← The Alisa Childers Podcast
The Alisa Childers Podcast
#368 Why God Allows Suffering (It’s Not Random) | Clay & Jean E. Jones
00:55:44
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- [00:00]
Clay Jones
My cancer is technically incurable. They don't have a known treatment for it. They wanted to get me into some clinical trials. And Gene and I were so disappointed that we couldn't get into this clinical trial. But now the can. The Lord is keeping the cancer at bay. In fact, the last time I talked to this oncologist who at Cedars Sinai, that used to be at Harvard, he says, do not get into a clinical trial. It would be harmful and they would think it was working. And so Jean and I are looking at this and going, wow, there it is again. What we thought was really bad, and it's really hard that I wasn't going to be able to get into a clinical trial that might. Might cure my cancer. The Lord kept me from doing that. And so that's the kind of thing to just go, thank you, Lord, for delivering me from clinical trials.
- [01:01]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Hey, friends. One of the oldest questions, and probably the most human question, is one that I think we all ask ourselves at one point or another, and that is some version of, why does God allow evil? And even more specifically, how does he use our trials and our sufferings for our good and for his glory? The Bible says that he turns all things for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. But sometimes when we are walking through a specific trial, it certainly does not feel that way. So we're gonna discuss all of that and more on today's episode, but I wanna let you know that it's brought to you by Brave Books, which is a Christian children's entertainment company. You can go to bravebooks.com childers and use the code CHILDERS for 20% off your order. So on today's show, I have a wonderful couple, Clay Jones and Jeannie Jones. Both of them have been on the podcast in the past separately. Clay to talk about his book why Does God Allow Evil? Which is the gold standard for this question. And then Jeannie to talk about her var Bible studies, which are all really, really awesome. But together they've written a book called How Does God Use Suffering for Our Good? Living with Hope While Making Sense of Life. And they do such a good job with this question. They got really personal, sharing their particular struggles, where Jeannie had miscarriages and struggling with infertility, how they've walked through sickness together, and currently Clay's battle with cancer. There is so much truth in this conversation today, so much depth, and I can't wait for you to hear it. So here is Clay and Jeanne. Jo. Clay and Jeanne. I've had you Both on separately, but I don't think I've had you on the show before together, but it's actually been a while, which I hate that because the two of you are two of my favorite thinkers. And Jeanne, of course, you've been on to talk about your Bible studies. And Clay, you've been on to talk about the problem of evil and suffering, which is. We're gonna talk about an adjacent topic today because I think when people talk about the philosophical question, why does a good God allow evil? Of course, Clay, you wrote the book on that, and your summary is actually the question should be why does God allow humans? Which I think is great, and we've got episodes on that in the archives. But I think the deeper question people are asking is not necessarily why does a good God allow evil, but why does God allow children to die of cancer or the great suffering that you see in the world? So you've got a new book that's tackling that topic. And before we get into it, though, I want to put a little flesh on this for our listeners and ask both of you to just share from your perspective, maybe your interactions with suffering and what led to writing this book. Jeanne, let's start with you.
- [03:44]
Jeannie Jones
Sure. Well, I think one of my biggest times of learning about how God uses suffering for good came when I was in my early 20s and I had a miscarriage in the second trimester. Now, we had already thought, oh, it's safe, the pregnancy is safe, and had told everybody about it because we'd passed the three month mark. And so it was a shock when I indeed miscarried and lost the baby. And then we had our church friends being real supportive, saying things like, well, if you guys had just had more faith, it wouldn't have happened. But one of the things I learned right away from that was while I was recovering, I was feeling rather numb. And I thought at first, oh, it's just emotional exhaustion. But then I started to think, you know, I'm getting mad at little teeny things like a house guest moved my get well cards. And I was furious. And I thought, you know, I wonder if the numbness I. I'm feeling is really that I'm maybe angry inside. So I decided to go for a walk and talk to God about it. And as I talked to him about it, I realized, whoa, you know what, God, I really am angry. And I poured out all the reasons why it seemed he shouldn't have let that happen. And as I went through all the things like, now I'm never going to be able to enjoy a pregnancy again. My church friends are saying, I don't have faith. And on and on, on. And then I came to one where I said, everybody else can have children, why can't I? And I knew immediately I had misspoken that that wasn't true. There were lots of women that couldn't have children. And in fact there were women in the Bible that never had children. And as, as I started talking to God about it and presenting each item to him, I realized I had felt entitled when in reality I wasn't entitled to anything from God. He had saved me and that was more than enough. And what I discovered over time is that previously bad things would happen and I would just go, oh, God works everything for good. But it was more like I was doing something like this. La la la. God works for good. La la la. And I was refusing to look at problems with any depth. And now I was seeing, no, we can look at problems with depth and take them to God and commune with God over it and trust him, knowing that he will work it for good, even if we can't see what that good is going to be. So that was a life changing experience for me.
