← The Audiobook Club with John York
The Audiobook Club with John York
Holly June Smith | Author and Quinn Writer
00:49:17
Writing for audio and advice for upcoming creatives
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign hello and welcome to the Audiobook Club. In this week's episode, we are so lucky to be joined by author and writer of Quinn Audios, Holly June Smith. Holly, thank you so much for joining me on the show. How are you today?
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B
I am really good. Thank you so much for having me. And before we start, I actually haven't congratulated you on your 150k.
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A
Thank you very much.
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B
Are you the kind of person that would like, toot your own horn or do you need other people to do it for you?
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A
I get other people all the way.
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B
That's for you. Exciting.
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A
Thank you very much. Thank you. And I want to jump into so many questions about Queen in and you and your journey and your, and your time there in just a little bit. But as is tradition on the show, we do love a routine here. I'd really love to start by getting to know a little bit more about your background. So am I right in saying that your background education specifically is in TV and film production?
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B
Yeah, I have a really, I have a really, well, what I would describe as a really roller coaster career journey. But I think that people of my age, the more people I speak to, they've all had roller coaster career journeys because it's not like it used to be where you went to university and you did one thing and then you got a job for the rest of your life. So I, it's so strange. I basically, I'm from the northeast of Scotland and then I lived in Hampshire for a bit when I was a kid and then I moved back to Scotland and because of the way the schooling worked, it meant I went to college when I was 15 and then I studied TV and film production and I did that for three years there. So there was like TV, film, radio, lots of. It was really amazing because you got to write your own stuff, but then you got to direct other people's projects. You got to do sound lighting, galley stuff on everybody else's projects. It was amazing. But that meant that by the time I finished, I'd, I'd like only just turned 19 and there's not really a film industry in the northeast of Scotland. And I was just way too nervous to do the like, oh, I'm going to go to London and be a runner and eat beans for two years thing. And so I, I got a job in a bank, which is like not my, not my thing at all, but really a fun experience for a while. And from there it's just been like, writing has kind of always been like a little Bit of lots of other jobs that I've done. So I also, I ran a ski center for several years. But a lot of that was also like making sure that their website and their social media was done. And then I worked in the charity sector on their digital projects for a number of years. And so writing was a big part of that. But I would also have always like a blog or side projects or things on, you know, things I just thought were not really taking writing very seriously. So it's really, really fun to be where I am now and going back and using all of those kind of script writing skills that I just thought, oh, that'll never be anything, but it's like it's still there.
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A
Yeah, it's interesting because it seems like through like those different careers, it seems like sort of picking. You can see the parts of them that have now all come together in the things that you do now, which is, which is really interesting. Really. So like, how did that transition come about into writing into, you know, taking that more seriously? As you say, how did the. Where were you just before that? And what sort of, what sort of caused you to make that decision into. Okay, this is something that I'm going to put a lot of focus on.
- [03:47]
B
It's really, it's really hard to pinpoint like an exact light bulb moment day. I, when I was working in the charity sector, I started a business, a side business as a wedding celebrant. So I still am a wedding celebrant and that means I marry real life couples and I get to tell their real life love stories. And I've been doing that for 12 years. And that's amazing because you get to meet a lot of people and I, and I always like interview my couples separately and I get to hear both sides of their story and then I get to craft these really personal ceremonies for people. And then I don't think that until about five years ago, I don't think I really thought of that as writing. Even though it 100% is writing. I always say it combines my favorite things, which is like writing being the center of attention because you're on the stage, even though obviously the bride and groom are the center of attention. And being nosy about people's lives because I get to ask them so much stuff that their friends and families would not necessarily ask them. And then I think that I always had this idea that there was like a book in me. I believe that about everybody. And I'd been working on a novel for ages, way too long that had got to like 70,000 words. And then I went for a massage one day and I had this other book idea from start to finish, whole story, all the characters. It was going to be the first in a series. And I came home and I was like, oh, that's really annoying because I've got this other book that I'm writing. So I decided I would sit down and get everything out of my head and just shelve it and then come back to it once I'd finished the first one. And by the end of that day I'd written nearly 10,000 words, which I've never written 10,000 words in the day since, but it was great day and I've never gone back to that first book. And that book is the best book Boyfriend, which is my first full length novel that came out a couple of years ago or last year. I don't know. It's been a whirlwind for years, so there's always been. It's interesting you say that thing about like the threads of it all coming together because I have always believed that when in your working life you. You just go towards the things that you do, more of the things that you're like and then you get rid of the things that you don't like about a certain job. And then that just keeps you on this kind of river of flow, I guess, of things that interest you rather than it be that you're going down this path of being stuck somewhere with all the bits that you don't like?
