← The Alisa Childers Podcast
The Alisa Childers Podcast
#388 AI 101: What Every Christian Should Know About Artificial Intelligence | Ryan Pauly
01:10:29
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hey friends, Today's episode is all about AI and how Christians can steward this tool. Well, now I realize that there are a lot of Christians who have said I'm not going to use AI, I'm not going to engage with it, and I honestly respect that. But the problem is that AI is already so deeply embedded into almost everything we do when we come to a computer screen or an iPad or an iph. And so even if we put in a simple Google search, AI is being utilized to produce our results. So I think what a better question is is how can Christians steward this? Well, we know from the creation mandate that goes all the way back to Genesis that we're to steward creation. Well, today's episode is all about how to take the principles from the Bible and apply them to how Christians interact with AI. And I have a great guest to discuss this with, Ryan Pauly, who has just contributed to a book called Stewarding Faithfully Using Creation Resources, along with Deanna Huff, Brian Schulten and Eric Hernandez. They've taken biblical principles and applied it to every aspect of how Christians can engage with AI. So this is a fascinating conversation. I got so much out of it. I know that you will too. But before I take you to Ryan, I want to let you know about another resource on this topic that I just recorded with my friend Natasha Crane. We sat down with Eric Reed and Brandon Maddock from Dominion AI, which is a Christian based AI system, to talk specifically about some recent statistics that were released about the Christ use of AI. How many Christians actually trust AI? Is AI becoming a replacement for pastors? Is AI replacing God for some Christians? This was a very fascinating conversation. A lot of the statistics were actually quite surprising to me and I think you'll get a lot out of that episode. We just released it on our Unshaken Faith Podcast channel, so make sure you subscribe to that because we don't release episodes as frequently as we do on our personal podcast. But when we do, we really try to bring some really informative content in the form of book reviews or in this case discussing the worldview implications of AI. So I want to encourage you to go listen to that episode. It's on YouTube and it's on the Unshaken Faith Podcast on all the audio platforms. And with that I'll take you to this episode with Ryan Pauly. Ryan, so glad to have you on the show and to get into this topic because I just want to give you a little context. This has been something I've been thinking a lot about in Fact, just a couple episodes ago, I gave my current AI policy, and it's not nearly enough because I need to be thinking through this even more. And I think every Christian does. And that's kind of what you guys are talking about in your book. It's called Stewarding AI Faithfully Using Creation Resources. Let's start with what AI even is. I know, like, we always talk about AI, but people don't actually define it. Like, what's the difference between putting something into a Google search and then asking ChatGPT and is Google AI now? Like, is everybody using AI even though they don't realize it? What is it? And how is it manifesting online?
- [03:08]
B
Yeah, well, one of the leading AI researchers, and it's so great to be here, by the way. I'm so happy to have this conversation. Thank you. One of the leading AI researchers, Mustafa Soliman, talks about AI being like the new electricity that it really is, like powering everything. And even that's what Google is doing now, where it's you, you type something in, it's Google, and it gives you, here's the AI overview, where it is kind of synthesizing a lot of data. And I think maybe that's something that some people think about, is that it is kind of taking a lot of data, synthesizing it into an answer or a solution. Pulling from multiple sources, rather than maybe a previous Google search is more simplistic of here's a bunch of sources for you to look at, and it's not necessarily giving you conclusions. And so that's what you're getting with something like ChatGPT is here is an answer. Here is a solution that we have pulled from many different sources and from all over the Internet. And it can be helpful. And I think that's one thing that I've used it for is I'm doing my doctoral dissertation right now on Christian apathy. And so I ask you, like, who has talked about apathy from a Christian perspective? And it's like, here's all these theologians and scholars and all these books that they have written. And I go, great, now I know what books I need to go buy and read. And so it's great at kind of gathering information from all over the place and synthesizing it into a simple answer. And so that's where it's maybe a little bit different and more complex. Now, there's generally kind of two broad categories for AI. One would be kind of a narrow artificial intelligence, and then artificial general intelligence. And narrow is an AI that is designed to do a specific task very well. And so this would be like our Alexa or the AI that's powering Netflix, where you watch a movie and it suggests next movies that you should watch based on what you have watched. And so it is a very specific task that it's been designed and programmed to do. And then it learns to do that better based on your likes and your preferences. And it supplies things that are helpful and so self driving cars. And you know, we have these different examples. Artificial general intelligence is something more specific or where it is being able to do all that humans can do. And that is the question that is being asked is from a conscious perspective as well as just from a practical perspective, can we ever achieve artificial general intelligence where AI system can do everything that a human can do, or are we really good at designing things that can do a specific, specific task? Well, but it can't do something else that you're asking it to do? And that's where often we run into those roadblocks with AI where we say, hey, can you get this for me? It's like, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Or it just wasn't programmed to do that sort of thing. So maybe those are a few of the kind of big key differences of what we're seeing today.
- [05:41]
A
No, that's really helpful. And I wonder, do you think it will even be possible? Let's say that we get AI to a point where it can do everything a human can do. I think the question we need to also ask is, is that good? Is that helpful? Is that something that's actually going to be beneficial for society? What do you think about something like that?
- [05:58]
B
Well, yeah, that's a big question of what now are we asking it to do? And then how is that affecting us? And so I think there's ways in which AI is being used today that I do think have a negative effect. And we talk about that a little bit in our book where God is one perspective. God has created us to create. And so if we're using it to create for us, you know, maybe the common Christian example, and I was just talking to my pastor about this yesterday where he was just curious of what AI can do. And he plugged in a passage and then it said, would you like me to create an outline on this passage? And he's like, oh sure. And it says, would you like me to create printable sheets that you can give to your congregation to fill in for your note page? And it's like, it is like you could literally use it to create everything. And so it's like, if that's what our pastors are doing and not studying scripture and just using AI to create sermons, we clearly see a problem with that. God has created us with minds in order to create things. And so there are some things it's nice that it can do for us, but that doesn't mean it should be able to do everything for us. The deeper challenge, though, I think, is AI is becoming better at mimicking humans. I don't think it will actually be able to do everything that a human can do, namely because we are conscious human beings. And I don't think that AI will ever achieve consciousness. And that's what chapter one in our book is about, is that there is a deeper level. So John Lennox, in his book on AI 2084, he talks about this idea of beavers can create dams really well, and bees can create hives really well, but beavers and dams cannot learn to do the opposite. It doesn't matter how much time it has. A beaver will never create a hive and a bee will never create a dam. But humans watching both can do both. And then we can learn to do both. And then we can also innovate to be able to come up with new compounds and structures to make a stronger dam or whatever it may be, to take it even further than what we see and experience in nature. And so there's this human innovation that we have, but then there's also the thought and intentionality that goes into this from the very beginning of the mind that is behind it when we are discussing AI. So, part of my chapter, I interviewed a cloud engineer at hp, Sean Thunquist, and he talked about this idea that the AI is just simply not designed for understanding, that we can actually create understanding from observations. We can break down our problems, we can understand the problems, and then we can improvise to create something better. It doesn't matter how complex these large language models or AI systems are. They can appear to do this because they generate responses that are based on learned patterns from analyzing massive amounts of information, but they don't actually have that ability to. For deeper understanding. And so that's where I think no matter how far this technology becomes, there's still something that humans can do that I think AI will never do, as it is not a conscious thing.