- [06:35]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
You know, what you've just described there is a couple of different paradigms. It was interesting to me when you used the word entitled. I actually had the great honor of interviewing Joni Eareckson Tada on this podcast a couple of years ago, and she said almost the exact same thing, that human beings are not entitled to anything. And yet we think that we are. And I think when people have that kind of perspective, it does bring things into a better view for when we actually do suffer. And then of course, the opposite side of that is almost like this Pollyanna syndrome, where you're just like, oh, we're just gonna find the good and la la la. And I think some people call that toxic positivity where you're not really mining the depths of what can be happening, but just sort of plugging your ears and pre that everything is fine. So I think you've really articulated a lot there that people can relate with. Clay, what about you? I know you've been going through some stuff even here more recently. Why don't you share the your heart behind this book?
- [07:29]
Clay Jones
Well, you know, I have been going through a lot of stuff. I, as I told you earlier, I had open heart surgery four months ago. I mean, my heart rate is too fast, but we're working on it. I think that starting off with the very first major trial that I Had when I didn't really know what a trial was. I became a Christian at two days before I turned 13. Thankfully, I started reading the Bible not long after that with a bend. And I. I hardly knew how to read at all. I was a terrible student, a rebellious punk of a kid. And I started reading the Bible. And I was in for me, because I felt I was just such an insecure middle schooler that I really needed Jesus. Well, anyway, one day when I was 14, I thought I'd committed the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And to say that that rocked my world would be an understatement. I mean, I was depressed. And my parents took me to various counselors, and they'd say, no, you haven't. You don't understand. And I go, okay, good, thank you. And I'd walk away and I'd go, what? Are they wrong? What if I have? And now I'm going to go to hell forever. Well, this went on for some months, and. And I was deeply depressed. Finally, I decided, you know, what I need to do is. Is type out the verses that tell me that I'm saved. Like John 5:24. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He will not be judged, but is passed from death to life. I'd say, well, I hear his words and believe him, you know, the one who sent him. And. And John 3:16, of course, Romans 10, nine, and a whole. And what would happen, what I did is to get out of this is every time I started feeling like, oh, no, I'm going to go to hell, I would recite those verses in a loop until I felt better, until I no longer was afraid of, well, going to hell. And at the once. And so every time I'd start fearing that I was. That I was lost, that I'd committed the unpardonable sin, I'd cite those verses in a loop. And after a while, the problem went away. I no longer feared it at all. Well, what that did is two things came out of that. One of them was that I had an assurance of my salvation. And you know what? If you know you're saved, everything else is small. Somebody once said, the fear of God is the fear that removes all others. Well, in my case, certainly true, I became a much bolder person because I knew I was saved. But the second thing that I realized is, you know, I'm a much more disciplined person than I used to be. I can control My thoughts. And so out of that, well, at the time, I thought, very severe trial, I became assured of my salvation, and I learned that I could control my thoughts. And obviously, you know, I would never have become a professor if I didn't learn to control my thoughts. The scripture teaches, you know, that we should take every thought captive. And that's. So that's what I did, is I took every thought captive. So that was my first real trial. And it was a godsend. Although at the time, it was just horrifying.
- [11:01]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Yeah, I remember having kind of similar experiences. I think particularly devoted kids that love the Lord might struggle more with those types of things. You know, it's interesting to me. I've just been reading the whole story arc of Joseph in Genesis, and it's really just stunning when you just slowly take in the story, all the things that Joseph suffered from being, you know, left in the pit and sold off in slavery by his brothers, and then Potiphar's wife fleeing her and ending up in jail, and then working his way to being the second in command. And then ultimately, God saying all of this. It's. Well, I pulled it up here because it says, Joseph said, do not fear, for I am I in the place of God. As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. To bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today. And that course was in the context of the famine and the dreams that he interpreted, and that God used him to help Pharaoh learn, you know, to save up the food and all of that. But he had to suffer all of these horrible things for that to happen. And suffering is something, I think, that is just common to everybody. Everybody suffers. But I want to maybe ask you, Clay, what is the definition of suffering? And I'm asking that for a specific reason, because a lot of times people, I think, conflate evil and suffering because they're not the same thing. And suffering can look different for different people. So what's your thoughts on that? And, Jeanne, you know, pop in if you need to.