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A
Yeah, that is really interesting. Yeah, no, it makes perfect. Do you think like your work as a wedding celebrant like influences the way that you approach like one romance stories, but then also characters because you must come across some really interesting characters. Are you, are you a person who comes across somebody and thinks you're going straight in my, in my next one.
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B
I'm really, really careful to not put real life people in my books because I don't want to get. I don't want to get sued. Further down the line there might be like odd snippets of conversation or things that have happened to certain people that are really funny and memorable. So like I always remember this one couple who got engaged in a restaurant over dinner and he gave her the ring and she put it on and she said, oh my God, it fits perfectly. And then she did this and it flew across the room and landed literally in someone else's dinner. So that kind of thing is. It's funny in real life and it would be really funny In a book. I haven't put that in a book, but maybe one day. So I'm really mindful to kind of keep it separate because I don't want to. I don't want to muddy those waters or ever be like, can you imagine being accused of objectifying somebody's brand new husband in your next novel? I got enough ideas on my own without needing to borrow other people's.
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A
Yeah, yeah, that's so. But you must spend like so much of your time consumed with love and romance and that kind of thing. I mean, does that. I don't know, does that sort of affect the way that you sort of see life now? I don't know. Is that. Is that a weird thing to ask?
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B
I think it's given me a really, really good understanding of the many different ways that people can find their happy ever after. So in a romance novel, the kind of guarantee happy ending. But in real life, I work with people who are maybe on their second marriage or they started as long distance or they've overcome lots of different challenges in their relationship to get to the point that they are standing up in front of their families and friends and seeing their vows. So I think in that sense, yeah, it's just opened my eyes to there being a lot of different experiences that people have with love.
- [08:20]
A
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I can totally appreciate that, to be fair. Can you. So can I tell you something which was released last year. We're less than 100 days away from Christmas, I believe, if I've worked that out Right.
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B
I think I saw someone say that the other day.
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A
Yeah. And, you know, and tis the time that we start to get our winter tales lined up and ready for it. So I wanted to know what listeners of this podcast can expect from this story. If they aren't aware of this, you know, why should they be? You know, I'm not asking you to pitch it or anything, but what could. What can they look forward to? What could they be excited for about. About getting their mitts around this tale with.
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B
Can I tell you something? So can I tell you something Is my first Christmas book that I wrote last year. I'm an. I'm an indie author, so I treat every part of my work as an experiment and there's nothing I won't try. And I knew that it would probably be a smart move to write a Christmas book because a lot of romance readers only read Christmas books in the month of December. They love novellas. And so I thought, I'm going to go down that route. And I wrote this Book. I wrote this book last September in a heat wave, and it's set in the Alps. So I spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos of people skiing and going deep and miming my own ski holiday memories. So it is a perfect winter read. And it is about this young woman called Hannah. She's an entertainment lawyer. She works for her dad's company, and she has had some really, really bad relationship. Things happen with her. And as a result of that, she's kind of not interested in pursuing men. And she's found audio erotica on the Internet, and that is her new hyper fixation. And she's particularly interested in the voice of one actor called Mac and Please. And so the book starts with her flying out to her family's little chalet in the French Alps, and she's going to be spending Christmas with her parents. And she has a brother who works in TV production in Hollywood and he's not coming home. So she's just looking forward to having like a few days to just chill out and eat and sleep and read. But then her brother turns up and as a surprise, he has brought his roommate with her, who she immediately recognizes to be this favorite voice actor of hers. So I think for a lot of listeners of Quinn and other kinds of audio erotica, it's that kind of fantasy that come to life of being stuck in the mountains for two weeks with your crush, who happens to be your brother's best friend. But obviously he doesn't know who she is. He doesn't know anything about this woman, and he doesn't know that she's a fan until he discovers some DMS that she sent.
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A
Nice. Nice.
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B
From there with a guaranteed happy ever after.
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A
We'll get into more specifics a little bit later. Show. But just to let people know immediately that the links to this, by the way, will be available in the show notes if you want to click on it immediately. And we'll come back to that a little bit. But I'm fascinated in learning more about how your process differs when planning a story for audio. First, because it's a little bit different from. Than the way that some writers go about it. So I'd love to know a little bit more about, you know, your process, your ideas and thoughts behind this.