- [08:58]
A
Yeah, it's scary to me. I went on YouTube the other day, and I don't know how this ended up. Well, it ended up in my algorithm because of AI, I'm sure, but it was a Video of a rap that was entirely lyrically just a book of the Bible. And so I clicked on it, and it was actually really good. And I didn't even realize how Paul's words in English actually fit really well poetically in a rap. And so part of me is going, well, what a great way to memorize scripture. That's kind of cool. But then the artist in me is going, ooh, there's something deeply wrong with this. And I don't know if I can put my finger on exactly what it is. Obviously, from an artistic perspective, this is a huge conversation happening in the art world and in the music world is AI is now pretty much capable of recreating human art, whether it be music or whether it be paintings or whatever it might be. And, of course, it has learned all that from real human artists. So then there's all these conversations about copywriting and is that stealing from real. You know, it's very complex conversation that's going on in the artistic world. But I want to go back to something that you kind of hinted at, and this is where you guys begin in the book, which I think is so important, is distinguishing between the mind and the brain, because I think I'm just gonna guess. I think the average Joe Christian out there is probably not walking around every day thinking, ooh, what's the difference between the mind and the brain? And I've thought about this a lot because I've worked with J. Werner Wallace, who will always correct you if you say my brain, and he says, you mean your mind. And why don't you share a little bit about that? Why is that important to be thinking about that distinction?
- [10:37]
B
Yeah. Well, we have a member on our team as well at Maven, that is a philosopher of the mind. He's Eric Hernandez, who actually co authored this chapter. So Eric and I wrote this chapter together, and we often have that joke with him. It's like we always ask, hey, can I pick your brain about something? And he always bothers him. And I know Greg Kokel is the same way as like, no, you can. You can. You can pick my mind, but it kind of hurt if you pick my brain. But I think that's the reality, is that we. So that chapter is called Stewarding how we Think and Speak about AI. And there's a reality of how we speak about things shapes our understanding of it. It's amazing how powerful language can be. Alan Jacobs is a professor out of Baylor University who wrote a book, how to Think. And in that book on just how to think, he talked about the power of analogies where we start to say the brain is like a computer or the mind is like a computer. And then all of a sudden the analogy goes away and the brain is the computer. And then we start thinking of it that way. That's why I'm very careful not to call Alexa a she. And it's an it. It's not a she. It's not a human being. This is an it. This is a thing that is helping us. But when we start to use this personalized language for AI or start treating like ourselves and how we think is like a computer, sometimes that analogy becomes reality, and we have to be careful of that. Now, there's just a few specific things that we talk about in that chapter of just fundamental differences. And that is that humans have something like a mind that cannot be reduced down to the brain. And there's different ways to have this sort of conversation that can get very philosophical. But the question is, are your mental states, are your thoughts identical to the brain? And in order to ask this question, we can do in philosophy what's called the law of identity. The law of identity is that if thing A shares the same attributes and properties and qualities as thing B, then you can say A is B and so is Ryan Pauly the same person as Emily's husband. Well, if the same qualities of Ryan Pauley are true of Emily's husband, then you can say, I am Emily's husband and I am so. And so we can have this identity relationship. And if there's a dis. Identity, if there's a disunity between these, then we have to say that they're fundamentally not the same. And so in the chapter, we talk about three things that are fundamentally different about the mind than your brain. So, number one, our beliefs and mental states can actually be true or false. Right. I can have a belief God exists. That's true or false. I'm six foot five. That's true or false. I have these beliefs about reality that actually can be true or false. But no region of your brain can be true or false. False. So the atom's firing. If there is this connection, and there absolutely is a causal connection between our brain and our mind and how our mind interacts with the brain, for sure. But you cannot say the atom, the synapse that lit up and fired in my brain when I had that thought, well, is that brain chemistry true or false? Well, that doesn't make any sense. Right. It doesn't make sense to ask that. So our thoughts can be True or false. But brain states cannot be true or false. You can also say that our brain is measurable, that your brain has weight. It can weigh three pounds or however much our brains weigh. But our thoughts don't have weight. Our thoughts are not measurable. Brains can be measured in distance, but our thoughts clearly are not measured in distance. And so there's a fundamental difference between our brain states and our mental states. I think you can also say that our brain states are accessible externally, that you can hook someone up to an FMRI machine and you can look at their brain states and you can see that from the external world. But our thoughts are not accessed by a third person. Our thoughts are first person private. You can only know thoughts if you ask someone, what are you thinking? And I debated an atheist a few years back on YouTube who said, well, no, all we have to do is map out the brain and then we will be able to tell you what someone is thinking by looking at an fmri. I said, but how do you map out the brain? Well, you first have to ask them. The best that we could do is you see something light up and you say, what were you thinking at that moment? The person tells you, and then you mark that down. Okay, what were you thinking at this moment? They tell you, then maybe you can kind of create some sort of mental map. And but it first has to happen from having that first person private understanding of what the person is thinking. And so these are just a few kind of things that we can look at to say there is something fundamentally different about the thoughts that we have that are distinct from brain states and are not or cannot be reduced down to brain states. Like what is often said is our thoughts are like software and the brain is like the hardware. But that is just a fundamentally reductionist view to say then we can reduce it to physical things, but there's something about our thoughts that are not physical and cannot be reduced down to brain states.
- [15:24]
A
So is this a fancy way of saying that ChatGPT doesn't have a soul?
- [15:29]
B
Yes, ChatGPT computers, they don't have souls, right? And all they can do is mimic. They can copy what we do. And that's the same thing that you can get into different things. And I'm having this conversation right now with some atheists online on my channel of that. We can reason that we have reasoning abilities. I don't think it makes sense to say that a computer or AI reasons it processes it takes a massive amount of information and always processes it based on programming. But it's always doing and processing based on what it was programmed to do. We actually have the ability to step outside of that causal connecting process and evaluate the different influences, evaluate the different desires, evaluate the different things, and then reason to a conclusion based on that. And so there's something fundamentally again, different about us having a soul that AI can mimic, but it actually can't reason like we do. It just simply processes and mimics human reasoning.