- [12:28]
Clay Jones
Well, suffering is just whatever, frankly. In short, it's whatever really annoys you or bothers you or hurts you. That's what suffering is. And of course, you know, I mean, but of course, it can go from, well, you know, I mean, something very small, like stubbing your toe to having, you know, finding out that you've got incurable cancer. But that's suffering. Anything that makes you hurt, of course, you know, when really bad things happen, then we talk about them. You know, I mean when people murder each other or torture each other, then we talk about that being examples of evil, which it is. But then again, so is driving drunk or talking on your cell phone, using your cell phone while you're driving, I should say. And, but because you can get into accidents and you can hurt people and that's examples of moral evil. And so suffering is about, is about natural evil, physical evil that we all endure here. And you're right, everybody's going to suffer. And as I say in my book, why does God allow evil? Only one thing is going to prevent you from watching every single person you know die from murder, accident or disease. And that will be your own death from murder, accident or disease. So have a nice day. But that's the world. That's the world we live in. But thankfully heaven comes.
- [13:57]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
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- [15:03]
Jeannie Jones
It means that most people don't talk about eternity even though scripture says that the the bad things we go through here on earth, the difficulties are going to be seem to be almost nothing when it's compared to the eternal glory that is to come. Lots of people have this really anemic idea of what eternity is like. They believe the cartoons and movies that have people floating on clouds, holding harps and, you know, flightless wings and little halos when that's not what scripture is expressing at all. And that sounds really boring to a lot of people. And so they want to hold on to as much as they can of earth. Earth. Whereas we're told that we will reign with Christ and that God is creating the new heavens and the new earth, and we're going to be there with him. And believe me, if he's creating a new earth, I imagine it'll be just as. As beautiful as this one is with. With hummingbirds, giraffes and zebras and on and on and on. It's. The Bible describes it as having fruit trees and a river, and it's going to be glorious, but it's not strumming a harp on a. On a cloud all day long and being bored silly.
- [16:23]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
You know, that's such a good point, because when I look into things like, for example, progressive Christianity, it's a very here and now based kind of ideology. It doesn't really have much of an eternal perspective. And that's one of the things I'm so grateful to my parents that they had such an eternal perspective always. Like anything that we went through, anything that we encountered, even how we spent our money, what we interacted with at school, school, like, what kind of activities we did, all of that was really filtered through this eternal perspective. But at the same time, I think evangelical culture, you know, there. There were some things that gave people funny ideas about things. In fact, one of the things I wrote about in my first book, which the two of you were so kind to review, this particular chapter on hell that I wrote, but I had that exact same picture, Jeanne of Heaven. You know, hell was awful, but heaven was almost like, just as bad in a different way. My perspective was based on this church play that would travel around and, like, heaven was almost like covered in tinfoil, and there was like, just a lot of white and silver. And I just thought, man, that just sounds awful. I don't wanna stand around in a white, boring room that looks like a hospital room with, like, silver curtains. I don't know what's appealing about that. And I think that's because maybe in some evangelical culture there was like this emphasis on heaven almost being this very sterile kind of sanitized thing, when in reality, I've had to really reorient my mind to what scripture actually says about it. And you're right. I appreciate you bringing that into such clear focus for us. Clay, you talk in the book about keeping a truth journal. What is that like? I love getting to the practical things because I think people want practical things to be able to do when they are going through times of suffering. What's a truth journal?
- [18:11]
Clay Jones
A truth journal is just. Well, it's full of truths and. But truths like how God has used suffering for my good and because we need to Document that. I think that's one of the most important things is to just to document when the Lord has brought you through a period of suffering, write it down. And then you. When he's brought you out of it, then write down how you see that God has used it for your good. And Jeanne and I also, you know, have scriptures that encourage us and it's part of our Truth Journal. And, you know, Jeannie should probably take say more about this because she does more on the Truth Journal. In fact, she just came out with a one that's available for free. And you want to just say a few things.
- [18:59]
Jeannie Jones
Oh, yeah, it's not free, but it is available. It was free.
- [19:04]
Clay Jones
Okay, well, there we go.
- [19:06]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Look at him. He's trying to give your book away. He's trying to give it away.
