Word. And so with that authority piece, I'm curious, we talked a little bit about how there are different versions of Jesus in these occultic practices. What was the view of the Bible maybe in the occult in general, but specifically in Golden Dawn.
- [45:15]
A
Yes. Well, one, I just a. Amen, sister to all of that. It was submission and humility were so hard for me to get past. But really embracing submission to God and his Word and humility. Yeah. Is amazing. So the Bible. One thing to keep in mind is that Satan twists scripture. I think of Luke 4, Satan tempting Jesus. He's. He twisted scripture. And I was so confused because when I was in the new age in the occult, the Bible was used at pretty much everywhere I went. Even in the. I mean, you would be surprised. Aleister Crowley in his vile book Magic and Theory and Practice talks about the Bible. The golden dawn says it has basically like good interpretation of the Bible or something. Like basically the true interpretation of the Bible. And even you can take this out if you want. But even sex magic books quote Bible verses to justify their practices. I, I am shocked. And anyone would be shocked to see where the Bible is quoted to justify practices. So that was throughout the that whole world. But in the golden dawn specifically I believed I was worshiping Yahweh. But we didn't say Yahweh, we said Yodhe VAV heh. I believed I was worshiping the Hebrew God because we use the Bible. I had to learn the Hebrew Alphabet in order to practice something called gematria, which is like a coded system of understanding the Bible, quote unquote, the true meaning of the Bible, not the Christian, you know, the church. No, but we have the real meaning. And so it was. The Bible was used a lot that and in ritual. This is so hard to talk about because it's so awful. But in great advancement or initiation rituals, again black robes, the like what you imagine in movies, the dark stuff. The Bible was quoted. A psalm was quoted. John 1:5. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome. It was quoted actually a central piece of the initiation. The temple had different parts like a menorah and different things to that were quote unquote biblical and even rituals, banishing rituals. You, I mean, ugh, it's so terrible to say but we use the names of God so God's covenant name as well as different names of God, Biblical, Hebrew names of God to practice magic to. Yeah it to do rituals as well as quoting parts of the Lord's Prayer as a ritual. And so all that to say I thought I believe that I was being handed down from the ancient mystery schools the true interpretation of the Bible and that I was actually getting closer to not just any God, but the God of the Bible through these practices. And that shocks people. And. But a lot of the people who are in this who find my videos, their pushback is no, this isn't Satanic because this is one of the most Christian things because it's using the Bible. And so I think that's something important to know because a lot of the time we think if the Bible is used then then it's Christian, then it's biblical. I certainly did. I was deceived into thinking, you know, their symbol is a, has a cross and we're using the Bible and I'm, I'm learning that about the Bible. I'm learning these names of God I didn't know before. I, I really thought I was learning more than I'd ever known about God. But everything was twisted until the names of God weren't the names of God. They were used as magical formulas. Formulas that had to do with unifying duality, which is the core of the occult formulas Magic words to make your will be done, basically. So I think that's just a good reminder that one thing that God used to save me is I was so confused. They're using the Bible. How can this be unbiblical? But I read in the Bible that you can tell a tree by its fruit. And although I didn't really understand what that meant, I was convicted or my conscience was screaming out that the fruit of me and the fruit of the highest ups in this order is bad fruit. Like we are, we are depraved people. And so how can, how can the tree be good? And so that really stuck to me. So just remembering the you can tell a tree by its fruit, you will know them by their fruits. And so even though someone's using the Bible, we need to know, we need to be biblically literate. We need to know what that verse is in context. Because every verse that was used was ripping the verse out of the Bible, taking it completely out of its context, flipping it, it's on it, on its head, and having it mean something completely different to justify sin.
- [50:11]
B
So you mentioned, you keep mentioning like the secret knowledge, which of course goes back to one of the earliest heresies in the church, which is Gnostic. Of course there were different sects of Gnosticism, but ultimately it was this idea that it's knowledge that will save you. That's why there were Gnostic gospels with secret sayings of Jesus, which of course were not really sayings of Jesus. But, you know, it was like this idea of secret knowledge. And so that leads me to wonder, what is the view of maybe like salvation in general, but particularly the afterlife. Like, what's the end goal as far as when you, when you join one of these orders, what do you think happens when you die?