- [16:28]
A
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- [21:02]
B
Well, yeah, so there's a lot going on here. And I think the same thing happened to us yesterday. We were actually curious on what information on our family was out on the Internet. And so my wife asked some questions about me, and it could give me a lot of information about me as I'm a public figure. And then it said, she asked, who is Ryan's wife? And it said definitively, Ryan is married to Christy Pauley. And my wife was like, that's interesting. There's no sources. And so she just responded, no, Ryan's wife is Emily. And it went, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. Thank you for catching that. You're right. His wife is Emily Pauley. My mistake. And so, like, it was just so confident, but just making stuff up. And that's happened to me in the past where I was trying to find a page. So I had just this book on my table, and I'm like, okay, where is this quote? I know there's a quote in this book. What page is it on? And so I asked, what page is this quote on? And I said, oh, this quote comes from. And it's said a completely different book. And I said, no, I know the quote comes from this book. And it's like, oh, you're right, it does come from that book. And so those things happen quite frequently and should make us cautious, as you just mentioned, of what it is saying and is it actually true? Now, why are these sort of things happening? Well, you're asking, saying, ChatGPT, what do you think? ChatGPT is not thinking. It does not have opinions of its own. All it can do is synthesize massive amounts of information on the Internet based on the programming that it has. And if it's been programmed to simply synthesize information, it can Tell you what, generally different views hold, but it's not going to say, here's what I think, because it's not thinking. And so you're kind of asking it to do something it has not been programmed or even having the ability to do.
- [22:40]
A
Well. And just to your point, though, the reason I was doing that is because it was speaking as if it did. And that's what I was trying to get to the bottom of, you know what I'm saying?
- [22:49]
B
So, yeah, absolutely. Now where, now how do you answer this? Well, here's the difficulty is again kind of bringing up Mustafa Soliman, who again, as I mentioned, is a leading AI research. He founded some of the early AI companies that were bought out by Google and he was like the lead AI researcher at Google for a long time and has now left Google and done some other stuff. But he talks about how again, that these functions are all learned patterns. But because of the complexity of machine learning, even Mustafa Soliman says what AI essentially is, is a black box. He says that while research and understanding are growing, the outputs of these large language models are difficult to trace. And so you know, what is going in the input, what actually happens in the computations that are taking place is a black box. We don't know what's happening. And all of a sudden the output comes and it's like, well, how did it get that output? And we don't know, but we know it's completely determined by the inputs and it's determined by the processing that is in that large language model that we know that there's no thoughts, there's no understanding, there are no choices being made by ChatGPT in that sense. John Lennox says it this way, where he says that they don't crunch without a human in the loop at some level guiding the whole process. The human involvement is conscious, the machine is not. And so there's an aspect there where humans are completely set apart. But the difficulty in answering this question that you're asking is that even the leading AI researchers are saying because of machine learning and the ability for AI to constantly be learning and growing and developing, and those sort of based on all the inputs it receives, they essentially have become black boxes where we know what we put in, we see what we get out, and we have sometimes no idea why.
- [24:38]
A
Wow, that's chilling, actually. That's very interesting. Okay, let's back up a little bit because as I've said on this podcast many times, there's no topic, there's no issue that we as Christians are going to come up against that there isn't at least a biblical principle we can apply. We are not left without guidance from the Lord on everything. And so as technology develops, we have to think about these things from an ethical perspective. We have to think about them from a philosophical perspective, a theological perspective. But let's just back up, even from AI, and talk about technology in general. Because as technology has developed, even with something like the Internet and with Google, it has changed the way we interact with information. So talk about technology, because the chapter you wrote in the book kind of focuses on this question of how do we steward technology in general for human flourishing? How can we? You know, I always think about the scripture that my mom just pounded into my head as a kid. Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. So if we're gonna use technology, we need to use technology for the glory of God. So what does it first? But just what is technology? Is it like even the development of the wagon wheel? Is it, you know, discovering fire? Is that technically technology? And maybe start there. Many of you found this podcast after 2020 when our culture started to hyper focus on issues of race and justice and you were looking for resources about how to talk about these things from a biblical worldview. Well, our friends at the center for Biblical Unity is the gold standard for these conversations and they've just started a brand new program called Ambassadors for Biblical Justice. This is an alternative to progressive leaning social justice ideology and it's so cool. It is a nine month mentoring program where you can be trained to live out a scripture rooted vision for justice. You're going to read books, you'll get mentoring by the leading Christian voices in biblical justice and you'll get practical tools to make a real difference in your community and be able to have conversations about these things with your friends. And all of this is going to be grounded in a historic Christian worldview. So this ambassador program starts in August and the application deadline is July 31st. So you still got some time to go over to centerforbiblicalunity.com Ambassador, fill out the application, and if you mentioned that you heard about it on this podcast, the Alicia Childers Podcast, you're going to get 15% off of your tuition. Really want to encourage you to take advantage of this amazing resource. Go to centerforbiblicalunity.com Ambassador, fill out the application and mention that you heard about it on this podcast for a 15% discount.