- [19:12]
Jeannie Jones
My Truth Journal is a little more elaborate than Clay's is. It started out both of us when we were young Christians. We both became Christians around high school, Ish, Clay a little younger. And I started out just writing out verses that I needed to know. Since I wasn't raised in church, there were a lot of things I didn't know and a lot of things I needed to trust and learn about God. So I'd write out scriptures and carry them on index cards in my back pocket. And then that evolved, especially when Clay had cancer the first time about 23 years ago, I made that much more full. I had the scriptures that pertain to his cancer, his health. And then I had truth statements that I would write out that were from the Bible, but they were personalized about what God was doing and how God would take even this cancer and work it out for good and. And such like that. So I'd write out these truth statements. In another page was what Clay was mentioning. Writing out the times in the past when God has done has worked good out of bad. And because remembering those things caused us to have hope for today. That's the message of Psalm 71, in fact, is that the psalmist first looked at and remembered all the things God had done in his past, starting with his youth and now he was an old man. And then he took hope from that. And I also write, write out prayers I usually write out. If I'm going through something difficult, I'll write out a prayer that's based on Psalm 71, and then I'll write out other prayers as well. So that's basically the Truth Journal. And on my website, we do have one that people can purchase if they'd like. We also have a free Bonus bundle.
- [21:10]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Okay. And is that jeannejones.com.net jeannejonest. Net okay. Jeannejones.net for that. That'd be great.
- [21:19]
Clay Jones
You know, let me add in one thing. Very few things encourage us more during difficult times which we've had with my having metastasized cancer, which the Lord is keeping it at bay presently, which is wonderful. But and stuff is to see God working for that he has delivered us in the past and I'll give a very recent example of him delivering us and that we thought it was really sad. But. So my cancer is technically incurable. They don't have a known treatment for it. Thankfully it doesn't respond to chemo. So I'm not in chemo. But they wanted to get me into some clinical trials and it turned out my ejection fraction on my heart technical and how hard it pumps was about 51 and it needed to be 55 to be in a clinical trial. And Gene and I were so disappointed that we couldn't get into this clinical trial. Well, we would have been in several. I would have been in several clinical trials pumping all kinds of poisons into my body, hoping to kill the cancer. I would have been in several. But now the Lord is keeping the cancer at bay. In fact, the last time I talked to this oncologist who at Cedars Sinai, that used to be at Harvard, he says, do not get into a clinical trial. It would be harmful and they would think it was working. And so Jean and I are looking at this and going, wow, there it is again. What we thought was really bad. And it's really hard that I wasn't going to be able to get into a clinical trial that might, might cure my cancer. The Lord kept me from doing that. And so that's the kind of thing to just go, thank you Lord for, for delivering me from clinical trials. Oh. Anyway,
- [23:13]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
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- [27:19]
Clay Jones
Yeah, that's correct. The Lord is. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the garden of Good and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they plunged us, their descendants, into a lifelong education of good and evil. And we're learning here that God is good and that there are a lot of good things, a lot of wonderful things. And we're also learning that there's a lot of evil in this world. And I've surely experienced my share. Like I say, I've had open heart surgery four months ago and now I have metastasized cancer, which the Lord is keeping at bay, praise God. But see, all these hard things we're going through is eternally valuable knowledge. Because we're going to take this into heaven and go, you know what? I've seen what sin does, I've seen what sin leads to and I don't want any part of it. Because I argue in my book, why does God allow evil? That we'll have free will in heaven, but not sin. And one of the major reasons that we won't sin is because we will realize the horror of what living in a sinful world is like. And that, like I say, this is eternally valuable knowledge. And so, you know, when people bring up like, well, why did God let you know, six year old Kaylee die of cancer? I, I always go, well, it's not just Kaylee, right? You don't think any child should die of cancer, do you? The answer 100 of the time is of course not. And then I'll say, okay, but it's not just cancer, right? You don't think they should die of other diseases. Right. And the answer is always, of course not. And I'll say, you don't think they should be maimed or killed in car accidents? And of course they'll say, oh, yeah, absolutely. God should not allow that. And, you know, I go on with this, and pretty soon I say, so to what age do you think children should be indestructible? And most people go, you know, I mean, they. They all of a sudden get it. The Lord would either have to make them indestructible or he would have to do millions of miracles every day to keep natural laws from working in regular ways. Because what we have in this world is natural laws working in regular ways. We don't like that. But God would have to do millions of miracles, and he's not interested in making his existence that obvious to the sinful world. But as I say, I think the key point is we're learning here that suffering is the result of sin, and we're going to take that knowledge to heaven and wow. That, like I say, is eternally valuable knowledge.
- [29:57]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Like Peter Kreeft calls Earth the womb of heaven. Have you. I'm sure you've read his works on suffering where he calls the earth the womb of heaven.
