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The Autism Little Learners Podcast
#186: It's Not Defiance, It's PDA (with Casey Ehrlich) Encore
00:48:16
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- [00:00]
A
When I say that you need to listen to today's episode, I'm not lying to you. I had the absolute honor of talking to Casey Ehrlich about autism and pda. If you haven't heard about pda, you need to. It's being talked about more and more in the autism and education community and PDA stands for pathological demand avoidance. Be sure to listen to today's episode to learn more about what PDA is and and what you can do as a parent or educator of young autistic children. Hi, I'm Tara and this is the Autism Little Learners podcast. I am a speech language pathologist with a twist. I've run my own communication based classroom for over two decades and I'm so excited to share actionable tips and strategies strategies for supporting young autistic children. My goal is to help you feel more confident and successful when teaching your autistic child or students at the early childhood level. If you are ready to learn some tried and true strategies that really work, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Today I have the absolute pleasure of introducing you to Casey ehrlich. She's a PhD, a social scientist, parent coach and educator and the CEO founder of At Peace Parents and is a leader in the first peer reviewed studies of PDA in the United states. Casey brings 15 years of work experience and expertise in social science methodology to help parents and therapists understand, understand how to connect with and accommodate PDA autistic children. She specializes in teaching parents and therapists practical skills in the home or clinical setting to accommodate neuroception driven demand avoidance and nervous system differences through creative techniques. Her original research as a social scientist was conducted on post conflict reconciliation, social social capital, Trust and Trauma in Columbia, South America. She has served more than a thousand families raising autistic PDA, autistic ADHD and traumatized children since 2020 and is also raising a PDA autistic son. So welcome to the show, Casey. Welcome Casey Ehrlich. I am so happy Casey to have you on the Autism Little Learners podcast.
- [02:45]
B
Thanks, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
- [02:49]
A
And you really specialize or focus on such a hot topic right now and that is pda. Can you tell everybody what PDA stands for?
- [03:00]
B
Sure. So I just want to do a little caveat which is my expertise is actually more in parents and their experience with pda, but I'm happy to talk about PDA as an entity. So pda, what sort of the like most used term is is pathological demand avoidance but especially among PDA autistic individuals, many of them prefer pervasive or persistent drive for autonomy because autonomy is really at the root of what activates the nervous system.
- [03:38]
A
That makes total sense. I have never heard that before. So thank you for giving me that little nugget of insight. And what does PDA look like in children?
- [03:50]
B
Yeah, so it's. It's a big question. Generally, the way that I define it when I'm working with families is a survival drive for autonomy and equality that consistently overrides other survival instincts like eating, sleeping, hygiene, toileting, and safety. So you might see that in the moment where, you know, the most clear example I can give is one from my own life. But many parents might resonate with it, which is like, when my son was younger, he would get near the street and I would do what any mom would do, which is like, hey, be careful. Stop. Don't go into the street. And it would actually accelerate him towards oncoming traffic. Not just like elopement, but like, actually moving towards the danger, not just not listening. Right. Or there's parents I've worked with who have had children who, you know, they say, don't go in. Don't. Don't go in the water. And they, like, fixate on going into a river or a lake right when they're told not to. And I also have an example of my son doing that around a fire. Don't touch the fire. And we. The more we said, don't get near the fire, the more he would actually try and get in the fire. And we didn't understand it at all. So that's a very clear example of the survival drive for autonomy which is happening, like, from the survival brain. So the child isn't even necessarily conscious of what's going on. It's a survival response overriding safety. But it can also, in accumulation especially, like, over time, override things. Like, they may perceive losses of autonomy and equality in a classroom. And, like, they're told to do things, maybe they even comply, but they feel their nervous system activates within their body. And over time, that survival drive for autonomy and accumulation will override their ability to do something like sleeping or eating.
- [06:03]
A
Right?