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B
It's. Yeah, it's so interesting because I wrote that book and then because of the very nature of the content of the book, it made sense to have that turned into an audiobook. So that's been happening this summer that's coming out on the 1st of November, and I was listening to the tapes last week and signing them off and thinking, oh, I might have written that bit slightly differently if I had known at the time that it was going to be turned into an audiobook. And that means that now with my other writing, other book writing, I do sort of think of it slightly differently. Yeah, it's really interesting. My. My books always start with an outline. I am a planner. I kind of have. I have so many ideas and I have this blank outline template that I work with and it has the kind of set beats that readers will expect to have, and there's loads of different ways to outline boots, but I basically sit down with my blank outline and I see if I can fill in every single one of those squares, and if I can, that I'm really confident that I can write that book. And there are about 12 or 15 of those on my computer just waiting for me to pick them up when. When they get in the queue. So that, for me is a really solid process of knowing. There's a good beginning, middle and end. There's good conflict, there's good tension. These characters are developed enough that I can turn them into fully developed people. But then the art of writing stories for Quinn is. Is totally different. And I love the craft of it. I love being able to figure out how am I going to tell this story through dialogue only and through one person's perspective. And that is a creative challenge that I find really, really rewarding because it's not easy. You know what it's like, how do.
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A
You do it usually, sort of. So I do one a week. So I have. I have five to six days of moping around the house, swearing at the walls that I have no ideas, and then whatever the smallest little glint of the thing that has. Has poked its head out through those six days. And then I force myself to not leave this office until a basic sort of script is done and then we sort of go from there. But it's. This was one of the things that I was going to actually ask you as we. Traditions there. So maybe we can chat a little bit more about it now. But like. So you started work, you started working on. With. With Shane. With Shane. He's writing for. Writing audios for Quinn. How did that come about? Like, how was you first, like, approached with the idea and like, you know, because audio erotica is such different content from audiobooks and it can be, you know, from traditional stories most of the time. I'd love to know, like, your first sort of if there was any Challenges to sort of get your head around writing those stories from that. From there.
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B
So I was first introduced to Shane because I was looking for a company to produce my audiobook, and East House Productions came highly recommended. They were the first company I spoke to, the only company I spoke to, because he is so great. He really knows his stuff as a narrator and a storyteller, but also as a producer of audiobooks. So when I first spoke to him about Can I tell you something? And I was explaining, he's an audio erotica actor, so he works for. In the book. He's not affiliated with any one platform. He. He kind of has his own Patreon style thing. You've got to be so careful in books that you don't name specific things because you don't know how that's going to work out for you. But he was really interested in how. In how that works and how it's slightly different to the world of audiobook narration. Even though he does a lot of romance audiobook stuff. Same and similar to you. And you've worked together. Right. Did you do faking with benefits?
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A
Yeah, we did. Yeah. He's been on the podcast as well. Yeah, we've. I've been aware. I don't know how aware he is of my stuff before we work together, but I've been a huge fan of his stuff for years.
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B
Yeah, he's great. He's really great. So I kind of explained what it is that their character does in the book, and then, you know, production kicked off. And then independently of that, Quinn approached him to join the platform. And then we had a separate conversation about what that might look like for him, what he's interested in doing, and he wanted to bring a writer on board. So the fit felt really, really good. One of the things that he knew from. So in the can I tell you something? Book, there are extracts of audio scripts kind of peppered throughout it, and there are four different audios that run through the story. And that was kind of to give readers who aren't in the audio erotica world a sense of what that looks like. But I think that meant that he understood that I could. I could write a script. So, yeah, we just took it from there. We've had. We had a lot of conversations about what it is that he wants to bring to the platform. Ideas that I've had. For me, it's really great because I have so many ideas and not everything needs to be a full book or do I have time for it to be a full book? Because I am only one person. And so it's really, really fun being able to turn those stories into. Into an audio erotica script. And like I say, the craft of telling that story through one person's dialog and, you know, sfx, that's one of my favorite bits about it is figuring out, like, what's going to go where. What's really going to carry the story forward. Yeah. Because that, you know, when you listen to audios and they have really good effects, it just makes a world of difference, I think.
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A
So it's interesting because right at the start when you were studying film and tv, I'm imagining there was some script writing. There is a big part of it, you know, making shorts and all that sort of stuff. Quinn is a lot similar to a sort of film script, isn't it, in terms of, like, effects and, you know, in actions and, you know, it's sort of explaining. I don't know specifically how you do it. I'd love to know. For me, I do write it out almost like a screenplay so that I could say that I'm understanding. And especially if you're working with another person, if you're doing like a collab and things, I will write. I just did one with AJ last week and I sent him a screenplay, essentially. So it is, it's interesting how. Yeah. Have you sort of delved back into that when you first started, like, writing, like, screenplays things and then brought it forward? Is that. Is that.
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B
Yeah, I'm the same. I write it like a screenplay. So there is dialogue for both characters and I think that's really important as well. That really helps with the pacing because you know, you know what it's like when you listen to audios. You kind of like, as the listener, imagine what you would say in response to what the speaker is saying.
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A
Yeah.
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So although those lines never, ever appear in the actual finished product, that for me they're there in the script because they really help to carry the story forward.
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Yeah.