- [30:07]
Clay Jones
I. I'm not sure I have. I've read some of his works, but I'm not sure I've read his book on suffering. I'll have to look that up.
- [30:15]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
He's got some good, some good, some good thoughts on that, Jeanne, anything you want to add to that?
- [30:21]
Jeannie Jones
Sometimes suffering is prolonged because it's the people around the sufferer that are being challenged. And we get to see what kind of character others have. Do they reach out to help the child or person that's suffering, or do they abandon them and show a really selfish nature? It's one of the ways that character is displayed, too. So sometimes it's not just what's going on for the person that's suffering, it's the people around them as well.
- [30:56]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
That's good. So let's talk about suffering as evidence of your faith, because I think about this quite a bit. When you think of a story of like Corrie Ten Boom, who went to the concentration camps, her whole entire family dies. She suffers greatly and comes out of that glorifying God and having a lifelong ministry of leading people to Christ. But then you have other people that might go through a similar thing, and it causes them to curse God and walk away from any sort of label of religion. We see this in the deconstruction movement quite a bit, where people, maybe they have unanswered prayers and they decide that God doesn't care anyway, and they just walk away. And then others, even people that could grow up in the same house, go to the same church, can go through a very similar experience of suffering and have two radically different responses, with one running straight to Christ and one running away, which is, I think, is an interesting phenomenon to think about. How. How is suffering evidence of our faith?
- [31:57]
Clay Jones
Well, as. As you honor God through suffering, you. You are faithful. And it tells everybody, you know, I don't care what happens to me because I'm. Well, I do care what happens to me, but. But what ultimately happens to me is in the Lord's hands. I was sitting one of. I've witnessed to lots and lots and lots of oncologists, by the way, and they'll look at my chart and they'll say, went on college, actually. He was a resident at Cedar Sinai. He comes in and he says, how are you? And I said, I'm doing well, thank you. And he says, may I ask why you're doing well? Why you say that? And I said, well, I said, because I know Jesus really did die on the cross and he really was raised from the dead, and I'm going to have eternal life in him no matter what happens. And so that gave me the chance to honor God through the suffering. And he actually wasn't having any part of it. He was not interested, you could tell.
- [32:56]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
But he was sorry he asked, right?
- [32:58]
Clay Jones
Well, he says. He actually says. I said, and all these people gave their lives because they said they saw Jesus raised from the dead. And he says basically that that was just a shared delusion that people are easily suggestible was his idea that people are super suggestible. And I said to him, that won't work because people are super suggestible. That. Okay, yeah, I saw him too. Saw Jesus raised from the dead, too. When they're on the verge of being tortured to death, they will be suggested right out of that book.
- [33:35]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
That's right.
- [33:37]
Clay Jones
And. And he didn't have anything to say then. And I thought, okay, well, with the Lord's help, I won that one. But anyway, so. But we just be faithful in suffering. Go ahead, Jean.
- [33:51]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
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- [34:56]
Jeannie Jones
I was just going to say, but there were a number of doctors and nurses that were very interested and wanted to hear Clay explain the evidence for the resurrection. So it's not all of them were rejected. It. We had some that were like, oh, go on, go on.
- [35:12]
Clay Jones
Some are very interested. Well, you know, they'd start off and say, this says you're an apologist. What's an apologist?
- [35:19]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Yeah, right.
- [35:19]
Clay Jones
So that, of course, opens the door wide open for me to, you know, say, well, an apologist is someone who gives a logical, evidential and scientific reasons for the truth of Christianity. And I go on and talk about the disciples, the first disciples giving their lives because we know extra biblically that Peter was crucified. We know extra biblically that Paul was beheaded. We know extra biblically from Josephus that James, Jesus brother, was stoned to death by the Sanhedrin. Why did these people allow themselves to be killed if Christianity wasn't true, if they, and I should say if they really didn't see Jesus raised from the dead? That doesn't make any sense. And so I've said that in many doctors offices now. And as Gene said, some are like, tell me more. And others are like that one resident that was like, you know, whatever, but
- [36:18]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
whatever, but, you know, but even think about that. You know, you read the Scriptures and you read the Gospels, you read Acts, and you see how many times somebody gets sent to prison and then they preach the gospel in prison. Somebody's got to preach the gospel in prison. Right? And, you know, often we just think, I don't know if it's the affluent society that we live in, but we're like, oh, I don't want discomfort, I don't want to have to suffer. But so often God uses those experiences, like you to share the evidence of the resurrection with the hospital staff. You know, I was just actually with Christopher Yuan after his accident and I don't know if I updated my audience. He is actually walking again, which is just amazing. But Christopher had a terrible fall just the day after Charlie Kirk's memorial and they thought there was really touch and go for a couple weeks if maybe he was paralyzed. And in the hospital I went to go see him and he was just sharing about how he was able to lead two people to Christ in the hospital and sharing the Lord with so many others. In fact, his nurse walked in and you could tell he'd already been sharing the gospel with her. And God uses these times of suffering to refine us, but also to, to minister to others.