- [06:03]
B
So like with my son, when he was about four and a half, he stopped eating largely. But there's other patterns that parents can observe. And the thing is, what's so complex about this is that one child, like my child, didn't have what I call a stickiest, basic need of sleeping. Like, he stopped eating, but he was. He didn't have A big toileting regression. He was still resisting sleep but not moving into a non 24 hour sleep cycle. And he was very explosive. And then you might have another child his age who eats fine but has moved into a non 24 hour sleep cycle and actually shuts down rather than being, quote, oppositional or defiant. So if you look at those two kids, the causal mechanism is the same, the root cause and then the causal mechanism of like perceived threat and then nervous system activating. But the way it's showing is super different for the two kids. So it can be hard to. Hard to parse. But because I've worked with hundreds of families, I've been able to see patterns and understand the logic, what's going on.
- [07:23]
A
Super interesting. And it made me think of a student from many years ago. This just kind of popped up. He was my first kindergarten student ever. And he's autistic. And, you know, I was getting to learn and know what I was doing as a speech language pathologist, as an educator with my autistic students. And he was very like, like you said, if we told him not to do something, it was like this loop. And he. The not, he heard, do it, do it, do it. You know, kind of what it seemed like. And his mom, it was funny because he's only probably at that time, first grade, his mom gave this advice. She said, if he asks you if he can have a beer, don't say no. Just say yes, you can when you're 21. Not that he understand that, you know, that's. It was kind of a more hypothetical example. But it made me think differently on how I approached him with things we introduced to him.
- [08:30]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. The mom had good intuition there.
- [08:33]
A
Yeah. And it makes me wonder, I wonder if he had, you know, PDA going on or. Because it would be very extreme if we told him not to do something.
- [08:43]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:44]
A
He would be the type, like you said, that would maybe run faster towards the street if we told him not to go in the street.
- [08:51]
B
Yeah.
- [08:52]
A
So. Yeah. Really, really interesting.
- [08:55]
B
And then there's another. Oh, sorry. I just want to add like a less extreme expression. Like the. What the behavioral expression is not just like basic needs or safety is maybe they comply. Right. Like maybe they do the thing in the classroom, but then they go over and like destroy another kid's thing. Or they speak back to the teacher like, you're stupid, stop talking. Right. So there's. It's called equalizing behavior, which is a reflexive behavior to get back to that place of safety where it's actually like they've. They perceive they're below or don't have autonomy, and so they want to equalize, but sometimes they overshoot with controlling or, quote, defiant behavior.
- [09:44]
A
Yeah, it makes sense, especially in the context of former students popping into my head right now of things that I've seen and experienced, and it's kind of putting a name to it or a different lens to it now. And I know before we hit record today, we talked a little bit about PDA and young autistic children. Or maybe, if you can, what does PDA look like in autistic children? Not necessarily young at this point. We'll talk about that in just a minute.
- [10:20]
B
Yeah. So there's normally five characteristics that I encourage parents, teachers, therapists, whoever, to look for, but they don't necessarily apply to every single kid. So the first is the survival drive for autonomy or equality, or it can be the overshooting of, like, they always need to be above other kids or you, like, more in control. The second is the behavioral expression of the disability, which is equalizing behavior, which can look like, you know, it can look like tearing the leaves off your plants. It can look like, you know, starting to bother another kid in the classroom. But it's. It's auto. It's automatic. It's like a nervous system response. So when you say stop, it's like they double down. Right? And it can feel, if it's not escalated to the point of a full meltdown, it can feel manipulative, oppositional, aggressive, rather than like something that's actually related to the nervous system. The third thing is not necessarily applying to every single PDA kid, but it's very frequent in terms of how often you see this pattern, which is high masking, meaning, like, they appear one way in the classroom, for example, and one way at home. So one thing a teacher or therapist might hear is, you know, they might be a joy in the classroom and completely, quote, fine. And then their parents report that they're like, you know, tearing things off walls and screaming and like a feral animal. And you might not even be able to imagine the child like that, that was my son. Often the masking ends once they hit burnout because they sort of can't internalize their threat response. The third, or, sorry, the fourth is the cumulative and fluctuating nature of the disability. So, like, sometimes these kids can appear fine or there may have been a period of their life where they appeared somewhat typical, and then they sort of hit a tipping point. And all of a sudden, you know, it seems like they have an autistic regression, right. Where it's not necessarily a loss of skills, it's that their threat response is so activated they can't access the skills they have. And then 4 5th is the constant need for signals of safety and undivided attention, which often gets overlooked because. And, and it's paradoxical because it's like, well, if they want freedom, choice, independence, autonomy, shouldn't they be able to go play independently and do their thing on their own? Like you give them freedom, but then they're bugging other kids or they have like, you know, for a parent, this looks like you can't do anything else in the home because they're like, mama, mama. And if you don't pay attention, it starts to escalate into equalizing and then panic attack. Whereas for a teacher, it might be, you know, the constant need to be engaging one on one with you or they start destroying things, trying to leave the classroom, you know, but you. They're often the kids who don't get an aid because they are high masking and they often do appear, you know, not disabled by their social communication skills. Right. It's like not what's preventing them as much as the nervous system activation, which looks like bad behavior or out of control or shut down or like severe anxiety. Is that making sense to you?