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And there's tons of guides for sfx, tons of stage direction because, yeah, it's, you know, you're asking another person to, to. To perform this work. What's funny about it and challenging is because Shane and I are both British and so you, you know what we're like, we dance around these things and sometimes we've had to just laugh and say, like, look, we are having a conversation about an orgasm here. So can like, let's just say the. Let's just say what we're saying. We don't need to dance around and, you know, I'll put in like, orgasm at discretion. But then sometimes it does need to be a bit more like, no, this needs to be like a really intense one. Or this really needs to be softer. Or you're more in your head. Yeah. So it's. We have a lot of fun with it. It's really. I find that really interesting. And what's wonderful for me is I. I have Aphantasia. Are you familiar with that?
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A
I'm not. I'm not.
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B
So Aphantasia is where you can't visualize things when you close your eyes. So there's like a classic test which is like, close your eyes and picture a shiny red apple. And some people can close their eyes and see literally like a photograph of a red apple. Other people, it's a kind of blurry image. For me, it's nothing. And so in my. Right. In my book writing, all of my scenes start with dialogue between characters and then I have to go back and flesh them out as well. How would those people be acting in that scene? How would. Because. Because I will. I can really clearly imagine the conversation and the feeling and the emotion in a dialogue between two people. But then I have to go in and add the body language and the facial expressions and the. How would this scene. There's times where my partner's seen me just like, stomping around the living room because I'm trying to imagine physically how someone's going to look in an argument. Because it's not. It's not there when I close my eyes. So being able to work on projects where they're dialogue first is.
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Yeah.
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It's so easy for me because I don't have to think about that. But it does need to be there in terms of the intensity of the emotion and the tone in the voice and the pacing of the conversation. So it's. Yeah. I love. I love writing it as a screenplay. I can't. I can't imagine doing it any other way.
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A
Yeah, it's. That. That's really interesting. I didn't. I'll be totally honest with you. I didn't know that was a thing. So.
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B
Most people don't.
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Yeah.
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Because you can't see. You'll never be able to see what other people can see.
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Yeah.
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And so even when you have a conversation with two people about it and you try and explain it, you. You just can't. You can't put yourself in the other person's shoes when it comes to their brand.
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A
Yeah. So is. Is working in like. Like with audios. I mean, that sounds like a perfect fit then, because as you say, so dialogue heavy, so what you. What you can hear and less about what you see. So does it. So does that. Essentially. It's like. It's like a perfect fit then, is it?
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B
It's great, yeah. It's just gravity more towards the things that I do like. And there's not at the moment, though, there's nothing that I'm gravitating away from. So that's the tricky thing is I'm still only one person with a limited amount of time, so. But yeah, it's great. It's really good. We've been. We've been working together for maybe six months now and we have some really fun stuff in the pipeline. So. Yeah, that's. It's great. I'm really enjoying it.
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A
Yeah, that's fantastic. So as I was going to ask, you actually sort of really just touched upon it at that last bit. How has your experience been with it? Is it somewhere that you, you know, you look forward to producing more content there? Like, are you enjoying this sort of style, this community as well? Because the community on it is huge and incredibly generous with their time and with that, you know, praises and things.
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B
Yeah, it's been great. It's really fascinating, that sense, because I've been a Quinn listener for. I. I joined in, like mid-2022, so a while, like, I've been there a while.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I've seen creators go. I've seen a lot of new creators come, which is fantastic. I love seeing the way that that platform is growing and how it's becoming a. More at the. At the time, like nobody else I knew in my personal life at least, was listening to Quinn. But, yeah, there's an incredible community of people that are involved in creating the work on the platform, creating content off platform that helps to promote the creators. It really is an amazing community and I've made a lot of really nice friends through it as well. So it kind of felt like a good fit to write a book about a voice actor.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I was really mindful of, like, I didn't want it to be fan fiction. Not that there's anything wrong with fanfiction, but I. I wanted it to be a commercial book and, you know, because I'm doing all of this myself, so everything I do has to be a business decision.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And. And I think it was smart because it brought me loads of readers who already were familiar with audio erotica. But also in turn, I've been able to introduce loads of my readers to Quinn. And that's been really amazing as well, to see the kind of journey that it's taken those people on. So, yeah, yeah, it's been. It's been really great. I can't. I can't. There's no downsides. I love it.
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A
That's so wonderful to hear. It's so wonderful. I'd love to know more about your approach for writing for Shane, specifically, because when you're writing for a person, you know, you know who's going to act, you know, his sort of personality or his, you know, the way that he typically tends to perform things, does that change the way that you approach a story, knowing who's going to be performing it?