- [50:49]
A
Yeah, great question. I'll answer that first because I was really shocked. I just remember I was in, we had this something called conclave where we met at the temple and we did magical workings and lectures for hours and hours and hours for three days. And it was very intense. In this one time, we're laying on the floor in the, in the temple and it's this big, you know, magical thing. It's so powerful. And we're doing this, it's called astral work, which we've been hearing a lot about. Astral projection, occult practice. Not Christian. No, no, but we were doing this astral work called building an astral temple. And to make a long story short, at the end, I find out the reason why we're building this temple. This place, basically this dream place for you is because in the last moments of brain activity, you can learn how to project there and go there and live forever. And I remember thinking, what? Like that, where's the hope there? Where is the. That's it, that's. That's my hope is that I can create this place that in the last moments of my brain activity I can go. It just felt so vapid. And so that shocked me as that was my ultimate hope, was being able to project my consciousness, conscience, my consciousness somewhere. Yeah, but the, the salvation was, which is, you know, it hearkens Back to Genesis 3, the knowledge of good and evil. Ultimately it had to do with the Kabbalistic tree of life, which isn't the biblical tree of life. It's basically a symbol that. That's a whole other long story. But it has to do with the balancing of energy. And ultimately it comes down to unifying duality. So Unifying, balancing good and evil. The idea is that God is one and. But not in the biblical sense. And that duality, darkness and light is just. They're two different sides of God. And so if you are to embrace both and learn to harness and balance both these energies, this duality into unity, then you attain union with God. And it's this huge long process that involves all these different works, works, works to get there, to purify your own soul by unifying duality, balancing duality to attain union with God, the one. But on a basic level, that meant a lot of rituals every day, a lot of meditation every day, whether it was Christmas, whether I was at a music festival, camping, whatever. I was doing my rituals every day. There was a lot of work involved in purifying your own soul with the promise that you know things are going to get better and you can alchemize your own soul until you reach union with God. Which reminds me of Gnosticism, in a sense, reaching this.
- [53:40]
B
It also sounds like Star Wars. It sounds like Star wars too. Balancing the force. Bring balance to the force. Right.
- [53:47]
A
I just have only recently watched the first one, so I'm not entirely sure, but I believe you. But yes. And so that's something that breaks my heart because it is that same lie. I mean, we talk about a lot in Christianity. How, how? Because it's true that every other religion is a workspace religion, but Christ, Christ's finished work, it has been done. And we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to scripture alone, for the glory of God alone. But one thing that really Stood out to me when I was saved is that I was doing the great work and there was so much work to be done. And then when I came to Christ, there I found true peace, true rest, and true freedom.
- [54:28]
B
Wow. You know, sorry, back to the Star wars thing for a second. I watched this, or I. Sorry. I read an interview with George Lucas with. I think it was either Newsweek or Time magazine, and they asked him if the Force was actually, like, meant to be religious. And he actually said that it was. And what he tried to do. Yeah, it's fascinating. What he said he tried to do was weave in elements of all world religions so that when Christians watched it, they would see Christianity. When Hindus watched it, they would see Hinduism. When Buddhists watch it, they would see Buddhism. And so you do see. It's interesting because there is kind of a thread, I mean, not so much in Christianity, but in a lot of the Eastern religions. There's a lot, you know, the yin and the yang, the balancing of the light and the dark. So the chi and the, you know, the Brahmin, all of this is kind of like, very much related to what you're talking about. So I can see why even if that's what he was going for, there's still a thread of that that reflects in the occult as well, whether he intended to do that or not, which is kind of interesting. I think Star wars is fascinating from a worldview perspective, just to kind of, you know, to analyze and watch, especially with kids, I think. I think it's a good conversation starter for worldviews on that. But speaking of kids, I know there's a lot of Christian parents that are probably listening to us. And what's your advice for Christian parents? Because one of the things that I don't want to do is fall into this legalism or this. We're scared of everything. But at the same time, you want to take seriously the lures, the little baits that are left out for our kids. So what would be your advice for Christian parents?
- [55:57]
A
Yes. I'll preface by saying I don't have children of my own, so it's way easier said than done. I'm over a hundred percent sure of that. But right now, I think ideally, if I had kids, what I really would have loved is to have, like, you're saying that open conversation. So if I do see something, because ultimately children will see things out in the world, it's. It amazes me in a terrible way how much the occult is pushed, how much these ideas are pushed everywhere, to be able to have these conversations with an open Bible, not just because mom says so, but look what God has said. Actually see that? See that? How magic or sorcery is being glorified as. As though this is actually a really good thing to embrace. I. I understand how that could be alluring. This is. Do we see how it's alluring? This is what God says. This is why it's alluring to us. This is actually what God has to say about these things and why they're bad and. And, you know, look at these people who came up against Moses and all that. But what an opportunity, I think, in today's day and age to have those open conversations with your kids. In the beginning, I was like, no, shut their eyes. Never, ever watch. I'm. I'm never gonna let my kids watch any of that. But now I've met, you know, pastors and trusted friends who have had. Allowed their kids to watch things. Not, you know, of course, their boundaries. And there's wisdom in that as well.