- [14:20]
A
Totally. It's so eye openening too. And how when you have PDA and autism and it's so complex, it's to figure out what's causing what or, you know, it's.
- [14:35]
B
Yeah, I often think about it like this to help people who are very well versed in autism. Right. It's like you have social communication, you have sensory, you have executive functioning, and then you add the PDA thing of like the nervous system response to perfect perceived losses of autonomy and equality. I think many professionals are used to. If the kid has an autism diagnosis, we're thinking first through social communication, then maybe sensory and executive functioning, whereas. And then probably not even thinking about autonomy. Maybe for a PDA kid, we want to flip it. We don't want to get rid of the other stuff. But maybe like first think through the nervous system and autonomy inequality, then sensory, then executive functioning and social communication. Because everything is affected by the nervous system regulation.
- [15:34]
A
Yeah, well, and in the classroom a lot we work towards getting kids to be independent, but that's a little bit different than autonomy, you know, like. Yeah, being able to do a task or an activity on their own, it gives them autonomy in a way with that task, but allowing them to choose what they want to do. I think a lot of times we say give choices, give choices. But when it comes down to it, I don't know how much that actually happens, you know, because there's always parameters on it, like first this, then this or that kind of thing.
- [16:14]
B
Yeah.
- [16:14]
A
Self directed.
- [16:16]
B
Yeah.
- [16:18]
A
And it makes, it makes me think of the student I had last year that you and I were talking about before we hit record. And he was young, he was just three. And you and I talked a little bit about how you said PDA can be really maybe difficult to decipher at that young age, the three, four year old age. Because so many kids that age have meltdowns, tantrums, that kind of thing. Right. They're in the no stage.
- [16:50]
B
Yeah. Or they're, you know, or they're still breastfeeding or their parents are co sleeping because there's little kids, you know, it's, it's still hard to determine. Or they're not potty trained. So it's like, how do you look at the basic needs stuff?
- [17:06]
A
Yeah.
- [17:06]
B
Doesn't mean you can't. It's just a little more challenging.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah. And I think as you talked about that, the, the student I had last year really popped into my head because he, you know, was melting down, had aggressive behaviors, but it was really related significantly to any demand. And not necessarily we're telling you what to do, but anything that was almost perceived as a demand.
- [17:37]
B
Oh, absolutely. Perception. Yeah.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah. The way we would approach him or it's like he knew, he knew we were in charge and he wants to be in charge and, and it was really, really difficult. But I was kind of going over all of your awesome Instagram reels and I.1 came up that I really, really. It spoke to me with regards to this student in particular. You talked about strewing and that. It feels like that's what we ended up doing. Just kind of in a. Intuitively. Yeah. He would come in and we'd have his favorite things out on the table, things that we've seen him engage with on his own. So play DOH and some different things like that. So he'd make sure those were out on this main table so he could come in, wander, and then kind of land on whichever one was more appealing to him that day. No one told him you need to go to the red table, anything like that. He would go. And then one of the staff that had naturally a more positive relationship with him or connection from the start, she would go sit near him and not really say anything, but Then he would kind of start to show her something like that he made with the play. D'oh. And she kind of take his cue. Is that what you mean by strewing?