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B
It kind of. I guess it does. What's really amazing about Shane is because of his acting background, he has such a big range. He could do anything. He could do anything that I throw at him. And I feel confident that he could do it because he comes from the romance audiobook world. What's also really nice is that we have a huge genre to play with, so it's still kind of early days for him. He's only been on the platform for three months maybe at this point. And so we initially started, like, looking at different kinds of tropes that would work in a story, different kinds of dynamics. So his more famous work, I would say, perhaps, is where it's really kind of like m. Dom stuff. It's kind of possessive. It's a little bit more dominant and growly and aggressive. And that's what his listeners love. But they also love the software stuff as well. And we're not just creating for his existing fan base, but also for the rest of the Quinn listeners and for new people to the platform. And that's what I really like about Quinn, for all of the creators on there, is that they don't have to come with just one thing. They can try lots of different things. And when it comes to writing books from a business perspective, a smart thing to do is write a book, see what the reception is like. If there are side characters that people are invested in, maybe you write a sequel, maybe you write a series, and that's the same with Quinn. So we have lots of ideas for things that could be two or three parters, and it's really fun to go in and see the comments that people leave. And I think so far, everything. Everybody's asked for a part two. So that's really fun because you. You've done theory stuff as well. So, you know that like, you can kind of engage with the community and be collaborative with them as well in terms of saying, okay, well this, this one worked really well. Everybody really liked it. Everybody's asking for a part two, so that's what we're going to work on next.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And. But in terms of, like, him as an actor, he's great. There's not, honestly, there's nothing I could throw at him. I don't think that he would handle.
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A
Yeah. So what is your, what's your process? So how, how long does it take you to form like an audio? And. But like, what does your sort of. I want to really ask you what a typical day in the life is like, I suppose, like, are you working on projects simultaneously? Are they at different stages? Are you a person who appreciates just one thing at once? Like, how. How are you? Where are you on that spectrum?
- [26:44]
B
I'm always working on. I would say I'm always working on two books at the same time and then I'm always working on two to four audios at the same time that are in different stages. So we have a really tight production process that is. That works really well for us now. So I will write a script a week and then Shane will kind of bank them and then he's got a day that he maybe records too. And then they go into post production and then because of the heat, you know, he's like me. He's always working on a load of different projects. He's a workaholic like I am. And so it. We don't want to ever be like right down to the wire getting something delivered. So we're kind of building up a bank of stuff so that it's just, it feels like a nice and easy process. And we've got time to deal with edits and we've got time to deal with script changes, if there are any. Or sometimes we have a little back and forth and spitball on an idea for how a dynamic might shift between two different characters. Or he wants clarification on something. There's no, there's no set day. What's funny about it is because he's in LA and I'm just north of London and so he will often, like send a voice note before he goes to bed. And I'll be getting up and making like a kid's packed lunch to go to school and just listen to a voice note first, like, you know, sense check on something. And. And I really like that because my brain doesn't switch off and there are, you know, Other conflicting demands in my life. So we can, we can just work when we need to work on things, which is fantastic. And then when audios are edited and produced, then they'll come back to me for a review and then back to Shane for a review as well. And then we can kind of see if there's any changes that we want to make. So it's like a full production schedule that works really nicely for the three of us. We work with a fantastic guy based in Brooklyn called Rob. He does sound effects. He is amazing. Again, anything we throw at him be like, yep, challenge accepted. And I think we mentioned it earlier, but you know, sound effects really, really add to the listener experience of an audio. You're really good at your sound effects. You know when you had your. All of your car effects in the commute.
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A
Oh yeah.
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B
For like driving and indicating. That was so good. It was really, really immersive and I think that makes a big difference. So it's really fun to be able to work as part of a team and finesse those things and get them right.
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A
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more with that. Specific one was I just bought a one of those rode mics that you see them all the time on social media, clip on and I just wore one on a hat very similar to this, just on the peak and just went for a drive.
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B
That's so smart because in all of this work nothing beats the actual sound of what it is that you're trying to convey. So you know, you could have sat and tried to figure that out for hours at a desk, but you're right, just hop in the car and go for a wee drive. Yeah, that's perfect.
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A
So are you. So with this being like a well oiled machine and you know it needs to be because of the, you know, demanding schedule with everything else that you've got going on, everyone else that you know that the team's got going on. Are you a person who works better with a routine? Are you a creature of habit?