- [57:17]
B
But each kid is different, too. Each kid is different too, you know, as far as, like, their maturity level, what they're drawn to, what they're enticed by. I mean, there's all those factors that parents, you know, think about.
- [57:28]
A
Yes, I can imagine. But helping your kid be biblically literate, to know the Bible in context so that when they see things that. That aren't in alignment with that, that aren't true, they recognize that because they know the truth. I think that that would have made a huge.
- [57:44]
B
That.
- [57:45]
A
And knowing the gospel from a young age would have made a huge difference for me. When I saw these things. Me, all I knew is I wasn't supposed to, or maybe that seems bad. I didn't know what God had truly said. And so it all just looked very glittery to me. And even, you know, I'll talk about Disney, even Disney at a young age with the sorcery and the magic in it. I didn't have a biblical worldview. I didn't have anyone saying, you know, actually, that that looks really pretty and fun, but it's not. And so when I did join the order, it just seemed like, wow, now I finally get some of the symbolism here. And. And, you know, throughout my life, things just made sense. And I've been being trained for this my whole life. This just makes sense. This isn't bad. This is just familiar. Like, it desensitized me for sure. So the importance of opening the word with your kids, having those conversations and being biblically literate, so good okay, so
- [58:38]
B
I want you to talk about your book. I know it doesn't come out till July, but I understand there is a pre order available which we will definitely link to that in the show notes. But tell us about the book. Book, Is it the story of you coming out of all this? Like what can somebody expect when they pick it up?
- [58:54]
A
Yes. Thank you so much. Well, it is, it shares my testimony, but it more so uses my testimony as a jumping board. It kind of follows my story as a trail through my life, but has pit stops along the way where I unpack an experience that I had and then I dive into the teachings that, that led me to have these beliefs, the teachers that I followed, what they actually say and then from there really holding those teachings up to the word of God and they just crumble before God's truth in the light of God's truth. That amazed me as I was kind of really reprocessing what I experienced, why I believe those things, who taught me that, where to get that from? And then opening the Bible and being like, wow, God's word speaks to all these things and they truly sound and look, look like the foolishness that they are in light of scripture. So I really enjoyed that. But my heart was to do so in a way that doesn't glorify or glamorize darkness at all or have that ooh, supernatural kind of feel to it, but is honest and exposes darkness while making clear that this was a very gradual progression for me to where by the time I was deep in it, it didn't seem bad at all because it had been been so gradual. And again my heart is really to point to how amazing Jesus is. My main prayers are that it exalts Christ, that it proclaims the gospel and that it equips believers and reaches the lost. And over and over again just pointing to God's word and how amazing he is.
- [60:24]
B
I love that and I love how God uses people's stories in, you know, to go through something so difficult and so painful, but yet so many people are going to read about the truth of God's, you know, being free once you trust in Christ, free from the bondage of sin and even being able to have an inside perspective to help Christians understand how to spot the signs and all of that. So very thankful for what the Lord has done in your life. And so this book is, it's available wherever books are sold. The pre order is that do you want them to go to a particular link for the pre order? Where can they get that?
- [61:00]
A
Yes, I will send you the link. It's on Amazon right now. It's called Overcoming the Darkness of the New Age and Occult with the Light of God's Truth. It's on Amazon pre order right now. I believe it's Harvest House pre order right now as well. And then whenever it comes out, it'll be wherever books are sold.
- [61:18]
B
Love it. Well, I want to thank my guest, Jack Marino Chen pick up her book Overcoming the Darkness of the New Age and a cult with the Light of God's Children truth coming out on Harvest House in July. But you can pre order it today. And guys, I will just tell you that when you pre order a book, it really, really helps the overall sales because especially with things like Amazon, it it cues Amazon to order more. So we want Amazon to order more. So definitely pre order her book today. And let's remember as we pursue Christ to keep a sharp mind, a soft heart and a thick skin. We'll see you next time. So pray for me and I will pray for you. No turning right or left will make
- [62:02]
A
it through the road that's narrow and the gate that small. Don't give up.
- [62:13]
B
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- [62:48]
A
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