- [37:31]
Clay Jones
And we're a testimony to angels. And God is going to reveal to the universe the fact that we honored him through suffering. I was lying there 22 years ago, the first time I had this cancer. 22 years ago I was lying in the hospital bed after six days of being in the hospital and they pulled the catheter, just to be really blunt here, they pulled the catheter out and said, well, we're going to see now if you can pee, you may not be able to. If you can't, then you're going to be catheterized for a few months or maybe the rest of your life. And I'm just sitting there going, oh my gosh, that just sounds horrible. But while I was lying there and I didn't know what kind of cancer I had, I didn't know, they didn't know at that time the type of cancer I had, it had been misdiagnosed as being the kind that was going to kill me within two years. So I'm sitting there thinking, do I have a deadly cancer that's going to take me right away? Am I going to be able to, well, be very plenty of pee without being catheterized. Anyway, you know who came to mind is Johnny Eareckson. Tada. And I thought, you know, Johnny, as you know, dove into this too shallow water when she was 17 and broke her neck. And she's basically been a quadriplegic ever since. And. But she's honored God through that. And I told the Lord as I'm lying there, I said, lord, if Johnny can honor you through all the suffering she's gone through over decades of being a quadriplegic, whatever happens to me, I will honor you. Whatever you do, I will honor you through it. And at that moment I felt famous because I felt like you know what? I have just made a testimony to men and angels. And you go, well, yeah, there weren't any other. Gene was the only one in the room with me while I was thinking that. That I'm praying that. But this is a testimony to the angels. And at the judgment, our deeds are going to be revealed for what we did, and we're going to be rewarded for it. So, anyway, by the way, I was able to pee. Inquiring minds want to know, but that's
- [39:50]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
what we've all been waiting for, Clay, is just, we need to know the verdict of the pee.
- [39:55]
Clay Jones
And. But anyway. But I thought of Johnny. I mean, she's been catheterized her whole life, you know, I mean, and I thought, you know, she's been honoring God through it. And so anyway, that's the key, is just, we need to honor God through suffering.
- [40:11]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Yeah. And some people get an extra. Yeah. An extra measure of it because Joni, also, I wasn't aware of this until I interviewed her, but it's not just the fact that she's quadriplegic, but it's. She endures nearly constant nerve pain. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but on top of everything else. Yeah. And she is just such a testament to the glory of God that he has used her life for that. Clay, I want to come back to something that you mentioned earlier, because I think that we could give our audience a really practical. Maybe some practical advice. You mentioned that you learn to control your thoughts. And I know that's something that probably a lot of people perked up with their curiosity, like, how do I do that? What's your tips on that?
- [40:55]
Clay Jones
Well, I. That's where the. The truth journal that we were talking about comes in very handy on that, where I. We list scriptures that encourage us, along with whatever trial we're dealing with. And we've listed things that. Where God has delivered us. Like I mentioned, where I didn't enter any clinical trials, Praise God. And honestly, you just learn to force your mind to. This is what I'm going to think about. I'm going to think about this. And not that I'm not going to allow myself to start thinking about what could happen, because that never ends. I mean, you can just do that forever and ever and ever and ever. As Mark Twain put it, he says, I've suffered many troubles in my life, most of which never happened. And. And I think that's very easy for us to. To allow our brains to just go, what is about this? Or what of that? And, and. And that's not that. But being a Christian, I had to learn to force my mind to think about what I should think. And when I get depressed, well, the only way out of the depression was to force my mind to think about what I needed to think. And I think a lot of people listening to this, watching this, are going to go, yeah, I get it now, because you go, I don't want to suffer. But you know what? Suffering is what's going to grow you up, make you a mature Christian.
- [42:20]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Yeah, it's really true, Jeanne.