- [30:03]
B
I would say no. Like it's really tricky because I have kids so everything is evolving all the time. You know, your routine changes. I have. The school day is all mine for writing, so I try to cram as much as possible into that time. But also sometimes it's kind of crunch time on a book and I'll be working till midnight every night getting it finished or I'll be getting up early to work on it. It's no. 2. No two days are the same because the writing is never the same. So the work is never quite the same. The same. And also, when you work as an indie author, it's not just about writing. It's so funny because I. The. The first year that I had books out, I was really like, embarrassed to say to people, oh, I'm a writer or I'm an author. And I've gotten over that, you know. You know, it's just like sometimes it's just you feel. You feel a bit embarrassed to explain to people what it is that you do. And yeah, I'm totally over that. But I think next year I feel like I need to start telling people that I'm a publishing company because you have to write the book, you have to sort. You work with all of these different partners for covers and content. And then I have a PA that I work with who's fantastic. And then I'm also managing a team of beta readers and all of their feedback. And then you have to sit down and think about, how are you marketing this book? What. Let's get it listed on all the relevant platforms. How am I going to get this in front of the right readers? What keywords do I need? So it's. Writing is actually a really small part of it. And there'll be some times where most of the day is just spent sat on my phone making social media content, like batching that and getting that ready and that. I'm sure it doesn't look like work when I'm just sitting on the, on the sofa in my pajamas, just on my phone all day, but. No, it is work.
- [31:52]
A
No, it really is. And we were chatting just really briefly, just before we started this, about all of the different hats that one has to wear nowadays. I was. This sort of leads me to a question I was going to ask you, but is it. Have you seen or like, how. Have you. What changes have you seen in terms of like, traditional publishing versus indie publishing? Because I don't think that many folks quite. May quite understand the amount of work it takes to publish something yourself. And, you know, for many of the things that you've just mentioned, that the marketing, the beta reading that the, you know, everything that you have to do. I mean, really, I'm trying to think of a, of a, of a way to sort of phrase this, but I just kind of want to know your overall experience of like, dealing with all of these different parts.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah, I suppose, yeah. It's interesting because I used to have a really snobby view of what self publishing was. Not snobby. An uninformed view of what Self publishing was. To me, self publishing was like an old guy in the pub who's written a book about trains and here's a copy and it's £40 and he won't leave. You know, like that's what I thought self publishing was. He's got a garage full of books that he's trying to shift. Yeah, no offense to people who write books about trains. It's not that at all. And when I, when I first started writing a book, my intention was to go down the route of querying, finding an agent. An agent then sells your book to a publisher, you get your book deal, so on, so forth, you're in the machine. And so I did query for a while and I got some really great feedback from some agents, but nobody, I didn't get snapped up the way that you see some other people. But then also there are people who query for years and years and years before their books get snapped up. And I am way too impatient at that point. I knew that book was going to be a series. And I approach everything that I do with a really experimental mindset. So everything that I try is to see, okay, what works. How did you know, what went well there, what can I shift and do a bit better next time and go from there? So for me doing it myself just, I had, I did have a light bulb moment with that because I looked at a lot of other romance authors that I really admire and I was trying to figure out who their publishing companies were. And then I realized a lot of these people have self published and some of the bestselling traditional books, books that you can go and find in a bookstore started as a self published author. So it's not like, it's not binary. You can, I could do this for a while. I could still get an agent, I could still get a book deal and go down that route. Equally. I have indie author friends who are pulling, you know, 50k a month from their books, from their sales and they're doing that themselves. And they would never ever get that from a traditional book deal because a publisher will say, well, you can release one book a year and they maybe release four or five. So there are, there's pros and cons on both sides. But for now I'm really, really happy being able to do things myself at my own pace and having all of that control. What's really nice now that I'm three years into it is being able to open up a little bit and work with other people in terms of, I have been working some really Amazing artists over the last few months to get some character art made for my books. I have got, like I said, I've got this fantastic pa. She's based in Pennsylvania. She is so much fun. She gives me the best feedback that she's also, like, really, really motivating to help me kind of keep on track with certain things, which is what I needed. And then that also frees me up with more time for writing. So there's. Yeah, it's a really. It's a really mixed bag, but I love having the control. And collaborating on stuff has been really great. But it's really interesting to me when I hands up when I finish a script and I hand it off to Shane and then I'm sitting there going, oh, what? I don't have to work on that now. It's not finished. But I'm kind of waiting for someone to come back to me. And I haven't had to have that experience for a while in terms of the limbo. But it's never limbo for long because there's always the next thing to start working on.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah. Do you like that? Like, I mean, I suppose because there's different ways of approaching it because there's. I myself, I'm a little bit of a control freak with things. So, like with audiobooks and things, you work with the team, but on quitting audios, it's usually just myself. And I remember and even that, the collab that I've just recently done, I did find myself wanting to be, like, sort of hovering over every aspect of it. But then on the flip side, when you do get those projects where you just say, okay, I've done my little bit. I'll see you later. Let me know if you need anything. And I don't. I can't make out. I can't work out which one I quite prefer. Have you had. Yeah.
- [36:42]
B
How do you both. Right.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah.
- [36:44]
B
I could work all one way or all the other. Yeah, I definitely prefer to be in control of stuff.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah.