- [19:02]
B
Yeah. So I did not invent strewing. I learned about it, actually through a text thread with some moms here locally in Michigan years back who also had PDA kids. But I looked up the who coined the term, and it's Sandra Dodd from the homeschooling literature. I mean, blogs. And so the way she defines it is like leaving things out so that the child can naturally gravitate towards their interests. The way I define it for parents or individuals working with PDA kids is a little deeper in the energetic sense, which you touched on of, like, naturally, the teacher who had a better or more positive relationship. So I think about it as, like sensory cues, like visual cue or even an auditory cue where you're like, saying something to another teacher that the child can engage with autonomously or not. So, like, part of it being supportive of the PDA kit is that the parent or the teacher not have a lot of attachment or expectation around the stru. Because then energetically, it's like the child perceives like, oh, they want me to do this, so I'm not going to. Right.
- [20:30]
A
It rejects everything you have on the table.
- [20:33]
B
Yeah. So, you know, it sounds like the teacher you're describing did I think three things that I teach intuitively. So the strewing that you mentioned, the sitting close by without initiating conversation or trying to talk about it when the kid wasn't ready, that's like providing signals of safety with the nervous system with presence, but not with expectation, not initiating conversation. So reducing spoken language, which can be a demand or perceived loss of autonomy, and then responding when the child initiated. Right. So those are the three. So she did strewing, nervous system signals of safety or CO regulation and a communication accommodation, which is like, don't go over and be like, oh, you got the play. D'oh. How is it? Do you like blue?
- [21:34]
A
Well, we all tend to. It must be our natural instinct and comfort level. I think we talk all the time about less talking in general, not just with pda, but we need to talk less because we go into that teacher mode and quiz and ask, and it's just too much a lot of times. And we can get so much more information about all students by really taking time to just be quiet and observe. And I did this challenge last year. I can't remember who had it on TikTok, but it was a provider working with Autistic kids. And she said, I challenge you to go a whole session or just a work session, even if it's 10 minutes and ask zero questions.
- [22:21]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [22:22]
A
And you know, then we can comment a little bit, narrate maybe what they're doing. And I think with this student that I think is a PDA kid that I had last year, this wouldn't have worked with him because like you said, the perceived, like I'm still trying to be in charge or in control, but other kids, I'll, you know, oh, jumping, jump, jump, jump, jump. And then I'll just be quiet and watch and that kind of stuff. It's really, really, really hard for people.
- [22:51]
B
Oh yeah. It's like hard on an existential and spiritual level because it's like the practice of non attachment and it's like you're
- [23:00]
A
doing nothing and you feel like I have to do something to help make progress. But sometimes that something is backing off the demands and doing nothing and even not. Yeah, even if they're not a PDA autistic kid. This is good advice, I think for a lot of kids that at least the kids that have been in my classroom.
- [23:28]
B
Yeah, I will say so. I have a five year old. My PDA son is nine. He just turned nine and my other one just turned five and they're very different kids. And I'm so, I've trained myself not to ask any questions and reduce speech so much that like recently I've been noticing like, I'm not even asking William how his day was. And when I asked him, he actually wants to tell me. And so I like to remind myself like, oh, did you have a good day? What was your favorite part? Because I'm so used to making that shift the other way. After being a mom who was like, how was your day? What'd you do? And my, like, stop talking or growling or throwing something at me.
- [24:15]
A
You trained yourself to parent in this way and then you now you have to make a shift and be like,
- [24:20]
B
well, this one needs.
- [24:21]
A
The other child needs something different. Oh, that's such great insight on that too though.
- [24:27]
B
Yeah.