- [27:22]
B
Yeah, well, so yeah, that's a great question. And yes, wagon wheels, shovels, hammers spoons, those are technology. And so technology can be defined in a lot of different ways, but it really is when humans use their God given gifts to create something that can apply to the world and kind of make life easier, shape how we use and interact with reality. There's many different types of technology, and the wagon wheel is one, cars are some. And then we have digital technology. And so there's many different types of technology. And I think this is where we do have to be careful when it comes to AI and digital technologies is often I ask students, so when I speak on this topic, I'll ask students, is technology neutral? And many say, yes, it's neutral because all we consider is how something is used, that our phone is going to sit there and you can either post good things on the Internet or you can post bad things. And so it's neutral and just depends on how we use it. But I think that's a very minimal view of looking at it because yes, while use matters, it is far greater than that. John Dyer wrote a book, from the Garden to the City, a great book, kind of looking at a theology of technology. And he argues in this book that whether whatever tools that we use, whether it's a book, a shovel, a phone, virtual reality, that regardless of whether we use them for good or evil, the act of using them forms us physically, spiritually, mentally and relationally. And so this is where I think, in a biblical perspective, if we are going to have wisdom, right? And that's where the book is arguing. AI is everywhere. You can't get away from it. It is powering everything. And so there's no, like, I'm just not going to use AI. That's kind of impossible at this point. Instead the question is, how do we do what God has created us to do in stewarding his world? Because we know that when things are not used well, it often leads to human destruction. But if we can use things well, then we can use them for human flourishing. And that's the goal, as you mentioned. And so the recognition of, think of like a shovel, a simple technology. Yes, there is a good and bad use of a shovel. You can use a shovel to dig some holes and plant some trees and flowers in your garden. You can also use a shovel to bonk someone over the head and kill them and then dig a hole and bury a dead body. And so there's a moral use that is good and bad on how you use the shovel. But also the act of using a shovel is shaping reality. You're literally changing dirt and moving dirt around by digging holes. It is also affecting you physically as it builds up your blood, as it puts calluses on blood pressure and your blood gets pumped and your heart gets going, it builds calluses on your hands, it works your muscles and makes you stronger. And so the mere fact of using a shovel is also forming you physically. There's a mental aspect, a spiritual aspect, on how it even shapes our view and understanding of God. What's different about AI and a lot of digital technologies is, as one researcher put it, there is no one with a PhD in persuasive computing trying to program a shovel to get you to dig more holes. But there are people behind your phones who are literally created or hired to try to figure out how to get you to pick up your phone more and to use your phone more. And so there's a reality of that. We also know that the mere existence of a phone shapes how we interact relationally. I mean, studies have been done that when you go out to dinner and your phone is sitting on the table, that sends a message, especially even if it's face down. But the mere existence of the phone is, it's a distraction and we know that they're there. Like, why is your phone out? Especially if it's face up and the screen lights up? Well, what do we do? We look over at it as if what's happening here in that IT notification I just got is more important than the face to face conversation that I'm having. And so we understand how the mere existence of this shapes and changes reality. If I can tell a quick story really quickly is we want to talk about even a more basic technology. I mentioned in my chapter, air conditioning and how air conditioning has changed how we view neighbors. Prior to air conditioning, people had to go outside if it was hot and your house is super hot, you had to open up the windows, you had to go outside, get some natural cooling of the natural breeze. And people talk about and argue that air conditioning has shaped how we even understand neighbors. Because now when it's hot, we don't have to go outside and we just stay in our nice, comfortable, cool houses and we don't have to have to talk to people. Well, I'm literally writing this portion of my chapter. I get done with and it's time for a break. So I take my boys and we go outside and we're playing and a neighbor comes out who I had not seen in a few months. And I was like, hey, how you been? I haven't seen you for a while. And he's like, yeah, it's just been so hot outside. We're just staying inside, soaking up the air conditioning. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, there's just like this instant connection, like. Yeah, that is shaping relationships, it's shaping community. The heater has done this before. Central heating. The family had to gather around the fireplace in the living room when the house is cold. Now we have heat pumped to all areas of the house, which is wonderful. It's beautiful. It's amazing. I love that my bedroom is warm at night. But it is now allowed for people to not have to gather around the fireplace, to have family time. And now they kind of sometimes can stay in their separate places. And so there's absolutely a shaping power to technology that we have to recognize. It's not neutral. It affects us physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, just by its mere existence. And therefore, we have to look at what you're asking for. These biblical principles of now. How do I use this?
- [32:38]
A
Well, boy, that point just really hits home when I think about our dishwasher. We have the world's worst dishwasher. It just keeps breaking. It's supposed to be all fancy with all these gadgets and everything, but it just. Every two or three months, it just stops working. Then we gotta have the repair guy come out. But here's the thing that I'm thinking about. As I hear you talk when it's working, I tend to be a little bit lazier in my parenting. I'll make the kids do the dishes here and there, but it's just so easy to do it. You just put em from the sink into the dishwasher and press the button. But when it's broken, I'm just not willing to do all of that myself. So then I make everybody have a, you're gonna dry, you're gonna wash, you're gonna do this. And that's actually better for them, and that's better parenting. But you're right, it's like the temptation to just take the easy way or not be together as much. I mean, that's. That's even as much as a dishwasher or laundry or little things like that that seem just like we take them for granted. Because everybody has a dishwasher pretty much. Well, not everybody. In fact, I've watched some homesteaders that are opting to purposefully not have a dishwasher, and I'm kind of thinking, I thought they were crazy, but after talking to you and thinking about this, I'm like, actually, maybe they're onto something. So you think about something like a dishwasher, even that being not entirely neutral, and air conditioner, but even more so AI because like you mentioned, there's actually active agendas happening behind the scenes to get you to do things, to get you to buy things, to get you to engage in certain activities. It fascinates me how I can do one Google search about something that has to do with my phase of life and then within seconds I'm inundated with ads on Instagram for perimenopausal whatever it might be. And they're just making assumptions about me. Is it hair loss? Is it this? What are you going through? And they're trying to get me to click on something. So even more so with AI being not neutral, it almost seems like it's such an uphill battle. It's overwhelming. How can Christians interact with AI in a way that is godly, a way that is thoughtful? Cause as I'm asking this question I'm thinking about so many times and I'm not going to just say other people do this, I've probably done this where I've just, just mindlessly taken something in and not really thought it through. What is some advice for Christians as they interact? Even if, let's say there's a Christian who says I'm not going to use AI, I'm not going to have ChatGPT on my phone, I am not going to create images through AI, image generating things, whatever they're called even they're going to be interacting with AI and maybe not even realizing it. What are some warnings or tips help us with this?
- [35:25]
B
Yeah, well, I think one warning is to, as we say, I want to turn my mind back on and I want to approach this thoughtfully and intentionally. Is the story that you just shared about your dishwasher is that we have to think about the worldview of technology and the question is, why is technology created? Well, technology is created for convenience, for ease, immediacy. These are some of the priorities or values of technology. Now are those values bad? Of course not. It is not bad to have an easier time washing dishes so that you can maybe spend time doing other things. Like that's not a bad thing that we have more immediate or ease or convenient things in life. The question is, is that the highest goal? Is that the highest priority where now convenience and immediacy and ease become the highest priority? Well, if that's the truth, then how do we actually view difficulty in life? How do we view suffering? As Romans talks about the suffering produces Perseverance, Perseverance. Character. Character. Hope that hope doesn't disappoint us. Well, we know that going through difficult trials makes us better. That we learn from it, we grow from it. And if all we focus on is convenience, that turns us into apathetic or lazy individuals. Or it can very easily. And so that's where sometimes we're reminded by God's grace of the ways in which we sometimes have started using technology and relying more heavily on its convenience to make life easier. And we sometimes need to be reminded of the beauty of doing things that are more difficult. Sometimes that's for us and my family. We use Amazon. It's great. I love having things show up quickly. But we also go to actual grocery stores and I make sure to take that intentional time with my kids to ask them about fruit and vegetables we normally don't buy and talk to the cashier and have human interaction and these sort of things that are really wonderful. I think it's Jason Thacker in his book on technology where he talks about is it possible that modern technologies, I'm paraphrasing, is satisfying human comforts but starving human hearts.
- [37:23]
A
Oh, wow.