- [36:51]
B
You know, I have friends who've written incredible books and they've gotten a book deal, and then someone turns around and says, we want to change the title. And I would really, really struggle with that. Or you need to change the main character's name because this other big book just came out and they've got the same name, and I would struggle with that, too. So I don't like being told what to do when it comes to my work, but equally when it comes to collaborating, the final product is stronger for having done that. And it's really nice being able to kind of bounce ideas around and come at different perspectives on things and then figure out exactly what it is that the way forward is.
- [37:30]
A
So one of the things that we get, or I get asked about, I have this horrible habit of saying we when it's just me doing this. But one of the questions that I most frequently get asked for through this podcast, but then also through, like, social media and stuff about Quinn is advice for those looking to begin writing audios for Quinn. And I can't really give a great answer for that because my route was. Was very sort of different, and I just went. Because you must get asked this a fair amount of time, like, for people wanting to produce audio, for wanting to, you know, write their own stories and submit them to creators and things. I just wondered if you had any sort of thoughts, advice, tips on if one came to you and said, I want to start writing audios for Quinn, or maybe even, you know, wanted to start writing erotic audios or whatever that may be, what would you say to that person?
- [38:22]
B
I think it probably starts with listening to a lot of audios from a lot of different creators who have different styles, because there are so many different storytelling styles on that app. And then thinking about how you have that conversation, you know, like, learning the craft of writing a screenplay is probably a really smart baseline in terms, because, you know, there are scripts that are just speaker dialogue, and they're just line, line, line, line, line. And. And some people can work really well with that. But I think understanding it as a more fully formed thing, as a screenplay, is probably a really smart thing to do. And there's. You know, when I remember when I was doing TV production, and a lot of the time we would read screenplays while we were watching episodes of TV or, you know, and then you can see, like, how that story is structured and how the dialogue is laid out for each character. Because I think, especially if you're writing for someone else, you need to make their job as easy as possible. There should be no doubt in the narrator's mind of what kind of emotion they're holding when they're going into certain lines. And so as a listener, when you listen to audios, you can tell, oh, this character is moving from pissed off to kind of turned on in this dynamic. This is the line where you realize that the flip has switched between these two. Flip is switched, switches flipped. I don't know. Yeah. And so I think that is a really, really good thing to think about is how you convey the emotion. Through the dialogue, because you don't have the kind of signifiers that you do in writing fiction, like he sighed or he grunted. You know, you need to be able to put those noises into the dialogue and into the script so that your narrator can express that through the way that they speak. Because it's not as simple as Shane saying, what are you doing here? You know, that's not. That's not how it comes out. So. And, you know, it's a. It's. There is a real craft to doing it well, I think. And. But, you know, anybody can give it a go. That's the. That's the most amazing thing about this queen community, is that it's been opened up for other people to get involved as writers. And I love seeing all the different collaborations that come out and the work that people do together and the way that people take certain tropes or certain dynamics or certain tags and put their own spin on it, because ultimately, it's all. It's all sexy stuff. But there is. You know, you can tell these stories 100 different ways. So I think sometimes the best feedback is probably just to just to give it a go and get started and treat everything as an experiment. You learn as you go with everything.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah, I think that's. I think there's often such a fear of failure that folks can often talk themselves out of it when really they need to sort of think, well, I will. I will be not as good at an aspect that I haven't even, like, attempted yet, but only so that I can get there on the next one or get, you know, improve on the next one. I think that's such an important thing. Yeah.
- [41:36]
B
Yeah. In the indie publishing world, we kind of have this approach of, like, 95 done. And if you are trying to get everything to 100 perfect before you release it, you're going to work on something forever and ever and ever and ever and not learn the lesson from that book and that release and the readers that you can then take into the next thing. So, yeah, night, like, go aim for 95. 95 is really good.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah.
- [42:05]
B
If everybody had a 95% good sexual experience with a Quinn app audio, then that would be fantastic.
- [42:15]
A
Yeah, I like that. I like that I might steal that one. That's okay. To finish us off as we. As we. As we grow. Close to the end of the show, I have a few broader questions to help our audience get to know a little bit more about the holy behind the words. Does that sound okay?
- [42:32]
B
Yeah.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah. So what is a challenge that you're currently facing.
- [42:38]
B
Oh, just time, time, time, time. In the run up to Christmas, I have an audiobook coming out, a new book coming out, another book that I'm kind of simultaneously working on scripts every week. Summer was crazy. I've barely finished anyone else's book for weeks. I really, really am working hard right now so that in December I can just hopefully relax a little bit more and just put my feet up, eat some cheese.
- [43:10]
A
Oh, yeah, I'm with you on that one. When you are able to put your feet up and eat some cheese, what does downtime look like for you?