- [42:23]
Jeannie Jones
And I can add to that when I ended up having five miscarriages all together, at which point my gynecologist said, it's not possible for you to carry a healthy pregnancy. And as I dealt with the grief of knowing that, okay, that dream is gone, I prayed to God again. And I said, you know, I'm white. Aren't you giving me the desire of my heart? It's totally fine that you're not, but I'm just wondering why Psalm 37 says, you give us the desires of our hearts and you're not. And I felt a question immediately, a question of, well, what's the greatest desire of your heart? And I thought immediately, well, following you with all my heart, of course. And then I understood, ah, okay, we can't have every desire at the same time. Sometimes one desire has to be pushed away because something greater and better is necessary. And for me, that. That was it. And so I decided to pray a prayer. And this helped me with controlling my thoughts over. Over the years because it was hard every time somebody announced a pregnancy or invited me to a baby shower or whatever. And what I prayed is I was always a very visual person, so I figured I could pray pictures as well. And so I pictured the cross on. At the bottom of a hill. And it was dark, but the cross was shining. And I took all of the pain and the grief and everything I was feeling, the dreams that. That were gone, and the questions, why? And I pictured putting them into a box, wrapping it in pale green wrapping paper and tying it with gold ribbon, and then laying that at the foot of the. The cross and saying, this is my sacrifice of praise. I don't know why you're doing this. And if when I get to heaven, you want to tell me, that's great, and if you don't want to tell me, that's fine too, but this is my gift to you. And so every time thereafter, whenever I started to hurt, I would just picture that image again of the present at the bottom of the cross and say, God, again, this is my gift to you. I'm giving it to you as a sacrifice of praise, just like Hebrews 13 talks about. And that was very, very good in getting, getting rid of entitlement and keeping my focus on what was important.
- [44:53]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Yeah, that is really good because I do think, especially, I know I mentioned the affluent culture we live in, I think it just makes us super comfortable and then we feel like anything that makes me a little bit uncomfortable is unjustified. And then we're, you know, shaking our fist at God. But in reality it's, I mean, the fact that we are saved, as you mentioned in the beginning, Clay, is just, just a tremendous thing to think about. You know, 1st Peter 4:12 says, Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange is happening to you. And then it goes on. But rejoice insofar as you share in Christ's suffering, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. Can you expound on that verse a bit like, what does it actually mean to participate in the sufferings of Christ? What were Christ's sufferings and how do we participate in that?
- [45:46]
Clay Jones
Well, we. Jesus was born into a very sinful world and he was persecuted, as you know, once he entered public ministry, he was persecuted non stop. And we, his servants, we need to be willing to preach the gospel. We need to be willing to share it, even if it results in our harm. I think a lot of people, sadly, a lot of people call themselves Christians. I'm not saying they are not, but I'm just saying they call themselves Christians. I think a lot of them go, they will witness only to the point where they go, you know what, this person could get mad at me, me or I could get into some trouble if I keep sharing, so I'll stop. And I think that's really a mistake. You know, I, we're pulling back from, from really witnessing, you know, and I've done it in, over the many years I've been a Christian now, I've done that sometimes and, and I regret it deeply and I repent, Lord, but I, you know, we need to just be proclaiming the message and, and, and also we are once again learning here what it's like to live in a sinful, corrupt world, a fallen world. And that's again eternally valuable knowledge.
- [47:03]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Jeanne, anything you want to add to that?
- [47:06]
Jeannie Jones
Yes, one of the things that we ended up doing, one of the good things that happened from our not being able to have children is we were able to take in foster kids that couldn't be placed in normal foster care homes. They couldn't be placed in homes that had other children in them because their behavior was really bad. And we took in three preteen teen girls at one time. One day, when things got really, really crazy, Clay went for a walk up in the hills where they were building some new houses, and he started to pray. He should probably be the one to tell this part, but I'll you show. I'll share my reaction to it. He started to pray, lord, what happens if these girls never come to know you, if they never become full true Christians? And he sensed the Lord saying to him, then you will know the fellowship of my suffering. And when he got home and told me that, it just was like a light bulb went on in my head. It was like, yes, that's it. Part of what we're doing here on earth when we suffer is we're becoming more like Christ and we're seeing how our actions affect him and we're sharing in the fellowship of sufferings. When we give everything we have to children or to others and they still reject us or reject God, then we're knowing the fellowship of his suffering in another way.
- [48:34]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
Wow. I'd love for both of you to give some advice. I know that there are probably people watching that are going through very particular trials. Trials. I mean, there's probably people with strained marriages or financial troubles or sick loved ones, you know, whatever it might be. I'd love for each of you to take a moment and just give advice to those who are suffering. And what would you say to them?