- [37:24]
B
And that's where I think we have to stop and think deeper about. And so that's a warning. The other warning, as you mentioned specifically with AI, is to think about the fact that when it comes to AI and specifically like social media, you are not paying for social media. Right? You're not paying for it. Okay, so then where are they getting money from? Advertisers. All right, so advertisers are the customer who are paying these social media companies. So what are they paying for? Well, they're paying for your eyes, they're paying for your attention. So your attention becomes the product that is being sold to advertisers to then get money for these social media companies. So if you are the product, then they're gonna want to try to get as much of your attention as you can. And you can look at many different ways in which social media has been designed and changed over the that have led to it being more attention seeking, addictive ways. Like Instagram is a never ending scroll because the moment you hit close, you don't know what could come up next. And that knowledge of what could come up next keeps you scrolling. So there's things like that that we have to be aware of. And so that's something that's helpful. Now there's a lot. Maybe I'll just throw this out quickly and then go back to you. But we can look at scripture and specifically doctrine of creation gives us a lot of key details that should shape how we think and use technology, recognizing that it's a good gift. We have to see God as creator, that we are not creators, we are not in control. We have to be able to recognize that humans are set apart, that humans are distinct aspect of God's creation. I'm preaching this Sunday on Psalm 8 that talks about humans being made a little lower than God, but above and over creation, to steward and have dominion over creation. We are not the creators, but we're also not equal to the other created things. We have to recognize that God rested. And the question is, do we ever take a time to rest from technology? Do we ever take breaks? I think that a big thing for us too is in thinking about this from a worldview kind of theological perspective is with God's creation, he created and designed limitations in the world. And where technology is wonderful is when it overcomes effects of the fall, right? So I'm wearing contacts right now because we live in a fallen, broken world where my eyes have gone bad and I've used technology to allow me to see you on the screen and read books. That's an amazing thing of technology. But if we're not careful, we can start to see all limitations as something that can and should be overcome or should and can be overcome. And rather than recognizing, is it possible that God designed sunrise and sunsets and light and dark as a break to say, hey, the sun is down, take a break, go to bed, get some rest. But because of technologies of light and Internet and everything, we can now work at all hours of the day. And is it possible we've actually overcome these designed limitations to never actually stop? And while we have all these technologies designed to help us get things done faster so that we can get more rest and more breaks, we actually just fill up that time with more work and more stuff. And so there's certain aspects like that I think, like, hey, are all these limitations something we should overcome? Or are some of these actually a result of creation and shouldn't be surpassed versus some are the results of the fall and we can use technology to help fix. And so there's a lot that we can look into biblically to try to shape how we understand this. And the importance of human physical interaction can never be replaced by something digital.
- [41:00]
A
I have been so encouraged to see so many parents become very intentional in trying to instill critical thinking in their children, give them a biblical worldview, even teach them about things like logical fallacies and what do other religions believe? And why do we believe Christianity is true? Well, my number one recommendation for a curriculum for this purpose is Foundation Worldview Curriculum for that younger elementary age. This curriculum is absolutely foundational and I think you're going to learn a lot too, as you go through it with your child. They have several different options from the Biblical Worldview curriculum, which is the one we did in our home. In our homeschool, it taught me and my son to answer questions like, what is truth? Who is God? How did life begin? What does it mean to be human? How can I tell right from wrong? And they also have curriculums on biblical sexuality and gender and the hot topics that our kids are facing in our culture. I love that these curriculums can be easily implemented in the home, your church, your Christian school. Absolutely everywhere. So go to foundationworldview.com and use my code ALISA, for 10% off any family, church or Christian school license. Again, that's foundationworldview.com, use my code Alisa. Well, I wanna camp here on the Fall a little bit because I've been thinking about this a lot and it has to do even with people's assumption that technology is neutral and especially that AI. You know, you go to ChatGPT, you ask it a question, it's just gonna give you the unbiased, neutral response. I think that a lot of people think that when they come to something ChatGPT, and it's similar to the way I think people think about secularism. They think, oh, if you're religious, you have this bias, but if you're secular, you just have this kind of neutral worldview that you're not importing any assumptions into things. And our friend Natasha Crane kind of busted that myth in her book, I Believe it was faithfully different, where she said, secularism is not neutral. It also has biases and things that are coming into it and informing the way that it's going to answer things. But I want to talk about the Fall and how that particularly affects affects people's use of AI, because I do think a lot of people, maybe even Christians, come to AI and they think, oh, well, I'm just going to get this completely neutral response from AI. But I think even understanding how AI works and what it learns from should bust that myth. But talk about the effect of the Fall on AI and even maybe what AI is going to spit out to you. But also the way we use AI. What are some things you're seeing on that topic?
- [43:26]
B
Well, first is the effect of the Fall On AI is the fact that all AI is designed and programmed by fallen human beings. And so there are many examples that have been pointed out of the bias and different fallen aspects of AI as it is mimicking fallen, broken, sinful human beings. And so the fact that fallen humans are designing and creating these systems, often the bias and opinions of humans are getting put into these systems and we are then seeing the effects of it. So there's been examples in hiring and things of that nature where it's been eliminating candidates based on a very biased metric or system and even kind of racist things are coming out as well. And so that's an aspect of how the Fall has influenced AI. Then there's also how AI influences us in thinking about us because we are fallen. And so, I mean, think about this, Lisa. What was the temptation of the Fall? What was Satan's temptation in the garden? That you can become like God in knowing good and evil? Like this idea that you can be like God. What has technology done? It's made us think that we are gods, that we are like God, that we have control, that we can overcome all. Why do I need God? I don't need a savior. AI will save us. Yuval Noah Harari is a scholar and a non Christian scholar. I think I forget exactly. I should have written this down at Oxford or somewhere of that nature. And he talks about AI in his book Homo Deus. Now, instead of he believes this idea like that we are not just Homo sapiens, but through evolution and transhumanism, we will become Homo deus, we will be human gods. And he argues, quote, they don't think of death as a metaphysical mystery. And they certainly don't view death as a source of life's meaning. Rather, for modern people, death is a technical problem that we can and should solve. And so this idea of, look, this is why thinking and speaking about AI is so important, is if we start to see everything as a technical issue. If we think of this physicalistic sense of the world that everything is physical, that surely science and technology, being physical things, should be able to solve all the problems. We've been able to solve a lot of problems through AI and technology. Now we start thinking we can solve all of our problems and there's no longer a sin problem, there's no longer a human death problem as a result of the Fall. Instead, this is just a technical problem and that we will someday figure out how to merge technology and human to the point where we overcome death as well. It's just a technical problem that we can and should solve. And so that's where the fall is causing us to have a distinctly different even view of salvation, of the gospel, where we have to be very clear that in scripture it is God who has overcome death. It is only through the death and resurrection of Jesus that our sin problem can actually be solved. This is not a technical problem, it's a spiritual problem. But I think the Fall has created. The temptation of the fall is that we are going to become like God and then we are God, that we are the author of our lives, we are in control of everything. And we now have this amazingly powerful computing that also gives us the illusion that we are in control and can do anything, even replace God with overcoming the fundamental problem of humanity. And that is the problem of death and no longer having a need for Jesus.