- [24:28]
A
When we're talking pda, like, what would your first advice be if someone was suspecting, okay, my autistic student or autistic child, I think maybe they're showing traits of pda. What would you do?
- [24:48]
B
Well, I mean, I think something you named is like the best first step, which is pausing and taking a step back and observing and experimenting with, with other ways of doing things like strewing or waiting until they Ask a question. Providing autonomy.
- [25:12]
A
Yeah.
- [25:14]
B
You know, signaling safety without words. So I draw a lot on the trauma and poly polyvagal theory literature about like really being aware of tone, facial expression getting low to the ground. I'm sure you do this already intuitively as a teacher with three to five year olds. But you know, one thing my son would say when he was younger is like, are you mad at me? Or why are you yelling? And I would have a neutral facial expression and a neutral tone. And so, you know, I really had to shift my understanding of like, oh, his brain is actually interpreting me as threatening if I don't deliberately signal safety, which means like movement in the upper half of my face, crinkled eyes with a genuine smile, moving my forehead, making sure my tone is not too assertive or high volume, allowing myself to have intonation, like a sing songy voice, which can seem like it's, you know, kind of annoying to other people, observing. But also that your kid might be too old for it. But like he actually needs a lot of that sing songy to indicate to his survival brain, which is subconscious, like, you're safe.
- [26:36]
A
Yeah.
- [26:37]
B
And then I always sit on the floor when I'm talking to him, even now, so that he perceives himself as equal to or above me and preempts the threat response. And then declarative language. I would recommend to any. I'm sure you've heard of that book already. Linda K. Murphy's Declarative Language Handbook is like awesome for PDA kids too.
- [27:01]
A
Oh, good, good. I'll link that in the show notes for people too. I actually haven't heard of that book.
- [27:08]
B
It's great. I mean, right away, it's. Instead of asking questions like you mentioned or imperatives like get your shoes on, you know, it's time, it's time for lunch. All the things that we do naturally if we're trying to structure a family or a classroom making observational statements. Right. And so you, I think the example you use jumping. Jumping is actually a declarative sentence which is like, oh, I noticed this guy's jumping. Right.
- [27:45]
A
Yeah.
- [27:45]
B
It's just an observation. Or like you can get your shoes on.
- [27:50]
A
Yeah.
- [27:50]
B
Instead of get your shoes on or you know, you can be at that table or that table instead of pick a table.
- [27:58]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [28:00]
B
So it's really shifting the language in a, in a way that can signal safety to the survival brain.
- [28:09]
A
Yeah. And it makes me think too about visual supports and how, you know, maybe in that scenario if you're directing them and saying, do this, then this, that's definitely not going to work. But if I had a visual support and was showing other kids and they overheard that or it was nearby or, you know, I'm wondering if that would kind of work too.
- [28:34]
B
I think it depends on the kid. Like a lot of PDA kids, depending on where they are with the relationship or if they're more burned out or younger, they reject the laminated charts altogether a demand. But, you know, I know that from my work with parents and my own son, there have been phases where like he's chosen. He's like wanted to make a chart, but he wants autonomy over how to do it. And then when he's done with it, he's like, we're not doing this anymore. You know, like autonomy around the tool itself.
- [29:09]
A
Yeah. And I found too, even with that student last year that I'm pretty sure was a PDA kid, when I made a visual support, he would sometimes reject it. But if I had his very favorite thing on there, like, he loved King Kong. So if, if it was a visual support about needing to take a break and we would take him on a wagon ride. If King Kong was in the wagon, that would be something that I don't know. I don't know if it would distract him or redirect him or override or if he's just like, you get me? I love this. You know, what made him go with it more, but something with that special
- [29:55]
B
that falls into like a framework, a mini framework that can be helpful. This is for parents, but anybody can use it. It's the four S's, which are like the four regulatory states for a PDA child 14, which is another safe nervous system. So like that one on one engagement consistently screens, which I know is like controversial. This is an observation, not a suggestion. I'm just like, if they're not on a screen, they're gonna need one of these other three. Safe nervous system screen, sensory, intense, novel or dopamine provoking activities or a special interest. So. So King Kong was the special interest and probably novelty also, which gave a little dopamine because it's like new and different.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah, the, those four things. Like that is him.