- [49:03]
Clay Jones
I guess I'll start one. When somebody has just suffered, they just lost a child, they just found out they have cancer, they just, whatever, lost a loved one, whatever. The first response to them is to weep with those who weep, I would not try to explain to them, say, well, here's how God uses suffering for your good. I wouldn't do that. The first response is just to be there for them, to cry with them. Then as time goes on, they're usually going to begin to go, okay, now why did God do this? Then I will explain God's larger plan in the universe and what he's doing and how he will use this for their good. Because we really do, Jeanne, and I really do believe that God works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. We not only believe it, we've seen it in our Life lives again and again and again.
- [50:03]
Jeannie Jones
Vinnie I think one of the most important things during times of suffering for me has been memorizing verses about eternity. For instance, one of my favorites is so we do not lose heart. For this light, momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison that has been so important. And it goes on, it says, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen. For the things that seen are temporal, but the things that are unseen are eternal. And when I'm going through a time of suffering, I've got to remember, in comparison to eternity, this is going to seem light and momentary. And it is preparing for me an eternal glory when I go through it faithfully and honoring God. That's a huge one for me.
- [50:55]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
That's really good. And I think about people that I know that have suffered a lot. Like when people ask me about this question of the problem of evil or suffering, one of the first things I always ask the people to think about is think about the people that you know that have suffered greatly and have remained faithful to Christ through it. Aren't they the most compassionate people you know? Aren't they the most mature Christians you know? Isn't there a depth about them that's different than other people? And I think, like, just reorienting our mind to see the picture of what you actually. The fruit that actually comes into somebody's life when they suffer faithfully, when they die well, when they are sick in a way that glorifies God, whatever it might be. I think we all can just kind of see that instinctively. And as we close out here, I want to bring out this verse, Ephesians 1:18, which says, Having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you. What are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints? And again, this all has to do with eternal perspective, because it's so easy to just have this earthly, worldly perspective, the little trinkets and baubles that we all want to collect here. But there's a different treasure that we're storing up in heaven. There's an eternal perspective. And I would just love for each of you to take some final words here and talk about that glorious inheritance. What are we talking about with that clay? We'll start with you.
- [52:22]
Clay Jones
All right. We're inheriting the kingdom. Not just any kingdom, but the kingdom. And when he comes, there won't be any other kingdom. He talks about true riches and he tells us, talks about reigning over cities. But then he says in the meantime that we need to be faithful over things here. The things here that frankly seem so big to us. Then he tells us is that the things that seem so big to us are small. And my brothers and sisters in Christ, if we think these small things big, what are we going to do when we see really big things? Well, really big things come and we're going to reign over them. The first thing we're told about humankind is Genesis 1:26, and it says, and the Lord said, let's make man in our image and in our likeness, and let them rule. The last thing we're told about humankind, the last verse of the Bible actually before the Revelation 22:5, before the Epilogue, which is the epilogue in Revelation is, don't edit these things or take away from them. I'm coming quickly. But the last verse before the epilogue is, and they will reign forever and ever. So our, our job in the kingdom is to be reigning over it forever and ever and ever. We're going to be in charge. He's putting us in charge. And that's going to be good, to say the least. And by the way, heaven is most often compared to a banquet than anything else in scripture. And we're not going to be singing non stop. That's just not what the scripture teaches, Jeannie.
- [54:05]
Jeannie Jones
In addition, we're going to have resurrected bodies. The resurrection is coming and we're going to have perfected immortal bodies that won't have the pains and ills and propensity to suffer that we have right now. I look forward to that so much. One of the best things about it is that body will not have lust after the things of the earth like the current bodies that we have. All that will be gone. So in addition to a beautiful, wonderful surrounding and wonderful things to do, we're going to have have perfected, glorious bodies that will live forever.
- [54:46]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
I love it. I love that perspective. Oh, go ahead, say it again.
- [54:51]
Jeannie Jones
I said and can eat.
- [54:52]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
And can eat. I know, that's so great. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, I want to thank my guests, Clay and Jeanne Jones. Pick up their book How Does God Use Suffering for Our Good? And really pick up all of their books, Jeannie's Bible studies, Clay's books, it's all just such valuable material and I totally recommend them to you. And so let's remember, as we pursue Christ, to keep a sharp mind, a soft heart, and a thick skin. We'll see you next time. So pray for me and I will pray for you. No turning right or left. We'll make it through
- [55:30]
Clay Jones
the road that's
- [55:31]
Podcast Host (possibly Alisa Childers)
narrow and the gate that small. Don't give up. It's gonna be worth it.