- [43:20]
B
Oh, my gosh, I don't know. I never, My brain never switches off. You know, I'll be. I'll be like waking up at 4am with an idea and quickly writing down in my notes up before it disappears. I think, you know, I do. I love to get outdoors and like, you know, such a cliche to like be like. I love to go for walks in the woods. I do. I just don't like prioritize it. I love going to the gym. I got really into weightlifting a couple of years ago and that is so. I'm just obsessed. It's so fun. It's so healthy. It's so, it's. It really like fuels my creativity as well. If I've been to the gym in the morning and then I come back, you know, everything about the day makes much more sense. It's the getting to the gym bit that's the tricky part. But once you. And then I think I'm really lucky that I have really amazing friends in my life at this point. And I'm. I live in a place that I really love. So often downtime is just like popping out for coffee, see who we're going to bump into. We have an amazing microbrewery nearby, so we're often there at the weekends, just catching up and living life. It doesn't sound that exciting on paper, but it's pretty, it's pretty good.
- [44:34]
A
It's all that you need. It sounds golden to me. What is a piece of advice that you'd give to yourself 10 years ago?
- [44:43]
B
Oh my gosh, what was I even doing 10 years ago? 10 years ago I was working in the charity sector. You know what, just, just keep doing what you're doing. Because I, I was working full time as a digital project manager. I had my celebrant business on the side and I was just doing that thing of like gravitating to more towards the things that I loved and away from the Things that I wasn't enjoying. And, yeah, I think just. Just that can't go wrong.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah, that's good advice. What is. This is, by the way, just a caveat to this. This is the most hated question of the podcast, so I do save it to last. Feel free to ignore it completely. But what do you wish that you were asked more?
- [45:28]
B
That is a really tricky question, and I can understand why people don't like it. I think, for me, what I like to ask other people, so I probably wish I was asked it more in turn, is what, like, a really, really big dream looks like for me as a writer. And so I don't believe in kind of shying away from lofty goals. So I. This time last year, I would never imagine that I would be doing this Quinn stuff. And that's great, but that means that I'm really curious to see what the next 12 months looks like, what the next five years looks like. There are so many more books coming. Obviously, every author's dream is that one of their books gets picked up and made into a film or a TV show. That would be incredible. I would love to be. Yeah, just. Just really doing the author thing and keeping it going and making it as exciting as possible and connecting with as many readers as possible. Because the. The readers and the listeners are the thing that make all of this work worthwhile. People say. People always say, write a book for yourself. Write for yourself first, and that's fine. But when you've created something and you've put it out into the world, and then you get to see what other people think of it and they like it, oh, my God. There's no. There's no better feeling than that. So, yeah, that's a roundabout way of answering your question.
- [46:44]
A
That's a really good one to ask. I'd say that's a really good one. I must say that I got asked this. Someone asked it back to me after I asked it maybe 15, maybe. Yeah. But 20 times I asked that question, and then somebody once asked it back to me, and I had nothing. I could not think of a single thing. And he was, like, looking at me going like, it's your question, dude.
- [47:07]
B
I know you've got to be able to answer these yourself.
- [47:12]
A
So, finally, just before we wrap up, have you anything in the calendar? I know you have a lot of things coming up immediately, but have you got anything in the calendar that you were excited about that we can share in this excitement?
- [47:26]
B
So the Can I Tell youl Something audiobook is coming out on the first of November, as we are recording, I'll be about to go offline and do a narrator announcement. So by the time this goes out, it will be public knowledge that. Can I tell you something? Has been produced by East House Productions and is narrated by Evelyn Rose and Adam Gold, and they have both done the most incredible job. I am obsessed with it. It's recorded in duet. It's so, so good.
- [47:54]
A
Yeah.
- [47:55]
B
And then the sequel to that book, which is the brother's story, is called see you next winter, and that's going to be out on November 7th. And that is a kind of festive friends with benefits. They only ever hook up when they're on holiday in the mountains, and then they go their separate ways and they say, see you next winter. And then he stops coming back, and it completely changes their dynamic. And then this winter, he is back, and he wants to make this winter last forever. So.
- [48:22]
A
Wow.
- [48:22]
B
I'm really, really excited to see how that one goes. The initial feedback from Beta readers has been that people have been very upset and very horny at the same time. What more could you want out?
- [48:37]
A
There you go. What else is there? That is amazing. And best of luck with the announcement, by the way, as well. People are gonna go crazy. It's gonna be amazing.
- [48:45]
B
I'm really excited.
- [48:47]
A
Well, that just about does it for this episode of the Audiobook Club. All of Holly's socials and links and the links to everything that we've spoken about will be in the show notes for those who wish to take a look, as well as more information on Amplify Audiobooks, who very kindly sponsor this podcast. Holly, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you so much for making us a part of your day.
- [49:10]
B
Thank you so much for having me. It's been great to take a break from the writing to talk about the writing.