- [30:53]
B
Yeah.
- [30:54]
A
I wish I wouldn't had this information last year, but we kind of had to do deal with everything intuitively, you know, And.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah, and often I'm just providing language to parents who have intuited it or teachers who intuited it, but they've doubted themselves because it feels like you're doing the wrong thing.
- [31:14]
A
It feels like you're doing sometimes. Some days it would feel like you're doing nothing.
- [31:19]
B
Yeah.
- [31:19]
A
Except just making sure that they're safe. Because in your mind you're like, I'm not getting any work done, but this is the work for them, you know?
- [31:31]
B
Yeah. Safety. Felt safety.
- [31:34]
A
I have a membership for teachers and parents of young autistic kids. And I have this framework in there and I talk about these four areas, regulation. So that has to be number one, because if you're not regulated, none of these other things are going to happen. Number two, the second part is connection. So we have to have build a positive connection. Number three is routines, predictable routines. And then number four is teach. And I'm like, we can't get to teach unless we have these other things in place. And it, you know, PDA is a little bit different with having that autonomy first. But it sounds really familiar, the things that you talk about.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah. With PDA kids, I often think of instead of routines, rhythms. Because a routine can present a loss of autonomy, even if they choose it. Like, I don't know if you've noticed this in the classroom where a kid loves a routine. And then it's like one day comes and they're like, I'm never doing this again.
- [32:40]
A
Yeah. Yes.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah.
- [32:43]
A
I bet a lot of people can relate to that too. You know, the consistent thing we used to say, the consistent thing about autism is that it's inconsistent. You know, you can't take it personally. It. It's just gonna be like that and it's okay. And probably when PDA is in the mix, it's a little more inconsistent too.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah. And not taking it personally is a key skill, I think.
- [33:06]
A
Huge. Huge. Because as an educator or parent, you're going to burn out if you take it all personally.
- [33:13]
B
Yeah. And it's really not about. It's not about you. It's often with PDA kids, they are the, quote, worst behaved around the safest person because their subconscious brain perceives like, I can let it out as fight flight. I don't have to go into freeze. But it feels like, why am I the one who's being targeted or abused? Especially for moms.
- [33:37]
A
Yeah. That has to be just really difficult to handle mentally and physically sometimes too. Yeah. So can co regulation techniques help? Or is that perceived as a directive? Or if it's just kind of we're near and we're breathing, maybe not. Is that because we're not looking at them or.
- [34:00]
B
So I think it's always an empirical question. And I know you know this because You've worked with hundreds and millions of kids. Like you know there. No, it is no hard and fast rule where like no PDA kid would like that. But I know from my own son and working with all the families I have that often those techniques activate the threat response or the suggestion of them.
- [34:27]
A
Yeah. Okay. So that's something for people to keep in mind. If some of those co regulation or self regulation techniques are consistently backfiring, what would. The other way. Would you just let them have space or.
- [34:42]
B
So what kind of situation are we describing? Because like the way I think about it. The way I think about it is like focusing on your self regulation can support the co regulation of the PDA kid or without any suggestion. So like.
- [35:02]
A
Yeah.
- [35:03]
B
And sometimes the PDA kit, if they're truly activated or more close to their threshold, even you taking deep breaths will be like, stop doing that.
- [35:12]
A
Yeah, I can see that. I'm sure that I.
- [35:15]
B
That has happened because there's an energy around. I'm trying to teach them in this moment.
- [35:20]
A
It's like they know when you're like, I'm just going to take a breath because it's very obvious that you're trying to direct them. So maybe keeping your body so your vibes aren't all up here super high strung, just keeping your body and your voice calm and not being overly, I don't know, exaggerating what you're doing because they might perceive that as. She's trying to get me to do that.
- [35:48]
B
Yeah, I think so. If you could give me a scenario, I could give you like.