- [46:48]
A
Well, and there's some guy, I can't think of his name, but I always see him being talked about online where he's trying ultimately to do this, to defeat death and to stop aging or reverse aging. And he won't go in the sun. It seems like it's just taking over his entire life with all of these, the regimen that he has. Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you know who I'm talking about?
- [47:07]
B
I don't know the exact person. There's a lot of different people doing that, looking at different scientific technologies of how do we actually overcome this problem. And one of my professors in my master's program, Clay Jones, talks about this in his book Immortal, where he talks about how everyone has immortality projects. And some are more figurative of I'm gonna live on through my family legacy or I'm gonna become famous and they're gonna slap my name on some building and there's gonna be the Ryan Pauly library at such and such school, and I will be immortal and I'm gonna live on in people's minds and memories. Or there are people that are trying physical immortality projects and cryogenics and all these sort of things to try to figure out how can we overcome this problem of death. Because in that book he talks about the fear of death drives us. And for many, we then have what he calls. He also says there's some have immortality mitigation problems. I don't wanna live forever. Living forever would be boring. And so we try to dismiss the problem of our impending death by just saying it doesn't actually matter. And so those are the two different solutions people have of either ignoring it or trying to figure out some figurative or actual physical way of Overcoming it. And then obviously he argues, looking at the death and resurrection of Jesus, that there is only one immortality project and that is life with Christ. But it's a problem that is causing a lot of people to try to figure out, how do we solve this fundamental human problem?
- [48:28]
A
Yeah. Okay, as we land the plane here, I wanna talk through three principles that you've got in your chapter here because. Or actually four, because they're so helpful, I think, and just maybe just give a little commentary on each one of these. The first one is you're putting this, by the way, in the context of personal containment. How do you contain AI for yourself? How do you steward this for yourself? And the first one is delay adoption. Talk about that.
- [48:51]
B
Yeah. So this actually, this thought process started because Mustafa Soliman wrote a book called the Coming Wave. And in that book he talks about all technology is coming in in waves and you can't stop the wave. All you can do is just prepare for it. And he goes, but with modern technology and AI, it's not a wave coming and it's a tsunami. And if we are not prepared, it will destroy us. And that is a leading AI researcher saying, this is going to destroy us if we're not careful. And so maybe that's something to listen to. And so in his book, he talks about containment problems and the problem of containment at containing AI on a large scale. And that really it is not possible to contain. And so then that's where I took that and go, okay, if we can't contain it at a large scale, then we have to be thinking about individually as personal containment. And so that's where I kind of come up with these points. So delaying adoption is simply just delay the use of AI for children and students, because AI is presenting a worldview, because AI tells you what's important, what's valuable, what matters. That's what we talked about just a moment ago of immediacy and things of that nature. I think it's important for all of us, especially our students, to form their beliefs, form their values, form disciplines before accepting AI. And so hopefully then you can. For example, I use ChatGPT. I use it a lot, but I have very clear, distinctive lines of what I believe is a value and ethical use of it, so that I'm hopefully using it to steward and stewarding it well for the flourishing of humans, not to just do whatever it can do. And so just because something can do something doesn't mean it should do that thing. And so having those sort of questions of why do I Want this new technology? What does it do for me? What is it keeping me from doing? How does it shape my view of God? These are some, I think, key, important values that we have to build into ourselves and our students before we give them technology so that they're now using technology based on biblical values, not allowing technology itself to shape the values. And I think that's what I'm trying to get at with delaying adoption.
- [50:59]
A
That's good. The second one is find solitude.
- [51:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's a spiritual discipline. Jesus himself went out and got silence in solitude. It's a spiritual practice of silence and solitude. How do we actually separate? How do we actually break away from the busyness of life? And there's almost no place that we can go to in life anymore that actually allows us to have a disconnect and allows us to have any sort of sense of solitude? And so I think when we are looking at this idea, what I'm trying to help people think about is, is there a moment where you're disconnected? Is there a moment where you actually get away? Is there a moment where your mind is actually clear? If we have technology constantly giving input, input, input, input, where we never disconnect, then there's never a time for us to think for ourselves, for us to try to practice any sort of spiritual disciplines, for us to think about what's important for us to have that space, to be bored and to wonder, because something is constantly coming into our minds. When I speak at Summit Ministries, I know you do as well. I speak on entertainment culture. I play a song from twenty one Pilots titled Car Radio. And the whole song is about how his car radio was broken and how he had to sit inside, and it drove him crazy. And he said, the quiet is violent. I can't hide from what I feel. There's no place to, you know, then. And it's just, how often do we use technology to distract us from actually dealing with the difficulties of life? How often do we use technology to fill every single moment, to give us the appearance that we are being productive, but we're actually not? Versus, do we have deliberate, intentional times of living fully in the moment rather than constantly filling it with technology use? And I think something that was very interesting in this, and if I can give two quick stories, is one, the Masters Golf Tournament. Some pictures just surface as they just played the Masters not too long ago. I guess it's against the rules to have a phone at the Masters. And so you look at pictures of when the guy wins the Masters and he's on the green celebrating his championship. All the people are like looking and intentional and celebrating. They're there in that moment. And then you look at other sports competitions of someone hitting the game, winning shot and all you see are phones in front of people's faces and how we sometimes think, I need to capture this moment rather than just live in the moment. I went to my favorite concert of one of my artists and I just recorded a couple clips of his songs cause I wanted some recordings, but I tried my best. It's like, let me put my phone down and enjoy this moment. And this hit me so strongly when I was at the park playing with my kids kid and my 4 year old son goes, dad, record me going down this slide. And so I pick up my phone to record him. And then I thought, is this what my son is going to see at all key moments of his life?
- [54:02]
A
Wow.
- [54:03]
B
When he is having some huge moment on a stage and a play and a song in a sports competition, when he looks over at dad, is this what he's going to see?
- [54:12]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [54:13]
B
Or is he going to see his dad's face going, yes, son, I'm here. Is it more important to be in the moment with my son or is it more important to capture that moment now? I think we should capture some things. I'm not against taking videos and recordings, but I think are we ever taking that break and finding solitude from technology to just spend time with God in prayer?
- [54:33]
A
Wow, that's so good. That's a convicting word, I think, for all of us. But it's so important because even of course, how we relate with the rest of our family, our husbands, our spouses, our children and all of that, but even the Lord. I have found that since I've had an iPhone, I got one when I think I was 25, since I've had that. And then of course with the ramp up of social media and now AI, it becomes harder and harder and harder for me to want to put it all aside and just spend some time with the Lord. Even, you know, my tendency is to want to study the Word and that's great. I'm glad that there's technology that helps me study the Bible better and I have access to more commentaries that I can access more quickly. And word studies and all sorts of things are so wonderful, wonderful. But even sometimes that can distract from actually taking time to sit in the quiet with the Lord. And one of the ways that I try to do that, I have a lot of flowers around my property and I grow Some different flowers, and I'll go out in the morning and I'll just start clipping flowers and make a bouquet that I'll bring in the house for the day. And that's just my kind of detox time to talk to the Lord. But here's my temptation. This is why it's convicting is I also use Chatgpt to help me with my garden. So sometimes, like when I'm out in the garden in the afternoon and I see something wrong with one of the plants, I'll take a picture and be like, ah, what's going on here? What do I need to do? And Chat is a pretty helpful farmer, you know. So I'll ask ChatGPT. But like, I'll be out in the morning and I'll see a flower and I'll be like, oh, I need to ask. Oh, wait, I didn't bring Chat out with me. And that's good because I need this quiet time. I can do that later. And it's very, I think it's very difficult, I think, in the society we live in, the culture we live in, to be intentional to do that. So that is such an important point, I think, for all of us to do. And that is like the model of Jesus just brings me so much comfort because I'm an introvert, naturally. Anyway, the fact that he also had to get away from all the people and get by himself with the Father. And I think that's so important. And then the next one is really connected to that which is be present.
- [56:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. So that's where like, yeah, finding solitude is like, are we practicing spiritual disciplines? Are we finding some quiet time to just reflect and meditate on scripture? Being present is. Then what I was also talking about is are we obviously just with the people that we should be with? And that's also where I talk about this idea of the phone and what is my son going to see? And I had a similar illustration of you or situation where I was in Colorado on a family trip before speaking at Summit, and my parents took me and my family up to the lake and it was time for my youngest son's nap. And so I put him on a carrier on my chest in time for a nap. My wife and older son went off into the shore and they were throwing rocks and playing in the mud and dirt. And I'm sitting there on the boat and so my son is now napping. And I went, oh, this is the perfect time to read. I was researching for this chapter and so I'm like, oh, Let me grab my Kindle and read my book. And so I was like, oh, bummer, I don't have my Kindle. And I go, oh, that's okay, I got Kindle app on my phone. And so I take out my phone and I open up the book. And I just so happen to be at that moment reading the Shallows by Nicholas Carr where he talks about what the Internet is doing to our brain. And I go to the next chapter and it's just so crazy how it works. And I this way. And it talks about how the Internet has become like a drug to where we constantly need it, need it, need it. And we cannot take a break and just be in the moment, but we're constantly having to feed our mind with more information. And I stopped and I'm in the beautiful mountains of Colorado, sitting on a boat in this lake and I went, why do I feel like I have to spend this moment of 30 minute nap of my son on my chest doing more research and reading? Why can I watch and enjoy watching my oldest son play in the mud, skip rocks and look around at the mountains and the beautiful creation around, around me? And it just shows how much that it is shaping even me as I'm researching for this chapter and doing the very things that it says that it's doing to us. And so that's where it's saying, hey, can we be present in that moment? Can we actually put our phones down at dinner? Can you put your phone away? Maybe not even in your pockets, you feel it buzzing in your pocket and just be present and show the people that they actually matter. There's a quote that I love on this, and it comes from John Dyer book From the Garden to the City. And here's what he says. He goes, spiritual depth requires the ability to pray for more than a few minutes, to memorize and meditate on Scripture, not search for it online, and to love God with our hearts and minds. This means that we must be careful to cultivate and retain the skill of thinking deeply, reading and sincerely contemplating the things of God, something that attention technologies do not value. Faithfulness also requires that we can sit with a person and deeply listen without being distracted by a phone or wearing. There may be no greater Christian witness in our time than someone who can truly master the art of listening. Well, in an age of constant distraction. And I think he absolutely hits it on the head right there with that idea.
- [59:23]
A
Yeah. And especially as our kids grow and learn how to interact with the world and learn how to interact with technology, I think this is so important. And the final one here is take breaks. Is there a practical way to do that? Even as a family? I know that one of the things that we do is we don't have phones, obviously, at the dinner table. And part of my thinking on that is obviously for the reasons that we're talking about, but also because I want to reinforce with my kids and everything that when they're at somebody else's house, it's rude to pull out your phone when there's a conversation happening, that sort of thing. So what are some practical things families can do, individual people can do, to take breaks?
- [60:02]
B
Yeah. Well, I think this is something that we have to have accountability for. And I love the fact that I'm married to a wife who cares deeply about. About this. And so, like I said, I struggle with these same issues. And so there's times where my wife is like, hey, can you put your phone down? Like, can you be present? And it's like, yeah, I get so distracted by the next thing I have to do or the email that just came in. And that's the problem with many technologies today is I get my email on my phone and I get my text messages, and I get everything that has to. And every, you know, notifications, I have most. And that's. And that's actually one. One key detail is turn off your notifications when technology is something that you should be using, not it trying to use you, in a sense. And so if notifications are turned on for every single app you have, then your phone is constantly just saying, check me, check me, check me, check me, check me. Look here, look here, look here. Rather than saying, no, I'll look when I want to look. And so I have notifications for email turned on and for text messaging, and that's pretty much it. No social media or anything. I'll check Instagram when I want to, rather than it telling me that I have to check it at this moment. And it's funny because all the apps are like, your notifications aren't turned on. Don't you want to stay up to date with what's happening? It's like, no, I'm good. So that's one way to kind of take breaks. The other is what you mentioned is having intentional times throughout the day and even days of the week. So for me, all social media is blocked on Saturday and Sunday to where I don't have access and phones can set that up to where it's like, hey, I don't want to do this. Email is blocked on Sunday. It doesn't matter if it's a work email or an email from one of my students. I'm sorry, you're not getting a response on Sunday day. And so how do we have those intentional breaks? One thing I love is like our car that we have has the ability to where when you turn on the car, the radio doesn't turn on as the first thing and you actually have to intentionally turn it on versus my other car just instantly comes on. And so the question is, maybe there's a day of the week where you're driving your kids to school where you don't turn on music or something and you actually just ride talking to each other instead of listening to something and distracting yourself as you go. And so I think those are some habits that we can do of screen free times of the day day, screen free meals, even screen free zones of your house. Another one of my neighbors, as I was writing this chapter, I thought he only had two daughters, and it turned out he had three. And I said, oh, I've never seen your oldest daughter. Oh, well, she never comes out of her bedroom. Well, why not? Well, because she's got a TV in her bedroom, she's got her phone and her laptop in her bedroom, she's got air conditioning and heating in her bedroom. Why would she come out unless she's hungry? And he even recognized that. And so that's a reality of like, maybe there needs to be some screen free zones. Your bedroom is for sleep, sleeping, not for just staying and watching tv. And so that's something to think through practically as well. And so are we actually intentionally taking breaks? And maybe it even gets into. Maybe it's a one day a week or a couple hours during the week that you take a break. But maybe are there longer times where maybe once a quarter, are you taking a weekend off once a year? Are you taking a week off? Is there a time where you actually just shut your phone down? And that's one thing that we do on maven trips, is that we tell students you can't have your phone for a whole week. Week. We're taking it away on Sunday and you don't get it back till the next Saturday. And it's amazing what happens when you actually disconnect for an entire week and how intentional people get with those around them. And you start to see things and recognize things that you wouldn't normally have seen or recognized because you're not distracted about what's happening somewhere else. And you can actually be present in the moment.