- [35:53]
A
So like you're saying at the early childhood level, some things like a student drops to the ground and doesn't want to move on. That might just simply be communication of like, no, I don't want to do this, but if we have somebody that like this little guy last year, a scenario might be he perceived that we were directing him and he wanted to leave the classroom. And if somebody stood by the door to try to at least see if he would engage in something else and then he dropped to the floor and he's kicking and you know, having a meltdown.
- [36:41]
B
Yeah.
- [36:41]
A
And then people around are trying to, you know, oh, could we get him to take deep breaths? Should we turn off the light? Like trying to go into all those regulation techniques, you know, grab.
- [36:54]
B
They backfired.
- [36:55]
A
Yeah. He just keeps escalating.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah. So, okay, so the first part is decision making. Right. Which is like. And that's different for a teacher who has multiple. No, dozens of kids. Right. For, for me As a parent, like, I would like, for example, if both. If it's time to go to school and my younger one and he go to the same school and my PDA kid had. Or the younger has a huge panic. I call them panic attacks to get myself into the mindset of like, it's not under their control. I like that, especially for the PDA kid, because it's not, you know, I. We might drive them separately and I might stay or let you know, in your circumstance, let an aide or a parent take the kid out if they needed to leave the classroom.
- [37:47]
A
But it's funny, that's what we started doing because, you know, we can't block them from going out the door. We don't have a lock or something. You know what I mean? Someone will get hurt, including that child. If we're physically trying to make that not happen. Yeah, yeah. And we can't, we don't want that. We can't do that. So what we ended up doing. And then maybe this will help you with this scenario too. What we ended up doing is we would just follow him out and he usually wasn't running to like go outside. We would follow him out and then we'd be like, oh, you know, do you want to get in the wagon? Or he'd go out. We had a wagon just outside the door and he'd get in it on his own.
- [38:30]
B
Yeah.
- [38:30]
A
And I think he was indicating to us, like, let's just do a couple laps. And we did that many times a day. And we had to really move around the adults in our classroom and how we worked with other kids to support someone being able to go out with him. But that helped a lot because then we didn't have that, like you said, panic attack at the door.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah. So the first thing you did was you provided him a sense of autonomy which can immediately start to de escalate what's making his nervous system go into fight or flight. So not every classroom can do that. Right. If it's a teacher who doesn't have enough AIDS or whatever it is, I think like reducing speech, focusing on like those subconscious signals of safety in your own face. You know, I often, like, if they're having a full blown panic attack, I'll sit on the floor within eye shot. But not. And this is if, like no one's in danger, because I would go into risk mitigation, which is a different skill. But like, if it's de escalation where no one's at risk of harming themselves and I would just Sit on the floor and try and emit a sense of safety and love and just wait, you know. And then when I start to see him coming down, I would say, you know, I'm so sorry this is so hard right now.
- [40:05]
A
And empathy. I love that you said that you would sit on the floor, because I think adults natural response is you stand and you monitor. And, you know, that's. I can't remember the exact words you use, but the equalizing, maybe.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah, it's like preemptive preempting. Like, you don't want to pile on another. Like, because as soon as you're physically above them, it's activating that same pathway of like, someone's above me.
- [40:37]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [40:38]
B
So, yeah, So I get. I. Yeah, I'll sit on the floor. I mean, in terms of, like, to support the parent or the teacher. I do a lot of visualization, like, where and when I teach this. It's like, you can do it any way you want. I personally visualize, like, my grandmother who's passed with, like, her papery cheek around, like, against mine, enveloping me in light. And so I can emit light to him without saying anything. But, like, I think it can be helpful for people to draw on a spiritual tradition, whether it's like Jesus or the Buddha or whatever. It is like, embracing you because it's so activating for us when we're hearing the sounds of pain and suffering, not just sadness or frustration, but actual, like, the same sounds you would. And movements you would see if a child were being harmed. Right. So of course you're going to be activated. And then, you know, the little trial air balloons are the, like, I'm not going to leave you, or, I'm right here, or, I'm so sorry. And you know, my son used to be like, in response, and that would be my data point of like, okay, he's not there yet. And then, you know, once he started to come down with his personality, a lot of PDA kids, they like the novelty and humor. So I would place blame on whatever triggered it of, like, who made that play doh. So hard to roll into a ball? Like, who would design it like that and like, sort of place the blame on an inanimate object. And then sometimes my son was sort of like, laugh a little and then, you know, repair. I think the mindset shift at the end is like, what do we want to do as parents or teachers? Tell them not to do that, why they can't do that. Why was disruptive, why everything's okay. And it's like really refraining from trying to teach and just focus on, like, getting them a popsicle or, you know, like what you would do with a kid who had a seizure.