- [63:23]
A
So good and that's a perfect segue to talk about the Maven trips. Just take a second here and let everybody know about these trips, because my daughter, of course, went to Utah with you and got her phone taken away for a week, which it's so funny, because to be on the other side of that, like, I was thrilled. I was like, yes, that's wonderful. But then I was like, but wait, I can't ask her how she's doing. But actually, that's good, too, because I remember I was in third grade when I went on my summer camp, you know, at church for a whole week, and I couldn't talk to my mom for a week either. And I was only in third grade. And it's good for our kids even to get that sense of independence and figure out, you know, okay, I can't run to mom with this. I got to go somewhere else. I got to invest, interact with the people around me, and so talk about these Maven trips, because they're so good. And do you do the Utah one? Do you also do the Berkeley one or just the Utah one?
- [64:11]
B
So we don't go to Berkeley anymore.
- [64:13]
A
Okay, we'll talk about the trips for people and how they can learn about more.
- [64:18]
B
Yeah. Well, and to your other point as well, is you mentioned sometimes we get more pushback from parents or as much pushback from parents taking away the student's phone as we do the students. Because, again, that connection of. But I can't check on my student all the time.
- [64:30]
A
I prayed more that week than I normally do, so it was good for me, too.
- [64:34]
B
Well, and amazing, again, how this technology does something amazing. It keeps us connected. It makes us know that our kids are safe. But is it possible that keeps us from relying on God and saying, God, I trust you with my student? And again, that's how we think about this idea of it's not just how you use your phone, but the mere existence of it is shaping, informing you spiritually. And I think that's another example. So, yeah, I know you recently had Brett Naron on the show, the founders of Maven. And so I've had the privilege. Privilege. Brett hired me as one of the field Guides in 2017 when Maven was launched. And so since 2017, now coming up on, I guess, nine years, I have been leading these trips. And then back in 2023, I took over as the director of Immersive Experiences. So we have what we call the Immersive Experience program that includes a biblical trip, and that is focused on what do Christians believe And that goes in depth into theology. And that one is the one that your daughter went on to Utah, where we engage in theological conversations with members, Mormon, LDS Church. We also have an apologetics trip, and that's going to focus on why do we believe it. And that one now goes to instead of Berkeley, that one we can lead to Los Angeles, to Santa Cruz, California, Flagstaff, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, which is where I'll be next month. And now Asheville, North Carolina. And so that one, we're trying to create locations across the country, no matter where groups are from, that they can train their groups and take them to, hopefully somewhere close and have a few strategic places around the country. And that one we don't just include, engage with Mormons on theological questions, but we bring in unity pastors and Unitarian Universalists and atheists and Muslims. We go to a mosque. And so that one is more of introducing students to a wide range of beliefs, going onto college campuses and having conversations, trying to help them point to the gospel and show that Christianity actually is true and why we believe it. The last trip we have is a worldview immersive experience where that one goes to Los Angeles. And now it focuses on what we believe and why we believe, believe it, but why it matters. And so that one is focused on a biblical perspective on different aspects of life. So we go on a biblical view of beauty and art, and we take them to the Getty Museum, a biblical view of evil, pain and suffering. Go to a Holocaust museum, a biblical view of poverty, and we go to the Orange County Rescue Mission. And so that one is trying to give them a Christian worldview perspective and then give them a practical experience that lines up with that perspective. And so we run this year, we're running 16 of these trips all across the country. Many of them are designed, most of them are designed for, like, a school school or a youth group or some sort of group that says, hey, will you create a trip for us? And then we create a customized trip just for that group to one of our locations. And then what your daughter went on is what we also have is called an open enrollment immersive experience. And this is for individual students from families who say, hey, my youth pastor is not going for this, or my school is not going for this, but I still want my kid to go. How can I do this? And so this year we're doing two of them. One to Utah and then one to Colorado, which is what I'm leading. And so there's one option for a biblical immersive experience. One option for an apologetic immersive experience where individual students can sign up, receive the training and then go engage in a week long experience putting this training into practice in the real life and having sometimes for the first time, actual gospel conversations. And it's incredible to see what this actually does to students and the confidence it gives them as they dig deep into theology and apologetics. They put it into practice and go, wow, I can actually do this. And then they go back home wanting to do it well.
- [67:55]
A
And you know, my daughter knows more about Mormonism than I do. It's great. Like, I'll ask her my questions about Mormonism because of what she learned when she went on the trip with you. Where can people look into registering and
- [68:07]
B
all that is@maventruth.com yeah, so maventruth.com, and then go to the immersive experience tab. And that's where you can see the differences between all three of our trips. And so if you're a group that wants to sign up, you can email ryanaventruth.com and I'll get you set up. Or if you are an individual parent with an individual student. Our 2026 trips are closed. We're going out next month, but we should be announcing our 2027 locations at some point in the fall. We try to get it out by September or so. So you can go to maventruth.com and follow Maven or email me and I'll make sure you get information on when those trips for next year are available.
- [68:45]
A
Well, I want to thank my guest, Ryan Pauly. I want to encourage you to pick up this book and learn more. It's called Stewarding AI edited by Deanna Huff and Brian G. Ryan Pauley. Eric Hernandez also involved with contributions. I also want to really encourage you guys to think about these Maven trips. Somebody on X was under the false assumption that these trips are just for the purpose of broadening horizons and letting the kids. You know what I love about these trips is it equips students with a biblical worldview, trains them in theology, trains them in apologetics, and then puts it to the test in real life situations while they're being discipled actively by Christians who are very knowledgeable in these topics. This is something that is so equipping for kids as they get out into the world. They are going to be interacting with atheists and Mormons and all sorts of different types of people. And what a beautiful experience to expose them to those ideas while they're being protected and under the care of people who are discipling them well. So I really want to to recommend these trips if you have a student. And the theological trip to Utah, the apologetics trips. So wonderful. Go to maven maventruth.com for that. And yeah, let's remember as we pursue Christ, let's keep a sharp mind, a soft heart and a thick skin. We'll see you next time. So pray for me and I will pray for. Left will make it through the road that's narrow and the gate that small don't give up it's gonna be worth it all.