- [42:58]
A
Right.
- [42:59]
B
You wouldn't be like, next time.
- [43:01]
A
Yeah. Or fell down and got hurt and scraped their knee.
- [43:05]
B
Yeah.
- [43:05]
A
That you, the way you just described all of that, you brought it down to such a human level and compassionate level, and I think.
- [43:15]
B
Thanks. Yeah.
- [43:17]
A
I mean, really, we. One of the big things that I stress on is compassion over compliance, and that's right there. So thank you.
- [43:26]
B
Yeah, that's. That's the way with the PDA kids, like, always.
- [43:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this has been so amazing. And I could sit and pick your brain for like, four more hours because it's so good. But can you let everyone know where they can learn more about pda? And I, I saw that you also have an offering for parents. I'm trying to find my notes on it right now, but you can tell me where you and any. If they want more of you.
- [43:59]
B
Sure. If they want more of me. And then I'll tell you other resources. So I am at Peace Parents. So at Peace Parents on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock and YouTube.
- [44:14]
A
Okay.
- [44:17]
B
And then we offer a free master class. So it's. And it's for anyone. It's. It's designed for parents, but teachers, teachers, therapist, anyone can take it. And it goes through those five characteristics that we spoke about. And then there's, I think, five PDF handouts. So, like, if you want the handout of the five characteristics. So that's totally free. It allows you to opt into my newsletter, which I send every Friday or not. Hashtag autonomy. Right. And then I run a signature program three times a year in a cohort format, which is three months, called the Paradigm Shift Program. And then that's me. I also have a podcast at Peace Parents. And then two of the main places that I think are wonderful, sort of like Official institutions around PDA are the PDA Society in the U.S. uK and PDA North America here in the U.S. and then I also think it's important and supportive to look to PDA autistic adults. I work with parents of 3 to 17 year olds. So, you know, when parents want to know, like, what's the adult experience? I usually point them in the direction of those accounts or testimonies. So we have Demi Burnett, who is on the Bachelor, who identifies as. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:58]
A
I've been following her. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:00]
B
She makes great videos about, like, the lived experience of a PDA Autistic woman. Rabbi Shoshana is a new one that she's a great resource in Play We Trust. I've always liked her Tiktoks a lot. Neuroclastic has some good writings from PDA individuals. We have a coach at At Peace Parents who's PDA identifying and has four PDA kids. Her name is Kendall Damoshek and I'm surely missing a million cool accounts, but these are just like places you can go to to learn the perspective of the adults. And those are have been some great sources of insight as well.
- [46:52]
A
Awesome. I'm gonna send so many people your way to your master class because I know I'm gonna take it because I want to learn more too. I just think this is coming so much more into awareness in the realm of the autism community. I'm excited to learn more, even more than here today. So thank you so much for being on here and I'm sure we'll chat again sometime in the future.
- [47:19]
B
Yeah, it was great. Thanks for having me.
- [47:22]
A
I'm sending a big virtual hug your way because you just finished another episode of the Autism Little Learners Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. If you have had success with any of the strategies that you learned about in this podcast, I would love to hear from you. Send me a DM on Instagram or Facebook. Autismlittlelearners don't forget to grab your free visual support stick starter set by going to autismlittlelearners. Com visuals and always remember to find the good in every day.